The Copywriter Club Podcast

For the 123rd episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, Kira and Rob change things up a little bit and go “guest-less”. After a short discussion about what’s going on in our own copywriting businesses, we talk about we’re working on and what we’re most excited about—with special attention paid to our in-person event coming up next month. Here’s what we covered in our discussion: •  the pain of juggling two businesses •  getting back into things after taking a step back from client work •  what we might be testing on LinkedIn this year •  taking a Quantum Leap •  the genesis of The Copywriter Club In Real Life •  when it doesn’t make sense to make a Quantum Leap •  the people we’re seeing make Quantum Leaps right now •  why we’re “all in” on The Copywriter Club •  a few tips for making your own Quantum Leap • why you have to join us at TCCIRL this year To listen to this entire episode, click the play button below. You can also add it to your favorite podcast app. And if you’re a reader, you can scroll down for a full transcript.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: The Copywriter Think Tank Michal Eisikowitz Kirsty Fanton Linda Perry Derek Hambrick Raven Douglas Robert Lucas Justin Blackman Sorcha MacKenzie TCCIRL19 Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Intro: Content (for now) Outro: Gravity   Full Transcript: Rob:   This podcast is sponsored by The Copywriter Underground. Kira:   It's our new membership, designed for you to help you attract more clients and hit 10k a month consistently. Rob:   For more information or to sign up, go to thecopywriterunderground.com. We do not have an intro for this episode. I guess we're just going to wing it. Kira:   Is that your intro? Rob:   I think that's our intro. Yeah, why not? Hey, everybody. Hey, Kira. It is Episode 123 of The Copywriter Club Podcast, and it's just you and me today. Kira:   Yeah, it's just us, just more quality time together. I love it. Rob:   That's right. Kira:   I just want more time with Rob, all the time. Rob:   Which is hard to do, because we live far away, and we both have separate families. Yeah, we squeeze in what we can. But I have a question for you, Kira. It's been a long time since it was just you and I on a podcast episode, last summer. What has been going on? What's changed in your business over the last few months? Kira:   That's such a big question. A lot. I think in that last episode I was talking about how painful it was at the time, and I think the pain is still kind of there. It's just changed. I've made a lot of improvements to my business, but I'm still juggling two businesses, so I think if you're juggling two businesses and a family, it's just going to be a bit painful. But I am transitioning towards The Copywriter Club and focusing more time and energy on The Copywriter Club. I'm just not fully there yet. My time is still very much split. I probably had the busiest fall ever with my copywriting business, which was probably silly, just taking on a lot, building out a team, doing all the things I kind of told myself I wasn't going to do, and then I just did it all and took on a lot. Now I'm trying to trim that and just focus on building this business and this community that we're both so excited about, but making that transition is very messy for me. That's it. Rob:   One of the things I love about you and your businesses is that you're just a doer. I mean, a lot of times you'll say you're not going to do stuff, and then you just go ahead and do it, but you have this vision of what you want to accomplish and the people that you want to work with, and you go out and you make it happen. I think that's really admirable, even though sometimes it squeezes you for time, and it's hard to accomplish everything sometimes. Kira:   Yeah. Well, that's a very positive way of looking at it, thank you. But no, I think that that's what I do really well, and that's also what will hold me back and drive me crazy, so that's also what I'm working on, is just looking at how I operate and really questioning just a lot of things in my life and business. I kind of view this upcoming year as just a year to question, just question everything, because I think it's really easy just to fall back into what comes naturally and your habits, and even your strengths that could end up holding you back from where you need to go. What about you, Rob? What's been happening for you? Rob:   My business hasn't changed drastically. We launched The Copywriter Underground at the end of October, and because of the work and the attention that I've tried to play there, I've backed off on taking as many clients as I did through the previous nine months of that year and the year before. I've done less client work in order to support what we're doing in The Underground and The Think Tank and all of that. That's not really a major change, but my business has definitely changed. I'm to the point now where it's like, ‘Okay, time to get back into client mode because I need to be able to pay the mortgage and support my kids and wife,’ and all of that. Yeah, so my focus this year is primarily, like you were just saying, on doing new things with The Copywriter Club, and we've outlined a few things that we want to accomplish this year that we haven't done in the past, which is kind of exciting, but also just getting back into the habit of working with a couple of clients each month to make sure that there is money in the bank. Kira:   Yeah. You said it's not a big change in your business, but it has been for you, because you have focused so heavily on building the infrastructure for everything we're doing in The Copywriter Club, the membership, event logistics for the event coming up in March, so much of that, and it would not happen without you. This isn't me thanking you, although I should thank you every day because you do so much for The Copywriter Club to build it, but I think that's a pretty big change, because you have taken a step back from the client work for a couple of months to really do the hard work, the not so ... I mean, it's the messy work, too, to build what we're building. I imagine that your day looks very different with what you've been doing over the past few months, compared to what copywriters typically do when they're just working with clients. Rob:   Yeah, definitely. Yeah, and there have been a lot of back-end type things to figure out, to make sure that they're working. It's been a great learning experience. It's tough. It's been fun launching The Underground, and getting to know the almost 200 copywriters that are hanging out in there has been awesome. It's been a great group. Yeah, it's been good few months, and time to get serious again about moving forward with my clients. Kira:   What does that look like for you, getting serious about moving forward with clients? What do you have to do to get that engine running again? Rob:   A big part of it, I'm reaching out to clients that I've worked with in the past and just touching base, making sure that there are things that I can help them with, letting them know the types of projects that I'm working on, so there's that. Another thing that I ... I'm going to say it publicly, so this is going to make sure that it happens, is I'm going to be trying to do more outreach on LinkedIn. Kira:   Me, too. Rob:   Not necessarily like reaching out, pinging clients and, ‘Hey, glad we could connect, and now I've got this thing to sell you,’ but trying to put a little bit more content onto LinkedIn, doing what Michal Eisikowitz has talked about and done. She's somebody that we obviously admire a great deal, what she's been able to build with LinkedIn, so doing more of that. Kira:   Yeah. I was never a fan of LinkedIn, but I've got to say, LinkedIn is the place to be right now. I feel like it's just where ... I hear about so many people finding great leads and just publishing great content, and I just never thought it was a sexy platform. I just kind of felt like my people weren't there, but I feel like they've made updates, and it's the place to be. I haven't- Rob:   It is sexy, though. It still is sexy. It's kind of- Kira:   It is not. I don't know. Rob:   It's kind of like the nerdy little brother of social media. Kira:   I don't know. Rob:   But it's definitely a place where a lot of businesses are. Kira:   Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'm also focusing on ... Well, Michal's going to help me build out my profile because I haven't touched it in years, so I have a bunch of messages in there. My profile looks ridiculous and so amateur. She's going to help me fix it up and figure out how I need to play in the LinkedIn space and what makes sense. Rob:   That's awesome. Kira:   Yeah. Actually, she'll be speaking at our event in March, TCC In Real Life, which we're definitely going to plug as much as possible throughout this conversation, because it's our second annual event, and we're taking a leap and going bigger with this event and just want it to be a huge success. She's going to be one of the speakers, because she has exploded her business over the last year or two and done incredible things, and LinkedIn has been a really helpful platform for her to build her business. But she's just one of the copywriters we know who's just excelled in such a big way, and she's done it through hard work and just being very strategic and saying no to a lot of things, and also juggling four kids, too. I'm just amazed by her. Really excited about her. I'm sure we'll mention some other speakers, too. Rob:   Yeah. You're jumping right to the event, but let's back up for a second. Kira:   I just jump. I just jump. Rob:   You were saying that we're taking this leap thing,

Copywriter and book strategist, Bryna Haynes is our guest for the 122nd episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. Bryna helps “change makers” make their change with books that start movements. And she would know. She’s the author of The Art of Inspiration, a best-selling book about writing inspirational books. Here’s a look at we talk about in this interview: •  how she went from hair stylist to freelance copywriter •  how she found out that being a good writer isn’t enough to keep a business afloat •  her writing process and how she finished her book •  how to connect to influencers who can help boost your business •  how to know what ideas to pursue (and how guiding values help) •  what you need before you make a pivot •  all the different kinds of copy she worked on and how finding clarity helped her find a new niche •  what pivoting has looked like in her business and where she’s headed •  how we make quantum leaps in our businesses (and what that really means) •  using your “reticular activating system” to change your behavior •  the importance of “big” dreams and how to achieve them Ready to get this episode in your earbuds? Click the play button below or download it to your favorite podcast app. And, as always, you can scroll down for a full transcript.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Linda Joy Lisa Tener Bryna’s website Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Intro: Content (for now) Outro: Gravity   Full Transcript: Rob:   This podcast is sponsored by The Copywriter Club Underground. Kira:   It's our new membership designed for you, to help you attract more clients and hit 10K a month consistently. Rob:   For more information or to sign up go to thecopywriterunderground.com. Kira:   What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes, and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That's what Rob and I do every week at The Copywriter Club Podcast. Rob:   You're invited to join the club for episode 122 as we chat with author and book strategist Bryna Haynes about writing books that start movements, making a big pivot in your career, what quantum physics has to do with goal achievement, and putting yourself out there. Kira:   Bryna, welcome. Rob:   Hey Bryna. Bryna:   So happy to be here. Hi Kira. Hi Rob. Kira:   Bryna and I are working together currently, and as we've sat down and talked through Bryna's past and what she's working on and events she's planning this spring, I was just like, ‘We have to get you on the show.’ Because everything that you're teaching and talking about and thinking would really help the copywriter community. I'm really excited to dive deeper into what you teach today. Let's start with your story. How did you end up where you're sitting today, and what are you focused on today? Bryna:   Well I'll give you the short version. When I was about 26 I was working as a hairdresser, master stylist, color expert in Providence. I loved that career because it taught me how to talk to people. Prior to that I was really, really shy, and not a very good communicator. I really learned a lot about relationships in that job. But I was also very bored. I felt like it was time to return to my dream of writing as a career. With no prior experience, I don't have an English degree, I didn't have any idea what I was doing, I quit my lucrative salon job and dove into the world of freelance writing. I quickly found that just being a good writer is not enough to keep a writing business afloat. I had to really do a lot of learning in a very short period of time. It was really the best move I could have made, because it was totally sink or swim. I didn't have any way to go back. I didn't have any way to make excuses for not doing the work and learning what I needed to learn. I also happened to make some really fortuitous connections. One of them with the boutique publisher I still work with today, and one of them with a book coach who immediately put me on her referral list for editing clients. Between the two of them I really fell into, without planning it or even thinking that I would go in that direction, I really fell into the world of personal development, self-help, inspirational books. That's where I've been working for over 10 years. That's kind of the short version of the story. But it's been a really incredible journey in that I got to meld two of my biggest passions, writing and personal development, and really work with some amazing influencers in the industry. Work on an individual level with women who are out to change the world, and doing a damn good job of it. Rob:   Bryna, there's a ton of stuff there that we can talk about. Before we get into all of the inspiration and the cool change that you’re making, can we maybe talk about just process for a minute or two? Specifically the process of writing a book. I know there are a lot of people who are copywriters who want to write books. But they get started, or it's hard. Tell us about your writing process and how you actually got it done. Bryna:   Absolutely. I developed a process that I have applied to my own work, to my clients' work over the years. It's really just a process of clarity. In order to tackle something as big as a book, you really have to know not only what it's about, but why you're doing it. Not only why you're doing it personally. Like, ‘Oh, I want to write a book to share my ideas’. But why you're doing it in terms of serving your audience. What is your reader actually going to get out of this? What is the point you want people to take away? You have to get so clear on that that you can come back to it over and over and over through the process. It's really like writing shorter form copy, and also different. Because with a book you have so many opportunities to explore your concept in depth. I think that's where people get really tripped up. They follow these tangents down various rabbit holes, and they lose sight of the core purpose of their book. I find when I'm editing, when I'm coaching people around their books, it's really about bringing people back to that core why. What are we teaching people and why are we teaching it? How do we bring this whole crazy discussion back around so that we get back to the point? If you can do that in every part of a book, if you can do that in every chapter, your book will make sense. It will have a trajectory. It will have a solid outcome. As opposed to just being a giant mishmash of information that people may or may not get something out of. Kira:   Gotcha. Okay, so before we talk about what's happening now, I do want to dive into your past. Your time as a hair stylist. What surprised you the most about people and human nature from that time, and working so intimately with humans? Bryna:   I think I really learned that we're really, we're more the same than we are different. I know we hear that a lot. People say that a lot. But it really is true. We really do want the same things. I kind of in my career there put a short, a little bit of a spin of personal development on it. I wasn't just making art on people's heads, although that was fun. It was really about helping people to show up as their best selves. I think that when I was ready to make a transition, it was because I felt like I wasn't able to go deep enough with people in the capacity that I was in. I was able to give them a surface level experience of showing up as their best selves. But really, deep down I've always wanted more there. I've wanted more for myself. I've wanted more for the people I care about. But really, we're just all after the same things. We really want to feel valued and valuable. We really want to have connections with other people. We really want to feel good about the way we're walking through the world and what we're creating. Sometimes that gets distorted and we lose sight of it, or we're doing it in a way that's not in full integrity. Or we're not really connected to those aspects of ourselves. But in the end we all really do want those same things. Kira:   You mentioned during your writing career that you connected to a coach who referred you to a bunch of clients. You connected to these influencers, it sounds like early on. That really catches my attention because that's a struggle for so many of us. It's, how do we connect to those influencers who are going to send us great leads? Do you have any advice to copywriters who might be struggling with that? Bryna:   Absolutely. The first is, always follow your instincts. Because even though someone appears to be exactly what you want, until you really meet them and connect with them you don't really know if it's an energetic fit. Be willing to go and do things that are a little bit out of the ordinary. I met both of those amazing women, their names are, Linda Joy, is the publisher and Lisa Tenor is the name of the book coach I used to work with. I met both of them through a meeting of the Holistic Chamber of Commerce in a little town in Rhode Island. Lisa happened to be there I believe because she was presenting. It's so long ago, I'm having trouble remembering the exact details. But that's where I connected with them. I went because I was a guest of a friend who was a member of that chamber. Not because I necessarily had any interest at that point in being involved in that world. Because it was a lot of healers and massage therapists and coaches. I had no idea at that point in my life what a coach even was, let alone what they did. I just went as Dave's guest, and I ended up connecting with these amazing people. If you have an intuitive hit to go somewhere or do something, even if it doesn't make sense at first, follow that.

Copywriter and entrepreneur Nikki Groom joins Rob and Kira for the 121st episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. Nikki is a high achiever who isn’t afraid of trying new things (like moving to America to start a business) so we asked her about her life as a copywriter and the new things she’s doing in her business. Here’s a look at what we covered in this fantastic interview: •  how she became an advisor, coach and marketing specialist •  why she moved to America to further her career •  what she does to prove her haters wrong •  what it took to get traction when she first started out on her own •  how she “forced” herself to quit by booking so much work she had to •  when she knew she had to double her rates (and how she did it) •  what she did to book herself out for three months at a time •  the mistake she made with her one-day package •  how Nikki has expanded her business beyond copywriting •  when you know you need to say “no” to an opportunity •  what she did to make a bigger impact (and get paid more) •  how we as copywriters can make a bigger impact with our brands •  why numbers are the wrong thing to focus on as you start to grow •  what she’s done to grow her own influence •  the difference between being a freelancer and a business owner •  what she does to develop great relationships • what the future of copywriting looks like to her Bonus... we asked Nikki a couple of questions about her podcast and what works when potential guests pitch her. These questions aren't included in this podcast, but you can find Nikki's answers in The Copywriter Underground. To hear all of this and more, click the play button below, or download it to your favorite podcast app (we like Overcast). You can also scroll down for a full transcript.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Marie Poulin Nikki's website Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Intro: Content (for now) Outro: Gravity   Full Transcript: Rob:   This podcast is sponsored by The Copywriter Underground. Kira:   It's our new membership designed for you, to help you attract more clients, and hit 10K a month consistently. Rob:   For more information, or to sign up, go to thecopywriterunderground.com. Rob:   What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That's what Kira and I do every week at The Copywriter Club Podcast. Kira:   You're invited to join the club for Episode 121, as we chat with brand strategist, copywriter, and storytelling expert, Nikki Groom, about creating personal brands that create a big impact; how storytelling humanizes our business; what it means to lead with empathy; and how copywriters can increase their income and impact without sacrificing their relationships and lifestyle. Kira:   So, welcome Nikki, it's great to have you here. Nikki: Thank you! I am so excited and happy to be here. Rob:   We're glad to have you. Kira:   We met in your mastermind that we'll talk about. So let's kick this off with just this story about how you ended up as a brand messaging storytelling strategist, creative coach, leadership consultant, all the things. How did you get there? Nikki: Yes. Well first, I think it's worth mentioning that there have been many, many iterations when it comes to the many job titles that I could attach to my work. And that's chiefly because, over the course of several years now, I've just learned so much. And actually it's kind of been this ongoing battle like, am I this? Am I that? And I'm kind of ... even though I do have all of those labels on my website, I am kind of allergic to labels, cause I'm like, ‘Well, it doesn't quite fit in this box. It's like this thing, and a bit of this thing.’ But my entry into the world of work back in the day was kind of a fluke. I was 22, fresh out of university, and looking for a job. I'd done some part-time work in the past for the UK subsidiary of a global manufacturer. And a friend told me that she thought they could use a marketing manager. So, I approached them about it, and they went for it, and I found myself kind of thrown into this role that most of the people at the company at that time thought I was too young for. Now I look back and I'm like, gosh, I was only 22. I was a little baby. And not qualified enough for it. But what they didn't know is that I always rise to the challenges put in front of me, and this was a challenge that I'd chosen. And so, over the months and years that followed, I poured my sweat, and my heart, and my soul into learning everything I could about marketing. And if I didn't know what something meant, which was often, I researched it. I sat through endless webinars. I watched what other people were doing really well, and I adapted it to fit our business goals. I guess you could say I was kind of scrappy, and I wasn't afraid of going all out to get us where we needed to go. And so, after about two or three years in that position, I remember my boss at the time said, ‘Nikki, the marketing's better than it's ever been.’ And that just meant the absolute world to me. You know, it's the biggest compliment. In a way, I guess, it was the validation that I needed to prove my haters wrong, but I feel like I wasn't even really thinking about them at that point. I was just really focused on what I was trying to do. So, after about five years with that company, and back in the UK, and in that position, I kind of felt this sense of completion. Like I'd already done everything I could possibly do, I'd learned everything I could possibly learn, and I was ready to hand on the baton. I call this actually my five year itch. It seems to be quite cyclical. So I went down to London for the day, signed up with a bunch of different recruitment agencies, got offered this great job in London, went back and told my boss about it. He was an awesome boss, he was one of my earliest mentors. And he said, ‘Well, I don't think they're paying you enough, and I think that you should wait and see if something else opens up for you.’ And he wasn't to know this, but within a couple of months, the marketing manager for the US subsidiary, the North American subsidiary, sent out an email saying, ‘Hey everyone. I'm leaving in two weeks. It's been a pleasure working with you all.’ And when I read her email, my stomach kind of did this flip. And I was like, ‘Could I move to America and do that job?’ You know, basically the same job that I'd been doing. Could I take that and transfer that and do that in America instead? And, my boss was kind of on the same page. He knew that I wanted this new challenge, so he was thinking that he could send me over there for like, three months, or maybe a year, and then he could get me back. He thought that maybe that would scratch the itch. I was only supposed to go... come over for a year, but my visa was initially for three years. And at the end of each year I was like, ‘Well I'm not ready to go home yet.’ And even though I'd left everything and everyone I'd ever known, it was... I just had this sense that there was sort of this ...there was so much more potential for me here to really do what I wanted to do, and take things to the next level. And so, after five years in the States, I felt that familiar itch again. And, I had been paying a lot of attention. I'd really thrown myself into social media, like all the different networks, at a pretty early stage. So, for example, I remember how Obama heavily leaned on Twitter to get elected, back in 2008. And I was like, ‘Hmm, what is this platform? Let me investigate.’ And I discovered tons of really incredible people, and influencers, and people building online businesses. And, I've always enjoyed to write since I was a kid. I've loved that piece. And I saw all these people starting these blogs, and then building businesses off the back of them. And I was like, ‘I want that. I want to try that.’ So I'd been kind of paying attention for several years. And, I finally reached the point when I knew it was time to take on my next challenge, which was starting my own business. Kira:   Wow. Okay. A lot to dig into. So, I want to start with the haters, because you just kind of mentioned that you wanted to prove your haters wrong. And I was like, ‘What? What haters?’ So, can you just tell us more about your haters, and how that helped you ultimately grow in your position? Rob:   Yeah, seriously, who could hate you? Nikki: Well, you know, I look back ... I was really shy growing up. And so, being quiet and introverted, and shy, people often underestimate you. And so, when I was about 15 I think it was, I had gone to get some work experience at a local newspaper. Loved it. Got to shadow reporters. Wrote a whole bunch of articles that were actually published in the newspaper. And I remember that the report that the editor wrote up at the end, basically said something to the effect ... you know, I got all these boxes checked, and ... you know, great, great, great, great. But they said, ‘Nikki will never be a journalist, because she's too quiet.’ Something to that effect, those weren't the exact words, I probably suppressed those. But I remember that it floored me to hear this feedback, because at that time, I did actually go on and do lots of little bits and pieces of journalism here, there, and everywhere with like regional newspapers, and radio stations, and stuff like that, until I graduated. And, at first it floored me, but then it fired me up. I was like, ‘I'm going to show you. I am going to show you.’ And actually, right before I got this job as a marketing manager, I worked as a reporter for my local television network. I wish there was still some footage,

Copywriter and Copy Coach, Amy Posner, returns to chat with Kira and Rob for the 120th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. (Yeah, it’s #120 even though the intro says “special un-numbered episode.”) Despite our numbering flub, this episode is loaded with great advice from an expert copywriter with serious coaching chops. We talked with Amy about all of the following and more: •  how her business has changed from big projects to coaching this year •  the differences between copywriting and copy coaching •  the mindset shifts she’s had to make as her business has changed •  what happens in copy clinic and how it makes copy better •  the value of getting a second set of eyes on a project •  the biggest mistakes Amy sees from the copywriters she coaches •  the problem with too many CTAs she reviews •  what’s changing in sales and landing pages from the desktop to mobile •  how to establish authority with a client and conduct the conversation •  what she does to attract clients to her business •  what happens in The Copy Clinic (everything members do) As usual, it's a good one. And if you've heard Amy talk before (like at TCCIRL last year), you know she always brings her A-game. To get this one in your ear buds, simply download it to your favorite podcast app. Or click the play button below. For a full transcript, scroll down.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: The Copy Clinic Copyhackers Natalie Smithson Val Geisler Kevin Rogers Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group Intro: Content (for now) Outro: Gravity   Full Transcript: Rob:   This podcast is sponsored by The Copywriter Underground. Kira:   It's our new membership designed for you to help you attract more clients and hit 10K a month consistently. Rob:   For more information or to sign up, go to thecopywriterunderground.com. Kira:   What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes, and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That's what Rob and I do every week at The Copywriter Club Podcast. Rob:   You're invited to join a club for a special unnumbered episode (UPDATE: episode #120) as we chat with direct response copywriter and copy coach, Amy Posner about her coaching program The Copy Clinic, how her business has changed since we spoke with her more than 100 episodes ago, how to build authority and what it takes to write great copy today. Kira:   Welcome back, Amy. Amy:  Hey, thanks for having me. Kira:   Yeah. It's great to have you back. It's about time. Why don't we start with what you've been up to since you were last on the show over a year ago? Amy:  It's sort of shocking that it was that long ago. Well, I think that's a lot. My copy business has morphed considerably. I stopped taking on super big projects. I guess the beginning of this year, the beginning of 2018, I still love these really big complex projects that were 20, $30,000, lots of moving parts, a long time to complete them, but I'd usually do a couple of them overlapping. It just got to be too involved for me. It was too complex and it was too long, and I wanted to do things that were a little bit shorter and a little bit more repeatable because all those kinds of things are usually custom one-off projects. I started doing streamlining, what I was doing in terms of client projects and in the meantime what happened last year I ended up coaching The Copy Hackers Mastermind, Copy Hackers Mastermind 3, over the summer when Joanna was away and that morphed into me coming on as the co-coach for her 10X freelancer course and then that morphed into me being the co-coach in The Copy Hackers Mastermind 4 which is, I guess, we're three months into it. It's a six-month program or four months, whatever, that ends at the end of this year. From all of that coaching has come … We're private coaching because people came to me from those programs and asked for help for specific things. Then I ended up launching my own group coaching program, Copy Clinic. Things have changed just really significantly. I'm doing different work than I was doing a year ago, I guess, for the majority of my work time. Kira:   Can you just talk to us more about why this big pivot? It sounds like you were just maybe tired of those big projects which can be overwhelming, but this is a big change in your business so what really triggered it? Amy:  It's a good question. It's so funny this entrepreneurial journey, and I've been on it a long time. I just find it … At least if you stay open things change. Different opportunities are presented. You see things differently as you grow and change. I think I really wanted just a change in my work and in my lifestyle. I hate to use that word but what I realized, and I guess this is probably true for a lot of us but I work for myself and I'm my own toughest boss. I just don't give myself enough time and enough breathing space. I'm always feeling like there's something else I should be doing or ought to be doing. I realized at one point, I don't want to be living my life that way. This is not what I want my day to day existence to be, and if I don't, it's up to me to control that. It's really hard. I guess I'm a little bit of a workaholic. I'm not a perfectionist but I really like to go the extra mile. I'm trying to find what fits my life so that I can have a more sane life. I've got some different plans for that even to evolve that into the next year as I'm getting clearer and clearer. Really, that's what precipitated is wanting to have more time to do other things in life. Rob:   I want to talk a little bit about this specific move and what it has involved because I think we all have a really good sense of what the job of a copywriter entails and the things that we're doing every day, but the shift to coaching other copywriters seems pretty different. Will you tell us what are the things that you've been doing as a coach in all of these different programs that you've been working in? Amy:  Well, it's interesting. People seem to come me for two things primarily. One is for copy review like, ‘Can you look at this? Tell me if it. Does it work? What does it need? Is it strong? Is it weak?’ The other thing people that come to me for is client, what I call client wrangling. Someone threw that out, and I liked it so I kept it, which is dealing with all kinds of things client related. Everything from, ‘I helped someone this week with correspondents, with a job she's trying to land and had to finesse the conversations with her client. Other people come to me about pricing or I want to break into this copy or I want to do this kind of project. Do I have the skills? Can I do it?’ So, all kinds of things. A lot of times its client problems and challenges. It's how to be a business person in a sense. Rob:   You and I, and Kira, we've talked many, many times over the last several months and so I have a sense of what you do, with the client wrangling and some of those conversations. You even talked about it at our event. I have a sense of that, and maybe we can continue to talk about that even more deeply. Kira:   Yeah. I'm curious about the mindset, Amy because letting go of big copy projects is challenging for many of us. I mean, I'm dealing with a similar challenge. I also feel like our ego is attached to these big projects like, ‘Oh, I can take this on, and I can handle this, and if I let those go, and make a shift, and pivot, then maybe that says something about me that I can't do that.’ Did you have to deal with any mindset shifts as you've made these changes over the last year? Amy:  Yeah, I'm still dealing with it. The position that I'm in right now is not a good one. I've said yes to too many things. I just wasn't careful enough about it. I am in that mindset thing of realizing that it always comes back to being accountable to yourself because you're the business owner and it's your life and your business. I find it incredibly difficult to turn down money. I just do. I like money. I like making money. Rob:   So easy for us to say no to money, but yeah. Amy:  Yeah, right. I know. What you all do. It's really hard to do. Kira, I don't know for me if it's so much like the ego thing of landing the big projects. Maybe it would have been earlier on but the novelty of that world, but it's kind of … There's two things. One is, I really like helping people and some of these projects that show up just sound cool. They sound like they'd be really interesting and I like the people, and I want to help them. That's one piece of it. The other piece for me is that I spent so long building my reputation, and now I've got this great flow of inbound leads, so it feels like a bad business move to let go. But what I realize I've come to think of it differently. I can actually share those, help other people and that helps me in a less direct way, and that it's more like what goes around, comes around. That's my theory. I haven't put it into practice yet so get back with me in a couple few months and I'll tell you if that works. I've put some things in place for accountability that I have to hold myself to say no. I'm not taking any more projects for the rest of this year. Kira:   I love to hear more about the pivot. Your pivot is unique to you. Some other copywriters may make a similar pivot but we all at some point make a pivot in our business. It's almost like getting a promotion in the corporate world except we have to promote ourselves now. For a copywriter who's making some type of pivot, can you offer some advice as far as what has worked for you over the last year or more that you've made this pivot and then also what hasn't worked as well, some of your struggles along the way which you've mentioned a couple already.

Expert copywriter Clayton Makepeace is our guest for this special episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. If there were a list of the world’s most successful (and highly paid) copywriters, Clayton would have a place near or at the top. He’s the kind of expert worth listening to if you want to succeed as a copywriter (and especially if you want to write financial copy). Here’s what we covered in our discussion: •  how Clayton went from running a folding machine to his first copy assignment •  what he learned working in the film industry that applies to copywriting •  how he went from employee to starting his own copy agency •  the raw truth about why he became a copywriter •  what he did to improve his skills early on (and the mentors he found) •  how he went from unknown to the copywriter everyone wanted to work with •  what he did to succeed that copywriters can model today •  the storytelling secret he learned from an old coin •  where you get the best criticism for your copy (it’s not a copy chief) •  Clayton’s thoughts on how you get a prospect to read past page one •  the process he uses with his team today to create a package •  why you need a stick as well as a carrot in your copy •  why leading with a big benefit might not be the best option •  the two ways to overcome objections •  specifics versus abstractions and why one works better in copy •  when you should present the expert’s bio on a sales page •  the “bars on the beach” reason he starts working at 4 am •  the financial copywriting training he’s working on right now We knew this interview would be great the minute we booked it, but the advice Clayton shared was even better than we expected. To hear it, download it to your favorite podcast app. Or click the play button below. You can also scroll down for a full transcript.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Jim Rutz Gary Bencivenga Carline Anglade Cole Parris Lampropolous Dan Rosenthal Agora Paul Martinez The End of America Mike Ward MoneyMap Clayton’s Financial Intensive Jedd Canty Henry Bingaman Terry Weiss Marcella Allison Makepeace Total Package Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group Intro: Content (for now) Outro: Gravity   Full Transcript: Rob:   This podcast is sponsored by The Copywriter Underground. Kira:   It's our new membership designed for you to help you attract more clients and hit 10k a month consistently. Rob:   For more information or to sign up, go to the copywriterunderground.com. Kira:   What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts? Ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work. That's what Rob and I do every week at The Copywriter Club Podcast. Rob:   You're invited to join the club for a special unnumbered episode as we chat with copywriter and direct marketing consultant Clayton Makepeace about writing copy in the most competitive niches, his checklists for writing more powerful copy, what he's learned mentoring other copywriters, and how you can learn to write copy for the financial niche. Kira:   Welcome Clayton. Clayton:        Hey, thank you for having me. Kira:   It's great to have you here. It's an honor. You've been on our list. As I mentioned before we recorded, for a long time, so we were lucky to finally get you on the show. To kick this off, let's start with your story. How did you end up as a copywriter? Clayton:        Okay, well, let's see. I was running a folding machine in 1968 or 9 at a print shop in Tulsa, Oklahoma, and the print shop printed appeal letters for a nonprofit organization. One day this guy came through, his name was Richard Viguerie. He was in his forties, and it was like the second coming of Christ, and we had to clean up the warehouse for this guy. It was like a real VIP. And it turns out he was a copywriter who was writing all of these appeal letters, and he also did a lot more for us. We had the first mainframe computer west of the Mississippi by any private company to segment our file with, this is in the late 60s. Anyway, someone mentioned to me that Richard was making like $350,000 a year in 1968, and I thought, ‘Whoa!’ And all I had to do at night was just sit around and run the folding machine and read these letters that he had written. And so I figured I could probably write one of these, and I asked the head of the organization, ‘If I wrote one, would you mail it?’ And he said, ‘Well, if I like it, yeah,’ so I wrote an appeal letter. He mailed it and it worked, but I wasn't smart enough to realize I could actually make a living doing this. It was several years before I finally got back into this and it was basically in LA. We had a recession in 73 and 74. I'd been in the film industry and I couldn't get work, so I saw an ad for a small agency that needed a copywriter, and I'd had that previous successful experience, and so I applied for the job and I got it. That was how I got started. Rob:   I love that. Before we jump into the whole copywriting thing, what did you do in the film industry? Clayton:        Well, I had my own sound stage at the old Columbia Studios on Gower St. in Hollywood and I had a three-camera truck. And so during the week I would go around town and I would basically rent the truck out, and I would be technical director or director on the shoot. I had moved there because I was offered a job as a film editor on The Incredible Hulk and Tenspeed and Brown Shoe and Baa Baaa Black Sheep. A friend of mine was a producer of those programs, but I couldn't get into the union. It was at Universal Studios and they were doing affirmative hiring, and so I couldn't get into the union because I was white, so I ended up having to do these non-union gigs, like my own truck. Rob:   Interesting. Did that experience teach you anything that's applicable to copywriting? Having to sell your services and process of editing and that kind of thing, or was it just simply a totally different career and copywriting was something new? Clayton:        No, no, I think sales is sales. One of the best pieces of advice I ever heard, although I didn't follow it, was, ‘If you want to be a great copywriter, forget copywriting, go be an insurance salesman,’ door to door, learn how to handle rejection, learn how to overcome objections, learn how to persuade, so yeah, I had the gig as a used car salesman for a while, and I really was horrible at that by the way. I was really terrible. And if I ever used that as like a weather vane to see if I should go into copywriting I'd probably said no. And then another job was selling something called ‘Buyer's Club’ door to door,’ where you pay some money to join this club and then you can buy things at a discount. I think that's really good advice. We're salesmen in print, that's all we are. We're salespeople, and I think we should be compensated like salespeople, which means we should get a commission on what we sell, and it means that if we want to refine our skills, we can look at this, how long have there been salesmen? How long have there been salespeople? There are thousands of years of experience in what motivates people, what moves people, and what gets people to make purchase decisions, so yeah, I think I learned a lot from that. Kira:   I'm just curious, you mentioned your first appeal worked when you sent it out, and then it sounds like you waited a couple of years until you joined that first agency job. What happened in between there when the first appeal worked and you celebrated, why didn't you continue and create another one? What happened at that point? Clayton:        Because it was actually .. no one asked me to. My heart was in the motion picture film industry, because soon after that happened, I was offered a job as associate director on a nationally syndicated television show. So, that's really where my heart was, and I had done the copywriting thing just to see if I could do it because I thought I could. But film was my first love, film and video, and so it really took another several years until we had that big recession and there was no film and TV work in LA for me to break out and to go into copywriting. Rob:   Once you got hired onto that small agency, was it direct response type work that you were doing? Was it more agency grand type work? What were those first couple of clients like and then how did you branch out into doing your own thing? Clayton:        All right, well I'm glad I know what the next question is, so I'll not name the agency. It was a small direct response agency, basically it was a small list brokerage, and they had a franchise for one of the big list companies, a compile list company, but they also rented regular buyer lists and so forth. And the owner of the agency's reasoning was if I get a good copywriter in here, my list will work better, I'll rent more names and I'll make more money. And so I came in, came to work, but it was all direct response work and right from the get go. In fact, my first two weeks they told me, ‘Don't even come into the office, here's a stack of books, just go home and read them.’ It was Claude Hopkins, David Ogilvy, Vic Schwab, all of the masters, so yeah, I read professionally for two or three weeks, got paid to do it and then came in and started knocking out copy. Kira:   You mentioned your love for the movie industry. When did you start to feel that love for copywriting and when did you feel that spark? Clayton:        Wow, never. Basically, I was following the money. The job at Universal was $70,000 a year, it fell through. I had a pregnant wife and a two year old, and I had to make a living, and so this copywriting gig came up, and it looked pretty good. He offered me the grand amount of $15,000 a year,

Copywriter Jonnie Williams joins us for the 119th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. Kira met Jonnie at Copy Chief Live and they hit it off. We continued their conversation from the conference on the podcast and asked Jonnie about her work. Here's a taste of what she shared: •  How she survived a bad situation and launched a solo career •  The first gigs she landed and what she did to get her business off the ground •  The crazy stuff that happened at the job she left—really crazy •  How to deal with a toxic work environment •  How her business has evolved recently and the work she does •  When to jump at a new opportunity and how to know if it’s right •  Her approach to retainers and how she makes it work •  How Jonnie stays creative — the non-copy stuff she does •  How a move to tornado alley has created stress and anxiety for her •  Creating a personal network while living in a small town •  What’s working (and what’s not) when it comes to creating funnels To get this one in your ear holes, click the play button below. You can also download it to your favorite podcast app, or scroll down for a full transcript.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Ry Schwartz The Copywriter Accelerator Copy School JustSellHomes Copy Chief Live The Copywriter Underground Start.me AirStory Justin Blackman Jonnie's website (and bonus for listeners) Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group Intro: Content (for now) Outro: Gravity   Full Transcript: Rob:   This podcast is sponsored by The Copywriter Underground. Kira:   It's our new membership designed for you to help you attract more clients and hit 10k a month consistently. Rob:   For more information or to sign up, go to thecopywriterunderground.com. What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That's what Kira and I do every week at The Copywriter Club Podcast. Kira:   You're invited to join the club for episode 119 as we chat with copywriter Jonnie Williams about how her business has evolved over time, what she's done to uplevel her career, giving up on projects that don't work, and writing conversion oriented content for the personal development space. So, welcome Jonnie, it's great to have you here. Rob:   Hi Jonnie. Kira:   As a copywriter I've worked with on many projects, I told you so many times I think you're so talented and we actually got to hang out last week at Copy Chief Live, which was a lot of fun. Jonnie:          Yeah. Hello Rob and Kira, I am so thrilled to be on the podcast. It's kind of crazy because this is really full circle for me, I started out writing for podcasts and I listened to your podcast for so long and here I am, so it's an honor to be here and Kira, loved being able to hang out with you and this is a lot more comfortable for me now that we've met face to face, and thank you for the kind words. Rob:   If there's any discomfort, it's because we haven't met face to face Jonnie, so I'm …… but just carry on, yeah, just carry on without me, it'll be fun. Jonnie:          I know you Rob, you're, everyone's homie and you have the best gifts ever. Rob:   Thank you. Kira:   He's making me feel uncomfortable, so that's just normal. Rob:   There you go, that would not be unusual. Kira:   Jonnie, let's just start with your story. How did you end up as a copywriter? Jonnie:          Over the course of, I'd say probably the last eight years, I worked in two extremely toxic environments and more recently I worked at a small family owned business where I experienced and observed some pretty rotten situations and it was stuff that was kind of so horrific that it felt surreal. It was everything from sexual harassment to extreme verbal abuse and even to the violent death of a coworker who was murdered inside the building so there's a lot to unpack there. I spent nearly, it felt like every day filled with this kind of fear and anxiety that my manager would get screamed at or one of my coworkers would storm out with tears and so it was just a lot of stress and that eventually bled into my personal life. I'd watched my physical and a health basically deteriorate and my personal relationships fall apart. I'd always kind of threatened to quit regularly but I’d always find a reason to cop out because I really wasn't confident that I'd find another job that would cough up the 14.50 an hour so I stuck it out. A little under three years and after a miscarriage, a friend had handed me a Tony Robbins DVD and that was a pivotal moment in my life because it evolved into this like full blown personal development journey. I started doing some self work and listening to personal development, podcasts, reading blog posts, and started valuing myself more. So I kind of developed this awareness to this constant negativity around me and it sounded like nails on a chalkboard, I couldn't tolerate being in that building anymore. I became more distanced from my coworkers and it was kind of the norm to find me at a bar after work. One night I was there with my now fiancé and after a glass or two of liquid courage, I was kind of possessed with this sort of strange empowerment that I still can't really explain to this day. That I had this urge to drive the mile down the street, pack up my desk, and never looked back. I went with it and that was hurdle number one, was quitting the job. Hurdle two, was figuring out what I was going to do next because I just impulsively quit my job and did it without a clue of what I was going to do and where it would lead me but I did know two things. I knew that I needed to find a way to pay my bills really quickly and I'd always been told I was a decent writer, a good writer so I thought I'd live the good life by starting a personal development blog and then monetizing it and that was the dream after reading all these income reports from bloggers who made $25,364 and 22 cents a month. I thought that was the only way to monetize my writing other than a book which would take me way too long in my dire situation. I just remember how frustrating it was to go and read a description of a podcast episode when I was going through my journey and there was like a sentence or two and maybe not even that and like I really wanted to know what it was about so that ended up kind of leading me on a path to Upwork and then positioning myself as a show notes writer, podcast show notes writer. It didn't even take me two days to hear back from my first two clients who were just launching a brand new podcasts and both of them were in the online marketing space and one was more content and strategy and the other one was more transformational life and business. I learned their brand voice very well and I learned about online marketing strategy from their podcasts so they both started hiring me for more copy based projects. I remember getting hired directly from my personal landing page from one of them and like I think I teared up because he offered me like $150. That led into more podcast clients that your job's more referrals and eventually transitioned out of show notes completely to pursue copywriting fulltime. Rob:   There is a lot to unpack here for sure. First of all, I want to know what was the Tony Robbins CD that started the whole transformation, which one was it? Jonnie:          Oh gosh, I can't tell you the name of it because unfortunately, and I hope Tony is not listening. Kira:   He doesn't listen to our show. Rob:   He's one of our biggest listeners actually. Jonnie:          It was burned, it just said Tony Robbins on it and a black sharpie. Rob:   Okay, fair enough. Let's jump forward then to those first writing gigs, how did you position yourself? Like, what were you doing on Upwork, what did you say, what was the offer, for people who are just trying to get started and think, ‘Hey, maybe that's a viable path for me or to offer something similar’? Walk us through. What were the things that you did to land two jobs that quickly? Jonnie:          I wish I could remember all the granular details, but I just remember there wasn't a lot of people that were offering what I was offering and it was ... I very much kind of listed out that I was in personal development and platforming myself as someone who is really familiar with podcasts, which I was, but I think it was such a rarity for people to come across just someone who specialized. I found my own little niche, you know, or niche as you guys like to call it niche or niche. I found my own little cove and it worked out really, really well for me and if we're talking price, I had no idea what I was doing at the time. I had no idea how to price anything or what my time was worth, how good I really was but eventually I negotiated what I thought was fair at the time and we just kind of went from there. Kira:   I want to back up and ask about your story and I can't help but ask about the murder, which, if it's too sensitive to share, can you just share a little bit more details about the toxic environment and even anything related to that, how did this all happen? Because it sounds so out there and hard to believe but I know this was your reality for I think three years? Jonnie:          It was surreal and sometimes when I reflect on it, it's surreal still and to kind of give you the nutshell version of it, I pulled up into the parking lot like it was any other Monday morning, it was snowing outside it was in February, and seeing like CSI events outside, like they literally said CSI, I was like oh that's a thing, I guess. I thought it was just to show this whole time but yeah,

Copywriter and brand specialist, Sorcha MacKenzie, is our guest for the 118th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. We've admired Sorcha for quite awhile now, and have followed along as she's launched her own brand and website. We asked Sorcha about that process and this stuff too: •  her path from acting to branding to copywriting •  what her business looks like today •  what it’s like to work for big brands like Marvel and Disney •  how research impacts the creative process and brand development •  working with chronic pain so that clients still get what they need •  how Sorcha pads her timelines to give her extra time to get work done •  how she conducts the research for a brand audits and branding work •  the pitfalls of doing group research and focus groups •  how she applies the branding process to her own business •  what she’s done to develop her own brand as a branding expert •  her experience starting her own business •  how she came up with the products she offers for her clients •  her biggest struggles as a freelancer Want to hear what it's like to go from working on an Ant Man promotion to the daily grind of freelance life? Then click the play button below. You can also scroll down for a full transcript.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Sorcha’s website The Copywriter Accelerator Copyhackers The Brand Gap The 22 Immutable Laws of Branding The Copywriter Club In Real Life Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group Intro: Content (for now) Outro: Gravity   Full Transcript:   Rob:   This podcast is sponsored by The Copywriter Underground. Kira:   It's our new membership designed for you, to help you attract more clients and hit $10K a month consistently. Rob:   For more information or to sign up, go to thecopywriterunderground.com. Kira:   What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That's what Rob and I do every week at The Copywriter Club Podcast. Rob:   You're invited to join the club for episode 118 as we chat with copywriter and brand specialist Sorcha MacKenzie about working for big clients like Disney and Marvel, understanding brand strategy, the struggles she's had leaving the agency world for freelance, and why puppies make the best and worst office mates. Kira:   Welcome, Sorcha. Rob:   Hey, Sorcha. Sorcha:   Thank you for having me. I'm thrilled to be here. Kira:   Yeah, we're excited to have you here. We know you well through both The Accelerator and The Think Tank program that you're participating in. But I feel like we're going to get to know you even better today, so let's start with your story and how you got started in copywriting and branding. Sorcha:   Sure, so I'm an accidental copywriter, probably like a lot of people. I was actually trained as an actress until I was about 20 years old. I was going to be a theater actress, and then I kind of bored of the stage world and went to film school. I got an MA in Film Studies. I wrote my dissertation on Grey's Anatomy like all good people do. I ended up interning for Disney afterwards. I did a year's internship and I just never left. I got a really good grounding there. I got to do the creative stuff and learn lots more about the marketing side and all that. So that's really how I got into things, just absolutely stumbled into it. Rob:   Okay, so I've got to know more about the dissertation on Grey's Anatomy. What was the topic? What did you do? What did you write? Sorcha:   So, it was the representations of gender and sexuality within the first season of Grey's Anatomy. So there was lots of like stuff about the gays, the female gays, and all of the kind of representations of different people and all that. It was kind of a groundbreaking show back in the day. I'm going to date myself there. It's been a while since I was at university. Rob:   Okay, cool. So trained as an actress. Tell us more about that experience and how that has fueled your career since. Sorcha:   A lot like being a screenwriter helps being a copywriter, I think having that acting training is really helpful as well, because you get used to jumping into other people's skins and really understanding their motivations and their feelings, which is kind of what we have to do for all of our clients, customers. So I started when I was very, very young. I knew from a really young age that I wanted to act. So I was classically trained. I started doing lessons when I was 5, and I went all the way through until the age of about 20, performed on stage, all of that jazz. But it meant a lot of voice work, a lot of the theory of acting, a lot of ... not quite the psychology of people, but really trying to help you understand other people so that you could become them, which is all things that help my copywriting. Kira:   So Sorcha, what does your business look like today? What services do you offer? How have you structured your business? Sorcha:   Yeah, so my business is probably a little bit different from most copywriters, because I do specialize in branding. So I do a lot of rebrands for people and a lot of messaging documents and pieces like that. I do still write copy, but it tends to be copy that is more brand focused. So web copy, social media copy, that kind of stuff. I don't do as much conversion as other copywriters. It's mainly kind of the branding side of copy that I'm focused on. Rob:   And you picked up this skillset, we know, working in an agency for some pretty big brands. Tell us about that, you know, working at the agency, but also how you picked up the process that you use today working with other clients. Sorcha:   Yeah, so I was really lucky that from a really young age, so I started in my very early 20s right when I graduated. I was working on these huge brands like say Disney, Marvel, Pixar, ABC, ESPN, all kinds of brands, and a bunch more that people wouldn't know were even connected to those brands, because small unnamed brands crop up all the time. So what I really got to do was look at how to do branding in the best way possible when budget isn't an issue and time isn't an issue. And I think those are two problems that a lot of people really suffer when they're freelance, because clients are always like, ‘I need this yesterday, and my budget is $5.’ It's just really difficult to really do anything good with that, mainly because of the research. The research is really what differentiates big agency branding and big agency copy from the small fry guys. When you have the money to do really in-depth research, it just really helps the creative process. Kira:   Cool, and I definitely want to talk about the research and what that looks like. But I'm curious, you know, I think anyone listening might hear Star Wars, Pixar, Marvel, and wonder why ... that's a dream job, why would you ever leave to jump into this crazy world of freelance and entrepreneurship? So what was the catalyst for that change? Sorcha:   Oh gosh, absolutely. And it was my dream job at the time, and I was so lucky to do that for like 13 years. But the main thing for me is, I deal with a lot of chronic health. I have quite a rare genetic condition that affects my joints and my nerves. I was really struggling with just the concept of going into an office every day and being there from ... you know, you say it's 9:00 'til 6:00. But agency world, it's 9:00 'til 6:00 am sometimes. So just that way of living really wasn't jiving for me. I was also down in London. My family are in Scotland, so there was a couple of reasons why I was just like, ‘It's time to make the move.’ And I think I had learnt everything that I needed to from that experience to really go out on my own and give people a great product. Rob:   So yeah, and my list of questions to ask you is growing with every answer that you give us. But let's jump into this idea of dealing with chronic disease, because I think there are at least some people who listen to this show who deal with their own chronic disease, or they're a caregiver for somebody who has something like this. Tell us your strategies for dealing with it, because obviously if you're on deadline, you're working with clients, and then suddenly something happens physically, you're not able to get out of bed or to do the work that you've committed to, that's almost a death blow for a successful freelance career. So how do you deal with that so that you're not leaving your clients hanging? Sorcha:   Absolutely. I manage expectations. I don't talk to my clients about my health unless it is an emergency situation. And I don't feel like they need to know, but I pad my project timelines. So my project timelines are about three times what they need to be, so that if anything crops up, I have tons of time to recoup, get my health back. Unless it's something really, really serious, which luckily it doesn't crop up too often, the client never has to know. And I think that's a really big thing that people who are new freelancers can learn from, is that you control the project timeline. You're the expert, and you're the one who is creating this product, and you need to tell the client how long that's going to take, rather than accepting that they want it in two days. Kira:   Can you give an example of your padded timeline, because I think a lot of us don't even know what's a normal timeline. So we don't know what a padded timeline is, but it would help to hear about yours. Sorcha:   Absolutely. So if I was writing a website which has four or five pages, I can actually do that research and writing in about a week and a half. But I will give myself four or five weeks to do that. Kira:   Got you. Rob:   Okay, yeah, that makes sense.

Copywriter Hannah Mang is our guest for the 117th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. We both love to travel, so we naturally wanted to talk with Hannah about how she makes her business work while traveling to interesting places around the world. But that’s not all, we also asked Hannah about: •  the accidental path she took from lawyer to copywriter •  what she did to connect with her first clients (and how that led to more) •  how she avoids the mistakes that other copywriters are making •  how she pulls the personality out of her clients •  the structure she uses for About pages and why she sometimes ignores it •  why you have to be interesting before you do anything else •  why you might want to think twice about agitating pain with your copy •  making shifts in your business and how mindset contributes •  Hanna’s tips for journaling (Rob really needed this) •  How she makes work “work” while she’s traveling •  Why speaking more than one language can help with copywriting •  The best places around the world to live and work To listen to this episode, click the play button below, or if you prefer to read, scroll down for a full transcript.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: B school A-Fest Mindvalley Kirsty Fanton Hannah on Instagram Hannah on Facebook The Copywriter Underground Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group Intro: Content (for now) Outro: Gravity Full Transcript: Rob:   This podcast is sponsored by The Copywriter Underground. Kira:   It's our new membership designed for you to help you attract more clients and hit 10K a month consistently. Rob:   For more information or to sign up, go to thecopywriterunderground.com. What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That's what Kira and I do every week at The Copywriter Club Podcast. Kira:   You're invited to join the club for Episode 117 as we chat with copywriter Hannah Mang about how she became a copywriter, the importance of creating packages for clients to choose from, her career change from copywriter to business coach and mentor, and how speaking seven-and-a-half languages influences her copy. Welcome, Hannah. Hannah:        Hi, guys. Kira:   Great to have you here. I was telling you before we hit record that I wanted to get you on the show for a while because I watched you from afar and all your travels and stories through Instagram, so it's nice to finally have you here. Let's kick this off with your story. How did you end up as a copywriter? Hannah:        Oh. Yeah, that's actually quite a funny story. Kira:   That thing. Hannah:        I know, I know. Well, it was kind of random, looking back, but I feel it was really guided. In 2013, I joined B-School and for most people who know what that is, it's Marie Forleo's course on, basically, how to run an online business and I did that without even having a business idea. Back at that time, I was a law student. I was working part-time at a law firm and I just have this urge or feeling to start my own business. I wanted to be location-independent. I wanted to do my own thing, but I had no clue what I had to offer, so I joined B-School completely clueless. Actually, what happened was that I just felt, like, ‘Okay, I need to put myself out there and just offer something.’ I had gone through coach training when I was 19 and so when I did B-School I was about 24 at the time. I figured, ‘Okay, I'm just going to offer, basically, coaching sessions for people who are just starting out and don't know what to do.’ So, it was like we teach what we most need to learn, that type of thing. I had just put out a post in the B-School group in the community on Facebook and I'd gotten a few responses. The first person I ever talked to, before jumping on the call with her, I, obviously, looked at her website, and I just started noticing all these things, tweaks you could make and how she could improve her sign-up rates if she just changed a couple words around and all of that. I ended up writing all of this down and when I jumped on the call with her, it was, like, ‘Hi. I noticed all these things and I know you never asked me to do that, but are you interested in what I have to say about your website?’ Luckily, she was, so I gave her all that input. She came back to me two weeks later, ‘My sign-up rate has tripled just from implementing a few small tweaks according to what you told me,’ and, you know, take a hint. What was most important for me, though, was that I felt like, well, it came to me very easily. It was fun, it kind of felt natural. At that time, I didn't even know what copywriting was. I didn't even know that was a thing. But I started doing that with more clients for free and, eventually, I realized, ‘Okay, I'm on to something.’ I didn't even have a website, I didn't have training or anything. I just kind of went with the flow. Long story short, just from that, I started, through word of mouth, attracting a lot of clients. Then this lady came to me, an Australian woman, and she was, like, ‘Hey, can you write my website copy?’ I was so amazed because, like I said, I didn't even have a website. I had never written anything for anyone, but, of course, I said yes and that was my first big paying client. I did it for like a thousand bucks or something. That is the short version of how I ended up being a copywriter. Rob:   Hannah, you talk about how word of mouth really got you started. Could we talk a little bit more about that? Because there are so many copywriters out there who get that first client and then they struggle to find the second. Or they see a little burst of activity at the very beginning of their business, but once they get through all of their network, suddenly they really struggle to find clients. So, were there things that you were doing to help spread the word of mouth, or are there things that copywriters can do, as they get started, to make that kind of buzz happen? Hannah:        Absolutely. Yeah, that's a great question. Looking back now, it's been five years, more than five years since that moment. I guess, in a way, I was very blessed and lucky because I have been fully booked, basically, throughout my online business career as a copywriter. But I guess, obviously, one thing to do was just deliver great work. I also just genuinely care about my clients. I always put a lot of time and effort into getting to know them and building a relationship. I think that has just really helped me. Also, I did go to some networking events, or just events. For example, I went to A-Fest. I don't know if you guys know that. It's an event/party type of thing hosted by Mindvalley so just hanging out there, meeting amazing people. I didn't necessarily pitch myself. It's just really not my style and I also was never really looking for clients like that. But just through genuinely building relationships and being curious, being interested in people and getting to know them, it has helped a lot. Eventually, I ended up working for Mindvalley for a while. It was a huge client and that was amazing and then there you have a big network. It was like a ripple effect. I don't know if that's a tip at all. It's not like I did anything in particular. I actually didn't ask people to recommend me or anything like that. It sort of just happened organically, I would say, but, yeah, I think delivering great work is definitely a good one and just following up with people. It's not like, ‘Okay, I sent off my sales page and we're done.’ You can just be a friendly, nice human being and checking with people, see how it's going, if there's anything else that you can help them with, even if they don't need anything else. Does that make sense? Kira:   Yeah. No, I'm wondering, too. You mention this is about five years ago when you really jumped into the space. A lot has changed in five years, too, so what are some mistakes that you see copywriters making today, especially the copywriters you're coaching or mentoring or you just observed online? What mistakes are they making that are holding them back from building that momentum that you are able to build to be fully booked? Hannah:        I don't even know if I know that many copywriters. But, yes, I've been mentoring a lot of people and from what I feel is that a lot of people, especially when they're new, they don't really trust them self so much. They don't really trust their own intuition, their own style, so it's like you end up looking outside, and you end up looking at all these other people. Of course, naturally, you want to learn from others, and it's also totally normal to be inspired by someone you admire in the copywriting field and this and that. But I think it's really important that, if you want to stand out and if you want to get noticed, to really trust yourself and stay true to who you are. That is definitely something that has served me well because, of course, there were also people that I admired, especially from the start. I have probably been publicly compared to others, and I've gotten some nasty comments as well, that I'm too close to this person or whatever. But at the end of the day, I always infuse a lot of my personality, at least into my own blog and all the content that I put out there for myself, and that just made me stand out. People resonate with that. But it does take courage to do that. I'm not saying that you have to be loudest or that you have to have a crazy personality and curse a lot. It doesn't matter. I think it's like you just need to be in alignment with who you are and that will automatically help you stand out and attract amazing people. But when you're always holding back a little bit,

Our guest for the 116th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast is Nabeel Azeez. Kira and Rob talked with Nabeel about getting put in time out in the Facebook club, cultivating controversy as part of your branding strategy, being a “troll” and a lot more. Here are the specifics: •  how Nabeel became a copywriter and what he does today •  becoming “Dubai’s most expensive” copywriter •  why he was put on a “time out” from The Copywriter Club •  how copywriters can stop selling themselves short •  niching—should you do it or not? •  the “Troll Framework” and how it works •  why you might consider being more controversial and why you might not •  attraction versus repulsion marketing and which works better •  what you need to do as a newer copywriter (it’s not set up a website) •  the three reasons he’s writing a book •  what he’s struggling with most in his business •  selling on the phone (and why more copywriters should do it) • the biggest opportunities for copywriters today Want to hear it? Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript. Or you can download it to your favorite podcast app.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Ramit Sethi Alpha Muslim The Think Tank Mel Abraham Alaura Weaver Agora DragonEnergy.me Chanti Zak Paige Poutiainen Myrna Begnel Zero to Launch Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group Intro: Content (for now) Outro: Gravity   Full Transcript: Rob:   This podcast is sponsored by The Copywriter Underground. Kira:   It's our new membership designed for you to help you attract more clients and hit 10K a month consistently. Rob:   For more information or to sign up, go to thecopywriterunderground.com. What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That's what Kira and I do every week at The Copywriter Club Podcast. Kira:   You're invited to join the club for episode 116 as we chat with copywriter and entrepreneur Nabeel Azeez about his claim to be Dubai's most expensive copywriter, his Troll Framework, investing in himself and his business, what it feels like to get kicked out of The Copywriter Club Facebook group, and what it means to be an alpha Muslim. Welcome, Nabeel. Rob:   Hey, Nabeel. Nabeel:          Hello. What up? What up? What's up, Rob and Kira? This is a long time coming. Second time's a charm. We tried this one time earlier in the year, but I totally sucked, so obviously it wasn't published. Rob:   I think maybe it had more to do with a bad Internet connection to where you are, which isn't always easy to get a connection. Kira:   Yeah. Well, we're glad you're back, anyway. Nabeel:          Yeah. I'm coming at you from a cave in Dubai somewhere. Kira:   All right, Nabeel. Let's kick this off with your story. How did you get into copywriting? Nabeel:          Right. I fell into copywriting by accident. I used to volunteer at this community center, and out of the group I had the best command of written English, so generally it fell to me to write the email blasts and marketing collaterals. At the time, I didn't know that you called this copywriting. Along the way I got exposed, or introduced to Ramit Sethi, and he introduced me to this world of personal development and online business I never knew existed. And then I ended up getting my first paid gig, also by accident. The community center was organizing a conference. And my friend, who was also a volunteer, he had his own marketing agency, and they commissioned him to brand the event and create all of the marketing. Obviously, he needed a writer, so he sub-contracted that out to me. I ended up writing the entire website, all of the marketing collaterals, a bespoke invitation for VIPs, and even a script for a marketing video. It was total amateur hour, and as I look back on it now, as I look at the website now, I cringe. But that was my first full package. So now I'm thinking, ‘Yo, I might could do this. I could sell my services as a writer.’ And that's when Nabeel Azeez, the copywriter, was born. Rob:   Tell us about your business since then, Nabeel. Obviously you've moved on to other clients. You're a partner, I believe, in an ad agency. You're working on your own projects. Once you decided to be a copywriter, then what? Nabeel:          Right. I have a bunch of things going on right now. Nabeel Azeez is a direct-response copywriter, author, and marketing consultant. Dropkick Copy is my boutique content studio, and I run that with my brother. Becoming the Alpha Muslim is a self-improvement blog for Muslim men, and that's my side-hustle. I was a partner in a marketing agency. I was helping out a few friends with their content strategy, but I've since moved on from that earlier in the year. Now I'm just on my own now. As a copywriter, I actually haven't nailed down a core offer yet. I write a bunch of things for a bunch of people, and I kind of like the feeling of being versatile. I'm not really sure I buy into the idea of niche’ing down. I get it, and there's a strong argument for it, but I'm not fully sold yet. Maybe that's just me not being willing or not being ready to commit to niche’ing down and going all in on one offer. But at Dropkick Copy, we sort of recently had an epiphany after launching a podcast for a client. Getting the client to create the content, it actually solves many of the problems we have when businesses outsource their content marketing. So, for now, we're only selling a done-for-you podcast launching service. Basically what we do is, we plan and build a show with the client, and then we take post-production, distribution, and promotion off their plate. So it's like a win-win, especially if the client has a high-ticket offer, or their customers go through a measured or thought-through buying process. Kira:   So Nabeel, how did you end up as Dubai's most expensive copywriter? Where did that come from? What was the catalyst for that? Nabeel:          Right. I generally like to experiment with a bunch of different things, and this tagline is one of them. I wanted to see what effect that would have on my personal brand online. It isn't false advertising; I do believe that I am the most expensive copywriter in Dubai. If I find someone more expensive, I'll raise my rates. However, being Dubai's most expensive copywriter doesn't mean I'm the world's most expensive copywriter or even America's most expensive copywriter, because I just charge US rates while living in Dubai. Sometimes I get some pushback from prospects, because they are trying to geo-arbitrage, and they think that they might get a cheapo copywriter because they're in America and we're over here. But they don't realize that the work that gets put in is exactly the same, and if they want quality and results, then they're going to have to pay accordingly. Rob:   So Nabeel, before we go any farther, we should probably note that you are one of the few copywriters that has actually been kicked out of The Copywriter Club Facebook group, at least for several months. Maybe we should talk about why that happened, and what's happened since. Nabeel:          I would reframe it, and say I was put on a time-out. I just recently sent in a join request, and that was accepted, so I'm back in The Copywriter Club now. Kira:   You're back in. Nabeel:          Yeah. So I'm going to make a grand entrance as soon as this drops. So to answer Rob's question, the catalyst for me getting put on a time-out was, basically I had been helping a bunch of female copywriters out. They had been messaging me, and I had been giving them advice on their business, how to package their services, what to charge, et cetera, et cetera. And I found this common theme occurring, and that was highly competent writers who for some reason or other keep selling themselves short. And these were all women. I haven't actually noticed that with male copywriters that I know. That gave me an idea for a product and a post. And I was actually testing, or trying to validate the product idea, or the service idea, and I posted in The Copywriter Club. Long story short, all hell broke loose, and Kira, Rob, and Brit had to do a bunch of damage control. To appease the mob's bloodlust, I had to be sacrificed. I don't actually regret writing what I did. The only thing I regret is actually putting the two of you and Brit in a difficult position like that. And I do believe I've apologized for my part in this fiasco. Rob:   Yeah. The whole thing was kind of interesting, because there was a lot of discussion around cultural differences, and those obviously come into play. There was a lot of discussion around what we're willing to tolerate for feminists versus racism, and those kinds of things. I think we had some pretty valuable discussion around that in the group at the time. I don't necessarily want to revisit that, because I think a lot of that ground has been crossed. But it's fair to say that you, with that post, offended a good number of people in our group. It was, I think, fairly described by some as over the top, and maybe not quite appropriate for what we are trying to accomplish in our group. Kira:   Right. So let's talk about what you've been doing since then. Because I think some good has come out of it for your business, and then also for our group. I think that the hard discussions we were forced to have at the time were hopefully productive for the community, even though it did cause some stress. I had a couple of stressful evenings around that time. But I feel like I see dude copywriters who struggle as well, and sell themselves short. I mean we could argue whether more women sell themselves short. I don't have those stats. But how would you say,

Luke Sullivan, author of Hey Whipple, Squeeze This! is our guest for the 115th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. Kira and Rob were thrilled when Luke agreed to share his advice on the show—Rob is a proud owner of the first edition of Luke’s book purchased 20 years ago and headed for an expanded 6th edition soon—because he comes from the advertising agency world and has a slightly different perspective on copywriting than most of our other guests. We asked Luke about: •  how he got started in the advertising business •  the elements required to create “magic” at an advertising agency •  why you absolutely must work with people who are better than you •  how to surround yourself with geniuses when you work alone •  the power of curiosity and why copywriters need it •  Luke’s favorite campaign—surprisingly it’s radio •  the moment he knew he had made it •  how loving mentors can have an oversized impact on your success •  how you learn to write a decent headline and other skills •  what it takes to get hired at a big ad agency •  the “Alien” moment you need to build into your portfolio •  the things copywriters do wrong and why “idea guy” is dead •  How Luke recommends you come up with your own big ideas •  how to structure your day for maximum creativity •  how to get creative briefs that help you do your best work •  the advice he would give young Luke if he could go back in time As expected Luke dished out some amazing advice that you’re going to want to hear as soon as you can. So click the play button below or scroll down for a full transcript. You can also download it to your favorite podcast app.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Hey Whipple, Squeeze This! Tom McElligott (lots of great ads at this link) Ron Anderson Martin Agency Fallon GSD&M SCAD HeyWhipple.com Goodby DDB Lynda Edward Boches Mullen Thirty Rooms to Hide In Luke on Facebook Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group Intro: Content (for now) Outro: Gravity   Full Transcript: Rob:   This podcast is sponsored by The Copywriter Underground. Kira:   It's our new membership designed for you to help you attract more clients and hit 10K a month consistently. Rob:   For more information, or to sign up, go to thecopywriterunderground.com. Rob:   What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes and their habits, and then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That's what Kira and I do every week at The Copywriter Club Podcast. Kira:   You're invited to join the club for episode 115 as we chat with award-winning copywriter, author and professor of advertising, Luke Sullivan, about his bestselling book, Hey, Whipple, Squeeze This!, what it takes to make great advertising, what copywriters can do to get better creative briefs, and what it takes to get hired by an elite advertising agency. Rob:   Hey, Luke. Luke: Hey, guys. Kira:   Welcome, Luke. Luke: Hello, thanks for having me. Rob:   We are thrilled to have you here because, for a lot of different reasons, but a lot of our guests in the past have focused on freelance copywriting and a lot of direct response copywriting, and you come from a different branch of advertising. Maybe, the more familiar one to most people. But we're thrilled to have you here and really interested in your story. How did you become a copywriter? Luke: Well, let's see. Number one, I'm older than both you guys, probably older than all your listeners put together. But old school is fun because of all kinds of reasons. I got into the business in the year of 1979, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, a long time ago. And back then it was all just, you know, print, outdoor, radio and TV. That was it, 1979, I was lucky enough to be hired by two Minneapolis greats, Tom McElligott, who's a hall of fame copywriter at the One Show, and the late Ron Anderson who, ask anybody in Minneapolis. He was like the godfather to the entire Minneapolis ad community. He just died several months ago, and everybody up there ... It was a sad day in Minneapolis advertising. They were the first of the regional agencies that rose in the '80s. There wasn't anything outside of New York back in the early '80s. It was just New York and, maybe there's Chicago, but the absolutely killer work was being done probably by, you know, Ally & Gargano in New York and a handful of others. Kelly McCabe, Slobes. These guys woke up the Minneapolis ad community, and soon followed was Portland and Richmond and, so I was lucky to be in the middle and be tutored by these two giants. So, my first job was at a place called, Bozell and Jacobs, which is no longer around. I was there for five years, and then I had the bug, I had to try New York City. I hated it, didn't like it. Was there for one year and then I went to the Martin Agency in Richmond. Worked for Mike Hughes, possibly the best single boss I ever, ever had. He too died about three years ago of lung cancer and, he never smoked. Yeah, it's really sad. Then I came back to Minneapolis for ten years at Fallon, which at the time, was the agency there are elite agencies, that trade the crown of who's the absolutely hottest agency. Back then, Fallon was, and then I decided to try my hand at being an owner and chief creative officer at an agency in Atlanta. Was there for five years. And then I spent my last eight years in the business at a wonderful agency in Austin, Texas, called GSD&M. That was the last time in the business, and I started teaching. In 2011? Yeah, I'd been teaching about eight years now. And I just love it. It's the exactly the right thing for me to be doing. Rob:   As you talk through your career path, you didn't mention all of the awards that you won, and the amazing things that you have done throughout your career. You were at Fallon at a time, like you said, it was kind of a magical time. Where it seemed like every single thing that the agency touched was gold, and the work was awesome. I wonder if you just tell us a little bit about that experience. Maybe the process of creating so much high-quality advertising. Luke: Well, you know what? It's like, I probably have to go into cliché world here to paint the picture because it was a magical time. It's when you have all the right things in the mix, and the magic happens. And, we had an agency in Fallon, where the account people are to be credited with that, I mean, yes they were fantastic A+ creatives. But, there was an expectation up and down the hallways, from the top down to the very bottom, that we were going to do nothing less than, just absolutely brilliant work. And that requires agreement from top to bottom. It has to be absolute alignment on it, and I worked at other agencies where we all wanted that, but there was not complete alignment from top to bottom, and so it never quite into orbit like it did at Fallon. There are other agencies like this today, who they've just got all the right things. They've got the planners, and the strategists, and the great account people, and great creative, and then of course, you end up attracting a certain kind of client. The client is the last thing in the mixture, required to get great work. And there are agencies working today, like, you know, I'll mention Wieden or Goodby, where clients go to them wanting that kind of work. They shouldn't go there if they want to just do their usual stuff. So, pretty soon your agency itself becomes a brand, and clients self-select them. They won't come to you, because they, for one reason or another, because they can see your work and they go, oh, that's not for me. So, it is, it's a huge collection of everything being in absolute harmonic resonance, in order to get that golden age feeling. Kira:   So, to have that brilliance, you've hung out with so many brilliant creatives, what do they all share in common, to have that type of alignment? Luke: That was just nuts, I remember at Fallon days, I have other agencies to talk about. But, starting with Fallon, I used to have this joke. When I went there, after working at the Martin Agency, I was just really scared because, it was just so stinking good. And, I used to have this joke that the office layout, if you looked at the map of the creatives floor. The office layout, I used to say, goes ... it went genius, genius, genius, genius, Luke's office, genius, genius, genius, genius. And my friend, Brad Kilpatrick, who worked there at the time said, ‘No, no, no, Luke,’ he goes, ‘Genius, genius, stairwell, genius, genius, Luke's office, genius, genius, stairwell.’ And that's the way it felt, and when you are working with people better than you, you get better. You get better, and so, you know my students find this at school a little bit. All the kids come to the Savannah College of Art and Design. Most of them are, were, the creative kid in their high school. Like they were the kid who was the best illustrator or did the year book. And so, these creative kids, the top creative kids of their high school, arrive here, maybe seeking an illustration degree or something, and they spend their first week on the dorm floors and they see themselves surrounded by ... I can't illustrate, these kids are killing me. They're great. It's the same thing, you surround yourself with people who are better than you, and are just ... you immerse yourself in it and it rubs off on you. It can't fail to. And so, that's what happens when you get into a good agency, you're going to just, your level is going to rise. Kira:   Yeah, it sounds like, even as a freelancer, I'm just thinking, we need to surround ourselves with other talented freelancers to continue to rise. I think it could be challenging for some freelancers who are working out of their home offices and not in an agency setting. Luke: Well,