The Copywriter Club Podcast

Former copywriter and Ad Contrarian, Bob Hoffman, is our guest for the 132nd episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. If you know anything about Bob and his special brand of commentary, you already know that you’re in for a treat. He’s been an outspoken critic of what’s wrong in the advertising world and he had a lot to say about privacy, ageism, and social media. Here’s what we talked about: •  Bob’s path from bad school teacher to contrarian copywriter •  the most important personal quality if you want to be a copywriter •  how to write in a way that attracts interest from your audience •  why he started his own ad agency—more than once! •  the dark side of running an agency and the difference when working alone •  the things about advertising that drive Bob crazy •  why privacy should be your #1 concern as a marketer and consumer •  what it will take to fix the privacy problem •  what ad agencies are doing well right now (spoiler: it’s not much) •  Bob’s complex love-hate relationship with social media •  the limits of brand building with social media •  the ultimate goal of the work that you do •  Bob’s process for selling better ideas to his clients •  the problem of ageism in advertising today—and why it matters We also asked Bob about what he’s focused on today, his book recommendations, and what’s next for him—no surprise, it’s another book—and his reluctance to tell us his predictions for the future.  To hear this one, click the play button below or download it to your favorite podcast app. Or you can scroll down for a full transcript.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Hoffman Lewis Bad Men by Bob Hoffman 10 Influencers Under 10 The Choice Factory by Richard Shotton Dave Trott Where Did It All Go Wrong? by Eaon Pritchard Eat Your Greens by Weimer Snijders Laughing at Advertising by Bob Hoffman Bob’s website Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Intro: Content (for now) Outro: Gravity   Full Transcript: Rob:   This podcast is sponsored by The Copywriter Underground. Kira:   It's our new membership designed for you to help you attract more clients and hit 10k a month consistently. Rob:   For more information or to sign up, go to thecopywriterunderground.com. Kira:   What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That's what Rob and I do every week at The Copywriter Club Podcast. Rob:   You're invited to join the club for Episode 132 as we chat with author, Ad Contrarian and chief aggravation officer, Bob Hoffman, about what's wrong and what's right in advertising today, what it's like to found two successful ad agencies, what copywriters need to know about marketing and copy right now and what it means to be a true contrarian in an industry where group think is rampant. Kira:   Welcome, Bob. Rob:   Hey, Bob. Bob:   Thank you, thank you. It's great to be here. Kira:   Bob, how did you end up as a contrarian copywriter? Bob:   I started as a contrarian person and then it led to me being a contrarian copywriter. Well, I started as a copywriter, I didn't really start as a copywriter. I started as a science teacher, believe it or not. Kira:   Oh, wow! Bob:   I was a science teacher for a couple of years in middle school and then I ran into a friend of mine who I hadn't seen since college, this was about three or four years after college and I asked him what he was doing and he said, ‘I'm a copywriter,’ and I said, ‘What's that?’ and he said, ‘I write ads,’ and he said, ‘And you would be really good at it.’ He said that to me because we had written some stuff together in college. He said, ‘You'd be really good at that,’ and at that time, I was fed up. I was a terrible teacher, and I always wanted to do writing, although I wasn't trained in it. I said, ‘How do I do that?’ First, I need to say that he said to me, ‘You know those things, the TV commercials you see on TV.’ I said, ‘Yeah.’ He said, ‘I write those.’ It had never occurred to me that civilized people actually sat down and wrote commercial. I thought somehow, they just appeared on television magically and he said, ‘Yeah.’ I was, ‘Okay, yeah. That sounds like something I'd like to do.’ He gave me some information on what to do and I put together a sample portfolio and I took it to see a headhunter. I was living in New York at that time and she told me I would never get a job in advertising and that's when I knew I had to get a job in advertising because I'm a contrarian. I did get a job and I worked in New York for a couple of years and then I moved out to San Francisco and got my first agency job in San Francisco. In New York, I was working in house at Panasonic. They had a large advertising department about 40 people or so. I got my first agency job in San Francisco, and yeah, that's how I started. Rob:   Obviously, there are differences from maybe when you got your first job to writers today, but what are the things that you did in order to land that first job? What was that made you stand out so that an agency would be willing to hire you? Bob:   I begged. I pleaded. I bribed. No, what I did … How did I get there? Well, my first job I got in New York, the in-house job was they had interviewed about 50 people or so and somehow I convinced them that I was good. I really didn't know anything. I had never written copy, but I got lucky and they hired me. When I got to San Francisco, I had a pretty good book which I had. My book of work from New York was pretty good and the first agency I went to in San Francisco which happened to be the first one in the Yellow Pages hired me, so I got lucky there, but I think that the most important thing for a copywriter to get a job, and as we talk today, I think this will become a theme in what I have to say is to be interesting. If you're going to be a writer, you have to write interesting stuff. I don't care if you're writing copy, if you're writing poetry, if you're writing movie scripts. The key is to be interesting, and if you're not interesting, if you're writing like everyone else, if your point of view is like everyone else, you're not going to be very successful. We already have enough people who can follow the script. You need to be someone who can write his own script and do it in a way that makes people want to read it. To me, that's the essence. Kira:   Can you talk more about being interesting? It seems like it could be something you either are interesting or you're not or is there a way to deconstruct it so that every copywriter could be interesting if they do these certain things? Bob:   No, I don't think every copywriter can be interesting. I don't believe that we're all equally talented. I think there are some people who are more talented than other people and some people who are more interesting than other people. I don't know if you can teach how to be interesting, but you can teach interesting people how to write in a more interesting way. The way to write in a more interesting way is to not worry about being correct all the time. Nobody is correct all the time. Nobody bats a thousand in this league. Sometimes, you're wrong, but as long as you're wrong and interesting, people will read you. As long as you're wrong and interesting, people will get something from what you're writing. If you're wrong and uninteresting or even if you're right … I'd rather be wrong and interesting than right and uninteresting. Okay, did I make any sense? Rob:   Total sense, yeah. In fact, you can totally see this playing out in politics today. The most interesting people seem to be the most wrong on both sides of the issues. Bob:   That's a good point. It's a sad fact of life, but in the communication business, being interesting is critical or no one pays attention. Rob:   Yeah, let me follow the train of your career then. After writing as a copywriter, at some point you also founded your own agency. Tell us about that experience and why you chose to do that. Bob:   Well, what happened was I was a copywriter at an agency in San Francisco and it was a very small, not very good agency. I came in there and brought a different vibe to it. I brought kind of a New York wise guy vibe to what was a very kind of conservative small California agency, and as a result of that, I got to be Creative Director of the agency at a fairly young age and I became a partner in the agency. Ultimately, I became the CEO of the agency and then we were bought by one of these international bozo agency groups and I worked for them for a couple of years and I hated that. As you can probably tell, I'm a good team player as long as I'm the captain. I didn't like working for other people particularly in like a publicly traded company. That just wasn't my vibe at all. I worked for them for a couple of years and then I went out of my own and did freelance creative work. I did that for about three years and that was great. It was very lucrative for me and I did stuff that I liked lot and I was on my own. Having been CEO of any agency and been responsible for a whole lot of people was a real pain in the ass for me, but being on my own doing it my own way was a lot of fun. I did that for three years or so. Then I just got lonely. Working on your own all the time when you're used to agency environment, it can be lonely and I always say, ‘The agencies are terrible places to work but great places to hang out,’ and I missed the hanging out part of the agency business, so I got together … I had my own little creative services company and I got together with a guy who had a small agency and put it together and we started a new thing called Hoffman/Lewis and it grew very, very nicely.

Direct response designer, Lori Haller, talks all about design and how copywriters can work more effectively with designers in the 131st episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. Lori was also one of the speakers at our recent copywriting event in Brooklyn, TCCIRL (videos available soon). Kira and Rob asked Lori about her processes, how she built her design agency, and all of the following: •  how she got started as a designer •  where her first jobs came from—and how she chose direct response as her niche •  how branding design differs from direct response •  her 3-step read-through process before she designs anything •  how copywriters can improve their working relationships with designers •  what separates the best copywriters from the rest •  how she landed the big name clients she works with •  how copywriters can learn basic design principles •  how she makes sure she has the ideas an attitude she needs to do her best work •  her advice to anyone growing a team •  where she sees copywriting going in the future •  what she does to keep learning and growing If you’ve ever wanted to get more out of your relationship with your designer, this is a good one to add to your podcast play list. To hear it, click the play button below. Or if you like reading more than listening, scroll down for a full transcript.   Most of the people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Jim Rutz Gary Bencivenga Doug D’anna David Deutsch Clayton Makepeace Carline Cole Envisioning Information by Edward Tufte Latrice Eiseman Bonus link to an interview of Lori by John Carlton Lori’s list of design references 3 Step Copy Review and Checklist Lori's website Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Intro: Content (for now) Outro: Gravity   Full Transcript: Rob:   What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes, and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That's what Kira and I do every week at The Copywriter Club Podcast. Kira:   You're invited to join the club for Episode 131 as we chat with direct response Art Director Lori Haller about working with copywriters, the relationship that design and copy share and why they need each other, why she chose direct response as her niche, and how knowing design basics will make you a better copywriter. Welcome, Lori. Rob:   Hey Lori. Lori:   Hey guys. How's it going? Kira:   It's great. Rob:   So good. Kira:   Yeah. Great to have you here, especially to have a designer in the house. Let's kick this off with your story. How did you end up as a designer? Lori:   I knew at an early age that I was in love with visualness, design, fonts. And so I went to training program for a couple years in high school where you had to be picked, it was like some type of tie in with the community college. Then I went to many years of a variety of trainings and college, at different colleges and sites in order to gain access to typography, communications, marketing, design, all that jazz. Then I went right from there into top agencies in Washington, DC. I tried to follow some of the lead art directors of that time and train under their wings for several years. The whole time I wanted my own agency at some point. And finally, about 20, 21 years ago, I decided to leave being a full-time employee and jumping in and starting my own agency. I had already ... I don't know, we might have talked about this Kira, but I'd already done nighttime work and weekend work on the side, all the whole while that I was employed, ramping up for hopefully one day building my client list and being able to go full-time just having my own agency. So luckily, it worked out. Rob:   Yeah, and it has worked out. When you were just starting to do the side projects, where did those projects come from? Was it relationships that you had in the agencies that you're working with? Or did it come some other way? And then how did you develop that into a standalone business? Lori:   Both. People in the agencies, maybe they'd have a little freelance side job, I picked that up. I'd meet people, and they would need something done. The nice thing was I got the training under the wings of all those high-end art directors learning, watching. They were so kind to help me learn all those years, and then be able to bring those skills into my own agency. Kira:   So Lori, when did you realize that you wanted to specialize in direct response? Lori:   This was a big awakening for me. So at first as you know, in just regular agency work, you are designing for design's sake, doing gorgeous designs, type fonts, and stuff like that. But then I guess once they started feeding me campaigns that would get a result, and they would come in and say, ‘The thing that you designed won.’ Or, ‘We got 5,000 more attendees this year than last year Lori.’ And stuff like that. I loved hearing that, and that's when the bug bit me hard I'm sure. Rob:   It's interesting because I think a lot of designers gravitate to the make everything beautiful, and the branding type work, and shy away from the direct response stuff because it has this reputation for being ugly, or kitschy, or whatever. And maybe that's true, although I get a sense that direct response doesn't always have to be ugly. There's all kinds of things that you can do. Talk to us a little bit about the differences between typical branding, beautiful design, and what maybe gets defined as direct response. Lori:   On the typical design, you're designing more so for design's sake. You're making it beautiful, you're still making it speak to a particular audience, I feel. But I think since that's the way my brain works in the direct response, is I love that deep down dive of research, getting to know who you're speaking to, knowing who your prospect is, and then designing just for them. Making that copy and the design speak directly to who you're speaking to in that audience. And that was a lot more difficult, it took a lot more work. Behavioral Science comes in, strategies, processes, of course the fonts, the look, the color, the photos and visuals. So I think I like that bigger challenge, and then the end result, if that all makes sense. Kira:   Yeah. Rob:   Oh yeah. Kira:   When you figured out that you wanted to be an expert in the direct response space, how did you make a name for yourself and build a reputation early on? Lori:   Let's see, I think it probably started happening a lot at KCI Communications, they were financial based publications. And so we would do the direct mail campaigns, and then we would get the results back. They started pairing me with people like Jim Rutz, Gary Bencivenga, Doug D'anna, and Dick Sanders. Then a couple times it happened where the controls were such huge wins, and they would tell me in a meeting or whatever, and just realizing that I had the opportunity to really help that company grow, gain access to more subscribers, or whatever our goal was. Once I saw that ... like one time, Dick Sanders and I did a campaign. It was eight and a half by 11 magalogue for Roger Conrad's Utility forecaster, and it ended up being the biggest winner in the 18 year history of that particular publication. That really excited me, seeing that I had the possibility and growth potential to help the company that I was working with. So that really made a mark and then after that, people started hearing about that. I started getting into health, and beauty, and bringing all those winners with me. I guess that's how it happened. Rob:   What does that interaction look like? When you're working with a copywriter, at what point do you come into a project? I imagine that there's some back and forth where you're making suggestions to the copywriter and ways they can improve the flow of things, but what would a typical project look like if one of us was working with you directly? Lori:   Typically, the client will either contact me or the writer. Sometimes they ask me what writer would I'd like, sometimes they hire the writer and then ask the writer who would they like to design it? But first thing's first, I get my hands on the copy. I do what I call the Lori Haller three step copy read, and that is reading the copy in three specific ways and I'll do it really quickly here with you. That is reading the copy just to read it so that I can get an idea of what the main story is, the idea, the concept. I also understand the offer, and how they're trying to sell the product. And within this copy read, I read it out loud so I can hear it. As you know, copywriters will work on things for two or three months, they've seen it for so long, they can't see a crazy sentence if it was the last thing in their life to do. So, me reading it out loud, me reading it very many times over and over again. So I step into the shoes of the audience. I can find red flags where maybe a sentence, or a section, or the offer just isn't making sense. When I get in the shoes of the reader, I can see the words that are just too difficult, the words that will throw me off, the words that will stop me so I don't want to read any longer. In that first read, I’m circling things, I make a print out. I don't just read it on my computer monitor. I will report back to the copywriter, ‘Hey, I found these areas that aren't making sense to me, it looks like the offer's kind of weak.’ And we go back and forth. It's a trust thing as you can imagine, but they trust me, and I trust them. Then the second time, I jump into the shoes of the audience, and I read it with their eyes, their heart, their mind, and how does it make them feel? So again, I will circle areas that feel cold, areas that are great, they feel hot, they're very connected, and I will talk to the writer about that.

We’ve flipped the microphones again and invited copywriter Kirsty Fanton back into the studio to interview us for the 130th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. This is the episode where we answer important questions like... What’s a furfie? What’s a ripsnorter? And has Rob ever cried in a movie? And what disgusting work habits does Kira have? Plus we talk about what the Copywriter Think Tank is like—it’s only open for new members once a year and we’re taking applications right now. Here are a few of the topics we covered: •  our favorite moments from TCCIRL and why this year was even better than last •  the speakers who stood out—the people you definitely want to watch when the videos are ready •  a short description of the “lost” panel discussion •  the new round of The Copywriter Think Tank •  the importance of balancing financial success with a personal life •  Kira’s favorite post from her blog about being tall in New York •  Rob reveals that he has cried in a movie and that he can’t even remember the right breed of dog in the movie •  the thing that Rob did that still bothers Kira •  what Rob and Kira’s childhood hobbies were We think this one is kind of fun. Make sure you stick around for the “lightning round” at the end to really get to know your hosts. It’s easy to listen, just click the play button below, or download the episode to your favorite podcast app. Readers can scroll down for a full transcript.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: The Copywriter Think Tank The Copywriter Accelerator The Copywriter Club In Real Life Event Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Intro: Content (for now) Outro: Gravity   Full Transcript: Kirsty:            What if you could have a yarn with ridgy-didge copywriters and other experts, ask them about their ripsnorters and furphies, their work processes and habit-a-roos, then pitch an idea or two to inspire your own hard yakka. That's what Rob and Kira do every week at The Copywriter Club Podcast. And if you haven't already guessed, today's episode is coming to you from the land down under, where we drive on the left, celebrate Christmas in the sweaty peak of summer, and wear thongs on our feet. Given everything is upside down and inside out over here, it's only fair that I'm flipping the tables, and getting Robira to spill the beans on all things TCC. We'll get the down low on last months In Real Life event, a sneak peak at the new and improved Copywriter Think Tank, and the inside scoop on Rob's most woo woo moment, and Kira's grossest working from home habit. Hey guys. Kira:   That was the best intro ever. Rob:   I might have to leave. I'm a little weirded out right now. That was English, right? You were speaking English? Kirsty:            I was speaking English, Rob. Kira:   Yeah, but what is a furphie? Kirsty:            A furphie's like an error or a mistake. Kira:   Wow. Okay. Definitely using that one. Rob:   Nice. Kirsty:            It’s a good word. You can drop it in when you're over here next month, Rob. You'll sound like a local. Rob:   Yeah. I can't wait. I'm going to like just memorize this, ripsnorters and furphies. Got it. Ready to go. Kirsty:            You'll fit right in. Well, guys, it's so nice to be chatting with you again so soon. I feel like I'm getting maximum in Robira time this month because I was over with you guys in Brooklyn like what, two weeks ago? For the final- Kira:   Yeah. Kirsty:            ... Think Tank workshop and also for of course TCC IRL version 2.0. So, how are you both after what I imagine has been a huge month at your end? Kira:   How are you, Rob? Rob:   I am great. I am- Kira:   You're always great. Rob:   ... we've had some time to rest and start picking up the pieces. It felt like it was a success. You're right though, it was a hard work. It was tiring. Like I immediately went home Sunday afternoon, had dinner with my family, fell asleep at four o'clock in the afternoon and I didn't wake up until like 5:30 the next morning. Kira:   Whoa. Rob:   So like, it was tiring, but I feel good now after a couple weeks. It's been good. Kira's been going ever since. Like she didn't even stop. Kira:   I won't slow down. Rob:   Because then she took time off ... And yeah. So, she's tired I think. Kira:   Yeah. I really am. Now I'm sick, too, so. No, I mean, it was exciting and I just jumped straight into my birthday, so took some time off for my birthday and realized that going out and celebrating with the girlfriends for my birthday was going to be exhausting, so probably not the best follow-up to the event. But it was fun nonetheless. And then, we went to DC to look for a new home. So, yeah. It's been on the go with some big life changes the last few weeks. I have not slowed down to rest yet. I do need to do that, my body is starting to feel all the weight from the last few weeks. So, I do need to slow down. I think my body is kindly trying to tell me that right now, so I need to just listen. Kirsty:            Yes. That sounds like a good plan. You are a machine for having powered through all of that. I mean, so it sounds like obviously the event left you guys maybe a little bit worse for wear in the immediate days after, but how was it when you were actually there? Like what were some of the things that you really got out of it, what was some of your favorite moments, your favorite presentations? Kira:   Yeah. So for me, I think the follow-up event is always tricky because the first one was so wonderful, and Kirsty, you were there, you kind of felt the magic of the first time you're meeting everyone in real life. So, I was a little bit nervous going into the second one, but to me, it felt just as exciting and connecting with everyone you kind of felt that same excitement just as much, if not more, because it was a little bit bigger, so more people there. And just really, really exciting, and I feel like it was just the perfect continuation. Also, just spending more time with people, and even in kind of knowing them more a year later, and getting to connect with them in person was great. I'd say my favorite moments were kind of the intimate moments. Like the dinner adventures. It was just really special. It was seven of us at a restaurant in Williamsburg, Brooklyn, just getting to know each other and kind of having some awkward moments and then drinking some wine and then just relaxing and getting to know each other and having some really great conversations and planning each other's futures. But I really enjoyed those moments probably even more than the large moments where we were all at the cocktail party. So, that stood out to me. Rob:   That was a good answer. I'm not sure I can add much to that. Like it was just ... it was a great event. The speakers were great, the people that were there was great, it was just so much fun. And so rewarding in a lot of ways. Kirsty:            Yeah. And again, as you said, I was there and I was also there last year. And you guys just killed it again. I was a bit unsure how you would top version one from 2018, but I mean, I think you guys did. There were so many more people there, the speeches and the presentations were all so valuable, and I think there were maybe even slightly more opportunities this time around to actually hang out in smaller groups and just get to know people a bit better, which as you guys both said, is highly valuable. One thing I like that you just said Kira, is that you got to see everyone a year later. Sort of a year down the track from the first event. How is that for both of you guys, to sort of see how people are changing and evolving in their businesses? Kira:   Yeah, it feels ... kind of more like a long-term relationship rather than just a one night fling. This feels like this is something real and I think there's a big investment on the part of everyone who travels to our event. And especially when people travel twice, two years in a row, I just ... I think that level of commitment kind of speaks to the energy and then the relationships that are formed, the conversations that you have, because the people that show up are really committed to creating a career. And so, the conversations you have are a little bit deeper, and I don't know, it just makes you feel like, ‘Hey, these are people I can surround myself with for a while. Like we're all in it together and can support each other.’ And so, it just ... I don't know. It felt like the relationships are more solid this year, compared to last year, where it was just really exciting and fun to get together for the first time. So, it just feels like there's a deeper level of commitment on the part of everyone, not just us. Rob:   And I think when you talk about that level of commitment, too. We take that really seriously. And when we know that somebody's flying in from India, or Australia, or Denmark, or the UK, we understand the investment they're making in being there, and so we want to make sure that what they get when they get there is worth the investment. And we ... that's why we get the speakers that we get, that's why we focus so much on ... I mean, we really probably do too much content and too many things, but we just want to make sure that everybody who walks away, walks away thinking absolutely that was the best money I've spent investing in my business this year. Kirsty:            And speaking about ROI, or looking at it like that, what for you guys, which presentations gave the biggest ROI or gave the biggest like ‘ah-ha’ moments? Kira:   Yeah. I mean, it was tricky for me because I was in and out a lot throughout the presentations, so I didn't get to hear all of them, but I really did enjoy Joel's conversation or his presentation on the sales call,

Copywriter Pete Michaels of Rock and Roll Copy fame is back for a second guest appearance—exactly 100 episodes after his first visit to our studio. A lot has changed in Pete’s business since we last talked, so we asked him about: •  what’s happened since we last talked •  why he moved from London to Berlin •  Pete’s questioning process for making the decision to move •  how moving away from your comfort zone leads to progress •  the role expectations play in what we do (and do well) •  how working with a mentor shines a light on his processes •  how Pete pulls his personality into his work and what that looks like •  the importance of professionalism—why it matters •  why (and how) he’s having more fun these days •  the “real” role a copywriter should play in their clients’ businesses •  his “selling unique” process and what it involves •  the spiritual journey that Pete has been on for the past 2 years • Pete’s take on the future of copywriting Worth a listen? Then click the play button below, or download the episode to your podcast player. Or if you prefer to read, scroll down for a full transcript.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Jason Leister Company of One Eric Bakey Pete’s website A book Pete didn't mention but wanted to Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Intro: Content (for now) Outro: Gravity   Full Transcript: Transcript coming soon...

Copywriter Keli Chevalier was the final speaker at TCCIRL19 and she brought down the house with her chant about booty call brands (get the videos to see what we’re talking about). Now she’s our guest for the 128th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. We had hoped to get this out last week before the event, so you could have a taste of what she was going to speak about, but it works as a follow up too. Here’s what we covered: •  how she unknowingly started writing copy while selling weapons for the Army •  what she did as an Army Major (she was a pretty big deal) •  how she developed her writing process—the BOMB method—while under fire in Iraq •  the “Sitcom Principles” that apply to sales pages and kick starter campaigns •  why she likes to work with frameworks and the impact on her business •  her thoughts on leadership and how it applies to copywriting •  what she did to attract her first clients and get traction •  what else she knows beyond copywriting •  how to rock a conference (even before you get there) •  what she’s done to uplevel her business over the past few years •  the people she has on her team—there are a few you might not expect •  the process she stole from the Army to get everyone on the same page •  the thing she’s done that has had the biggest impact on her business • how harsh feedback changed her approach to everything she does We also talked about the imposter complex and her big goal for the coming year (it’s a good one). Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript. Or if you prefer, download this episode to your favorite podcast app.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Text: "LaunchMe" to 39492 TCCIRL 2020 Videos (link coming soon) Keli’s website Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Intro: Content (for now) Outro: Gravity   Full Transcript: On it's way....

Direct response copywriter Pauline Longdon shares her thoughts about showing up in a bigger way in the 127th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. What does she mean by that? It’s not enough any more to just show up. You need to be strategic about how, where, when and with whom you show up. And that’s just one of the many things we discussed with Pauline, Here’s a short list of some of the other topics we covered... •  how she went from army nurse to up-and-coming copywriter •  the impact that depression had on her—and how she dealt with it •  how her experience as a nurse helped her develop the copywriter’s secret weapon •  why she writes “emotional” direct response copy •  why we should forget copy tricks and what to do instead to write more emotionally •  what she did to accelerate her copywriting business •  the worst thing a prospect can say to you (and why it doesn’t matter) •  how she makes time for her own business •  what she’s learned from her time in the world’s most exclusive copy training program •  the must read book that copywriter should read •  not just showing up but showing up strategically •  how she optimizes—not manages—her time to get so much done •  her unique—longer—take on the pomodoro technique •  why Pauline invests in more than one copywriting group at the same time •  what she’s focused on in the coming year Ready to listen? Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript. And if you prefer to listen while doing other things, you can download this episode to your favorite podcast app. Be sure to subscribe so you don’t miss another episode.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Gary Bencivenga Think and Grow Rich Mal Emery Parris Lampropolous How to Win Friends and Influence People Victor Schwab Scientific Advertising Tested Advertising Methods 4thEdition Breakthrough Advertising Titans of Direct Response AWAI Carline Anglade Cole Pauline’s Website Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Intro: Content (for now) Outro: Gravity   Full Transcript:

Copywriter Zafira Rajan is our guest for this un-numbered episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. Zafira’s business has really taken off over the past year as she’s focused in on a niche and gotten herself in front of the right clients. We talked about that as well as how she has used events to connect with people in person. Here’s what we covered: •  her journey from Nairobi to Vancouver and journalist to copywriter •  the skills she learned as a journalist that make her a better copywriter •  the surprising interview question that often leads to a new idea •  why she doesn’t have a standard list of questions for interviews •  the little things she did to start her business the right way •  the systems she uses to make projects go more smoothly •  the changes she made to her business in the last year—and the impact it’s had •  how niching has *surprise*helped her business grow •  the packages she has created and what they include •  how she uses events to connect with clients •  her tips for doing well on instagram (and who to follow) •  how to think about brand messaging as a copywriter •  a few of the mistakes she’s made over the past year or two •  a few details about her women of color project •  why she’s excited for The Copywriter Club In Real Life Like we say, this is a good one. To hear it, click the play button below, or simply scroll down for a full transcript. If you prefer to listen while you work out or run errands, download it to your favorite podcast app.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: The Copywriter Accelerator The Copywriter Think Tank Laura Belgray Zafira's website Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Intro: Content (for now) Outro: Gravity   Full Transcript: Kira: What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That’s what Rob and I do every week at The Copywriter Club podcast. Rob:  You’re invited to join The Club as we chat with copywriter Zafira Rajan about how her background as a designer has made her a better copywriter, what’s she done to gain traction in her business, building relationships, and her secret for networking, and what she’s doing to support other women of color. Kira:  Welcome, Zafira. Rob:  Hey, Zafira. Zafira:  Hi. Kira:  It’s great to have you here. We met you a year and a half ago in the Accelerator Program, and then you moved into the Think Tank Mastermind Group. And then you and I have worked on several projects now, so I feel like we know you really well, and the more we chat with you about your business and how you’ve grown over the last year or so. Rob and I are both like, “We need to bring you onto the show and share what you’re doing, what you’re learning, because it’s working, so we should share with the other copywriters as well.” So excited that you’re here, and let’s kick this off with your story. How did you end up as a copywriter? Zafira:  Yeah, well it’s not a long journey. I realized pretty early on that I wanted to have a business of my own. I’m originally from Nairobi, Kenya, and I moved here to Vancouver about nine years ago, when I started university. My path probably started just even by doing an English Literature degree, writing every day, and I really thought at the time I would be going down the path towards journalism. And I was writing for the student paper, I started a platform for college women to share their voices that’s still alive today, and then I started managing a lot of social media accounts during that time and when I graduated I was doing marketing for the university. But I was also penning columns for publications here about global news and word just started getting out that I could write and I could manage social media and I could do a bunch of different things. So I started getting requests from people I knew, people who knew other people to do work for them, and then I suddenly had a full-time job but also tons of work to do on the side. So I started to think that I really wanted to make that leap to being my own boss, to managing my own schedule, but I wanted to do it really strategically. So I saw the perfect opportunity at my university to take on a marketing role that was just a 60% position so that I could still be earning money for a year, but having the time freed up to work on my own stuff and build up a business over the year. So I started doing that, and by the time that year wrapped, that was really like my deadline for me to be like, “Okay, we’re pressing ‘go’ on January 1st. Like, you are doing this on your own now,” and that was about three years ago now and I haven’t really looked back since. I mean, the types of copy I’ve written, the journey that I’ve taken, and the clients that I’ve worked with have really changed along the way. but that was how I made the leap initially. Rob:  Zafira, I’m really interested in knowing, when you were studying journalism what kinds of things you learned there that apply to how you write today. Zafira:  Oh my gosh, so much. The first thing I would say, really, is just learning how to listen to people really well, and that’s something that naturally, I’ve always been a listener in the room. I’m not the loudest person in a room. In fact, my parents never even knew when I was home, I was so quiet. But when I was trying to get into journalism, and this is like being 19, 20, and interviewing people who would lead frats, and who would be athletes who were about to go to the Olympics. It was just getting to talk to so many different kinds of people. I was sitting down with them for an hour, and having the opportunity to do that as a student where time feels different the way it does now, I could really sit and have those long conversations and listen to them really intently. But also just learn the art of asking the really good questions. Like I’ve always been so surprised by what I get at the end of an interview, like by, “Thanks, is there anything else you wish we would have talked about or you wanted to add?” And then my whole story comes out from there. But I think it’s really, yeah, the art of listening is the art of learning to ask the right questions, but also reading people really well and knowing where you can push them where to look back, and just talking to people. I don’t love being in a big crowd, but I really relish the power of that one-on-one connection, and that’s something that I think naturally, seamlessly floated into how I run my business today, especially when it comes to customer interviews or even just sales calls and letting my perspective clients just open up, is a skill that I really value and I’m so glad I have the opportunity to use it. Kira:  Can you dig a little bit more into that, because I don’t think it comes as easily or naturally to all of us where you can really understand when you should push a little bit more to get an answer and allow a conversation open up. So are there certain questions or any tips that you have for us when we’re in those customer interviews and we’re trying to build rapport and build trust quickly so that they can open up. Zafira:  That’s a good question. Honestly, I think it’s just seeing them as humans, not seeing them as another person you have to interview, or another person that’s on the list to check off. And bringing empathy to the table, for me, is huge, and I try to do that in everything I do. So listening for those moments where they’re pausing, and not even trying to talk over them or trying to introduce the next question, or seeing where it looks like they’re holding back and they might want to go a little further and just prompting them. But I think, just being able to approach it in a way that you’re not actually trying to massage the conversation. You’re just trying to create little bubbles and facets for things to open up in. And I really think that comes from just not even going through a standard list of questions, but going with the flow of the conversation, seeing naturally what that person wants to talk about, and what they’re gravitating towards. I think in the beginning when I started out, I always felt like, “I have to cover a checklist of things,” and I had to get all this information out. But I’ve learned over the years to just see where things go and let them take the lead sometimes, because they’re the ones that have everything to offer, not me, in that conversation, and to just trust that they’ll open up and they’ll share vulnerably with you, and just holding that space for them to do that. Rob:  So this isn’t really a question, but I want to agree wholeheartedly with what you were just saying. It seems to me that one of the mistakes that a lot of copywriters make is that we, when we’re doing our research, when we’re interviewing potential customers with products that we sell, we have this list of questions that we want to find out answers to. And because we’re stuck to the list, we don’t even let the people that we’re talking to go really deep with their story. And it seems like you’ve gotten really good at overcoming that stuck-on-the-list kind of a thing. Zafira:  Yeah, yeah. And I think that there’s no value in sticking to the list. You can always come back to the list. That’s what I mean when I say treat them like humans. If you met them outside of your zoom room, would you be like, “Wait a second, let me just go back to this question,” and, “Let me cut you off because I need to check this off my list.” You wouldn’t do that, and I found that there’s a lot of power in just treating it like a real conversation. More recently, I actually ended up getting two clients from my customer interviews just ... Kira:  Nice. Zafira:  ... because they were like,

Okay, this one is more than a little different. We talked with bio-energetics therapist and self mastery coach, Ron Baker for the 126th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. Let’s just say this upfront, this interview is way outside our experience as copywriters. But as human beings, maybe there’s something here that we can all learn from. Here’s what we covered with Ron: •  how he become a “bio-energetics therapist” and self mastery coach •  how to be present in the moment and get in touch with your “inner self” •  the place that breath plays in inspiration, intuition and passion •  an exercise or two to get in touch with your inner self •  how breath work and sound has changed Ron’s client’s life •  Ron’s experiences visiting sacred sites around the world •  what is possible for deeper personal potential and consciousness •  the one thing everyone should do when it comes to woo •  how woo applies to online marketing Want to hear it all? Click the play button below or download this episode to your favorite podcast app. Or, if you prefer, you can scroll down for a full transcript.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Ron’s website Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Intro: Content (for now) Outro: Gravity   Full Transcript: Rob:   This podcast is sponsored by The Copywriter Underground. Kira:   It's our new membership designed for you to help you attract more clients and hit 10K a month consistently. Rob:   For more information or to sign up, go to thecopywriterunderground.com. Kira:   What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That's what Rob and I do every week at The Copywriter Club Podcast. Rob:   You're invited to join the club for episode 126 as we chat with self-mastery coach, Ron Baker about self-mastery and what we can do to get better at it. The levels of consciousness, creating a better life, and what it all has to do with copywriting. Kira:   Welcome, Ron. Ron:   Thank you for having me here. I have been enjoying your podcast a lot. I was actually just laughing my ass off at the interview that Ry did with the two of you. Kira:   Oh, you listened to that one. Ron:   I love ... Well, I listened to many, but I love the humanity and- Kira:   Oh boy. Ron:   Putting yourselves in the hot seat. I thought it was very courageous. I'm really- Rob:   Let's not do that again, shall we? Kira:   No I think we should do that more often. That was fun. So thanks for jumping in here with us. We were just saying before we started recording that this conversation is a little bit different than our normal copywriting focus conversations but I feel like this would be really helpful for us to branch out and stretch and for other copywriters to stretch, as well. So let's kick it off with your story, Ron. How did you end up as a bio-energetics therapist and self-mastery coach? Ron:   Well, the simple version of that is how did I end up as a nurturer and a guide for people to get to know themselves more fully? Because as I share just a brief version of my story, it will end up with how I went through 20 years of school as well as home and nobody taught me anything about myself, about my inner self, about how to truly trust myself and be fulfilled as a self. So, all of that started out way back when in North Carolina, and I grew up in a home that had some very typical challenges and some difficult challenges, and basically we were five separate people on five separate islands who didn't know how to communicate and nurture. Though everybody was inherently a really good person, nobody had the skills to create connection, intimacy and communication. We ended up with alcoholism and divorce and all kinds of things to navigate. At the same time, I was having these inner gut feelings that I couldn't explain. I said, ‘I feel like I am protected and I'm guided.’ And I feel like I'm being prepared for something and I had no idea what I was talking about. I was only like 10 and 11 years old when all that started to happen. I then moved through high school into college and out into the world and had a first career compensating for all of my self-doubt. All of the lack of education about self. All of the fear and shame that I carried and I had some really cool ways to do that. I had a first career where I got to be one of the lucky ones performing over 60 leading roles in Broadway shows and opera all over the world. I was in glamorous positions working with famous people, signing autographs and I was so unhappy on the inside. I didn't know how to fulfill my self and it was really confusing, because I was living some people's idea of the dream of success. And so, I interrupted the whole thing and went on a journey of inner exploration and what I discovered over the years, there was some overlap, but over the years of studying with so many different teachers and perspectives, was that the inner is the whole point. Me expressing myself in performing, me experiencing being in it, is what was fulfilling. Me deepening my self and my connections with people is what mattered and so, to tie that together with copywriting, I love sharing this and all that I've learned with other people who want to express and have a voice and be creative and inspire other people. And so I put together the pieces of my journey and a ton of years of studying with different people interrupted that performing career and when the tools that I was developing for myself ended up helping my friends that I would share it with, I eventually, to make the story much shorter, transitioned to doing that full time and now 22 years later, I have been jammed full of clients all over the world who simply want to take their lives to the next level by getting to know and how to tap and how to express their most authentic selves. Rob:   So when you talk about experiencing this at a deeper level, it sounds to me a little bit like when we talked about being present in the moment. But maybe it's something deeper than that. We talk more about that and that experience and how we do that? Ron:   Absolutely. Being present in the moment is vital. Most people do their best every day to be present in the moment, but they don't even know what they don't know. Clients come to me and I say, ‘You'll be amazed three, six months from now, as you begin to work, how little you have been connected to yourself. Even your physical body.’ So, learning how to connect physically, how to connect emotionally, how to get in touch with the inner self in very simple, practical ways, begins to awaken and stimulate the inner self rather than I'm someone who does this and I'm my activities and I don't know anymore than to build the outer structures. So when we get in touch with the inner self, let's actually start with a practical exercise that everybody listening could do at this moment to see how in touch with your physical self you are in this moment. I'm going to say a word and I would encourage you not to shift a thing but just bring your focus to this word. The word is breath. Just pay attention to what you're already doing. I have been teaching for 22 years and 99% of the time what people discover is they are doing a very shallow high in the chest, what I call ‘survival breath’. There are reasons for that. We have most of our physical, emotional, mental energy that was impacted in our early lives, held in our lower bodies and when we weren't nurtured and taught how to trust the connection to self and the value of self, then we hold a bunch of fear, shame and judgment there and what we learn to do is to make the breath shallower and shallower and shallower, trying to avoid shaking up our fear, shame and judgment. So we focus on the outside. We breathe shallow. We go up in our heads living on what I call the ‘observation deck’ of life. Just observing everything like I was doing in my career performing. I was observing and there, but I wasn't present in the moment as an experience in myself. So what I teach people to do is recognize what has been habitual, like that shallow survival breath, and then I teach them to breathe like we did naturally as a baby. If you watch a baby lying on its back in a crib, the only thing that moves is the belly. It goes up and down. Well that's exactly where we hold a lot of our stuff. And so as a child, it was overwhelming but now that we are an adult, going back in to do it, it is completely safe. Not a big deal at all. So, I encourage people to take a deep breath that fills the lower belly and then to do a proactive out breath through the mouth. And it sounds a little like this. I have never had a single person when I suggest that they take a full breath ever do an out breath like that. How does that apply to someone being a copywriter? Your breath determines how much you are in touch with your inner self and your out breath determines how free you feel to assert and express yourself. 99.99 of the people I have taught have a very tight, careful out breath. When people learn how safe they are to begin moving their energy and awakening themselves more fully on the inside, all of a sudden, they begin to tap a different level of creativity and inspiration and intuition, and the stuff that is in the guts all of us writers that want to express, develops a more relaxed, freer capacity to get that out and on the page. So that's one way being more in the moment just connecting to the physical body, it can be practical and will change your life. Kira:   Okay. I love that because I often just stop breathing when I am working. I catch myself. Just, I think a lot of copywriters do that because you're on your laptop typing and you just don't breathe.

Conversion copywriter, Lisa Pierson, joins us for the 125th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. We’ve known Lisa for a couple of years and have witnessed as she’s built a growing freelance business in a short time—creating demand for her copywriting and her presence on stage to talk about increasing conversions. This was a great conversation that covered: •  how Lisa went from journalism and PR to copywriter •  why she joined a mastermind when she wasn’t sure what a mastermind was •  how she landed her first clients •  how she managed to start a business in the middle of massive life changes •  why putting your self matters (and how it helps) •  when things started to “click” and how Lisa’s business has changed •  how joining Match.com and online dating led to her first speaking gig •  the impact that speaking has had on her business •  what else Lisa’s done to build her authority as a copywriter •  what it takes to be more competitive as a copywriter today •  what she’s done to make her retainer agreements work •  what it means to be a “conversion” copywriter—it’s all about process •  how she started “copy training” for companies This is a good one. You know the drill. To hear it, click the play button below or download the episode to your podcast app. And, as always, you can scroll down for a full transcript.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Copyhackers Inbound theconversioncopywriter.com Lisa’s Twitter Lisa on YouTube Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Intro: Content (for now) Outro: Gravity   Full Transcript:   Full transcript coming soon...

Launch manager, Shannon McCaffery, is our guest for the 124th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. We’ve known Shannon for a little over a year and after talking with her about TCCIRL and several other launches she’s helped manage, we thought she’d be a great guest for the show. Here’s a sample of what we talked about: •  how she went from a corporate job to independent business owner •  the biggest lessons she learned from working with Dan Kennedy •  why she doesn’t ever take phone calls on the weekend •  how she earned the nickname, “the product launch chick” •  the three different ways Shannon helps her clients — an idea you can steal •  how she conducts her initial consulting call so she closes more business •  the 5 questions she asks of every potential clients •  what she does during her $8K strategic planning days •  the 3 Ms—message, market, media—and why you need to get all three right •  knowing which events are the right ones to attend •  why you should always take the VIP option (if there is one) at an event •  what’s working in launches today (and what isn’t) and how copywriters fall short when working on them •  how spirituality has impacted her life and business • what the future of online marketing looks like To hear it all, just click the play button below. Or download the episode to your favorite podcast app. And, if reading is your thing, you can scroll down for a full transcript. After we were done with the recording, we asked Shannon a couple of questions about what copywriters need to do to really stand out in their marketplace... we've shared her answer to that a one or two other copy-related questions in the Podcast Extras in The Copywriter Underground.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: No BS Insider Circle Ryan Deiss Perry Belcher Yanik Silver Jeff Walker No B.S. Time Management Don’t Make Me Think Brenden Burchard Frank Kern Rob Berkley Secret Prayer by Joe Vatale Wishes Fulfilled by Wayne Dyer The Obstacle is The Way by Ryan Holiday SoulfulVisionMarketer Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Intro: Content (for now) Outro: Gravity   Full Transcript: Rob:   This podcast is sponsored by The Copywriter Underground. Kira:   It's our new membership designed for you to help you attract more clients and hit 10K a month consistently. Rob:   For more information or to sign up, go to thecopywriterunderground.com. Kira:   What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes, and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That's what Rob and I do every week at The Copywriter Club Podcast. Rob:   You're invited to join the club for episode 124 as we chat with product launch manager and direct marketer, Shannon McCaffery, about becoming an online marketer, running launches with experts like Jeff Walker and Lisa Sasevich, the role spirituality plays in her life and business, and what's not working in online marketing today. Kira:   Hey, Shannon. Welcome. Rob:   Great to have you here. Shannon:     Hey guys, awesome to be here. Thrilled. This is going to be fun. Kira:   Alright. So, we met you in a Titans master class. We're all members in there with Brian Kurtz, and you and I are actually in an accountability group, so we get to connect on a regular basis, but I don't think I know your entire story, so let's start with how you ended up as an online marketer. Shannon:     Yeah, sure. I actually was in corporate America for a good bit. After that stint, I got to say, I think it was in there 15, 16 years, I don't know, it all rolls together, I lost my job, or they laid me off in a layoff. And basically my mentor came to me, his name is Rob Berkeley, an amazing coach, and he said, ‘Hey, don't go back to corporate America. I just bought this independent business advisor with Dan Kennedy. Come help me run that and I'll help you create your own online marketing business.’ And I said, ‘Sure. Why not? What do I got to lose?’ And that's what happened. Rob:   Okay. Already questions. First of all, working with Dan Kennedy, how was that, but how did the whole building that business go? What were the next steps? Shannon:     Oh, sweet. Yeah. Well, basically at that time this was, I'm dating myself. This was 2006. Basically Dan, they were still independent so it was Bill and Dan, and they were the Glazer Kennedy Insider Circle, right? Basically they sold these independent business advisor, if I can say that word. And they had one for every major city around the country. He bought the Boston one. So basically we were Dan Kennedy and Bill Glazer's arm in Boston. We ran monthly Glazer Kennedy meetings for everyone locally in Boston and the Massachusetts area who wanted to have access to Dan and all of his stuff. Then we also created a Mastermind group, and we would bring those folks to Dan and Bill's meetings that they had twice a year, their big events. Shannon:     It was a pretty amazing experience. We trained people. We created a whole direct response marketing club locally. We did that for four years and it was an amazing experience. Then we built it up enough that we wanted to do other things, so we sold it back to them. It was pretty cool. Rob:   Okay. Cool. How did you go from that then to what you're doing today, which is I think you're doing more on your own, but you're working with some a pretty big name individuals in the launch space and in the online marketing. Shannon:     Right. Well, I think for me what happened was, as you can tell, I'm not a shy person. I don't shy away from much. That experience of being involved with Rob and with Dan, because he was also in Bill Glazer's Mastermind group. Ryan Deiss was in there, Perry Belcher. I got introduced to a lot of the big guys back then, Yannick Silver, Jeff Walker. I mean a lot of those guys were ... They were just starting. They were on the verge of creating and building our businesses. I mean I knew Ryan Deiss and Perry Belcher before they created Digital Marketer. This is when they were doing all sorts of other stuff, right? I ended up hanging out with those guys, and it ended up being in Yannick Silver's Mastermind, because I was in his Mastermind and then I started ... I met Jeff Walker and I started doing things. Jeff and I started talking. I went to his first live event. I actually bought his print product. I still have it. Things just sort of evolve from there. I mean this is going to sound so trite, but it's like life, when you just take a chance, and then stuff just starts happening. Right? It's hard to believe. I mean, this was when Twitter was young, and I was on Twitter, and Jeff reached out to me on Twitter and said, ‘Hey. Let's get on a call.’ This was before Twitter was insane, and social media. I think this was even before Facebook, which is really dating me, or before Facebook really got to be Facebook, but anyway. Kira:   So what was the biggest lesson you learned from working with Dan Kennedy, like a lesson that's influenced your work today? Shannon:     Well, one of the biggest ... Gosh. There's so many. I think first, for anybody that's starting out, I think one of the most impactful things for me is that none of my stuff has to be perfect. I mean I'll never forget this conversation. You guys and I were talking earlier, and this was so funny. You brought this up to me. I remember talking to Rob and I said, ‘You know, Rob, I can't launch my business until I get my business card.’ He's just looking at me like I'm crazy, and I'm like, ‘What do you mean?’ Then I realized, ‘Oh. Wait, nothing has to be perfect, and I don't need a damn business card to start my business.’ I just have to have the courage and the gumption to just do it. Right? That was one of the things, and good is good enough was another huge thing. Like my stuff doesn't have to be perfect, I just need to get the damned stuff out there and then I can perfect it along the way. Dan taught me that. Another really good one with time management. I wrote this down. You guys, for everybody on this call, if you don't have Dan Kennedy's ‘No BS Time Management’, go out and buy it now. I mean it's inexpensive. Go to Amazon. Go get it. I mean it's an amazing book. He talks about time vampires, and he talks about it's all about taking back your time from other people. Don't let other people manage your time. The hilarious thing is that I'm working with Dan on some projects with some clients and the only way you can communicate with Dan is by fax and my clients are like, ‘This is insane.’ I go, ‘Yeah, I know, but listen it works for him.’ How many people are you going to see today? He's inaccessible for a reason. so there's certain things that I learned from him and how he built his business of how you can build yours and one of them is don't let other people manage your time. For newbies, this is huge too, let's say you don't have anything going on for the week. Well, don't let other people know that. Just say, ‘You know what? My only availability is on Tuesdays and Thursdays at two.’ They don't know what else you have going on. But don't let other people manage your time. Manage your time yourself and put boundaries up to be able to say, here's what I can work here's what I can't work and don't be incredibly accessible. I learned that. Even current clients now that call me on the weekends, I don't answer the phone. I could answer the phone, but if I start answering the phone on the weekends, they're going to realize that I'm available whenever they want me to be and I don't want to do that, so that was another thing. Putting up some boundaries around time and time management was huge. Those were a couple. Rob:   That's a great lesson, although I'm going to test you.