TCC Podcast #126.5: Getting more from events with Zafira Rajan

Copywriter Zafira Rajan is our guest for this un-numbered episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. Zafira’s business has really taken off over the past year as she’s focused in on a niche and gotten herself in front of the right clients. We talked about that as well as how she has used events to connect with people in person. Here’s what we covered: •  her journey from Nairobi to Vancouver and journalist to copywriter •  the skills she learned as a journalist that make her a better copywriter •  the surprising interview question that often leads to a new idea •  why she doesn’t have a standard list of questions for interviews •  the little things she did to start her business the right way •  the systems she uses to make projects go more smoothly •  the changes she made to her business in the last year—and the impact it’s had •  how niching has *surprise*helped her business grow •  the packages she has created and what they include •  how she uses events to connect with clients •  her tips for doing well on instagram (and who to follow) •  how to think about brand messaging as a copywriter •  a few of the mistakes she’s made over the past year or two •  a few details about her women of color project •  why she’s excited for The Copywriter Club In Real Life Like we say, this is a good one. To hear it, click the play button below, or simply scroll down for a full transcript. If you prefer to listen while you work out or run errands, download it to your favorite podcast app.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: The Copywriter Accelerator The Copywriter Think Tank Laura Belgray Zafira's website Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Intro: Content (for now) Outro: Gravity   Full Transcript: Kira: What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That’s what Rob and I do every week at The Copywriter Club podcast. Rob:  You’re invited to join The Club as we chat with copywriter Zafira Rajan about how her background as a designer has made her a better copywriter, what’s she done to gain traction in her business, building relationships, and her secret for networking, and what she’s doing to support other women of color. Kira:  Welcome, Zafira. Rob:  Hey, Zafira. Zafira:  Hi. Kira:  It’s great to have you here. We met you a year and a half ago in the Accelerator Program, and then you moved into the Think Tank Mastermind Group. And then you and I have worked on several projects now, so I feel like we know you really well, and the more we chat with you about your business and how you’ve grown over the last year or so. Rob and I are both like, “We need to bring you onto the show and share what you’re doing, what you’re learning, because it’s working, so we should share with the other copywriters as well.” So excited that you’re here, and let’s kick this off with your story. How did you end up as a copywriter? Zafira:  Yeah, well it’s not a long journey. I realized pretty early on that I wanted to have a business of my own. I’m originally from Nairobi, Kenya, and I moved here to Vancouver about nine years ago, when I started university. My path probably started just even by doing an English Literature degree, writing every day, and I really thought at the time I would be going down the path towards journalism. And I was writing for the student paper, I started a platform for college women to share their voices that’s still alive today, and then I started managing a lot of social media accounts during that time and when I graduated I was doing marketing for the university. But I was also penning columns for publications here about global news and word just started getting out that I could write and I could manage social media and I could do a bunch of different things. So I started getting requests from people I knew, people who knew other people to do work for them, and then I suddenly had a full-time job but also tons of work to do on the side. So I started to think that I really wanted to make that leap to being my own boss, to managing my own schedule, but I wanted to do it really strategically. So I saw the perfect opportunity at my university to take on a marketing role that was just a 60% position so that I could still be earning money for a year, but having the time freed up to work on my own stuff and build up a business over the year. So I started doing that, and by the time that year wrapped, that was really like my deadline for me to be like, “Okay, we’re pressing ‘go’ on January 1st. Like, you are doing this on your own now,” and that was about three years ago now and I haven’t really looked back since. I mean, the types of copy I’ve written, the journey that I’ve taken, and the clients that I’ve worked with have really changed along the way. but that was how I made the leap initially. Rob:  Zafira, I’m really interested in knowing, when you were studying journalism what kinds of things you learned there that apply to how you write today. Zafira:  Oh my gosh, so much. The first thing I would say, really, is just learning how to listen to people really well, and that’s something that naturally, I’ve always been a listener in the room. I’m not the loudest person in a room. In fact, my parents never even knew when I was home, I was so quiet. But when I was trying to get into journalism, and this is like being 19, 20, and interviewing people who would lead frats, and who would be athletes who were about to go to the Olympics. It was just getting to talk to so many different kinds of people. I was sitting down with them for an hour, and having the opportunity to do that as a student where time feels different the way it does now, I could really sit and have those long conversations and listen to them really intently. But also just learn the art of asking the really good questions. Like I’ve always been so surprised by what I get at the end of an interview, like by, “Thanks, is there anything else you wish we would have talked about or you wanted to add?” And then my whole story comes out from there. But I think it’s really, yeah, the art of listening is the art of learning to ask the right questions, but also reading people really well and knowing where you can push them where to look back, and just talking to people. I don’t love being in a big crowd, but I really relish the power of that one-on-one connection, and that’s something that I think naturally, seamlessly floated into how I run my business today, especially when it comes to customer interviews or even just sales calls and letting my perspective clients just open up, is a skill that I really value and I’m so glad I have the opportunity to use it. Kira:  Can you dig a little bit more into that, because I don’t think it comes as easily or naturally to all of us where you can really understand when you should push a little bit more to get an answer and allow a conversation open up. So are there certain questions or any tips that you have for us when we’re in those customer interviews and we’re trying to build rapport and build trust quickly so that they can open up. Zafira:  That’s a good question. Honestly, I think it’s just seeing them as humans, not seeing them as another person you have to interview, or another person that’s on the list to check off. And bringing empathy to the table, for me, is huge, and I try to do that in everything I do. So listening for those moments where they’re pausing, and not even trying to talk over them or trying to introduce the next question, or seeing where it looks like they’re holding back and they might want to go a little further and just prompting them. But I think, just being able to approach it in a way that you’re not actually trying to massage the conversation. You’re just trying to create little bubbles and facets for things to open up in. And I really think that comes from just not even going through a standard list of questions, but going with the flow of the conversation, seeing naturally what that person wants to talk about, and what they’re gravitating towards. I think in the beginning when I started out, I always felt like, “I have to cover a checklist of things,” and I had to get all this information out. But I’ve learned over the years to just see where things go and let them take the lead sometimes, because they’re the ones that have everything to offer, not me, in that conversation, and to just trust that they’ll open up and they’ll share vulnerably with you, and just holding that space for them to do that. Rob:  So this isn’t really a question, but I want to agree wholeheartedly with what you were just saying. It seems to me that one of the mistakes that a lot of copywriters make is that we, when we’re doing our research, when we’re interviewing potential customers with products that we sell, we have this list of questions that we want to find out answers to. And because we’re stuck to the list, we don’t even let the people that we’re talking to go really deep with their story. And it seems like you’ve gotten really good at overcoming that stuck-on-the-list kind of a thing. Zafira:  Yeah, yeah. And I think that there’s no value in sticking to the list. You can always come back to the list. That’s what I mean when I say treat them like humans. If you met them outside of your zoom room, would you be like, “Wait a second, let me just go back to this question,” and, “Let me cut you off because I need to check this off my list.” You wouldn’t do that, and I found that there’s a lot of power in just treating it like a real conversation. More recently, I actually ended up getting two clients from my customer interviews just ... Kira:  Nice. Zafira:  ... because they were like,