The Copywriter Club Podcast

Join John Bejakovic, a savvy copywriter and author known for his insights on marketing and persuasion, as he unpacks the Ten Commandments of influence. He shares his two-year journey writing his book, revealing the importance of ethical communication. Discover how addressing product flaws can build trust, and learn the art of guiding thoughts through effective questioning. John emphasizes storytelling's role in persuasion and dives into the ethical dilemmas marketers face, providing invaluable lessons for anyone looking to enhance their influence.

Discover 21 creative strategies to connect with clients in the world of copywriting. Learn essential do's and don'ts for client outreach, and why securing initial clients matters more than getting lost in setup tasks. Explore the potential of unpaid projects to generate valuable referrals while understanding the balance of worth. Plus, check out useful resources like the Client Finding Ignition Kit and engaging platforms to enhance your client acquisition journey.

Topaz Hooper, a copywriter and founder of American Copywriter Co, shares her insights on navigating economic downturns. She emphasizes the importance of resilience and adaptability in freelance work. Topics include practical strategies for expense management, fostering client relationships, and diversifying income streams. Topaz also discusses the value of networking and maintaining a positive mindset during challenging times. Her experiences underscore the need for copywriters to evolve and innovate to thrive in a fluctuating market.

Andrea Sager, an attorney and founder of The Legalpreneur, offers invaluable legal insights for small businesses. She shares her journey from big law to helping entrepreneurs establish a solid legal foundation. Topics include the necessity of forming an LLC to protect personal assets and the significance of well-structured contracts to avoid pitfalls. Andrea also discusses navigating the legal complexities of AI-generated content and the importance of trademarks in safeguarding intellectual property. Tune in for essential advice that every copywriter and business owner should know!

Matt Barker, a Copywriter turned LinkedIn Audience Building Strategist, has over 170,000 followers on LinkedIn. In this insightful chat, he shares strategies for engaging potential clients through tailored content and profile optimization. Matt highlights the common pitfalls in audience growth and shares techniques to overcome self-promotion anxiety, especially for introverts. He emphasizes authentic connections over engagement pods and the importance of understanding your audience's emotions to effectively convert followers into clients.

I covered a lot of ideas in this episode with copywriter Grace Baldwin. We talked about product marketing, building an agency, conducting research (including one research technique you’ve never heard before) and the importance of community in growing your copywriting business. This is a good one. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.   Stuff to check out: Grace’s Newsletter The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Research Mastery   Full Transcript: Rob Marsh: Hidden inside this podcast are a couple of ideas that will take your research game to another level… and I promise at least one of these you’ve never heard before.  This is The Copywriter Club Podcast. I’ve interviewed close to 350 different copywriters and close to another hundred or so other experts on this podcast over the past eight years. And you would think that by now, I’ve heard just about everything there is to learn or know about copywriting, research, persuasion, finding clients and the many other topics we talk about every week. Often the topics we cover are good reminders of things I already know but maybe don’t apply to my business the way I should. Other times I hear ideas that I have implemented and what we talk about is a confirmation that what I’m doing in my business is helpful to my clients. And yet, I am constantly surprised by new ideas, new ways to do old things, and new insights that guests share that have never occurred to me before. That happened as I was recording this episode. My guest today is my friend Grace Baldwin. Grace is a copywriter with a background in strategy and product development. She’s in the process of building her own design agency. Grace has constantly leveled up as she’s built her business, working with bigger clients, taking on bigger projects and helping to create more impact for the brands she works on. While we were talking, she shared one way she does brand voice research—something I have never heard other copywriters doing and something that has never occurred to me before… and yet it’s the kind of idea that may help you as you conduct research for your clients, especially if they are in early stages and don’t yet have a lot of customers to intervew or survey.  After hearing that, I shared my favorite research technique for getting a founder to share the features, benefits and other details about a product in a way that helps me capture these for my sales copy. If you want to hear either or both of these ideas, you’re going to have to listen to the rest of the podcast. Before we do that though, since one of the topics we touch on in this podcast is research, I want to share with you all of my research secrets… the 4:20+ research method that helps copywriters like you uncover the ideas and insights you need to write great sales copy. I’ve shared them all… more than twenty different techniques for capturing ideas, plus all of the questions I use to learn more about my client, their product, their customers and their competitors as well as the documents you need to capture your research and several tutorials on how to use A.I. to speed up your processes and even help with your research itself.  You can learn more about this unique resource at thecopywriterclub.com/researchmastery … research mastery is all one word. Check out thecopywriterclub.com/researchmastery. I’ll link to that in the show notes so you can easily find the link if you can’t type the URL into your browser right now… thecopywriterclub.com/researchmastery And now, my interview with Grace Baldwin. Hey, Grace,  Grace Baldwin: Hi Rob.  Rob Marsh: I am so excited to have you here, so let’s let’s start with your stories. You were in the think tank. We hung out so much together a few years ago, but it’s been a little while. So catch me up and catch up our listeners. How did you get to be marketing consultant, copywriter for B to B, Tech brands, branding specialists, like all these things that you’re doing, and now you’re building an agency. Grace Baldwin: Yeah. So okay, the story starts kind of while I was still in school, so I kind of became a copywriter on accident, like everybody or like, I think most of the people that are on the show, right, never really imagined that this is kind of what life would look like. But when I was in high school, I would always really had fun writing like flyers, and, you know, I threw parties in my basement, and I loved writing the invitations. And then around my senior year of college, I kind of realized, Okay, wait, people will pay me to do this, which was amazing.  And then after school, I moved to Amsterdam and fell into the world of B to B technology. I started working in ed tech. Then I went to e-commerce tech, and then finally ended up in, like, in a space tech company, which was really interesting. And that’s kind of when I came into Think Tank. I was working at a space tech company. I knew I always wanted to be freelance, and so I was really building the foundations through the Think Tank while I was still there, and then, since 2022 I’ve been out on my own, and now I’m building a branding agency. Rob Marsh: So let’s talk about that. Because, yeah, building an agency. I mean, on the one hand, it’s pretty easy to say, Oh yeah, I’m building an agency. On the other hand, there is so much work that goes into it. So yeah. Tell us about that. Grace Baldwin: Yeah, I tried starting to build an agency last year, and I kind of burned myself out on it because I didn’t have any of the processes or anything in place. And to be fair, it’s still a fairly new thing this time around, but this time, I have a co-founder who has some experience with building agencies and managing people, and so that’s making a big difference. And we’re working with, we’re going to be working with a coach to help us avoid some of the big mistakes that I think I started to make last year when I was trying to do it by myself. Yeah, Rob Marsh: That makes a ton of sense. So who are you trying to serve? And like, What is the vision for the agency? What does that look like?  Grace Baldwin: Yeah. So the vision for the agency right now is to be really working with innovative technology companies. So and when I say innovative, I mean kind of like deep innovation. So my background is in space tech and in the energy industry as well. And we want to be working with companies that are supporting we’re calling it planet tech, right? So within agriculture, within space, within Climate Technology, just people that are making really interesting solutions that are kind of what I like about beauty is like, it’s kind of the back doors of the world, and I want to help them tell their stories.  Rob Marsh: I love that, and I love the idea of planet tech, that’s just a really unique way to talk about it. Grace Baldwin: Yeah, we’re kind of kicking around different names and everything right now, but that’s kind of what we keep coming back to. Rob Marsh: Okay, I want to come back to this, but I want to kind of jump back to as you were getting started as a writer. Obviously, you had some in house experiences, but your goal was always to be freelance, and you were freelancing on the side. Tell us just how you launched that side of your business. You know, how you got started, how you found your first clients… Grace Baldwin: So the first clients, so I discovered the copywriter club, actually, when I was still in school, and I joined the free Facebook group then and listen, I binged every episode of this podcast. And maybe, maybe it wasn’t when I was still in school, but was within the first year. And I’ve kind of found my first clients through these Facebook groups, and maybe not necessarily the copywriter club one, but through another writing Facebook group. And that’s kind of how it all got started.  And then for two and a half, three years I was I ended up working in house, but I always had this. I was very tapped into the copywriting club community in the backs, in the back of things, and continued trying to build up a brand while I was doing it, which then helped when I got laid off, for sure.  Rob Marsh: And as far as like reaching out to clients, were you pitching clients individually? Were you posting content and clients were finding you like, how did that all work? Grace Baldwin: In the beginning, it was pitching and just connecting with people on, yeah, in these Facebook groups and just saying, hey, you know, I’m looking for work, anything I can help out with. And then eventually, eventually, when I got more serious about my business, I started posting content on, posting content on LinkedIn, and people were coming to me,  Rob Marsh: Yeah, I’ve seen a lot of your content on LinkedIn. You seem to be pretty, pretty good at the whole LinkedIn game. I mean, spill your secrets on that as well. Grace Baldwin: I don’t really have any secrets. So whenever I have talked to Chris Collins about this too, but I say that the one of the best things about my business, and one of the worst things is that whenever I have an idea, I can put it on the internet, and that’s kind of how I write content. Rob Marsh: So you’re just like, oh, it’s Tuesday morning. You’re not thinking, I’ve got to get a post up. It’s just whenever an idea occurs to you, you share it,  Grace Baldwin: Yeah, or whenever I see something that one of my clients is struggling with, and if I am able to see kind of a connective thread between what client is struggling with and what client B is struggling with. I’ll post about my thoughts on it, not obviously naming my clients names, but just talking about the larger problem that I’m noticing or the different trends that I’m seeing across whatever is happening the different conversations that I’m having.  Rob Marsh: I like that approach because it immediately suggests that you’re the expert working on big problems. And I think when readers see it, they’re like, oh, wait, I have that problem. As opposed to so much of the other content that’s on LinkedIn, it’s like, you know, well, I mean, all the listicle type stuff that’s just, it has been out there and is over, but even a lot of the shared templates that we have for hooks and that kind of stuff. Just, I don’t know, so much of LinkedIn just feels templatized and un-useful. Grace Baldwin: Yeah, and I think that that’s a trend I’m seeing, you know, online in general, in LinkedIn specifically, is that people want to hear your stories and your experience. It’s very easy to for anybody to, especially with chat GPT or with AI to, you know, create a post that’s like three messaging tips, but I think people want to hear more about what you did and what the lessons that you learned and how you applied them moving forward, and that’s kind of what I’ve embodied.  Rob Marsh: And do you take the same approach then, like as you’re thinking about your clients with your agency or for freelance. Are you ever helping them talk about that stuff too? Or are you 100% in on branding? Grace Baldwin: We’re kind of 100% in on branding right now, but that might, you know, might evolve. But as part of the branding, what we’re trying to do is give people, give these companies a perspective on the world, or, like, a point of view on the world. That’s a big pillar of what we do, and then they can use that as a filter for whenever they’re creating content. Rob Marsh: So let’s talk about that process, because that’s really interesting to me. I mean, again, so many of us work with our clients. We touch their brand. Sometimes we even help them develop their brand, voice or, you know, give them input on their the visuals that they’re working on. But I mean, it’s a, it’s a really involved process to get this right. So will you walk us through the process that you go through, and so we can see, kind of, like, how that all comes together?  Grace Baldwin: Yeah, definitely. So it kind of, it’s a it’s evolving now that I’m working with a design partner, but historically, what I have done in, like I when I was working in house, I discovered the world of Product Marketing, and I realized, okay, a lot of the foundations of conversion copywriting overlap with product marketing and, um, so, and that means really starting with, you know, the positioning of the business and understanding where they sit, where this business sits in the product sits in the eyes of the consumer, right? And what is unique about the product, and what is the story about the product that we can tell, rather than the story that we want or that we you know, the client wants to tell. Because sometimes what the product does and what the client wants to tell the world are two different things. And you know, if you want to sell the product, you have to find them the angle that works for that product. So that’s what we start with, that positioning, and from that a message usually kind of develops, and we also create the next step is like personality and perspective. So we try and create a brand archetype and point of view through which they can filter all of their business making decisions through, and then only after all of the positioning messaging, and then kind of messaging concept is done. Do we move into the brand? And that’s where we take the message, take these two couple different messaging ideas, and combine them with the brand so it’s a unified concept. Because what I’ve learned is that it’s very easy for companies to do positioning, do messaging, and they’re these kind of islands, and then brand comes in afterwards and tries to retrofit onto the strategy. But what we’re trying to do is align strategy, or bring brand into the strategy side of things. Rob Marsh: Okay, I want to go deeper on this, if we can.  Grace Baldwin: Yes, I’m rambling a little bit, but yeah,  Rob Marsh: It’s not even rambling. It totally makes sense. But I think we’re covering a lot of really deep ground, really fast? Yes, yes. Can we? So it sounds like we can kind of break down the process into three major steps. One is front end research. And then there’s some some strategy around identifying the archetype and what that strategy looks like moving forward. And then there’s branding beyond that. Is that? Is that correct? Grace Baldwin: Yeah, so that’s a much better way of saying what I was trying to say. But what we call it the brand stack, and we have the three it is exactly three parts. It’s first is like positioning strategy, then it’s personality, and then it’s presentation. So the actual, you know, visuals and how it actually looks out in the world. Rob Marsh: Awesome. I like that. So let’s talk a little bit about your research process then, because this is obviously where all of those ideas come from. What are you doing that helps you surface the unique things to help you identify things like voice archetype, the different things that become part of that brand?  Grace Baldwin: Yeah, that’s a really good question. So a lot of my clients, if I can talk to customers, that’s amazing, or if I can listen in on recordings with customers, recordings with customers, that’s amazing. But I have found with my clients, it’s sometimes more useful to try and find I’m a big fan of using podcasts for voice of customer research, and when I say podcasts, I mean like peer to peer podcasts for their target audience. And I like this because often I find that if you’re interviewing a customer, they’re gonna their natural tendency is to try and be helpful, and that is skewed, or that they’ll provide a skewed perspective. But when you listen to a podcast that says that’s all about you know how to be the best Customer Success Manager of the Year. You find out what their deeper values are and what they really are focused on in their work. And so that’s kind of where I start in terms of desk research. Rob Marsh: That’s a really good idea. I hadn’t actually ever thought of that before, but I mean, that feels like a game changer in some ways. Grace Baldwin: So that really emerged a couple of years ago. I was working with a client on a landing page, and I was doing research, and I didn’t have access to their customers. So I started, it was around the end of the year, so I started listening to a couple of these podcasts, and I realized that what we were trying to put out into the world about this product was wasn’t actually matching what our what in this case, it was like what a customer success managers actual KPIs are, and what they really cared about. And so. We were able to tweak the messaging a bit to be way more powerful, just because we were a fly on the wall, rather than, you know, trying to have direct conversations with the client.  Rob Marsh: Yeah. I mean, I’m just kind of like thinking through how I could use that same idea on my own, with my own clients as well. Because again, I think it’s kind of a game changer. So when you’re doing that, what are the kinds of things that you’re looking for, or that you’re pulling out? Is it just stuff that feels unfamiliar, or like, how do you, how do you identify the ideas like, oh, wait a second, that’s something that I can build on. Grace Baldwin: That’s a good question. Normally, it’s just kind of intuitive, you know, like just actively listening and trying to see, okay, what is you what is the pattern that’s emerging? What is the thing that they keep bringing up? And it’s nice if I can find, like, two or three podcasts that are in the same realm, and you can hear, okay, this, this idea is echoed across a couple different spaces, and that’s where you’re able to find something. But then from there, you take that research, plus whatever research you have from your internal workshops with the client. And then that’s kind of you start iterating on concepts from that, okay. Rob Marsh: And then as you start to move into step two, how does your process sort of evolve so that you’re turning ideas and insights into strategy? Grace Baldwin: So what we do, we take, we try and approach it from a messaging concept perspective, which is something that I learned from, really, from reading breakthrough advertising Right? Which the whole what we try and do is we look at the market sophistication, the customer stage of awareness. They’re like mass desires, which is what we identified in the first stage, along with the product capabilities. And then we create, we’re trying to create two to three different concepts from there, and each concept will be have a slightly different flavor. And then we, at that point, we also introduce the beginning of a design concept as well, because what we want is that the brand’s visual design matches the overall message and positioning. And then from the client, then kind of picks from there, and whatever concept they go with is how we start building out the personality. Rob Marsh: So I know I’m putting you on the spot here a little bit with this question, but can you give me an example of how that works?  Grace Baldwin: We did this with a client recently where what we did there in the energy industry, and so we kind of worked with them, and we did some research in their early stage. So we didn’t have time for a ton of research. They didn’t have any customers or anything. But we presented a couple different options. And said, Okay, we can go basically in this direction with your brand, or we can go in this direction with your brand, and the messaging is slightly different here, because it might be, for example, you might have, like, more cool, toned, like, precise design, you might have cool, more cool tone, precise designs, and then your tone might also change slightly there. Or you could have something that’s a bit warmer and a bit more of a like a lover brand archetype. But we gave them two options, and then they picked one, and we went with That’s it.  Rob Marsh: And when it comes to the kinds of clients that you’re working with, it seems like there’s some real trade off opportunities for, you know, again, we’re talking planet tech. So, you know, you want people to like you, or to see that you’re doing good things for the planet, but at the same time your tech and so you’ve got a side of the brand that is scientific and functional and delivers results, right? And so there’s, it’d be interesting to balance the two. Grace Baldwin: Exactly. And a lot of clients that we talk to don’t, they don’t want to scream necessarily that they’re eco friendly, right? I mean, that’s not their main purpose. You also want to be able to avoid greenwashing if that’s not the main driver. A lot of times, I’ve worked on products where the main driver and the main value of the product is not about reducing carbon emissions, it’s about helping the team operate more efficiently, which is then a business outcome, rather than, like a climate outcome.  Rob Marsh: And obviously, if you’re showing up and accused of greenwashing, that can hurt your brand. Tell me about the last stage, which is really design and copy. How does that all come together? Grace Baldwin: So from that point, it’s just a matter of refinement. Once we kind of pick a direction, my design partner, he goes and he, you know, works his he’s like the creative genius, and so he works with magic on that. And then I will create the brand voice guide, and we bounce each one of the nice things about having a co founder is that we can bounce the ideas off of each other and make sure that it’s all aligned. And then we put it together in a final presentation. And then from there, we can work with the client on web copy and any other assets.  Rob Marsh: Okay, so I love this process, and right now the agency is just you and your partner, but like, What is the vision as far as team goes? Grace Baldwin: That’s a really good question. You know, we’d like to keep it pretty small, but you. We’re still kind of in the early stages of defining what we want the vision to look like, okay, but we both want it to be something that feels easy and fun.  Rob Marsh: Yeah, exactly the kind of business that I want, too. So what has copywriting taught you about building brands and branding? Grace Baldwin: That’s a really good question. I think the answer is everything. I think that you know, and admittedly, I’m biased, right, like, as you know, I’ve worked for 9, 10 years as a copywriter, and I really think that copy is the foundation. And I think that what it’s taught me is that copy needs to be involved earlier on in the process. I think that often copywriting, and specifically, tone of voice gets kind of added on afterwards. But really, copy is how you shape your messaging. It’s how you shape the presentation to the world. It’s how you shape your you have to come up with slogans and headlines and things like that. And it should be leading. It’s strategy incarnate. And it should be leading kind of the crusade, Rob Marsh: I think a lot of copywriters see it this way. Sometimes designers don’t see it this way. And yeah, it’s interesting. You know, when you’ve got a design partner, really, the real answer is that both design and copy should be in the meeting from the beginning. And that strategy impacts both copy and design, although it tends to show up in the copy more obviously, at least to me. Grace Baldwin: We’re biased that, yeah. I mean, if we had my designer on the phone, he might be like, he might have something different to say, but, but, but no, I agree. I think that, like, I have a massive respect for design, and I think that that’s why we work very well together. He also has a huge respect for copy, and we both think about it strategically, and that’s why we’ve moved towards this kind of concepting, idea of presenting the ideas together and then so that our clients can sort of see how they work together. Rob Marsh: Yeah, I like that. I’ve been and I’ve seen so many situations where design and copy, it’s not that they’re necessarily at cross purposes, but because one, you know, person is advocating for the importance of copy, and the other is advocating for the importance of design, you end up with, you know, a designer saying, well, the copy’s got to fit in this space or or The copywriter demanding that there’s got to be, you know, additional space for storytelling, and it just can create conflict in ways that are detrimental to finishing a project. Grace Baldwin: Totally, yeah, and I’ve just learned that it’s all about compromise. And I’ve been blessed to work with amazing designers when I was in house, and, you know, just throughout my career and the great ones, see you as a teammate. Rob Marsh: So I asked about copywriting, teaching you about brand, but you’ve also got, like, a massive amount of experience on the product side and on product development. So how does that impact what we do with brands? Grace Baldwin: Yeah, I think that kind of I said, what I think product marketing has taught me is that branding really needs to be around the product right? And I think that too often there’s a disconnect between what the brand is saying and what a product actually does. And so it’s the same thing, like your product team also needs to be involved in the branding process because they are understanding, or, you know, they’re shaping what it actually is, and they know the technical details about it, and they’re able to give insights that other people on the team can’t, or, like, a commercial team can’t, Rob Marsh: Have you brought some of that into your process as well? Again, because that’s your brain is in that process. You’ve done it so much. How does that show up in in the process that you do as you develop copy and and design together? Grace Baldwin: So one of the things we really do is we try and always start with a product demo. And for my clients, you know, I’m working with on client, working on projects where with clients who are truly experts in a very specific thing, right? And there’s no way that I can match that. But so what I tell my clients in our process in general, is that it’s very collaborative, and I can help with the strategy and I can help with the words, but I really need their help with all the nuance. Rob Marsh: I like that. One of my secrets for writing sales pages, I like to start with a product demo also, because to me, if you have the person who build the thing try to sell it to you, they’re talking through what they think are the most important points, features, benefits, whatever it is. Now, they’re not always their best their own best customer, but like that as a starting point. So you understand, you know what the founder or the developer or whatever, like this is the thing that I built for the thing that it solves is immensely helpful, absolutely, and it helps with products. You know, if you’re talking to somebody that, or if your audience is very technical, they want to know all the technical details. It’s important to get that insight from, you know, the person developing it. But it’s also important to get the sales pitch from sales and sort of see where there’s overlap. But yeah, having those technical details and the stories behind, behind specific features, that’s where you can those are opportunities for differentiation. Yeah, one of the things that you know, as we’re chatting, I realized, obviously, you’re doing way more than writing copy, your leading strategy. And there may be a lot of people who are listening, thinking, Okay, how do I go from the person who’s asked to develop, you know, a couple of emails or to write a blog post or a sales page to the point where I’m actually advising my clients on what to do? How did you jump from copywriter to strategist? Grace Baldwin: That’s, I think my honest answer is that I mean, working in house for several years was really, really helpful in that, because I got to understand how, how, and I worked in house at startups, right? So, I mean, where I was on a marketing team of maybe three people, I was the only writer, and so I was doing all of the writing. And I think understanding kind of how my clients businesses operate, helps, helps a lot. But then I also think that just time and, like, really digging into the principles of conversion copywriting has helped me be able to leverage strategy so much more. Rob Marsh: So do you think it takes time then, like, does it? Is there a short cut to learning strategy or to being a strategist?  Grace Baldwin: I think just doing it, you know, over and over, you learn every time that you do something new, and I’m continuing to learn, right? But, yeah, this is it. I do think that experience helps. Rob Marsh: That’s probably an obvious question, because I was thinking the same thing as you’re answering that I’m like, I was just working with a copywriter or marketer who’s building her business, and, you know, is talking about the things that she wants to help do. And the her biggest problem is that she hasn’t actually done a lot of this stuff, you know, at this point. And we see this a lot, where people try to step into a role that they haven’t actually had any success in, but they’ve read about it, or they’ve learned how to write a prompt for AI to tell them what to do, and the outcomes are just not the same. Grace Baldwin: And in that case, you know, if you’re freelance too, something that I learned from Annie Bacher actually, is to just subcontract for other copywriters that are where you want to be, right? And that’s something that I subcontracted for Annie I’ve subcontracted for Aaron Pennings. I’ve subcontracted for several people, and I did it because at the, you know, at the time, I didn’t have time to manage my own clients, and I was also just kind of burnt out. But I also learned a ton from their processes as well. Also subcontracting for agencies helps me understand, help me understand and get that experience, because agencies are just doing it so frequently. Rob Marsh: I think a large part of mastering anything, obviously, is the doing. And I love that approach, working with a variety of other copywriters who are a couple steps ahead of you, who can offer coaching. You can see their processes, you can learn from them, and agencies like you said, this makes it’s, it’s almost understating it to say, Oh, that makes sense, yeah, because it’s almost like, No, this is the path. This is actually how you get great. Grace Baldwin: It’s really easy to say, but then, I mean, you have to actually do it, which takes. I mean, I’m in year three, year three of doing my business full time, and I’m only now just kind of getting to the point where I, like, am able to put all the puzzle pieces together. But yeah, it just takes. If I could go back and tell myself, you know, give myself advice, it would be just relax and enjoy the journey.  Rob Marsh: And so when you talk about subcontract for copywriters, one of the things that makes that happen is that you were able to build relationships with copywriters, other copywriters. How did you do that? Grace Baldwin: Think Tank. Think Tank, The Copywriter Club. I mean, I’m in a Slack group now with like seven other people that I met through the copywriter club, and I talked to them daily I commute. I cannot emphasize how important community has been to me over this journey. Rob Marsh: This is one of the things that I’ve come to really late in my career. That is one of those no does, but I tried for so long to be the the solitary copywriter. You know, I can do it. I can find my clients. I can do the work. And when I got into my first mastermind, surrounded by other copywriters as well, I’ve mentioned the story on the podcast in the past. But I just remember in that first meeting, kind of having an aha moment where I was like, Wait a second. I have so much to learn from, from these other people in the room. Like I thought I was good, I was good, but when I could see their advantages, what they were doing differently from what I was it was, I mean, it was like, I turned the dial from, you know, three, where I was playing around, to like, nine or 10. Grace Baldwin: I am just leaving a mastermind right now, actually, where, you know, I joined wanting to be the dumbest person in the room, which is the same thing that happened when I joined Think Tank. I really wanted to be, you know, the youngest person, or like, the least experienced there. But with both of these experiences. I saw where other people were operating at and I knew that there was a path to get there, and it was just eye opening. And then you also, you just meet people and you can who can empathize with your daily struggles. Rob Marsh: Yeah, yeah. I mean, again, it was a total game changer for me as well, yeah. So tell me about some of the things that maybe you do outside of work that actually influence the way you think about business or make you a better writer. Grace Baldwin: Well, I run a lot. I just signed up for my first ultra marathon last night, actually, so that’ll be happening in October. But yeah, running and endurance sports is something that I never did that as a kid. I only got into it. I got into it in like, 2018 and fell in love with it, but it’s just taught me a lot about, like, slowing down and pacing myself and not burning myself out. Rob Marsh: So I also have taken up running the last few years. I used to think of myself as a cyclist, but getting my bike out and, you know, pumping the tires full of air and putting on the kit and road biking has become a lot more dangerous with cars that, you know, don’t seem to be looking for bikes. So I’ve run a lot more. I don’t know that I call myself a runner. I’m more of a plodder, maybe a jogger. I can’t even envision running an ultra marathon like that is so beyond me. Grace Baldwin: Me either Rob That’s nervous about it that seems that’s I back in my biking days like I could knock off 100 miles, you know, in a day, or whatever. That was no big deal.  Rob Marsh: But an ultra marathon is a whole other kind of torture… Grace Baldwin: It’s the same thing that we were talking about, right? Like, when you’re just getting started, or think there’s no way I can. Mean, I remember, I had some friends who ran a half marathon when I was I think we were 19, and I remember thinking, I will never do that. And then, you know, here I am now getting ready to run an ultra marathon. It’s just something that’s slow, and you get better at over time, and you slowly improve, and your endurance grows, and it just gets easier, or it doesn’t get easier, but you get better at it. Rob Marsh: I actually saw somebody mention that yesterday. It’s like, hard things. Hard Things don’t get easier, but your strength increases your ability to do hard things increases. Yeah, totally. So maybe marathons is a good or races, whatever is maybe a good place to start developing some of those discipline skills that we need to succeed as copywriters.  Grace Baldwin: 100%. For me, at least, it has been an amazing way to learn all learn all those lessons in like a safe container, right? And learn to trust myself, and also be able to tell the difference between when something is tough but manageable but or tough but unmanageable. Rob Marsh: Let’s talk a little bit about working out of the states, being a being an expat copywriter. Oh my gosh, yeah. Obviously, there’s some challenges with that. How have you made it work?  Grace Baldwin: Well, challenges is kind of an understatement. There’s a lot, you know, I can tell I moved abroad before my prefrontal cortex developed, because I didn’t, never considered international retirement planning, which is a whole minefield of regulations. But we won’t. We don’t need to get into that. Maybe we should get it. My advice for anybody, if who wants to move abroad, or at least out of the US, is find a good tax attorney to talk to before you do it. But beyond, beyond that, I mean, it’s I just, I moved here for love. I’m still with my boyfriend, and just, yeah, it’s been an amazing adventure. Rob Marsh: I’ve talked about this on the podcast in the past as well, but I am all in on travel. My wife and I, we kind of have a motto, you know, experiences over things. Experiences are better than things. And so every chance we get it’s like, hey, let’s hop on an airplane. You know, who cares about the new car or whatever? You know, let’s do that. And so part of me is jealous that you get to have this full time experience in Amsterdam that you know so many of us, and when we travel for vacations, you know, it’s a totally different experience as well, because you’re trying to hit the three or four highlights. You’re always in a hurry, you’re standing in lines. And when you can actually do it slow, you know, actually experience the culture in the way that you are. I’m, I’m so insanely jealous of of your experience there, Grace Baldwin: Yeah, but then at a certain point, it just becomes kind of normal every day, although, as an, you know, I call myself more of an immigrant than an expat, but I still discover new things about the country on a weekly basis, especially if I like I was at a family reunion for my boyfriend’s family, and I was around a bunch of more Dutch people than I normally am around, and I learned, and there’s just all these like small little things that you never will learn unless you’re actually. Surrounded by that culture, Rob Marsh: When we were living in France, I’m as I’m saying this. I’m like, nobody wants to hear Rob. I want to hear this. I didn’t know this. Yeah, when we were living in France, I realized how different FedEx is in in France than it is in the States. You know, when you would order something from FedEx? Well, here it shows, you know, sometimes, like, place the order by four o’clock in the afternoon. It’ll be there by 7am right in France, you know, you had, we at least had to go to the shop to pick it up. And oftentimes the shop was closed because, yeah, they just decided to spray off. Yeah, like, like, the immediacy of American culture is just not a thing. And nobody cares, you know? And so sometimes it would take us two or three visits to the place where our package would be delivered just to get it. So those kinds of culture differences, I mean, they’re kind of funny to talk about, but also when you experience them, it’s in some ways, like when you’re talking about being in a community of copywriters, it opens your minds to just different things, different ways that people do things. And in some ways, it’s like a creative playground that just gets you thinking in different ways, Grace Baldwin: Absolutely, and I think, you know, something that I related when i My first job was, you know, in a Dutch company, and I had a Dutch manager, and my my manager was Dutch, it was me, and then our designer was Canadian, and there we were working on a website project, and my design, my designer, who’s a very dear friend of mine, now, we were stressed out about getting it done on time, because, I mean, we were very deadline driven, and my and it caused, it caused tension in the group. And my manager said to us, guys, like, we can always move a deadline, which was something that she and I were not we’re not. There was a concept we were not familiar with, right? Because we had grown up in these cultures of, okay, there’s a deadline. We have to hit it. And one of the things that I like about Dutch culture, in which I have tried to embrace in my work life, is that Dutch people believe that you have eight hours to work and that’s it, and if you’re working beyond eight hours is a sign that you weren’t efficient with the time that you have, rather than a symbol that you’re going over, above and beyond, which is something I really appreciate, Rob Marsh: Yeah, something I probably should adopt into my life when I’m sitting at my desk, you know, seven o’clock at night trying to finish something up.  Grace Baldwin: I mean, it’s 630 in the afternoon for me, or in the evening right now for me, so I’m totally guilty of overworking as well, but it was nice when I was there were more boundaries when I was in house and like, salaried. Rob Marsh: How much? How much does fun play into that kind of thinking as well? Because oftentimes what I find is, if I am still at my desk at 630 or seven, it’s because I’m actually enjoying the work, and not because it’s a deadline I’ve got to hit tomorrow. Is that like part of the consideration as well, or is it just like, nope, you’ve got your seven and a half eight hours, and then you’re done. Grace Baldwin: I think it’s a consideration of you know? I mean, if you’re having fun with something, nobody’s gonna say no, but, but I have found that managers will reprimand you for working overtime. Even if you are having fun, they’ll say, Okay, well, go, you know, take a half day off, then if you were working on this on Saturday.  Rob Marsh: So for those of us who manage ourselves, then we just need to be better managers. Give ourselves the hardest part, though, right? Grace Baldwin: Yeah, I’m a very bad manager of myself, not a bad, not a very bad one, but I’m always learning to be a bit kinder, yeah. Rob Marsh: So what are the biggest things that you’ve struggled with as you’ve, you know, gone from, you know, moving over, taking that first job, you know, product management, copywriting now, launching your agency. What have been the biggest challenges that you face now, Grace Baldwin: You mean right now, or through the process?  Rob Marsh: Through the process… Grace Baldwin: I think a big I mean moving abroad, you, there’s always a kind of a sense of loneliness that you have to content, you have to contend with because is your you’re very obvious the minute I open even though I speak Dutch, the minute I open my mouth, people know that I’m not Dutch, which is a bit isolating at times. So that’s all about, like, you know, I’ve been, I joined run clubs. I’m trying to build more community here. And so that’s, that’s something that has been a struggle, and that’s also, you know, in terms of business, building those, realizing that’s just a big theme for me, is okay, it’s about finding the right people who can support you. So that’s been a challenge and a learning lesson, but also, yeah, lots of freedom and room to play and explore and try out new things. So the upsides as well.  Rob Marsh: There’s definitely a part of me that’s very jealous of the business that you’ve built. It sounds like a ton of fun. The projects that you get to work on are game changers. So, yeah, just listening to you talk about what you’ve built since the last time we hung out together, which was, you know, five years ago, it’s amazing to see how far you’ve come. Grace Baldwin: Yeah, thanks. Sometimes, sometimes it feels like I haven’t made it that far, but then I’ve had. Look back at where I was five years ago when I first joined Think Tank, it’s a world of difference. Rob Marsh: So as you think about your business now, what’s next for you? What are the big challenges that you have coming up with the things you’re most excited about? Grace Baldwin: I’m definitely excited about building out this agency and building it up and turning it into something recognizable and that, you know, my co-founder and I, we really just want to focus on doing great work and delivering awesome results. And I’m just excited about leaning into that, and, yeah, exploring leveling up in a new way. Rob Marsh: So for those of us who want to watch what you’re doing and hear about, you know, the successes as you move forward, where should we go? Where should we be looking for your latest writings? Grace Baldwin: So LinkedIn is one place. I also have a sub stack where I’m trying to just kind of document what I’m learning. It’s not, I call it a semi regular missive, because I don’t promise to put it out every week, but I’m trying to do every other week, minimum. But those are probably the two places and Rob Marsh: I’ve seen some of what you’ve put on sub stack, documenting, you know, what you’re learning a lot of the process that you’re going through. So I highly recommend hopping on Grace’s newsletter, checking out what she has to say, because I promise you’re going to be inspired. Grace Baldwin: Thank you. Yeah, those are good words, yeah. Rob Marsh: Well, it’s and it’s been awesome catching back up with you grace and seeing what you’re up to in your business. So thanks for taking the time to talk to me. Grace Baldwin: Thank you for having me on Rob. I mean, I was telling my business partner that it’s such an honor to be on this podcast, because I hope you recognize how big of an impact you have had on people’s careers and with the copywriter club. I mean, I’m just one example, and I’m really grateful for the work that you do.  Rob Marsh: You are so kind to say that I really appreciate it. I may just have to take that clip out and play it for me every morning.  Grace Baldwin: Make it your alarm to wake you up to every morning.  Rob Marsh: Well, people have been listening to me prattle on for so many years, so it’s only fair. Grace Baldwin: That’s only you know only fair, I guess then, Rob Marsh: Thanks Grace for sharing the details of your career journey and what you’re building at your agency today. I want to echo what Grace said about finding a community of copywriters who can help you on your own career journey. I’ve told my own story several times, but it bears repeating the lesson, surrounding myself with several other good copywriters who were willing to read my work, share leads and clients, and even just talk about what is working in their busineses right now was a complete gamechanger for me personally, and I’ve seen it have the same effect in hundreds of other copywriter’s businesses too. If you’re missing that, you should check out The Copywriter Underground at thecopywriterclub.com/tcu where we are focusing on creating more opportunities for copywriters to come together and share these kinds of business changing ideas.  Coming back to our interview, I’ve linked to Grace’s newsletter  in case you want to follow her journey. You should also check out Grace on LinkedIn where she shared other ideas she’s working on with her clients. And finally, I mentioned this at the top of the show, our course, Research Mastery will give you the ideas and insights you need to write better copy, get more impressive results, and increase sales and conversions that will keep clients coming back to you for more. You can learn more about this course at thecopywriterclub.com/researchmastery … research mastery is all one word.

If you want to write more persuasive copy, you need better insights from your research. But how do you get them? Sarah Levinger is my guest for the 448th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast and we talked about research insights, trend spotting, how A.I. can distort your research analysis, and how to make your copy more persuasive. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.   Stuff to check out: Sarah’s Twitter Sarah’s Community Tether Insights The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground   Full Transcript: Rob Marsh: Can psychology help you capture and hold the attention of your readers… then sell more of your products to your customers? This is The Copywriter Club Podcast. On last week’s episode of the podcast, we talked about buyer psychology and how to use it to sell your products and services. It’s a great interview and I recommend you don’t miss it. This week’s episode is a kind of part 2 to that interview. In addition to specific persuasion techniques, today we’re going to go deep on research and discovering insights that a good copywriter can build a sales argument. If you want to use the techniques we talked about last week, what we talk about in this interview will give you the baseline insights to make them so much more effective. My guest today is Sarah Levinger, founder of Tether, a research insights platform that helps uncover emotional, behavioral, and identity-driven insights so marketers can connect on a deeper, more human level with their customers. And she uses A.I. to augment the process. Sarah walks through the process and framework she created for finding the kinds of insights that resonates with customers. She categorizes comments and research data by emotion, which leads to a better set of avatars and marketing ideas based on emotion rather than taglines or words that get a little tired as prospects see them over and over in your ads and other marketing.  Then Sarah goes even deeper than feelings to uncover beliefs—she talks about why in this interview. I think you’re going to like what she has to share about that. Sarah also mentioned something about A.I. that I hadn’t considered before that kind of shifted the way I’m thinking about using tools like Claude and ChatGPT to analyze data. If you don’t understand this change, if you use A.I. in your research or analysis process, your copy will probably not connect as well you expect. Before we get to my interview with Sarah, this episode is brought to you by The Copywriter Underground. If you haven’t jumped in to see what the Underground includes, now is the time. It’s guaranteed, which means you can join and if you don’t find the resources you need to grow your business, just let us know and we’ll refund your money. The Underground includes more than 70 different workshops—and accompanying playbooks to help you gain the skills and strategies you need to build your business. This week we’re adding another expert workshop all about how to create the perfect for you copywriter website. If your website doesn’t stand out or doesn’t help you land clients, you’ll definitely want to join us. The Playbooks make it easy to find quick solutions to the challenges you face in your business everything from finding clients, conducting sales calls, using A.I., building authority on LinkedIn or YouTube or Pinterest, and dozens of other workshops. You also get dozens of templates including a legal agreement you can use with your clients, monthly coaching, regular copy and funnel critiques, and more. You can learn more and join today by visiting thecopywriterclub.com/tcu.  And now, my interview with Sarah Levinger… Sarah, welcome to the podcast. Before we hit record, I told you I’ve been wanting to have you on for quite a while. I’ve been following your stuff online. The way you talk about persuasion psychology, it just rings my bell. So I’m so glad to have you here. But before we get into all of this stuff, how did you get to where you are, where you’re basically, you know, this marketing consultant to DDC companies using psychology to help, you know, increase responses, all of that kind of stuff. How did you get here? Sarah Levinger: Oh, gosh, that’s that I don’t even know that the journey that I’ve taken to get there has been a really interesting one, and I really do think I landed here on purpose at this particular time. So I started in marketing when I was 21, really, really young. I went to school to be an equine scientist. I wanted to be a vet for horses. I thought I wanted to be an equine scientist and go be like an equine vet. And then I found out very quickly, I don’t like blood, but I don’t like needles. This is not for me. So during that first, like, college year, I took a course in InDesign. Does anybody remember what InDesign was? I miss that platform so much. Oh my gosh. I really, really enjoyed designing in there. So that was, like an elective that I took, and I just got so hooked. I was like, This is so fun, like, I love the art side of this.  So I moved back home. I was up in Wyoming for a minute, and then I moved back home with my parents. Went back to college for graphic design, and I had a professor in my second semester of college who was like, you know, if you’re good at this and you really enjoy doing design or marketing or art or whatever it is, you don’t have to have a degree. You can just go work. And I was like, what I don’t have to pay for college? Great. I don’t like college anyway. So here we go. So I quit college, and then I basically just, like, freelance for the next 10 years straight. And it was interesting, because this was, like, it, I mean, this was 2010 2011 so it was right at the start of YouTube being a thing. Tutorials online were just barely beginning to like, blow up. So there wasn’t really a whole lot of information on how to market or how to do things online in the digital space. So I had to go to the library of all places and just check out a bunch of books to learn how to do all this stuff. So I would go and check out books on like WordPress websites and Amazon, FBA, how to copyright, how to do all the sorts of stuff. And next to that section was this giant, like, I don’t even know, old textbook section on early childhood development and neuroscience, psychology and consumer behavior, stuff that was like, nobody has touched this book in years. But it was so interesting. So I kept checking those. But that just because they were, like, fascinating to me. And then I did that for like, 10 years straight. I just devoured information on how people work.  Now, I didn’t tell anybody that I had this information or I knew anything about this for decades, until I kind of accidentally fell into paid advertising right before COVID hit in 2019 I had a newborn and a two year old at home, and I was like, I’m gonna die, like I have to talk to somebody. So I got on Twitter, and I just started chatting with people in the industry who were also doing media buying at the time, and then it just kind of exploded, mostly because I think I hit it just at the right time, the right place. This is why I kind of like alluded to that earlier. Sometimes your journey leads you to just the right time, the right place. At the time, when I was on Twitter, I thought I was going to be the last one talking about it, but I ended up being one of the first to talk about how you can apply psychology to add specifically when it comes to messaging, and see amazing drastic results. And I, I guess people just kind of really grabbed onto it and just ran with it because I grew a following. You know, within a year, I had probably about five to 10,000 followers, and I was starting to, like, get good business and drag good leads. And I was like, this is fun. This is a good role for me. So fast forward to now. I’ve kind of created, like, the perfect job for Sarah, where I get to study humans all day long, and I get to focus primarily on marketing and messaging. So, yeah, it’s been a journey.  Rob Marsh: It’s a cool journey. So, and what you’ve built today is called Tether, and tell me how you’re doing that, like I’ve seen the products that you offer. I’ve seen how you talk about some of the stuff. But in the copywriting world, the content writing world, there’s a lot of research, but, and we’re all talking about like, how do you do research, or whatever, but oftentimes there’s a little bit of a disconnect between getting the research done and actually being able to apply it. And I think you’re bridging this gap a little bit.  Sarah Levinger: I’m trying my hardest. Yes, it’s really interesting, because I think everybody kind of understands what research is, why it’s important. A lot of people understand how to do it. And then there’s then there’s many, many people out there, I think, that do it very, very well. They’re adept at it. Then there’s this, like, very, like you said, big gap between the people who have the information and the people who need to use it. And that, I think, has always kind of existed in business in general. We understand that we need to go after a specific customer type, or a specific person, and then there’s a big gap, and then there’s all the people who talk to that specific person and draw them into the business. So when I started to do paid advertising, I fell in love with it, mostly because I was able to take what I was learning on the psychology side, tactically, put it into an ad, and then see results within maybe four hours, sometimes less. Within 30 minutes, I could tell whether it worked or not. So it was much faster way of testing the messaging that I wanted to test. But that in between, Spot kind of became where, I guess, the sweet spot for Sarah kind of started to kind of morph. I guess so Tether came out of a lot of requests, honestly, from my customers and. Asking me, I would go in and I would run their media, buying their ads for them, and they would always ask, how is it that your ads fit better than everybody else? Like, we have lots of other ads in here, and you seem to be getting consistent good results with your ads. How would that happen? And so out of necessity, I was like, I have to come up with some sort of tactical framework to show them what I’m doing. So at the time, like I said, I didn’t know I was doing any of this. It was just like a part of Sarah’s process for research. I was going through and on the brand Instagram pages for any of these D to C brands that I was working for. I was pulling down all of the comments that was underneath all of their organic pieces of content that talked about the brand or even the product, even the ones that didn’t have anything to do with anything. I just pulled them down and then analyze them one by one. Now this was before AI, so I had to go through by hand and categorize them into the categories that I wanted, which, at the time was emotional categories, because I was like emotion psychology, this kind of all makes sense. Obviously, people buy things for emotional reasons, and then we justify them with logic, so I’ll categorize them into emotional category, and then I’ll just go ahead and, like, run an analysis on that. So this was all done in Excel spreadsheet, and based on frequency numbers, I could tell which emotions were coming out of just the language that customers were using. So I don’t know that I was necessarily a better writer or a better like, you know, Ideator for abs. I think it was more of the fact that I just got much, much closer to the customer, and then I was able to take what I found and basically repurpose it. So I had a framework that just I repeated over and over and over,  Rob Marsh: Yeah, it seems to me, then, in my experience, you know, working with copywriters, a lot of the time, you know, we’re looking for specific words. Sometimes we’re looking for emotions, but, but you know, when, even when I go through research, knowing that I should be looking at all of it together, every once in a while, something will jump out. I’m like, oh, that’s the idea, right? And then maybe I stop or and so, having gone through and done that work to, like, really figure out, okay, every single comment, it feels to me like that’s almost the putting in the 10,000 hours kind of thing that trains your brain so that, so that it becomes really effective and insightful.  Sarah Levinger: Yeah, yeah. Well, and it was interesting, because that was the very first product I ever really had, was what I was calling it NLP at the time. So it was the NLP research panel, and it was called NLP because I didn’t know this was the term, but what I was doing was basically manual natural language processing. So there’s computers that do that. Obviously, Sarah was just doing it by hand. So I’d pull all the data down, categorize it, pull out frequency numbers for the emotions, emotional categories that I was looking for, and then I would write new copies based on the emotion that I felt, not necessarily the keywords and phrases that the customers were using, mostly because the keywords and phrases are important, and they I mean, they still are important. They were important. They are important. But the problem was, in paid advertising, if you use that keyword and phrase too many times. It’s fatigue. People kind of stop paying attention to it, and then it doesn’t work anymore. So fast forward, a couple years later, I had someone ask me, this is great. We love your NLP, it’s really interesting. It’s helping. But do you have any information on getting accurate avatars built, like customer types from all of the data that you’re pulling down. And at the time, I was like, No, but I could probably build that. I constantly look at these things like, I think I could probably make that. Why not? Like, we’ll see if we can ever so the next product that I built was called the CIM. So the CIM is a core identity map, and this particular research panel uses picture based surveys and metaphorical surveys to pull out these emotional like deeper insights out of our customers. So they’re very odd surveys, because about 80% of them are non-functional, I would say. So we ask questions like, if this product was a superhero, which one would it be? And why? Those types of things. Once you’re going to make an association of the brain, you would help pull out some very interesting insights of what people believe about things, not just how they feel about it, that in general, for humans, what you believe affects how you feel, and what you feel affects how you behave. So for consumption, especially since I’m on the paid advertising side, studying just the behavior of clicks or conversion rates and those types of things, not entirely helpful for me, because I have no idea what caused it, right? I just know it happened. So some people take one step back and go, Okay, we need to study the emotion, which is very, very helpful. But again, that’s only one piece of the equation. We can tell how they felt about what caused the conversion, but we can’t tell why they did it. So I go all the way back to the beginning and study behavior with the CI or study belief, sorry, that the CIM, so that way and understand more. Can you give me an example of how that works? Yeah. So, for instance, one of the best you kids into this I’ve ever saw was we had a CIM that was interesting. They had built basically this one. A skincare brand, and they were having a really hard time because the acquisition customer type was too expensive, like that. They were just, like, bleeding money, basically. So we ran a CIM basically just to see what their customers believed about the whole industry, not just their particular product. Because most businesses study themselves, or they study competitive they don’t study the industry, which I find fascinating, because I’m like, Oh, Rob Marsh: That totally rings a bell, too. I do the same thing. Like, of course, you want to look at your three or four closest competitors, so you don’t copy what they’re doing, but you also clue into, you know, the basics, and then, of course, your own product. But yeah, industry wide, that’s a lot, and that’s a lot for one person to handle too, or one small agency.  Sarah Levinger: Yeah, that’s why they usually come to Sarah, because I’m like, don’t go do this yourself. Just hire someone to do it. Blind you. So industry wide, though, this is a very interesting it’s a very interesting ecosystem, if you start to study industry, mostly because a large majority of the time there is one person at the top and then there’s a number two, and they fight with each other constantly, COVID, colon, Pepsi, right? Apple and Microsoft. Then there’s an outlier, usually a third player in here who’s quietly serving an audience that’s like secondary to the larger market that these two are fighting over. Right? That third base. Sometimes they are brand, brand new meaning, like you’ve never seen them before. They just came out of nowhere. Liquid Death is probably a good example of this. Like nobody really saw them come and they just were all of a sudden, there. You also have some of these who have been quietly like practicing their skill for such a long time that they notice a market gap before the two top players do and can like slip in immediately. So I think it’s beneficial to study your competitors and beneficial to study yourself, obviously, but it’s even more beneficial to study the industry as much as you possibly can, because you’ll start to notice consumer shift. That’s what we’re kind of looking for, especially at Tether. Consumer shifts happen all the time for all sorts of different reasons, political reasons for economic reasons for cultural movement. In particular, celebrities have a huge like play on cultural sway, like your customer type is swaying their behavior based on what they believe. And if their beliefs change, then all of their behaviors change too. So back to skincare. When we ran a CIM for them, we found that their customers were a little overwhelmed, not necessarily by like, the industry, like they understood what their problem was. It was usually acne or dry skin or wrinkles or whatever. They were more overwhelmed with the fact that I now have like, 70 bottles that sit on top of my counter, and I’m constantly, like, swapping them out in and every day and like, I just, I’m just overwhelmed with the amount of like ridiculousness that I have in my life now due to these bottles on my counter, it had nothing to do with the skincare, which I found really interesting, but it was such a definitive thread that they the customer types were just like, You know what? I’m just kind of done with the mess and the chaos of what this industry has brought into my life. Now, that’s a very definitive belief and emotion that we can start to message to on the coffee side, to talk about the fact that, like, this is the last time you’ll ever have to switch to another skincare brand.  Rob Marsh: So part of this, what you’re doing is trend spotting, which is maybe a little bit different, again, from what most typical copywriters or even researchers do. So, you know, aside from, you know, running your own panels, are there other tools that you’re using to spot trends and to see what’s coming in order to get ahead of that?  Sarah Levinger: I have tested a ton of stuff recently, and I think this is something you and I were talking about, $4 pocket there. There’s a place for AI. I think in this conversation, I don’t think it’s where people think it is. I typically use AI as a second brain. So I will have it do data analysis for me, because it can spot patterns and things that I just can’t see. If I have spreadsheets or data, I’ll go through and have it analyzed for me and just say, what do you see in here that I just don’t see? So that’s incredibly helpful. When it comes to research. I have a difficult time using AI as a production tool, and this is something that I’ve been slowly starting to learn more and more about. Because when we first started, I think everybody was just like, this is going to cut years off of our production time. It can do analysis, so it can tell us exactly what we should run from what I’m seeing. That’s not at all true. So in general, I typically default to surveys in particular, because it’s voluntary information, and it’s information that’s like, non biased. It’s just, this is just a person out there. It’s anonymous. We don’t collect any sort of email addresses or names or anything. It’s headed we just collect the actual data of people answering the pictorial survey or the metaphorical survey. And that’s on purpose, because I don’t want it to cloud kind of the what we’re trying to actually learn. So ideally, use AI, but it’s, it’s not as a production tool. It’s primarily just to help me think a little bit more, if that makes sense.  Rob Marsh: Since we started talking about AI, let’s, let’s keep going here. Because, like you said before we started recording, you said you have a few thoughts, and I think they probably track pretty closely to what what I think about A.I. But as far as AI goes and writing copy, tell me where you are in your brain and with your experience.  Sarah Levinger: So far, AI has been a very interesting tool to track. When it first came out, this was, like the most amazing thing we had ever seen. Like we just everybody grabbed it, everybody used it. They went from like zero to 5 million users in like 48 hours. It was bonkers, mostly because it is an incredible tool. The interesting part about it is, though, as you start to watch the metamorphosis of AI in particular chat is, well, the one that we use the most often in DTC, you start to notice some like, glaringly obvious issues with this platform. The I think the primary one being this is not really assisting workflow. I find which I think. What do you mean by that? Okay, so most people grabbed onto this because they were like, Oh, I don’t need a copywriter anymore. Save me time. Well, I don’t need any, but I could get rid of my entire team and just use this. That is technically true, but the issue is now you’ve basically replaced a team of experts who can get you a headline within a good 30 minutes to an hour, that will probably work 80% of the time with a system who is making basically an educated guess based upon the data you feed it that’s basically suited to you the user, because the more you use the llms, the more gets trained on you as the person, and it will start to feed you stuff that it knows you like. And this is the most difficult thing about llms. It’s like they’re very, very powerful. I still use it constantly because it’s trained on Sarah’s brain, so it’s almost like talking to myself. But toughest part about this is often the output is terrible, so I have to QA two times as much as I used to. I used to QA inside my own brain before I put it on a piece of paper. I think about it for a long time in the shower, like when I’m driving, or what I’m doing things with my kids, without me having to know that I was thinking about it, because it was all subconscious processing. Now we’ve taken our subconscious and stuck it into a computer and said, you do the subconscious processing for me, but let me help you do it. So we’re spending two to three hours QA one headline instead of just sitting and thinking quietly about it in the background before we sit down to our desk. Rob Marsh: I just kind of had a light bulb go off as you’re mentioning this when you said that llms get trained on our voice, and they get to know us. The biggest problem here is that is that even if we know our customers intimately, we are not our customer, and the knowledge that we bring to the table in order and then to have LLM reflect back what Rob is thinking instead of what Rob’s clients or customers are thinking, or Rob’s clients customers are thinking. Customers are thinking, which is even two steps away, like now. Now we’ve got a really big gap between what’s going to work and what sounds good, because it’s going to sound good based off of, you know, my feedback. I mean, I’m a pretty good writer, yeah, but it’s not necessarily the thing that’s going to work well.  Sarah Levinger: And in paid advertising, we’re using this primarily to produce massive amounts of ads. So our issue used to be that we had teams of like six to 10 to 20 people, all producing ads for us, copywriters and graphic designers and creative strategists, lots of different things, and all of those people, it would probably take us a good week to two weeks to generate a good 10 to 20 ads. Like it’s a process now we can do it in 20 minutes. Now, if you can take that amount of time, squish it down into 20 minutes, and you can take basically 10 ads and like, double or triple your production, that means a massive amount of messages are now being flooded into the systems on paid advertising. So meta, Tiktok, Instagram, right? That means the consumers are also seeing more messages. That means they’re also now becoming desensitized to any messages that are generic or completely boring, right? No offense to AI, but like, it’s a lot of what comes out of there is quite generic, yeah, so I’m watching this, and I’m tracking it as we’re going through just thinking, in the background, wondering, how long is this going to go before we start to see large scale kind of systemic issues in marketing in general, due to the fact that people think this is faster, but it’s not, or think that it’s better, but it’s not because we are the ones that are feeding all the data into The llms and telling them what to think. Now they still have the ability to go and, like, scrape the web, which is helpful. They can go and look to Google. But who produced all that stuff on Google? We did. So again, I am on the fence. I feel so torn about this, mostly because AI has something called projection bias, meaning they kind of just get. Tests at what they think is probably the best course of action based upon the statistical, mathematical patterns in the data. So we can feed it all the customer data we want, but if you’re feeding it on historical customer data, it’s only going to go after people who bought yesterday, not people who are going to buy tomorrow, so you’re dipping the bottom of the bucket constantly, bottom of funnel customers. And it gets even worse when you think about how many 1000s and 1000s of brands are in one industry. It’s intense.  Rob Marsh: It’s crazy. So while we’re still talking about this, I know you’re using AI. I use AI. How are you using AI to maximize its effectiveness and not let it get in the way of actually, like, relating to the customer. Sarah Levinger: So I primarily use it as a data analysis tool, because I’m not a data analyst, and, like, I have people on my team that are helping me with research, but in general, it can see a lot more than I can. I don’t want it to produce and I don’t want it to think for me, because I’m the one that has the real world experience. We all have to remember that AI lives inside a computer. It’s never seen a comb or a shoe or a house, right? It’s never experienced love. It’s also never really experienced rejection or embarrassment. It understands which emotions and words are connected to that word, but it will never be able to understand what it feels like to like be around that. Yet, I don’t know if they’re gonna make that someday. Maybe that would be terrifying, but it’s possible that will happen to them. So because of this, though, I really wanted to pull out things that I am unable to see. So I typically run these metaphorical and pictorial surveys to understand underlying belief systems. And so when I run that data through, we typically have basically qualitative answers that come with the pictures. So we’ll ask one picture of what do you think about this question. Here’s your picture answers. You choose one. They’ll pick an image for us. And then that very next question is going to be, why did you choose that image? Those qualitative answers for why did you pick that are very, very interesting, because they show a whole lot about what people think about themselves. You’ll choose based on emotion, but then you’ll try and justify it with something else, so you can compare them pretty easily. Now, the toughest part about this is I have to describe the image to chat pretty intensely and then tell it. Here’s the image they chose. Here’s what they answered as to why they chose that image. You do this analysis for me and tell me what you see, not necessarily what you think. I don’t try and use that word too much with chat, just because it’s trained on me. So it’s going to think like me. I want to just see what do you see in here that I use all the time, because I want to understand what patterns are in here that I just can’t see right now. Rob Marsh: So it’s helping you uncover patterns, emotions, ideas, and then you’re taking that, and either you’re writing it yourself or you’re working with a copywriter to put that into action. Sarah Levinger: Yep, exactly, exactly. So like the skincare thing, that was a pattern that I didn’t recognize. Like, when I looked at the data, I was like, oh, confidence. A lot of these women are really into feeling COVID. Into feeling confident. They want to boost their skin, they want to look good, those type of things, but those are normal, everyday things that I would think are a part of skincare. That’s normal, makes sense, yeah? And I said, it’s logical sense. So then I ran it back through the system and said, Okay, go find me some stuff that’s weird in here. Go, go get me some keywords or phrases that are like, I don’t know why anybody would say this about skincare, and one of the ones that came up was, I’m overwhelmed with the amount of bottles on my sink, which I’m like, that has nothing to do with skincare. So it was fascinating, but very, very cool thread that they found, and they’re able to use it now a whole lot better just because it spotted something that was weird. It’s an outlier, Rob Marsh: So where this stuff seems to be going is, again, moving into the psychology side of this. And this is something that we talk about. We say it a lot, but it’s hard to make actionable. And that is the idea that people don’t buy products. They buy what the product says about them, right? So they’re buying an identity, or they’re signaling something about them. So as an example,I love Jeep. I don’t currently own a jeep, but I have had Jeeps in the past, and I love them, and even though they’re kind of bumpy and clunky in some ways. There’s probably something—I might need to go to a therapist to talk about this—but there’s something about Jeeps that I like that it says about me as a jeep driver, right? So, yeah. So how do we get more of this into the copy and content that we’re creating? Sarah Levinger: Oh, gosh, yes. So this is really interesting, because this goes down into what how many different associations have you built with Jeep in your head, and what are they attached to? So normally, when you build a memory or some sort of an association as a human, it has to do with how heightened your emotional state was during that particular time period in your life. So it’s possible somebody in your family owned a jeep, or you knew somebody who wasn’t in your family, but was aspirational, somebody sort of like, I want to be that person that owned a jeep. Or it’s very possible that you just had you saw it a lot, right? But same thing happens for like, my kids are. Watching Sponge Bob right now, and like, it’s the funniest thing ever, because I watch it and I can, I can verbatim, just like, go every single line I know, everything that that guy said, because I watched it so much as a kid. So now the just seeing that experience on the TV elicits an emotional response for me, because I saw it so much as the chat. So it just kind of depends. And again, emotional states don’t have to be traumatic. They sometimes they can just be it was there and that was gone. I was excited, and then it was gone, that type of thing. So to get more of this, this is the reason why I’m testing these picture based surveys, metaphorical surveys, because I want to see how close can we get to eliciting that response from somebody without them having to basically, what’s the word without them having to answer in a logical way, if that makes sense. So it’s difficult to get this out, and this is reason why not a lot of people are in this type of research, because hard, it’s very difficult to get this out and to do it without leading an answer, because that’s what most surveys do, especially on like post purchase side, is we just kind of give them a general frame of reference, of like, where did you come from, or what did you like most about it today? What do you wish we had? These are very logical questions, and they’re also well suited to people who read most post purchases are just questions and answers in text based form. If you don’t read well, or if you’re the type person that just doesn’t care, you just button mash your way out of there, and then have gone right? So in general, when it comes to pulling out more of these things, there’s a lot of really good research around picture based surveys that help kind of pull out those emotions. To apply it, though, I think is probably where, like, the bulk of the benefit is. So the nice part is, once you start to find these weird trends, like the bottles on the counter type of thing, you’ll start to be able to understand a little bit more about what these consumers are experiencing in their everyday life. And you guys, copywriters have been very, very close to the psychology of customers more than almost any other role, I would say, in marketing, because you guys had to think so deeply about it to be able to draft good messaging. So finding these tiny little trends and being able to speak to the relatable experience of that customer is probably where this is going to go eventually. And when I say relatable experience, I’m not talking about the problem at all. Almost everybody wants to default to your problem is dry skin. Here’s a solution, very Aida framework. My pushback on that is, I think I’d rather you talk about her experience around her dry skin, because dry skin actually causes all kinds of problems, not just like it’s uncomfortable, but also, if I go skiing this weekend, I’m gonna have to put chapstick on my face, and that’s sticky and uncomfortable, and I don’t like that. It’s a secondary problem that I now have to deal with again. Or if my face is dry and, like, cracked and I flake everywhere, like, that’s uncomfortable because I have a date tonight, and I don’t want him to think that that’s weird, right? There’s like, connected experiences all over the place that stem from one problem, but there’s like, 15 problems that are around it we can talk to as well.  Rob Marsh: Yeah, that becomes really interesting. You know, copywriters know the PAs formula, problem, agitate, solve. And oftentimes we’re, we’re really focused on all of the good things around the solution. You know, we will quickly we’re taught, and I don’t know that it’s always correct, but it’s like, Oh, you don’t want to be negative too long, right? Like, mention the problem, but don’t make people feel bad or whatever, but then, so we were really good at if you take this, it solves this problem, and it shows up in your life in these ways. Now you can do all these things you couldn’t do before, but I think like focusing in on the secondary issues is a really interesting idea to me. Sarah Levinger: Well, I think it’s interesting because if you watch, and this is why I get I get freaked out. There are things too deep. I get freaked out sometimes because I’m like, everything’s attached to everything. Over the course of the last probably 20 to 25 years, we have started to shift as a culture, especially in the US, towards this notion of, Do not offend anyone, right? Do not offend anyone. And it’s happened mostly due to kind of how the millennial generation was parented. But the millennials in particular were very, very sensitive to this idea of everybody included. We’re all in a community. We all want everybody to feel safe. Safety was kind of high priority for this customer type. Now, the interesting part about that generation is they taught it to their Gen Z kids, who are now kind of ramping it up, like there’s even more of this notion of like, don’t offend, no bad feelings. Everything’s fine. That seeped its way into everyone’s mindset because we heard it so much like he talks about the copywriters in the 80s had no problem being me. Like, if you look at some of the long form content from the 80s, copywriters got really harsh about the problem, like they would try and trigger the crap out of people, and all of their content was very, very intense, like they would talk very specifically about this is your problem. This is how you feel about it, and it’s not good. You need to change this, right? They spent a little bit of time on the solution, but they would constantly wrap back into what we call naked. To focused, right? Not so much anymore. Copywriters nowadays, as you said, are so conscious of this idea of like, I need to be careful not to trigger people. But that has caused a little bit of a negative shift in marketing, because now we refuse to talk about the problem. We almost get too soft with ourselves, which means nobody’s selling, which means all of the consumers are kind of bored and just kind of turned out, so it all kind of melds into each other. And so I think about this sometimes, in this respect of psychology applies to everything, first of all, and it’s also interesting to watch, because the herd, the whole group of humans on the planet, we all follow each other a little bit. And I’m not saying that, like, safety is incredibly important, especially mental safety, psychological safety, feeling safe in your body, safe who who you are. I think feeling accepted. These are all good things that came out of like that generation and that movement. But there are always side effects to random things like this, and in marketing, it’s just going to get worse and worse, because the Gen Zers are really intense about it, so it’s gonna be fascinating. What happens the next couple years?  Rob Marsh: Well, as you talk about this, you mentioned Liquid Death. Liquid Death seems to be like perfectly fit into a reaction to that, right? I remember when I first saw Liquid Death, or within a few months of its launch, I saw a marketer who I really respected talking about how this was an awful brand, toxic masculinity, all of this stuff. And I remember thinking, Wait a second, there’s actually something really smart happening here. Now, obviously there, you know, the heavy metal branding and the name Liquid Death or whatever like, they’re obviously going for a reaction, but it’s, but it’s the fact that all of soda pop branding has been happy, family, pop music, whatever, it opens up this opportunity for literally water to be the bad guy, right? And by bad guy, I don’t mean the evil person. It’s that bad boy image, the James Dean riding in on its motorcycle type image, right?  Sarah Levinger: Yeah,yeah. Well, this hits on some trends culturally that are really interesting, because Liquid Death probably would not have been able to do what they did in the 80s, right? Because the 80s group did not care literally at all about anarchy or becoming some sort of a misfit or rebelliousness, because they already were, like, there was a whole bunch of people who did not feel stifled in that mostly because a lot of the boomer generation in the 80s already had, like, a good handle on we’re different. We’re already different from our parents. We’re going to start to push our voices out into the world. They became kind of their own group of movement makers in the 80s. That’s what the Boomers were. Now you fast forward to today’s day and age. A lot of millennials and Gen Xers in particular, feel very stifled, like, again, because they’re starting to hear these cultural messages of, like, be careful, don’t hurt anybody. Like, just like, all the time. If you feel that, if you feel stifled in yourself, you’re going to resonate with products that are like, No, we’re going to get loud and we’re going to be weird and it’s going to be whatever we feel it needs to be. So the interesting part is, again, global emotion is really interesting, because you have a group of people that feel this, you bring a product in that solves that need to feel okay with being rebellious, and people will grab it immediately. And you could spot these patterns, but it takes a minute.  Rob Marsh: Yeah, clearly, it takes a lot of work and a lot of research. So, you know, beyond like going into the spreadsheet and, you know, coding everything for emotions, or having a tool like ChatGPT do it. What else are you doing in your business at Tether to spot what’s coming or where the opportunities are? How are you helping clients see that? How do you see that the rest of the industry or the other competitors are here, and that’s why there’s this really good opening for you over here? Sarah Levinger: Okay, so I run something called the Tether BPE. Everything I have is an acronym, which is not on purpose. That’s just kind of how it happened. The Tether BPE is a brand personality engine. And this was a giant prompt that I read through chat. It starts with doing that kind of, like, deep research about the whole industry, whatever industry we’re studying at the time, all the way back to, I’ll take it back to the 60s, if I have to, like, what was happening in, like beverages in the 60s, so I can understand the history of where we came from. This entire prompt is basically built to help me understand historically what happened throughout the generations and throughout the decades. Where do we sit currently, and what’s the market gap, and predictively, what’s probably going to happen next, mostly so that I can kind of identify, can we see, is there a trend that’s similar to what happened to liquid death? Now they didn’t know that they identified a trend. They just went with what they were going with, mostly because, like, they’re genius, but also because that was part of him, and he noticed a giant people, giant group of people, that were being underserved. That’s what I’m trying to spot with the BP is what’s being on. Deserve that people are craving heavily. So the bbe was kind of born on its own, like off to the side, and then I added to it after reading the Innovator’s Dilemma. I don’t know if you’ve read that book.  Rob Marsh: I love everything by Clayton Christensen. He was brilliant, and one of my favorite thinkers ever.  Sarah Levinger: Yeah, I can’t get enough of his work, because I’m just like, oh, my God, that one blew my mind. It was such a dry, technical read, but I had to, like, really stick with it. But the underlying tones of what he was studying are so clear that in market, in industries, especially when you’re helping brands businesses grow, and your job as a copywriter or a graphic designer or somebody who’s like, fronting the load of the operational work. Your job is almost always going to be told to you as go get a sale, but that’s not at all what your role is. The people on the on like the ground floor of the business, our job is to spot patterns quicker than they can spot it at the top, because we’re closest to the customers. So in that particular book, they were talking about the standards industry and how it morphed, and all kinds of crazy things that happened. The people that were at the top of the industries had a very difficult time noticing that the customer bases started wanting smaller, faster, quicker, not necessarily more like more capacity. With this, they just wanted smaller, faster, quicker. So there were a couple companies like scandals or, you know, later it was Sandisk was able to come in and undercut some of these massive brands, because it was like, we’re solving a problem for one teeny, tiny customer group. But the customer group is growing. It’s not really that, like demand is really growing. There’s just more of them kind of coming into the circle. So what I do with the BPE is I’m trying to understand historically what has happened, so that I can kind of track the growth of things, but then predictively, I want to see if we can identify some trends that are coming out of the BPE, like the bottles on the table. And then can we track what the whole industry is saying so that we can kind of put our brands right in the right spot to hit at just the right time. Now, that’s difficult, and I have no idea whether it’s going to work, but it’d be interesting to see if we could do it, because it’s happened in every industry across history. Rob Marsh: Yeah. I mean, as a real simple example of that is the history of soda pop. You see this happening about every five to six years. There’s a new trend, right, like so, you know, in the 60s and 70s, there was the uncola and Mountain Dew, and then you get things like Snapple and the teas that come along. And the interesting thing is, the soda pop industry is always being disrupted this way, but either Coke or Pepsi comes along and they buy up the company in order to preserve their space. And we, I mean we literally, I think two weeks ago, Pepsi just bought Poppi, or one of the nutritional soda pop brands, right? That’s kind of the latest, the latest thing happening in soda pop. And before that, you know, Liquid Death and water and energy drinks and like you sort of see this happening. And I guess my point here is, if you can figure out how to do that for your clients, this is the kind of superpower that I mean it doesn’t just like, it creates literally 100 million dollar industries. So, how do we do more of that? Sarah Levinger: Yes, I think chat is making it a whole lot easier for people who would like to stay at home mom in Colorado to sit in her office and be like, what’s happening with the consumers. Get curious. Get curious if you see something specifically, if you see an outlier, stop tracking things that are normal. I don’t care what the consumers are doing. I also don’t really care what the competitors are doing all that much. If it’s normal, if the consumers are acting normal today, cool. Just keep it going. If somebody comes in that door that says something wild to me, that’s like, that has never been attributed to our product. Why would you think that? Like, what is that? Pay attention to it, get curious about it, because at the end of the day, if you see more people coming in saying that same thing, or even if you see something that’s like, I don’t know, one person said this and the other person said that, and they’re kind of related, keep track of it, because trends change slowly, right? And consumers do things very quietly, but they’re always telling you what they want constantly, because they’re voting with their dollars. So you could see it everywhere. And I tell people, track your sister industries too, like track the ones that you don’t think you’re related to, but you definitely are. For instance, in one of the brands that I was looking for, they sell these really cool little flasks, right? They were just gorgeous, beautiful things. They’re 100% attached to the alcohol industry because of what goes in the plow. However, they’re also attached to body positivity. I can’t talk body positivity is one of the industries they’re attached to, specifically because if the millennials stop drinking, they go under so you have to track, you’ve got to look at the entirety of the ecosystem. And this is why you know the study of economics exists. You got to track the whole thing. And I know it sounds intense, and it’s like, oh my God, how would I start that? The best place that you can start, I think, is with chat. Though. This is where I’m like, it’s a second brain. Just use it as a way to go look for things that you can’t book for on your own. It’s got deep research. Now it’s incredibly well versed. I’m pretty sure one of these, one of these models here, was just passing the training test I was reading.  There’s like, about that a week or so ago, yeah, where it’s like, oh my god, the models are outscoring the humans in the Turing test, and people are identifying the model as the human. So use the tools that you have. I would not use it to produce again. I try really hard to default to I think humans still should be writing and producing for humans. But I would go and look at what what’s connected to you. Take your industry, plug it in. Just say, what do you see? What’s out there? What’s the history of this? Learn, learn, learn. Just act like a historian. But the more that you know, the more that you can kind of see out into the future to tell what’s happening next. Rob Marsh: This feels like a place where you know, we should mention that niching actually becomes part of your superpower, too. So there’s, you know, this conversation in the marketing world, should you niche? Should you not niche? And there are good reasons on both sides to do one or the other. But if you niche, you have a much better ability to spot this kind of thing as it comes up, because you’re familiar with the industry. You’re not just jumping from one project or one client to another.  Sarah Levinger: Oh, 100% I have that issue right now because I’m so solidly connected D to C. There for a minute this year, I was trying to decide, do I want to move to B to B? Do I want to see if I can open up SAS or like service based or consulting. The toughest part about it is I know too much about DTC, so it’s way too easy for me to come over here and just be like, these are my people, and I know a lot about them, and I can help and serve them, but it could be a blind spot for me and for Tether. If we continuously go down the path of our normal customer, we’re going to miss outliers that might be a better customer type. So, and not to say that, I’ll leave you to see I’ll probably be here forever, but in general, this happens in every business. So this is why it pays to look. It pays to pay attention.  Rob Marsh: The flip side of niching is that you’ve missed the exposure that’s happening in those other industries, and you can’t bring new ideas from those industries into it. So maybe the answer here is that you need one person who’s focused and niched, and you need a team member next to you who’s paying attention to everything else.  Sarah Levinger: Yep, yep, yep. That’s why people hire Sarah. Usually they’re like, go out there and find us and stuff, and then we’ll stay close to our customers. So now we have Beth to both room. Yeah, yep. I think that’s probably the best way to do it.  Rob Marsh: So we haven’t really even talked much about, like, specific psychological tactics or things that you know you’re paying attention to, or that you’re doing with ads and advising your clients to do. But do you have like, just a top two or three tactics? You’re like, okay, these are my go tos. I’m gonna start here. I’m gonna try this stuff first, because I know it’s a good place.  Sarah Levinger: This is not copywriting related, but rounded buttons tend to produce better clicks, better conversion than sharp ones do, which I find really interesting. They’ve done a lot of studies around that and that, that one in particular has to do with sharp things feel a little unsafe to the mind. Now, I’ve seen a couple of studies that have gone the opposite direction with this, that talk about the fact that it depends on the product. If you have a tool or something utilitarian, rounded corners don’t do anything at all for conversion rates on button, interesting. So if I’m selling an ax or something dangerous, I might want a square, right? Something with sharp edges? Okay, so second one… I saw it here that was really, really interesting study I read talked about the fact that italics, italics and ads in particular, tend to increase engagement, where people like, like it and share it and do all kinds of stuff. Like, if the text is slanted, now they they specifically said over slanted, but typically italic says, like, I don’t know, it’s like eight to 10 degrees, not that much, right? Yeah, they were talking about like 30 to 33% like, really slanted text, for some reason that does really well. And they said it happens not just on ads, but landing pages and emails everywhere. So without… Rob Marsh: Would you do it in with, like, small blocks, or like, the entire piece of copy, like, in a Facebook ad, you’ve got that introduced the introductory block, or whatever you want, that whole thing slanted.  Sarah Levinger: From what I read, I’m pretty sure it’s just headlines like, don’t do the whole thing. Slanted, yes, but headlines, as long as they’re short, like, I don’t know, and that was probably the third study I read, was sweet spot for headlines on advertising in particular, at least, is four to eight words long, interesting. Tapped at eight, yeah, they seem to lose effectiveness at over eight words. So and again, I. I only know studies that pertain to pay to advertise, because that’s what I’ve been to. But for the slant, it’s interesting. If they’re short headlines, make the whole headline slanted, but then your subhead, your body copy, all the rest of it, just keep it a normal, normal font. So weird stuff. Humans are really sensitive to a longer, strange thing.  Rob Marsh: I think maybe part of this goes back to just standing out, just being different, right? Because every other headline is straight or slightly italicized, right? So something’s different that triggers our innate sense that I need to pay attention to this, because, again, it might be dangerous, it might be food, it might be an opportunity for connection, right?  Sarah Levinger: Yeah, that makes sense. I guess the lesson here is, try lots of stuff. Try lots of different stuff, be different from everyone else. Yes, the end of the day, that’s what it comes down to, awesome. Rob Marsh: This has been fascinating for me. I wish I had another hour, because I think we could just keep going and going. But Sarah, you have a newsletter, if people want to get on your newsletter and follow you, where should they go? Sarah Levinger: You can actually go to tetherinsight.io. That’s probably the only place to get access to it right now. I feel really bad. I should probably update my email. I get so deep in the weeds on my own business, I’m like, I should really work on that this week. But yeah, so sign up for that. I usually do brand breakdowns in particular. So if you’re looking for studies of brands that have used psychology in the past and how they used it to grow or get more customers or cut costs, that’s usually the first half of it. The next section on that newsletter is most interesting to me. They’re Tether signals. So all of the little insights that we pulled out today from all the brands that I work with. I’m providing those inside that newsletter. So if you want to get access to like a random trend that nobody sees yet, they’re going to be inside that. Rob Marsh: And then you also write a lot on LinkedIn and Twitter, and so we’ll link to to your accounts there, so people can follow. And before we start recording, you mentioned you might be launching a community here, or by the time this goes live, have launched a community. Tell me a little bit about that. Sarah Levinger: Okay, so I’ve been asked to do this for years and years, and I just haven’t had time to do it. But I’m finally going to do it this year. I have a community that’s going to be starting up specifically around consumers, consumption, behavior, psychology, identity, and in particular, we’re going to be studying not just d to c, but basically any customer type, anybody that you want to bring into your ecosystems. How do you use psychology to get them in the door faster and cheaper? And primarily, I think this community, it’s going to be good, because I want to start talking to the people who are studying the consumers the most. So I’m hoping to bring in a lot of people from the large scale universities, large scale market research firms, people who know and understand consumers really well. So we can start to talk to them a little bit about what they’re seeing as well. But primarily we’re going to do brand breakdowns basically once a week, so you can submit your brand, or if you want to come in and submit your service, whatever it is, and I’ll take a look at it, and then we’ll talk about here’s all the psychology things you need to put in place. Here’s the way you need to shift emotionally to bring people in. And then I got lots of resources, tons of courses and trainings and things around learning psychology specifically for marketers.  Rob Marsh: So I’ll link to those in the show notes as well. Thanks to Sarah for walking through her research and analysis process, how she uses—and doesn’t use—A.I., and we can all get better at spotting changes in trends before they happen. If you’re not already on Sarah’s newsletter, you definitely should be. She write about her research and shares case studies about how she’s applying the strategies and frameworks we talked about on this episode. There’s a lot to learn when it comes to making this stuff work and Sarah is one of the best. I’ve linked to her site in the show notes as well as her brand new community if you’re interested in finding out more about that as well. And of course there are lots of resources around persuasion and psychology in The Copywriter Underground. If you’re a member, you’ll find those resources in the new dashboard. And if you’re not a member, you can fix that now at thecopywriterclub.com/tcu. That’s the end of this episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. If you like what you’ve heard, please share it with someone you know. Or, if you don’t know another writer or freelancer who you can share it with—and I find that very hard to believe—visit Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts and leave a review. If you haven’t left a review, now is the time. I promise, when you share The Copywriter Club Podcast, your friends will thank you. Don’t forget to check out The Copywriter Underground at thecopywriterclub.com/tcu. See you next week.

When it comes to getting customers to buy more, it helps to have psychology working for you. So I invited buyer psychologist, Katelyn Bourgoin, to chat with me about the marketing tactics that truly make a difference when it comes to getting customer to open their wallets. This is a great discussion that covers insights like Jobs to Be Done, Trigger Events, and the deep psychology that engages customers and keeps them coming back for more. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.   Stuff to check out: Katelyn’s Newsletter Wallet Opening Words <— Get this! The Milkshake Video Clayton Christensen’s How Will You Measure Your Life? The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground   Transcript: Rob Marsh: Why do people buy the products and services we write about? If you don’t know the answer to that question, you need this episode. This is The Copywriter Club Podcast. Before you can sell the products and services you write about, you need to understand why your customers buy in the first place. This includes marketing concepts like market/message match, jobs to be done, market sophistication, clarifying an offer, finding pain points, and finding under-served markets.  My guest today is buyer psychologist Katelyn Bourgoin. She writes the Why People Buy newsletter and focuses on using science and psychology to sell more of whatever it is that you are writing about. Personally, these are the topics I could talk about for hours. If you want to sell more of the products and services you write about, you’ll definitely want to listen to this entire episode. What Katelyn shares about “trigger moments” is in my opinion one of the most important concepts in marketing that doesn’t get the attention it deserves.  Katelyn and I also talked about making difficult decisions like shutting down a business that isn’t working, or choosing between taking a real job and doing something on your own, and the mindset shifts required to make these decisions. And I grilled Katelyn on the methods she used to grow her newsletter. If you write a newsletter (or want to write a newsletter), her ideas will help you attract new readers faster. Before we get to my interview with Katelyn, this episode is brought to you by The Copywriter Underground. If you haven’t jumped in to see what the Underground includes, now is the time. It’s guaranteed, which means you can join and if you don’t find the resources you need to grow your business, just let us know and we’ll refund your money. The Underground includes more than 70 different workshops—and accompanying playbooks to help you gain the skills and strategies you need to build your business. This week we’re adding another expert workshop all about how to create the perfect for you copywriter website. If your website doesn’t stand out or doesn’t help you land clients, you’ll definitely want to join us. The Playbooks make it easy to find quick solutions to the challenges you face in your business everything from finding clients, conducting sales calls, using A.I., building authority on LinkedIn or YouTube or Pinterest, and dozens of other workshops. You also get dozens of templates including a legal agreement you can use with your clients, monthly coaching, regular copy and funnel critiques, and more. You can learn more and join today by visiting thecopywriterclub.com/tcu.  And now, my interview with Katelyn Bourgoin… So Katelyn, welcome to the copywriter club podcast. I’m thrilled to have you here. I’ve been wanting to have you on the show, literally, for like, a year. I’m not sure why it took so long to make the right connections, but thanks to Jordan for helping to make it happen. But since you’re here, tell us your story. I know you’ve got a great story of, you know, some business success and failure, but you have created an amazingly successful newsletter. I love it. It’s one of those that I wait for it to come into my email box, and probably because the topic is the topic that just rings my bell, which is persuasion. So anyway, tell me your story. How did you get here? Katelyn Bourgoin: That’s a long question.  Rob Marsh: It was a terrible question.  Katelyn Bourgoin: No, it’s a great question. I just feel like I’m, you know, I’m always kind of thinking about the best way to share this story, because it’s long and winding as most entrepreneurs are, and like, to your point, things look great today, but there have been a lot of ups and downs to get to this point. And so maybe I’ll share a little bit of the journey before launching the newsletter, which is why we buy so prior to launching the newsletter, if we go all the way back to like 2014 so we’re talking like 11 years ago, I was running a branding agency. I’d actually just sold the sister company, which was a restaurant consulting agency, and I was having this kind of crisis of identity, like I think a lot of folks do, or I was like, I need to stop selling time for money. I want to sell something that scales, something more scalable. And at the time 2014 I was under the impression that the online course and online, you know, creative world was too busy, so I should do something else. Now, this is funny, considering that it’s still an amazing opportunity for anybody who wants to get into that world. And that’s, you know, really what the business is that I run today, 11 years later. So I decided I was going to do something else, and I was going to launch a tech company. Because how hard could that be? Really, really effing hard, Rob. Things did not go as planned. We launched an initial product, got some venture capital funding. Inc Magazine was saying we were building the next LinkedIn for women. Everything looked awesome from the outside. It was not going awesome on the inside. We really understood the customer we were going after. And of course, I was good at marketing and PR, but not so good at building the right product. I built the wrong product, and it wasn’t solving the core pain point that the audience that we decided to go after needed us to solve for them. It was janky. It didn’t work very well. And so we’d have 1000s of people signing up, and they would post, and they kind of create a profile, and they did not stick around. They didn’t really maintain their activity. And so in the last dish effort, I ended up pivoting to more of a think tank model.  But at that point, I was so burned out, and we were out of money, and I was just like, I can’t keep going. And so ended up closing down the company, super sad, licking my wounds, trying to decide, what am I going to be when I grow up? Had to go bankrupt because I’d taken a bunch of personally guaranteed loans in the early days before we raised venture capital and trying to figure out what’s next. And I was really fortunate, because I brought on these great investors, and one of the investors that I brought on had a huge portfolio of companies, and was like, Hey, you weren’t so good on the product side. I was like, Yeah, I know. But you were really good at the marketing side. And we have all of these founders that we support that are building incredible products, and they’re not great at explaining them, getting people excited about them, selling them. Will you work with some of our companies? And I said, Yes, are you gonna pay me? It’s like, I really need money. And yeah. So they’re like, Yeah, you can come on as a consultant, and we’ll pay you to work with these companies. And so I started working with all of these brilliant founders who were building world changing technology, their clients were like Boeing and NASA and Tesla and like they were changing the world. And I would go and I would sit down at their boardroom tables, and I’d ask them the question that we want to know as marketers, which is, tell me about your customers. And I was really surprised that most of them could not give me a straight answer. They would be like, oh, you know, like we target, you know, entrepreneurs, or, we target companies like this, but also kind of like this, or the founders would be fighting about who the target customer is in the session. And one time, a founder looked at me straight in the face and he said, our target customers are B to B, online businesses with anywhere between 10 and 500 employees.  Rob Marsh: Pretty much every business?  Katelyn Bourgoin: Yeah. So I was like, Okay, there’s clearly a problem to be solved here and helping people to better understand their customers. And so I got really nerdy with this problem started, like, hungrily consuming all of the literature that I could. I’m like, why are so many people having this issue where they don’t understand their customers? They don’t understand the demand that customers have.  And that led me to discover Clayton Christensen and Bob Moesta work around jobs to be done, which is kind of a whole other conversation we could get into. And it led me to thinking, I’m going to start an insights agency. I want to build an agency that helps companies understand their customers. Will do customer research on the graph, will feed them insights. They need this information to build successful companies. Well, around this exact same time that I have this big idea like, I want to start generating demand for this. I was doing a lot of consulting work. I was running workshops and training for mostly companies in the innovation space, helping them to better understand their customers. And so I started thinking, okay, I need to start priming people for when I eventually launched the agency. And so I created Why We Buy as a newsletter, basically to build pipeline for a future agency. And that was in 2021 and we’d come through the pandemic. We were figuring out the world again in person. Stuff wasn’t happening. It was mostly still virtual. And I found out that I was pregnant, which was exciting, because we’ve been trying, and so we ended up having a baby. And shortly after, within four months, my husband broke his neck. It was like, Oh, crap, what am I going to do? I’ve got this newborn baby. I am, you know, trying to figure out how to build this business. I’m doing it all by myself. And around that same time, sponsors started reaching out to me, being like, we’d like to pay to promote our stuff in your newsletter. And I was really weirded out by that, because, like, what is that a thing? I didn’t even know about this world. And so initially I started just saying, no, it’s not worth my time for like, 200 bucks to promote your thing.  I eventually ended up having a couple calls with some of these brands and realizing it was a big opportunity, and that there was really an opportunity to build a business around the newsletter. And that’s when I decided to hit pause on the agency idea, and go all in on building a media and education company. And that was the start of what I’ve built today. Rob Marsh: It’s an it’s an amazing story, and it’s got me thinking… but we kind of skimmed over shutting down the business—bankruptcy. Yeah, it was bad, but when people go through that, it’s really bad. How did you deal with the emotional weight of that happening to you and to keep going? And the reason I’m asking this is there are a lot of people who are starting their own businesses that get into that dip and they get stuck, or they struggle and they have to give up and have to quit, or they have to move on to something else. What was the thing that got you through that? Katelyn Bourgoin: It’s a great question. I would say that there were two things that happened at that so, funny enough, after closing out that company, I was trying to decide, what’s next? What am I going to do when I grow up? And I actually had a company that would have been my dream job reach out, offering an executive role in their marketing team, and I was at this crossroads. So it was like, you know, I’ve just had to go bankrupt. I’ve built my own thing. I’ve been an entrepreneur for the last—this was 2018—I’ve been an entrepreneur for a long time. I basically had never had a real job, and I was under the weight of this. Like, you know, do I go and get a job or do I keep going and continue to build a company?  And if I’m honest, the reason that I said no to the job was I felt like an imposter. I was afraid I would not meet their expectations. I didn’t think that I deserved the role that was being offered to me, and so I passed up on it, thinking I’m going to get in there and they’re just going to see that I don’t belong. And that turned out to be the greatest thing ever, because I’ve since gone on to build a company that I really love. I do really feel confident my abilities as a marketer. But it was one of those low points in my life. But the thing that I look at now, and I see it as a bit of a gift, is, once you’ve been that low as an entrepreneur, like once you’ve basically lost everything, the company fails, you go bankrupt. I had a bunch of friends and family who had invested in our round that I had to tell we’ve lost your money. It wasn’t a lot of money, fortunately, but it was enough that it was many, many months of sleepless nights. Once you’ve gone through that, you realize there’s nowhere to go. But that’s the positive about being on the bottom, there’s really nowhere to go but up. And for me, once I identified the problem that I saw these startup founders making, I was like, we made that problem too. We just made it on the other end, like, we also didn’t understand. We understood who we wanted to sell to. I’d bought into the whole idea you have to niche down. You have to be super specific. And we were like, we were going after a very specific persona. They were early stage female entrepreneurs building online businesses. Most of them were in the very early stages. That was a huge mistake for many reasons. You know, early stage entrepreneurs don’t tend to have a lot of money to invest in solutions, which I am now, in retrospect, aware of, but, you know, we’d taken that advice to niche down and to focus on the customer, and I realized that I was so focused on that customer, but I didn’t really deeply understand the problems that that we needed to solve for them and building the right solution. And so that experience my on my own end, and then seeing that rippled out through these other companies, it became really clear to me that we’ve got a lot of people out there building stuff that people don’t want and or they’re building stuff that people do want, there’s doing a terrible job of explaining why they should want it and what it is. And that’s a problem I want to solve. That’s an exciting problem, because you’ve got these great entrepreneurs who are trying to build these world changing solutions that can’t get traction.  So ultimately, I feel like I had to hit that bottom and feel that pain so that I could see that opportunity, because otherwise I never would have seen it. We’d be having a very different conversation today. Had that company been successful.  Rob Marsh: Yeah, we probably wouldn’t be having a conversation at all, because I conversation at all, because I wouldn’t be on your newsletter list. Katelyn Bourgoin: Exactly.  Rob Marsh: Well, let’s talk a little bit about how we figure out the message that matches up to that deeply felt pain point? Because you actually touched on it twice, as we’ve been talking for the last 10 minutes or so. Obviously this is a big problem that a lot of people have. So how does somebody go about—I’m thinking of copywriters, content writers, who are trying to figure out—what is my… how do I match my message to the pain point that I’m working for my clients? But also, every business struggles with this. So how do you advise clients or people to figure that out? Katelyn Bourgoin: That’s a great question. I would say, first of all the answer is that you need to be able to step back from what it is you want to sell and start thinking about what people want to buy. And I think that that takes a real shift for a lot of people, because we often have a motivation that’s personal and selfish around the thing that we’re selling. If you’re you know, for entrepreneurs, our motivation is we want to build this cool internet company where we can work 10 hours a week and make millions of dollars. Our motivation is often coming from a self centered place, and then we try to find a market for that thing. And that’s just not how it works. It’s not effective that way.  So I’d say that the most important step is starting with this is the way that we you know, I’m working on a workshop right now to help people through this whole process. It’ll help them to basically clarify their offer, figure out the painful problems that they’re like, uniquely qualified to solve, and who wants to pay them a lot for that in two hours. And so this, I’m figuring out the exact step by step process, because I went through this in a organic way. But then when I sat down to be like, how do I actually help other people do this?  I figured out there is a specific process, and it starts with first identifying the trigger events that lead people to be interested in an offer like yours in the beginning, in the first place, right? So people don’t just wake up one day and go, oh, I want to buy this, like, B to B CRM software, or like, oh, I want to like, come to Katelyn’s workshop. That’s not the way that the world works. Something happens in their life outside of our visibility that pushes them to realize they’ve got a problem that they need to solve, right? Because if they could do it on their own, if they could just figure out what the next step is, they wouldn’t need us. They wouldn’t need us. They wouldn’t be looking for a solution. They’d already be doing it. So a trigger event happens that makes them move into looking for a solution, because they have a job to be done. Right?  Next step, identify the job to be done. Most people are really bad at this, right? They’re again, they’re creating a solution and then searching for a problem to solve, as opposed to understanding what is the actual thing that people are trying to accomplish? What are the nuanced details around that so that I can create the right solution? So figure out what job it is those prospective customers are trying to get done next. Ask yourself, who are the people that are likely to have that job to be done and willing to pay for a solution because they’re underserved by the existing solutions, or there’s things that are out there, but they’re not right in their use case. So narrow it down. Figure out, like, Who are these potential target markets that have this job to be done?  And then do what I call pain storming, and this is really fun, which is basically, you just go through, you look at those, those potential buyers. Let’s say you narrow down to three potential segments that you might be able to solve problems for. And you look at, what are all of their problems, right? What are the functional problems they have when they’re trying to get the job done? What are the emotional problems that they have? What are the social problems, the things you know, the way that they worry about being perceived when they’re doing it, and what are their kind of risks? And it’s like, you know, a perceived problem thing that they worry is going to happen. And you figure all of that out for those, you know, let’s say, three potential personas, and then you start to look for the overlap, because I bet you there are problems that are overlapping across those different audiences. And in doing that, you can go, Okay, I’ve identified some very painful problems that you know a particular segment of the market has.  Now I can work backwards and figure out an offer that actually solves those problems and the messaging to communicate that to those people, because I think again, it’s like we often go about this backwards. We start with what we want to sell, and then we try to figure out where to sell it. And that’s the reason why so many people are struggling. Rob Marsh: Love that you share that, and it rings true. In fact, listening to you just talk about that process, I hear a lot of Clayton Christensen coming through not just the jobs to be done, but identifying those opportunities where people are underserved is one thing that he talked a lot about in his various books. Can we talk a little bit deeper about jobs to be done? Because I think this is a framework that’s really useful, but also sometimes hard to wrap our brains around, because you’re thinking, Well, of course, the course that I’m selling is teaching people the thing, right? Or the template that I’m selling is helping people get the thing, and that’s not really what jobs to be done, at least that’s only part of the JTB framework. So you talk a little bit about that? Katelyn Bourgoin: Yeah, absolutely. And I’ve been so blessed that I got to connect with Bob Moesta, who was the co-creator of jobs to be done with Clayton Christensen. So if anybody has watched… Google: “jobs to be done, milkshakes” and you will watch a four minute video where Clayton Christensen, who, for anybody who’s listening, Clayton, he’s sadly passed away, but he was considered one of the world’s foremost experts on innovation. The top CEOs of the world would come to him with their problems, and they say, we want to innovate. We want to create solutions. People buy we keep running into problems where we put stuff in the market. Nobody buys it. Why do we keep doing this? How do we stop and he basically with, with the help of Bob and I think two other people, ended up creating the jobs to be done, theory and framework. And when, in the video, he talks about why people buy milkshakes, and he’s explaining, one of his colleagues went out and started interviewing people and asking them why they bought their milkshake. That colleague was Bob Moesta. And so I’ve been fortunate enough to get to spend time with Bob, to have him participate in work shapes that I’ve been hosting. And like, he’s just blown my mind as to understanding the depth of this, but this is where things get tricky.  So for most of us, especially people who I think are in the who are building very malleable products, right? So if you’re building a physical product that’s in the world, you kind of get one opportunity to get that right, right, and then you need to think about all of your marketing and everything. But if you’re building everything. But if you’re building a service business, or you’re building a online tool, or you’re building an online course or community, you can really adjust and modify things. So I think that the jobs to be done method of first understanding why people buy solutions like yours or your thing. So the way that they recommend doing this is by going out and interviewing customers and running what Bob calls a switch interview. And what that basically means is, why did those people if Why did they switch from what they were doing before to buy from you and what they were doing before might have been nothing. You might have been the first thing that they bought, or it could have been they were using this other tool that had been working okay for them, but then stopped working because something in their life changed. And when you understand the real details of the buying journey, that’s where all of the insight can come from to figure out, well, what are people actually trying to get done.  So, funny enough, when I launched the Why We Buy newsletter, it was because I’d zeroed in on the job to be done. Nobody in their right mind, and remember, we were trying to build an insights agency where we would actually go out and conduct this research for our clients. Nobody in their right mind actually wants to do interviews. That is not the job to be done. Nobody wants to do interviews. Nobody wants to do research. Most leaders of companies are allergic to the word research. They don’t want to do it. They don’t want to pay for it. They see it’s often been a huge waste of time. But what they do want is they want to understand why their customers are buying, so they can get more of them right. They want to understand what’s how their buyers are making decision. That’s the job to be done.  Now, there’s a lot of different ways they can do that. They could go out and, you know, hire my theoretical agency that had ever launched, or they could hire us to do research for them. They could run a survey with their with buyers, right? They could do a bunch of AB testing, run ads and try to test different messages and see if some clarity comes into it. The problem with a lot of the other methods for you know deeply understanding how your customers make decisions is that they don’t actually get to the root of it, because a lot of them are by observing customers or by asking customers to answer these kind of short servers, you don’t get the in depth stuff that you can get in an interview.  So when I was thinking about a newsletter, I was like, there’s no way I’m going to write a newsletter on research, because research is a project for most companies, right? It’s not an ongoing job to be done. It’s something that they do once and or they do it on a quarterly basis, or whatever they want to be new. And so if they were to sign up for my newsletter, they might read the first few issues, and then when you know research isn’t a priority for them, maybe they’re not gonna keep reading it. I was like, I want to create something that we’re gonna open every week. So if people want to understand what drives buyer behavior, what are other things other than research that I could theme the newsletter around?  And that’s where the idea for buyer psychology came from. Because I was like, this is another way to understand your buyer’s decision making process. It’s another way to get that job done. And if I can get people to sign up for that newsletter, they’re going to be the kind of people that are probably going to actually be interested in an insights agency that helps them do research. So that’s a long winded answer, but essentially it’s like getting down to the real root of what is the what is below the demand? What job are they trying to get done, taking your solution, thinking out of it. It wasn’t doing research. It wasn’t, you know, running interviews. None of that was what people actually wanted. What they wanted was to understand how their customers make buying decisions so that they could, you know, market smarter.  And so by understanding that I was able to come up with an idea for a newsletter that would, in theory, attract the perfect people for the insights agency I plan to build pre neck break. Rob Marsh: Who knows, if you were to launch that agency now… you’ve got 80,000 people on your list who are ready to buy, right? So… I love talking through that and thinking through that process, especially from the standpoint of the listeners to this podcast, copywriters, content writers, marketers, who are doing a lot of these freelance type things. Oftentimes, we’re selling things like websites or sales pages or emails, and we don’t always recognize that our clients actually don’t need websites, sales pages and emails. I mean, they do, but what they really want is the thing that the website, email and sales page gets them, right? Which is a new customer or revenue or in some cases, it’s psychological benefits like, Oh, my spouse respects me, because they can see that I have a real company, at least online, it looks like I’m doing something real and I think we forget that a lot, and we focus so much in on that deliverable. Katelyn Bourgoin: Yeah, and I think the other thing that we do as marketers, that is that we have to be cautious of. Because I think this is why, when you look at a lot of markets are very saturated, and us as copywriters or marketers are trying to find ways to create a differentiated message. And oftentimes, I think what we do so going back to jobs to be done, the simple way of explaining it is basically the job is the progress that a person is trying to make in a very specific circumstance. So it’s about understanding what is, what is it that they’re trying to achieve? That’s the kind of the job, and then why? Why does achieving that matter? And I think as entrepreneurs, we often will kind of go really heavy into selling. The why, which is off the big rhetoric in marketing, you know, sell the life, sell the life, sell the life with and then our stuff just sounds like everybody else’s. Because, guess what? As humans, we all have the same core goals. We want to survive and we want to thrive, right? We want to make more money, we want to have more time. We want to be more attractive to the other sex.  So if you jump too much into the why, and you focus your message there, then you end up selling sounding like everybody else who’s selling this big dream, this glitzy dream. So I think it’s really important to understand what the job is, because that’ll allow you to differentiate your messaging and make sure that you’re speaking to that. And part of understanding the job, a huge part of it, as you know, in my opinion, and based on what I’ve seen, is it’s about understanding the struggles people have when completing that job. That’s the opportunity in our messaging.  And so as I work on this, this new workshop, and I’m using, it’s very meta, but I’m using my own creation of the workshop as an example in the workshop, because, you know, everybody who will be attending that workshop will have bought that product, so it’ll be very, very relevant to them. But as I work through it, it’s like figuring out what the specific job is that people are coming to that workshop before they’re coming there because they want to design a scalable digital offer that they can build on their own without growing their team to scale their service based marketing business. It’s very specific, right? And so when you think about that, once you kind of, like, wrap your hands around that, it’s like, okay, I know that, that I know what this what the trigger is. It’s about, you know, them struggling with growing their existing service based business, feeling stretched, feeling strained, wanting to offer something that’s more scalable. I know what it is they’re wanting to do. They want to figure out what that offer is. Chances are, get digging into the pain points they’ve already tried. They’ve probably launched things before that didn’t really work. They didn’t know why. And there’s the kind of the key context which is really important, which is that they want to be able to do it on their own without hiring more people.  And so this needs to be something that they can actually when I create a solution for them and I try to sell them that solution, those are always really important things to do. Now I could have my message be, you know, work three hours, like, a week from the beach, and, like, make money while you sleep. That’s a great dream to sell. That’s kind of the why. But that message doesn’t work anymore with people because they’ve seen it too much, and it doesn’t really speak to the real job that they’re trying to get.  So I think it’s really important to balance that kind of like aspirational why messaging with really getting clear on your differentiated value when you understand the job your customers are trying to get done and the nitty gritty details, you can get clear on that. Rob Marsh: That’s an incredibly valuable look into what we all need to be doing with our customers and our clients that we’re attracting to us. I would love to shift our conversation a little bit and talk more about your newsletter. There’s a thing that’s happened around newsletters over the last couple of years where creators are growing, tools have emerged—Beehiiv and Substack and Kit—are creating great tools for, not just growing newsletters, but serving clients. How have you grown your newsletter? Because I think everybody does it a little bit differently. I know you have been on social media and Twitter quite a bit in the past, and showing up in various places, but we talked about how we all start with no one reading our newsletter. How did you go from zero to where you are now? And I think it’s like 80,000 something. Katelyn Bourgoin: So we’re now down to like 63,000. And I’ve been really fortunate. So I’ll share the things that are now available to anybody starting a newsletter. I actually got fairly early access to some of these. So we built from zero to 10,000 based on promoting basically through my social network and through some collaborations with other newsletters. So us promoting them, they promoting us. That was from zero to 10,000 we got there within, I think, probably a year and a half, you know, about 18 months from zero to 10,000 so that was very much like not being super. I think it was like 89,000 but not being super, you know, tactful about it, but what I did do that was smart, and I’ve stopped doing and we’re going to start redoing, was every, um, every Monday, before the newsletter would go out on Tuesday, I would plug, kind of like, tease what the issue was going to be, and I would share a screenshot of, like, some kind of like, unsolicited praise of the newsletter. And that was, I think, the smartest thing that I did, because a reminded people to sign up. So I think a lot of newsletter creators don’t do they don’t remind people to sign up. And it showed that other people were liking the newsletter, and it created this kind of like virtuous flywheel, because then other people would see that post, then we’re reading the newsletter already, and they go, Oh my god, this is my favorite newsletter too. And so I could get more screenshots.  So that was one smart thing that I did in the beginning, but because we had gotten to about 10,000 I was on a call with Nathan Berry from Kit, and I was actually on his podcast, and he told me about some cool things that they were doing over at that. It was then ConvertKit, now Kit to help newsletter operators to grow their list faster. And I was on a different platform at the time, and it’s like, super exciting. And so I moved over to Kit, and I was an early user of a platform called Sparkloop, which Kit has since acquired. And the Sparkloop team, it was this great new like feature, and they were the first to release it. And it was something that a lot of the big newsletter brands had been doing very manually, but spark made it easy, which was after somebody would sign up for my newsletter, they would see a recommendation of three to five newsletters that I also recommended, and they could choose to then, with one click, sign up for those newsletters too. So we got early beta access to this before it was available to the public, which helped us to grow a lot faster than we would have had we not had access to that early. And so we partnered with a number of other newsletters and promote promoted each other, and that made a big difference in our growth.  And then, since then, a lot of the growth it still comes from, you know, plugging the newsletter, consistently doing it. We had been testing different Facebook ads to grow the the audience. It worked, but we didn’t see that those readers became buyers within a window of that made sense. So we kind of scrapped that. We might go back to that and then Sparkloop has a paid partnership program in addition to the organic ones, the organic one is, I promote you. You promote me. Nobody pays. If you want to take advantage of their paid program, you can actually set a rate for I will pay X amount of dollars for every subscriber, and then other newsletters will send you subscribers that’s been hit and miss for us, because there’s definitely some folks out there that think have found ways to game that system and spark group. Of course, had to tamper down on that. But again, when we would look at the purchase behavior from some of those subscribers and it come from the paid campaigns, it just wasn’t making sense to continue to grow through that channel. So we were not doing that right now. Rob Marsh: That’s interesting, that there’s so much power in organic. Obviously what you do when you’re working organically and putting out the content that you know resonates or whatever results in the people who are going to continue following you and buy from you, which I guess that makes a lot of sense, but also makes you just maybe look a little bit of chance at some of the paid tools. I think I need to make sure that the stuff actually brings buyers into into my audience.  Katelyn Bourgoin: Well, I’ve seen a lot of newsletter operators, and I hate to say that’s a lot of folks who have really, kind of like, gotten high on their own supply when it comes to, like these paid subscriber channels. And I suspect that some of them are not doing the evaluation to see. Are these valuable? Are these folks? Because the thing of the way that spark loop works now, other tools are different, but the way that spark loop works is that people are auto enrolled, rather than needing to click to choose which newsletters they want to like they want to subscribe to when they see that pop up, and my assumption is a lot of people don’t even realize they’re signing up for newsletters. A pop up happened. And we’re used to seeing pop ups, not processing them, closing them, or clicking the button that looks like the button to close it without really, like, analyzing it. I know that that’s totally the way that I navigate the Internet, so I think that there’s probably a lot of folks who sign up for a newsletter that they were excited about signing up for and inadvertently end up on a couple more. And of course, the goal is, if you can create a lot of value, you can show people why you should earn a spot in their inbox. They’ll stay subscribed. And we have a very special sequence when we were running this for those people to make sure that if they you know, that they would know how they got there, that they’d have to make it really easy for them to opt out, and that we would provide a lot of value in the welcome sequence that they’d want to stay engaged. And if they didn’t engage with a certain amount of emails within their first I think, like 14 days, meaning that they’d open and click and things like that, we could then auto unenroll, unsubscribe them and not pay for those. So that was not something that spark that initially heads had released, which is why we ended up doing this big culling of subscribers who probably had no idea that they got on our list, and we didn’t do a good job of actually warming them up at the time. So we got better at that over the years.  Rob Marsh: So speaking of that initial welcome sequence, I could be wrong, but I’m thinking you actually offered a secret gift at some point, right where you didn’t promise the gift up front. There was no expectation from anybody who signed up, but it was one of those wow experiences, where, as a subscriber, I’m like, oh, suddenly, you’re giving me something that’s way better than what I even requested when I signed up. Tell me a little bit about that.  Katelyn Bourgoin: So I went into this not really having a name for it, but Chennel Bastilo, who has the newsletter that’s all about growing newsletters, which is called Growth in Reverse. She coined this as being the reverse lead magnet strategy. So I’ll use her language.  It’s a reverse lead magnet. But essentially, my thinking was, you know, being a buyer psychology nerd, one of the fastest ways to build trust with a, you know, with somebody in your audience, is to delight them. And to delight somebody means that it’s something that’s unexpected, right? If we know that we’re going to get some we’re going to get something, then it’s not delightful. It’s just you know what the expectation was fulfilled, and therefore we might be content and satisfy it, but it’s not delightful. Delight is when something happens that you don’t expect. So it’s when they sign up for a lead magnet and it’s so much better than they expected, which is so often not the case, right?  We all have a folder somewhere on our Google Drive that’s full of the lead magnets that, like, were super hyped and really shitty. So people have an expectation that things probably aren’t gonna be that good. If you actually deliver something really good, they’ll be delighted, and you’ll have a great experience. So I thought with, again, knowing that we were investing money, particularly into Spark glue and ads at the time to get this cold audience that didn’t know me, had not signed up because they discovered me on social to kind of create this great experience with them. I was like, How do I delight them at the gate? And that was where the idea came from. And, you know, selfishly, the way, there was a strategy behind this too, because we had then gone back and we ended up creating these journey based welcome sequences.  So one of the first things that we’d ask people is like, what’s your current problem? And we would they had two options to pick, and if they depending on which one they picked, we created a really great onboarding for them, each with a surprise gift, each with like, really value packed emails, but also subtly mentioning our too big products. We don’t, it wasn’t aggressive, there was no promotion or anything like that. But that was, you know, part of the goal is, yeah, we want to be able to delight these people and add them. We also want to remind them this is a pain point that you have, and we want to help them to overcome that pain point with the freebie that they didn’t expect to get, and with, you know, a couple of really insightful emails that people love, and then we want to tell them also, there’s a solution to help you with that problem. And we’ve got, like, if you’re interested, so that we kind of revised things from our initial which was just, here’s this one freebie, and then they would just start getting the newsletter to creating this kind of like mini welcome sequence, depending on their pain points.  Rob Marsh: I love that strategy. When I heard of that, I thought that’s just brilliant. Just the surprise that you get and the trust and immediate liking that it engenders is just a really great tactic. So I guess congrats on inventing that, or discovering it, or, you know… Katelyn Bourgoin: I’m sure I didn’t invent it… I feel like, should I have anything coined? A great phrase, and I hope the laws will use it. Rob Marsh: Yeah, it’s a great idea. Okay, so your newsletter is really about persuasion. You know why we buy all these cognitive biases that we have tendencies that you know, I would love just to. Talk a little bit about some of these now, copywriters, content writers, marketers, we’re all familiar with the pretty typical, you know, six or seven of the theinfluence techniques that Cialdini writes about. So, you know, urgency and scarcity and liking and consistency, right? We get these drilled into our heads all the time. But there’s not just seven or six. There are literally hundreds of these, and you read about a different one each week. So I’m curious, like, what are your favorite three or four? Katelyn Bourgoin: I’ll give you two, and then I might give you a third one. Okay, so I’d say that my favorite that I’ve discovered was what’s known as the pratfall effect, which is as somebody who is a perfectionist and, you know, toils over making mistakes and being seen as uncredible, this was like a huge relief for me. So the pratfall effect is essentially this idea that when we are evaluating a person or a brand, small imperfections can actually make us like and trust that thing more, because we don’t trust perfect, because we know that it’s not real, right? When something seems too good to be true, our spidey senses start tingling, and so as a create the idea, the study that was one of the ones that started to identify this effect in people, was they would have people interview for a job. I think it was like for a job application. But they’d have these interviewers interviewing these people, and they’d have actors go and they were instructed to actually mistakenly spill a bit of coffee on themselves, like at the beginning of the interview. And that, you know, that mistake that they made actually made the interviewers feel ingratiated to them, and made them rank them more highly on characteristics. And this is the important thing, that there’s a caveat for this. If you’re going to be making a mistake, and people will like you for it, it shouldn’t be a mistake that makes you seem uncredible in your expertise. So if you’re a mathematician, and somebody asked you, what’s two plus two, and you say seven, that is not going to initiate this effect. But if you’re a mathematician who’s great at the math stuff, but then, you know, again, you like to be example, you spill a bit of coffee on yourself, or you have, you make kind of a mistake or a typo or something like that, that can actually make people like you more. So pratfall effect is one of my favorites. Another that’s powerful, and I think not doesn’t get enough credit, is the Fresh Start effect. So as marketers, when we are planning our promotions, one thing that you need to be aware of is the psychological brain of your buyer, and the idea that there are moments, there are these temporal moments in time where we start to think that things that we didn’t believe in the past, or things that we might have been skeptical about, kind of all wash away, and we’re open to making kind of some bigger changes. And these are these fresh start moments. So the mother of all fresh start moments, New Year’s Eve, right? Like, ah, it’s the beginning of a new year. You know, last year I might have been all of these things that didn’t help me achieve my goal, didn’t get me where I want to go. But this year, I’m going to be this completely different person. This year, I’m going to be able to change all of that, right?  And so when you can put a message in front of somebody, when they’re likely to have experienced one of these fresh starts, they’re going to be way more open to your message. And fresh starts aren’t just that once a year. You know? It can also be Mondays, right? We all enter the new week being like this week will be different. It can be at your birthday. It can be a, you know, the beginning of another quarter. It can be after getting a divorce, like there are so many of these moments that happen in the lives of people, and if you can get your message in front of them at the right time to take advantage of the fresh start, they’re going to be far more open to being receptive to your message. So those are two that I love.  I’ll give you one more, because it’s kind of aligned with giving a bonus one. And that’s the Peak/End rule. So the way that we remember and experience something basically comes down to two things, what was the peak, and whether that’s good or bad, and how did it end? And so if you want to create a really good memory for your customers, right, you want to make sure that the peak is high and positive, then at the end is positive and high, right? And so they did this interesting study where there was this, this colon exam that they were they were doing, and they’d have people, after they went through it report how, like, you know, how much they you know, what their experience was with one to 1010, being not a pleasant experience, in the least, right? And one being, yeah, it was okay. And what they noticed was that there was this painful part of the examination, and then it would just end, right? People were ranking it really high on the unpleasant like stage, they’re like, What happens if we do the unpleasant part? Because the unpleasant part has to happen. It’s it’s the peak. It’s unpleasant, but it has to happen. But then, instead of it just being over, we actually kind of did a few other things. So we’d like maybe take their blood pressure, or we’d like do an abdominal exam, or like something beyond that, and then it would end with, like, something more pleasant. Then people actually ranked it not being so bad. So this idea that if you do have to deliver bad news, be careful about how you deliver it. Don’t just end abruptly, try to, like, smooth it out, and ideally have a very positive peak.  This happened to me the other day. It’s a great example of a mistake that a company is making around us. I went to the a great spa. It’s a beautiful Nordic Spa here in Quebec City, and when you like, you know, you come into the place, they’re very quick to greet you, and it’s lovely, and the service is excellent. And then you go and you have your day at the spa, and there’s these beautiful plunge pools and all these different things. So everybody would have kind of different peaks of their experience. But then at the end, they made this massive mistake, which is the people who are waiting to check out, they serve all of them last they pay more attention to people who are waiting to get in. It doesn’t matter when those people arrive. Some people that are waiting to check out are sitting here and they’re watching all of the like staff ignore them and instead greet the people who just arrived even later than they’ve been waiting. And I thought, this is strange, like we’ve been here longer. There’s kind of the rules of society, which is that you see people as they as they cued in the line. And my mom, she’s kind of less patient than I am. She’s starting to get frustrated. And ultimately, I’m like, I just had a great day at the spa. I’m going to be chilled with this, but yeah, that’s a little bit annoying. And then I went to tag the spa in a picture later that day, and in doing that, I went on their Facebook page, and I saw all of these low reviews, and the common thing they were complaining about was the checkout experience. So it’s like you’ve just created this amazing day for your customers. And their thinking is probably, you know what? Let’s make sure that when they first get here, they feel so welcome and support, it’s going to create a great first experience. But what they don’t realize is that they’re actually hurting themselves way more by creating a bad end experience. And so the peak end rule is one of my favorites, and I think that we should all think about it. If we’re doing anything that is, it’s an experience that we want people to remember positive. Rob Marsh: As freelancers, anytime we’re handing off a finished project, oftentimes we’re handing somebody a Google Doc, it may even still have correction marks in it, or whatever, you know, compared to the kid glove, or the white glove service that we provide, you know, when we’re doing an onboarding interview. Yeah, so, so many applications there.  And even when you were talking about the Fresh Start effect earlier, you mentioned understanding trigger events. And trigger events are another opportunity for a fresh start. Anytime that you know a customer or somebody that you’re talking to has one of these experiences where it’s like, wow, I am never doing that again, or I this is the last time I go a week without a client or like, that is the opportunity for a fresh start that’s not triggered by, say, a Monday or a new year, right?  Katelyn Bourgoin: Yes, yeah, absolutely. I think that being a marketer, and, you know, I write a lot of copy, I don’t know what I would call myself. I would say I feel I lean more into the identification as a marketer than a copywriter, because I feel like there’s so many better copywriters in me. But I think that we get to have the coolest job, which is we basically don’t get to be these very curious like, we just get to examine humans and try to understand them. And I think that getting to do that is cool because, like, ultimately, we all kind of want to understand ourselves too. So the more that you understand other people, the more clarity gives you on yourself. And so I just think we’re very lucky that we get to spend our time thinking about this stuff. Rob Marsh: Yeah, I agree. And how to help people solve their problems, or move from you know, the before to the after, from you know, the problem to the solution. In some ways, it’s a gift to be able to do this thing that we all get to do.  Katelyn Bourgoin: It absolutely is, and there are so many great products out there and great entrepreneurs out there that they deserve to be better known. They deserve for their work to be recognized. They deserve to get customers that they can help. And so I think that it really sometimes, there’s been periods in my life where, as a marketer, I’ve felt a little bit, I don’t know, I guess, a little bit frustrated, that I don’t feel like I’m making a difference in a meaningful way, right? There’s been times where I’m like, Oh, I just like, help B to B. Software companies sell more software. But like, then when I kind of like, reframe it, and I remember, no, like, those people are selling real solutions that are going to make their individual customers lives a lot better. That might mean that person’s more productive, and I get to hire another team member, and that means they get to go on the big. Peace with their family and their marriage doesn’t break up. But there’s all sorts of positive things that can come from helping people to solve their problems. And I think that sometimes when I get stuck in this, like, it just feels like I’m gonna, you know, that I I think a little bit about, like, should I just, like, get into, like, political marketing, like, I have moments, and then I’m like, No, you’re, you know, as long as you go back to helping people figure out what problem they’re solving and how to solve it better and to promote that and communicate that better, it’s a great day.  Rob Marsh: This feels like a really good end note. Again, thinking about Peak End, that’s maybe a really good way to finish up here. You have some really cool products, I’ve mentioned them in our email, the wallet opening words is a download that you have, that I’m definitely going to link to in the show notes and share when we share this episode in our email. But if people want to get on your list, and learn more about all of this stuff, the cognitive biases, persuasion, how we get people to actually buy, and do it in a way that’s ethical and serves their needs, Katelyin, where should they go? Katelyn Bourgoin: They should go to learn whywebuy.com. Rob Marsh: Perfect. So hopefully we’ll have everybody who’s listening jump in there and can they’ll see why I’ve become such a fan of your work, what you do,  Katelyn Bourgoin: Thank you for letting me get introduced to your people. Rob Marsh: Yeah, this has been phenomenal. I appreciate your time.  Thanks to Katelyn for talking so deeply about the techniques we need to undertand in order to sell more… if you’re listening to this the week it goes live, Katelyn is teaching a buyer breakthrough workshop on Thursday at Noon Eastern Time. If you get on her list, you may be able to sign up for that workshop… go to learnwhywebuy.com. I also mentioned Wallet Opening Words… this is a PDF full of tactics like the Peak End Effect, the Pratfall Effect, and the Fresh Start Effect that you can put to work in your own writing and sales efforts. In addition to those three, I think there are like 67 more psychological tactics you can use in Wallet Opening Words. I’ve linked to it in the show notes, but if you go to thecopywriterclub.com/wow you can get that resource from Katelyn. I have it. I refer to it often. It’s great and probably belongs on your virtual shelf too. And of course there are lots of resources around persuasion and psychology in The Copywriter Underground. If you’re a member, you’ll find those resources in the new dashboard. And if you’re not a member, you can fix that now at thecopywriterclub.com/tcu.

Can copywriters who run a service business attract good clients using Facebook ads? The short answer is “yes”. Facebook Ads Strategist, Tara Zirker, is my guest for this episode The Copywriter Club Podcast, and she explained that not only can they use FB ads to attract clients, they may be able to do it for as little as $10/a day… and that could attract dozens of leads—more than you would need to hit six figures. Want to know how to do it? Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.   Stuff to check out: Your Ad Kit (Tara’s Newsletter) The Successful Ads Club The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground   Full Transcript: Rob Marsh: Do you think of Facebook ads as a tool for growing your copywriting business? If not, it might be time to update your thinking. This is The Copywriter Club Podcast. This is not the first time we’ve talked about Facebook ads on this podcast. I think I keep coming back to this topic because I see so much potential here—both for our own businesses and for our clients’ products and services. This is the kind of strategic skill that helps set some copywriters apart from most others. When you understand the ins and outs of driving paid traffic to your offers, you become imenselly valuable as a writer. And if you use these skills for your own products and services, you could create an almost endless pipeline of customers ready to pay for your help. But, for some reason, Facebook ads feels difficult. You’ve probably heard the same stories that I have of a creator who turns on ads and steps away for the weekend, only to wake up Monday morning to bill for thousands of dollars and no leads to show for the ad spend. This is something you probably can’t set it and forget it, at least as you’re gettinng started. I wanted to understand more about using ads and the analytics we need to pay attention to when we start using them to maximize our experience. So I invited Facebook ad strategist and founder of the Successful Ads Club, Tara Zirker, to walk me through all of this. We talked about how to scale a business with ads on a tiny budget… like $10 a day… what metrics you need to watch, what to test and what you can not bother with and a lot more. I’ve been on Tara’s list for quite a while and really appreciate her approach for running ads to your business… and yes, this works for service businesses like copywriters and content writers. Tara is about to tell us all how to do that in this interview. Before we get to my interview with Tara, this episode is brought to you by The Copywriter Underground. If you haven’t jumped in to see what the Underground includes, now is the time. It’s guaranteed, which means you can join and if you don’t find the resources you need to grow your business, just let us know and we’ll refund your money. But I doubt that will be your experience because The Underground includes more than 70 different workshops—and accompanying playbooks to help you gain the skills and strategies you need to build your business. The Playbooks make it easy to find quick solutions to the challenges you face in your business everything from finding clients, conducting sales calls, using A.I., building authority on LinkedIn or YouTube or Pinterest, and dozens of other workshops. You also get dozens of templates including a legal agreement you can use with your clients, monthly coaching, regular copy and funnel critiques, and more. You can learn more and join today by visiting thecopywriterclub.com/tcu.  And now, my interview with Tara Zirker… Tara, welcome to the podcast. I’m thrilled to have you here, as I was telling you, right before we hit record. But before we get into all of this stuff around Facebook, Facebook ads and your expertise, just tell me how you got to where you are. How did you become the expert in Facebook ads?  Tara Zirker: Thanks so much, Rob. I’m so happy to be here and talk to your community. And basically, a very long story short is I actually got my start in journalism. So come from the copy world. I actually ended started in editorial, and pretty quickly they must have recognized something, because they asked if I want to take on a couple of advertorial assignments, and that just became my place. I was like, loving it. It was so fun. And I just love seeing the results that you had from writing copy and having your clients get conversions. And so that started to expand pretty quickly, until, you know, I eventually went freelance. Had a full book of business in varying freelance services, everything from blogging, social media to SEO and, you know, just the whole kit and caboodle.  Developed a small agency, and then I had one client who kind of did a bait and switch. They hired us for social media, and when, you know, day one, they’re like, actually, we need you to run ads. I was like, whoa, whoa. And this was way, way, way back when. I mean, I think Meta had had ads running for just a couple of years, and they had just launched ads for app downloads, and that was what my client was in hospitality, and they had an app. And so we started working on ads for downloads, and pretty soon I got a call from Meta, and we had a lot of budget there, so we’re very well resourced, and got a lot of face time with Meta. This was back when you had Meta’s phone number, you could literally call.  Rob Marsh: That doesn’t happen any more. Tara Zirker: So anyways, we got a call from Meta, and they said, you are outperforming everyone in your industry. How are you doing this? And you know, and they wanted to know what tricks, how we were thinking about their features, and how we were using them to outperform our competitors. Well, this was hospitality, and that was kind of a big deal. So I was like, whoa, maybe there’s something here. And I took those same strategies to every single one of our clients. I’m like, Hey, can I run ads for you? I just want to test and see [what we could do], we’re seeing great success signals with one client. I want to test it across several and see how it works and start getting great success for our clients, everything from brick and mortar to service based providers and more. Eventually, online course, creators, coaches, consultants, things like that.  From there, once I saw the power of ads. I could not look away, I could not turn back. I was like, we’re going all in. So that’s what we did. And now we have had several agencies in the ad space, as well as our training company, which is publicly what we’re most well known for, and absolutely love it. So I know you teach people how to do this.  Rob Marsh: Obviously you learned it through a lot of trial and error and experience. You have programs that help this. But let’s say somebody wanted to get up to speed really quickly on Facebook, ads running for clients, or maybe for themselves. Is there a shortcut for learning this stuff? Or do you have to have the program? Tara Zirker: There’s lots of ways to learn. I mean, even Meta. So when we say Meta, of course, we’re talking about Facebook, Instagram, WhatsApp, the whole family suite of apps. Meta has some great training called Blueprint. You can learn for free. We have a really quick, condensed, accelerated training for people who want to learn how to do their own ads. You know, the thing that I’ve had to learn to get really, really good at Rob and you probably share the same thing being kind of in that educator role is how to take complex things and shorten them, make them very quick, very easy to digest. You know, we teach small business owners how to run ads. Our lessons are 20 minutes a piece. They have to be able to get them up and running. We always say, ads up and running within a couple of hours, results the same day. And that’s because you have to teach very, very quickly. So I could even teach some frameworks that anybody could learn today and be able to start to understand how ads work.  But it’s honestly so simple, and I think that copywriters, if you’re wanting to run ads for yourself, or maybe you’re thinking you would like to learn a little bit more about ads so you could offer copywriting services, for ads right? For social ads as a niche service, or maybe you want to add ads as an entire skill set. It’s honestly really easy to learn, and it’s getting easier by the day, because the algorithm is so smart at this point that it’s getting harder to mess it up. There’s definitely a few things you can do to mess it up, pretty bad, but it’s getting harder to do that, which is pretty cool. So copywriters have a really cool opportunity, I think, to understand advertising, because you, for the most part, understand the strategy and conversion and ads obviously have to turn into sales, or it’s not worth it.  And copywriters, I think, are uniquely positioned to really quickly just add a few buttons to their skill set already and start to see success.  Rob Marsh: Yeah, that makes total sense. And I’m glad to hear you say that it’s getting easier, because my sense of particularly Facebook ads—using the ad manager and setting up the accounts, and I’ve seen people, you know, set it up and suddenly, over the weekend, you know, they didn’t set the right limits, and suddenly they owe $2,000 its just crazy. So hearing you say, it’s actually getting easier and better is good. Tara Zirker: It sounds good, right? Because there’s so many of those nightmares that we hear that probably keep a lot of us who ought to be experimenting with ads out of doing this 100% and I will say too. Ads really picked up a terrible reputation with the iOS 14 updates, where the privacy policies of Apple essentially cascaded to all the platforms. But Meta was the hardest hit, and essentially said you can’t do your tracking. That was several years ago, and that reputation continues after iOS 14. The tracking now, I would say, is almost as good as it ever has been, if not better on some accounts and so, yeah, there’s been a change, I think most people now have recognized, okay, that was, like, a short lived scare. But, you know, the iOS 15 updates also impacted email, and I think that starting to roll out, where people are realizing what’s happened over the last couple years with email has been pretty dramatic and traumatic for business owners, and so you do have to adapt. And there’s lots of things that change. You do have to stay on top of it. There are, you know, things that shift quite frequently, but our job is to do that for you, so to make it really simple and easy to run and so that you’re always staying ahead of what’s going on. But here’s the thing, you just have to have a different mindset about it, because all the platforms change, marketing changes all the time. AI has completely disrupted what will happen in marketing for the next, like, five to 10 years, and it’s it’s changing very quickly, so you may as well learn ads and have a little bit more control over your ability to get your own leads and not have to depend on such rapidly changing social algorithms and things like that.  Rob Marsh: So before we talk about some of the things we need to have in place before we’re ready to do ads. Can you maybe just give us a minute or two on why ads are a better channel, or at least a complimentary channel to just organic traffic on places like Instagram or Facebook or whatever? Why should we be doing ads?  Tara Zirker: Absolutely. Once you feel the difference of ads in your business, it’s hard to want to ever do anything organic again, because really, you control the flow, and it is, and I’m not saying you really do need to do the organic things that do impact your business. Need to be consistent. You need to have those disciplines of a business owner in that way. However, ads are kind of the easy button. They’re the shortcut. You can just grow and scale so much quicker and build your leads.  A great example of this is I have one very, very minor funnel inside of my business. It attracts a very sub niche of business owners, but it monetizes really well. So it’s under the radar. Hardly anyone knows it, unless you see that particular funnel, and I spend $10 a day on that funnel, and it generates about anywhere from seven to 10 leads for me per day. So let’s just say, on average, it’s like 250 to 300 leads per month. And what I always tell people, and when I teach, when I show people this funnel, they’re like, oh my goodness, how do I create one of those? And what I always say is, like, if you can like, oh, and I should say, this took me about three hours to set up originally, that includes writing the content piece of it, and it takes me about 10 minutes or less per month to maintain although, frankly, I haven’t spent more than a couple minutes in like months on this thing. So I always say, if you’re spending more than like 10 minutes a month to generate 250, 300 leads a month, then you should be considering ads, because that is just so easy. There’s nothing to it. It took me a couple of hours to set up this, by the way, was about three or four years ago, I spend about 10 minutes per month maintaining it at the very most. I mean, every like, once a year or so, I have to spend maybe an hour or so kind of refreshing a few things. So I just think, like, if you can, and that’s a great example of why I say the shortcut, the easy button. It’s like, well, if you’re spending more than $10 and that’s $10 a day, so 300 bucks a month, if you’re spent, you know, you spend probably that much in time and energy, and maybe even a team with your social media. I mean, it’s worth it to have at least as a compliment, ads running so that your organic traffic is staying or, I should say ads are keeping your brand much more top of mind for your organic traffic, and you’re able to monetize that organic traffic as well. I will also say you’re able to control the levers a little bit more. You know, with an organic post, you never know if it’s gonna get, you know, if it’s gonna go viral for you, or if it’s just gonna sit there and do nothing and get, you know, 10 likes or whatever, with, at least with ads. Number one, you’re able to test very, very quickly. And number two, you’re able to, like, just have more consistent results and force meta to work for you.  Okay, so it’s like a 24/7 sales person that’s just always working for you. It’s how I like to describe it. Yeah, I can, I imagine a lot of people listening to like, whoa, wait a second. You know, 250 leads for $300 that feels. Pretty, pretty good, or 200 leads, whatever that ends up being.  Rob Marsh: Can I just quickly ask, is that for a product or a service that is for a lead magnet and it builds a very sub niche?  Tara Zirker: So I want to caveat that and say that is very, very, very niche. The average cost per lead for, let’s just say, unless you have, like, a very niche sort of product or service or something like that, you’re going to pay more that’s like, so optimized. It’s start to finish, you know. And also it’s for a niche that just is underserved. And so it’s a very, very cheap lead that actually monetizes very well on the back end. But it’s also a very small market. It really, I mean, the most I could probably spend on it, it would be, I don’t know, $50, $60, a day. It’s not meant to, like, blow up my business, right? It’s not meant to have a $20,000 a month budget on it, but it works very well for what it is supposed to do. We have, like, a whole metric spreadsheet of how much you should be expecting to spend based on your industry, your niche and your funnel type. And those are three really important things to understand. And I would say maybe three to $8 is probably more average. So you’re not going to get maybe that many leads, but you’re going to qualify those leads. You’re going to know they’re really high value, and you’re gonna be able to, obviously make offers on the back end of that.  Rob Marsh: I mean, even hearing you talk about that, though, there’s a lot of help there, because copywriters who want to serve smaller niches or undersized like, there’s really big opportunities out there if you’re willing to step away from finance or coaching, you know, these big niches where there’s a lot of stuff happening and everybody seems to want to flock there. It’s like, find the smaller niche, and there’s a massive opportunity.  Tara Zirker: Yes, and I would say, I mean, I think that we all will find our our little pocket, you know, whether it be a little bit more broader in the market, or whether you do niche down, but I think that is just a great little nugget for success in general. And what I’ve seen in business is, you know, when you can niche down, and wherever you can find that profitable niche, you can go deep, so much easier, right? So much easier to qualify your ideal client and to get better, higher quality clients too, who, number one, pay more, but number two are easier to work with.  Rob Marsh: Yeah, agreed. Let’s talk about what we need to have in place then, before we can even think about, you know, running ads. Obviously if you don’t have a product or an offer, you shouldn’t be running ads. But what else should we be thinking about so when we do run ads, we hit the ground running, and we maximize our chances for success.  Tara Zirker: That’s right, the first thing that you need is some sort of entry offer. So let’s just say, if you’re focused on building your list, this could be a, I mean, there’s any number of ways to do this. This could be a training if you wanted to do that, or a video, sales letter. This could also be something like some sort of download or free guide, and I will say that where we see the most success with our members and clients is when what they are offering is very specific. So don’t think General. You know, this is the guide for small business owners who want to hire their next copywriter? No, like that is just way too general. So you want something very niche, specific, if you can, and I will say that things like tools perform better than like ebooks. So if we’re thinking like a checklist or a spreadsheet or a it could be like a formula guide or something like that, but if you can think of it as more of a tool versus like an ebook, you’re going to have a much better chance of success. So anything that kind of is a time saver for your client, is going to be like, very magnetic to that client. Rob Marsh: Okay, that makes sense. So we definitely want that. What else do we need to make sure that we’re ready to go?  Tara Zirker: Yeah, so you want some sort of entry level offer, and I will say too. I will say too. And again, it depends on, I would say level of sophistication with how comfortable you are building and optimizing your quote, unquote funnel, but basically the sales process. But there are plenty of service based providers who are taking folks to a very short video sales letter. So it could be oriented around a result, or oriented around mistakes or something like that, and then an application like right under it. And so you’re going to pay more for your leads, but you’re also maybe going to get folks who want your services, like applying right there for your services.  There’s lots and lots of different funnels, so you’re going to have some sort of entry level. Will offer that people are excited to get more information, take that next step with you, and then from there, this is where you now. You’re starting to set up your ads, right so you want to think about a lot of folks will mistake boosting posts or running traffic ads as true kind of back end ads. And I will tell you honestly, there is a tiny bit of value in those, but you only want to spend about 10% of your budget there, 80% of your budget you want to be spending on conversion ads. And in order to do conversion ads, you have to install tiny, tiny bit of tech. Little tech that goes on the back end of your website is called a pixel. You’re gonna install a little bit of code, and this is the ad tech that allows meta to talk to your website and say, Okay, we got conversion. Let’s go find more people that look like that conversion. And that is what allows your ads to get better and better and better. A lot of times, people mistake that they’re boosting a post, they’re running traffic ads, and they think I’m running ads. They’re not working. They never would from that strategy. It’s not really a strategy. It’s like meta is really cheap, inexpensive way of advertising that rarely yields results.  A great example of this, we had one member come in. Her name was Karen. She’s a realtor, and so service based, and she had spent 1600 bucks and had between an ADS budget and a marketing team, and unfortunately that marketing team was doing traffic ads. I said, this is going to both like, delight you and totally like depress you too… so we’re gonna relaunch this. We’re gonna install that pixel. All we’re gonna do is change one button and tell Meta we want this type of person, not just a traffic somebody who will click but not convert. And she, within 72 hours, she had spent 60 bucks. She had 40 leads. And so it’s just knowing the buttons to push and making sure that the tech is set up correctly. And so that’s going to be your next step. You guys set up a tiny, tiny bit of tech, and you’ve got to make sure that everything is going to be able to track, because that is what allows Facebook to really optimize and make sure it’s working as an actual salesperson for your team, not just like you know difference between having a sales conversation, like having a salesperson versus someone who’s like, just holding the sign on the corner and flipping it around like, that’s the difference in how you set up your ads.  From there, everyone’s most favorite part on this podcast. You’re going to write your copy. There you go. Easy peasy. We probably don’t even have to talk about that very much, but there are a few mistakes with ad copy that we could talk through. You’re gonna write your copy. Design your ads doesn’t have to be crazy. 60% of conversions are still coming from static imagery. So people think, I’ve gotta do these videos, got to be crazy. Yes, you should incorporate some video if you can, but you can start with static images, and most conversions still happen from static and then from there, you’re going to actually build your ad, takes about 10 minutes, and you’re going to launch it. And the actual hard part is, after the launch, it’s looking at the metrics, it’s knowing which four metrics to look at, what to optimize based on that data, and honestly, depending on your budget. From there, it’s just monitoring your ads, and it doesn’t have to take a lot of time.  Rob Marsh: I want to come back to the four metrics we need to watch, but you mentioned boosting posts, and you said there is a use case where that makes sense. I’m curious what that is, because I’ve heard the same thing. You know, most boosted posts, it’s a waste of money. Don’t do it. But obviously there’s a reason. So when should we be boosting posts?  Tara Zirker: That’s right. So you can boost, here’s what I will say. I would definitely endorse this, this strategy, if you’re boosting the top 10% of your content, I think this is content that is, it’s already like, getting a lot of visits, a lot of attention, and maybe you’re noticing and and you would need to decide based on what you’re looking for out of your content. Maybe you’re noticing it’s generating a lot of DMS. Maybe you’re noticing it’s generating a lot of followers. Maybe you’re noticing it generates a lot of clicks to your bio. So whatever it is, whatever those kinds of goals are for you, that’s how I would qualify your top 10% and it also could just be views, and that showing, like audience engagement, and you know, that sort of thing. And then here’s what you can do. You can actually repurpose that content as your ads. Okay, so you can make this really easy on yourself, and you can repurpose that as some of your ad creative that’s going to go to that entry level offer. And then the other. That you can do is boost it, and then on the back end, you’re retargeting that engagement with your conversion ads, so about 10% of your budget you can spend on that kind of ad, as long as so big caveat here, as long as you’re also retargeting that engagement with those conversion ads, and you’re saying, hey, Facebook, these people are interested. Go find the ones among them that are most likely to convert. And this is what I want them to do next. And that is the power. That’s the strategy right there.  Rob Marsh: Okay, that makes sense. So let’s talk about the metrics then that we need to be watching. We’re running ads. Maybe we’re putting $10 a day in it, so we’re sort of starting really basic. But what are we watching to make sure that we are actually having an impact on our business, and not just throwing Mark Zuckerberg more of our money?  Tara Zirker: First and foremost is your cost per result. We’ve got a big metric sheet of how much you should spend depending on your business, your industry, your niche, your funnel time. How much should this cost? Right? So let’s just say, if you’re targeting audience in a very competitive space, you might expect, you’re going to pay a little bit more per result, versus if you’re targeting a less competitive space, you’re going to pay less per result. So cost per result. And there’s lots of ways to kind of get a general, you know, foundation there, but I’ll just give a couple here. So let’s just say, if you are sending folks to some sort of initial opt in, that’s like a free guide or checklist, or maybe it’s like a, you know, whatever it is, I would say anywhere from three to $8 would be a really good range. And from there, I’d have to, like, slice and dice it a little bit more, depending on what that niche was, right?  But that’s like a good starting range. Let’s just say you’re sending people to book a consultation or recall something like that. That’s gonna be more expensive, that could be anywhere from 60 up to $500 and again, massive range I’d have to slice and dice it to tell you, like, a more specific range. I usually don’t like huge ranges, but let’s just say, you know, if I’m running maybe I’ve got a high ticket service, and it’s for folks in, like, the coaching space. Okay, probably 250 bucks a call, and I would give that range somewhere between 175 and, like, 300 so I’ve got, like, very specific ranges that I want you to be within.  The next thing that you’re going to look at is your CTR link, click through rate. So CTR link, click through rate. Click through rate on the link. And that is different than another metric that meta has called CTR all all in my mind, is totally junk metric. Rob, you know how, when you write ad copy, or you’re reading an ad and there’s that little more button, yeah? So they would count that as a link click, and we couldn’t care less about that,  Rob Marsh: So they’re just seeing the rest of the ad, and that’s counting it. Yeah, that’s garbage.  Tara Zirker: That’s garbage, right? Or maybe they go to your page, so you might be getting followers from it. But we don’t want to, we don’t want to count that. We don’t want to, like pay attention to that in our matrix of how we’re making decisions and spending money, right? So we want CTR link click through rate and not saying, Hey, I only want people who are clicking to the next step that’s really important. We want that above 1% and copywriters everywhere will love this. This is an easy fix. If that is under 1% meaning, for every 1000 folks that see our ad, we want 10 to well we want. We want 10 or more, usually, like one to 1.5% so 10 to 15 people to click to the next step. And if that’s under 1% or wasting money number one and number two, the easy fix is your ad copy and design. And so that’s where you can really go in and start to, you know, add in hooks, qualify your leads, more things like that. Okay, the next metric we’re looking at is CPM, which is your cost per 1000 impressions. Now, Facebook will do the math for you, but this is the amount that they’re going to be charging to your credit card. If you get one conversion, 10 doesn’t matter, or none, they’re still going to charge you based on your CPM, which is how competitive your ad is against other competitors, and blah, blah, blah, and that they do a big, complicated formula, and they’re saying, Okay, we’re going to charge Rob $30 per 1000 impressions. We’re going to charge Tara um $45 per 1000 impressions, right? So it’s, it’s a big, complicated thing, but we want to see that CPM under $42 if you’re spending more. And again, great news for copywriters. This is like easy to figure out. If it’s more than $42 on a cold audience. It means there is a trigger word in your ad copy, your design, on your landing page, or even in your URL.  And a great example of this was we had a client spending. Gosh, I think it was like a $70,000 budget. Maybe it was 100, something like that. But over a very short period of time, three weeks, and everything’s going great. The ads are doing awesome. All of a sudden, overnight, the ads went, I think it was from like $3 a lead, which was our target, was under five, to like 13 bucks a lead. I mean, it’s a launch ruining jump. It’s actually like quarters revenue, like worth of revenue ruining jump, right? And clients freaking out. We’re freaking out. We have very short period of time to fix this. And so I start testing ad copy like crazy. Me and my team were just pulling out words because what had happened was the CPM had risen that much. So CPM went from like $30 to like 150 bucks or something.  So we knew there was a trigger word, and ads have been running just fine for several days, um, but we had to go in and find that trigger word. So, man, we were, I mean, I got so little sleep during these few days. Finally, on the landing page. So I’m testing ad copy. I’m working with my rep, my reps like there’s literally nothing that I can see in the ad on like I don’t see any problem anywhere. And so I’m testing everything I can think of on the landing page. On the very, very bottom, imagine a really long landing page. There’s a call to action, and right under the call to action, in tiny, tiny print, it says, Bring a glass of bubbly and join the class. And I just had the thought, could bubbly be the word? Like it’s a reference, you know, kind of light reference to alcohol, and could that actually be the word. And so I, you know, I write to their team. I say, can you take this one word off of the landing page? And I, you know, they do that. Within an hour, I go, I launch new set of ads. And CPM, 30 bucks cost per lead, 350 and so that is, there’s certain words, and I have a whole list of them. There’s certain words that just make your ads more expensive, and we just call them trigger words. So that’s a great example of how one trigger word can totally wreck your campaign. And also, it’s also a great example if you get into copywriting for clients, the types of things you want to be aware of and really attuned to. And hopefully, you know, good media buyers should be attuned to those too, but not very many people are all the time, and so they just pay a lot more for their ads. We could be a lot less expensive. So, so you want CPM.  Final thing is your landing page conversion rate, and you’re spending money on ads, you want to make sure your landing page is as optimized as possible. Another great win for copywriters, because you can, you can test this. You can try different headline formulas. You’re seeing if your landing page is converting under the optimal ranges, simply go in and start testing, and for every 100 people that get to that landing page, you’re either going to say, great, that’s working better. Let’s move on to the next test. Or, oops, that’s not working as well. Let’s try something new, and you can get a lot of data very, very, very quickly.  We did this a couple months ago, I think it was, we had a landing page, kind of embarrassing for me to say, but it was converting at 12% which we never have.  Rob Marsh: That’s good.  Tara Zirker: Well, well, it was, it was for leads, though.  Rob Marsh: Oh, okay, I’m sorry. Okay, so sometimes you want a lead, converting maybe 30% 30 50% 100%. I thought you were talking about sales. Tara Zirker: You got it, Rob, If it were sales, I’d be like, Yeah, okay. Sadly, it wasn’t. And I was embarrassed, because I was like, man, well, we did rapid fire Landing Page Conversion Rate testing over 72 hours and had up to 28% we probably should have pushed it a little higher, but that was good enough that our ad costs were were stable enough because, you know, if I’m paying let’s just break down the math really simply, $10 to get 1000 impressions, and I have 1% conversion rate. That means I’ve got, I paid $10 to get 10 people to the page. Well, you can see how my costs would be affected if I have one person convert versus three. So that’s why you’ve got to know these things. Four simple metrics, you’ll be an expert on these if you just pay attention to them for an hour of your life, you will. And copywriters have such a good instinct for what to change, what needs to be tested, but an hour of your life to master these four metrics, and we teach it in, you know, 10 minutes, but really you pay attention for an hour of your life, you will be a master of these four metrics. And these four metrics control the fate of how successful your ads are, which could mean how successful your business is. Rob Marsh: I imagine this is going to change depending on how long you’ve been running ads. But how often should you be checking those metrics? Is it every day, every week? I tune in every quarter to see that things are still going what does that look like?  Tara Zirker: Exactly. So when you launch ads, you’re going to be looking at these every day for the first like three to five days. Then you’re going to look at them once a week. If you’re like most new advertisers, you’re going to be looking at them multiple times a day. But it’s unnecessary, I promise. And then, you know, honestly, it depends on what kind of funnel you’re running, but once things are kind of up and running once a month for a couple minutes, and those are the only four things you’re looking at, by the way, you can look at a whole bunch more. To me, there’s a lot of vanity metrics and a lot of like, fluffy things that just make no difference to the bottom line. Those four right there control everything that is successful about your ads. And so, yeah, once, once a month, the funnel I mentioned earlier is a once a month. Look, for me, with our main ad account where we’re driving folks to our successful ads accelerator, that’s a once a week.  Rob Marsh: How often should we be changing up creative? Obviously, the numbers that we’re looking at are gonna, you know, affect that. But I think one of the things that certainly worries me, and I’m sure worries a lot of other service providers, is the thought that, well, what I don’t want this to become is I need to come up with new creative and be testing new creative every three or four days, or even every couple of weeks. That becomes as hard a job as posting new stuff on social media organically all the time, right? So basically, I’ve just duplicated the difficulty of social media into my ads account. How often do we need to be looking at stuff like that?  Tara Zirker: Yeah, I just heard a recommendation of, and I was like, Absolutely not, not ever in the million years. Do you need this much? But I heard a recommendation out there, um, of 20 creatives per $1,000 and I was like, I’ve seen, never, would I ever, never.  Rob Marsh: People talk about, yeah, when you’re launching, you need to have 20 different ad sets, and you need to be sending certain amount of dollar amount until the algorithm figures out which one is the best. And then you’ve got to do you take those two or three and now you’ve got to do 10 different versions of those with different graphics or different copy, you know?  Tara Zirker: So, yeah, it starts to be like too much to even start to comprehend thing. There’s no way I want to do this. Never, when I would ever… Now, here’s the thing, when you do get up into bigger launch spends and you have a media buyer or an agency that you’re working with, their job is to be doing that level of creative iteration, not, not at Crazy volumes. There’s, there’s a point at which is just, it makes absolutely no sense, like you wouldn’t be able to efficiently test that amount with, you know, properly. So there’s, there’s a certain VA, there’s like a sweet spot of volume for every account. But let’s just put this in small business owner terms. If you are spending $1,000 or less, I mean, a great example. Well, I’ll use both of my accounts actually, one that spends, you know, into the five figures, and one that is like the $300 a month. One that $300 a month one, I’m doing creative update maybe once or twice a year. Very minor. It’s like, I’ll go into Canva, I’ll edit the colors, and I will maybe do a couple of copy variations. I’ll put it back into the algorithm. It rarely requires more testing than that. And that’s where I would say it’s about an hour investment if I’m kind of moving slow in my Canva account, you know, right? If I am. And this, I do think, is where copywriters, again, have that advantage, because you kind of have a sense of what, oh, that’s working. Well, let’s test this. You kind of have that inner sense and knowing of like, you know, or maybe I want to insert a little more sales psychology into this copy piece, like you don’t have to spend a lot of time there. If on my larger account, or any larger account, I’m, well, let’s just go my larger account, you know, I would say I’m updating creative once a quarter, and it’s not much more honestly than what I just described. Now, when I first got my account to a really great, optimal place, it did take me a little bit more time up front. You know, the first few months I was testing and seeing, like, where’s the right market message fit and what are people really, really glomming on to one of the coolest things I did, and this honestly made all the difference in my copy and my creative ever since was I went through, we have just under 1000 testimonials. I don’t think I had that many at the time, maybe like 100 like testimonial type things. And I went in there, and I saw two things over and over again. So I saw people kept saying effective. I’ve never used that in my marketing. They kept saying effective ads. And they kept saying, you know, I just, I always had such a headache doing ads or these are like, headache free. And I was like, those are two weird things, but I saw enough that I picked up on those signals and I put that in my messaging. I had a great mentor once who said, try not to write anything that your clients didn’t say first, right? And, man, that made all the difference so and that just would never be how I would describe my program to somebody, you know, but we help you create fast, effective ads like that is the key to our whole business, and it came from my clients, directly from their mouths.  Rob Marsh: Yeah, that’s a copywriting trick right there that’s so good, really well known. So while we’re talking about testing and different creatives. What is the kind of stuff that we should be testing? And I’m asking this because I know that some people say you should be only testing big Ideas. And then there are a lot of people who get hung up and testing things like a call to action that says, Call click now versus click today, versus click for more and tests that probably don’t actually tell you a whole lot. So how do you think through testing? Do we need to be testing graphics? Do we need to be testing headlines? Any of that?  Tara Zirker: Yes. Okay, so when we teach creative testing, we always start with copy, actually. So on test, honestly, we want to you can test lots of frameworks, but we also want to test lengths, short, medium long copy and extra long copy right now is trending on meta. There is a theory that meta is indexing based on copy and so, and this gets into a whole different conversation, but think of it like how we used to write blog posts, or how we still write blog post, very SEO rich. So that’s another trick, or another thing that you can be testing. Then we want to test our imagery. Always. Five to 10 images is what we recommend right now, videos and or GIFs. So you can include a mix there. And then we want to be testing headlines. And so the way that we teach testing right now, we have a really cool way of testing that kind of puts it all together and lets the algorithm decide. You can also test them one at a time, and this is the old school way that we used to teach, which I still love, but is a little bit more of a manual effort. So you can let the algorithm kind of do the testing for you, or you can do it yourself. But the most important piece is that you want to test that mix that I just described, and then idea versus idea versus like smaller tweaks.  So I would say initially, I would just stick to one framework, and then you can test different copy, you know, frameworks, against each other if you want. So one framework and three different lengths, or four different lengths, if you want to go the want to go the extra long way version, and then from there, yes, with maybe you see like, like, we have, for example, one client who just honestly, it’s the same copy that has converted for years for them, and we will test all sorts of things against it, but it’s that one copy that generates almost all of the results. And yes, what we do now is micro testing within that. And so we’ll change up the call to action. We’ll change up the emojis. By the way, I call that styling, and there’s lots of styling, little tips and tricks, but like the green check mark is one of the best emojis that always test incredibly well on meta. So take that and run with it. But there’s just all these little different things you can test, kind of within your winners. So it’s almost like you want to get some big winners, and then from there you can start drilling down, if you want to, optional but optimal, you can start drilling down into the little stuff. Rob Marsh: Let me ask about targeting. So I know if I’ve done a big launch in the past, and I’ve got, you know, several hundred buyers, I can easily upload those and create a lookalike audience. But for a lot of service providers who are maybe working with three or four clients a month, which nets out at maybe 20 a year, you almost have to have five years worth of those clients to create a look alike audience. So how do I as a small business create an audience of ideal prospects to be targeting?  Tara Zirker: I’m going to tell you the version of my answer that’s relevant right now, and the version that I believe will be relevant in 12 months from now. So right now you can target based on interests, so small business owner as a behavior, let’s say, could be a great one. Maybe you’re targeting parents. You can target all these different parents. Why would you be targeting parents? Rob Marsh: I suppose there might be a copywriter you know, targeting parent writing type niches or whatever.  Tara Zirker: You’re targeting businesses. However, if you’re writing for clients and I will say, I think that if you are writing for clients, having at least some basic skill level on ads can be helpful. So you can, you can write specific copy for specific interests and things like that. But basically, small business owner is a behavior. You can target Facebook page admins as an example, so that you wouldn’t have be an admin on a Facebook page unless you have a business or you’re a thought leader of some kind, right? So there’s lots of ways to do targeting that would like specifically call out to your ideal client within the targeting the answer I will give you a year from now, and I I’m anticipating this is where it’s going, is there’s no targeting period, and the algorithm just knows, and your creative will actually be the qualifier and Tell meta where to place those ads. And so we see, and just to give a little more context there, we see that the way the campaign structure is, you know, for many accounts, it still is this way. But for other accounts, they’re noticing top of funnel, middle of funnel, bottom of funnel. Those are kind of traditional how you would think about ads, those are applying less and less. It’s just becoming one big funnel, and the algorithm is going and finding your right person.  A great example of this Rob is ourselves. I mean, we’re targeting a small business owner spending under 5000 a month in ads, and who wants to really learn how to do it, do it well, and not hire it out yet. Okay? Maybe at some point they will. Maybe they never do. We’ve noticed that our best targeting right now, or some of our best targeting, is broad targeting. I’ll put the ages in, and I’ll put the country that I’m targeting, and that’s it. No interest, no look alikes, no nothing. And Meta is just going out and finding Ito clients for me based on what it knows about me and what it knows I want. So how crazy is that, but that’s where it’s all going. Rob Marsh: That’s really cool. Do you have to have a history in your meta account for that to work that way? Tara Zirker: We’ve seen accounts brand new. Start off with broad target and targeting and do really, really well as long as you’re creative. You always do want to have, like you always want to have the geography in there, otherwise, you’re going to get lots of cheap but very random results from all over the world. And that’s not what you want, right? You want qualified leads and customers and things like that. So you always want to put your geography, I will say there could be a use case for age, although it honestly doesn’t matter so much, because meta will figure that out. And if you’re writing for clients, you may want to think about gender, but again, doesn’t matter so much, because Meta will figure it out. They’ll know which ads are more attractive to men versus women. You know, male versus female, that whole thing. So all that targeting is probably going to go away at some point, but for now, it exists. You can use it. It’s not totally necessary.  Rob Marsh: Interesting. What else should I be asking that I just don’t even have the background, you know, talking about, how do service providers step into this role and become advertisers?  Tara Zirker: Yeah, well, I think that, you know, there is, there seems to be the type of person, a type of person that does really, really well with ads. And it’s not surprising to me that so many fantastic, what we would call media buyers or agency owners who go into ADS. They come from a copy background. I can’t tell you how many of my colleagues, you know, they just wanted to add on a skill set, or they saw an opportunity, or they just really were attracted to advertising. They’re like, I have this great skill set and copy, and I think I could apply it really well to this, and they usually do great. So there’s a real natural fit. And I think that, like when I think through our members inside of our successful ads accelerator, some of the best ones, honestly, are have copywriting backgrounds. They just get it. They kind of understand what needs to happen at that copy level to create a conversion.  On the back end. They understand sales psychology. They understand the flow. And so there’s a real, natural fit. So whether you wanted to do it for yourself, which I think is great, to keep that expense small in house, learn the skill set. It’s a skill set that will follow you the rest of your life, from business to business, whatever you do. It’s an amazing skill set. Or maybe you do want to get into writing copy. For ads clients. I mean, that’s a very lucrative niche, niche, or maybe you want to actually build the skill set and run ads yourself or experiment with it. I think there’s lots of approaches, but I do think that copywriters have a real natural fit. The things that I would be aware of that are shifting trends and stuff is like, how do you bring AI into that?  Rob Marsh: That was gonna be my next question is, how are you using AI? It for, I mean, obviously meta has got it running in the background, helping to find the right prospects and all of that. How are you using AI in the foreground, you know, in the planning, the strategizing and the writing of the ads?  Tara Zirker: Yes. I mean, we’re using it heavily, and we still depend on our copywriters. I will say, you know, my, my big opinion is, and I think for all professions that are being touched by AI and it is massively disrupting, right? Is like, I don’t think any of these professions are going away, but they are definitely shedding their skin and what I what I’m seeing is the AI can replace the average almost across the board, and it will enhance the exceptional. And so I think that you that, no matter, you know, if you all marketers are being, you know, very, very like, impacted by AI. And I think that’s where we just have to take our skill set to exceptional. You know, you can’t be good. You have to be great. If you’re great, you need to be excellent. And that is, I think, where the opportunity lies.  In preparing for this interview, I asked AI its opinion on like, specifically for like, ad copywriters. And I was just, you know, we went through a whole conversation that was really good. But here, and I said, be brutally honest. And it said, Okay, here’s the brutally honest future state snapshot for AI and copywriting, ads and copywriting, excuse me, and I thought this was so good. It says number one, AI is going to write more first drafts. I think that’s across the board, probably already seeing that. Yeah, 100% smart copywriters will edit for tone, angle and conversion. Number two, and this, for me, is where all, all marketing is going. Um, anything that’s impacted by AI, this is 100% where I see my clients wanting, if I’m thinking of like, ad clients, for example, this is where they’re at, and this is where we’ve been moving for a long time. So you know, kind of works out well, but clients want outcomes and not assets. So copywriters will be hired to optimize funnels or drive ROAs, not just write a sales page or write ad copy. And I think right there is all of the value in what’s going to happen and be disrupted over the next five years, like even, you know, even my clients that are heavily using AI themselves. They want that human, not necessarily analysis, because AI can do the analysis, but they want the like, what are your insights? What are you seeing in other clients? Like that is where all the value is. Number three, it said multi disciplinary thinkers will rise. The copywriter who understands ads plus Email Plus audience journey will be 10x more valuable. When I saw that, I was like, Oh, my goodness, yes, yes, yes. Like, from an agency perspective, that’s it. If you can understand the entire customer journey and how copy, not as an asset, but as an outcome, is going to impact every place. And if you can look at an analysis, or conduct an analysis with AI and say, This is where you know, this is this is where the market is really interested in our message, this is where we’re losing. This is where we’re losing that we’re losing engagement, right? Like that, right? There is huge. And I think that is the value, at least from my agency’s perspective, my training perspective, that is where the value is at. Rob Marsh: I couldn’t agree more. I actually teach a college course on customer journeys and helping you know students see how journeys come together and the various platforms that you know and how they all fit together. And the more I teach that course, the more it strikes me that that is a superpower for marketers, if you can understand even lead scoring and attribution and how it all fits together. It makes a massive, massive difference.  Tara Zirker: I agree. I think if you skill up or re skill in just any one of those, like what you just said, you know, analytics or attribution or understanding customer journey. I mean, that is where 100% I think that’s where all of the future lies, and not just for copywriters, but everybody in marketing. I saw a great study by Procter and Gamble, and they did this study kind of establishing what a baseline output is for the average person, like in just like the average worker, yeah, and so and marketing is, for sure, the most. I think it was marketing and sales is going to be the first wave of massive disruption all other industries will follow with AI, except probably some offline, you know, specific, like manual labor industries. But it was very interesting. It showed kind of the baseline is what the baseline always has been. It’s just the average output. And then they showed an entire team and their average output. And here’s what’s crazy. Rob, a person, one person, AI, enhanced employee outperforms an entire team. Oh, wow. So we got to wrap our minds around that. That is, if we want to understand, how do we provide value in this next wave of innovation, which is AI that right there is what we’ve got to wrap our minds around. And how do we become AI enhanced, and what are the skills that companies will be wanting and hiring for? I think you described it so beautifully. It’s that, it’s that attribution. It’s that, you know, being able to, like, score a lead. It’s being able to look at a funnel and say, this is where we’re dropping off. Here’s our tools, and copy is definitely one of the biggest tools to fix it.  Rob Marsh: Yeah, I agree. We’re running out of time, but I definitely want to ask a question about, you know, formulas or hooks, or if you had to set up a new account, and it absolutely had to succeed, you know, if, if it doesn’t work, Tara is banished from Facebook ads or whatever, is there a hook or a formula that you would lead off with that you would try first, because, you know, it tends to perform pretty well, or it’s a good starting point to start to build off of? Tara Zirker: Yeah, anything that is around problem awareness is where I would go. So, and I know I’m like, rusty on all my formulas, but like, problem or pain, the interrupts. So maybe it’s not this, but it’s this, right? And then, like, the invitation, the CTA, that’s where, if I’m like, Oh, if I’m really betting on success and I really need this to to do, well, that’s where I would go. So you know, if I’m thinking about my customer, for example, sometimes they’re not even aware that traffic might be their issue. They just know they’re not getting enough sales. But it’s like, is it the offer, or is it the traffic? And so anything that I can do to bring awareness to that problem, like maybe their conversion rate is fine, or obviously, everybody always wants their conversion rate to improve. But the bigger problem is they’re not getting enough eyeballs, and they don’t even understand, like, if one to 3% of your audience converts, well, then I need more audience. And so anything I can do to bring awareness to that issue is really, really helpful. So that’s kind of a little case study there. How I would think through that.  Rob Marsh: That makes a lot of sense. Again, thinking about copywriters and content writers who may be working with, you know, three to six clients a month, you really don’t need to close that many clients. You know, if you can, if you’re pretty good, you know, you’re closing, say, one out of three or one out of two calls. You don’t need that many leads. And that’s where it seems to me, what you’re talking about, even the $10 a day type ads that drives, you know, if, again, if you were to get 20 leads into your business a month, and you close a third of them, your your business is just fine, and you’re probably making 10k or more a month. Tara Zirker:  100% I think for any business owner it’s valuable to understand that, but what you just shared is gold, because so many people don’t realize what it takes to actually create a conversion. If it only takes three or four calls, well, then I know, and I only need two or three clients, those numbers just got a lot easier. Yeah, exactly.  Rob Marsh: Okay. This has been eye opening for me in a lot of ways. I’ve followed you on your list for a long time. I know you do. You know regular trainings, and you’ve got this accelerator. Tell us a little bit about the accelerator, and of course, I’m going to link to it, thecopywriterclub.com/tara, if anybody wants to check it out. But tell us just a little bit about what you guys do in the accelerator?  Tara Zirker: Yeah, absolutely. So we take clients and we show them how to run ads within a couple of hours, we’re gonna have your ad set up. So big nutshell version is, if you want to run ads, we have six fast and easy levels. They’re 20 to 40 minutes a piece. The unique thing is, everything we do includes one on one coaching, so every time you finish one of those levels, we’re gonna have one of our coaches hop on a call with you and actually audit your work, make sure that everything is set up for your success before you ever spend $1 so your tech is in place, your design is great, you know, like your offer is really top notch, so it is a full like one on one, done with you. Program really affordable, really well priced. And you know this, I would say, is for someone who’s spending less than $5,000 you’re not quite ready to outsource. It will help you do that when you’re ready, but you just want to get these ads set up and working quickly. Rob Marsh: Would this also work for somebody who wants to create ads for clients? Would this give a baseline for that person as well. Tara Zirker: 100% we don’t have a specific agency track, but I would say about 20% of our membership is agency owners who’ve gone through a program. Some of them have even hired team members and put them right through the program. And so you’re going to learn the nuts and bolts, what you need to do, set up a client account, and then you’ll have ongoing support. We have so many agency owners who just you’ll have after the program. We have, like, a membership portion on the back end. So every month you get a call, so you’re not in a group call. We do have those. You’re getting an actual call to make sure, like, you know what? Let’s try tweaking this. Or here’s something we’re seeing work on accounts. You could try this on your client account or so. It’s really cool. Very hands on.  Rob Marsh: And Tara, if somebody’s not quite ready for that, they just want to be on your list. Can they also get on your list there at that same link, or do we need to give them a different link?  Tara Zirker: You know, if you go to youradkit.com that will get you the anatomy of a perfect ad, and it just kind of walks through what an ad needs to be really successful. And that will get you on our email list. Rob Marsh: Perfect. I’ll link to both of those in the show notes. I really appreciate you taking the time to walk me through all of this, especially from the service provider standpoint. You know, we see Facebook ads for products so often, and it’s nice to take a look at it from this other direction, where it may benefit so many more of us than currently use Facebook ads, and I used Instagram ads WhatsApp, but so thank you for all of that. I really appreciate it.  Tara Zirker: Thanks for having me. Great to be with you.  Rob Marsh:  Thanks to Tara for the masterclass on Facebook ads and the analytics that actually matter, what to watch and look out for. If you found Tara’s insights valuable, make sure you get on her list… I shared a URL during our interview that will take you to The Successful Ads Accelerator: If you want to add Facebook ads to your skill set, and a lot of copywriters would benefit from knowing how to use ads on Facebook and Instagram… you can find out more about Tara’s program at thecopywriterclub.com/tara  You could join Tara’s program and be running an ad for your service in less than two hours. Be sure to check that out at thecopywriterclub.com/tara I’ve got to admit, I find myself wanting to use Facebook ads but worry that the algorythm changes faster than I can keep up and I’m a bit worried about messing up my ads account. We’ve used ads in the past and had varying success with them. We’ve filled our programs using ads, but also had the opposite experience and spent more than we could justify, so this kind of discussion is incredibly helpful to me and I hope helpful to you too. If you’re interested in diving into this a bit deeper, we’ve got a training in The Copywriter Underground called “Engineering Successful Facebook Launches” that will walk you through using Facebook and Instagram ads to launch a product or service. If you’re a member, it’s in the new dashboard. And if you’re not a member, you can fix that now at thecopywriterclub.com/tcu.

In a world where A.I. can write all of the words for free, what is a copywriter to do? What tools should they adopt and how should they approach artificial intelligence? I invited Petter Magnusson, the creator of PurposeWrite, to join me on The Copywriter Club Podcast to discuss these questions and talk through how copywriters can use tools like his to serve our clients better. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.   Stuff to check out: Petter on LinkedIn PurposeWrite (sign up for a free trial) The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Full Transcript: Rob Marsh: It’s been three years since ChatGPT launched and changed the world. So what does A.I. mean for copywriting today? This is The Copywriter Club Podcast. When OpenA.I. released the first version of ChatGPT to the public, what had been a quiet conversation about artificial intelligence happening mostly behind the scenes suddenly burst into our collective consciousness. Writers and creators in particular were suddenly aware that at least at some level, these large language models could do some of the work we were being hired to do. Many of us dove into these tools to see what they could do. We launched a short-lived podcast that talked about how A.I. was impacting so many different ways of working, certainly within marketing, but also in many other industries. You can find the 20+ episodes of that podcast on The Copywriter Club website. Since that time, the dust has settled a bit. The A.I. tools have gotten a bit better. Image creation tools are significantly better. Writing tools have also improved, but it remains true today that the best copywriters seem to be able to use them to get the best outputs… if you want good copy, copy that captures attention and converts readers into buyers, it helps a lot to have a copywriter guide the inputs and rework the outputs you get from the A.I. model of your choice. Another thing we’ve seen in over the past couple of years is that while tools like ChatGPT and Claude get most of the headlines, lots of other tools have added components of artificial intelligence to improve their products, speed up useage, and make applications more sticky. At the same time we’ve seen the launch of job-specific A.I. tools that do one thing… like writing emails, or writing articles at speeds humans simply can’t match. So when it comes to A.I., where are we headed next? What tools will we be using to get better results? And how helpful is it to have a user or prompt engineer or copywriter who really knows what they’re doing versus just playing around to see what they can get a model to do? I asked Petter Magnusson, the developer of PurposeWrite to talk a bit about A.I., the tool he’s built, and also the broader environment of artificial intelligence and where he sees us going from here. And because whatever happens with A.I. will have a big impact on copywriters, this is a topic I may come back to in the coming weeks. This whole industry is fascinating. The speed of change is a bit scary.  During our conversation, I had a realization. In the past copywriters charged for the things we delivered… the words. Officially we sold blog posts or sales pages or emails or some other copy, but it was the words that clients expected to get. But now that ChatGPT can produce the words pretty much for free, we need to move up the value chain and sell the process, the strategy, the analysis, and the ideas. And bringing that to the A.I. model you use will make the outputs there so much better. Any way… I think this is a discussion you’ll enjoy. Before we get to my interview with Petter, this episode is brought to you by The Copywriter Underground. Unless you are hitting the 30 second skip button when you get to this point of the show, you are no doubt familiar with The Copywriter Underground. I talk about it every week. The Underground includes more than 70 different workshops—and accompanying playbooks to help you gain the skills and strategies you need to build your business. The Playbooks make it easy to find quick solutions to the challenges you face in your business everything from finding clients, conducting sales calls, using A.I., building authority on LinkedIn or YouTube or Pinterest, and dozens of other workshops. You also get dozens of templates including a legal agreement you can use with your clients, monthly coaching, regular copy and funnel critiques, and more. You can learn more by visiting thecopywriterclub.com/tcu. And now, my interview with Petter Magnusson… Petter, welcome to the podcast. I am really interested in your journey. How did you go from, i think, photographer, content creator, and now you founded an AI company all about writing How did you get here? Petter Magnusson: First of all, thanks for having me. I’ve been like, to be honest, I have discovered your pod fairly recently, but I have listened in and I really like what you do. So I’m going to be stuck in here for a long time listening. Rob Marsh: Thank you. Petter Magnusson: There’s a bunch of episodes. So yeah, it’s so much, so many I want to listen to. So I’m surely going to do that. Yeah, so I have a bit of a weird mixed history. So I started as a, I don’t know if you youll probably You will edit this, you I guess. Rob Marsh: Of course, well if yeah we can always cut it down or or sometimes we just like to hear the story. Petter Magnusson: My background is a bit long story, I started out as ah as a programmer, actually, a long time ago. And then I started studying physics and I studied physics engineering. Then I went to Japan for for my work in advanced laser physics kind of thing. And then I stumbled into sales for that laser company doing sales. And that led me into marketing where I became marketing manager for an IT company in Sweden. And we did extremely well. We happened to sell modems at the time that internet exploded. My boss still thinks that I had magic hands or something because he became super rich from that. And and he still thinks I was had a part of it. So anyway, so I did that. And then I started getting really interested in photography. And… I was having reached some of my life goals, to be honest, at the early 30s. I thought, ah, I want to change direction. So then I just bailed out. I applied for art school in Norway and I got in i as I took a bachelor in in art ah photography. And then I went to to do master’s degree also in Sweden in yeah photo and film. So then I was like a ah photo artist actually exhibiting in galleries and stuff like that. Classic art, you know, career. Until I got a little bit angry with that world in a way, because it’s not as it’s not as free as you may think. You know, I used to think that art is free. But in the art world, to survive, you have to be fairly political. You have to know certain people, you have to network, and you need to make pieces about the right topics if you want to get the scholarships and the exhibitions. And, you know, that might be all fine, but then I saw how people are were adapting to that, and that like goes against everything that art is for me. So that kind of got me, yeah. Rob Marsh: Yeah. Petter Magnusson: And then I thought, well, I might as well go commercial. so so So I did that. as so I went into commercial photography and and filmmaking. And now I have a small production company in Stockholm, and we’re doing corporate stuff mostly. So a lot of B2B topics. And that’s when I started to see what what kind of led into PurposeWrite. I have a lot of I see exactly the same. I saw the same happening in visual content as in copywriting, I think. People come to me and they were like, hey, video is hyped. We want to make a film or or something. And I’m like, OK, great. Why do you want to make a film? And they’re like, it’s hip or something. And I’m like, OK, who’s going to see this film? I don’t know. Everyone. and i’m like okay you know So I had to start you know the journey with them to like, okay, let’s find out if if you actually should make a film and who should watch it. What is your target audience and you know pain points and and interests and stuff like that. So that was kind of a struggle sometimes to make people understand that, yeah, of course I can just make a film for you, but that will make not make you happy or or the viewers or anyone. so And then we started… producing some text content too, and and especially for ourselves. And I think the trigger point came because I was trying to hire a guy that was not very good at writing, to be honest. Oh, maybe you should edit this out in case he listens to this. But anyway, ah yeah, I came across that that was going to do some some writing for us. And then I saw the same pattern in text. And I think that’s what triggered me. like Because he would produce content pieces that had no direction, no purpose, no, you know, not thinking about who’s going to read this and why are writing it? And and why are they going to read this? Everything like that. And that got me started that, okay, this is this is exactly the same problem. But and And then at that at that time, AI came along, you know, ChatGPT and everything. So I started playing with that and put that tool ah to work by kind of turning the process around. Because when you normally when you use ChatGPT, you write a prompt um and that will do something for you. And I could see the same problem there. Like, you know, generic content just exploding on LinkedIn and platforms like that. um I’m mainly talking content now because that’s the the area that I’m familiar with. But people are are mindlessly prompting stuff and they get something that looks pretty good. I mean, AI writes pretty good. Layout is nice with nice headlines and stuff. So yeah, on the surface, all is always fine, but it’s really horrible. It’s got no no value, you know. Rob Marsh: Yeah, it lacks so much, just from an emotional connection standpoint. Petter Magnusson: Yeah, exactly that. And there’s so many problems with it, you know like the emotional standpoint, the story, the style, and again, having a purpose with it, like who are you writing for, everything like that. And the thing is, i discovered that um you can actually i have AI make pretty good text. But again, hip yeah and this leads me back. Now I’m i’m like floating around in my my thinking bit. But lead this leads me back to the visual area because I saw the same exactly thing happening there because I’m coming from visual side of things. And I saw the same thing happening there first before I came to the tech side, like imaging, you know, AI imaging. First you saw it and you thought, wow, this is so cool. It looks amazing. and and and then I’m trying to use it for professional purposes. And then I see, oh, it’s not so easy to direct this thing. i can make something cool. But when I do have a brief and I do have a brand and then an image and a style and a mood board, and it’s extremely hard to make it do what i want because I have a vision for what I want. Yeah, a vision for the result. And that’s when it’s like tricky and I started realizing that, huh, all right, yeah, you need to actually feed this pretty much information to get what you want out of it. It is possible, though. you know If you give give enough information, you you can get pretty good results. And that’s what I discovered with text, too, that if you have a copywriter mindset, So, you know, sort i mean, first of all, you need to know what kind of information you should put in your prompt. If you ask it to just like generate a LinkedIn article about, like in my case, then selecting a corporate photographer, which could be a topic on our blog, you know, like one of those value bringing articles that are not selling us as a company, but like seemingly neutral guide kind of thing. then that will be totally generic, not helping the customer and not helping us in any way. But yeah, if you start putting in like the good stuff, like who are we writing for, what is actually important to think about, but then you are in a situation where you’re almost writing it yourself. So then the question is, what’s the what’s the purpose here? Yeah, gosh, I’m yeah gosh Rob Marsh: So how did you go from how did you go from there to wanting to build your own tool ah that’s going to do this? Because, i mean, it’s one thing for a copywriter say, okay, I’m going to you know do the back and forth with Claude or ChatGPT, and I’m going to tweak it or maybe even set up a custom GPT at this point in order to feed it some some ah preliminary data so that it’s giving me you know a particular voice or whatever. But Going from from that to, well, i’m going to actually build a different tool that’s going to do all of this stuff in a different way. That’s a whole other jump. Petter Magnusson: Exactly, yeah. And I started out exactly like what you say now. I started you know building larger prompts, longer prompts, more complicated, and then into custom GPTs. But then I started running into problems because when when the prompts got longer, like when I started getting to the really good ones, you know when I actually specify the tone and the target audience in detail and and everything like that, I started having problems with the AI cannot, can then and not any longer keep track of what it’s supposed to do. It’s losing stuff when the prompt gets too long. It’s hard to, it doesn’t know where to focus kind of. come And that’s when I started thinking, wow, I would actually need, and then I know that a lot of people make then than several custom GPTs, like one for this, one to find the target audience and one to do this and that. And then I thought, huh, I started doing the same. And then I thought, what if I would have a tool that can tie these things together so I can actually do these things together? Step by step. And that is kind of countering the limitations of the of the prompting. so And then I came up with the idea of making it like a traditional, since I’m coming from a programming in background, I started thinking, A traditional program would actually be pretty good here. you know Step by step, first do this, then ask the user about this information, then go to the LLM and ask that to provide something back. So that’s how it started. So I started making a simple scripting language that can call ChatGPT and Claude. And that is actually all that PurposeWrite is in in a way. It’s a scripting language. And it’s um yeah it’s actually even open. So users can also make their own custom scripts if they want. So it’s kind of custom GPT on steroids, I say. um And the thing is, what happens there is that then you can kind of decide. Now getting, I don’t know how nerdy you want to get here. Rob Marsh: Well, I’m curious, you know, obviously there are um a hundred writing tools out there now for, you know, mean, so even stepping beyond ChatGPT, which we’ll write, or Claude, which we’ll write, or LeChat, or HuggingFace, or Grok, or, you know, they’ll all do sort of the same thing. Petter Magnusson: Yes. Rob Marsh: But your tool, you’ve dialed it in for some, well, I mean, for It’s purposes and it’s even called purpose, right? So I’m not trying to be clever by saying that, but but um what have you done in your tool to make sure that what’s coming out of it is actually meeting the needs of the user? Petter Magnusson: Right. Yeah. so and And that’s when we get a little bit nerdy now, because what what I do is to to not confuse the AI, is that I call the AI, the aid LLM, ChatGPT or Claude in this case, actually, which is what I’m calling. I call them in in small chunks. And I can decide, yeah okay I’m going to do this techie part. I don’t know if you you can edit this out if you don’t want it. But anyway, there’s something called context window. So every time you write a new prompt, you will also send along everything, the and the whole old conversation. And sometimes it even warns you, like, hey should you really continue this conversation? Because it’s starting to get very expensive. Because you even if you write short prompts, it’s going to send ah away all the conversation with it. And that can sometimes confuse it. So in this scripting language, you can choose if you want to send along the context or not. So you can make little simple questions. So that ah so this is not really about how writing writing style or anything, but it’s just making it easier for the AI to solve a certain task. So I could like i could scrape a web page, which is why i do it in and one of these guides, or mini apps inside of PurposeWrite, we call guides. And one is called ArticleWriter. And then you give it a yeah URL. It will scrape that page. And then you can say, please find suitable target audiences. Who do you think I’m trying to talk to on this website? And then it can give you suggestions. And then I will only do that. So that is a small, simple task. And then I can be pretty explicit about that task and give it a pretty pretty advanced prompt for that task because it’s only one task. If I would mix that into a longer prompt that would do 10 things, it would be too much information. So that is one way that you can like kind of give it a one simple task, do this, and then will perform much better. And the other thing is that so I’m doing that in steps. So first, um if you look at ArticleWriter, you can, of course, yourself say, if you know your target audience, you just write it in in there. Or you can say, please help me analyze what what do you think is the target audience. And then it will look at the target audience. and Compare that to the, I mean, i’m I’m talking mostly LinkedIn content here. So you are probably trying to sell a service or a product. Rob Marsh: Well, I mean, copywriters do everything, right? So it can be everything from you know content for LinkedIn, whether that’s for our own businesses or whether we’re helping a client write that kind of an article. But obviously LinkedIn will have a character limit ah where maybe a blog post might be able to go longer or a sales page, which could go on for say 18 or 19 pages, right? Where you know it could it can get very extensive depending on what the product is. So obviously there’s lots of different contexts as to the kind of copy that we’re writing or to the audience that we’re writing to. um And your tool, as I understand it, is is maybe better for some of those shorter length ones, but does would it also help write a sales page it it you know considerable length? Petter Magnusson: Yeah, it it can do longer ah stuff, ah absolutely. um The thing is, I have chosen to focus on one area, and this is purely actually a marketing decision because Being a scripting language, I could actually make those scripts do anything. you know like I could probably make a script that helps write a chapter in a book or something. Maybe not the whole book, but at least. you know so but um I have decided that my target audience is people trying to build a personal brand or a company brand on LinkedIn with content. So just to you know narrow it down, make it easier to place this product But there’s nothing stopping it to do other things. And that’s why I talk about content so much. And this is because this is the target we have now. Rob Marsh: Yeah that is and and So this is this is interesting. Obviously, a lot of a lot of copywriters are on LinkedIn, are using the tool to you know create interest ah in their services and their thinking. One of the criticisms I hear about ah LinkedIn is that it is full content. AI generated content and that it’s not reflective of true thought leadership. You know, people aren’t actually writing what they’re putting up under their own names. i I’m sure that this is happening with copywriters too, although that boggles my mind that that writers don’t actually write, but you know, um maybe it’s happening. I hope that most of this content that I see, you know, on LinkedIn is actually real, but how does your tool help um pull out actual thought leadership, actual real writing and not not become the writer itself. Petter Magnusson: Yeah, that is a fine line, actually. And I’m trying to avoid because I could, of course, make a guide that says, so press button, get content. Rob Marsh: Exactly. Especially if you can if you can just read another website or another post whatever, rewrite it in this voice. AI can do that all day long. Petter Magnusson: Yeah, exactly. So I mean, I could do that, but I hate that stuff myself. So I’m um trying to to to not do that. And these guides that I do, and I think that that is actually potentially even a weakness of the tool. I’ve heard from some people that, you know, What I’m doing is I’m asking you to provide for a lot of information to write something. you know Okay, you can I can look at the webpage to find the target audience and the pain points and stuff and background information about the product or services or something, but you still have to choose. you know what pain points you want to address here out of suggestions that you can add yourself. And then it will also, after that, it will come back with areas that it thinks you should provide additional information. So it’s it will not base the whole piece on just that background information. It will say, okay, I found these 10 areas that um you could potentially say something about And then you can write that. in Of course, you can be lazy and say, na not going to do that. But if you take your time and do that, the piece is going to be so much better. And that, as I said, that is in the same with style and voice and stuff like that. You can specify so much. And that is also, like i was saying, part of the weakness, perhaps, because I’m looking at spying out how people are using the tool. And I see that quite a lot of people are actually bailing out in the process. So that’s something I need to to address, I think. and But I’m not sure if I should go all the way there either to you know meet those requirements, because I think a lot of those people come with the expectation that, oh, it’s a content tool. It’s one of those, we scraped a thousand LinkedIn posts, and now you just put in your company name and press this button, and you have copies of that content. And if you expect that, and then you you get a million questions about ah tone of voice and and target audience and stuff like that, it’s not what you expect. But that is also what makes it different in the end. So I think it’s a matter of finding our target audience. and know who is Who is this for? and and Yeah. Yeah. Rob Marsh: I think one of the things that I’ve struggled with with AI is you know that lack of humanness. And the fact that when people find out something is AI, you know if we were having a chat, you and I were having a chat, and i found out that you were a bot AI, suddenly, the value of what we’re talking about is reduced immensely. In fact, I might even feel cheated that I got the Petterbot instead of the the actual thing. right and so I think one of the challenges that creators like you who are who are coming up with these tools is how do we preserve humanness if we’re using tools that are very unhuman or inhuman ah in in the creation. And you know the there’s a whole spectrum of criticisms that happen here, you know where, hey, if i can if I can take an artistic style and an AI can create an image in that style and I no longer need the artists to do that anymore, What’s the value of style anymore? right or and And the same thing applies obviously with writing with copy. And so these are some really big questions around AI that I know people are so are asking them. Clearly they’re being asked, ah but I don’t know that there’s a lot of discussion or a lot of people that are really thinking through like, okay, this is actually something important we ought to be preserving. Petter Magnusson: it it is yeah It is super important. And and yeah, up ah it it brings ah another thought to to my mind there that I think there will always be a reaction to things like this. you know People are starting to be really, really good at spotting the AI-generated content. And and you’re just like you scroll past it because as soon as you feel you that this is AI. So that is problem. But I think there will always be a reaction. I’m seeing already now a reaction to this. you know I am connected. I’m hanging around talking a lot about LinkedIn, but that’s my hangout. you know I’m spending a lot of time on LinkedIn. And I’m connected with a bunch of of professional copywriters of of different types. And I can see the reaction happening. A lot of people are are starting to write in a consciously anti-AI way. which actually is a bit dirty, sloppy, or even, or something like that, you know, because AI is writing so good in a way, you know? Rob Marsh: Formally is, yeah. Petter Magnusson: Yeah, yeah, it’s it’s nice sentence lengths and and no… grammar problems and and spell errors spelling errors, you know all of that. And that’s where where I see a lot of my copywriter friends are are going ballistic with trying to prove that they’re human. So that’s ah that’s an interesting trend that I kind of like that. Rob Marsh: Yeah, from somebody who who is a bit of a stickler for for grammar, it’s really painful to see it. But on the flip side, again, we as humans value humanness. And and ah now i’ am I’m not anti-AI at all. I use AI ah every day in my business. And I think it’s an immensely helpful tool. But these are some of the things that i I’ve been thinking about too is, okay, When I write an email to my list and and I’ve yet to use AI to write an email, one exception when I was saying, hey, look what yeah what AI can do in an email couple of years ago. But should I be putting a tag at the bottom? you know It’s like, hey, this is written only by me. I did not use AI, right? So that people see that. Or, you know, like there maybe there’s an opportunity yeah at some point for somebody develop, you know, a validator where it’s like, hey, yeah, this 100% human written or, you know, this is AI assisted. Or I know i know there are ah tools, you know, GPT zero and those kinds of things that try to establish that, but they’re they’re not great. They’re not great yet. Petter Magnusson: No, no it’s it’s super easy to trick them. And here i I do feel a little bit dubious about myself because I have i have a guide in PurposeWrite that is called Rewrite. And that is pretty good at mimicking a lot of these things. So it can trick these AI detection tools. And umm I’m sometimes wondering, like, should I really do this? Rob Marsh: No, these are good questions. And I mean, at some level, we know this stuff is going on and it’s going to happen. And we’ve we’ve got to embrace AI you know in order to do some things. But also, it would be helpful if, yeah I hate to think that the government needs to do this, but you know if the industry could self-regulate a little bit and just say, hey, um this is where the line really is. And you should really shouldn’t be you know getting too close to this line you know for some of this stuff. But yeah, again, who knows? that It moves so fast, right? Petter Magnusson: Yeah, it does. And and I think one another conclusion that could be reached is that it doesn’t really matter. you know as As long as the writing is good and I can get some value from it, does it matter if AI helped do it? Rob Marsh: Yeah, that’s that’s a great question too. And and how far you know does does that go? Obviously, like I said, I use AI in my writing for helping with headlines, for identifying benefits, and it speeds up the process for identifying needs and problems. there There’s so many good things that it can do. And so ah you know where you’re you’ve created this tool too that also writes really well or can help. If I’m writing an article or whatever and I get stuck, I’m not sure where to go or if I need ideas. Like it’s super helpful at at prompting those kinds of things. And so the right mix of machine and brain, human brain can actually elevate where we are if if it’s done right. Petter Magnusson: Exactly. Yeah, I think so. and And I have actually become less afraid of the creatives losing their job. I mean, yes, creatives are losing jobs at at this moment. And especially, you know, I’m in the photo video business. A lot of photographers are are probably going out of business because of this. But that has happened before. In that business, we’re more used to it than on the text side, actually. For text, this is very new, but it’s happened on the photo side. I can give you an example. When digital cameras came, You know, the small local newspapers, if they would, like, go to a farmer that had a funny carrot, they would bring a photographer specifically to take a picture of the carrot. And then digital cameras came, and then that photographer was out of the job because the the writing journalist could take that picture of the carrot. So we have seen this before. And, yeah, those low… Yeah, yeah. excuse the word, but low level work that goes and we’ve seen it happen. And that’s maybe what’s happening here too, that yeah, some of the low level work is gone and that we just have to live with that. Rob Marsh: And It happened with stock photography as well. I mean, i you know I was in the ad agency world when stock photos started coming online. And I remember specifically photographers we worked with that were you know worried about, you know they were they were losing a lot of the typical, we’ll take a photo of this typewriter. Or you know if it if it wasn’t original, if it wasn’t specific to an assignment, suddenly there were 1,000 images out there that we could choose from. And so you’re right. In some ways, there is a stock copy thing that is going on. It’s a little bit different from stock because it’s not always going to be the same. But ah you know AI creates that stock. And so the challenge becomes, how do we as humans or humans using a tool like Purpose Right ah create the stuff that’s original, new, different, and unique, and you know shows off that creativity, that humanness in some way that stock copy no longer does. Petter Magnusson: Exactly. And that’s where I’m not so afraid. I mean, if you’re operating on ah on a slightly higher level that you’re a bit more strategic and creative, I think you’re still needed. Because if if we go back to images again, it’s really easy to prompt a cool image. But what does that image say? What does it do? Same with the text. um You need to have a vision. First of all, for where you are going, even if you’re using AI, you need to know which direction you should prompt the AI. and And you need to be able to judge the result also. Something comes out. Is this good? Is this on brand? is it you know And so we we are needed, i think, still. So I’m not that worried. Not yet, at least. Rob Marsh: Yeah, I think what you’re saying is the opportunity is you know an analysis and strategy and figuring out direction. ah And as far as like the the actual operational tactics, we might need to figure that stuff out. But the exact wording or whatever, you know there may be a place for AI to step in and do, like you said, that ah lower level thinking that ah that can be easily replaced. Petter Magnusson: Yeah. Yeah. and And again, referring back to to the visual side of things, we have seen a shift also there that users want to do stuff themselves. And and I think, again, that’s something that we just have to adapt to um So what we’re doing, it you know we would normally go and film everything for the customers. Now we’re we’re having a new service where we can actually work with the customer to ah think about what is what what should be filmed, what should be said. Then they can actually film it with their iPhone and and send the files for us to editing. So our role becomes different. And the most important part there is the strategic part. Like what should we, why should we film? What should be said? What… And then who who holds that camera on? And if that camera is a professional camera, it’s not that important, to be honest. And I think it’s a bit the same with text. A lot of simple text, I think the customers can write themselves now. We just have to realize that we’re not going to do that. So they’re going to come to us for the more strategic and and creative stuff. And that’s where we can shine. And yeah and and also on a purely strategic level, help them point you know the stuff that they make themselves, we could probably help them with that. Take good a good hourly rate, two because that’s what we do. We um we have this um so like social media package. And then we spend quite a lot of time thinking, OK, you want to build your personal brand. Who are you as a copywriter then in this case? you know Who are you on LinkedIn? why Why are you different from the other copywriters? What persona are you going have? When you are on camera, are you going to wear a T-shirt to suit or what is you know ah to be on brand? And that, I think, is super valuable. And we need to realize that for for text too, that that is a job that needs to be done and that we can charge pretty high for um to analyze things and have a strategy. Rob Marsh: The irony here is from a copywriting standpoint, and this probably is true from a visual standpoint as well, is for the last 100 years or so, we’ve been selling the outcome and giving away the strategy for free in order to get the outcome. So if I sold a content strategy or a blog post or a sales page, that’s what I’m selling. But all of the thinking, the strategy that goes into it ah was happening ah you know kind of kind of for free you know on the back end. And what AI is forcing us to do saying, hey, the words are free, but the strategy, the figuring it out, the approach, the voice, and and putting your your mind power into that, that’s where the real value ah was all along and charging for that. And that’s definitely a shift in the way that we see see the creative business. Petter Magnusson: Yeah. Wow. that That’s… ah Exactly my thought, but you twisted it in and and a great way. And I agree totally with that. and And now I don’t want to be here promoting Purpose Right all along. But I have been thinking about exactly this problem. So I have made in Purpose Right, I have something called profit sharing. And that is because I’ve been thinking exactly in these lines that how do we handle the situation where the customers want to write some stuff themselves? They know I have ChatGPT, I can write. And and as a copywriter, they’re just going to call you when there’s something really important to to write. you know And the rest they’re going to make with ChatGPT and it becomes horrible. So… And that’s what I’m thinking that why don’t we, as copywriters, sell analysis? Like, again, who are you? Tonal voice brand, like a different brand for for different services, maybe even because we have a different target audience for different parts of what we’re trying to to communicate. Why don’t we sell that? And in in the case of PurposeRite, make custom guides for the customer.  So instead of the customer going off to ChatGPT and prompting really badly, we can say, I’ve done the analysis for you. And here are a few custom guides that you can use. you know I know you’re writing you’re writing ah this simple newsletter every Friday. You can actually do that. And I made a custom guide for you for that, which is on brand and and everything is prepared for you. And the cool thing then is that you will, as a copywriter, you get a kickback. So when you make a guide and share with someone and they use it, you get a kickback from that. So that’s kind of a way of… Yeah, I’m also thinking that staying on top of mind with the customer. So I have on purpose made a lot of the the guide have a lot of description lines. And I’m thinking that people can actually put a little tagline there, like, remember me, Rob, when you want to write the important stuff. Rob Marsh: Interesting. Yeah, that makes sense. so So that that kind of opens up a broader question. How do you see copywriters using AI in general moving into the future? ah yeah Obviously, it’s going to be doing a lot of writing or writing assisting, but how else can it help us improve the product that we’re we’re providing for our clients? Petter Magnusson: Yeah, I think that, but most of it we’re already doing. It’s just that it will be better at it. I think the one of the most important things is just analyzing text and massive text. That is so useful to just pour stuff in there and be able to talk to that massive data chunk. So that I think is a super important thing. Save a lot of money because that’s That’s not the fun part of the job either, is it? Rob Marsh: Yeah, analysis, I mean, yeah well, I mean, it can be fun, you know, when you stumble across those things that it’s like, oh, wait, I, you know, I just discovered something new, but I don’t see that being that different from ai helping me uncover something new, ah you know, and saving 10 or 12 hours of going through, you know, spreadsheets worth of data or whatever, and having it say, hey, have you thought of this? You know, the, I guess my question will always be, do I trust that the AI is uncovering the stuff that I would uncover, right? Like how do how do we make sure that that analysis bot is better or as good as Rob when he’s, you know, analyzing a spreadsheet? Now, I’m not necessarily saying I’m all that great at and analysis. And so it may ah it’s probably already better. But obviously, you know, in using a tool, you you have to trust the tool. Petter Magnusson: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, and I think There, of course, we are at the point where it is probably, as you say, probably better. as long As soon as you have a lot of data, at least. I mean, if you have a couple of pages, you’re probably better. But as soon as you start getting hundreds of pages or something like that, I don’t think it’s very unusual that a human can keep up with that. in any way. So I think that that’s an important one. And then I actually think it can help with creativity. And this might sound a bit weird, but I do think that it triggers a lot of thoughts. you know And I actually made a ah guide for that in Purpose. I called Idea Expander. And it’s not doing anything advanced at all. It’s just a very simple prompt, basically. You just give it a basic concept, and it will then twist it around and say, or you can think this way on this topic. And then you can take one of those and branch out from there. And that helps a lot, I think, with just coming up with ideas. So you can, like, I put in simple things, like, you know, It’s important to think of the target audience when you write content. And then it twists that around and comes up with something entirely different. And so that’s how I um have done some of the best content pieces, actually, using that kind of, you know, to to trigger my creativity. Yeah. yeah Rob Marsh: Yeah, that’s when I’m using AI, that’s basically one of the main purposes that I do too, is that I’m um asking the engine to you know ask me back questions or to help me think about it in different ways or unconventional ways. And ah you know that back and forth between me and and the AI seems to, at least to me, it feels like it’s helping me get to something slightly different or something newer than my own thinking. Petter Magnusson: Yeah, I think so too. I think we we are ah it’s super interesting with AI, how it operates. I think it gives a clue about ourselves. um’m um I’m of the opinion that we are just AI and the algorithms are very similar. similar Because you know if I look at, ah going back to images, image image generation again, how that actually works inside of an AI. So you you take take a pure noise image, like total random pixels. And then you From there, the AI sees something vague, like, oh, it’s a little bit dark up there. And the prompt was dog. And then it’s going to to change those, like assuming that could be the head, kind of. This is a very simplified way of describing it. But i I see how that is close to how at least my creativity works. you know It’s really, really hard to sit there with a blank page. But as soon as you write something, that could be the start. you know You see it with an empty page and you’re going to write, oh I’m going to write an essay. Or you just write sun and then, ah, sun, right. And then then you can start. It’s the same as this little blob in the noise in a way. So I think it’s basically the same how we operate. So it will be interesting to see how how quickly we get to AGI, you know, this real Rob Marsh: Well, that was going to be my next question. As somebody who you know is is operating in the space, working with these models, do you see AGI as a realistic next step? And how quickly do you think we get there if it is realistic? Petter Magnusson: yeah Yeah, the question of is about the definition also. There’s been some weird definitions floating around. like Some definitions have been financial even, like when when AI can make profits bigger than the certain numbers, it’s AGI, which is really weird in my opinion. But yeah, I’m not sure. i mean, We are already at a level where AI can do many tasks better than most of us. If you look at a lawyer or doctor even, you know AI cannot can do better than most of us on that. But on the other hand, it’s also completely wrong most of the time. ah like There’s always some hallucination in there. And I’m wondering if you cannot… Yeah, that that seems like a big threshold. like It needs to somehow understand what is realistic and real. And that is not I don’t see that happening. It’s just getting better at what it does, but it’s still stuck in this hallucination world. So yeah, um I don’t know. i’m I’m not a machine learning expert but yeah i Rob Marsh: Yeah. Yeah, neither am I. On the other hand, humans also glitch and hallucinate and, you know, break down. So maybe, maybe part of being an actual intelligence is sometimes we’re also actually dumb. Petter Magnusson: Yeah, exactly. And very stubborn about being right when we’re not. Rob Marsh: Yeah, yeah there there there could be something to that. Okay, so what’s next for you as you know owner of Purpose Right? like Where do you see this tool going and doing in the future? Petter Magnusson: Hmm. Yeah, I think what what is happening now is that now the tool is working and I need to start making a lot more guides. And I’m thinking that I should actually cooperate with copywriters on that because I have limited capacity and I’m not the best copywriter, to be honest. So I need to make… more guides that is doing more stuff, because right now, and to be honest, it’s a bit limited. The guides we have and they take a lot of time to make these guides. It’s a lot of work to, you know, it’s it’s really tricky to make them because, yeah, to get technical a bit. But as the prompts again get longer and so on, it’s hard to balance them. Like if you have a lot of choices, then you can have situations where one choice is canceling the other. So, and right now I’m the only one that can do this. ah I need to find some people who can actually help me make make guides. Rob Marsh: Sounds to me, you’re probably talking to the right audience. I have a feeling that you may get a few emails from listeners who are ah eager eager to find out more about that kind of an opportunity. But for copywriters who have resisted using AI for a variety of reasons, you know whether it’s not human enough or it doesn’t feel right or ah you know worries about plagiarism, that kind of stuff, ah it still feels useful to me to be experimenting with these tools. You don’t necessarily need to publish what you’re doing or use it for your clients, although yeah ultimately, you know you may choose to do that.  Understanding how these engines work, the differences between the different kinds of applications, ah it it’s a little bit you know like refusing to use AI feels a little bit like refusing to pick up a smartphone. Yeah, you can continue on with the flip phone. But the rest of the world is doing some pretty amazing things that you no longer understand. You’re no longer a part of. And yeah, you can you can set down your smartphone, you know, but if you haven’t picked it up in the first place, you don’t know what’s going on. And I think there’s maybe a metaphor there for how we should be engaging and Purpose Right may be a tool that people start to play around with a little bit on their own. And there is a free option so people can, you know, but play around and and see how the tool works without worrying about having to pay for it at this point. Petter Magnusson: Exactly. Yeah. And you actually have ChatGPT and Claude in there. so And that is a fun thing also to just try the say prompt same prompt on ChatGPT and Claude and see the difference. They do have a a personality, I would say. It’s funny because in in in the article writer guide, for example, I’m using ChatGPT for research things like find the target audience from looking at this web page. But then for the actual writing, I think Claude is better. Rob Marsh: I agree. Petter Magnusson: But yeah, but they are they are doing a different thing. Like ChatGPT is way too formal and I’m struggling to like loosen up. while While Claude is sometimes the reverse, it’s being, I think it is trained much more on social media posts and stuff because it easily becomes way too, to like TikTok style style basically. And then I have to tell it to calm down, you know, like become a bit more corporate or strict or something. But I think that is easier than having ChatTPT loosen up is more difficult. And then having Claude cool down a bit and and be a bit more strict. Rob Marsh: Yeah, it’s it’s an interesting challenge. And again, one, if if we’re just prompting and and using the tools, it becomes pretty obvious the differences, especially, I mean, the two big ones are obviously Claude and ChatGPT, but there are, you know, i mean, ah Grok is incredibly sarcastic because it’s trained on that Twitter data, which is a place where so many people are are unkind and very sarcastic. You know, if you’re using Meta or LeChat, ah you’re you’re just going to get a different outcome with each. And so, yeah, like my my takeaway here, I think, is, hey, ah well, there’s really two. One, we need to be playing with these tools. And two, we really need to be upskilling when it comes to strategy, thinking, ah conceptualizing, and those those higher level marketing skills. Rob Marsh: Because like I said, i you know where the words used to be the thing we sell, the words now free and it’s the thought. that needs to bring the value to the table. Petter Magnusson: I think that sums it up very well. you know The words are kind of free now. So that that we need to focus on our actual knowledge, and that is to realize that that is actually not putting the words down. Rob Marsh: Petter, if somebody wants to try Purpose Right or to connect with you, where should they go? Petter Magnusson: if they want to try PurposeWrite, it’s PurposeWrite.com. And PurposeWrite as in writing then, and not write as in being right. W-R-I-T. E. Most copywriters should be able to figure that one out. And you can write to me on the info at PurposeWrite.com and I will reply. And hopefully I can, yeah, depends on what you ask, hopefully I can answer something reasonable. Rob Marsh: This has been interesting. I love diving into these tools and seeing, you know, where where we are going and asking some of these questions. So thank you for your time. I appreciate it. Petter Magnusson: Thank you so much. It’s been really fun. And yeah, I’m amazed. Time just flew by here.