The Copywriter Club Podcast

Writing for clients is just one way to build a copywriting business. Once you’ve done that for a while, you may decide it’s not right for you. So what does the alternative look like? I invited copywriter Krystle Church to join for for the 266th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast to talk about that and a lot more. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.   Stuff to check out: Krystle’s Email List The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Research Mastery   Partial Transcript: Rob Marsh: When your business stops working for you, what can you do to fix things? This is The Copywriter Club Podcast. There are a lot of copywriters who build a successful business writing for clients. Or maybe they build an agency around their offers and niche. But then after a few years they don’t love the business they created for themselves. Sometime we just burn out and need to do something a bit different. Maybe they no longer want employees or contractors. Maybe they get tired of working directly with clients. Maybe they realize that instead of using their skills to attract customers to other peoples businesses, they decide to use their skills to sell products to their own clients. And then many of us are entrepreneurs at heart and have always wanted to build a business other than writing for a list of clients. Shifting a business from offering services to clients to something else can be a challenge. It’s a very different kind of work. Instead of creating assets for clients, you may spend your time creating assets for your own business, then spending even more time getting attention for your offers. For many copywriters, this is the dream—a copywriting business with customers instead of clients. But there’s a lot of work that goes into a business switch like this. Validating offers. Finding a client base for your offers—which is almost certainly a very different set of clients than you’ve been writing for. Building out marketing systems to sell your new products. Figuring out how to deliver value when you’re not actually delivering copy. I wanted to talk about this with someone who’s gone through the process recently. So I invited copywriter and coach Krystle Church to come back to the podcast and talk about the changes she’s made to her business over the past couple of years. The business Krystle has today is very different from the one she was running two years ago. She’s excited about the new direction and having more fun than when she was burning out with a calendar full of projects that required her attention from the time she woke up until she went to bed at night. If you’ve been thinking about re-imagining your business, this episode may give you a few ideas to try. You’ll get a few tips about validating a new offer. And you might even decide to dabble with an offer for your niche that at least gives you a taste of what a different kind of business would feel like. This kind of business isn’t for everyone. In fact, it’s probably not for most copywriters. But it’s worth thinking about how you might be able to add to or change your business so it fits your needs a bit better. Before we get to my discussion with Krystle, this episode is brought to you by Research Mastery. Research Mastery is the one-stop program or course that will change your writing for the better. Instead of just organizing words, you’ll have the tools and strategies you need to truly understand your customer so they relate to your offer and buy more often. Research Mastery digs into the 4 critical areas of research… if you miss one of them, your research just isn’t complete. And it includes the A.I. tools you need to do research faster, more effectively, and more profitably. You can learn more about this unqiue program at thecopywriterclub.com/researchmastery  And now my interview with Krystle Church.

Copywriters are teachers. We teach customers how the products and services we write about help them. In this episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, I spoke with teacher turned copywriter Meredith Cooley about all the ways copywriters use their teaching skills. Even if you don’t think you’re a teacher, you’ll learn a lot from this episode—including a simple copywriting lesson from Bluey. Yes, that Bluey. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.   Stuff to check out: Turn the Page Newsletter The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Research Mastery   Transcript: Rob Marsh: Copywriters are teachers. So should more teachers be copywriters? This is The Copywriter Club Podcast. A few years ago I had a conversation with one of my copywriting mentors. She mentioned that she had considered teaching as a possible career path. And I shared that I had the same thought when I started my career. Then we talked about the number of former teachers we knew who had left the classroom to write copy. And that’s when it dawned on me that copywriting isn’t just something that former teachers or potential teachers do.  Copywriting is teaching. But instead of practicing that skill in a classroom, copywriters are teaching on the page or on the screen, helping potential customers learn about products and solutions, about processes and unique mechanisms, and how to solve the very real problems and pains they are experiencing in their lives. In the years since, I’ve interviewed close to a dozen former teachers on this podcast… people who are still teaching, just not in a formal classroom any more. Do you feel this as a copywriter? Do you see yourself as a teacher for your clients and their customers? My guest for today’s podcast is Meredith Cooley, a teacher turned copywriter who has helped dozens of other teachers leave the classroom and become copywriters for various businesses around the world. Teachers have so many skills that copywriters need, from project management to engaging with stakeholders at various levels of a business. And perhaps most importantly, good teachers have to be able to take dry, boring content and make it exciting for an often disinterested and bored audience. And if you listened to last week’s episode, you heard me talk about how I’ve started teaching marketing at a local college here in my home town. The crossover between teaching students and writing for customers is large. And that’s what this episode is all about. Even if you don’t see yourself as a teacher, this episode may change your mind about how you think about your relationship with the customers you write for. Before we get to our interview, this episode is brought to you by Research Mastery. Research Mastery is the one-stop program or course that will change your writing for the better. Instead of just organizing words, you’ll have the tools and strategies you need to truly understand your customer so they relate to your offer and buy more often. Research Mastery digs into the 4 critical areas of research… if you miss one of them, your research just isn’t complete. And it includes the A.I. tools you need to do research faster, more effectively, and more profitably. You can learn more about this unqiue program at thecopywriterclub.com/researchmastery  And now my interview with Meredith Cooley.    

This episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast is another guest-less show. It’s just Rob sharing a few thoughts about the importance of creating customer journeys for the products you write for so you’re actually addressing your customer’s needs and not just your clients. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.   Stuff to check out: The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Research Mastery   What we talked about: Transcript is underway…

What’s the biggest opportunity for copywriters today? That’s just one of the ideas we talked about on this episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. Tiana Asperjan is my guest and we talked about how she became a copywriter, her “secrets” for connecting with clients, showing up consistently even when things are uncomfortable, and the biggest opportunities for writers today. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.   Stuff to check out: Tiana’s YouTube Tiana’s Newsletter The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Research Mastery   Highlights from this episode: Rob Marsh: What is the biggest opportunity in copywriting today? We’re about to reveal the answer. This is The Copywriter Club Podcast. When inviting guests to share their experiences on this podcast, I often look for writers who are doing something a little bit differently than their peers are doing. Someone who has a different approach, a unique viewpoint on something, or maybe they’re testing things that the rest of us just aren’t up to speed on yet. My guest on today’s podcast is Tiana Asperjan. Lately I’ve been seing Tiana everywhere… although that might just be a function of the algorithm showing me more stuff like the stuff I’ve seen recently. If you’re a copywriter, Tiana’s Youtube channel, social media feed, and newsletter are excellent. She’s teaching what works in ads and copy right now. But she doesn’t just say what’s working, she focuses on the strategy and psychology behind an ad so you know not just that it works, but why it works. She’s doing things a bit differently from a lot of other copywriters and most of us who are sharing ideas and insights about copywriting with other writers. So I asked her to join me on today’s episode and boy am I glad that I did. I like all of the interviews I share with you each week, but this one really stands out. Tiana’s story of how she got to where she is is a masterclass on the steps to success as a writer. It’s less about the destination, and more about accumulating the experiences and expertise you need to be great. I think as you listen in, you’ll learn a lot from Tiana’s experiences. As for the answer to that question I posed at the opening of this episode… what’s the biggest opportunity for copywriters working today who want to stay relevant for years to come? Well, you’ll just have to listen to this episode because Tiana reveals what it is and why this particular “niche” —and I’ve got niche in air quotes here—is where more copywriters ought to be focusing their efforts today. If you want a look at a industry or niche that is desperate for help from good copywriters, you’ll want to keep listening. Before we get to all that, this episode is brought to you by Research Mastery. Research Mastery is the one-stop program or course that will change your writing for the better. Instead of just organizing words, you’ll have the tools and strategies you need to truly understand your customer so they relate to your offer and buy more often. Research Mastery digs into the 4 critical areas of research… if you miss one of them, your research just isn’t complete. And it includes the A.I. tools you need to do research faster, more effectively, and more profitably. You can learn more about this unqiue program at thecopywriterclub.com/researchmastery

Ciler Demiralp, a newsletter strategist and founder of Newsletter Circle, discusses the booming world of newsletters. She emphasizes the untapped potential for copywriters to build their businesses through this medium. Ciler shares her journey from corporate marketer to successful newsletter entrepreneur, highlighting the importance of connecting with audiences. She offers insights on monetization strategies, urges creators to understand their audience's needs, and outlines essential tools for building and engaging with subscribers.

Want to do more than “write” copy? Then you need to get involved with your client’s projects before they decide what they’re going to do. And to explain how you do that, copywriter Jamie Thomson joins me on The Copywriter Club Podcast. We talked about his process for going from discovery call to paid workshop and then paid project on this episode. You don’t want to miss it. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.   Stuff to check out: Jamie’s website Jamie’s free Strategist Copywriter Course The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Full Transcript: Rob Marsh: If you’re a copywriter who wants more input into the work you do and more money for contributing your insights early, keep listening. This is The Copywriter Club Podcast. Far too many copywriters are content taking an assignment from a client and simply writing the words. In fact, there are thousands of copywriters and content writers who think that’s what copywriting is—choosing the right words to make a client sound good. They even call themselves wordsmiths as if all they’re doing is coming up with the words. Now obviously, writing the words is a big part of what we do. Often, it’s the only obvious part of a project that we can point to and say, that’s my work. But great copywriters don’t start with writing the words. They get involved in their client’s projects much earlier in the process. Before design direction is figured out. Before the brand voice is settled. Even before a client decides what exactly they need to solve the marketing problem they have. This is where copywriters should start on a project. That work is strategy… deep diving on the problem to be solved and exploring the various ways to find a solution, some of which might not even be copywriting-focused. Okay, so how do you do it. My guest for this episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast is Jamie Thomson. Jamie takes his clients from discovery call to paid workshop to project in a process that immediately puts him in charge of driving the strategy for a project. It’s a process that makes him significantly more valuable and critical to the success of a project than simply taking a project from a client and writing the copy. What’s more, because Jamie plays such an important role in his projects, and his impact is obvious to his clients, they often come back for even more work which takes the pressure off client-finding and allows him to spend more time client serving. In the age of A.I., when the machines can write copy faster than you can… and yes I know, it’s not as good, but can your clients tell the difference? So in the age of A.I., this is one strategy that makes you more valuable as a copywriter who solves problems and gets paid to do it. If that sounds interesting to you, then stick around. And if that doesn’t sound interesting to you, maybe Jamie’s soothing Scottish accent will be enough to keep you engaged. It works for me. No matter what kind of copywriting business you want for yourself, The Copywriter Underground is packed with resources to show up as a business owner—not just a freelancer—to help you find clients, and solve big problems that clients are happy to pay big money to get off their plates. From copywriting and business templates to get you started (including a legal document and a proven onboarding process) to workshops to help you build your authority, attract clients, create products and services your clients want to buy, how to be more strategic and a lot more—The Underground is like a starter-kit for your writing business… It’s a complete business-in-a-box that you can plug into your own business and hit play. As questions come up, you have access to our private slack community, monthly group coaching, and regular feedback on your copy. I’ve been inside a lot of memberships and The Underground is the best value for content writers and copywriters I’ve ever seen. You can learn more by visiting thecopywriterclub.com/tcu-2. And now, my interview with Jamie Thomson…         Thanks to Jamie Thomson for sharing his process for getting involved with strategy early on in a project where you can have a bigger impact and show how valuable your thinking is for solving real problems.  Like I said at the beginning of the show, when A.I. can write copy that clients think is good enough, you need to contribute to your client’s marketing efforts in new ways, hopefully ways where you can add even more value. Jamie’s process is one of those ways. It’s not exactly a roadmapping session which is another way to play a strategic role with clients—with a workshop you take the lead in helping clients determine what needs to be created and getting buy in on direction which helps eliminate changes and rework later on. If you implement Jamie’s approach, email me to let me know how it goes. I’d love to hear how you make it work for your business. And of course, another place to find resources to help you show up as a more strategic thinker is The Copywriter Underground. There are workshops on finding clients, pitching, discovery calls, using diagnostic tools like a scorecard to get clients to say yes to working with you… workshops on copywriting, A.I., voice, and so much more. Check them all out at thecopywriterclub.com/tcu-2. 

Join content strategist Sue Bowness, author of The Feisty Freelancer, as she shares her journey through the freelance landscape. She defines the essence of a 'feisty freelancer'—energetic, proactive, and unafraid to advocate for clients. Sue talks about mastering client outreach and effective productivity strategies to thrive in a competitive market. Learn about the importance of resilience in overcoming rejection, and insights from her own experience in traditional publishing. It’s a lively discussion packed with inspiration for freelancers!

Clients need strategy. But they don’t always know that’s what they need. So how do you sell it to them? How do you ensure your work is strategic even if all your client wants is a few emails? My guest for the 459th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast is copywriter Kristen Vanderhoek who specializes in strategy. She spills the secrets for selling strategy to your prospects on this episode. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript. Stuff to check out: CursorAndInk.com The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground   Full Transcript: Rob Marsh: Is strategy a big part of your copywriting business? If it isn’t now, it probably should be. This is The Copywriter Club Podcast. Every client needs a strategy. But they don’t always see it that way. They just want the emails or the web site or the launch plan. But it’s the strategy that ensures that the deliverables go to the right person, include the right message, have the right call to action—all at the right time. Clients want the deliverables and the benefits of the strategy, but they don’t always connect the two. So it becomes your job as the copywriter or content strategist to connect the dots for them, to show how strategy leads to better copy and content. On this episode of the podcast, my guest is Kristen Vanderhoek, a copywriter who focuses on brand strategy. We talked about how to approach strategy projects—Kristen shared exactly how she does it. And we talked about how you sell strategy to clients who usually just want to deliverable. We also talked about Kristen’s HOME framework, the step-by-step process she follows when working with clients to ensure they get well-thought out, strategic copy and design. Finally, one of Kristen’s differentiators is her white-glove service. She takes steps to make working with her feel like a high-end experience and makes sure her clients aren’t left wondering what’s going on, or feeling like they overpaid because the presentation at the end of the project isn’t just a file hand-off. If you’re a copywriter who is ready to level up the projects you work on and the way you deliver that work to your clients, you’ll want to listen to this interview. Before we get to my interview with Kristen, this episode is brought to you by The Copywriter Underground. The Underground includes monthly coaching and expert workshops, an accountability group to keep you moving toward your goals, and more than 70 different workshops  to help you gain the skills and strategies you need to build your business. Recently I asked a new member why she joined the Underground and she said she did it for the copy reviews. She wanted feedback on her work to help her improve her writing. And where many writing coaches charge as much as $1500 to look at a single sales page, you can get unlimited reviews in The Underground for less than $90 a month. Honestly this just might be the best value in the copywriting world. You can learn more by visiting thecopywriterclub.com/tcu-2. And now, my interview with Kristen Vanderhoek… Transcript coming….

Lacy Lieffers, an author and book marketing coach, shares her expertise in helping writers navigate the book-writing process. She discusses the importance of setting clear goals and treating writing as a priority, along with strategies for structuring a manuscript effectively. Lacy delves into the decision between using a real name and a pen name, highlighting its impact on branding. She also emphasizes the power of books as business tools, offering insights on marketing and building credibility in the industry.

What does it take to write in the health and wellness niche? I asked copywriter Kristen Driscoll about that on this 457th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. The wellness niche is booming and now is the time for good copywriters to jump in. Want to know why? Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.   Stuff to check out: Kristen’s LinkedIn The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Full Transcript: Rob Marsh: Writing for the health and wellness industry takes a special set of skills. And that’s what we talking about today on The Copywriter Club Podcast. One of the questions I get asked the most as a copywriting coach is which niche pays the most. I’m on the record as a big proponent of niching… our own research which you’ll find published on our blog shows that copywriters who write in a single niche make almost two times more than copywriters without a niche. And copywriters who are focused on 2-3 niches make 30% more than writers without a niche. But not all niches are equal. Some niches pay more than others… the financial niche is one of those and we’ve published several episodes in the past talking about that niche… look for our interviews with Clayton Makepeace, Kyle Milligan, Jake Hoffberg and Ridge Abraham. Most of those episode are a few years old. Partly because of its reputation as a profitable niche, it’s hard to break into work with the high-paying financial publishers. Another niche that is generally thought of as high-paying is the health and wellness niche, especially writers who work with supplement makers, fat loss products and medtech. So what do you need to know to break into this lucrative niche? I asked Kristen Driscoll, a health copywriter, to talk a bit about how she broke in and the work that she does. It’s a roadmap for your own path to success with wellness clients if you choose to follow it. We talked about how Kristen found her first client in the niche, why she chose health as the industry she wanted to work in, and why wellness is a such a massive opportunity for writers today. I think you’ll like this discussion that Kristen and I had so stick around. Before we get to my interview with Kristen, this episode is brought to you by The Copywriter Underground. The Underground includes monthly coaching and expert workshops, an accountability group to keep you moving toward your goals, and more than 70 different workshops  to help you gain the skills and strategies you need to build your business. Recently I asked a new member why she joined the Underground and she said she did it for the copy reviews. She wanted feedback on her work to help her improve her writing. And where many writing coaches charge as much as $1500 to look at a single sales page, you can get unlimited reviews in The Underground for less than $90 a month. Honestly this just might be the best value in the copywriting world. You can learn more by visiting thecopywriterclub.com/tcu-2. And now, my interview with Kristen Driscoll… Hey, Kristen, welcome to the podcast. I am really excited to talk to you about how you became marketing strategist and a direct response copywriter for health and wellness brands and all of the things. So tell us your story. Kristen Driscoll:  Well, thank you so much for having me on. I think, like many direct cop direct response copywriters and marketing folks… so that was my first career, and then I was a full time yoga teacher for 14 years, and still teach yoga. And also a lot of kind of some similarities there that I could draw upon with copywriting and getting started. So from moving on from copywriting or moving on from full time yoga teaching, is when I discovered copywriting and went full off the deep end and kind of immersed myself in in learning the craft, because it really is a craft, you know, some getting those principles down, I think, is key for a longevity of a career. Rob Marsh: Let’s talk a little bit about what you did in the music industry. I know you got a couple of good stories, but, yeah, what were some of the bands that you helped promote? What were some of the things that you were doing to bring people in, you know, to the audiences, to the venues for all of these bands? Kristen Driscoll:  Well, the very first, my very first job in the music industry was for an entertainment law firm, and that’s where I think I shared with you on one post. You know, there’s that question that goes around like, name one thing you’ve done that you’re sure that none of no other friends of yours has done. And one of the ones I example, I use in that a lot is that I am the witness on Deedee Ramone’s prenup. Rob Marsh: This is awesome. This is such like if, if I, if that was me, that would be like the headline on my website. I would just that would be, probably has nothing to do with anything that I do, but I just think that’s such a cool thing about you. I love that. Kristen Driscoll: Yeah, thanks. And it’s another example of you can really use a whole lot of fodder to get people’s attention, and sometimes the actual story behind it isn’t quite as glamorous as as as it can sound. But… Rob Marsh: Well, let me stop you there, because tell the because I think this is actually a really good copywriting lesson. Tell the story like because you’re right, it’s just something that kind of happened, but then the headline is amazing, right? Kristen Driscoll: So really it was nothing much more than I was in the right place at the right time, my assistant, the assistant to the lawyer, who was Dee. Dee’s lawyer, was out to lunch, and they needed somebody to pull into the conference room and be the signatory. So it really was kind of that, that simple. But then, when you know, know how to take just your, your own individual rich history, and pull out the little nuggets that are true, but will also, you know, get people’s attention and get get, uh, get the get the party started. Rob Marsh: We’ll definitely dive into this a lot more when we’re talking about writing for health and wellness brands. Wellness brands. But to me, this is like one of the things that I really love about writing supplement copy, because you’re always looking for that one detail that you can pull out and build a story around, or that one little thing about it that nobody else is talking about, that you can you know, have be the mechanism, or have be that interest thing that pulls people in, and then it’s not, you know, usually the story is much bigger than that one small detail, but you’re looking like that’s, to me, that’s one of the main skill sets of writing supplement copy. So anyway, that’s, I kind of wanted to draw a line into that. Because I just think this is a key skill, and that story illustrates as well as anything else. Kristen Driscoll: I think that’s a really great point, a really, really great example. And also, on the other end, knowing just how to tell a story that nobody else is telling, you know, you can go back to the Schlitz beer. You know, everybody was making the beer the same exact way, but just taking the time to stop and tell the story and romanticize it and use every possible thing that you have at your disposal. Rob Marsh: So while we’re still talking about music, tell me a couple of your favorite bands that I should probably add to my listening list as I’m sitting down writing copy, what were some of the bands that you really loved promoting or loved listening to? Kristen Driscoll: Sure, well, the one I’ll say, and I’ve never worked with him personally, but I get to see him often here in Austin, and more and more, he’s getting rightful attention as just one of the major lyricists. You know, people like to talk about Stephen King’s book on writing. Well, Stephen King just named James McMurtry as the number one lyricist like ever. So I think it’s like a master class in storytelling in like five minutes or less. And so many different examples you could pull from, you know, starting in the middle of the story, coming on with a lyric that just grabs you right from the beginning. There’s so many different examples of how to do it well, using picture words, you know, just one sentence that just sets this incredibly vivid scene. So I think we could go on for an hour on all the different ways that you could look at really great songwriters as master storytellers and paying attention to how they’re doing it. Rob Marsh: Yeah, there are definitely copywriters who have, you know, come from the music industry or play around in the music industry. And that’s, I think, one of the things that sometimes makes them a little bit different. They’re really good at tempo, at, like you said, picture, words, or, you know, telling a story in a very simple way. So I’m adding James McMurtry to my Spotify list. And we’re done recording here. I’m gonna, I’ll be relaxing, you know, with the Coke Zero. Kristen Driscoll: I think you can’t, you can’t go wrong. There’s just so many great examples there that you can pull from. Rob Marsh: And then, after being in the music industry for a while, you were this Bikram yoga teacher. Talk a little bit about some of the lessons from yoga that apply to copywriting, or at least to the writing that you do. Kristen Driscoll: Absolutely, I think, you know, pulling back to the bigger lens, I think there’s so many similarities. So in Bikram, we talk about the five qualities of mind that you need to practice yoga, and all of them are applicable. So you need a determination. You know from the very beginning, you need to be able to roll up your sleeves and do the work. Be disciplined, get in there and do it self control, which is another one from, again, doing the work, learning the craft, to starting to understand client negotiations and client management. You know, we’ve all been in a difficult client situation where, gosh, if you can just stop and take a deep breath and walk away and come back composed is a big one concentration. You know, there are so many templates and so many tools we have now, but if you’re going to be in the long game and you’re going to learn this craft. It’s not as easy as just slapping something into AI. You have to stick with understanding the really basics and all those just old school things that you can’t really skip over. Patience is one, you know, if you listen to patience and faith, which especially for newer copywriters coming in. You know, there are offers out there that make it sound like you’re going to be making a million dollars in a month, and it’s just doesn’t work that way. So having that patience to know it’s gonna it all good things are there for you, but it’s gonna take, likely, a little longer than you might want it to, a little longer than some people might paint a picture for, and having the faith that if you just do all of the right things and you kind of keep at it, you’re gonna find your way, and you’re gonna find your niche and find your clients. Rob Marsh: So if that is a baseline, then why the turn to copy. And how did you start, you know, with your first client, how did you decide you wanted to be a copywriter? Kristen Driscoll: I stumbled onto copywriting Christy Goldfeder, who is a successful, wonderful copywriter in this space. You probably know her. She and I were went to college together, so I was wrapping up my time as a full time Bikram teacher and trying to figure out what I was going to do next. I’ve always been a writer, but I didn’t know kind of the direct response world. And I had, I had dinner with Christy, and I was like, how are you traveling the world? You know that dream of being a digital nomad, like, how are you traveling the world and working? Like, what do you do? And it’s like, I’m a direct response copywriter, you know, I leaned in, you know, tell me, tell me more. And really, just immediately dove off the deep end, bought my first Awai course, and just finally found something that was a perfect blend of my natural creative writing ability, my marketing background and where I could apply my love for health and wellness, um and I was also off to the races. Rob Marsh: So with that learning then, and I’ve seen a lot of aw eyes resources and the things that they do, how did you find your first client? Kristen Driscoll: My very first client, I believe I founded an AWAI conference. Okay, yeah, so I kind of went all in on that conference. Really put my last bit of financial resources into getting myself there and got my first client so that all that all worked out. Rob Marsh: And what did that interaction look like? Because, you know. I imagine there are a lot of people who are thinking, Okay, well, I’ll go to this event where maybe I’m the only copywriter, and I’m talking to potential clients. But it’s one thing to be there, and it’s a whole other thing to strike up a conversation where people are thinking, hey, this person can help me solve this problem that I have. Kristen Driscoll: Yeah, absolutely. And for being a newbie, I think realistically, like you’re not gonna go in with different copy chops that are, you know, you’re not gonna go in with that level of being able to compete on on that. So I think having the underlying interest, it was for health and wellness brands. So I think my natural passion for true health and wellness and coming up with those solutions shown through, shined through. And I think it’s a personality match too, like, don’t be afraid to go out there and show up as yourself and, you know, make those one on one connections, because that, I think, ultimately, is going to be what gets you in the door. And then you just got to roll up your sleeves and be willing to do the work and rinse and repeat, you know. Rob Marsh: So why did you choose health and wellness as your niche? Kristen Driscoll: Because of my yoga background, really is where that that came came through in I’m going back to it now too, in a way that I’ve been coaching a lot of clients recently through some offer changes and maybe some business changes, kind of bigger picture, and over and over again, what it’s coming down for me and for clients. And this goes back to just why health and wellness in general is you have to have that duck in a row before anything else can be built. And so one thing I’m I’m my point with that being like, right now, I’m seeing a lot from copywriters with AI and kind of people pivoting that way, and some business coaching that I’m doing where people are trying to pivot. It comes if you can come back to being your best, healthiest version of you. Like, this is some messaging that is oddly coming into the My ether, and I think is worth talking about here. Now I just was at the Destiny event and in Austin, and Joe Polish was talking about it too, like and any time of transition, at any time of starting something, you can show up in your best possible health and wellness. You know you can get your sleep, you can have good nutrition. You can prioritize managing your nervous system and until those big building blocks are in place, nothing else is really gonna ultimately fall in place easily or for very long. So I think that personal interest and commitment to health and wellness really drove it for me. If that makes sense? Rob Marsh: Yeah, it makes sense. It feels to me like health and wellness is a growing industry. It’s one of those places where there are more and more opportunities rather than fewer. And I know there, there are some things going on in all of the markets with AI and and stuff like that. But because of the way that populations are aging, and the baby boomers are kind of in that 60 to 80 year old phase where nutritional supplements matter, where, you know, if you haven’t been taking care of your health, you’ve got to start doing something significant right now. And then millennials, you know, two generations back, are sort of moving into their 40s, where, you know, awareness of this kind of stuff matters as much as ever, and people are really trying to take care of themselves. So as far as, like, a niche to consider writing in, it feels like there’s a ton of opportunity here. Talk a little bit about that. Kristen Driscoll: There’s a ton of opportunity. And not just, I mean, you mentioned, like the supplements, but that is really only one possibility. You know, you could write for yoga studios. You could write for sleep brands. You could it. There’s so many. There’s your mental health. You know, you could start getting into tools for more mental well being. It’s like a limitless… Rob Marsh: Yeah, I mean, off the top of my head, I can think of like. Medical devices and doctors, even even things like, I mean, this isn’t really wellness necessarily, but even like hospice services and elder care, like, they’re just so many of these industries that are critical for people who need them, and that population right now is growing. Kristen Driscoll: Absolutely, that’s actually the talking about hospice is an area, more and more I’m starting to see really interesting things happening with deaf death doulas and coaches who are not just, you know, wellness coaches, but are death coaches Helping people transition and their families. So there really are so many possibilities and so many brands that need help. Rob Marsh: So when it comes to writing for these kinds of brands, is it just like everybody else, you know, if I’m a SaaS copywriter, can I, can I turn around and just, you know, identify a benefit, or what are some of the differences when we want to be thinking about wellness, as opposed to, say, software or coaching, or, you know, any of the other big industries that copywriters tend to gravitate to? Kristen Driscoll: I think it always goes back to the basics of the problem that you’re solving and the person that you’re solving it for, and especially with with health and wellness, there’s another there’s added layers like so there’s a compliance layer, you know, you’re going to have to have more knowledge about what you legally can and can’t say for compliance. But ultimately, it really comes back to making sure you are understanding how to how to install, instill that, that hope, as well as point out the things that they’re struggling with. And I think sometimes you see a lot of really heavy hit hitting, like fear based copy, and that’s, I think, a misstep a lot of kind of newer copywriters can do is just fear, fear, fear, fear, fear, without immediately offering that hopeful solution. Because, you know, we do need to find a path forward. So I think that’s a really crucial part, is showing people the possibilities of how their lives can be less, you know, more enjoyable, more freedom, longevity. Rob Marsh: Yeah, I like that, because it does seem natural to gravitate towards the fear. You know, you you’re in your you’re a male in your 50s, you’re going to have a heart attack, you know, by the time you’re, you know, this age, or if you’ve, if you’ve had pizza and burgers, you know, once or twice a week for the last 40 years, your arteries are clogged. And it’s not only your heart health now, it’s also your brain health and and risk for things like Alzheimer’s and dementia. Obviously, there are all kinds of, you know, immuno diseases and and conditions that people struggle with throughout their life. So it’s really easy to gravitate to like, oh, here are all the horrible things. So what’s your trick for turning it to hope and you know, the positive potential futures? Kristen Driscoll: Yeah, you have to. Because the thing is, if you don’t, if you just come on too heavy handed with the fear you’re just gonna shut people down. Nobody wants to, like shy shy away from that. Again, it goes back to just really doing the deep research on your product, on the unique mechanism of your solution, and finding that truthful nugget of how it’s going to to be a positive change. You know, there’s a lot of smaller little things like you can look at speed of results and make sure that you’re highlighting that these changes can happen. And as little as you know, however fast your product can work. So just you gotta really understand what is your prospect is worried about. That’s another thing I see come up a lot is like the faux benefits, you know, like, get off the roller coast, the blood pressure roller coaster. You know, nobody wakes up in the middle of the night being like, oh my god, I really wish I could just get off the blood pressure roller coaster. Rob Marsh: I mean, they think, but, but that that’s a real problem. But they think about like, oh, wow, I’m taking too many pills, or my blood pressure still. High or I’m not living the life that I want to live, right? Kristen Driscoll: Yep, I think the answer really is as simple as you have to keep peeling a bat back, like you may have, you may think you peeled enough layers of the onion, but you’ve got to go like 12 more layers deep. I was just working on a coaching project last week, and we were sitting down, and this woman had a real breakthrough, and we were talking about it in the session the wrap up session afterwards, and they’re like, oh, so she finally got it after like five whys. I was like, No, we skipped five. Whys. It took us like 17. Wise, you know, so if you stop at the like, Okay, I got this exercise that I was taught to do, and I did it. I asked five times, okay, well, maybe in some cases you might have to ask 27 times. You have to just kind of be ruthless in your peeling back what is really underneath it all. Rob Marsh: And exercises like those, sometimes are really difficult to conduct with a client, because ultimately, you know, there are only so many needs that we have. You know, people want to have more money, they want to have more time, they want to have more companionship or sex, or however you want to, you know, characterize that. You know, maybe there’s, there’s some form of self actualization, you know, that, that all this stuff goes to but those kinds of things also are not that appealing, you know, you can’t, you can’t promote, you know, this vitamin supplement saying, well, you’re just going to have better health, right? Like you have to go so deep, and so it’s, I mean, I like how you say, you know you’re peeling back the each layer. But it almost takes an expert to realize that what we’re dealing with at that level five or maybe level even still, level seven or eight is still so general that it doesn’t really address the pain points or the triggers that people are experiencing in their lives. Kristen Driscoll: What I most more often find is when you start peeling back, it’s that people are resistant to say out loud something that they want but maybe shouldn’t want. Interesting, like, are ashamed to want? Rob Marsh: Can you give an example of what sounds shallow? Kristen Driscoll: So I’ll use the example from last week. And this woman, she’s a health and wellness coach, but it was, we were talking about her own marketing, and there was some resistance in her. She was a perfectionist, and there was resistance in her getting this offer out. So I was like, Well, what are you really afraid of? And it took like going she was afraid to kind of admit that. She was afraid of what people were going to think of her once the offer was out there, you know, and it’s something that is so basic and so simple, but it was creating this huge friction that was preventing her from getting the thing done. So, you know, sometimes we’re searching for this magic new answer, and there might not be. It might just be kind of cracking that resistance in the client or, you know, to get to that that point. So that’s an example more of how to interview your clients, and you know, then you have to do the work and how that’s going to all translate to whatever your headline and end lead is for the product. But like we said before, even in these stories, that might seem like nothing. But then you get down to Oh yeah, and I was DDS witness on the prenup, you know, like these things that aren’t that your client or your product might be taking for granted. Yep, you know, you got to kind of keep hammering at, yeah. Rob Marsh: I mean, the way, you know, when I’ve written for supplements, you know, it’s always interesting, because the supplements, the bottle says, you know, ingredients include, you know, vitamin C or potassium or whatever. But as you dig deeper and look at like, okay, where does the supply come from? Or, where does that particular ingredient come from? Yeah, it just happens that this one comes from some rare berry that only grows in, you know, certain fields in the Himalayas or whatever, and, you know, is harvested once, you know, a two week period, once every winter like there, there’s almost always something like that that you’re then. Now I’ve got a really interesting story about, you know, the harvest. Just in the Himalayas, not even related to the fact that maybe it addresses my knee pain, but it’s something that I can get attention with up front before we start talking about all of the things that this thing does. Right? That’s, I think that’s what i and this might be a little bit more difficult, you know, finding something that different about, say, a health coach or, you know, a therapist. But there are stories like that too in their lives. You know, the therapist who, you know, studied at a particular university where, you know, maybe there’s this experimental thing going on or, you know, like, and that’s the kind of digging that most research courses don’t teach. You know, most copywriting courses don’t even talk about they do talk about finding the big idea, but they don’t always talk about how to go so deep that you can actually get the idea. And so when I hear supplement writers, health writers, who talk about, oh yeah, I did research for three weeks. And I think copywriters go three weeks like, What in the world are you looking at for three weeks? Well, this is what they’re doing. They’re looking for that. Kristen Driscoll: Yeah, and it can also be the difference in the brand or the owner, instead of like, if you can’t find something, maybe the formula isn’t so different. But there really is so much truth to the fact that 12 different people could be selling the same exact thing, and it’s going to appeal to 12 different people based on the spokesperson, based on the person creating the product. It really, there really is that room for nuance in attracting our best people. Yeah. So it’s not about creating, you know, again, going back to just timeless marketing principles, it’s not about creating this desire. It’s about fi, you know, unveiling what’s already there and just making sure it aligns with the same the right people. Rob Marsh: So when you stumble on an idea like that, how do you know it’s the one? How do you know, like, Oh, this is something I can build a promotion around, or I can write a sales page around, or a series of emails, or whatever. Kristen Driscoll: The thing is, yeah, it’s usually just kind of a gut hit, you know, like something just sticks at you. You’re like, Oh, that’s interesting. I personally like to print things and use a highlighter and, like, have my hands in different color on things. I think one of the biggest ways I made my life easier is, you know, when you first start a project is just absorb all the information and then set it, set it aside. I don’t know if I’m sure I’m not alone like this, but sometimes you start a project and there’s, like, this initial like, maybe a little procrastination, maybe you don’t crack into it a couple days later than you plan to, but if I can just put all of that aside and like, just get a raw read first and then let it sit. It’s amazing. What will percolate, you know? So there’s that first pass of things that pop out at you, and then doing that early, early, early, like the day you get that or whatever, just don’t let yourself sit on it and then kind of put it on the back burner for a little bit, revisit it. That’s my my process. It just immediately what strikes and very rarely is what struck me first. Not had that same hit. When I go back to it a couple of days, Rob Marsh: It seems like also there can be this opposite problem, where, when you’re so deep in a niche, you sort of know it all. And I know that’s not always true, but, but so a new copy project will come to you, and it’s this familiar problem that you’ve written about maybe a couple of times before. And you think, Well, I know how to deal with this. I’ll just write x right? Like, it’s that approach that I’ve used before. And I think it can be really difficult to take a step back from that and say, Okay, wait a second. I actually need to go deeper here, Kristen Driscoll: 100% and another, like, word of warning that I had to learn the hard way, is sometimes you become so ingrained in those immediate benefits, like, it’s second nature to you. Like, I’ve written for a long term client, like for a blood pressure supply, like product where I caught myself like, oh my god, you didn’t even mention the benefits of the blood pressure because I was so used to saying it over and over again. So I think that’s a word to the whys of something we have to remember, like, just because it’s so ingrained in us, the reason. Readers hearing it for the first time. It’s kind of an opposite point of what you were just asking. Rob Marsh: But in some ways it’s the same, because it’s that curse of knowledge, right? I see this all the time in things that I write, and then I see what other people are writing the same kind of a product, and I think to myself, Man, that is so the way they’re talking about it is so basic, you know, I’m so beyond that, but then it’s selling. And clearly I am not the market, right? And we are not our markets. And so, yeah, that, I think that becomes a really hard thing to get over as a writer, especially maybe in the health dish. Kristen Driscoll: Yeah, that’s another thing where I can tie that to yoga and like that, that beginner’s mind. It’s a real it can be a real gift to approach every new project with that beginner’s mind like kind of pretend you don’t know what you don’t what you know. Come at it with a fresh, fresh eyes. Rob Marsh: As you’ve built your business, Kristen, what are some of the biggest challenges that you’ve dealt with? I mean, obviously there are challenges with writing the copy, but also business challenges finding clients, you know, all that kind of stuff. Where have you struggled and really had to work hard to figure things out? Kristen Driscoll: Yeah, I feel like I’ve probably had all, all the problems that anybody can. You know, you have different levels of problems as as you grow. You know, so first is just getting any, any client. Is that that that first hurdle, and what I still sometimes struggle with is I’m horrible at prospecting. I’m like the cobbler has no shoes. I don’t do my own marketing very often or very I’ve, I luckily have gotten to a point where most of my work is word of mouth and referrals and clients. But, but still, you know, like, I’ll, I’ll be, I’ll get so wrapped up in doing my work, I’ll forget to build my business. And that’s something that I still this long in the game. Have ebbs and flows of because, again, I’ve kind of, for the most part, gotten my lead generation under control. So it’s not a problem until all of a sudden it’s like, oh, wait, this project’s wrapping up. I guess I should reach out to some old clients. At first, there’s just getting your copy chops up enough to be able to to know what you’re looking at and to give good advice. Then, then there comes a level of understanding that there’s only so much you can guide somebody towards, you know, like you can. I work with some clients today. I love working with them. They’ve got, you know, million million dollar brands, and still, sometimes you’ll give a strong recommendation of something, and they’ll do the opposite. And, you know, I’ve had some copywriters and marketers be like, well, you have to fire any client that’s like that. And if they’re not gonna, if they’re gonna change a word of your copy, you shouldn’t work with them. And there’s some you know, like, if you’re doing all for, you know, heavy royalties, or things like that, there’s absolutely a time, you know, to choose your battles. But if you are going to be a person who comes in and collaborates with other brands, it’s not your company. Like, if you’re going to continue to work with those clients, there is going to have to be a a certain amount of being willing to surrender. Like, I know that that subject line is awful for 27 different reasons, but he loves it. He’s gonna run with it. Like Choose, choose your battles a little bit. Rob Marsh: Yeah, I’ve heard the same thing. There are times, obviously, if you’ve got red flags and your clients not respecting you, of course, yeah, fire the client. But the client ultimately owns the product. They own the business, right? And so while you do your best, you have to respect that they know what they’re doing. Kristen Driscoll: And respect that it’s their choice and that, you know? Rob Marsh: It’s their company at the end of the day, exactly, okay, Kristen, if you had to start over, you have none of your experience, but you know, you want to be a supplement copywriter. I mean, maybe you’ve got the music industry, the yoga stuff, but you’re ready to launch your business as a supplement copywriter. Do you wanna do it as fast as possible? You wanna have success as quickly as possible. What would you do starting today to make sure that you were a success three or six months from now? Kristen Driscoll: I would be careful of who I’m writing for. Would be, be one, especially with supplements. There’s some really, really great quality products out there, and there’s some snake oil out there. I firmly believe that the better you position yourself and the like the company you keep you know, like I try to write for brands that I personally am behind, I think that at the end of the day is going to be a huge help. So work with a quality supplement that will actually give you some something to work with, you know, an interesting brand that’s got a story, or just something that you can kind of get get behind our own personal passion really shines through with products. So if you know it’s just a big pile of poop and you’re trying to put lipstick on a pig, I think you’ve got an uphill battle. If you find a product that you’re really excited to get the word out about, you’ve already got that wind underneath your wings, and working with a quality thing is going to give you more quality ideas that you can can work from. Rob Marsh: Is there a trick for identifying the snake oils from the quality products? You know, for somebody who isn’t in the industry, you know, one product may look very much like another? Kristen Driscoll: Yeah, I do your research. We’re copywriters. We should be able to research right? So I think if it’s a brand that’s been around for a little while, you understand the person’s story, you know you can dig into whether it’s a real unique mechanism, or whether it’s just, you can kind of tell the ClickBank really, I don’t want to say everything on Clickbank is one of these offers, but you can tell, like the really far fetched promises. Rob Marsh: I know a lot of this comes with experience as you know, as you work with a client, you realize, Wow, I don’t ever want to, you know, do that again or have that experience, but being able to, you know, research, look up, you know, if anybody’s been reported to, you know, the better business bureau, or their complaints or bad reviews, those kinds of things. But often we’re so excited to get work, you know, if it’s the first project or, you know, whatever, sometimes we skip that step… Kristen Driscoll: And honestly, I think that’s appropriate if you’re just starting out. If you’re just starting out, I would say, don’t be so precious. Keep your morals like don’t work with anything sleazy that you can’t feel okay about working with but all your clients aren’t going to be winners. I mean, they’re just not. You do it’s more important to get your reps in than to get this, you know, pristine, wonderful, Perfect Fit client. There’s very few Perfect Fit clients. So, you know, do what you got to do to stay in your own integrity. But do expect like you’re going to kiss some frogs and you’re just part of the process of doing it. Yeah, and I know that going in. Rob Marsh: Do you use AI tools at all in your in your processes? Kristen Driscoll: I do. I use it to research. I use it to, like, compile reviews that I think, like that, stuff like that, I find it’s really helpful to scan reviews and pull up certain themes. But one thing I you do have to be careful about, it’s becoming so easy just to dump like reviews into the machine, like, keep reading it. Keep actually reading the information you’re you know, don’t use it as a tool, but I wouldn’t hand everything over blindly and take yourself out of the process. I think that’s a little bit of a slippery slope that I think we could get on. Rob Marsh: Yeah, that’s actually really interesting, because I do think a lot of copywriters are turning over big chunks of the research process to AI, especially the analysis itself, and while it certainly can help you identify trends and things across large data sets, I just saw, in fact, I think it was this morning, a study about the impact of AI tools on. Of reading and learning, and when we outsource that, we actually don’t, we don’t absorb any of that information. So, you know, if you’re trying to be an expert in wellness, you I suppose you could be an expert in wellness, AI, but that’s a very different thing than, you know, being an expert in the the niche itself. Kristen Driscoll: Yeah, yeah. So that’s my caution, is to don’t get don’t let your own skills get rusty, like read the stuff yourself, and also have ai do it. I think that’s really the sweet spot. Going through the exercises manually, doing your own work, getting that to sink into your skull and also see what AI comes up with that you might have missed. Rob Marsh: Yeah, what are you most excited about moving forward, either with your business, with the wellness industry, something that you’re working on or building? Kristen Driscoll: I’ve been kind of business coaching, a little bit more than just straight up, copy writing, and that’s exciting to me, because I like looking at the bigger, how it all kind of fits in together. Yeah, and helping people get back to really what made them excited about their brands in the first place, so that, so that I’m excited about, um, yeah, I’m excited. I’ve also been really working on, you know what I was saying earlier, like we can be the best in this time of so much change and so much rapidly shifting between AI, between, like, World Politics, like, it just seems like there’s like a lot right now going back to that health and wellness of keeping yourself as well slow, You know, well rested, well exercised, a lot of nutrition, using everything I know from health and wellness and working in health and wellness to stay really grounded. As you know, we’re kind of riding this wave right now. Rob Marsh: Yeah, that feels like great advice for everybody, whether you’re in the wellness industry or not. Kristen Driscoll: I think we could all be reminded to keep ourselves level. Rob Marsh: Exactly. Kristen, if somebody wants to connect with you, you know, follow you find out more about what you do. Where should they go? Kristen Driscoll: Probably, LinkedIn is probably the best place. Or you can email me at describe Inc is my email address. You feel free to shoot me an email or catch me on LinkedIn is probably the two best spots. Rob Marsh: Amazing. Well, this has been fun conversation. I love writing in you know? I mean, I’m particular just like supplements and that kind of stuff. But this industry is, just like I said earlier, there’s a ton of opportunity here. It’s super fun because there’s just so many good stories, whether it’s the founder or brand story, whether it’s ingredient stories, whether it’s customer success stories. It’s just there’s so much good happening in that industry. So yeah, maybe somebody will connect with you, but hopefully we’ll have a bunch of other health and wellness writers that are turned on by this episode. Kristen Driscoll: Absolutely. Thank you so much, Rob. I really appreciate you taking the time to chat today. Rob Marsh: Thanks to Kristen Driscoll for sharing her thoughts about writing in the health and wellness niche. I’ve linked to Kristen’s linkedin in the show notes in case you want to connect with her. Early on we mentioned that changing demographics, the aging of the world’s population, and growing awareness of wellness trends is creating all kinds of new opportunities in the health and wellness industry. It’s a niche that is growing in spite of the up and down economy and will continue to grow for the next decade or two. There are plenty of clients who need copywriters and more entering the industry all the time. I want to mention again that if you want your copy reviewed by someone who can give you expert advice on how to make it better, jump into The Copywriter Underground now and let me see your latest project. You can learn more about the Underground at thecopywriterclub.com/tcu-2.