The Copywriter Club Podcast

What’s the big deal about style in copy anyway? We invited Style Consultant and copywriter Tamara Glick to join us for the 142nd episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast to get to the bottom of that question. We covered a lot of ground in this one, but unfortunately we forgot to ask Tamara about joining a biker gang—even though we teased it in the intro. However, we think this episode makes up for that mistake because it’s our first interview to include the word, “huge-mungous.” Here's what we covered with Tamara: •  how she went from working as a fashion consultant to writing copy •  what it means to be a style consultant •  the importance of a personal brand and showing that to the world •  what she learned working closely with other creative in an ad agency •  what it took to transition full time to copywriting •  what she did once she decided to quit a full time job and make a living writing copy •  what she did to line up projects and find clients •  the changes she made when she went through the Copywriter Accelerator •  the packages, prices and other things she offers in her business today •  how she’s investing in her business today •  mindset and how she gets out of her own way •  her advice to others who aren’t as outgoing and energetic as she is To hear this episode, you’ve got to click the play button below or download it to your favorite podcast app. Prefer to read? Scroll down for a full transcript.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: The Copywriter Accelerator The Copywriter Think Tank Soho House Agnes Kowalski Tamara’s website Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Intro: Content (for now) Outro: Gravity   Full Transcript: Rob:   This podcast is sponsored by The Copywriter Underground. Kira:   It's our new membership designed for you to help you attract more clients and hit 10K a month consistently. Rob:   For more information or to sign up, go to thecopywriterunderground.com. Kira:   What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That's what Rob and I do every week at The Copywriter Club Podcast. Rob:   You're invited to join the club for episode 142 as we chat with copywriter Tamara Glick about leaving the safety of a job and going freelance full-time, the role that fashion and style play in her business today, what she's doing today to invest in her business, and whether it's true that she's a member of a biker gang. Kira:   Biker gang, what? Rob:   Hey, Tamara. Kira:   I feel like we're teasing that, but I want to know right now. So welcome. I know you and I have chatted about this for a while and getting you on the show, because definitely you have been through a lot of transitions in your own business that we want to talk about. But before we do, let's just dig into how you ended up as a copywriter. Tamara:        Sure, hi guys. This is so exciting for me. How I ended up as a copywriter is kind of a twisted, checkered story. I actually started my career in advertising, but on the business side. Originally I would be the person who was going between the clients and the creative teams and briefing a creative team from what I'd been given from a client, and then allowing the creative team to do their magical work, and then coming back and working through that again with the client, and back and forth and back and forth. I would be that person who would sit with the creatives right beside them kind of hanging over their cubicles and saying, ‘What you doing? Can I help? What can I do?’ So I really learned a ton from hanging out with my creative teams and appreciating the processes that they would go through, but I was working more on the business side. Simultaneously, I was also building a business as a personal stylist. So I became a trained image consultant and built a business helping people with essentially self-expression. So that came in terms of the clothing that they would wear or the words that they would use on their resumes or their LinkedIn profiles or on their business's websites if they were growing their own businesses. I had quite a few clients when I moved into image consulting full-time for whom I did that kind of messaging work. But I never really considered it to be ‘copywriting’. I've got my air quotes going. Then as my business started to evolve, we're talking 13 years down the line, a few of my digital copywriter friends approached me and said, ‘We could really use your help on some overflow. Did you know that you're a copywriter? We don't really understand why you're not doing that.’ I said, ‘What do you mean I'm a copywriter?’ They're like, ‘Well, can you go back and explain your story again?’ I thought, ‘Oh. Oh that's what you meant.’ So essentially, I've been helping people to tell their stories for the entirety of my career just in different types of ways. I was really ready to do it in a more concentrated sense. So taking all of my different sorts of backgrounds, from agency side to client side to retail and fashion and service and putting it all together into my content and copywriting business. Rob:   Okay, so before we get into the copywriting stuff, I want to talk a little bit about you being a style consultant and what that involves. Talk about it. Tell us. If you saw me on the street and you saw my style, how would you fix me? Kira:   Can we have a makeover episode where we fix Rob up? Rob:   That'd be- Tamara:        Makeover, makeover. Rob:   I could definitely use it for sure. Tamara:        Yeah. Oh no, the sneakers are a signature style, Rob, and I think you need to keep that. Rob:   I have some pretty sweet bacon socks as well, so yeah there's that. Tamara:        Nice. Kira:   Oh my gosh. Tamara:        And the eggs, don't forget the eggs. So a style consultant, the way that I approach that world is, again, it's to help people express themselves effectively so that what people see on the outside is essentially how they feel about themselves on the inside in their best day, right? So a lot of us will fall back on a uniform that's easy. So maybe it's jeans and a T-shirt, because we don't really know what else to put on our bodies. Or maybe it is yoga pants, because one day we're actually going to go to yoga, or we don't need to wear pants, because we work at home, so we just wear shirts and we do the entrepreneurial mullet. Sooner or later, we kind of lose a sense of ourselves when we look in the mirror and don't really relate to what we see. So being a style consultant to me is a lot about helping you to relate to the person that you see in the mirror, so that when you look at yourself, you're really happy with what you see. When other people look at you, they have a sense of who you are. So what I loved seeing initially, I've known you guys for over a year now, and some of the first pictures that I saw of you were you sitting together on a couch. I don't know if those were intentionally branded photos for your personalities, but what I really liked about it was how individual you each were. You reflected your own personalities in a way where I knew that if I was going to talk to Rob, I'd get somebody who is fairly buttoned up, but at the same time, comfortable, relaxed, and confident in what he knows and who he is. When I looked at you, Kira, I saw a person who was equally comfortable and confident, but also colorful and a little bit more expressive of her individuality. That's just like how you are in both your work and in person. So I loved seeing that you were able to figure that out for yourselves visually as well as you can when you're writing. Kira:   I love that. So because we're going down the rabbit hole, how important is style for other copywriters, in terms of their photos and showing up to events, and even what they wear day-to-day, which I have confessed I do wear the same outfit most days, but I know how to dress up when I'm going out, because I think it's easy for us to say we're all about the words, and style and fashion doesn't matter in our business. Tamara:        I think that coming from... I'll back up a little bit. My image consulting business started because while I was taking my MBA, I was looking to apply for work in advertising. That is not one of the two typical flavors of Kool-Aid that you get in an MBA course of study. The flavors are either purple, which would be finance, or orange, which would be consulting. So I was going for this tutti-frutti flavor that nobody really understood. So when I would ask, ‘What should I do to get ready for an interview in this kind of environment? What should I wear? How do I network in an agency setting?’ I got some really poor advice for agency people, awesome advice for corporate people. That was my first real understanding that my love of fashion and beautiful things was not just novelty. It was a practice of identity. So I did go to a mock interview where I wore, I will never forget it, I wore a black skirt suit that I bought from the store that I had been managing prior to getting into my MBA. It was very cool at the time. It was a skirt suit with a long jacket that had a zipper all the way up. It was in the late '90s, early naught, and a top that went right up to my neck, and a French twist, and pearl stud earrings, and pantyhose. Rob:   Wow. Tamara:        Yes. Rob:   Knock the doors down. Yeah. Tamara:        Whew. It was something. I met up with my mentor, and she took one look at me and said, ‘What the heck is this?’ I thought, ‘Oh my gosh, thank you. Stick a fork in me. I'm done. I could do this to a bar mitzvah, but I can't wear this every day.

Writing quizzes is pretty hot right now. So we asked entrepreneur and Quiz expert, Josh Haynam to join us to share everything he knows about quizzes for the 141st episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. In this episode Kira and Rob asked all their questions about what copywriters need to know before creating great quizzes. Here’s what we covered: •  the story of how Josh and his partner built a business on quizzes •  some of the struggles he faced in starting his own company •  the moment Josh and others knew things were going to work •  why quizzes are such powerful tools for engaging your audience •  how quizzes can change the person who is taking it •  what the best quizzes have in common and why they work •  examples of people and companies that are doing quizzes right •  best practices for following up your quiz to engage your audience •  the tools Interact has created to help writers create a quiz •  the mistakes people make when creating quizzes •  what his ridiculous daily schedule looks like •  what he does to meditate for an hour and a half *really* We also asked Josh about how Interact got traction—the content strategy they followed as they grew, how he listens to customers to figure out what’s next, and what the future holds for Interact. To hear it all, click the play button below, download the episode to your podcast player, or scroll down read a full transcript.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Interact  

Thinking about joining a membership community for copywriters? This episode may help you make the decision to jump. For the 140th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, Kira and Rob talk about The Copywriter Underground—what it includes and what you can expect when you join. And so it just isn’t us talking about a thing we made, we asked six members to join us and share their experience. The result is an episode that is a bit longer than what we usually share, but it was interesting to hear some of the things Underground members shared about their experience. Here’s what we covered: •  what has surprised us the most since launching The Underground •  what The Copywriter Underground includes (there’s a lot) •  how The Underground is going to change this July 1st—important if you’ve been thinking of trying it out •  how The Underground has helped members like Amy Jones, Derek Hambrick, Mladden Stojanović, Renae Rockwell, Emily Zoscak, and Natalie Smithson Like we said, this one is different. It's not a full-on sales pitch, but it is all about this community that we love. To hear more about it, click the play button below, or download the episode to your podcast player. Or to read the transcript, simply scroll down.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: David Garfinkel Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Intro: Content (for now) Outro: Gravity   Full Transcript: Rob:   This podcast is sponsored by The Copywriter Underground. Kira:   It's our new membership, designed for you, to help you attract more clients and hit 10k a month, consistently. Rob:   For more information or to sign up, go to thecopywriterunderground.com. Kira:   Hey Rob. Rob:   Hey Kira, how's it going? Kira:   It's great. It's great. Rob:   We do not have an intro prepared for this episode, because we don't have a guest today. Well, we actually have six guests today, but not, this is a different kind of episode. We've never really done this before, and I think we were talking the other day about The Underground and we thought, you know, a lot of people ask us about what's going on in The Underground or what it is and they have questions. And so we thought, let's just go really deep on what's in The Underground, what we do there, and ask some of our members of The Underground what their experience is like, just so that people have a really good idea of what it is and how it can help somebody in their copywriting journey. Kira:   Yeah. So this is fun, because you'll actually hear the voices of the members. And we lovingly call them our moles. I don't know who started that, we think it was Justin Blackman, who coined the term. But our members seem to be very happy being called moles. So we will hear their voices as they talk through their experience in The Underground, which we haven't really shared before. And then Rob and I will just talk through what we've learned from running The Underground since September, right? Is that when we launched it? Rob:   Yeah, we launched it in September and it's been going now for seven or eight months. It's grown to almost 200 people. And we're actually going to close the doors to new members here in the near future, we've got a few weeks before that happens. But we'll talk a little bit about that as well, and the change behind that. So Kira, you know, let's, what's your experience been in The Underground so far? Like what has surprised you, what were you expecting and how has it turned out maybe differently or even better than what you expected? Kira:   Yeah. So I think so far what has surprised me the most is that the community aspect is more important than anything else. Then the trainings we create, live trainings in there, there's a ton of great templates and resources and scripts. Especially like, we add stuff from our own businesses that we use, and that's all been great, and the members use that. But I guess I have been surprised at how many members really are sticking around and growing their businesses and gaining confidence from each other and the community aspect. Which is great, because that's what a membership is all about. But until you start it and see it unfold, you don't really know what the members will take out of it, and you don't know if a community is going to work or not if people will connect. There are parts of that you can control and help, but also part of that is just the people you're attracting, and if it's working or not. So I'd say that probably surprised me the most. What about you, Rob? Rob:   Yeah, I agree. And I think I've been surprised as well as to how strong that community is. It feels a lot like The Copywriter Club when we first started out. Kira:   Yeah. Rob:   With just a couple hundred members, and the camaraderie, the people supporting each other and helping, you know, with questions and copy reviews and holding each other accountable. In fact we tried to structure some of the things that we started creating for The Underground to help support that. So we added things like accountability groups and copy review groups and those kinds of things. The other thing that really surprised me, I knew that it was going to be good, but just the excitement that happens every time we send out a newsletter or that we have a live training, the reactions to that, it's just overwhelmingly positive. And that's actually been really gratifying, because we knew we had some really good things to share, but knowing that people are actually taking that and using it in their business in smart ways is just fun to see, you know, as people use the things that we're sharing to grow and to do more than what we even thought people would use it for. Kira:   Yeah, and that makes me think of, you know, what else has surprised me is just how the members are willing to share their own resources. So forget about what we share in there, you know, month to month. But I just have seen so many members support each other with copy feedback or just like, ‘Hey, does anybody have a process for this? Or a template for this? Or an example of this?’ And people ask and then people show up and provide it, because I think there's this element of trust in the group from our core members, from new members that step in, and there's just a really good tone of sharing and openness, and again it's something that we can try to create from the beginning but I think it's just, we've got the right people in there with the right attitude, so again it's like this willingness to share and support each other. Which, that's just, that's the place you want to be, right? Rob:   Yeah. Absolutely. So maybe we should just talk through like, all of the things that are in there so people get an understanding of what we're talking about here, and then ask a few members what they think and what their experience has been. Kira:   Yeah, so this is funny because I feel like you and I talk about this a lot. There is a lot in The Underground and I think our concern sometimes is that maybe there's too much, right? You don't want to overwhelm anyone that's in there. But we will run through what's currently in there, and you can kind of pick and choose what is helpful to you. So what I love, and I know you love, Rob, is the monthly newsletter that we mail to everyone's home. And it's something that I love, when I receive it, even though, you know, we know what it says. We're working on it together. And you put in so much work into those. But every time I see it, you know, in my mailbox or on my stairs I get so excited. Even today, I just got mine for this month, all about proposals and what you should include in your proposal. So we do send that monthly newsletter that covers different topics and it's really meaty, and I'd say that's very useful. So I don't know if you want to talk more about like, the topics that we've included so far. If you want to get into the weeds there. Rob:   We've covered a lot of different things, you know, when we launched The Underground we said that it was going to focused on marketing, on copywriting, and on mindset. And we've touched on all of those things at different times with the newsletter, so we have, you know, we've talked really in depth about adding proof to your copy. And you know, how do you demonstrate that what you're saying is true. We've talked, like you just mentioned the latest one all about proposals. And a whole bunch of ideas for improving your proposals, well beyond what I think most people send out. And we even shared some of our, some of the things that we did, we used to do in our businesses, and the bad things that we did with our proposals when we first started out. And what we've done to change our own proposals. And then lots of ideas for, you know, how other people can improve them, even beyond some of the things that we do. We've talked about mindset issues, like self care and how do you give yourself time off, and how do you take care of yourself? We've talked about marketing your business and, you know, how better ways for getting out in front of your clients. So it's really, it seems like a really cool tool, and it's one of the things that we get the most feedback about, certainly in the group every time an issue hits peoples' mailboxes. They start sharing photos of them reading the newsletter in cafes or sitting there with their pets or, Derek Hambrick even mentioned at one point that his reading the newsletter in a bar in Germany got him a free drink. And we're still waiting to hear the whole story on that. So, but yeah. It's kind of fun. And then you mentioned the community, we have a private Facebook group for members only of The Underground, and it is a really cool group. You know, there's just so much going on in there, and there's the opportunity there to share and to learn and to grow and get to know each other has been awesome.

Thinking about writing a book? Author and book coach Jennie Nash is our guest for the 139th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. Although we’ve talked about writing a book on the podcast before, Rob and Kira wanted to go even deeper on the topic, as well as learn what it means to be a book coach. We learned a lot from the discussion. Here’s what we covered: •  how she became a book coach and landed book deals for her first 3 clients •  the embarrassingly easy process of writing her own first book •  where creativity and book ideas come from •  when someone should consider working with a book coach •  where writers go wrong in the book writing process •  the three critical motivations that drive people to write books •  the she turned book coaching into a thriving business •  whether copywriters should have a book to support their businesses •  the place ego plays in writing a book •  how she prices her coaching packages and what they include •  the importance of structure and where you can find them If you've even considered writing a book, you should listen to what Jennie has to share. Click the play button below, download the episode to your favorite podcast app, or scroll down to read a full transcript.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: The Creative Habit by Twila Tharp Jenny’s website Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Intro: Content (for now) Outro: Gravity   Full Transcript: Rob:   This podcast is sponsored by The Copywriter Underground. Kira:   It's our new membership designed for you, to help you attract more clients and hit 10K a month, consistently. Rob:   For more information or to sign up, go to thecopywriterunderground.com. What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes and their habits, then steal an idea or two, to inspire your own work. That's what Kira and I do, every week, at The Copywriter Club Podcast. Kira:   You're invited to join the club for episode 139, as we chat with book coach, Jennie Nash, about writing and publishing a book, working in the publishing industry, what her writing process looks like, and how we can avoid the mistakes authors usually make when sitting down to write a book. Welcome Jennie. Rob:   Hey, Jennie. Jennie:          Hey, thanks for having me. Kira:   Yeah, great to have you here. So, let's kick this off with your story, how did you end up as a book coach? Jennie:          Well, I guess we should start out by saying what a book coach is, because a lot of people have never heard that term. Rob:   That's the question, what is a book coach? Jennie:          And I may have made it up, I don't know. I mean, I'm not claiming to have started the internet kind of thing. But, lots of people have been using this term, but the way I distinguish it, is that, an editor usually works on a piece of writing after that piece of writing is finished, in order to move it forward and make it better. And a book coach helps a writer while they're writing. So, the way I describe it is, it's like a personal trainer for your writing life. And a book coach is focused on book writing. So, that's what a book coach is. And I stumbled into this career after a career as an author. I had published seven books in two genres, mostly with big five publishers. And I was teaching at the UCLA writers program, which is actually the largest adult focused writing program in the country. And what I realized when I began teaching, I taught there for 12 years, and I realized that I was teaching systems. And that, nobody else around me was teaching systems. And it began to be quite obvious that I was doing something different. And I didn't know I was doing that, it just was a thing that I naturally did. And as a result of that practice, I guess, I would call it, I was approached by another instructor, who is Lisa Cron, who's the author of Wired for Story and Story Genius. And Lisa is a brilliant story analyst and she was teaching in the program as well and wanted to write a book about her thoughts and philosophies and ideas about story. But, she didn't know how, she had never written a book. And so, she recognized that I had the system's way of thinking and asked if I would coach her. And I didn't, at the time, know how to do that, or what that would look like or anything, but I said yes. And together, we found our way, and the result was the sale of that two book deal for her. And my next client in a different genre, sold his book to Simon and Schuster, his memoir to Simon and Schuster. So, the first three projects I worked on, ended up in big five book deals. So, I realized I was on to something, and began to do it full time. Rob:   That is awesome. So, I'm really curious about the systems that you use. But before we talk about that, tell us about the first book that you wrote. And was it easy? What was the struggle like? How did you pitch it to a publisher and actually get published? Jennie:          Yeah, I always hesitate to tell the story because it was easy, and that's not the experience for most people, and I recognize that I'm acutely aware of that. But, in my case, I was working for a New York City magazine, a slick city magazine called New York Woman. This was in the 80s. And it was owned by American Express Publishing, which at the time, owned Food and Wine and Architectural Digest. So, very high end, beautifully produced magazines. And I was the lowest rung on the editorial ladder. And the people that I was working with on staff there were just fantastically talented writers. Wendy Wasserstein wrote for us, Susannah Grant, who went on to write the movie. Erin Brockovich wrote for us, our editor in chief, Betsy Carter, had been the first and highest women editor at Newsweek. Just this embarrassment of riches of talent and I was the very bottom rung on the editorial ladder. And I ended up getting the opportunity to write an essay, a one-page essay in the magazine about... I was getting married, and I wrote this piece about my engagement. And as a result of this 800-word, one-page piece, one of the agents for one of our writers approached me and said, ‘Do you want to write a book about that?’ And I was 24, and I said yes. And I wrote that book and she sold it to Crown, and it was excerpted in Cosmo and Brides and that was that. So, it was embarrassingly easy. Kira:   So, we have to know, what did you say in that 800-word essay about your engagement? Jennie:          Well, what's so funny about it is, for your audience, I think, will really appreciate this. I'm 55 years old, so I wrote that essay when I was maybe 23, I don't know, a long time ago. And I can still remember the first line of that essay, it's etched into my head. And I think it just goes to show the power of a great sentence, great couple of words strung together. So, the sentence was this, ‘I'm about to be married and all I can think about is death.’ Rob:   What? Kira:   That is awesome. I love that. Jennie:          It was this piece about how really loving makes you totally vulnerable, and how horrible it is. And how making a commitment to somebody, just comes baked in with this terror. So, it was this funny piece about getting married, that was not a normal thing you might see. And I'm sure that, that's... It was just that sentiment and that voice and that difference that caught the agent's eye. But yes, I think it might be the best sentence I ever wrote. Kira:   That's a powerful sentence. So, let's go down this rabbit hole for a little bit and talk about love. Because, I feel the same way about love. So, how have you resolved that feeling and that sentence about love, over the past few decades? How do you feel today about love? Jennie:          Well, it's interesting you should ask this, I just celebrated my 30th wedding anniversary last week, and that feeling has absolutely not diminished. I think, it's in fact, gotten worse. And my husband and I were reflecting on that day, it was kind of sick, but, we were reflecting like, the only way out of this at this point is somebody dies. I mean, that's true with all of us with life. But, with this relationship and this love and it's just been a pillar of our lives and a great accomplishment, we both came from families that were very broken. And so, yeah, it has not diminished. And I think that, juxtaposition of love and death and joy and despair, it's hard to ignore, at least for me. And so, it's shocking when I think about the number of times that my husband has died in my head. I've contemplated his not being here. Kira:   Yeah. Okay, so, I want to hijack this whole conversation and just talk about love with you, but I know Rob would probably not like that. I feel like that they just say- Rob:   I mean, my game. I don't have feelings. Kira:   Yeah. So, we should definitely talk about this over a glass of wine sometime, Jennie. But, let's go back to systems and what you said about teaching systems that you didn't realize at the time, that, that's what you were doing. Can you talk a little bit more about what you mean by that? I couldn't completely picture the systems that you were talking about. Jennie:          Yeah, it's been very exciting to me the past however many years of getting more conscious and aware of the systems that govern the creative process. So, I think in our culture, we tend to think of creativity often as this thing that bubbles up from within you, or, is imposed from outside this idea of the genius, right? The genius in the attic that just comes up with a great idea and unleashes it upon the world. So, that's coming up from inside you. Or, the idea that it's imposed upon you in the way of a muse, or somehow looking for inspiration from outside. And I have found that,

Do you need better packages to offer your clients? Prerna and Mayank Malik join us for the 138th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast to share what they know about packages. This is something a lot of copywriters struggle with, so Kira and Rob asked Prerna and Mayank about the best ways to think about and structure packages. Here’s what we covered: •  what has changed in their business over the past two years •  their failure to reach a lofty revenue goal (and why it was still a success) •  the key team players they lean on for support •  how they create and refine the packages they offer their clients •  the IMAGE framework they use when they come up with a new product •  an example of how the use the framework to create packages •  why they’re so passionate about packages (and passion is definitely the right word) •  the mistakes copywriters make when creating a package •  why knowing your audience is the key to creating a good package •  how the packages fit together in their business •  how to get started creating a package for your business •  how to make your existing package more profitable •  their approach to launches and how they make sure the launch goes well •  the niches and businesses that packages won’t work for •  how they manage their days to finish work by 3:00 each day •  what to do before you decide to work with your spouse As usual, this is a good one. Click the play button below or download this episode to your podcast app. If you’d rather read, scroll down for a full transcript.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Prerna’s First TCC Interview The Copywriter Think Tank Profits on Tap Fully Loaded Launch Bushra Azhar Prerna’s website Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Intro: Content (for now) Outro: Gravity   Full Transcript: Transcript to come...

Copywriter and entrepreneur, Austin Mullins, is our guest for the 137th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. We’ve known Austin for quite a while now and the more we heard him talk about his sales process, the more we knew we needed to have him share his process with the club. We covered a lot of ground—especially about sales processes—in this one, here’s a good list of most of what we talked about: •  how Austin became a copywriter in high school •  why he thinks it was a mistake (for him) to attend college •  what he did to find good clients beyond Upwork •  the #1 thing he did to grow his business—it has to do with sales •  why he chose the niche he is in and how it changed his business •  how he split his time between three “jobs” at the same time •  his “ideal” client acquisition process and selling on the phone •  what to do to encourage referrals or testimonials •  the mistakes copywriters make on sales calls (and how to fix them) •  what it means to be a growth strategist—and how to “do” strategy •  what his process for working with content clients looks like •  an in-depth review of what the sales process should look like •  how to teach yourself to “sell” To hear this one—and if you struggle with sales you definitely want to hear this one, click the play button below or download the episode to your podcast app. Readers scroll down for a full transcript.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: The Copywriter Accelerator The Copywriter Think Tank Danny Marguiles Joel Klettke SPIN Selling Austin’s website Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Intro: Content (for now) Outro: Gravity   Full Transcript: Rob:   This podcast is sponsored by The Copywriter Underground. Kira:   It's our new membership designed for you to help you attract more clients and hit 10k a month consistently. Rob:   For more information or to sign up, go to thecopywriterunderground.com. What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That's what Kira and I do every week at The Copywriter Club Podcast. Kira:   You're invited to join the club for episode 137 as we chat with copywriter Austin Mullins about what he does as a growth strategist for B2B SaaS companies, how he attracts and closes leads, what it's like to build an agency, and the challenges of investing his time in more than one business at once. Welcome, Austin. Rob:   Hey, Austin. Austin:           Thanks for having me, guys. Longtime fan of the podcast, so excited to be here. Kira:   Great to have you here, Austin. As one of our former Accelerator members and now a Think Tank member. It's about time we had you on the show, so let's start with your story. How did you end up as a copywriter and growth strategist? Austin:           Yeah. I started a bit early, so I first started doing a little bit of copywriting work in high school, actually. Stumbled across Upwork, which I know is often a dirty word around these parts but stumbled upon there and was interested in this freelancing thing. I had always been good at academic writing but didn't particularly enjoy it, but stumbled across this term, copywriting and started to do some really low-level work like helping people write reviews and such at first, and then gradually worked my way up to being a generalist copywriter, who would write blog content for all sorts of businesses, brochures, a little bit of web copy in there but not web copy done the right way with lots of customer research. Then did that for a while. Made the mistake of letting my family convince me I should go to college, and so, business dropped off. Then when I tried to get back into it, things didn't pick up quite as quickly as I thought they would, so I ended up telling myself, ‘Okay, I need to learn sales. I'm not good enough at closing new business.’ I went in-house at an agency as a sales guy, worked my way up the ranks there and then more recently, have departed that agency and I'm now working totally on my agency, which is focused on content marketing and SEO, as you mentioned, for B2B SaaS companies. Rob:   Okay, so I want to ask about the mistake of going to college. This is something that a lot of people don't talk about and an interesting phrasing. Obviously, it's not a mistake for everybody, but why was it a mistake for you? What was it about that experience that was wrong and what has happened since you left? Austin:           Yeah, absolutely. One reason it was a mistake is that I had a little bit of momentum. I was not earning a lot of money as a copywriter but enough to get by at the time, and so, allocating that much of my time to something else that wasn't really what I wanted to do but out of obligation to someone else, was not a great idea. It was understandable at the time but in hindsight, it wasn't a great idea. The other thing was, I was studying the wrong thing. I've always been interested in, how do you persuade people to do things, human psychology. I probably should have been a behavioral economics major or a psychology major and instead, I was there studying finance, which was not really where I wanted to go. I think even if I had finished, I would have gone right back to marketing, and so, it would have been a moot point. Kira:   Okay, cool. I love the way that you laid out the path and you started on Upwork. How old were you when you started on Upwork? Austin:           I believe I was 17, which I probably had to forge the forms on how to even join because I don't think I was allowed to be doing contract work yet, but. Kira:   Interesting and we have to burst you. Okay, so for people who are on Upwork because I agree, it's sort of this dirty word but it's not and it works really well for some people and gives a lot of people their start in copywriting. For a copywriter who's on Upwork right now, what advice would you give them to grow beyond Upwork? What are some steps they could take? Austin:           Yeah, absolutely and you also had a wonderful guest on, Danny Margulies, who gave some great advice on how to make that channel actually work for you but outside of that, there's a lot you can do. I think one of the first steps for a lot of people is getting their own website, something that's their own piece of media, that talks about the work that they're doing, can display the work they're doing and gives them the opportunity to have somewhere else to send someone other than just an Upwork profile or something like that. That's a really important step and something you can work on over time. I think definitely getting involved in communities and meeting other copywriters and talking about where are they getting work. Then also talking to people outside of a platform like that even whether it's in person, at networking events, whether it's online and you've found a niche you're interested in and you're talking back and forth with people on social media. All that sort of stuff is going to eventually lead to, if you're talking about your area of expertise, people are going to want to work with you at some point, and so, you don't have to drive them onto a platform like that. You can just start to engage with them outside of those platforms and build that up over time. Kira:   What did you learn from your time as a generalist copywriter, which is where a lot of us start and what are some lessons that you learned from that time? Austin:           Absolutely. I learned how to research really well. I ended up writing some really strange stuff sometimes. An example I like to use is, I once wrote for a company in Adelaide, Australia, that makes overland conveyor belts for Mines. Like 20 mile long conveyor belts to haul aluminum and coal and so on. I knew absolutely nothing about those ahead of time, so I had to go learn about how do they make these belts, what's special about them versus the two major competitors they have and write something that was a pretty big deal to them because so few people control that market share and this was a brochure that was going to be sent to those 12 decision makers that control the rest of the market. So really high stakes stuff but having to learn, how can I speak in the voice and sound informed on something that I didn't really know anything about ahead of time and that's served me well beyond that. Rob:   Austin, as you moved yourself off of Upwork and started working with clients on your own, what did those first couple of clients look like? How did you find them and what did you do to start that engagement? Austin:           Some of them ended up approaching me because of work I had done and so you get referrals over time, which has continued to be a really major channel and where probably the highest quality leads come from, the easiest to close, certainly. So, that was a real advantage. Then also, the other thing, aside from direct referrals there are networking with other writers, and they will send up the bat signal when it's something that they know you're focused on and know you're specialized in. I've had that done for me. I also do that for other people and that can be really powerful because their word generally carries some weight with the people that they're interacting with and might bring you in on. Kira:   I would love to know about what really helped you get into a groove. I mean, again, you laid out your path but what in there really helped you grow your business or feel like you really nailed it and had that clarity? I'm guessing I know what it is but I'd like to hear it from you. Austin:           I mean, there were a number of things.

Nikita Morell is our guest for the 136th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. We’ve known Nikita for a while now and given the success she’s had, it's a shame we haven’t had her on the podcast before now. Nikita has found a lot of success by niching her business and delivering exactly what her ideal clients need. We talked to her about: •  how she went from selling bread to selling ads to writing copy •  her accidental sales pitch that saved her sales job •  how a job in marketing taught her skills that she uses as a copywriter •  why she chose her niche—working only with architects and the impact on her biz •  how she changed her business to accommodate having a baby •  what she does to find clients—she’s a “prospecting nerd” •  what she did to raise her rates adding thousands of dollars to every project •  how she thinks about her brand and why she takes her brand seriously •  the marketing pieces she is using in her prospecting process •  how she makes her cold emails feel like warm emails •  this mistakes she’s made along the way—it hasn’t all been smooth sailing •  what she does to get a lot of “busy work” done and still avoid burnout •  the things she has done that have made the biggest difference in her business We also asked Nikita about working with subcontractors, creating a “pretty” framework to show how her process works and why she spends a lot of time with a Japanese floor loom. Nikita shares a lot of advice worth listening to in this episode. To hear it, click the play button below or find it on your favorite podcast app. Readers can scroll down for a full transcript.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Seth Godin The Copywriter Think Tank Mel Abraham Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Intro: Content (for now) Outro: Gravity   Full Transcript: Rob:   This podcast is sponsored by The Copywriter Underground. Kira:   It's our new membership, designed for you, to help you attract more clients, and hit 10k a month, consistently. Rob:   For more information, or to sign up, go to thecopywriterunderground.com. Kira:   What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes, and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That's what Rob and I do every week at The Copywriter Club Podcast. Rob:   You're invited to join the club for episode 136, as we chat with copywriter Nikita Morell about helping architects with copy and marketing strategy, her approach to choosing a niche and then narrowing it even further, why she created a framework for her process, and the role weaving plays in her life and business. Kira:   Welcome Nikita. Rob:   Hey Nikita. Nikita:            Thank you, hi. Kira:   Yeah, we're excited to have you here. You are one of our members of our Think Tank, so we've been able to witness your business growth, and we're really excited to share what's working, because so much is working for you in your business. So let's just kick this off with your story. Kira:   How did you end up as a copywriter? Nikita:            So, I started in corporate marketing for L'Oreal and George Weston Foods, which is Australia's biggest bread brand, and I quite quickly realized this corporate life just wasn't for me. I think it was just all the layers and I just wasn't that great at taking direction. And it was round about this time I was earning a full time salary, so I was frequenting lots of bars and different restaurants, and after a night out, my friends would come back and comment on the food, or the music, or the cute boy sitting on the bar stool, and I would be looking at the copper lights, or the timber joinery; and I think it was about this time I just became obsessed with everything design related. I signed up to an interior design diploma, and did that as a hobby, and learned how to draft, and draw floor plans, with no intention of becoming an interior designer, just to learn and immerse myself in that world. And, yeah, it was round about this time I thought, you know, there has to be a way to marry marketing and communications with design and architecture. And I still remember the time, I was sitting there reading a commercial architecture magazine, and I though, aha this is it, I just need to work for this one magazine. And so, fast forward six months, I honestly just stalked, politely, stalked this magazine. I rang them pretty much every week, I just said, can I please meet you? Are there any job openings? And didn't get much back, and then I think finally, just they thought, we just need to get this girl in; just meet her and just see what she's about. And I went in, and they said look, we don't have any positions in the editorial team, because I had been doing a lot of writing, I had created my own design blog called Distracted By Design, and writing for some New York based design blogs as well; and they said, there's nothing in the editorial team, there's nothing in the marketing team, all we have is a media executive position. And before she had even time to tell me what the position was about, I said, yup, fine, sign me up, when can I start? So, a month later I went into the job and said, I'm here for the media exec, and they said, yup, you're just sitting over there with the sales team. And I just looked at her and said, oh no no, there must be some sort of mistake, I'm not here for sales. And she said, yeah, that's just a fancy name to what we call sales, and I just went white. I'm brown in color, and I just lost all my color and just thought, I don't know how to sell. I've never, ever, sold anything. And so I sat down, and I think six months I just really sucked at this. I would go in, meet all these furniture designers with the goal of selling ad space in this magazine, and I would meet with furniture designers, and there's tapware, all these different types of amazing people, but I would go in there, just blurt out my sales pitch, be like, do you want to buy anything? Here's some magazine space, here are the costs, thank you, bye. And never, ever, got one sale. Now I had targets to meet, right? So I think they had their eyes on me, and they thought, oh gosh, what have we done? And so I wrote out my resignation later, and I thought, this is just not for me. And so I think this was about nine months in, and I had it in my handbag, and I thought, tomorrow I'm just going to go resign; but I had a meeting booked. And I thought, I'll go to this meeting, who cares, doesn't matter what happens. But I still remember, I walked in and it was this man, and he was a timber. He made this beautiful timber furniture, and I just spoke to him. I just chatted to him for an hour and a half, I asked him questions about how he started, and he took me through his workshop, and I just was blown away by his story. And I just thought, oh, you know what, your story needs to be in our magazine. And without even realizing it, I was obviously selling a solution to his problem, and I was gaining his trust, and I was creating that personal connection. And I didn't even take my magazine out of my bag to, or I didn't even mention the ad space, but I came back to my desk an hour or two later and he said, Nikita, I want to by 12 months of advertising space, and that was my biggest sale. And I thought, okay, I’m just not going to resign today, maybe I'll give it another week. And I guess the rest is history, I think I stayed there for another 18 months, and became their highest revenue earner in the company, and a year after that I just went to an architecture firm, just to get experience on the architecture side, because I'd done the publishing, selling, as a communications manager. And that’s where my copywriting journey began. So I wrote newsletters, and about pages, and bios, for this one big significant architecture company here in Sidney, and I though, you know, if I can help these guys do this, why can't I just help more people? So, I did a course in copywriting and that's where I took the leap of faith and started my own business. Rob:   I love it. There's so many different things here that led up to you being a copywriter, so can we talk a little bit about what you did as a marketing person, the role you had as a marketer, and then of course the stuff you were talking about in sales, how that all added up to copywriting as a career choice? Nikita:            Yeah, so exactly. So marketing, a lot of what I was doing was that consumer insight, so I would go, especially at the bread company, I would go into the grocery store for two days at a time and just watch people shop bread. So I'd see how they scan the shelf, whether they squeezed the loaf or choose the loaf behind, so it was, I guess, watching and observing a lot of, yeah, consumer insights. And with that, learning about brand strategy. So understanding your tone of voice, your brand values, and all those kind of essential marketing foundation components, and then, yeah, as you said, naturally fell into selling, which I learned at the end of the day is just all about trust. It's just getting someone's trust, and then it just makes the sale so much easier. And then those two things combined, I think, it just, copywriting was a natural progression. I mean, now I look back and I'm always drawing upon my sales knowledge, always drawing upon my marketing knowledge. It was almost like the third piece of the puzzle, and it just made sense to combine those two skills into copywriting. And I'm definitely still learning the art and craft of copywriting, but I think having those two things has definitely helped me. Kira:   And can you talk about, timeline wise, when did you go out on your own in your business? Nikita:            So it was about two and a half, nearly three years ago,

Copywriter Andrey Adison is our guest for the 135th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. We recorded this one on Valentine’s Day and are just now getting it in your podcast feed—hopefully it is worth the wait. We asked Dre about his background, what he helps his clients do today, and what he thinks writers will be doing in the future. Here’s what we covered: •  how he went from affiliate marketer to copywriter •  what he learned from affiliate marketing that he applies to his work today •  why he feels like he has a duty to get serious about mindset •  how Dre helps his clients find the core truth they want to share •  his framework for helping his clients build their message and audience •  how he finds his clients and what he charges for his services •  what he’s done to take his business to the next level •  why specialization is important and how it has helped Dre in his business •  what’s not working in his business today •  where he thinks copywriting is headed in the future This is a good one. To hear what Dre has to share, click the play button below or download the episode to your podcast player. And if you like reading, you can scroll down for a full transcript.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Rob’s book The Copywriter Accelerator Andrey’s site Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Intro: Content (for now) Outro: Gravity   Full Transcript: Rob:   This podcast is sponsored by The Copywriter Underground. Kira:   It's our new membership designed for you to help you attract more clients and hit 10K a month consistently. Rob:   For more information or to sign up, go to thecopywriterunderground.com. What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts? Ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes and their habits. Then steal an idea, or two, to inspire your own work? That's what Kira and I do every week at The Copywriter Club Podcast. Kira:   You are invited to join the club for episode 135 as we chat with copywriter Dre Adison about growing his business. The one thing he has done to take his business to the next level, finding and working with clients and the deep dive question he asks his clients to help them get clear on their brand messaging. Kira:   This is a very special episode because it's Valentine's Day, even though when you listen to this, it might be more like Easter-time, but there's going to be a lot of love in this episode. Rob:   Tons of love. Kira:   So welcome Dre. Rob:   Welcome Dre. Dre:    Well thanks for having me. I feel the love already. Kira:   Before we start recording we basically shared our Valentine's Day experience thus far and Rob gives books to his children on Valentine's Day. Which is so ... Rob:   And my wife, not just my kids- Kira:   And your wife. Rob:   My wife and we give to each other. Love for everyone. Kira:   It's so on brand with who you are. I just give my kids a lot of sugar and cavities. Rob:   Which is also on brand. Kira:   Which is also on brand. Dre:    You gift them your own book? Your Brand Story book? Kira:   His autograph. Rob:   I don't think they would read it. I should do that. I should give everyone my own book. Kira:   It's a good way to get it out there. Rob:   Dre, what's your Valentine's tradition? Dre:    I usually go out the next day, my girlfriend she doesn't, she feels like Valentine's Day is so populated, all the restaurants and stuff like that. So normally the day after we go out to eat or we just spend time together. Rob:   So smart. Kira:   You can tell you live in New York City when ... I feel like all New Yorkers say that. It's like yeah we don't actually go out on Valentine’s Day. There's just no space for all these people. Dre:    Too many people. Kira:   Alright, so let's kick this off with your story Dre. How did you end up as a copywriter? Dre:    At first, I feel there were a lot of twists and turns to it, but it first started out with me back in 2012 when I was in ... about to be in my senior year of college. And I just knew that whatever path I was going down, I knew I wanted to be an entrepreneur. I knew I wanted to make a bigger impact. And I got into affiliated marketing, internet marketing. And just really trying to see how could I make money and how I could build a business of my own, and that took me down the path of affiliate marketing. I was in a company where I had to figure out how I could stand out from tens of thousands other affiliates or direct sales. I quickly learned about copywriting, building my own list and Facebook ads and things like that. So I had that foundation throughout the years. But then the thing that shifted for me, where I really wanted to become a copywriter. Because I made a shift from that to being a high-performance coach, a mindset coach. But I wanted to specialize in how do I help people get over this story that are holding them back from sharing their message. So it was always about the messaging. And then I realized that, okay, this is not really my lane. Being a mindset coach, being a high-performance coach is not really my zone. What if I use the skills that I acquired over the years to still help people get their message out there into the world? And that's where I first started getting into how to clarify your core message. And how to really just the messaging, and then I transitioned into just owning the copywriting and saying okay, I already have the messages ready, and creating my own smaller products, I already been doing these things. Now how can I use my expertise, how can I use my gifts and things that I have to help people get their message out there, or clarify it and feel confident, just owning that value and owning their gifts. And copywriting for me was the perfect balance of that mission that I had and aligning that with the gifts that I already had. Rob:   So, can we talk for a minute, before we get into copywriting, about affiliate marketing? I think a lot of us know what affiliate marketing is all about, although maybe we don't do it. It's certainly changed over the last 10 years, how it's done effectively. What are some of the things that you did as an affiliate marketer, Dre, to help people build their businesses, and maybe more importantly, what are the things in addition to copywriting, that you can take away from affiliate marketing that you apply in your business today? Dre:    I think the biggest thing was, like I said, affiliate marketing is almost like a business opportunity in a sense. So the thing that I got from it was, really understanding how do I separate myself? So when I would create a capture page, other people were using the same capture pages, other people were using the same sales letters, so I would do little things. Like, okay now, let me build my own email list instead of using the swiped emails. Then start using my list, and it was at a point where I was emailing my list almost on a daily basis. And when people would opt in, before they went to the offer, I'd create like a sandwich page, and I'd introduce myself and I'd have a video there. And just try to personalize and customize the experience and tailor it into a way where ... if the offer is positioned one specific way, now you try to have your own lane, your own spin on it. To where now, okay, now people are also buying into you. People are also buying into the message that you're sharing, and it's something that's unique. And then you introduce, or almost like you're partnering with that person or that author. Kira:   So, Dre, can you tell us more about your time as a high-performance coach, and why it ended up not being your thing. And then what you pulled away from that experience that you use in your business today? Dre:    So with that ... I wasn't that successful with the mindset, high-performance coach. It was more so ... really it was me creating a lot of content on Facebook and had a few clients. But the reason why I got into it, I guess that's really the thing that drew me into it, stuff like this. When I was doing the affiliate marketing, and then I had my own product, between $7 and $97, but I started to feel unfulfilled. I started to feel like I was just a behind the scenes person, and I knew that I had a bigger message. I wasn't showing up fully. I had a cancer scare. I had a lump that was growing on my neck, and the doctor said, ‘Okay, take these antibiotics, it will go down. Or let's wait a few months and it'll go down,’ and it continued growing. So I went to a surgeon and he said it could be lymphoma. Kira:   Oh my gosh. Dre:    But I thank God it ended up being nothing. He removed the lymph node, the swollen lymph node, he removed it. But I think just that experience, just sitting in the doctor's office ... At that time I was like, 23 years old and I'm just like ... Kira:   Wow. Dre:    I guess it put everything in perspective, of okay ... I feel like I have this bigger message to share. I feel like I have a duty almost, to use my message, to use my gifts, because I can't take life for granted. I can take things for granted. So I realized that I wasn't the only person that was going through things like that, so I think that was the shift that made me realize that okay ... What was the big thing that was holding me back, was mindset. It was like, these things. So I went down this journey, and you know, lots of times you're going down your own journey, you become passionate about helping other people with that. So I wanted to help other people really own their message and really own their gifts and get out their own way. And I felt like the biggest obstacle was the mindset. But I realize that to me, I was passionate about it,

Grumpy Grammarian, Autumn Tompkins, is our guest for the 134th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. Autumn has been a member of the club almost from the beginning. And she’s shared her editing and proofreading advice with anyone who asked. Now we took the chance to ask a few questions about her business. Here’s most of what we talked about: •  how she went from ink slinger to grumpy grammarian •  her business rules that keep her from being miserable •  the difference between copyediting (art) and copywriting (science) •  the impact of spending 7 months in the hospital and how she dealt with it •  how she uses music to inspire what she does—and her copywriting mix tape •  the resources—her personal master class—she’s used to learn copywriting •  living with muscular dystrophy and what she’s learned from it •  the fine line between grumpy and bitchy and the need for lightheartedness •  her editing process and tips for doing your own copy editing •  the 5 mistakes she sees copywriters make over and over •  a few tips for improving transitions in your copy •  her 3 favorite rhetorical devices and why they work in copy •  how she finds clients and what her packages and pricing look like We also asked Autumn about her copy edit school and the 5 components she teaches her students. To get hear everything that Autumn has to say, click the play button below, or download the episode to your favorite podcast app. Prefer reading? Scroll down for a full transcript.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Erika Lyremark Copy Edit School The Grumpy Grammarian's Guide to Copy Editing Autumn’s Website Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Intro: Content (for now) Outro: Gravity   Full Transcript: Rob:   This podcast is sponsored by The Copywriter Underground. Kira:   It's our new membership designed for you to help you attract more clients and hit 10K a month consistently. Rob:   For more information or to sign up, go to thecopywriterunderground.com. Kira:   What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes, and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That's what Rob and I do every week at The Copywriter Club Podcast. Rob:   You're invited to join the club for episode 134 as we chat with author, copy editor, and grumpy grammarian, Autumn Tompkins, about the ins and outs of copy editing, how it's different from copywriting, what she's done to find success in spite of serious life changes, and we'll ask, ‘Why is she so grumpy?’ Kira:   Autumn, welcome. Rob:   Hey, Autumn. Autumn:        Hi. Thank you so much for having me. Kira:   It's great to have you here, Autumn, because we've worked closely on many different projects. You've cleaned up my copy many, many times. You've worked with The Copywriter Club on our newsletter as well, cleaning that up and making Rob and I look a little bit smarter than we actually are. So, it's so wonderful to finally bring you onto the show. Autumn:        Well, I'm so happy to be here. It's a total honor. Kira:   Well, let's start with your story. So, how did you end up as The Grumpy Grammarian? Autumn:        So, I used to be a copywriter for hire. I would sling ink for the right price. I had good intentions, write copy for business owners, so their prospects would buy from them. As soon as I landed my first client, I put my head down, never came up for air. And fast forward five years later, and I burned out. Back then, my marketing plan was simple. Find clients, write copy, get money, but part of the reason why I burned out was because that I didn't put my business first, and the other part of that reason was because I didn't know what I stood for. Who was I as a business owner and copywriter, and what did I believe in? Right around that time, I got hooked up with Erika Lyremark, and she helped me figure out that the [inaudible 00:02:32] was real, and her name was Autumn. I didn't put effort into growing my business. I never expressed my personal opinions, and fun wasn't something I should be having while writing copy or even business, but with Erika's help, I was able to align my business and my life and my viewpoints so that I could evaluate where I was, where I wanted to be, and what I loved to do. And with her help, that's when I made the decision to become The Grumpy Grammarian, and it's where I embrace my grumpy self, but also copyediting because for me, it's not about how great of a writer I was, it's how well I could edit. I know I could take word vomit that I wrote and spin it into word gold that everyone wanted to read. So, I decided to transition from copywriter to copyeditor. I could spot certain words and phrases in my copy and sweep them so that the writing made sense, and it connected with readers on a deeper, more memorable level. I started to share helpful tips. I got vulnerable with my email subscribers. I made a list of how I wanted to move through the world, and when I started living by my own set of rules is when I started finding my perfect partner, and following these rules allowed me to share my viewpoints and what I believe in, and when I started doing that, I discovered that I had so many opinions about copywriting and copyediting. And so, for once, I put myself and my business first, but nobody's just born with a moniker like The Grumpy Grammarian. It's a title that I earned, and that's based off my childhood where I spent quite a bit of time in the hospital from chronic pneumonia and other complications associated with muscular dystrophy. My average hospital stay was three months, but my longest when I was kid was just shy of seven months. So, all of that made me kind of grumpy because staying in a hospital bed, I had no siblings to play with. They had to be at school. I had no pets to cuddle with because they weren't allowed at the hospital. A lot of the times, I was in the hospital during the holidays. So, we didn't celebrate until we were all together. A lot of the time, I was also in the hospital for my birthdays. I couldn't have cake because I was hooked to a ventilator. So, all of that, needles and uncomfortable beds and ventilators made me totally grumpy. I embraced my grumpy side from when I was a child and really projected that into my business, which is sort of how I became The Grumpy Grammarian. Rob:   I like it. Love the story and definitely want to ask you more about your childhood, but while you were talking about the process that you went through to identify your viewpoints and maybe some of the rules, will you tell us just a little bit more about that? How did you decide what were the viewpoints that you were going to go with? Was it a natural process? Did it take some digging, some real thinking work? How did that all come about? Autumn:        Well, it took a lot of work. I had to go through and make a list, like I said, of how I wanted to move through the world. For example, I make connections without expectations. To me, people are not transactions, but before I made that rule when I was a copywriter, I looked at everyone as a transaction because it's always a feast or famine cycle for me back then. So, I had to really make my own set of rules, and another rule that I came up with is that language is not about conforming to stodgy, old grammar rules. So, I'm not going to conform to those rules. I don't believe in it or do that either, and also, you have to have fun. If you're not having fun, your clients aren't going to have fun, and it's just going to be a trickle down effect where everyone's kind of going to be miserable. So, I found that if I made these rules, and I came up with these viewpoints because my rules shape my viewpoints. And so, like I was saying where language isn't about conforming to stodgy, old grammar rules, one of my viewpoints is that copyediting isn't about memorizing grammar rules. There are so many different ways to move through the world, and when you look at the world differently, and you decide that this is how I'm going to move through the world, I'm able to expand on my knowledge base and really share and have more fun. Kira:   So, Autumn, when you create these rules, how do you share them? Are these rules posted on your website, or is this something that becomes blog content? How do you start to share that with the world? Autumn:        It is in the introduction to my book. I call it ... My viewpoints are almost like a mini manifesto. So, that is where I share them, and it's also eventually going to be on my website. I am in the middle of redoing my content again for like the hundredth time because nothing is ever perfect for me, and I want it to be perfect, but I have to acknowledge that everything evolves just like language. So, eventually, my viewpoint will be listed on my website. Kira:   Okay. Cool. And what's the impact been on your business once you really figured out these rules, these viewpoints and shared them with prospects? How did your business change as far as the people you're attracting, what you're selling, and just kind of the bottom line, too? Autumn:        I'm learning more about myself as I go, and the more I learn about myself, the more I attract people who are like me that have the same ambitions and the same drive that I have, and we share the same ... I don't want to say mindset, but the same ideals, but when I really embraced my viewpoints and how to move through the world, I was able to get hyper-focused and super intentional. So, I was growing my business, forming lasting client relationships, having fun, like I said, and because of that, last June, I was able to offboard my final copywriting client, a long-term client. I absolutely adored her, and because of that,

Doug Pew, composer turned copywriter, discusses his transition to copywriting, the impact of mentors, the MAESTRO framework for copywriting, the challenges of getting started, and the importance of being in a category of one. He also shares a favorite composer story and emphasizes the power of stories in copywriting.