The Copywriter Club Podcast

Marketing strategist and event planner, Patsy Kenney, is our guest for the 151st episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. Patsy is wrapping up a couple of transitions in her business, including combining her event planning business into an agency with two of her best friends. We asked Patsy about all the changes in her life and... •  how Patsy became a brand and event specialist •  all the things someone needs to know to be an event planner •  how to think about the purpose of your event to magnify your ripple effect •  Patsy’s 4P process for event planning •  the power of being intentional about everything at an event •  how to foster more connection at an event (what we try to do at TCCIRL) •  the part that branding and marketing play in your event •  when copywriters should consider holding their own events •  why retreats and personal gatherings are such a great opportunity •  the mistakes she’s seen others make with their events •  why she decided to fold her business into an agency with friends •  navigating business and growing when life throws you a setback •  what comes next for Patsy and her business(es) To hear the brilliant things Patsy shared about events and dealing with change, click the play button below, or download this episode to your favorite podcast app. Or scroll down for a full transcript.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Nikki Groom The Good Life Project Seth Godin Vidyard AndCelebrate.com TheBrandingEdit.com Patsy's Instagram Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground   Full Transcript: Rob:   What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes, and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That's what Kira and I do every week at The Copywriter Club Podcast. Kira:   You're invited to join the club for episode 151 as we chat with branding and events strategist, Patsy Kenney, about celebrating something every day, what it's like to start an agency with your best friends, how to know if you should have your own event, and what it takes to make an event successful. Welcome, Patsy. Rob:   Hey, Patsy. Patsy:            Hey, thank you both so much for having me. I'm really excited about this conversation. Kira:   Yes, we are excited, and we met ... I was trying to trace it back, but we met via Nikki Groom, who is also on our show, and we met at the Good Life Project, which is such a nice place to meet you. Patsy:            We did. It was a lovely space, and I just adore that community because it is full of amazing people like yourself who are looking to really get the most out of this human experience that we're a part of. Kira:   All right, so, Patsy, let's kick us off with your story. I know you've gone through a lot of changes in your business and your life. Let's just start with how you ended up becoming a brand and event strategist. Patsy:            Awesome. Yeah, so my path has not been a linear one by any means. When I first graduated from high school, I grew up in a small town in Maine, and I knew I wanted to leave the state, at least for those four years of college. I found myself in Rhode Island. When I first started that college pathway, I really didn't know what I wanted to focus on, and I didn't really have a great sense of self. I knew that I loved learning about people, and I was a decent writer. Those two things as my filter, I eventually found myself pursuing a public relations degree, and quickly, after graduation, found myself in a corporate setting in a marketing department for very well-known brands, but in an industry and space that wasn't exactly what I would call interesting to me. While it was a great foundational place for me to land in terms of learning about how a business works and what it's like to be out in this sort of corporate world, it was wonderful. The people I met during that time period were very integral in how I sort of shaped my path forward beyond that, but very quickly into that first six months of "adult" corporate life, I thought, "Gosh, there has to be more to life than this." I ended up going back to school to pursue something more creative. I was studying graphics, multimedia, and web design in a small college here in Rhode Island, working full-time, going to school at night. That's where really the time and place that I fell into branding and brand development and the art of that, and finding the deeper meaning behind the messaging, and how you can utilize visuals to tell a story, as well as copywriting to connect as quickly and deeply with your clients or future prospective customers as possible. That really lit me up, so I found myself over the last decade or so, prior to starting my own business, kind of bouncing from ... I would say these were intentional leaps, but bouncing from corporate job to nonprofit setting to different industries, and sort of getting this broad scope of how I could utilize all of this knowledge in a new way to serve different markets, and along the way, event creation came into that. When it finally came time for me to step out onto my own, I launched this blog, and I wanted to form a business around this idea of celebration and events, and that marketing background all started to come into play. My first anchor clients kind of came into my path by happenstance and said to me, while I still had a corporate job at the time, "I am a business coach. I'm looking to serve other coaches and consultants and help them build their businesses, and I'm planning this live event. It sounds to me like you have all the ingredients to support me with that, from the conception and visuals and experience side to marketing and how do I actually attract people into this experience." She sort of saw something in me before I even saw it in me and led me into my first opportunity, and I was able to build a successful business in that realm over the last few years. Rob:   Can we talk a little bit about that in-depth? What are all those pieces that come together to make a good event planner? Patsy:            Yeah, oh, gosh. Rob:   Or, event strategist, I guess, is the better word. Patsy:            I think it's really above anything else knowing what your purpose is for an experience. A lot of times, when I'm first introduced to folks, they're looking for someone to support them with logistics. They're like, "Oh, my gosh. Planning an event." They know enough to know that planning an event is a heck of a lot of work, and it's a full-time job in and of itself a lot of times, depending on the scale of what you're looking to create. We get kind of, I think, by nature, get caught up in the details of where's it going to be, how are people going to get there, what's it going to look like, the feel, all that kind of stuff. Hosting an event for your business is to take a step back and say, "Okay, from this greater point of view, how could this experience help you propel your business forward in a way you want to go?" How do you want to grow? Five years from now, what do you want to be doing inside of your business? Let's take that knowledge, that sort of future look ahead, and see what we can do intentionally and strategically now in creating this experience to help you lay the foundation for where you want to go. Why are we gathering people together? How is the event going to help people? What transformation do you want them to have inside of that container of that experience? And, one of my favorite questions to ask is, how do you want your guests to feel? How are they feeling before they come into this space, and then what are they saying when they leave the space? Who are they calling? Whether it's their best friend or their partner or business colleague or spouse on the way home, what are they saying about this experience when they leave? Because really, when it comes down to marketing, and you both know this so well in terms of copywriting, but it's like how do we evoke a feeling which ignites a memory inside of someone so that you're creating this word-of-mouth sort of ecosystem for your brand and your business, and people leave the experience talking about you in a way that you want to be talked about. It's like, I think, through those one-to-one-to-one connections that that's how the ripple effect grows around your brand, around your business, around how you're showing up in the world, and how you can continue to help people beyond your own network. Kira:   Can you give us an overview of your process when you're working with a client? Maybe we can pull some of your ideas and use them as our own so that you can do that so that people do walk away with a certain feeling, and your client achieves the big goal. What's your process like to make sure that happens? Patsy:            I have sort of four Ps that I work from, and the first being purpose. What is your purpose, your mission, your greater sort of purpose in the world, and what are you trying to say with your brand or your business? Then, we kind of hone in on that specifically for an event because it can be quite daunting to try to jam your entire message into ... Say it's like a three-hour experience, it really kind of depends on context too. The first phase of any work I do is always around getting clear on what's the context here. What are our goals? What's the purpose for gathering? Then, the second P is people, like who is this specifically for? Without those two elements, you can't really craft an experience without knowing both of those and being really clear on those. Sometimes people come in with sort of broad strokes of what they like to do, and then, through a series of questions,

For the 150th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, we asked public relations and podcast expert, Brigitte Lyons, to talk about the best ways to build authority. Brigitte has presented to our Think Tank and The Underground, but we felt like what she has to share is too good to keep secret. In this interview, we asked her about: •  her early experiences as a PR specialist •  how she shifted her business from PR to specializing in Podcasts •  why podcasting is a powerful medium for building authority (and finding clients) •  how to get started pitching podcasts—what to think about before you pitch •  her advice to beginners and those who have “nothing” to say •  the elements of your podcast pitch—what you need to include •  what not to do when you pitch (the bad pitches she’s seen) •  what to do after the podcast goes live to maximize the impact •  how to make the interview successful—how to prep •  why you need a clear call to action to direct people to your website If you've thought of using podcasts to build your authority as a copywriter, you'll want to listen to this episode. To do that, just click the play button below or subscribe with your favorite podcast app. Readers can scroll down for a full transcript.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Creative Live Entrepreneur on Fire Lacy Boggs Zencastr Sims CatQuest Brigitte’s website Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground   Full Transcript: Kira:   What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes and their habits? Then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work. That's what Rob and I do every week at The Copywriter Club Podcast. Rob:   You're invited to join the club for episode 150 as we chat with media strategist and podcast expert Brigitte Lyons about building a reputation, tactics copywriters can use to build authority and recognition, what to include in your podcast pitch so the host will say yes and a few details about her new business Podcast Ally. Kira:   Welcome Brigitte. Brigitte:         Hi. Thank you so much. Episode 150. I heard you saying in the intro. I feel like that's a milestone episode. Kira:   This is a big deal episode. Yes. Rob:   Definitely a big deal episode. And I probably just said the business name wrong too, it's Ally, right? Not Alley. Brigitte:         Yeah, it's Ally. The naming of the business, that mistake right there was actually my biggest kind of fear. And there's another company that has a pop-up ally and for years I thought it was Ali, so I'm like, it'll just, it'll be what it is. Rob:   Yeah. My apologies. Everybody check out Podcast Alli and yeah and learn more. Kira:   So we are so excited to have you here, Brigitte, because you have been in our community, you've already run a couple of workshops for our mastermind group and for our membership. And every time you run a workshop you teach, there's so much you bring to the table and you teach us about podcasting and PR. So we knew we had to bring you on the podcast and I'm personally working with you too. So I'm clearly a big fan. So let's just kick this off with your story. How did you end up in PR? Brigitte:         Yeah, well I got into PR really early in my career. When I was in college, I was a creative writing major and of course, like all creative writing majors, I thought I'm going to leave school. I want to do something really creative. I want to write. Of course, I want to write the great American novel, which I haven't done, but there's still time. And I stumbled into PR by accident, while I was still in school, I did an internship for actually a local sheriff's department. It's this crazy story where the sheriff ended up in the hospital. My mom was an ER nurse and they got to talking and she's like, ‘Hey, do you have any internships for my daughter?’ And it turned out being a really amazing experience because by the end of that summer, I was writing a full newsletter. We were doing all these really cool events. We did this whole event around not drinking and boating and we did some film spots and things like that. And I thought, ‘Oh, this would be kind of a cool way to spend my time when I'm out of school.’ And so I dove right into PR. I started out in the big agency path. So I did really political PR, so issue management, government relations, like if a company wanted legislation passed, I was in the agency helping shape public opinion about that legislation. If you're getting the sense listening to this thinking like, ‘Oh, Brigitte, so you are one of the bad guys.’ You're not entirely wrong about that. And so when I was doing that work, I just really realized that some of the things that I was working were entirely lined up with the beliefs and the values that I had. And so I started looking for ways where I could take that experience and apply it to people and companies and business owners that I felt really passionately about and invested in. And so that's how I ended up with the business that I have today. It's been more than a 15 year journey from those first days of doing that kind of political based PR to what I'm doing now. But every step of the way I feel like has been led to this culmination of what my business does now, which is super cool. Rob:   I love hearing that. I have a similar experience early in my career where I was writing PR for a big agency and our client was into radioactive waste. And so I was writing some things about why the company was so good for helping with this and just felt really icky. And it was nice to leave that behind. But having said that, what are some of the things that you learned as a PR specialist that you use today in your business in order to get the right kind of customers and the right kind of attention on you? Brigitte:         Yeah. Well the more I've gone into my career and especially when I started building my own business, I realized that everything in PR is really about sales, right? We call it pitching the media because we're selling our clients stories and ideas to the media with the hope that they'll pick them up. And so when I started building a business, I realized that all of those skillsets really served me well. I mean, the number one piece of training I had was trying to identify what is the person at the other side of the table or the other end of the phone. What do they really care about and how can I convey my client's message in a way that speaks to the heart of something that really concerns them? And in my agency days, we were dealing with these really technical issues. I dealt with things in the energy sector, so it was this really technical stuff and we had to work really hard to explain these things in a way that the general consumer would understand, ‘Why is my electric bill going up?’ Right? And so being able to take something that was so dry and work so hard to translate it into a way that the average person can understand these technical models was so important to me in building my own business because I don't have that gap now when I tell people that I do PR or I do podcast outreach for small businesses, they generally get it. But it's not enough to just say, this is what I do for people, but you want to tell a story about why it matters to the person you're talking to. So whether I'm in a one on one conversation trying to sell my services or if I'm representing a client and trying to pitch them a story, I'm always looking at, how can you dig deeper and relate it back to the person you're talking to? And I think that that skill is something that serves you so well in your career. Kira:   And, Brigitte, your business has changed over time too. And now you're focused primarily on podcasting. So can you just tell us a little bit more about that evolution in your business and even that moment when you realized, I'm really going to go all in and focus on podcasting. Brigitte:         Yeah. I love talking about this because it is something that is important to me in terms of the audience that I work with and how this evolution has happened because it's really guided by what the clients I was working with needed. So when I first started my business I was very involved in the creative entrepreneur space. I was doing design blogging on the side, I was really in that design, sponge, decorate kind of space. And so I started out building PR plans for creatives. That was my first business evolution. And I did some creative live classes and then I started taking on clients. But when I started taking on clients, product based PR was never my background. I'd done the government and the B2B PR. And so I started shifting in a little bit. It was still people who were kind of creatively inclined and had that spirit but more people who were speaking other business owners. So like your copywriters, creatives. But a lot of those sales are B2B. And so early on in those days, this must've been seven or eight years ago, a lot of what people were doing were guest blogging or they were doing things like contributions on fast company Inc. and entrepreneur. And so that's where I started. Podcasts really were barely a thing if they were even a thing. I think the very first podcast, maybe it started at that time. So we were working with people on that and helping them kind of get their message out and get media logos for their sites and things. And then about four years ago, I had a client who came to me with a really cool project and she was just saying I just want some media badges for my website. So she was really heavily invested in the Facebook advertising and she's like, ‘I just need these for that social proof and we can do a couple of other things too.’ And we did some experiments with her so we got her those media logos,

This episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, is all about The Copywriter Accelerator—the 16-week program designed to help "newish" copywriters build the foundations of a healthy business. Kira and Rob talk about what it includes and who it's for in this short, informational episode. The Copywriter Accelerator opens up for new members on August 27 and launches for good the first week of September.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: The Copywriter Accelerator Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Intro: Content (for now) Outro: Gravity   Full Transcript: Since this is just a short discussion of The Copywriter Accelerator, there is no transcript for this episode.

Copywriter Lindsay Hotmire is our guest for the 149th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. We’ve gotten to know Lindsay over the past six months as she’s made some big changes to her business—including dialing in her niche and reaching out to a new kind of client. She told us all about the process she has followed as she’s made these changes (funny enough it’s the same process she walks her clients through). We asked Lindsay a bunch of stuff including: •  how Lindsay went from high school English teacher to anti-hog activist to copywriter •  how she found her first few clients so she could quit her full-time gig •  the resources she used to gain traction and reach six figures •  the “unbranding” transition she’s been going through over the last few months •  why she applied her three-part client framework to her own business •  her interest in phenomenology and how that affects her work •  how developing a framework has changed the way so works with clients •  the 5 steps of her framework and the questions she asks •  why pivots are good for your business and why you should trust the journey •  what she’s done to show up more for her audience—and where she does it •  what to do if you don’t have anything interesting to share •  the changes she’s making as she moves her business forward •  how she gets so much done as a busy mom of four teens •  what she would do differently if she had to start over Lindsay offers a calm, collected look at what it means to be a six-figure copywriter—including the struggles and successes. To hear this episode, click the play button below or subscribe and download it to your favorite podcast app. Rather read? Scroll down for a full transcript.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Start with Why by Simon Sinek Researching The Lived Experience by Max Van Manan To Kill a Mockingbird Lindsay’s website Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground   Full Transcript: Rob:   What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes, and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That's what Kira and I do every week at The Copywriter Club Podcast Kira:   You're invited to join the club for episode 149 as we chat with copywriter, Lindsay Hotmire about her framework that helps clients understand how she helps them brand their businesses, her interest in phenomenology, and how that impacts her business, changing niches and focusing on the clients she loves, and the number one thing that's helped her push her business forward. Welcome, Lindsay. Lindsay:        Hey, I'm so excited to be here. Kira:   I know. We're excited too, and we're really grateful that we've been able to get to know you better through the Think Tank, and just chatting with you recently about all the changes you've made in your business and some of the frameworks you're developing. We've got to talk to you about this, and of course, hit record as we're chatting through some of this. Why don't we start with your story? How did you end up as a copywriter? Lindsay:        Yes, so my story. I always tell people I hate telling my own story. I like to collect people's stories better, but my story really starts, I guess professionally back in 1999. I graduated from college. That was a time where I guess the internet existed, but fairly. Napster was still a thing. Facebook and LinkedIn, they didn't even exist, and so I knew I loved to write, but I graduated from college with an education degree. I was going to teach high school English. I thought that that's what I wanted to do because I understood even then the power of language to kind of change lives, and I thought, ‘What better place to do that than in a classroom.’ I realized pretty quickly that that wasn't really the place for me. I just ... My husband is an educator. He spent his life teaching educators, and so I have the utmost respect for educators, but it wasn't my place. That wasn't my passion, and so by the time I had baby number two, I decided to step out of the world of education, and so over the next few years, as I was having babies, raising my family, I did lots of things part-time. I worked in a law office, I taught part-time at a university, I worked on local political campaigns, and I became an activist for sustainable agriculture. That is the thing that really changed everything for me. That's how I became a copywriter. 15,000 hogs turned me into a copywriter. The story is really, I became an activist for sustainable agriculture and realized that all the processes laid out for me to affect change, the democratic processes, they weren't working. I just thought, ‘If I'm going to affect change, the only way I can do it is through the written word,’ and so I went on, got my master's in professional writing, and started freelancing. A few years later, I became Assistant Director in Comms and Marketing at a small private university, and spent a few years in that job, and then some things changed, turnover in different staff and I just realized, ‘It's time for me to get out,’ and so I said, ‘Okay, Lindsay. When you're making as much freelancing as what you are at this full-time job, you can quit.’ That was about three months, and that was back in April of 2016, and now here I am. Rob:   I want to go back to the hogs, like what do you have against hogs, and how did that start the whole thing? Was this you saw like farming wasn't good, and so you want to make changes? I'm curious about the trigger here that made you the copywriter. Lindsay:        Right. Yeah, totally unlikely thing for me to ever get involved with, but my husband and I had bought a house. We completely vetted it, renovated it, moved in three months later, 15,000 hogs became our neighbor, so now they'd surrounded us within three-square miles, and the way that ... We lived in Ohio at the time. The way Ohio law is written is they were all unregulated, so there was no watchdog, so one farmer had all of these hogs, and there's just no watchdog, and that just concerned me because I thought, ‘What's this doing to our water?’ You just had to step outside to know what it was doing to your air, and more importantly, more significantly to me was what it was doing to the fabric of the communities. You have these small rural communities that had been very historically close-knit communities. Several dozens of the families had lived there for generations, and it was tearing our community apart at the seams, and so when I got my master's in Professional Writing, my thesis was I traveled all throughout the State of Ohio and captured the stories of these neighbors of rural farms all throughout the state, and it was the same tale of people losing faith in the democratic process, their communities falling apart, friends becoming enemies, just sad tales of disillusionment, and so yeah. It just changed my life. It completely changed my life, and so I kind of look back at it and laugh, but yeah, it was really a life-changing moment for me. I still eat bacon though. Rob:   Yeah. It could have been that then, but it is interesting that things like that can have such a profound impact on like a career change. Jumping forward then, when you decided to leave your job, but you wanted to make sure that you were making enough in freelance, what did you do to get yourself out in front of clients because three months feels like a pretty short timeline to replace a full-time income? Lindsay:        Right. Well, a few things. Number one, keep in mind, I was working at a small private university, and so we're not talking a lot of income. For anybody who works in that field, you know what that's like. It's not like I was replacing a six-figure income. That's number one. Number two is that in that kind of 10-year span that I was doing lots of things in the midst of raising four babies, I freelanced, and so I left that network behind when I stepped into the full-time workforce, and so that was my first step, was to reach back out to that old network and say, ‘Hey, I'm back in the game, and so if you have anything that you need or you know anybody who does, please direct them to me.’ Really, just by a lot of grace, I feel, things just moved in my direction, and the day that I quit my job, I walked out, drove home, got home, and the phone rang, and it was a husband of a friend of mine who said, ‘Hey, I heard you quit, and we need a researcher at our marketing agency. Would you want to do this on retainer basis?’ That was almost like two-thirds of my income that I just had walked away from, that retainer was, and so that was a huge plus and bonus for me as well, was to be able to get on something like that. That's how that worked for me. Kira:   What type of projects were you taking during that time? You mentioned the retainer. Were you mostly taking on retainers? Did you develop and find a niche early on? What did that look like in those early days? Lindsay:        Yeah, absolutely not. I wasn't mostly retainers. It was that one retainer, and then the rest was just hodgepodge. I took on really anything that came to me, partly because I, maybe of my scrappy personality. I'm just going to get in there like a cross-country runner, and use your elbows to nudge in and out, and just do what you have to do to win the race, and so I was willing to take on really any type of client that came to me, and ... I don't know if I just answered your question, Kira or if I talked around that but ... Kira:   Yeah. I guess I'm just wondering also, what was the big thing or one thing that helped you grow the most in those early days in your business because we know behind the scenes that you had a lot of success early, and you became that six-figure, sought-after, a business owner,

Author, copywriter and member retention specialist, Robert Skrob, is our guest n the 148th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. We recently invited Robert to present his unique business model to the members of The Copywriter Think Tank and wanted to share his unique approach to marketing his business with everyone who listens to the podcast. We asked Robert about: •  how he went from working as a book keeper to writing copy for subscription businesses and the advantages his accounting background give him •  how copywriters make our business more complex than it needs to be •  why your marketing should be all about the problem you solve •  Robert’s advice to copywriters choosing a niche •  how he promotes his business today •  the unique approach he used to attract his first big clients (this is worth stealing) •  how he uses his book to attract and qualify clients today •  the kinds of clients copywriters should be trying to attract (sail fish, not brim) •  how Robert pitches long-term projects to his clients •  the mindset issues that keep us from getting the paychecks we want •  what he learned from Dan Kennedy and Bill Glazier •  the ideas you can safely ignore when it comes to “the next new thing” •  positioning yourself as the wizard with the knowledge •  why there is no future in copywriting and what you need to be instead Here we go again, saying this is a great interview. But if you want to attract multiple, high-paying clients to your business,  you could do a lot worse than follow the blue print that Robert lays out in this episode. To hear it, click the play button below, or subscribe with your favorite podcast app. Or scroll down for a full transcript.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: The Ultimate Sales Letter by Dan Kennedy David Deutsch Parris Lampropoulos Retention Point by Robert Skrob Bill Glazier Perry Marshall Adam Witty Travis Miller The Bonanza King  Robert’s website Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Intro: Content (for now) Outro: Gravity   Full Transcript: Kira:   What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes, and their habits? Then, steal an idea or two to inspire your own work. That's what Rob and I do every week at The Copywriter Club Podcast. Rob:   You're invited to join the club for Episode 148 as we chat with author and copywriter, Robert Skrob, about adopting a unique copywriting niche and positioning himself as the industry expert in memberships and subscriptions, the sales formula to outline his recent book, Retention Point, why people join memberships and why they leave, and what it's like to write a book with Dan Kennedy. Hey Robert. Robert:          It's my honor to be here. It took, I guess I'm 148 on the list of the most interesting copywriters to talk to. Rob:   You're way above that. But, we just haven't been able to get with you. You're so busy. Kira:   That's true. Rob:   With a such a great business. It's amazing to have you here though. Thank you so much for being here. Robert:          I'm honored. I don't hang out at copywriting events or speak at those things, but I certainly see copywriters struggle and become very frustrated. So hopefully, we can share some ideas that can help simplify this whole business for everybody. Kira:   Sounds great. Well, let's start with your story first. How did you end up as a copywriter? Robert:          Actually, back in 1993, I was an accountant at a public accounting firm and hated it. I was there three months and left, took a job as a bookkeeper for a company that did consulting with non-profit associations, and I ended up buying that company about five years later. So, I had 20 associations that I was responsible for doing membership marketing, event marketing, sponsorship sales, and I needed to know how to get this stuff sold. I ran across Dan Kennedy about '96 and found his how to write a sales letter book. I can remember sitting at my living room coffee table going through that book chapter by chapter writing my first sales letter ever and editing it and getting it out. So, for a number of a years, for the clients that we were working with, I was writing offers for membership sales, selling sponsorships, selling exhibits, and even in some political campaigns. So, it gave me a very quick practice in how to write because I was writing to movers to get them to join. I was writing to motorcycle dealers, to different types of doctors, dermatologists, OB-GYNs, pain medicine doctors, anesthesiologists, and then occupational therapists and geologists, all different types of people. So, it helped me really understand. They'd say you've got to learn what the insider language is of the niche and learn what they're thinking. That experience really helped me learn that. I started doing some freelance copywriting. The date may be wrong, but I think '03, '04. Then, I also started sharing what I was doing with Dan back then, and I joined his coaching group and started participating. He said, ‘You know what, Robert? You ought to start sharing what you're doing with associations with some of these for-profit information marketing businesses.’ I go, ‘Oh, Dan. I'm just copying your formula to the association world.’ He's like, ‘Yeah, you ought to try to show them.’ So anyway, we did, and I sold a how to create an association product. This is a little bit of a long story, but we created an information marketing association and built that membership. I sold it in 2012. Then, that left me with the figure out what was next, so I started going back to the copywriting route. But, I knew that for me as a copywriter, I didn't feel like I was interested in competing with the top dogs. Just like, ‘Look at that.’ I'd go, ‘Man, there's just no way I care to go head to head with a David Deutsch or a Parris Lampropoulos or any of those guys.’ Why would I compete there? Where can I go that is never going to get their interest that I can have my own business? So, after a couple of iterations, I figured out that this whole membership thing was a great place to be. So, I started building essentially what, between us, we could call a copywriting practice, but the clients, I don't ever use that word. So, we created a nice little business out of that. Rob:   It's definitely a good story. So, just to make sure I heard you right. Your background was in accounting and bookkeeping, not necessarily writing. Robert:          Well actually, I still have my CPA license, so yes, at heart, a bookkeeper accountant. Rob:   So, yeah. So, that's interesting to me. Are there things from bookkeeping or accounting that are applicable to what you do as a copywriter, or is it more even maybe in understanding the business and the numbers to help you do things specifically, or have you kind of turned away from that and really focused in on the marketing side? Robert:          I do think it helps me, in particular, in the math portion of the business. So, when I'm looking at a membership business, not only am I able to look at the copy and go, ‘Yeah, I think I can do better than this.’ But, I can also help them calculate what a percentage improvement would mean to their bottom line. So, very often, when I am doing a diagnosis of a business, I'll have their numbers. So, in a membership, you have some sort of number, your lead acquisition. You have converting leads into maybe a trial member. You have trial conversion. You have 30-day onboarding conversion. Then, you've got a long term retention and a retention rate monthly. Maybe you're even looking at an annual renewal, and so you've got first year renewal and then, your renewals after that. So, by being able to be comfortable with numbers, I'm able to take the numbers they have, and if we're looking at improving the trial conversion rate, I can show, ‘Oh, okay. If we improve your trial conversion from 45% to 50%, that's going to mean X dollars to your bottom line, and you're not spending any more money on marketing. We're just simply making the marketing you do more effective.’ So, it has helped me demonstrate a return on investment for the copywriting services. Kira:   Okay, so before we started officially recording, you said something that really stood out to me. You said that you hung out with several copywriters. You weren't necessarily teaching copywriters. You don't want to be a copywriter guru, but you've noticed that many copywriters make this complicated, like we just make business and finding clients really complicated, more complicated than it needs to be. Can you talk a little bit about that, and why you don't call yourself a copywriter, and how you've seen copywriters make things a little bit more complicated than they need to be? Robert:          Sure. Really, it's applying copywriting principles to your own silly business of selling copywriting services. One of the things I've figured out is okay, with a business owner, if they have a problem that needs my solution. They need copy. They need marketing. They need marketing strategy. So, what are the symptoms of that? Well, they've decreased business. Their cost of marketing goes up. Their sales go down. What is the most natural thing for a person in that situation to do? Well, slice the marketing and advertising budgets, cut costs so that they're still making the same amount money, even as their revenue decreases. Well, geez. They're not thinking, ‘Oh, boy. Let me go find a copywriter somewhere. Let me search for a copywriter.’ If anything, it's like a marketing agency. A copywriter isn't the thing that they're looking for. Most likely, they're going to search for something along the lines of increasing leads, or a few of them will think of conversion, even that number.

Copywriter Adam Bensman is our guest for the 147th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. We've gotten to know Adam over the past few months and are very impressed with the business he's built. While so many copywriters struggle to find decent paying clients, Adam has built a great business working with a few, high-paying clients—and still has plenty of time at the end of the day for recreation and fun. We asked Adam about: •  how he went from door to door sales to copywriter (with a few stops in between) •  how he compensates for the “missing advantages” of face to face sales when you’re writing email (or sales pages) •  why you need to couple empathy with pain when you “agitate the pain” •  how to join the conversation in your prospect’s head •  the template he uses when he sits down to write for clients •  establishing boundaries and how it can change your business •  how Adam defines his niche (it’s not the regular way) •  the connection secret he used to find clients that fit in his niche •  the value he creates for his clients (and how he presents it) •  pricing… what Adam used to do and what he does today •  what a typical project looks like (and what Adam does to complete it) •  success fees and how it makes it work for his clients •  how to think bigger about your business We say this a lot, but this is a good one.  To hear everything Adam has to share, click the play button below or download this episode to your favorite podcast player. Rather read? Scroll down for a full transcript.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Joseph Sugarman Sales Email Formula Adam’s website Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Intro: Content (for now) Outro: Gravity   Full Transcript: Rob:   What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes, and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That's what Kira and I do every week at The Copywriter Club Podcast. Kira:   You're invited to join the club for episode 147 as we chat with copywriter Adam Bensman about his approach to finding high-paying clients and building a business to support his lifestyle, making the time to value switch, how he finds the right clients and prices his projects, and what all copywriters can do to think bigger about their businesses. Kira:   Welcome, Adam. Adam:            Hey. Thank you, Kira and Rob. It's great to be here. Rob:   Yeah, it's good to have you here. Kira:   All right, Adam. So let's start with your story. How did you end up as a copywriter? Adam:            My original background was in psychology and natural medicine, and when I moved to Madison, Wisconsin to pursue that venture, I was making no money in that field. And I set out to put food on the table, literally. I mean, I was that broke. So, I fell into door-to-door sales selling roofing, and from there worked my way up to be the COO of a multi-state roofing and storm restoration company. And when I left that space from burnout, I started in the consulting world. And I was writing all of our direct mail at that company when I was COO, and then when I was doing consulting, I was providing some of those service for clients, not really even understanding that there was a copywriting profession in existence. And I went on to co-found kind of an email marketing-type SaaS for the niche that I came from. And we went six months with zero sales. It was me and one partner. And I was sending emails out to our list that I had built, to past clients. I was posting on LinkedIn, posting on Facebook and engaging all the Facebook groups. We literally went six months with zero sales. And when I kind of reached this breaking point, it was like, we needed to turn the ship around. So, I found an opportunity to joint venture with someone in our space, share their list. And I said, ‘Hey, I'll write a promo series for you as long as I can promote our products.’ And I just poured my heart and soul into these three emails that I was able to write through this list, and looked at all the things I couldn't control when selling in person, which I was really good at, and figured out how I can control them in an email. So, I put together this three-email sequence and drove a $100,000 in contracted sales out of those three emails in a week. And I said, ‘Wow, I'm onto something. Six months, zero sales, $100,000 in a week. This is awesome.’ So, at that point, I was super fired up, and I said, ‘Hey, I'd love to do this for a living.’ And I didn't even know it existed. So long and short of it, picked up my first client as a copywriter from that specific email sequence. I ended up parting ways with my business partner. Just, you know how those go. We were doing well, and it just wasn't a good fit for us to be working together. And when we parted ways, I just set out to do it. And the rest is history. Rob:   I love when you're talking about taking the sales process and making it work in email, when mention all the things that you can't control, and how do you make it so that you can make that adjustment in email. Can you talk a little bit about those things that you don't control or that are out of your control and how you compensate for that when you write copy? Adam:            So what I found when I was doing door-to-door sales, and I train sales teams across the US and Canada, there are certain elements when you're selling in person where you can read body language. You can reel back in attention. You can spike your voice. You can use body language. And for me in in-home sales, I knew if I was invited to the kitchen table, nine times out of 10 I was walking out of there with a signed contract. But I also had the opportunity to bring in sample boards, to walk them out and point to the customers across the street or down the street that I've done, to show up, hold a sample board so they can visualize theirs. So, there's these tactile and tangible experiences that you can deliver to someone when you're selling in person And when you are selling in the written word, you can't control those pieces. So, I sat down, and I was trying to figure, ‘Okay, how do I get them to visualize this? How do I get them to believe that I am the expert? How do I reel back attention?’ And I realized ultimately through doing that that it's about putting the right content in the right order. And I still say to this day, and I know we're not going to get much into the writing process, but good writing is assembled. It's not really written. I mean, there's Joseph Sugarman who said that, and I completely agree. So I strategically place in sequence the hook, the opener, how I talk about pain. I don't just say, ‘Hey, are you sick and tired of being 30 pounds overweight?’ Breaking up that up into, ‘I know what it's like to be 36 pounds overweight, wake up every morning, stand on the scale, open my Facebook newsfeed, see a picture of myself, feel embarrassed, put my pants on and I can't get my belt buckle to buckle...’ Like, getting into that level of specificity in terms of empathy instead of just pain. Where to put in the social proof, how to get people to visualize about using future pacing of what their life or business or home is going to look like when we're done working together, as opposed to standing there with... Now there's even new tools, visualizers and all this stuff. So, controlling the uncontrollable, I think, is the struggle that we all face as copywriters. And that was my big breakthrough, because I was really, really a solid salesperson, and when I tried to do it in writing, I just flopped. And I thought I was amazing at it, too, which was funny. I was like, ‘Oh, I'm a great writer. I was great at sales. I can do this.’ And I realized that when I would write trying to sell, people could feel it. They could feel that I was trying to sell. And when I reread that copy now, I'm like, ‘Gosh, that was sleazy and salesy, and people see through it.’ So, I hope that answers your question. If not, I'm happy to dive back in. Rob:   No, it definitely does. And it feels to me like also the different between in-person sales is that you have that opportunity to address objections as they come up, whereas when you're email or a sales page you've going to be able to anticipate some of that stuff. So are there tricks that you use in order to come up with not just the selling argument and getting them to picture themselves with future pacing using the product or the service or whatever, but able to anticipate the objections they're going to have? And how do you address those in copy as well? Adam:            That is an awesome question. And I can't believe... It's funny. Every time I talk about controlling the uncontrollable, objections are the number one thing I focus on, and today I completely spaced it. Yeah, the answer to that is joining the conversation that's going on in the prospect's mind as they're reading it. And this is the hardest part that I feel like is a skill I've refined over the years writing, is how do I view my copy objectively? And I think we could all relate to this. Writing for ourselves is slower than writing for a client, because we're too close to it. So if I make a statement that says, ‘I can help you increase the click-through rate on your emails by five times,’ your first question would be, ‘How?’ Right? And whenever you make a claim in your copy that is a strong claim, there will be a question. If you make a statement of the results you drive, there will be a question. So any time we're making a statement, we can either address those head-on by just sliding into the answer, like, ‘Hey, I can help you 3X your click-through rate or 5x your click-through rate in your emails,’ and you're thinking, ‘How?

A-list Copywriter and best-selling author, Richard Armstrong, is our guest for the 146th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. Richard has been writing winning direct response copy for more than 30 years. And he just released his latest book, The Don Con. Kira and Rob invited Richard into the studio to talk about the book and a whole lot more. Stuff like... •  how Richard went from office boy to agency creative director •  the lessons he learned early on working on “junk” mail •  what’s changed in the world of direct response in 30 years—and what hasn’t •  his award-winning letter for Sea Turtle Rescue •  the go-to books he refers to again and again •  his favorite clients and the work he’s most proud of •  why he took long 3 martini lunches in his “Mad Men” days •  the one good copywriting habit he has •  the #1 thing that makes copywriters good at what they do •  what Richard learned while writing about con men •  the important difference between copywriters and confidence men •  his experience at Comic Con and FanCon •  what happened when he met Captain Kirk and The Fonz Don't miss your opportunity to get the free copywriting samples and download that Richard mentioned during the interview. And check out a few of the many resources he mentioned. This is a good one. To hear it all, click the play button below, or download this episode to your favorite podcast app. And if you prefer reading, you can scroll down for a full transcript.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: FreeSampleBook.com Claude Hopkins David Ogilvy Eugene Schwartz The Sea Turtle Letter The Responsive Chord by Tony Schwartz The Solid Gold Mailbox by Walter Wentz Being Direct by Lester Wunderman Boardroom Parris Lampropoulos Richard Viguerie Agora AWAI David Deutsch Clayton Makepeace Carline Anglade Cole Jim Rutz The Don Con Jonathan Frakes Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Intro: Content (for now) Outro: Gravity   Full Transcript: Rob:   This podcast is sponsored by The Copywriter Underground. Kira:   It's our new membership designed for you to help you attract more clients and hit 10K a month consistently. Rob:   For more information or to sign up, go to thecopywriterunderground.com. Kira:   What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That's what Rob and I do every week at The Copywriter Club Podcast. Rob:   You're invited to join the club for episode 146, as we chat with author and direct response copywriter Richard Armstrong about the persuasion techniques used by con artists that copywriters use as well, what he's learned from 40 years of writing junk mail and what he writes today, his new book The Don Con, and a very useful free bonus he's sharing with copywriters. Richard, welcome. Richard:        Thank you very much. It's great to be here. I am a big fan of the emails you guys send everyday. A lot of tremendous personality and voice in those emails and I read them avidly. Kira:   Thank you. Rob:   That's nice of you to say. I think all of the personality is Kira. I'm kind of the boring side, so she deserves the credit for that. Kira:   That is not true, but thank you for saying that. That's very nice and I was just saying before we started recording, Richard and I are officially neighbors because I just moved to Washington, D.C. So we're going to hang out all the time, right Richard? Richard:        Absolutely. The only problem with being a citizen of Washington is that the rest of the country hates you. So when you go anywhere else on vacation, tell them you're from Brooklyn, you'll get a much better response. Kira:   Okay, these are things I need to know that you need to teach me, so we'll sit down and go through all the rules of what I need to know about living here. Let's kick this off, Richard, with your story. How did you end up as a copywriter? Richard:        Well, it was totally by accident. I'm always kind of amused nowadays when I see these people, very young people, including one successful copywriter that I know that actually got interested while she was still in college. That didn't happen in my day 45 years ago. I mean, I think just about all of us kind of fell into this business and that was certainly my story. I got a job as a copy, not a copy but an office boy with a direct mail agency. Now what an office boy is, is kind of like beneath a secretary. It's somebody who just hangs around the office and if the important people need to have coffee or sandwiches sent in, you go get them and you lick envelopes and you stand at the photocopier machine and make copies, and things like that. And I was doing that for a while. In our agency, which was a small direct mail fundraising agency, the structure that they had is that they did not have a creative department. All the account executives did their own copywriting and none of them were very good at it. And a few of them actually hated it. And one day I was sitting with one of them and he was just tearing his hair out about trying to write a fundraising letter and I said, ‘Well, give me a whirl at it.’ I had always been told from high school and through college that I was a good writer. In fact, it kind of got me through college because I didn't really work very hard. And I had professors tell me this, they'd tell me this on blue books and things like that, they'd say, ‘Well, you obviously didn't attend most of the classes and you didn't read most of the books, but you're a very good writer so I'm going to have to give you a B+.’ So it's kind of how I got through college. I thought rather highly of my own writing ability and I said, ‘I'll take a shot at it.’ And I did, and the account exec liked it and he showed it to his boss and his boss liked it. They decided to show it to the client, the client liked it. They mailed it and it was a success and the next thing you know, the boss came to me and said, ‘You're the new creative director of this agency.’ And I've got to tell you a funny story, not long after that moment when he told me I was the new creative director. We had this big meeting of the entire staff in the conference room and the boss was up front with a blackboard and he was kind of planning out the next few months of what needed to be done in the agency. And he kept, every few minutes it seemed like he'd say, ‘Okay, Richard, we're going to need copy for this and we're going to need copy for that and we're going to need copy for this over here.’ And when the meeting broke up, I turned to one of the guys in the room and I said, ‘My God, I'm going to be standing at that photocopier machine for the rest of my life. Do we need that many photocopies?’ The guy said, ‘No, you idiot, copy is what we call fundraising.’ So here I was a creative director and a copywriter and I didn't even know what it was. I stayed at that agency for about two or three years, which until they fired me for mostly unrelated reasons. And then kind of a common scenario there a couple of weeks later, they called me back in and they said, ‘Richard, we fired you because we didn't like the long lunches that you took, especially coming back drunk half the time. We didn't like the fact that you rolled in at 10:00 in the morning and left at 4:00. There are a lot of your habits we didn't like, but we liked your copy, we loved your copies. So what we'd like to do is just pay you on a per piece basis.’ And I went, ‘What? Sounds pretty good to me.’ And so that was how my career as a freelancer began and that was way back in 1979. So I've been a freelancer for about 40 years. Rob:   Wow. And so the first thing, when I first met you, Richard, was at a Titans event and you were sharing a bunch of the experiences that you've had from early on in your career. You had actually even put together a booklet, I think for the people who were in the meeting and shared a bunch of the stories that you had gone through. And I loved reading them because I also started my career writing direct response mail, the actual mail that shows up in the mailbox, not the inbox. And so as I was going through, I'm like, oh, these are ... you were talking about the envelopes that you are using and the teasers that you're using and the lessons that you learned from so much of that stuff. And I just found it endlessly fascinating. And at the time, I said, ‘Hey, Richard needs to be on our list for podcast guests eventually.’ So I wonder if you could tell us some of those lessons that you learned early on as you were working with direct response mail and how it applies to some of the things that we do today. Richard:        Well, the booklet is still available by the way, it's at freesamplebook.com, which is my website. But when I decided to do that, I mean most copywriters have some version of their samples on their website. And I thought, well, what if I created a booklet of samples and choosing interesting ones. And what I think I did that was somewhat different from many copywriters is that I didn't just choose the huge successes. I also chose ones that were failures, some of them spectacular failures. And quite often things were ... And I've been in this situation a lot where I've written something that's really great and the client thinks it's great and we're all excited about it, and then the marketplace hates it. And I'd sort of, I'd take each one of these things and I'd analyze what made it a success or what made it a failure and what I learned from it. And it's really a process of learning that's gone over the course of 40 years. I'm not sure if I can think of any particular lessons that I've learned,

Copywriter Jay Pitkanen is our guest for the 145th  episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. Jay has an interesting background, having worked as a taxi driver and relationship coach which has prepared him well for the work he does as a copywriter. Kira and Rob asked Jay about: •  how he went from poker player to blogger to copywriter to coach •  what his business looks like today and what he writes •  why we need to be “cool with being vulnerable” •  what the typical conversation with his coaching clients looks like •  what it takes to shift someone’s mindset and why it works •  improving the offer to create a better connection with the audience •  the value of personality in attracting the right clients •  why trusting yourself leads to more opportunity—don’t wait for permission •  the power of controversy and the effect on his business •  the mistakes copywriters make that hold them back We also asked Jay about the lessons he learned as a taxi driver—his #1 takeaway from that experience is don’t show fear... and maybe that's a good lesson for copywriters as well. To hear this one, click the play button below, download the episode to your favorite podcast app, or scroll down for a full transcript.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: John Morrow Luke Sullivan Jay’s website Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Intro: Content (for now) Outro: Gravity   Full Transcript: Rob:   This podcast is sponsored by The Copywriter Underground. Kira:   It's our new membership designed for you to help you attract more clients and hit 10K a month consistently. Rob:   For more information or to sign up, go to thecopywriterunderground.com. What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes and their habits then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That's what Kira and I do every week at The Copywriter Club Podcast. Kira:   You're invited to join the club for episode 145 as we can chat with copywriter and relationship coach, Jay Pitkanen about marketing his business, what copywriting and relationship coaching have in common, owning your voice and viewpoints, and the business lessons he learned while driving a taxi. Kira:   Welcome, Jay. Rob:   Hey, hey. Glad to have you here. Jay:    Hi guys. Thanks for having me. Kira:   Yeah, great to have you here, Jay. I know we were just mentioning before we started recording that we had connected a couple of years ago, maybe three or four years ago. I'm not even sure how long ago now and so it's great to catch up with you now and hear about how your business has changed. So why don't we start with just how you got started as a copywriter and where you are today? Jay:    Oh, sure. So the thing is, I've always been interested in how people's minds work and how I can influence that. It's been like a curiosity of mine ever since ... as long as I can remember. I used to be a poker player for a while and then that got a bit too stressful to do as a living thing, but that always ... The reason I was interested in that was because I loved to see what's going on in people's minds, or at least I thought I could do that and that was so fascinating to me and ever since then, it's been expressing myself in a way to get other people interested in stuff and just hearing how people think and ways to get to influence that. That's always been such a huge fascination of mine and I wonder when the first time I really got into copywriting though was. It must've been like five or six years ago, when I started one of my first blogs and really got into writing. Kira:   Yeah, just when you got started with copywriting and then how that's changed too. Are you a copywriter today or has that morphed into something else over the last few years? Jay:    Out of my blog ... First there was I wanted to monetize my blogs. I wanted to be a blogger right? This was a whole huge thing four years ago. Everyone wanted to be a blogger and I'm like ‘Hey, I can make money with this, so yeah, I'm going to be a blogger.’ Whatever that means, I went to John Morrow and did his class and started building my blog, but I realized that more than the blog writing, I was interested in the marketing stuff, so then through that, I got a job at this software company, Thryv Scenes, which some of you may have heard of. I think that was actually the place when I really, really dived into copywriting as it is, as a sales tool, as a sales mechanism. So we worked together for a couple years but then I realized I really got to do my own thing, so I started ... We went our separate ways and I started building my own business and I figured since I liked writing and I liked the marketing stuff work so copywriting must be my thing and the interesting thing was as a new business owner, I started looking for gigs and I started hanging out with other copywriters. I realized that most of my time was spent coaching other writers to do better with their work, coaching on confidence, coaching on marketing strategy, coaching on everything which is not me doing copywriting and that's when I started to think ‘Hang on. Maybe I'm not a copywriter as such. Maybe I should just be a marketing strategist and let the writers do the copywriting, right? That's where I am today. I'm more doing the marketing strategy for copywriters and of course do my own copywriting on the side, but I'm more focused on the strategy consulting and coaching. Rob:   It's cool, so tell us a little bit more about that, what you're doing today, the marketing and the coaching side of it and how you're using copy to magnify what you're doing there. Jay:    Right, right. As I've been working with freelancers who want to grow their own business and copywriters and writers, the creative sort of people, the people with creative minds and the sensitive people, I realize that there's a huge demand for a product, for confidence and for that not caring so much about other people's opinions mindset. I started building a product on that and then I realized that ‘Hang on. I'm expressing my own skillset, my own talent and I'm basically writing the sales stuff for my own stuff and the sales content, the landing pages, the sales pages for my own product’ and there I realized that ‘Okay, actually I have the copywriting skills to express my own product benefits’ and the stuff like that, so that's what I'm thinking about now, is this huge sales base that I just wrote for myself. It felt more my thing, because I'm basically ... not writing copy as such, not writing copy as a service, but I'm more ... Through copywriting, I'm serving my coaching clients. Kira:   So today, most of your work is around different coaching programs. Is that right? Jay:    It's kind of right and I think you mentioned the picture I took in the local town square. I had this sign that says ‘Pre-dating advice’ and that's ... It's one of the things I do. This was actually quite a random idea, but the main thing in my coaching is confidence and communication. As you notice, I'm a great communicator and I never make any mistakes on that, but it's all about ... That's what I teach people, is to be cool with being vulnerable and making mistakes and it leads to all these side projects, like the dating and relationship coaching which always requires vulnerability and good communication and freelancers who want up their own business, that also requires a connection with your own vulnerable side and knowing what you actually want from the business. Kira:   Yeah, I love that concept of being cool with ... cool with being vulnerable. I think that's such a good way of putting it, so it sounds like right now, you have maybe two different types of clients. You have copywriters potentially and other creatives and then you have maybe another bucket of people who are in the dating world and just trying to hook up, so is that accurate? Jay:    Well, kind of. I don't have many dating clients per se, but it's more like I have a couple of clients who are men, men who are trying to learn how to be better men. Maybe not better is probably not the word, but grow into the man they always wanted to be. That's the kind of client I have, but I also have the marketing strategy clients and this is the really interesting thing because I keep ... I can look back at a couple of ... the past decade basically and I've been flipping around between teaching people and marketing. It's been two distinct buckets and just in the past few days, I've been wondering is there a connection there because what I've always ... and both of these skillsets require teaching and explaining and helping people understand stuff, so that's ... I think there is my skillset, really, is hanging out with people and listening to what they want and what kind of goals they have and helping them get to that place, or at least show them a direction to get there. Kira:   Right. Yeah. I can see where there's an overlap and it might be interesting to talk about the overlap between the two spaces you work in. Could you give us just an example of a couple action steps you would give to one of your clients? Let's start with the dating space. Maybe one of the men you've worked with who wants to be more vulnerable and cool and become the person they want to become, what would you ask them to do typically? Jay:    Typically, it always starts with ‘Forget about the girls or guys’. Forget about the type of person you're attracted to. Just forget about trying to get that and they're like ‘What? But that's the point!’ But it's absolutely not the point. It's the opposite of the point. Where we always begin and where we always should begin is sitting down, listening to yourself and listening to all the thoughts and feelings that come up,

Copywriter Jeff Kimes is our guest for the 144th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. Jeff is a former scientist and musician (or rather, he's currently a musician making his living writing copy for clients). We asked Jeff about his path into copywriting and a bunch of other topics including... •  Jeff’s journey from scientist to copywriter •  the “copywriting” lessons he learned as a musician •  how he creates connection with his readers •  the importance of setting the stage to create a better experience •  what he’s doing today as a copywriter (and where he is living) •  the challenges of writing for a single client and learning their voice •  the benefits of working with a single client •  how we can optimize for learning throughout our careers •  what Jeff is doing to build his authority today Jeff also shared a few thoughts about the ethics of copywriting and why thinking about how your copy serves your customers matters. Click the play button below, find it on your favorite podcast app, or scroll down for a full transcript.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Jeff's music Joshua Bell in the Subway Video Brian Clark (Copyblogger) Brian Kurtz Scott Adams Jeff’s website Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Intro: Content (for now) Outro: Gravity   Full Transcript: Rob:   This podcast is sponsored by The Copywriter Underground. Kira:   It's our new membership designed for you to help you attract more clients and hit 10K a month consistently. Rob:   For information or to sign up go to thecopywriterunderground.com. Kira:   What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes and their habits then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That's what Rob and I do every week at The Copywriter Club Podcast. Rob:   You're invited to join the club for episode number 144 as we chat with copywriter Jeff Kimes about how science, music and travel combined to make him a more effective copywriter. His research and writing process, seeking out experiences that grow his career. And we might even talk a little bit about the ethics of copy. Kira:   All right, welcome Jeff. Rob:   Hey Jeff. Jeff:    Hello. Kira:   I want to say welcome back because we already did interview months ago, but we just lost the file. It just didn't work out. So welcome back. We never got to publish that conversation, but I know this one will be even more insightful. So Jeff why don't we start this off just with the basics of how you got into copywriting and then we'll go from there. Jeff:    So as far as my own journey into copywriting, I've lived a couple different phases of life, which I think is pretty normal at this point in society. I started out in science. I was working in a psychoneuroimmunology lab. After school I was doing, working in vaccine development. I worked in neuroscience labs and stuff like that. And after a while I got really sick of the lab life and was really hungering for more. And I always had a real big travel bug inside of me. And so went on a, found jobs that facilitated that lifestyle. I worked at sea a lot in marine biology and used that to fund eight years of world travel that was very musically inspired. I'm also a musician and I'd go to a lot of countries where I was really inspired by their musical traditions and learned to teach over there. And then I would take what I learned and incorporate it into music that I was making back here in the U.S. and used that to launch a music project that I played with for several years. It was really fun, enormously fun. Not terribly profitable, but just a really, really beautiful life experience. And in that process of growing a band and trying to make music my life and make that my living started to really come into contact with the necessity of marketing. And you have to get your message out there. You have, it doesn't matter how good what you do is. No one really cares how good what you do, unfortunately, if they don't know about it. If you can't tell your story, if you can't tell people how awesome you are, if you can't find ways to connect with audiences and draw them into whatever it is that you're creating, it's almost a lost cause. I mean I've met lots of incredible musicians, just like really inspired artists, amazing people who are all really struggling. No one's ever heard of them because they don't know how to promote themselves. And so my first real exposure to copywriting was doing Kickstarter campaigns and running copy for our Kickstarter launch and helped script out the video. I mean it was a team effort, for sure, and a lot of outreach and all that. That was the first time I was like, okay, if you want people to give you money you have to write all these words. What do you write? How do you write? That's what I started investigating and doing research online and one thing leads to another. And then as the band grew it was, we got relatively successful. We were playing on large stages at festivals up on the West Coast and having a great time, really great connections with our audiences and everything like that. But even then, you know, life as a touring musician, awesome in a lot of ways, but it's also really grueling and I started looking for other ways to really supplement my income that would allow me to continue this lifestyle of travel, music, art and all these other things I was really passionate about. And freelance, I looked into a lot of different kinds of things. And it was like, okay, what could I do that I am already kind of good at, that is going to make me a better person that is going to be adding valuable skill to my skillset even if I don't do it for very long. So even if I only do this thing for say two, three, four or five years, whatever, I'm going to be way better off because I did that. And so I'm not a designer. I'm not really visually arts inclined. I'm not a programmer. I tried that once. But really it came down to writing. I was like, okay, I know that I can write. I know that I can communicate. It's still creative. And I can start connecting with other businesses and their marketing, which was clearly valuable. And so that kind of kicked me off in this whole journey into copywriting. And after that project I was working with, that relationship ended and stepped out of that. And copywriting really took over. And that's kind of how I ended up where I am now in the short version. Rob:   Cool. So first question. What was the band name? Jeff:    Band name was Yima. It was kind of a- Rob:   Yima. Jeff:    -down tempo kind of organic electronic hybrid thing. They're still playing. Yeah, I'm not playing. Rob:   All right. Well I guess let's check them out on iTunes or wherever people get their music. We'll look for that. But, so you mentioned having to learn how to promote as part of your musical experience and also connect you with the audience. So there are other lessons that you pulled from being a musician that apply directly to what you do in copywriting today. Jeff:    So before the band even, well kind of at the same time, I also spent time as a busker, like a street musician. And it's a similar kind of thing in street music where you see these people, like they can be really amazing street musicians who don't make a lot of money because they're kind of inwardly focused. They're so into their music that they're not really showing it. So kind of showmanship and really connecting with people and giving, to a certain extent, giving people what they want. Giving people something really interesting and engaging to look at. And when it comes to copy it’s like yeah, you as a business, you probably have a lot of really wonderful things you want to say, but is that engaging for anyone else? Is this enjoyable to read? Are you really connecting on what they want to hear and feel? And that sort of empathic, like putting yourself into someone else's shoes I think is really important no matter what. It's like you can be a great musician, but if you're not also entertaining to some degree you're not going to rise to the levels that you would like to be at. There's this really famous YouTube video of one of the top violin players from the New York Philharmonic Orchestra or something like that playing in the New York Subway and making like $25 in an hour when really he gets paid like $10,000 for a single performance. And so you know, the contacts that you surround with whatever creative act that you're doing is really important. The showmanship you put around that and so with copy the contacts that you build around your offer through email, through the supporting copy to build it into this thing that gives them something to really latch onto. One of my friends, one of the biggest assets as a performer is a stage. Having a really good stage, a big stage with lights cells and other stuff, dramatically improves your perception in the eyes of the people watching. Kira:   So I love this idea of figuring out if you're connecting as a musician and caring that through to copywriting. How can copywriters know if they are building that connection while they're actually writing and still doing the work. You know after you launch something you know if it converts or not, but while you're doing it and pulling it together are there any questions that you ask yourself to make sure that it is engaging? Jeff:    Reading out loud, I think, is really helpful. It gives that insight. If I'm reading this out loud and I'm bored reading it out loud no one else is going to enjoy this either. I think your, the emotional state from which you write is also really important because ultimately,

Copywriter Lauren Hazel is our guest for the 143rd episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. Lauren is a hustler who has done a lot in her years as a copywriter. She thinks and writes about brand stories, marketing and email. Once we got her in the studio, we asked about... •  how Lauren accidentally became a copywriter •  how she stumbled onto copywriting when she tried to improve a flyer •  the programs she used to learn her skill set •  what she learned about pricing from her first freelance project •  her cold call pitch that failed and what she learned from the failure •  what she did to grow beyond her first couple of clients •  how changing her title brought her more copywriting and marketing work •  how she splits her time between her marketing agency, training and writing •  what she does in her workshops and how much she charges •  how she packages her strategy work •  the things she has done that have made the biggest difference in her business •  the kinds of clients she works with in her business today •  the mistakes she’s made that she won’t make again •  what it was like to work with 50Cent We also asked Lauren about her program for introverts. To hear what she had to share, click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: CopyHour Lauren’s website Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Intro: Content (for now) Outro: Gravity   Full Transcript: Rob:   This podcast is sponsored by The Copywriter Underground. Kira:   It's our new membership designed for you to help you attract more clients and hit 10K a month consistently. Rob:   For more information or to sign up, go to thecopywriterunderground.com. What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes, and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That's what Kira and I do every week at The Copywriter Club Podcast. Kira:   You're invited to join the club for episode 143 as we chat with copywriter and brand strategist Lauren Hazel about building her business, what it means to hustle and how copywriters can do it better, why every copywriter should have an email list and what to send them, and what it's like to write for a celebrity like 50 Cent. Hey, Lauren, welcome. Lauren:         Hey, how are you all doing? What's up? Kira:   Great. Great to have you here and we want to kick this off, I feel like we should kick it off with 50 Cent and just give that away, but we're going to make people wait for that story. Lauren:         Ah… Kira:   So let's start with your story. How did you end up as a copywriter? Lauren:         By accident. Not intentional. It's like, ‘No, duh duh duh.’ No. So what happened ... Oh God, I'm thinking about my birthday is coming up in a couple of days by the time we're doing this, so. Kira:   Oh, happy birthday. Lauren:         Thank you. So it's nine years probably. Yeah, damn near nine year, almost 10 years here. So, what I, I live in New York City and I had a tutoring business. So, I was trying to find a way to get more tutoring clients. An at that point, I was using either referral system, so I would go to places that I had worked or knew where there were schools that I had volunteered at and asked for, ‘If anyone needs math tutoring, I'm available.’ And then I was doing fliers, because fliers actually still work for those who don't know. Fliers do work. And I was trying to make the flier better, so I was in a group and I was like, ‘Hey, here's my flier. I'm trying to, I'm planning on posting this out in Soho or whatever and see if I can get some clients.’ And folks were like, ‘Give me a hint.’ And then someone said, ‘Hey, why don't you, you should really look into copywriting because you'll then learn how to write a better flier and stuff like that.’ And I'm like, ‘Okay, I know what copywriting is legally.’ And I was like, ‘What is this copywriting thing?’ And so they started pointing me in the direction of some links and then I got on some email lists and then I got into some courses, the courses back then and learning how to write copy, direct response copy, so I can actually write better ads or fliers for my tutoring business at the time. So that's how I started. It was to get some kiddies and some parents to trust me enough to hand me money and your child to teach them some math. Rob:   So, tell us what were some of those resources that you used to get the skills when you were first starting out? Lauren:         Let's see, I'm trying to think. There is a program which is still around called the Copy Hour. I got into that, somebody probably said, ‘Hey, why don't you do Copy Artist?’ Because at the time I was in college at the time, so it wasn't like I wasn't doing anything. I was in college, working part time and doing that thing for student loans purposes. So, they said, ‘Well, Copy Hour would probably be good because it's not as time intensive. So I joined that and, which was a significant investment at the time because I am a college student with limited funds. But my funds was going to pay for books because eventually I planned to go to law school. That's what the thing was. I was going to go to law school. So, which is crazy when you think about what happened now. But that was the one of the plans I had. But at that time because it wasn't like video courses and stuff like that that, it was abundant now, a lot of that stuff wasn't as abundant nine years ago. Like that's, some of that stuff was just kind of coming because tech was an issue. If anyone remembers what it was like to attempt to have a video course and then try to upload it and go through all them tech issues. That stuff didn't exist. So now it's like there's so many easier ways to learn stuff. Back then it wasn't as easy. It was quite difficult. So, Copy Hour was an email delivered course. So that's what I initially started on, Copy Hour. Kira:   So, this is going back, I know, I think you've mentioned eight or nine years, but do you remember any of those changes that you made to your fliers after sitting through a couple of those trainings or reading through those emails, what changes did you make to the fliers to improve them? Lauren:         Oh, like a call to action would have been nice. Listen, I, and it's funny because I come from a background where I've puzzled and didn't, done things, but in terms of writing an actual flier to get a client for that type of service. And in New York it should be abundant because New York is very big on education and things like that. So, if you say you're tutor, you could tutor French or stuff. You can usually get clients relatively easily. But at that time I was charging higher prices than what the normal was. Like if that was like nine years ago, let's say $10 an hour was let's say the average price of a tutor. And these are tutors who are New York City educators who are, teachers. Certified, trusted people. And I'm like, ‘I'm not in New York state teacher, but I'm going to charge you 50 to 60 bucks an hour.’ That was, yeah, that was pretty steep. I was making that kind of, so when your flier just can't be this, right? So actually having a call to action, like, ‘Hey, call this number.’ The concept of putting a package together because I didn't have that. It was just like, okay, well, Monday through Friday, these are our hours. But the concept of packaging your offer to give people options, having at least two or three packages and different pricing tiers and all that stuff. I learned looking at different sales letters and stuff, the way that program goes. But I didn't know any of that. So my flier was basically, ‘Hi, my name is Lauren. I tutor math, Pre-Algebra and Algebra. If you're looking for a tutor, my name is Lauren.’ That's pretty much what the flier was. Kira:   Sold. Lauren:         Yeah, sold. That was it. That was it. Sold. So, when I went through that and I started, it was like, okay, so now I'm making the change and I understand a bit about why I'm making the changes and, that I was making at the time. Rob:   So, how did you go from writing for yourself and your own tutoring business to writing for other clients? What did those first projects and clients look like? Lauren:         It was like a couple of years into it. I had my business built up. I turned the tutoring business because I was a, I follow like [inaudible] safety and that's when you get, earn one K. I got that program and I was going through that and I was like, ‘you know what?’ They started bringing, like you could sell courses. I remember this still early course thing, technology-wise. So this is not easy as it is, teachable stuff today. So I was like, ‘All right, how would I do this?’ And at that time there wasn't, it wasn't like on YouTube where everybody was uploading, there was no Kind Academy. Let's just say that the Kind Academy didn't exist. Okay? And so I'm pre Kind Academy, I'm like, how can I grow this bigger without all of my time? Because I'm still in college.. I'm in college, I have other responsibilities outside of that. And I had this one-on-one tutoring thing, even though I'm charging a lot of money to do that because I'm paying my way through school. So, what winds up happening is I heard, ‘Oh, you could freelance and get more money.’ And I was like, ‘ Well, that sounds doable.’ I figured if I can get clients for my thing, I can do it for somebody else and get them clients. So I figured, let me take a dive and see what that was going to, how that was going to work. And at the time my major was in a business, so I was, we had to do these projects where we actually work with businesses anyway.