The Copywriter Club Podcast

Speaking coach and consultant, Lanie Presswood, is our guest for the 161st episode of The Copywriter Club podcast. Lanie coached both of us (Kira and Rob) as we scripted and delivered our presentations at our copywriting event, The Copywriter Club In Real Life. We asked Lanie to join us to talk about public speaking, what to do (and not do) on stage and this long list of other topics we covered: •  her journey to becoming a public speaker and speaking consultant •  some of Lanie's early successes •  the time Rob ruined Hillary Weiss’ presentation at TCCIRL •  how to deal with stage fright when getting up to speak •  the best ways to prepare a presentation that an audience wants to see •  how to “lay out” a presentation to get attention and persuade •  the 5 parts of a speech: definitions, scope, explanation, description, illustration •  the biggest mistake presenters make when giving a speech •  what a speaker can expect from the audience •  physicality—what to do with your hands and body as you speak •  things you should never do as a speaker •  whether you should play a “role” on stage (you don’t have to be Gary V) •  developing the “skill” of public speaking… no one is born an expert •  Lanie’s advice to anyone who thinks they don’t have anything to talk about •  whether or not you should write out your speech ahead of time •  the difference between video presentations and live presentations We also asked Lanie about the future of public speaking (a little twist on the question we usually end with). To learn more about how you can use public speaking to grow your authority, click the play button below, or download the episode to your favorite podcast player. Readers scroll down for a full transcript.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Hillary Weiss Presswood Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground   Full Transcript: Rob:   What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That's what Kira and I do every week at The Copywriter Club Podcast. Kira:   You're invited to join the club for episode 161 as we chat with professor, communications expert, and public speaking consultant Lanie Presswood about speaking from the stage, what makes a good presentation, the simple things we can do to communicate more clearly, and how to avoid the worst mistakes speakers make. Welcome, Lanie. Lanie:            Hello. Thank you so much for having me here. Kira:   I feel like this was a long time coming. Especially considering you helped both of us with our presentations at TCC In Real Life this past year. So, we're excited to dig into that and talk more about you and your story. Let's kick it off with your story. How did you end up as a public speaking consultant and professor? Lanie:            So, I got into competitive speech and debate as a high schooler. And I was very bent on being a journalist at this point in time. I'm about 15, very, very opinionated, have lots of thoughts, and I think I'm going to storm down the doors of a newsroom somewhere in the nebulous future and right away they're going to hire me to just take on big names and bash in some skulls and change the world. This was my vision for myself. So, I knew that to do that I needed to get into a good college and therefore I needed a lot of extracurriculars. But unfortunately, I was really not particularly physically gifted and therefore I was really looking for a lot of things to do that didn't involve me having to go outside and run. I also wanted to get away from the legacy of my older brothers. Two years older than me, and he was very talented and very smart and extremely popular. So, I was really trying to find something to do at that point in my high school career that would just belong to me. And that's how I wandered into forensics, which is speech and debate, not cutting apart dead bodies and investigating crime scenes for the purposes of the next hour. And I was terrible. So, so bad. I just had paralyzing stage fright whenever I had to get up in front of people. Would turn this bright purple color. It's a flush that started in my chest and kind of worked its way up my face. My hands would shake, my knees would knock, my voice would shake. Just all the sights and sounds of terrible public speaking. I was so, so bad. But, I started to learn very slowly, a little bit about what different audiences and different types of judges were looking for, about what was consistent across every different kind of speaking occasion and what sort of changed every time you stood up in front of a different group of people. But I got to the end of my high school career and I was like all right, I've learned things, I have improved, I've started to gently chip away at that stage fright, but I think I want to do other things. So, I went to college, I got in, my boodle of extracurriculars worked. And I was like, ‘All right, I'm don't with that now, I'm going to do something else. Maybe the radio station.’ I was excited about the radio station. And so I had a friend who was two years older than me, who I'd gone to high school with, who knew someone else on the speech team and was like, ‘Hey, you got to join the speech team here like you were in high school, because my friend needs a partner for this paired event.’ And I said, ‘Eh’. I wasn't super into that idea. But I didn't have any friends, and I was like, okay, I'll give it a try to get some friends and maybe I'll just do it for a little bit and then jump ship and do something else instead. Which of course is not what happened. I got immediately sucked in and really just loved it. I loved being able to travel around the country. That team took me to Portland, Oregon, to Austin, Texas, to everywhere in between. And I got intoxicated with the thought of winning. Because I figured out that once you actually spent hours per week planning and writing and practicing and being coached one on one by a professional, you can improve pretty quickly. So, I started to get better, I started to get over my stage fright, and then I started to win. And once I started to win, I was just hooked for life. So eventually over the course of my four years in college, I won multiple individual state championships. I went to out rounds, to final rounds in multiple events at one of our national tournaments. And I was even a national championship winner in impromptu speaking at one of our national championships, which was very exciting. And I'm still proud of that, bring it up whenever possible. So, got very successful through college, really learned how to shape my arguments and what worked well for me as a speaker. Once again, throughout the course of this somehow realized that I was never going to be a journalist. So I decided well, if I can't be a journalist, I'm just going to stay in school. Ended up going to graduate school to focus on rhetoric and communication. Which is the fancy words for public speaking, really. I was like, ‘Okay, now I'm definitely done with forensics. I've been doing it for seven years, that's a lot. I'm definitely going to move on.’ And then they offered me an assistantship position. They offered to pay for my graduate school if I went to Ohio University and coached. And I said, ‘Well, all right, I guess if I have to.’ So once again I got drawn back in and I spent another four years on the other side of the bench coaching students and shepherding them around the country. And learned a lot about what some common errors are and how other people manifest those same feelings of stage fright that I had been feeling all those years ago. And how to used my own experience to talk them through it. At the same time was teaching in the classroom as a graduate instructor. And kind of started to think about how students who weren't motivated to spend all of their free time doing competitive speaking, needed to be worked through some of those issues. So that takes us up to the graduation from my PhD program and becoming Dr. Presswood and my first real grown up lady job, which was at Hollins University in Roanoke, Virginia. And I was running their Gen Ed public speaking program and giving other professors ideas for how to help their students. And I created this lovely toolkit that we handed out to everybody in this instructor's handbook. And it was wonderful, but the school was very small. We're talking like 800 students small. So, I had a lot of free time. And that's about the point where Hillary Weiss, who is now, just as of a few weeks ago, my sister-in-law, came up to me and said, ‘Hey, I have this large speaking event coming up. Can you help me prepare for it?’ And I said, ‘I would love nothing more in the entire world than that.’ And that's what launched me into consulting and specifically into working with copywriters who need some help or assistance turning their brilliant written thoughts into brilliant spoken thoughts. And that just about catches us up to how I met you, Rob and Kira and where I am today. Rob:   Yeah, speaking of copywriters who need help with their spoken thoughts. I think we both qualify there for sure. There's so much to unpack here Lanie, but before we do that, I want to know about those first couple of speeches that you were giving or even in college, what kinds of things were you talking about? Maybe you even still have some of them memorized, you can give us a [crosstalk 00:07:31]. Lanie:            Oh lord, I really do not. I wish I did for you, that would be excellent. In high school I was doing some of the more ... Like I started some of the more theatrical events because competitive speech and debate also involves some interpretive theatrical monologue kind of events.

Brand expert and one-woman SNL skit, Rachael Kay Albers is our guest for the 160th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. Fitting all the characters Rachael plays on her YouTube channel into the TCC studio wasn't easy, but we managed. In addition to meeting several of the characters from her show (hey, Rachael's mom and Brad!), we also talked about: •  how she went from law school to business comedian and content writer •  how Rachael found her first clients (it has to do with cam shafts and pepper spray) •  going from small clients to internet sensation (wigs played a part) •  what she did to grow her authority and get attention •  how her internet show has helped her grow her business •  the time required to produce a high-quality video show •  the simplicity of her earlier shows and how she evolved as she got better •  the different characters who show up on Rachael’s show •  the truth about how comfortable Rachael is on every show •  how to use comparison, exaggeration and specifics to be funny •  brand strategy and what Rachael does for her clients •  how she helps clients discover a brand that reflects who they really are •  the questions to think through as you develop your own brand •  the tools she uses to help her clients develop really good content •  how she collaborates with the different people on her team •  the other tactics she’s used to grow her business (besides the web show) •  the mistakes copywriters are making when it comes to marketing We also talked about speaking on stage, the change she’s making to her business moving forward, and the future of copywriting. Want to hear it? Click the play button below or subscribe with your favorite podcast app. Prefer to read? Scroll down for a full transcript.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Upwork Awkward Marketing Laura Belgray Justin Blackman Comedians in Cars Getting Coffee Basecamp Dubsado Amy Porterfield's Digital Course Academy Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground   Full Transcript: Kira:   What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes, and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That's what Rob and I do every week at The Copywriter Club Podcast. Rob:   You're invited to join the club for episode 160 as we chat with content strategist and business comedian, Rachael Kay Albers about how she became the One-Woman Saturday Night live of business comedy, what it takes to build an unforgettable brand, the different kinds of humor that copywriters can tap into for themselves and their clients and creating content that people want to see. Kira:   Hey Rachael. Rob:   Hey Rachael. Rachael:       Well, hey there. How are you doing? Kira:   Welcome. I feel like I ever wrote the same for recorded that. I feel like I'm in the room with the celebrity, like an SNL celebrity. Rob:   Or 10 celebrities. 10 different celebrities. Rachael:       It's so mutual. Yeah, there's about 30 of us here. I got wigs and for every voice I do I'm putting on in different wigs. So just imagine that. Kira:   You've got great wigs and great costumes, which I definitely want to talk about. But let's kick this off with your story. How did you end up as a creative director / digital strategist / business comedian? Rachael:       Well, I kind of came at it backwards. Because, the whole thing these days is... The dream is to quit your day job and go live in a beautiful place and drink Margaritas in a hammock. But I actually did kind of the opposite way. I was in law school, 10 years ago and it wasn't working out. It was a bad move. It was the wrong choice. And I had done an internship in Southern Mexico, where I kind of learned about this type of theater that was being used as a tool for social change. And I was really attracted to that. So I decided to move to Mexico. And in order to do this non-profit work with theater and the arts and youth, and while I was there, I'm like, okay, so how do I stay here? I do I get some tacos. How do I keep doing this thing? I had a background in marketing, I had a background in coding and design. And so, I decided to kind of hang my shingle. But it wasn't because I wanted to be an entrepreneur. It wasn't because I was wanting to be a digital nomad. It was because I wanted to keep living in Mexico doing that work. And kind of fell in love with entrepreneurship. In the beginning I did not care about my business. I was like, whatever. I didn't care about the online marketing world. I did my things, shut off my computer and I was done living my life. But along the journey, I kind of fell in love with doing this work and running my own, what became a mini agency and... So that's all she wrote. Here we are today. Rob:   Yeah. So before we jump all the way to where we are today, I'm really curious the switch and how you found your first clients. I can totally relate to the, law school was a mistake thing. I didn't actually get into law school, but I took the LSAT, I had applied and fortunately my career took a different direction. Obviously, there's something big that happens there as you decide to do something different. What did you start doing and how did you find your first clients? Rachael:       Well, before there was Upwork, there was something called Elance, where you could go on and find various odd digital jobs. And that's exactly what I did. And in the early days, I was doing everything from copywriting and ghost writing to transcribing classic car videos. I learned a lot about cam shafts and torque and doing these weird jobs. I wrote back when it was popular to write these keyword-stuffed articles. I wrote keyword articles about mace and pepper spray. And I mean, I did it at all and I designed websites and I wrote courses for my clients and scripts for their webinars. And so, it was on Elance, just various odd jobs. Rob:   That's awesome. Okay, so how do you go from lancer then to business comedian? Because, there's another big shift there. Rachael:       You know what? I don't know. So I got a few... As happens with these types of sites and kind of getting your first class, you get a few clients, the ball starts rolling, they start telling their friends. And then I was able to quickly stop getting jobs like that. Stop getting those $20 for a hundred keyword articles or stuff like that. And started really niching down into focusing on brand strategy and web design and development and overall content strategy. And that's what I started to focus on. And that's what I did up until I left Mexico, which was end of 2016. When I got to the States, suddenly this whole world opened for me, that I didn't have when I was working remotely out overseas. Because the internet speed is just a totally different universe down there. I think I have 10 megabytes per second or less. I was working on down there, it was like training in high altitude. Because I come back to the States where everything is lightning speed. Now suddenly, I can do video, I can access tools and things that I wasn't able to do down there. So I just started messing around with Facebook Live and my Facebook Live show was like me hopping on as a talking head, just chatting about marketing for 20 minutes every Wednesday. I started playing around with some different kind of funny formats. I did a live musical couple of years ago, Facebook live, the musical jumped on and literally performed a One-Woman Musical. I had costume changes, all of it was live. People freaked out. They loved it. It got tons of traction. And that's when a little bell road gate went off for me and I said, okay wait, wait, wait. It's not enough to just be talking about marketing, It's this entertainment value that really is the key to getting people to come back and share and comment and engage. So, that's when I started... That's when I bought a bunch of wigs. Bought a bunch of wigs, just got a green screen and decided to play around with bringing some characters into the show and people loved it. And that's how I decided to pivot this show to becoming kind of like a little sketch comedy business show my show Awkward Marketing and gave myself the, business comedian. I just decided, that's what I am. I am a comedian that talks about business. So, let's put a ring on, you know what I'm saying? So, yeah. Kira:   So once you realized that you wanted to take the show to the next level and you bought all your wigs, what else did you do to really put it out there and put more attention into that show? Rachael:       Well, when I first brought the wigs out for their first walk around the catwalk, I did a huge big... It was actually two years ago, or was a couple of years ago. It was during Halloween. I did this huge five day promotion and I ran a giveaway and I put a ton of energy behind. I put ad money on it because I wanted to make sure if I was putting a ton of production into the videos that I was actually getting eyeballs on them, and I wasn't just relying on the organic stuff. And that was enough to get people's heads turned, so that when I debuted a full new season in this format, people were ready. Because I was building my list through giveaways and promotions and that kind of thing. So that when I kind of came out as, all right, this is the new format of the show formally, I had people kind of ready and waiting for it. Rob:   Awesome. So as you do the show, how does that impact your business? Do you find the... Clients see the show and they come to you or does it go the other way? How do they all come together and how does that play such a... I guess, what is the place that that plays in your marketing for your business? Rachael:       Yeah, so Awkward Marketing serves a few different purposes for me.

Copywriter Matt Hall joins us in the studio for the 159th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. Matt is a member of The Copywriter Think Tank and has a ton of experience as a copywriter and agency owner. He's worked in-house, as an agency employee, and has started his own agency—twice. Here's what we talked about: •  the high school experience that made him want to know everything •  how he decides what he needs to learn next—without the stress of keeping up •  getting permission to be different and not live up to other’s expectations •  the system he uses to stay up-to-date on his favorite topics •  why he made the shift from eternal student to content writer and strategist •  working with a variety of clients •  why he likes to do a lot of different kinds of work •  the different roles a copywriter can choose (and why to do each one) •  his biggest struggle as a business owner •  his $30K month and the work he had to deliver •  the challenge and benefit of working with a spouse •  his system for managing all the house-hold stuff so work gets done •  the practice that keeps him from having a scarcity mindset •  how he attracts clients to his freelance business •  his thoughts about the trends in conversion copy and design This is a good discussion you definitely don't want to miss. To hear it, click the play button below or subscribe with your favorite podcast app. You'll find a full transcript below.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Kajabi Rob Braddock The Dunning Krueger Effect Prerna Malik Linda Perry Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground   Full Transcript:   Rob:   What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes, and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That's what Kira and I do every week at The Copywriter Club Podcast. Kira:   You're invited to join the club for Episode 159 as we chat with copywriter and all-around renaissance man, Matt Hall, about how he became a copywriter, different roles copywriters can take on and how they all compare, conversion design, what it is and how copywriters should think about conversion, and what Matt has done to bring business in the door for his agency. Welcome, Matt. Matt:   Hi. Really happy to be here. Kira:   Yeah. Great to have you. I have this huge smile on my face and I don't know if it's the cold Chinese food I'm eating or if it's just ... I'm so excited to hang out with you. So let's kick this off with your story. How did you end up as a renaissance man/conversion, optimization socialist/copywriter/many other things? Matt:   All of the things. I'm hoping more of a jack of all trades rather than a master of none. But it started back in high school and I overheard a conversation when I was like, 14. And some of my classmates were talking about one of our friends saying, ‘She is so interesting. She can talk about literally anything, like your car's dashboard and she knows about it.’ And something about the idea of being able to engage with somebody over literally any topic at any given time and actually know what you're talking about really connected with me. And that stuck with me, even when I was an undergrad, I did a master's in English with the focus on professional writing, but I got ... I built my own minor. It was a combination of graph design and PR and building documents with tech and just combining a whole bunch of things. I ended up having something like 200 credits when they finally kicked me out school and said, ‘You got to graduate, dude. It's time to go.’ And then I went and got a Master's in American studies which is another field that's like combining a few different fields. American studies lives on the edge of English but also history and a little bit of psychology or whatever you want to do. So I've always been really interested and gravitated towards the kind of work where you can apply knowledge and experience from a lot of different areas and put it together towards making a project even more successful than it could have been maybe if you had one singular focus. So now that I'm doing copywriting/web development/CRO/UX, all the stuff put together, it turned out to be a really ... a great way for me to bring my passions to life, keep my work interesting. And also, I think bring a better experience to my clients and the people I work with. Rob:   So before we jump into how you made the switch to copywriter from student, can you talk just a little bit about, you have a framework for learning. How do you decide what you want to learn next or how you take what you're learning and you apply it to become the renaissance person and jack of all trades so that that information becomes useful and whatever it is that you're doing for clients or for business building, whatever the thing is? Matt:   I'm naturally a really neurotic person. And the idea of FOMO, of academic FOMO drives me crazy. So if there's something that I don't know, like if somebody is using a framework that I'm not familiar with, or somebody references a book. Just yesterday, I came across an acronym I had never heard of. And I go into not quite panic mode, but like, ‘Hey, what is this? What does this mean? Am I missing something? Are people going to talk about something that I need to know?’ I’ve been kind of channeling that anxiety into something productive by constantly diving in and just learning something new. I think we live in this incredible period in human history where you're like one Google search away from learning literally anything you need to. So the only thing holding…if anybody is listening to this podcast, the only thing holding them back is just a little bit of effort on their part. There's no information that we don't have access to, usually for free, that we can just find a little bit of work and something about that inspires me. I think that there's ... A big part of my identity is the idea that we should be continuously learning and growing and improving throughout life. Money comes and goes but the things you learn, even in the book you got for a dollar can stick with you your entire life. So I've always seen it as just an investment in my ability to do more, to be more effective at serving other people because I can connect with them in different ways. And I think that just drives my interest in trying to learn something new. And of course, there's courses, there's YouTube videos, there's so many different ways we can learn things nowadays. I think you just have to know yourself and know how you learn best and then run with that. Kira:   Yeah. The idea of being a renaissance man or woman has always been attractive to me and I wanted to be that person, but I also feel like the idea that really stresses me out, because even as you're talking through this, I feel stressed because it's so hard to keep up with everything today. So what advice would you give to us if we want to be that person that knows everything? And we are curious, how to do it in a way that doesn't exhaust ourselves and is sustainable because I feel like when I'm on that track and I'm in renaissance mode, I end up burning out and then I just have to go a week ... multiple weeks where I just don't do anything or think about anything because I'm so burned out from overlearning. Clearly, I'm not doing this right. So how do you do it in a way that's healthy? You alluded to the fact that it's ... there's a dark side to it too. So more of us can do it in a way that is effective and yet, we don't burn out. Matt:   Yeah. That's a great question. And I think the first thing I'd want to say is this isn't for everybody. There are people out there ... There's Joanna Wiebe who's known for being an excellent conversion copywriter. She invented the field. A classic example, I will never be Joanna Wiebe because there's not one thing that I'm leaning into so hard and so far that my entire identity is going to be based around that. And that works for her. I think what you have to do is figure out what kind of person you are. And Kira, this might not work for you, right? And that's okay. I think that we don't always have to be ... We don't have to live up to other people's terms or identities, which I think is one of the wonderful things about the gigantic community we can be a part of. There's room for everybody. There's room for everybody to be themselves and be a little bit different. So let's start with that. Number two, my ... A lot of the things that I do, I have developed systems, RSS readers, Feedly for example. I use Feedly like crazy. I just have all my websites dumped in there and then I'll just look through all these different feeds. So what I do is instead of looking at just entertainment or just Reddit or whatever, I'll have a lot of preselected topics that I'm interested in that I can then keep on top of. So it's probably not the healthiest thing because it's like that typical social media distraction. I'm just creating custom social media feeds, little custom echo chambers that I've ... where I've chosen what the content is going to be. Put those all together so that when I'm bored, I'm scrolling through something that's productive rather than just dumb news. I actually don't really watch the news. I 100% don't watch the news on TV, CNN or Fox or any of those channels. I stay away from that because that's just like brain-numbing. It's just meant to get you angry and outraged and whatever. I can't even watch John Oliver clips anymore because it just ... I know what it's doing. I know it's meant to just to get me angry but it's not really meant to get me to think. So instead, I choose what media I consume through these feeds and then probably spend ... too much time-consuming at all.

Samar Owais, content expert and email copywriter is our guest for the 158th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. This one has been a long time coming... this is our fourth attempt to make this interview happen and it is worth the wait. Kira and Rob ask Samar about a lot of stuff from email to being the only person at TCCIRL with a hijab. Here's the list of what we asked: •  how Samar built her content business and charged $1000 per blog post •  what content writers should be doing to build their business •  why she “transitioned” from content to conversion-oriented email copy •  what she does to find clients for her business right now •  what email sequences should use in their business •  the 4 phases of her process and what she accomplishes in each phase •  the things she struggles within her business •  how she storyboards emails to make sure the sequence does what it should •  how she tracks her success—and gets access to all of her client’s numbers •  why she offers to help implement the emails she writes •  how she packages her services and what she charges for an engagement •  her writing process and how she applies her strategy to each project •  the impact of the pivot—from content to email—on her business •  her experience attending TCCIRL last year (and why you should go this year) •  what she experienced as the only hijab-wearing Muslim woman at the event and why we need more people from all backgrounds at all copywriting events •  how she deals with self-sabotage and how we can stop doing that to ourselves •  who she relies on to help her get things done •  her advice for anyone who wants to specialize in email copy •  what’s next for Samar in her business Like we wrote above, this one is worth the wait. To hear all the advice Samar had to share, Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript. Or download the episode to your favorite podcast app (and don't forget to subscribe so you won't miss future episodes).   The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Paul Jarvis Copyblogger Copyhackers Val Geisler Prerna Malik Eman Zabi TCCIRL The Copywriter Underground Chanti Zak Samar's website Samar’s Twitter Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground   Full Transcript: Kira:   What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes and their habits, then steal and idea or two to inspire your own work? That's what Rob and I do every week at The Copywriter Club Podcast. Rob:   You're invited to join the Club for episode 158 as we chat with copywriter, Samar Owais about going from $5 blog posts to assignments that pay more than 50 times that much today. How she finds good clients, willing to pay her rates. What she did to write for clients like Copyblogger, Men with Pens, and Mercy, and how she stays productive while raising a young family. Hey, Samar. Kira:   Samar, welcome. Samar:           Hi, guys, how are you? Kira:   So good, so good to talk to you. This has been a long time in the making. I think this is our fourth attempt to make this interview happen, but I'm feeling, I think we're all feeling good. This is going to happen and we're really excited to talk to you today. So, let's just kick off with your story. How did you end up as an email copywriter? Samar:           Mostly through trial and error. So, before I was an email copywriter, I was a content writer. I spent about eight years building my business and authority. Wrote for clients like Paul Jarvis, and big brands like Marriott and Intercontinental. Got published in places like Copyblogger and Founder. My business as a content writer was at a pretty sweet spot, to be honest. But then, three things happened. One, I got more interested in pursuing the ROI of the content that I was writing, but my clients weren't. Two, I hit the ceiling at $1,000 a blog post, and couldn't seem to find clients willing to pay me more than that. And the ones that were paying me a thousand dollars expected the sun and the moon, without measuring the ROI again, so this was really frustrating. And three, I'd begun to hate waking up in the morning and writing content. There was just no joy in my workday anymore, and I thought I was just burned out. So, as I was grappling with all this when Joanna Wiebe, Copyhackers launched her 10X Freelance Copywriter Course. I figured if there was one person who could help me break the $1000 ceiling and teach me how to convince clients to measure the ROI of the content that they were publishing online, it was Joanna. So, as I worked through the course, I realized that it wasn't that I was burned out, it was that I was just no longer interested in writing content anymore. And that's when I started experimenting with writing other kinds of copy. I tried my hand at landing pages, hated that. I tried writing a sales page. I sucked at that. And I didn't even want to touch writing website copy, because I had no idea how to measure the ROI of that, and it feels too much of a hassle. Around this time, I started talking to Val Geisler. She was in the 10X course with me, and Val is incredibly focused. She took everything Jo taught us in the course and applied it. And as a result, she was seeing this incredible growth in her business, to the point where she had more work than she could handle and was looking to subcontract some of it. So, I reached out to her. I told her I wanted to try my hand at email copywriting, and that even though I had no experience, I was a fast learner, never missed a deadline, and I didn't make the same mistake twice. So, Val being the amazing person and entrepreneur that she is, took a chance on me, and she gave me two weeks to write an email sequence. I think it was a re-engagement email sequence. I spent the first week just learning about email copywriting. I think it spent four to six hours a day, just consuming as much as information as I could. And I loved every minute of it. But the time I wrote the sequence, I'd found my copywriting specialty. And that was almost two years ago. I haven't looked back since. Rob:   Wow, okay. So, a lot to unpack here, but before we jump into email, I'd love to go talk a little bit about content, and the content that you're writing, because I imagine there are a lot of people who heard you say, ‘$1,000 per blog post,’ that just about swallowed their lunch, in one bite maybe. We see people who are struggling sometimes, to make a hundred dollars per blog post, and so can you talk a little bit about how, when you started out, you were able to up-level your business to the point where you could get $1,000? What did you do? How did you find the right clients? What was the kind of content you were writing? Samar:           So, I guess posted a lot. And I wasn't as prolific as Prerna (Malik) was in her guest posting, but I was extremely strategic. So, I would only hit a guest post on the blogs that were read by my prospective clients. So, mostly marketing and small business blogs. So, I guest posted on Copyblogger, and it was this humongous, 5,000 plus word blog post, which went onto stay in their popular blog post roster that was at the site of their main homepage for 12 months. And it kept bringing me clients. Every month, I would get queries from prospective clients, who would ask me, who would defer to that blog post. And every few clients, I would just keep raising my rates. And it would scare me so much, like $450, $500, $700 and every jump I would be sweating. It's like, ‘They're not going to accept it. They're not going to accept it. They're going to see right through me.’ But they kept accepting it. But also, their expectations also just began to balloon. So, that $1,000 blog post may sound like a lot of money, but it required me interviewing 30 people, and putting together listical of quotes, of experts, and if you've ever ... You guys do interviews with the podcast, and you know how hard it is to get somebody to give you a quote on email. And I mean, just this podcast took two years in the making, so you can imagine how hard it was. So, it was gratifying when it was done, but that entire process was just too much of a hassle for me, and I was at a point where I wasn't willing to work at those rates anymore, and I wanted to charge three times that for the amount of work and hours that I was putting in. And obviously, I couldn't find anybody. Kira:   Okay, so I know you've pivoted and again, we're going to talk about email. But, before we wrap this up, what would you do differently, if you were still interested and excited by the content side okay of your business and building that out, what changes would you make, to make that work for your business today? Samar:           I would be making myself more visible. I would be hosting webinars, talking on podcasts about getting ROI from the stuff that you publish online, and just tying the concept of money to my work. Because when clients see that your work can get them more business, more money, it's a lot easier for them to justify the expense to themselves, to their bosses, to whoever is calling the shots. Rob:   Very cool, so switching a little bit now towards what you're doing today, aside from subcontracting, how are you finding clients? How have you made the switch from finding content-based clients to email based clients? Samar:           Okay, so two ways. Referrals and pitches. I let my clients and connections know that I was working as an email copywriter now, and that I have an opening, and ask for introductions. And one of the things that I do is that I'm always looking for gaps in my prospective clients' email funnels, and then I pitch them. So, that's how I landed Copyhackers as a client.

Copywriter and expert cold emailer, Laura Lopuch, is our guest for the 157th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. In this interview, Kira, Rob and Laura covered a lot of ground when it comes to what to say when you're cold pitching new prospects. Here's a pretty good list of what we covered: •  the path Laura took from paralegal to copywriter •  what made her decide it was time for a job change •  how she attracted her first clients when she went out on her own •  how to cold pitch effectively •  the difference between personalization and relevance and why it matters •  the thing that no one talks about when it comes to cold emails •  what Laura does BEFORE she starts to write a cold pitch •  why you might need to indulge your inner stalker when you cold pitch •  how to tell if a potential client is ready to invest in what you can offer •  the best way to phrase the call to action so you get results •  the subject lines that work well—Laura’s “backslash secret” •  the ways a cold pitch email differs from a regular email to your list •  how she figured out the niche to focus on in her business •  the basics of a good presentation and how it all comes together •  why she doesn’t focus her mentorship on learning •  how she became a travel hacker so she could travel for free •  where Laura thinks copywriting will go in the future •  the templates she used to land +$20K in business If that seems like a lot, it is. And it's good stuff. To hear this interview, click the play button below or subscribe to The Copywriter Club Podcast using your favorite podcast app. And if you prefer to read, you can scroll down for a full transcript.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Crystalknows Copyhackers Shine Bootcamp MicroConf Hayley Hopson Tarzan Kay thepointsguy.com Laura's website Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground   Full Transcript: Rob:   What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That's what Kira and I do every week at The Copywriter Club Podcast. Kira:   You're invited to join the club for episode 157 as we chat with email copywriter, Laura Lopuch about why she loves writing emails, the worst mistakes we make when writing emails, the relevancy method and how to structure a cold pitch so potential clients become actual clients, and how she became a travel hacker. Kira:   Welcome Laura. Rob:   Hey Laura. Laura:            Thanks guys for having me. I'm very excited to be here. Kira:   Yeah, we're excited to chat and we want to kick this off with your story. So how did you end up as a copywriter? Laura:            I took a long detour through the legal field. I thought I wanted to be a lawyer. You can blame Jerry Maguire and all those awesome John Grisham novels and all that kind of stuff for it. I just thought, yeah, this would be cool. I like arguing. I could be a lawyer. So I did something smart and actually took a job at a law firm to see real world experience if A, I wanted to be a lawyer, before I spent B, all that money to get a fancy dancy law degree. Fast forward a couple of years and I figured out no, I didn't want to be a lawyer. But it was a really good job and I was learning a lot. I really liked the stories. We were a civil defense law firm. For example, if you get in a car accident, we were usually the insurance for the law firm that your insurance company would hire to defend you against the plaintiff, the person who's suing you. So I got to see some really interesting cases and stories. People do some crazy, crazy stuff, let me tell you. But I got seduced by a steady paycheck and a good job, until I just couldn't take it anymore and I quit. And so at that point I was like, I don't want to go back and deal with lawyers. I was kind of tired of that industry. I knew I wanted to work for myself. I was tired of being under a boss. So I was kind of taking stock of the skills that I had. I've always been a writer. Majored in English lit and it came in really handy working at the law firm. That analysis brain type, putting things together, examining things, keeping track of details and writing killer emails to persuade people to do stuff that they really didn't want to do. Because who out there wants to actually work with a lawyer, even if it's your own lawyer? Nobody. So I was writing a lot of emails that were convincing people to do things that they really didn't want to do. Like show up and testify at trial, maybe hunt down documents from like five years ago, sort through that old closet and find some stupid document. And I was doing a lot of it by email because number one, I hate the phone. Hate the phone. Took me two weeks one time to schedule a 10-minute meeting for my job. And I was supposed to do it. It wasn't even like- Rob:   Yeah, you really hate the phone. Yeah. It was intense. Sweating, staring at the phone. I remember sitting there staring at it like it was like some monster out to eat me. It was ... Yeah. And the second reason why I used email was CYA. A very legalese term called cover your bum, basically. And you had to document everything in the law field so that it never ended up in a he said she said kind of argument. So email is the perfect medium for that. So when I struck out on my own, I figured I might as well use that skill that I've been honing for the past eight years, emails, and see if I could actually make money off of it. Turns out, you totally can. Rob:   So yeah, let's talk about that decision to bail out on the law firm because you were there for quite a while and what was the thing that made you say yeah, I've got to do this on my own, it's time? Laura:            That's a good question. I had actually quit the firm about four years before that. Gone to a different firm. I'd tried to leave before and I always got seduced back. Steady paycheck, I had a mortgage, all those real life adult things. But this time I left because of a contract dispute with my boss. And so, we had worked out a verbal agreement where there would be money after I'd worked on this case. You know, kind of a bonus of sorts. And this is actually a lesson that I have taken and applied in my own business every time I work with a client and it's something I see a lot of copywriters not doing, which makes me sad. And that's I never got our agreement in writing. So when the time came for him to pay up and actually come good on his side of the agreement, he didn't. And I got super mad and that's what finally spurred me to action, to actually quit. And for good this time. Kira:   So Laura, what did the early days of your business look like? Once you were in it and building the business, how did you get clients, how did you gain traction? Laura:            I just used cold emails. I didn't have a budget. I had like a $200 a month client when I quit. So I was forced to be as creative as possible. And I decided to use cold emails. Looking back, I don't really know what possessed me to use cold emails. But over about four months I was writing like 20 cold emails a week and sending them out and doing tons and tons of tests and then revising them based on the responses or lack of responses. I got a lot of those too. And seeing what was working and what wasn't working, until they started taking off. Rob:   So let's talk a little bit more about cold emails, because this is something that you specialize in and you even teach other people how to do it well. I think that you've had a lot of success. First of all, why should writers do cold email and second of all, how do we do it so that clients will actually say yes? Laura:            Yeah. I think actually copywriters are in the perfect position to do cold emails because you already have the writing skills that you need to put together a good email. You already know how to write well. You don't have to learn that. You already have that skill in your tool belt, so that automatically places you in the upper 1% of people who send cold emails in a really effective way. And then for the second part, how do you actually send a cold email that works? That would be, you use the relevancy method. And that is, you aim for your cold email to be as highly relevant to your recipient as you possibly can. So you're not winging it, you're actually finding out who that person is on the other side of the screen that's reading your email and how you could best pitch them using relevancy and tying your pitch into their business goals and showing them and connecting those dots in between like, here's why you should be doing this. Or here's where your gap is and here's how I can help you and here's why it matters. And you frame it all, you put it all with relevancy. Which is a little bit higher than just personalization. Which people usually think of like, adding someone's company name and first name. But being relevant is actually the secret sauce. Kira:   Can you share any examples that you've sent? Maybe even one that was relevant and did work well. And then I'd love to also hear about one that didn't work that was not relevant and fell flat. Laura:            Yeah. Definitely. Let's see, I'll start with the non-relevant one, because that's the first one that's coming to mind. Basically it's a very I centered email. So for example like, if I sent an email ... And I did this at the beginning of sending cold emails when I was first starting to get clients, trying to get them. Where it's me, me, me, I could do, I'm a copywriter, hey look at me, I can write words and I can help you. And that kind of leaves the reader going, ‘Yeah I don't really care.’ But when you write an email with them in mind,

Sometimes we like to try a little something different with the podcast and today's interview is a bit different than our standard. Preacher, coach and copywriter Les Hughes is our guest for the 156th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. We talked to Les about ..... •  how awesome, giving and kind Kira is •  the path from preacher to business coach •  what he did to build his platform as he pivoted his “business” •  having the right mindset before you make a shift •  trusting the process (and mentors and a higher power) •  what he would have done differently—and faster—if he did it again •  the tactics that helped him move forward quickly •  what he does today and the success he has found •  what copywriters can do to build their own authority to serve their own clients •  why you need to create a success path for your clients •  how to get your clients to help you serve them more effectively •  the importance of humility •  how he helps his own clients thing more strategically •  Les’ writing process and what helps him improve his writing •  how to prepare for adversity (but hope for the best) •  the place service to others plays in a successful business To hear it all, download this episode to your favorite podcast player or click the play button below. If you're a reader, scroll down for a full transcript.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Ray Edwards Mel Abraham Stu McLaren Tribe Jim Rohn Zig Ziglar Joni Eareckson Tada (athlete, painter) Les' website Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground   Full Transcript: Kira:   What if you can hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That's what Rob and I do every week at The Copywriter Club Podcast. Rob:   You're invited to join the club for Episode 156 as we chat with preacher, business coach and strategist Les Hughes about his surprising career path, how we can think more strategically about our own businesses, what he does to help his clients transform their businesses and the power of volunteer work to change lives. Kira:   Welcome, Les. Rob:   Hey, Les. Les:    Thank you all both. Kira, great to talk with you again. Rob, great to talk with you as well. I really look forward to our conversation today. Kira:   It's so great to hear your voice. We met in Ray Edward's Mastermind last year and it was so great to meet you. I'm just happy to hang out with you for the next hour because it's been a while since we've chatted. Let's kick this off with your story, Les. How did you end up as a preacher, a pastor to pastors, a coach, a strategist to business leaders, a copywriter and many other things? Les:    I will do that and thank you for asking. Before I do, I'd like to share if I could take a point of peripheral privilege, so I'm going to ask for forgiveness rather than permission, okay? Kira, the people that know you are going to know what I'm going to say, but maybe new listeners or those that only listen to your podcast. Kira:   You're making me nervous. Les:    Well, don't be. It's going to be good. Listen, it's going to be a little uncomfortable for you, but that's all right. I want your audience to know what a giving and servant-hearted person you are genuinely. I think that doesn't come always across on your podcast because you're also very professional and objective and friendly and all of that. You're a very organized person, but I want the people that are listening this to know that you are one of the most giving, kind, empathetic people in this space that I've met. I just wanted to say that. I don't know if I've ever told you that, but I wanted you to know that. Les:    When we began our relationship in the mastermind group together, you were certainly further ahead than many of us in terms of your business. Boy, you came into that group with a servant's heart and have been so helpful to me personally. Thank you for the things that you've done. Now- Rob:   It's nice praise. Les:    I'll be glad to tell the story. Kira:   Thank you, Les. That's very kind of you. Les:    You're welcome. I began sensing as a very young adult, actually probably a senior in high school, that there was something pulling on me. I realized later on it was someone and that was God. I just felt as if there was a sense of calling on my life to do something in terms of ministry. I had grown up in that environment. Both of my parents were faithful followers of Jesus. That was the environment that I was raised in. As I got to making those decisions on my own, it began to become my faith and not just my parents' faith. I did not believe it first that that was going to be pastorate because by nature I'm a major introvert. The pastors that I had had as I was growing up were larger-than-life figures. They were magnetic and charismatic and never seen like they met a stranger. That certainly wasn't me. As I grew, I just realized that God had made me the way he made me for a reason and that I didn't need to be anyone else. God had them. He made them. I just began to grow into that. I learned later on that going to that calling that is and then I learned later on that this concept of calling, it's not only for people who are professional ministers, it can be for anyone. Where we get the word vocation from is actually voca. It's Latin word that means to call. Before we got in the modern era and make this distinction between the sacred and the secular, people had much more of a holistic view of the world as being sacred and whether someone was a carpenter or an artist or a pastor, it was all calling. That's all where that all started. To put a transition point in a nutshell, about 2015, I came to the end of about a three-year fight. It was a struggle between leadership in a church that I served at the time. It really came to a hit. It came to point. All I'd really done in ministry life is pastor a local church, but it really got to a point in terms of knocking heads with some leadership in the direction that I was leading versus the direction that many of them, some of them wanted to go. After that fight, it was just time for me to go. The best thing for me to do for especially my family, my wife and I, and the environment that we were in, it was just not healthy for us at that time. Though we weren't angry at the ministry overall or certainly didn't blame God, there were a few individuals that just caused us to reevaluate where we were, and we ended up leaving that local church. There I was trying to figure out what was going to be next. Even though I wasn't an employee of a local church anymore, I still had this sense of calling on my life that had to do with teaching scripture in a very practical and relevant way for people to understand and life transformation and faith and people, just ministering to people and helping people put with life stuff. That didn't change, though I wasn't an employee of the church. I began to look at other ways to have that kind of ministry that led me to many people in our space, especially years ago such as Michael Hyatt and others that talk about having a platform. I began to do a lot of homework and a lot of research and then tried somethings. I just began blogging and writing. I had published a book, so there was some in my background. Writing is really just another ... It's a manifestation of a teaching platform or a teaching ministry. Then doors just began to evolve and open up. We can go into some of those specifics as you all like, but that's really what my transformation was like. Although my wife and I still serve the local church and we love ministry, I've got sons now, adult sons that are also pastoring local churches. I want them and other pastors too to know that ... Believe it or not, there are about 1,500 pastors of churches that are leaving their ministry every month. A lot of them don't know what to do now. I'm trying to mentor and coach some of them as well as my own sons to say, ‘Maybe God's desire for you, maybe His mission for you is more vast than only that one-local church setting.’ It certainly includes that, but that's what I'm helping people do now, including my own sons. My wife used to talk about just trusting God for our income and trusting God for our livelihood and we certainly do, but those people sometimes, that's a little different story. I just saw that it was unwise to put all your eggs in one basket. This is the economy that we're living in now, not only in ministry, but I think most vocations. It's much more of a freelance economy where we're the CEO of our own organization, so it's really up to us. Rob:   Les, as you made that transition in your life from being a pastor of the church to the next step, will you talk through how you thought about the platform that you needed to build and the different things, I know you mentioned blogging and the writing that you were doing, but the other things that you did to start building your authority as you were building this platform to go after the next group of people that you could help? Les:    Sure, Rob. I think the hardest part was probably the mindset of all that because the inner as well as the outer voices, we like security and safety and the known. It's a little fearful to go out there into the unknown, but I would say mine evolves of course with time. I'm a researcher. I love to study. I love to prepare and do the work of that as well as deliver it. What happen was I just got to a point in my life even before I left that particular ministry, that particular church,

Marketing OG, Nigel Stevens, is our guest for the 155th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. Nigel is in the middle of a move from Asia to Spain and we caught him as he was packing his bags to talk about the business he's built, his experience in content marketing and SEO, and maybe most interesting... how to raise your prices and up level the clients you work with. Here's what we covered... •  how he turned an English degree into a position as the marketing OG •  why he left a cushy job in San Francisco to create his best job •  what it takes to build an agency from the ground up •  the early days… how he started finding clients and growing his leverage •  how he grew his confidence charging more money •  value based pricing and getting better referrals •  his discovery and proposal process and what he wants to learn •  how to build your portfolio of clients (most copywriters won’t do this) •  what’s working (and not working) right now in content marketing •  how he figures out what kind of content to create for clients •  what copywriters need to know about SEO (Nigel’s answer surprised us) •  how he helps clients understand the right approach to SEO content •  how he’s built his authority to engender trust with his clients •  the future of content marketing It's a good discussion that will get you thinking about the kind of business you're building and the next steps. To hear it, click the play button below, or download the episode to your favorite podcast player. Readers can scroll down for a full transcript.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Nigel’s website Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground   Full Transcript: Rob:   What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, the work processes, and their habits, then steal and idea or two to inspire your own work? That's what Kira and I do every week at The Copywriter Club Podcast. Kira:   You're invited to join the club for episode 155 as we chat with marketing specialist, Nigel Stevens, about what it takes to build a marketing agency, what copywriters need to know about SEO, building authority, attracting, and working with really big clients, and what it's like to live and work in Barcelona. Kira:   Welcome, Nigel. Nigel: Thanks, great to be here. Kira:   Yeah, great to have you here, and we're going to see you in just a couple weeks in Barcelona because you will be presenting at our Think Tank retreat, so excited to meet you in person. Until then, we can get to hear all about your story today. So why don't you share your story and how you ended up as the marketing OG? Nigel: Yeah, so it's a little bit of a winding story as it tends to go. So, I got an English degree, got out of school, realized I had no idea what I wanted to do, somehow found my way into a job doing copywriting for this weird mattress startup that no longer exists anymore. And then, I got a job offer to be a SEO analyst, which I was exactly zero percent qualified to do. But I somehow got the job, and I went from being more of a kind of writer and qualitative marketer to then having to also pick up some quantitative skills, and then I had a couple more jobs, worked at BigCommerce for a while, e-commerce platform doing kind of a combination of SEO and content marketing. And then, after a little while there, I decided I kind of wanted to blow up my life. So, I left my job, moved to Thailand and then started taking on work. And it escalated quickly, one thing led to another. And now, I have a team, and we work with various SaaS clients and other companies. So that's the summary. Rob:   Yes, quick summary, but can we talk a little bit about at least this last section of your career, building an agency and what has taken to do that? I'm sure we can ask other questions about some of the stuff you've done earlier, but really curious, what does it take to build an agency that big companies are willing to work with? Nigel: Yeah, so I guess to... you got to put one foot in front of the other, and the first foot is you have to have a connection to something. So, when I'd left BigCommerce, they were still really interested in working with me, and that was my first thing. And then, through a couple people I knew there, someone hit me up and said, ‘Hey, do you want to help with this site?’ And I really didn't even know when I'd left my job, how much do I want to work anymore? I was sort of totally willing to do everything or nothing. I didn't really know. And then, I got an intro and started working on one thing. And then, as I got one more intro, I reached this little inflection point where I was like, ‘Okay, I've said yes to things because they're really cool opportunities, and if I want to say yes to anything else, my time does not scale linearly with these opportunities, so I'm going to have to get help.’ And that was a huge inflection point for me. And I think it's a really big decision that people have to make and decide what they want. Because on the one hand, you have a lot more to just... trade-offs are everything, right? You have ultimate flexibility when you work with yourself. Because you can say yes to things, you can say no to things, you're sort of... all the commitments you make are up to you. And then, when you bring on other people, it's sort of like you're raising the stakes a little bit. And, yeah, I feel like that's not the question you asked originally, but that's where I ended up. Kira:   Yeah, and I do want to hear more about your team and structure and growth, but first, I can't overlook you blowing up your life, in your own words. Blowing up your life, leaving your job, moving to Thailand, taking your cat, can you just tell us... let's just talk about that. Where were you living at the time? What did your life look like at that time? How did you decide... What was the impetus to decide that you wanted to leave? Just, what happened? Nigel: Yeah, so I was in San Francisco and everything was cool. I had a good job, it was comfortable, I liked the work I was doing. I worked with great people, and I knew that I had to leave because I had everything that should have been perfect on paper and I still wanted to leave. So I took that as a sign that, ‘Oh, there's just other stuff I want to do.’ And just everybody's sort of cut out for different things. I've talked to super talented people who I think could do way better than me for example as sort of building their own company or as consultants, but it's just not what they want. And it was just sort of something in the way I've constructed. I don't know. I just didn't want to be in an office every day and I didn't just want to just leave the job. One was practical purposes, I was in San Francisco, so if you leave your job in San Francisco, you have San Francisco run rate hanging over you. That's pretty scary. But I also just wanted to do something super random and put myself in a position where if I woke up without a job what would I do? And I didn't want to be in a position where I was financially forced to work, and then I could talk myself into having to do it. I just wanted to figure out that I did want to do it. So, the irony is I left my job sort of ready to be a hippie in the mountains in Thailand, and then ended up taking on way more work and running a company. But since I did it on my own terms, I never felt like, ‘Oh, I have to do this, I have to do this.’ I was like, ‘Oh, this is a cool opportunity, I could work on this,’ and ‘Oh, I want to keep doing this and saying yes. So, I guess I'd better get some more support with everything I'm doing.’ Rob:   Can you talk a little bit more about that? What was that transition like, and how did you start reaching out to or finding the clients you started doing even more work with? How did that all develop in the early days? Nigel: Yeah, so it really is sort of like building the foundation of a house where... having success is... whether you want to call it the agency or freelancer or consultant or whatever, it's your leveraging the trust that people have in you. And every project you can work on and have a success, you can then contribute to your narrative. And then, you have a stronger narrative, and you have more people that can speak to that narrative. At first I had this narrative of, ‘Oh, I worked at BigCommerce.’ And we did really cool things there. I think in a short period of time, we 8X'd their organic blog traffic. We were scaling it really quickly. And that was the first part of the story. But it's still in a company. I was working with a lot of other people, and I was a little less confident. And then, when I got a opportunity at another startup, and it was actually... I didn't have to make up a story. They had to raise money within four months and grow their traffic. And if they didn't do that, the company might've collapsed. And I came on with a friend of mine who sort of sourced the opportunity but didn't have time to work on it. And I worked on it with him, and that went well. And then, after that, I had the combination of those two stories. And then, sort of people I knew from both of those places were a lot more willing to recommend me. And then, when people came to them with opportunities, then they could say, ‘Oh, Nigel has done this at this place, and that at that place.’ And then, having done both of those, I went from being not very confident to like, ‘Oh, maybe I am okay and can do a decent job at this.’ And then, you do a third one, and it kind of just multiplies and multiplies like that. Kira:   Okay, so it sounds like clearly experience helps build confidence which helps really build a business. What else did you do around this time that really helped accelerate your business growth?

Copywriter and expert researcher, Hannah Shamji, joins us in the ultra-plush Copywriter Club studio for our 154th episode. Hannah has been making a name for her self doing research for Copyhackers Agency and we wanted to learn more about how she does it. We asked Hannah about: •  how she went from boring public policy to copywriter and research specialist •  The catalyst  for making her career change •  how her previous experience helped her make the jump more quickly •  the first steps she took as a new copywriter (and started looking for clients) •  what it feels like to find clients when you don’t know everything yet •  Hannah’s research process… goals, questions, hypothesis •  how to define the goals for research so you know what’s most important •  the kinds of data she looks for as she does her research •  the one thing she always does when asking questions •  two things you can do immediately that will help you do research better •  the mistakes most copywriters make when conducting research •  the bad questions you probably shouldn’t ask •  how to get clients excited about research •  what you don’t know (that you should know) about interviews Want to improve your research chops. Then add this one to your favorite podcast app. Or click the play button below. If you prefer reading, scroll down for a full transcript.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: The copywriter therapist post Hannah’s website Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Intro: Content (for now) Outro: Gravity   Full Transcript: Kira:   What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That's what Rob and I do every week at The Copywriter Club Podcast. Rob:   You're invited to join the club for episode 154 as we chat with conversion copywriter Hannah Shamji about how she became a copywriter, the best way to get good voice of customer data, how to conduct a great interview, her role at Copy Hackers, and how psychology makes her a better copywriter. Kira:   Hey, Hannah. Welcome. Rob:   Hey, Hannah. Hannah:        Thank you. Hey, guys. Kira:   All right, Hannah. This conversation has been a long time coming. We've had to reschedule a couple times, but we're really excited to chat with you and really dig into some of your processes around research and experiences. But before we do that, let's kick it off with your story, how did you become a copywriter and researcher? Hannah:        Yeah, for sure. Well, I'm super excited to be here thanks for having me on. My story is kind of meandering as I feel a lot of folks are. I have a bachelor's in psychology, a master's in public health and jumped into public health policy and research. So pretty heavy in the academic side of research, and kind of government policy development, pretty boring words to most folks, myself included. And I think it was about like five-ish years ago that I... Maybe four years ago, and I just kind of pump the brakes, looked up the clock. It was 10:08, I remember the time exactly and decided I was just going to quit. So I handed in my resignation the next day and had zero idea of what I was going to do, and I didn't even really think about clearly planning that before. So it was a few hops before I found copywriting. I had my own jewelry business, I did affiliate marketing, a t-shirt business, and kind of just hopped around. And I started a counseling training program which was a three year program. I just graduated from that last year. And it was on that path that I've always liked writing, enjoyed writing, and came across one of Copy Hackers' blogs. I think it's written by Sam Woods, and it's talking about the theory of copywriters towards therapists, and that blend which was exactly the line I was interested in. So that kind of pulled me into the copywriting moment very quickly afterwards I joined the mastermind, Joanna's copywriter mastermind. So that was maybe like a month turn around there from well, copywriting exists to signing up for that program. And that was like a year long stint. So I just kind of was like eyeballs deep in learning copywriting, and had awesome experience interacting with Joanna and kind of learning from her, from the get-go. So that was kind of the first foray there. And more recently into research that is something that I would say is maybe even like six to eight months old in terms of conversion research. I've kind of been hopping around with copywriting trying to find my niche and listening a bunch to your guys podcast, just sort of figuring out what clicked. And a few copywriters asked me if I would do research for them, and that kind of stemmed out of them knowing my counseling and psychology background. And it kind of just happened organically that I fell into the research side and the customer interview specifically. It just seem like a really natural fit, and here we are. Rob:   Wow. There's a ton of things that we can ask about based out of your story, but first of all I'm amazed at how quickly you went from finding out about copywriting to jumping right into it, and investing in that way. I mean, the mastermind was not an inexpensive program. So why do you think that you were able to make that jump so quickly? Was it because of all of the things that you've tried and your background in psychology or something else? Hannah:        I would have to say... I mean, this is probably more of a testament to sales copy, and Joanna as a copywriter than anything else. I think the marriage of this psychology with copywriting was just so appealing to me, and I thought why not out of the gate start with a training and a course that I knew would equip me well. Why tinker around with something I was less sure about or smaller potatoes. I had done by that point a lot of like reading books and combing through blog posts. I'm pretty quick to act and absorb a lot of information if I'm really into something. So for me it just made good business sense to try and invest in one thing that I felt confident in from the get-go, and just get that ongoing support so that I had something and it wasn't just like diving in and then pulling out and kind of having to sink or swim, I had that continuity. So that for me was really powerful. Mind you, it was not a small investment, but an investment nonetheless. Kira:   Hannah, can you take us back five years to that night at 10:08 p.m. when you're sitting at your computer and you resigned from your job. I just want to know what led up to that and that's quite a big change. So what was going on through your mind? Was it just like you were done and you were ready or what what happens in that moment at 10:08? Hannah:        Yeah. It was a very visceral memory there. I had just moved downtown with my husband and we were talking a lot about starting our own business, and kind of getting out of the nine to five grind. And the more we talked about it, the more clarity I had into the way I was spending my hours, just on any given day, and it was so excruciating. Just the kind of share meaninglessness of what I felt the work I was doing was especially in a government organization there's a lot of hierarchy, a lot of politics, and you tend to have a giant gap between what you do and the actual output and results, which after a while depending on where you are on that ladder is challenged. And I just wanted this kind of ownership of my own thing. I didn't really know what that would be at the time. I tend to fly by the seat of my pants when I am inspired. So it kind of just... And it wasn't something like my parents still bugged me about the fact that this was like not communicated. It was like I just made this decision executed and it was one of those ask for permission or ask for forgiveness, not permission type thing. So they were definitely having grown up in an environment where education was super important and kind of thoughtful, release mindful decisions getting a secure job. This definitely went against the grain. So it's one of those like thrills, exciting and then a bit of panic mixed in there all at once. Kira:   From that experience and looking back, what advice would you give to someone who's making a big career change potentially like that overnight? Would you do anything differently or is there anything that you wish you would have had after 10:09 after when you resigned? Hannah:        I think my biggest takeaway from that is that it's okay to question assumptions. And by assumptions, I mean sort of the mainstream that even if you have been raised with a particular mindset or people around you are operating in a certain norm that doesn't necessarily mean it has to be okay for you. And I think that that can feel kind of scary. There could be a lot of instances than there was for myself of normalizing something or trying to justify a scenario that I just didn't like. And so questioning assumptions and not being okay, and that there are alternatives that I think it's more about seeing things as I've come to learn as a challenge, and less of a problem, less of feeling stuck. I mean, granted that's like a work in progress, but those are the two bigger takeaways that I would offer. Rob:   So Hannah, as you stepped away from that and then stepped into copywriting, what did you do, what were the first steps to get your business going to find clients and to really step into your new role? Hannah:        So by the time... When I joined the Copy Hackers mastermind, copywriter mastermind, I didn't... I mean, I just had very little clue. And so my goal there was why figure this out on my own when I have the resources to have someone kind of help me steer the ship.

Conversion content writer, Doug Paton, is the guest for the 153rd episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. We've known Doug since the beginning days of The Copywriter Club, so it's about time we had him on the show to talk about his approach to content writing. We asked Doug all about: •  his favorite place to fly fish (in British Columbia) •  how “not wanting to talk to people” led to his career choices •  why he chose content as his focus as a copywriter •  his stint writing books for kids—and how he landed it •  how he applies his experience writing for kids to his work today •  his process for writing content and how he grabs attention •  how he pitches new clients on content projects •  what he done to build his network and the result on his work load •  what Doug would do if he had to start all over •  his definition of “conversion content” and how its different from other content •  what he’s done to land amazing clients like National Geographic •  what he still struggles with in spite of his recent success •  how he balances work with being a dad and the other demands on his time •  what’s next in his business and what the future holds for copywriting To hear what Doug had to share, click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript. You can also subscribe and download this episode to your favorite podcast player (recommended). Don't miss this one.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Justin Blackman Shanelle Mullins Jessica Mehring Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Intro: Content (for now) Outro: Gravity   Full Transcript: Transcript delayed but on its way soon...

Continuing what’s been a bit of a theme on the show lately, we invited copywriter Mai-kee Tsang to talk about how to pitch podcasts for the 152nd episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. Mai-kee recently set a goal to pitch 101 podcasts in 30 days, and she joined Kira and Rob to talk about how she did it, what she learned, and the impact the project had on her business. During our discussion, we asked her: •  how Mai-kee finally listened to her heart and became a copywriter •  how she applies ideas from psychology and coaching to her copy •  overcoming fears and how she overcame her fear of acceptance •  developing a habit of trying things regardless of the expected result •  the importance of sales—and why copywriters can’t afford not to sell •  what she did to find her first clients •  how she announced her copywriting business to the world •  why hiding until you’re ready is the wrong approach to launching •  why she took on a “101 podcast pitches” project •  the biggest lessons she learned while pitching podcasts •  the terrible first pitch she sent and what she learned •  the elements of a successful pitch and how Mai-kee personalized each pitch •  how she finds elements to personalize her pitches •  the group program she launching to help others get on more podcasts •  overcoming the idea that you don’t have something to share •  the impact podcasts have had on Mai-kee’s own business If you’ve ever listened to a podcast and though you could do better than the person you heard on the show, this is an episode you won’t want to miss. Combine it with our interview two weeks ago with Brigitte Lyons for best results. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript. Or download the episode to your favorite podcast app and listen wherever you are.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: The Copywriter Think Tank The Podcast Pitching Masterclass Mai-kee’s Website Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Intro: Content (for now) Outro: Gravity   Full Transcript: Transcript to come...