TCC Podcast #154: How to improve the research process with Hannah Shamji

Copywriter and expert researcher, Hannah Shamji, joins us in the ultra-plush Copywriter Club studio for our 154th episode. Hannah has been making a name for her self doing research for Copyhackers Agency and we wanted to learn more about how she does it. We asked Hannah about: •  how she went from boring public policy to copywriter and research specialist •  The catalyst  for making her career change •  how her previous experience helped her make the jump more quickly •  the first steps she took as a new copywriter (and started looking for clients) •  what it feels like to find clients when you don’t know everything yet •  Hannah’s research process… goals, questions, hypothesis •  how to define the goals for research so you know what’s most important •  the kinds of data she looks for as she does her research •  the one thing she always does when asking questions •  two things you can do immediately that will help you do research better •  the mistakes most copywriters make when conducting research •  the bad questions you probably shouldn’t ask •  how to get clients excited about research •  what you don’t know (that you should know) about interviews Want to improve your research chops. Then add this one to your favorite podcast app. Or click the play button below. If you prefer reading, scroll down for a full transcript.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: The copywriter therapist post Hannah’s website Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Intro: Content (for now) Outro: Gravity   Full Transcript: Kira:   What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That's what Rob and I do every week at The Copywriter Club Podcast. Rob:   You're invited to join the club for episode 154 as we chat with conversion copywriter Hannah Shamji about how she became a copywriter, the best way to get good voice of customer data, how to conduct a great interview, her role at Copy Hackers, and how psychology makes her a better copywriter. Kira:   Hey, Hannah. Welcome. Rob:   Hey, Hannah. Hannah:        Thank you. Hey, guys. Kira:   All right, Hannah. This conversation has been a long time coming. We've had to reschedule a couple times, but we're really excited to chat with you and really dig into some of your processes around research and experiences. But before we do that, let's kick it off with your story, how did you become a copywriter and researcher? Hannah:        Yeah, for sure. Well, I'm super excited to be here thanks for having me on. My story is kind of meandering as I feel a lot of folks are. I have a bachelor's in psychology, a master's in public health and jumped into public health policy and research. So pretty heavy in the academic side of research, and kind of government policy development, pretty boring words to most folks, myself included. And I think it was about like five-ish years ago that I... Maybe four years ago, and I just kind of pump the brakes, looked up the clock. It was 10:08, I remember the time exactly and decided I was just going to quit. So I handed in my resignation the next day and had zero idea of what I was going to do, and I didn't even really think about clearly planning that before. So it was a few hops before I found copywriting. I had my own jewelry business, I did affiliate marketing, a t-shirt business, and kind of just hopped around. And I started a counseling training program which was a three year program. I just graduated from that last year. And it was on that path that I've always liked writing, enjoyed writing, and came across one of Copy Hackers' blogs. I think it's written by Sam Woods, and it's talking about the theory of copywriters towards therapists, and that blend which was exactly the line I was interested in. So that kind of pulled me into the copywriting moment very quickly afterwards I joined the mastermind, Joanna's copywriter mastermind. So that was maybe like a month turn around there from well, copywriting exists to signing up for that program. And that was like a year long stint. So I just kind of was like eyeballs deep in learning copywriting, and had awesome experience interacting with Joanna and kind of learning from her, from the get-go. So that was kind of the first foray there. And more recently into research that is something that I would say is maybe even like six to eight months old in terms of conversion research. I've kind of been hopping around with copywriting trying to find my niche and listening a bunch to your guys podcast, just sort of figuring out what clicked. And a few copywriters asked me if I would do research for them, and that kind of stemmed out of them knowing my counseling and psychology background. And it kind of just happened organically that I fell into the research side and the customer interview specifically. It just seem like a really natural fit, and here we are. Rob:   Wow. There's a ton of things that we can ask about based out of your story, but first of all I'm amazed at how quickly you went from finding out about copywriting to jumping right into it, and investing in that way. I mean, the mastermind was not an inexpensive program. So why do you think that you were able to make that jump so quickly? Was it because of all of the things that you've tried and your background in psychology or something else? Hannah:        I would have to say... I mean, this is probably more of a testament to sales copy, and Joanna as a copywriter than anything else. I think the marriage of this psychology with copywriting was just so appealing to me, and I thought why not out of the gate start with a training and a course that I knew would equip me well. Why tinker around with something I was less sure about or smaller potatoes. I had done by that point a lot of like reading books and combing through blog posts. I'm pretty quick to act and absorb a lot of information if I'm really into something. So for me it just made good business sense to try and invest in one thing that I felt confident in from the get-go, and just get that ongoing support so that I had something and it wasn't just like diving in and then pulling out and kind of having to sink or swim, I had that continuity. So that for me was really powerful. Mind you, it was not a small investment, but an investment nonetheless. Kira:   Hannah, can you take us back five years to that night at 10:08 p.m. when you're sitting at your computer and you resigned from your job. I just want to know what led up to that and that's quite a big change. So what was going on through your mind? Was it just like you were done and you were ready or what what happens in that moment at 10:08? Hannah:        Yeah. It was a very visceral memory there. I had just moved downtown with my husband and we were talking a lot about starting our own business, and kind of getting out of the nine to five grind. And the more we talked about it, the more clarity I had into the way I was spending my hours, just on any given day, and it was so excruciating. Just the kind of share meaninglessness of what I felt the work I was doing was especially in a government organization there's a lot of hierarchy, a lot of politics, and you tend to have a giant gap between what you do and the actual output and results, which after a while depending on where you are on that ladder is challenged. And I just wanted this kind of ownership of my own thing. I didn't really know what that would be at the time. I tend to fly by the seat of my pants when I am inspired. So it kind of just... And it wasn't something like my parents still bugged me about the fact that this was like not communicated. It was like I just made this decision executed and it was one of those ask for permission or ask for forgiveness, not permission type thing. So they were definitely having grown up in an environment where education was super important and kind of thoughtful, release mindful decisions getting a secure job. This definitely went against the grain. So it's one of those like thrills, exciting and then a bit of panic mixed in there all at once. Kira:   From that experience and looking back, what advice would you give to someone who's making a big career change potentially like that overnight? Would you do anything differently or is there anything that you wish you would have had after 10:09 after when you resigned? Hannah:        I think my biggest takeaway from that is that it's okay to question assumptions. And by assumptions, I mean sort of the mainstream that even if you have been raised with a particular mindset or people around you are operating in a certain norm that doesn't necessarily mean it has to be okay for you. And I think that that can feel kind of scary. There could be a lot of instances than there was for myself of normalizing something or trying to justify a scenario that I just didn't like. And so questioning assumptions and not being okay, and that there are alternatives that I think it's more about seeing things as I've come to learn as a challenge, and less of a problem, less of feeling stuck. I mean, granted that's like a work in progress, but those are the two bigger takeaways that I would offer. Rob:   So Hannah, as you stepped away from that and then stepped into copywriting, what did you do, what were the first steps to get your business going to find clients and to really step into your new role? Hannah:        So by the time... When I joined the Copy Hackers mastermind, copywriter mastermind, I didn't... I mean, I just had very little clue. And so my goal there was why figure this out on my own when I have the resources to have someone kind of help me steer the ship.