The Copywriter Club Podcast

Rob Marsh

Ideas and habits worth stealing from top copywriters.

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Jan 21, 2020 • 1h 4min

TCC Podcast #166: Getting More from Your Copywriting Business with Ashlee Berghoff

Online Business Manager, Ashlee Berghoff, is our guest for the 166th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. Ashlee has helped a bunch of copywriters we know and like figure out how to make their businesses more profitable... and just as importantly, helped them focus on the work they are best at (while shifting other work to a VA or OBM). That sounded like something we needed to hear more about. So we asked Ashee about ..... • how she became an independent business manager/COO for copywriters • the 10 months she spent working to prevent human trafficking at IJM • when you should get help in your copywriting business • the different kinds of VAs and other help you might consider hiring • some examples of how she works with copywriters to grow • the systems she helps her clients develop as they start working together • the importance of discipline as you set up processes in your biz • what it really costs to work with an integrator versus a VA (and what you get) • the easiest systems to build that almost everyone needs right now • the return on investment when you spend money on a VA or OBM • the true cost of doing the work that others could be doing for less • how to keep your VA relationship from falling apart • some of the problems you should anticipate to keep the relationship working • where to find the best VAs… the answer may surprise you • what you need to put into a contract versus email • how to deal with problems when thing inevitably go wrong • the tools Ashlee uses in her business If you have a sneaky suspicion that your business could be doing better and that you need help to make that happen, you'll want to listen to this episode now. Click the play button below or subscribe using your favorite podcast app. Or scroll down to read a full transcript. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: International Justice Mission Global Fund to End Modern Slavery Rocketfuel Angie Colie April Dykman Asana Jira Asquaredonline.com Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Full Transcript: Kira: What if you're going to hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That's what Rob and I do every week at The Copywriter Club Podcast. Rob: You're invited to join the Club for Episode 166 as we chat with business integrator Ashlee Berghoff about how to know when you're ready to bring in help for your business, the systems and processes copywriters need to grow, practical ways copywriters can expand their capacity and exactly what a VA or OBM can help you do in your business. Kira: Welcome, Ashlee. Rob: Hey Ashlee. Ashlee: Thank you so much for inviting me. It's wonderful to be here. Kira: Yes, we're excited to have you here because you worked with, I don't know- Rob: Everybody. Kira: ...six to eight, maybe even more copywriters. You don't have to name drop all the copywriters, but you've worked with a lot of well-known, successful copywriters that we've hung out with and we know really well too. So, we'll get a behind the scenes look at the type of work that you're doing with them. But before we dig into that, let's start with your story. How did you end up as an integrator, OBM? I know there are multiple titles for it. Yes, how did this all happen? Ashlee: Yes, so I think as is the case for so many people, it was not a straight line at all. I actually graduated with an English degree and no idea what to do with my life. And in my first major job, I ended up in the Philippines actually working as kind of a de facto recruiter for an anti-trafficking field office there, did that for about 10 months, built out their recruiting program from scratch, which was really fun for me, but I didn't know why, just that it was a really amazing experience. And then, when I came back to the States, I worked in staffing for and then ended up at a publicly traded financial services consulting firm for a couple of years working in operations and project management there. And as I was doing that, I realized that I loved the type of work that I was doing and I was good at it, but it wasn't the right industry for me and it wasn't the right kind of work culture for me. And I was going to school for my MBA at Georgetown in the evenings and as I was getting close to graduating from that, kind of all the pieces started coming together for me. I kind of started realizing, wait, I organized for fun as a kid and I made lesson plans and report cards for my stuffed animals. And that's not normal for 12-year olds to do. And I loved taking things that were really messy and organizing them and bringing order and calm to them. And the reason I loved my job at IJM was because I got to build templates and checklists and trackers and plans, and all of these things, and I'm sure I overwhelmed the poor intern coming after me with all of that stuff. And so, I started realizing, wait, this is something that comes really naturally to me and that I really love, but that a lot of people don't love. And maybe there's an opportunity here. I wanted the autonomy, I wanted to build something for myself, I wanted to have the flexibility to adjust my business and my career around the needs of our family as it grew. And so it seemed like the perfect opportunity to try it out, see if I could do what I was doing at the consulting firm, but for small businesses, basically just helping them run everything, make things happen, and kind of take that weight of running everything themselves off their shoulders. So, a couple of years ago, I essentially started out as a souped up VA, I called myself an independent business manager. Found my first three clients on Facebook after failing to find anything clients on Upwork. And after doing that for a while, I realized that really the area that I was providing the most support and value was in helping them design their processes and build out the structure they needed to kind of mature as a business and expand their capacity without having to add a bunch more hours or overhead. So that's where I've really focused a lot of my energy and in my programs this year and going into next year are all about making that transition from kind of a scrappy freelancer to bonafide business, and organizing all of the pieces that go into that. Rob: So, before we get into all the stuff that we teased in the intro and how you help copywriters, you mentioned your experience with trafficking, anti-trafficking, and I'm assuming you're talking about human trafficking. Will you tell us a little bit about that experience because first of all, we've never talked about that. Obviously, it's this crazy thing that's going on in the world and such an important thing, but tell us a little bit about your experience there and what you did? Ashlee: Yes, so the organization I was with was called International Justice Mission. They're the largest anti-slavery organization in the world. And they purposely go to countries where the law enforcement kind of structures there are failing to protect the poor from violence. And so, they do different kinds of casework depending on the needs of those places, but in the Philippines, we focused on sexual exploitation of minors and commercial sexual exploitation of minors. And it was right around the time that they were realizing that that was happening much, much less on the street and much, much more online, so they were beginning to make the transition towards focusing on cyber trafficking issues, which was a really, really hard time to be there because no one really expected that, the age of the clients that we were working with was much, much younger, we were dealing with families and things like that. And so it was a very hard kind of casework to be getting into and it was a very, very hard year for me to see that. It rocked a little bit. My sense of the world and what evil is and what it takes to combat that effectively. But what was really incredible was working with the colleagues that I had there. All of the kind of full-time staff in our office were Filipino locals, or lawyers, or social workers, everyone who was there and just watching them continue to show up every day was incredible. And so I got the opportunity because we were expanding so much as an office to help them hire 20 more people. It was already an office of 20 and so they were doubling the size of their team. And so my boss was also managing all of the HR and an office move and payroll and insurance and everything that he was doing, and so I had kind of free rein to set this thing up and start trying to find more people for the team. And so I got on the phone with people, confused them quite a bit, they were trying to figure out why they were talking to an American at this company, getting them in for interviews, scheduling that and helping them get on board and sharing my passion for the work with them and getting them excited about joining IJM. And just last year, I got to meet some of them in person again, because they came to the US for a big conference and they were celebrating five years in the office, which was just really, really amazing and fulfilling for me to know that even though I was only there for 10 months, I got to be part of something bigger, helping them join the team so that they could then keep the work going for so much longer. So it was very, very tough and I came back with a lot of stuff I needed to process, but it was one of the best experiences in terms of getting the chance to be on the front lines like that. Kira: Can you share a couple of resources that...

Dec 10, 2019 • 1h 4min

TCC Podcast #165: The Most Interesting Man in the World with Drayton Bird

This one is wild. We invited Drayton Bird (who knew and worked with some of the original mad men) to join us for the 165th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. Drayton has been around the world of advertising and direct marketing since the 1960s and he has the stories to prove it. As we talked, it occurred to us that if Drayton wasn't the inspiration for The Most Interesting Man in the World, he probably should have been. We asked Drayton about: • what happened to him the last time he went to San Diego • how he became a successful copywriter—it’s not about creativity • how he spent his teen-age years and why he carried 2 library cards • Why he couldn’t choose a niche when he started writing • the one thing Drayton says you need to be a good copywriter • the intriguing letter he sent to David Ogilvy that got an immediate reply • the 7 big lessons he learned from David Ogilvy • whether being interesting is something we are or something we become • some of the questions he asks to get better creative work • the legacy he has built and the story he shares in his latest book • the bizarre thing his mother saw his father doing in their living room • the time a stripper nearly killed him hitting him in the face with a plate • the Maori princess who broke his heart when she ran off with a Swedish lawyer • his parents’ crazy, loving and destructive relationship • the advice he got from a Polish Count that saved Drayton’s life • what you need to think about constantly if you really want to be really good at copy Like we said, this one is different from any other interview we've done. You won't want to miss it. Click the play button below to listen (or download the episode to your favorite podcast player), or scroll down to read a full transcript. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: The VW Snowplow Ad David Ogilvy Ogilvy on Advertising Drayton’s Biography (read this page) Drayton's Book Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Full Transcript: This episode is brought to you by The Copywriter Club, In Real Life, our live event in San Diego, March 12th through 14th. Get your tickets now at thecopywriterclub.com/tccirl. Rob: What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That's what Kira and I do every week at The Copywriter Club Podcast. Kira: You're invited to join the club for episode 165 as we chat with one of the original Mad Men, copywriter Drayton Bird about his place among the original Mad Men of advertising, what all copywriters need to master to make their writing better, getting stabbed three times and surviving, and the good advice he got from a Polish count many years ago. Rob: Hey Drayton. Kira: Welcome Drayton. Drayton: Nice to talk to you. And I'll tell you something. I got involved in my most sad most expensive marriage to one of the ladies who did have a go at sticking a knife in me. Well, she didn't ever go, she didn't stick a knife in me, because I was in San Diego. It was all your fault. I'd been doing a speech in Los Angeles and afterward, I went with some friends and we made our way down the coast staying somewhere terribly expensive. I can't remember. And then we went to San Diego Zoo and had one or two drinks and my friends said, ‘Let's go down to Mexico.’ And so we went down to the Mexican border to a dangerous town. I think, I believe one of the most dangerous places in Mexico. And that's where I got married as a result of being intoxicated. Kira: That's a romantic, romantic story. Rob: So are you telling us you're not going to come to San Diego for our event? Is that what you're saying here? Too dangerous? Drayton: Can't afford to come twice. Tijuana, that was where it was. I remember I was driving into Tijuana. No, I looked on the left on the side, it said that you can get married immediately. I was on the right-hand side going on. And on the left-hand side, it said divorce within 24 hours. I thought, ‘What can I possibly lose?’ And I said to this lady, who is actually the widow of my best friend who had killed himself. Well, that's another story. I said, ‘Let's get married.’ And she said, ‘You're kidding.’ I said, ‘No.’ I said, ‘This is a limited time offer.’ I said, ‘You've got to make up your mind before six o'clock.’ So she said, ‘What can we use for a ring’ And I said, ‘You can use the ring of Martin,’ who was my best friend, who had been her husband who killed himself. And then she said, ‘What should we wear? What should I wear?’ I didn't bother about what I was wearing. I don't know whether you've ever tried to shop some Tijuana, looking for something really elegant, but it's not easy. Rob: Yeah, there's a lot of stuff. Drayton: She finally found something and we got married there. There and then. And I would say that it costs me overall in the region of about 3 million pounds that evening. Rob: Wow. Kira: Oh, my goodness. Drayton: But you really want to talk about copywriting, don't you? It's so much more interesting than people... Kira: Well, we want to talk about copywriting and we also want to talk about everything else too and getting stabbed and everything else you've included in your book. But let's start with your story. How did you end up as the top direct marketer and a copywriter? Let's start there. Drayton: I don't know. I think maybe it's perhaps ... If you hang around for long enough, everyone else dies. I think I did reasonably well because before I even became a copywriter, I'd written for a magazine for a while, so I knew how to write. And I think I was helped by the fact that unlike practically everyone I can make out in this business, I wanted to study. And even before I started my first copywriting job, I'd started reading a lot of books about advertising and particularly books written by people who made lots of money or 40 or 50 years before then. I remember reading a fantastic book by a guy who did all the marketing for the international correspondence schools, which if you read it today, would still teach you a lot. I don't think it's so much talent, it's just study. I don't think people study enough. I think that they think, ‘Oh, I'm going to be creative,’ and they go around trying to be creative. This is a big mistake. The first thing to do, if you want to write anything any good, be a copywriter or anything else, is to be sure about what you want to say, not to say, ‘I'm going to be creative.’ Drayton: And you can start by being creative and you can end up anywhere. It might be relevant or not. If you start by doing the right thing, you may end up being creative. It doesn't work the other way around. You first, you're looking for the right idea and then you worry about how to express it. Whereas a lot of people nowadays, and this has always been true, start by trying to do something clever and then the idea will fit in with whatever the hell they're trying to sell. I think that was one reason I did okay. I think the second reason is I was extremely well read, quite young in my routines. Even before that I used to belong to the local public library. And you could only take out three books in a day. I used to read more than three books in a day. So I joined another library. Sometimes I'll read four books a day. I spent a lot of my teenage years reading, reading, reading, reading. And very often reading the kind of things, which you got nothing whatsoever to do with copywriting. But nobody knew what a copywriting was then. I was brought up in a pub in Manchester, outside Manchester. And my father told his cronies in the bar, ‘My son Drayton just got this amazing job. Paid more money than he could believe.’ Copywriting, nobody knew what it was. Nobody knew what it was. What is copywriting? What does he copy? It really wasn't known as a skill. I think also, if you want to be good at anything, you have to be confronted with a lot of challenges. And nowadays, everyone is crazy about digital. They're all talking about digital. I always think of the digital swine running over the cliff. The first four jobs I got in the agency I joined, which took a lot of effort to get into, were all different. One was a piece of direct mail to sell some machinery. One was to sell a local restaurant or a chain of local restaurants. The other two were again, entirely different. I can't remember exactly what they were, one was direct mail, one was an advertisement, one was a salesman’s organizer. The salesman organizer is something that a salesman takes round with him to remind himself of what he's got to say to the customer. Those are the three I can remember. You were expected to be able to do anything. It wasn't regarded as I just do so and so, I just do financial services. I had to do everything. I don't think you can be in any way remarkable unless you have really faced all the challenges and all the media that are open to services. I was lucky in the sense that I had that challenge. And I think a lot of people now specialize in what in English we call niches [neeshes] and in American they're sometimes called niches [nitches]. So I think those are some of the reasons. I think reading a far wider range of things I believe than most people do was a great help. I think I'm particularly fascinated and was fascinated then and still fascinated by 18th and 17th and 16th century writers. People of the same before Shakespeare, after Shakespeare, particularly into the 18th century. I also remember reading Winston Churchill's biography of the Duke of Marlborough who is his ancestor. Three very heavy volumes. I read everything. David Ogilvy was once asked,

Dec 3, 2019 • 60min

TCC Podcast #164: The (not so) secret to getting better at copy with Glenn Fisher

Want to get better at copy? Copywriter and author, Glenn Fisher, joined us for the 164th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast to talk about how he became a copywriter and how he rapidly improved his skills. Today, Glenn teaches other how to start and get better at copywriting on his podcast, in speeches, and in his book. We asked Glenn about: • how copywriting overtook his dream of becoming a bank manager • pitching everyone in London before finding his first job • what he learned from his early mentors that helped him most • Glenn’s process for finding (and testing out) a great idea • the difference between the UK and the USA when it comes to ideas • the lessons he took away from his Tony Robbins experience • whether or not copy and advertising can change a person’s beliefs • the no-secret, “secrets” Glenn has used to grow his skill set • what his business looks like and how he spends his time • the catalyst for writing his book and the process he followed • what he would do differently if he were rewriting his book again • what the book has done to build his credibility and why that’s NOT enough • what he struggles with in his business today • what he would do if he lost everything and had to start over from scratch • why other copywriters aren’t your competition We also asked Glenn about the future of copywriting and where marketing is headed right now. To hear this interview, click the play button below, or download the episode to your favorite podcast app. Or scroll down for a full transcript. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Agora Tony Robbins The End of America Alex Mandossian AWAI Proust The Art of the Click Mary Ellen Tribby Kate Toon All Good Copy Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Full Transcript: This episode is brought to you by The Copywriter Club, In Real Life, our live event in San Diego, March 12th through 14th. Get your tickets now at thecopywriterclub.com/tccirl. Kira: What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes, and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That's what Rob and I do every week at The Copywriter Club Podcast. Rob: You're invited to join the Club for episode 164 as we chat with copywriter and podcaster Glenn Fisher about becoming a direct-response copywriter and writing a book about it, what it takes to write good copy, his writing processes, mistakes he's made, and what he thinks the future of copywriting looks like. Kira: Welcome, Glenn. Rob: Hi, Glenn. Glenn: Hello. Thanks for having me. Kira: So, let's kick this off with your story. How did you end up as a copywriter/author/speaker? Let's hear your story. Glenn: Cool. So, yeah, we'll break it down into parts. As is the case with most copywriters, I got into it completely by mistake. I think I've spoken to you about one out of a thousand copywriters who went, ‘I'm going to be a copywriter.’ I started out as an accountant, which was an obvious mistake, but I did that for a few years and so I wanted to be a bank manager. I've never met anyone else who, as a 15-year-old kid, wanted to be a bank manager, but that's what I wanted to do. And I was going along on that path for a while until something snapped in my brain and went wrong, or maybe right, depending on which way you look at it, and I figured I wanted to do writing in some form. So, I ended up... I knew I couldn't just walk into a job and go, ‘Hey, I'm a writer now. Hope you might employ me,’ so I went back to uni. I was probably 22-ish, something around that mark. Went back to uni and did a creative writing course, a degree, here in England. I did that and then I come from a very small town in the Northeast of England where they barely can read, let alone write, so I had to move to the big city, to London, and get a job, and I applied for as many writing jobs as I could, anything that said Junior Writer, I applied for. And the only place where I managed to get an interview, let alone any response, was a company that at the time I had little to no idea who they were or what they did, but it was a company called Agora, which many of your listeners will be familiar with, especially in US. And they had an office in London. I applied for a junior writer job and got the job. Still, for probably at least three months sat in an office in London with direct-response sales letters all around me, not knowing what the hell was going on, whether... what any of this meant. Didn't know really what a copywriter was, but obviously, as you guys will know, having entered that world, I'd kind of, very luckily, struck the jackpot as far as learning to be a copywriter goes. So, it's purely chance that I discovered copywriting. I got this job at Agora and then from there obviously I was very lucky that I, at the time, when I joined the company, I have no idea of dates and stuff like that, I kind of lose track after this, but it was a time when Bill Bonner, the owner and Mark Ford or Michael Masterson, depending on how much of the back story you know, they were actually in England at the time and they were training the UK writers, so it was a fantastic opportunity to work directly with them and learn a lot from them. Worked at Agora for about a decade, directly, and then more recently went freelance. Still write letters for Agora but also wrote the book and that's where we are now. So that's how I became an author. And then, once I had that, it was kind of, ‘Right, well, I'll start speaking and do that kind of thing, and then do a podcast.’ And then I can't... I'm a bit of a workaholic so I just keep doing more and more things, but, I think that's how I got here and I want to do it in a shorter way. I tend to ramble, so you'll have to stop me. Rob: Rambling's always good. Before we get to the book and the speaking, the podcasting, those early days, as you were learning from some of your mentors, what were the kinds of things that Mark and others were teaching you? And I'm asking this because I think a lot of copywriters who listen to this podcast want ideas of how they can get better faster. Maybe they're starting out, they want to know the first resources that they ought to be looking at, so what did that look like as you were learning the skill of copywriting and more precisely direct-response copywriting? Glenn: Sure. So, I mean, it's funny because I spend all my time trying to share this information and educate people and what have you and teach people the skills that I've learned over the years, and I try to distill them in very easy and simple ways. And I think that, I always used to say, Mark was brilliant at this, and both Bill and Mark are like this in their nature. They have the kind of yin and yang, but they both have the same philosophy that they just keep things simple and they reduce everything to its absolutely simplest kind of unarguable form. So, never enter into an argument with them because you will eventually lose because they can reduce things to just very simple ideas and I think that probably, without getting too philosophical, is the whole thing behind the success of Agora because they take things down to its simplest ideas. It's all about ideas. So, I learned very early on that you live and survive and grow, succeed, what have you, by your ideas, and if an idea is no good, it doesn't matter how good a writer you are, how clever you are, and how much you manipulate the bad idea that you got, if it's a bad idea it's not going to work. So you need to spend the time on good ideas and searching for those ideas. It sounds obvious but very few businesses are able to do that, and I will say able to do that because, I think, everybody wants to have good ideas and spend the time to come up with the good ideas, but as businesses and in a busy world where everybody's fighting and competing, it's very hard to give the time that you actually need to give to come up with those ideas and spend the time you need to. So, that was a real kind of fundamental thing that I learned early on. Then, it's like, I mean there's so much stuff, but the technical things that always stick in my mind, Mark always said, ‘Stick to one idea,’ and it's one of the simplest pieces of advice, it's one of the hardest to follow. We naturally want to go off on tangents and do things that have more depth and all this kind of stuff, but sticking to one idea was a big thing. And then from Bill, the classic, ‘Speak to people, or write to people as you would be speaking to them in the bar.’ Those two pieces of information, if you can talk about a very simple idea in very simple language, there's nothing really harder than that. So, it's all about finding the idea and then just expressing it in a very simple and effective way. Obviously, I could go into the nitty-gritty, there's the four Us and four Ps and all this kind of stuff, but really, it's just about finding the idea and then expressing that in its simplest form. Kira: Can we dig deeper into that and talk about how to find the great ideas, and what your process looks like for finding great ideas, to the point where you're like, ‘Oh, yeah, this is it.’ Glenn: Sure. So, that's the number one hardest question in the world, but I've asked it a lot myself, the thing that still sticks in my mind now, actually, it's a good friend of mine, he still works with Agora in London in one of the offshoots there, and when I asked him about it, a guy called Nick, he said, ‘One of the best ways to find good ideas is to spot the bad ideas.’ So you're kind of whittling out the bad ideas. You can usually spot when something's not right. It's harder to go, ‘That's a winning idea. We'll go with that.’

Nov 26, 2019 • 53min

TCC Podcast #163: Accomplishing Bigger Goals with Sarah Henson

Email copywriter Sarah Henson is our guest for the 163rd episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. We first met Sarah a couple of years ago (at a copywriter conference) and have seen her make big changes in her business in the past year as a member of The Copywriter Think Tank. We asked Sarah about her successes, her struggles and how she's pushed herself to accomplish more—even as she's faced some big challenges in her life and business. We talked about: • Sarah's career path from actress to coach to email tech to copywriter • her experience as an actress and how it helps her as a writer • the “method actor” approach to understanding customers • owning the title of copywriter and how she made the switch • how she chose her niche (or how it chose her) • some of the hurdles Sarah’s overcome on her way to the next level • the big goals she’s set and what she wants to accomplish next • what keeps her going especially when she struggles to make things work • the mindset shift she’s experienced over the past 10 months • a breakdown of the work she did to hit $11K in a single month • comparison-itis and how Sarah has made sure it won’t hold her back • struggles with balance and how to fit it all in • the difference a community or mastermind can make in business • what she’s building in her business right now To get this one in your ear holes, click the play button below. To make sure you never miss an episode, subscribe on your favorite podcast app. And to read a full transcript, scroll down the page a bit. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Big Magic by Elizabeth Gilbert The Copywriter Think Tank Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Full Transcript: Rob: What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts and ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That's what Kira and I do every week at The Copywriter Club Podcast. Kira: You're invited to join the club for episode 163 as we chat with email strategist and e-commerce copywriter, Sarah Henson, about the struggle of freelancing and having her biggest revenue month ever, building an effective email strategy, what she's done to take her business to the next level, and how her past life as an actor has made her a better copywriter. Welcome, Sarah. Sarah: Hey. Rob: Hi, Sarah. Sarah: Hey there. Kira: Great to have you here. Sarah. Let's just kick this off with your story. How did you end up in e-commerce and as an email strategist and a copywriter? Sarah: Well, it's kind of a convoluted story, which I think pretty much everybody who's been on your podcast says it's been a bit of a weaving tale, but to me, yeah, you touched on it, that I was an actress for about 12 years. And when I say actress, it's not like I was super famous or anything like that. I was in the trenches, doing all of the auditions here, there and everywhere, getting gigs every now and again, but for 12 years, I was constantly going towards my goal and always getting little jobs here and there that just kept me going and kept me fueled all the time. But then, as I got into my 30s, things started to change, and my priorities changed. I met someone and we ended up getting married and having children and the life of an actor going for auditions all the time and being available for tours and gigs and things like that is not really conducive to life as a mother, so I decided that it was high time that I had to kind of switch gears. And I actually ended up starting my own actors’ agency, because I knew a lot of what goes on in the industry and how it works and everything. And I thought I could be really helpful to help other actors to get work. So, I started an agency. I ran that for about three years. And that was mildly successful. But I kind of, I think it was necessary for me to be able to kind of segue from acting, which was my passion, and I still have a little bit of a yearning deep down when I watch some stuff on TV and in the movies that was like, oh, that could have been me. But it was a way for me to let go of that big dream that I had of winning an Oscar one day and so I actually got to see a little bit more of the other side of the business, which wasn't quite as pretty. So, it allowed me to let go of that dream. And then after, I decided to close the business down because it just wasn't generating the revenue that I wanted. I kind of switched gears again, did a business degree. And then I found the online world, which for many people is kind of like a rabbit hole, where you go down and you find there's so many different things that you can do and the possibilities of what online business can actually bring you. And I ended up going into coaching. I'd never coached before. I'd never done any coach training, but I kind of bought into this idea that anybody could be a coach. And I thought that with all my acting training and the fact that I've been so resilient and always going for my dreams and never giving up was something that not a lot of my peers had about them. And I knew that that was something special that I had that I was able to kind of just keep going no matter what. And I thought that that was something that I could bring to the table as a coach, and I mean well, I say I worked as a coach for about a year. I had that business for about a year. But for some reason, I just couldn't get it going. I couldn't get consistent clients or anything. I had a few clients here and there but it really wasn't where my strengths lie. So again, it was a case of, okay, switching gears. What can I do, what can I double down on that I knew I'm good at. And during the time of actually setting up my coaching business, I'm quite a techie person. So I ended up going into virtual assistance work and helping people with their technical side of things. And that kind of led me to, ended up setting up a lot of people's email systems and then I don't even know how it happened. But some of my clients were just asking, ‘Can you just put together an email for me? I just want to say this, that and the other.’ And suddenly I started writing emails to people and because of my acting training, I could replicate their voice as well. So I was able to kind of match what they were saying in a lot of their social media posts and write emails that then guided the two, either social media posts or sales pages and things like that. And that's kind of how it all came about. And it was about 18 months ago that I was like, okay copywriting, this is the thing, this is the thing for me. And that's where it kind of like started from there really, about 18 months ago, that's when I declared and held up my flag that I am a copywriter. And then from that point on, it's kind of evolved. And now I'm into strategy as well. So that's how I got to where I am today. Rob: That is a winding path. A lot of turns here and there. Sarah: Yeah. Rob: I'm really curious, Sarah, about your training as an actor and how that has impacted what you do as a copywriter. Can you talk a little bit about the things that you learned and did as an actor and how that either effect client and how you're dealing with the client or the work that you do or the voices that you echo. Sarah: Yeah, sure. I mean, over time, as I've transitioned through all these things, the acting part of me has always been at my core, and I saw a lot of similarities into doing the research on ideal clients and prospects and things like that was very much like stepping into role as a character, the research that you have to do when you take on a new character because a lot of the times, if you got a script, you don't get the backstory of the character. So it's not a case of just making up. You have to kind of make executive decisions about what that character could possibly have done to get them to where they are today. And so it's very similar to actually putting on someone else's clothes and actually stepping into that role. And that actually comes into play when you're looking at, like for a client of mine, their prospects who I'm writing and my clients work for but also stepping into the role of my clients as well because then I have to also embody who they are to be able to replicate their voice and do that. So it's kind of like a two fold system of actually stepping into both roles and doing all the research behind that to actually get to, like in a character understanding what motivates a character to do something, their behaviors and why they do stuff. It's all very similar in copywriting. And that's how I kind of use that skill in my writing and in the strategy as well. And it is not something that I can say it's like a one, two, three step system. It's kind of like an innate thing that just kind of comes to me. And it's not something that... this is one of the things I was thinking. If I were to ever teach on this, how would I package that and I'm still working through how I can actually systemize that and say this is how it's done. So I'm still working on that point. Kira: Because when you actually do this, you're stepping into the characters, like you're feeling the characters right? I mean, you become the characters. Is that safe to say? Sarah: Well yeah, definitely. I mean a lot of the time, if you had like a little camera in my office, well it's actually my sun room of my house, watching me as I write, sometimes I actually just, I have to close my eyes and imagine myself in this situation and this is one of the things that the type of acting training that I did, it was in the Meisner technique, which not a lot of people have heard of, but I call it. It's kind of a method acting,

Nov 19, 2019 • 58min

TCC Podcast #162: Finding Your Brand of Joy with Tanya Geisler

Leadership coach, Tanya Geisler, is our guest for the 162nd episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. It's been more than 2 years since we spoke to Tanya last (all about the Imposter Complex) and we thought it was time to check back in and see what other issues she could help us deal with. And we're glad we did. We asked Tanya about: • what’s changed since we talked to her 2 years ago • the behaviors that hold us back from accomplishing our mission • the difference between anxiety, criticism and imposter complex—and why it matters • how our deeply held values sometimes hold us back (and real world examples of how that works) • the unshakeable confidence framework • how to take ownership of what is holding us back so we can make progress • overcoming the lies of the imposter complex (it’s not a linear process) • how to find our own brand(s) of joy • Tanya workshopped this a bit for Rob a bit while we talked • what happens when we have the wrong perception of our brand of joy • Tanya and Kira talked through her “word” and why Kira didn’t like it at first • what you can do to figure this stuff out for yourself • how to choose a coach who will help you become a better version of yourself • how copywriters can take on the role of a leader We also asked Tanya about how someone can work with her and her thoughts about the future of copywriting and online marketing. To hear what she said about all of the above, click the play button below or download this episode to your favorite podcast player. Rather read what she said? Then scroll down for a full transcript. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Our first interview with Tanya (47) TanyaGeisler.com Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Full Transcript: Kira: What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes, and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That's what Rob and I do every week at The Copywriter Club Podcast. Rob: You're invited to join the club for episode 162, as we chat for a second time with leadership coach Tanya Geisler, about what she's been doing since our last interview more than two years ago, the importance of embracing joy, building unshakable confidence, what to look for when you're hiring a coach and the thing that separates those who reach their full potential from those who don't. Kira: Welcome, Tanya. Rob: Hey Tanya. Tanya: Hey. I'm so happy to be here, and honored. Thank you both so much. Kira: Yeah, we're very excited to have you back for a second time. Your interview, number 47, is one of my favorite interviews on this entire show and I think just surprised both of us just with the impact it's had in the copywriter community after we talked about the impostor complex and dug into that. So we'll definitely link to that conversation, but we want to know really like what you've been up to since then over the last two years. So we can talk about a lot of what you're teaching and talking about today. Tanya: Oh, what I've been doing in the last two years? I can tell you what I've been doing today, but the last two years, Oh my goodness. I've been doing a lot of speaking. I've been doing a lot of deepening into this body of work that I've been called to really understand. I've created a framework from which I'm really understanding the impostor complex, and I launched my own podcast called Ready Enough, which is really looking at all of the places perfectionism and gets up in our grill and insists that we do things perfectly right. But really it's also about taking the conversation about the impostor complex and getting under when it might not be the impostor complex, because I've spent so much time, I think I might've even said this in our interview two years ago, that for me I'm like, I used to say that I'm like the Greek father in My Big Fat Greek Wedding and I can bring everything back to the imposter complex and over the speaking of the doing and the deepening of the doing with my work, I really, sometimes it's not the impostor complex. Sometimes it's a fear of fat phobia or transphobia or it's racism, it's systemic issues that are at play. So I'm really trying to be much more nuanced about it, and continuing to dig into what we do about the impostor complex when it shows up. That's what I've been up to. Rob: Well, let's dig into that just a little bit and we don't need to rehash the discussion we had on imposter complex because that was already a great interview and you walked us through all of the ways that that can show up in our lives and some of the tools that we need to have in our toolbox in order to deal with it. But can we go a little bit deeper on some of these other things related to perfectionism that are keeping us from showing up and doing the work that we should be doing? Tanya: Absolutely. So the only thing that I'll say just from imposter complex 101, is that it has three really specific objectives, I should say, it wants to keep you out of action, it wants to have you doubt your capacity and it wants to keep you alone and isolated. So the whole setup of the imposter complex is to do one of those three things or sometimes all of those three things. And so it functions, so when we want to avoid feeling like the impostor, we might go to one of six specific behavioral traits. That's perfectionism. That's procrastination, that's leaked boundaries, that's people pleasing. It's diminishment and it's comparison. And so this is, all have our own particular blends and cocktails of how we try to avoid feeling like the impostor, but it's typically going to be one of those behaviors. That's where we're going to be hiding out. And so, and again, each one of those is going to be, again, trying to keep you out of action, dead in your capacity or alone and isolated. So I think it's just really helpful to know which one is your particular blend that you go to, to avoid feeling like the impostor. And then when we know that, then we have more of a fighting chance of extracting ourselves from it or popping back out or having sort of sea anemone, sort of shrink back response that when it shows up, we can go, Oh, okay, I understand what's happening and then I can bounce back. Does that make sense? Rob: Totally makes sense. Yeah. And you're the first person to mention a sea anemone on the podcast. So 162 episodes to get there. Tanya: 162 episodes. All right. Kira: You're good like that. Tanya: This could be the last line. Like you guys are done. Rob: Yup, we've hit full vocabulary. Whatever it is. Kira: So Tanya, when you, you were mentioning your body of work and that you've just continued to dive deeper into it. So over the last, let's say again, over the last two years, what has surprised you as you continue to get deeper into your work and work with more clients and speak more and get more feedback from the outside and your community? What has surprised you and even, you said that you found that some of these issues are not the impostor complex. Can you talk more about that too? Maybe it's related. Tanya: Yeah. Well, let's just say this. If you study or if you follow anybody who does deep work in anxiety, you'll hear, when they talk about anxiety. Anxiety really tries to keep you out of action. Want's you to doubt your capacity, and wants you to feel alone and isolated. So that's looks and smells an awful like what I would have painted the impostor complex with, with a pretty wide brush stroke, in the past. Or if somebody is dealing with, they feel they are attacked by fat phobic people. Same thing, you're going to go to, you're going to keep out of action to at your capacity and feel alone and isolated. And so one of the things that I've been paying a lot of attention to is, are these behavioral traits, this procrastination, perfectionism, leaky boundaries, people pleasing diminishment and comparison. Because some of these, let me just say this, I'm going to step aside with for a minute and say that, these behavioral traits, it's really easy to go and say like, stop procrastinating and don't be a perfectionist, and like get over people pleasing. But the truth of the matter is, is just like our own inner critics. There is a nugget of truth or there's a nugget of gold I would say in the context of these behavioral traits. So if you are somebody who diminishes, then you might have a really strong value of humility. Your value of people pleasing, or if you're a people pleaser, maybe you're just really concerned about being super inclusive. If you've got boundaries that are pretty leaky, it might have everything to do with the fact that you are deeply generous and generosity is really important to you. So again, I just like, I want to bring in lots more discernment and nuance to the conversation because I do think that in a lot of self-development spaces, it's like perfectionism is the enemy. Well actually perfectionism is the very thing that has helped you to grow your capacity as an artist, as a copywriter, as a leader. And it's not a problem until it becomes a problem. And so it's that kind of, that edge that I'm really paying a lot of attention to. People pleasing isn't just about inclusivity, for folks who've been marginalized. It's actually an instrument of survival. So I just think that like we need to hold the perspective with a lot more care. So if you tend to be somebody who procrastinates, I don't want you to berate yourself. I want you to go, okay, this has served me to a degree. Now where is it problematic? Where do I need to spend a little bit of attention? Where do I need to pay a bit more attention?

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The Copywriter Club Podcast

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Mentioned books

TCC Podcast #171: Writing Sales Letters with Stefan Georgi

TCC Podcast #170: What’s New with Kira and Rob

TCC Podcast #169: Your 3 Word Rebellion with Michelle Mazur

TCC Podcast #168: How to Tell a Better Story with Glynn Washington

TCC Podcast #167: Finding Success When Things Go Wrong with Andrea Littell

TCC Podcast #166: Getting More from Your Copywriting Business with Ashlee Berghoff

TCC Podcast #165: The Most Interesting Man in the World with Drayton Bird

TCC Podcast #164: The (not so) secret to getting better at copy with Glenn Fisher

TCC Podcast #163: Accomplishing Bigger Goals with Sarah Henson

TCC Podcast #162: Finding Your Brand of Joy with Tanya Geisler

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