The Copywriter Club Podcast

Copywriter and persuasion scientist Jimmy Parent is our guest for the 180th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. We've been meaning to get Jimmy on the podcast for quite a while and were finally able to make it happen. Jimmy is a master storyteller and has spent a lot of time thinking about how to make messages more compelling. We asked him about: •  how Jimmy went from phone sales to copywriter, then what he did to grow his skills •  the importance of sales skills for copywriting •  Jimmy’s two favorite books and how they’ve influenced his career choices •  the training he took advantage of as he was just getting started •  the copy training he experienced at Agora—what worked for him, what didn’t •  how to be more persuasive in your own writing •  the PMP stack for developing big ideas and how to have more of them •  how to sell your idea once you have it •  the critical message that is missing from almost all sales messages—this hurts sales •  what Jimmy is doing today for his clients today—kicking ducks so to speak •  the worst dad joke ever told… seriously, the worst •  his current pricing model—draw against commissions •  his secret for attracting high-paying clients—Jimmy shares exactly where to find them •  the thing that sets the very best copywriters apart from the rest •  the biggest lesson he has learned from working with Oren Klaf… it’s a good one •  what Jimmy has struggled with over the past couple of years Like we said, this is an episode you won't want to miss. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript. Better still subscribe on iTunes so you never miss an episode.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Kevin Rogers The Go-Giver by Bob Burg Mastery by Robert Greene Joe Schriefer John Carlton Contagious Extreme Ownership 15 Minute Copywriter with Jimmy John Caples The Copywriter Accelerator Pitch Anything by Oren Klaf Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground   Full Transcript: Transcript is underway...

Copywriter and former cookie maker, Helen Tremethick, is our guest for the 179th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. Helen has an interesting approach to working with her clients, so we asked her all about it... and we asked her about these things too: •  the path she followed from R&D director at a cookie company to copywriter •  the common thread running through the jobs she had before she became a writer •  her “complimentary relationship” tactic for finding clients •  the “platypus model” for working with branding and copy clients •  how to create, sell and deliver a workshop for clients (and the economics of it all) •  the mistakes you’ll want to avoid if you want to hold workshops •  what her Clarity Sessions include—getting the underlying brand values right •  the questions she asks her clients in her consulting work •  how she prices her introductory offers in order to attract clients •  the tactics she uses to “do brand voice” better—this is an idea worth stealing •  what she includes in her roadmapping sessions •  where things go off the rails with style and brand voice guides •  the other unique things she’s doing in her business that other copywriters aren’t •  her experience as a blocker in roller derby •  Helen’s and Kira’s copywriting lessons from roller derby •  where she thinks copywriting is going in the future To hear everything Helen shared, click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript. Or, even better, subscribe on iTunes or Stitcher so you never miss an episode.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: The price survey Tanya Geisler Helen’s website Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground   Full Transcript: Kira:  This episode is brought to you by The Copywriter Accelerator, the 12 week program for copywriters who want to learn the business skills they need to succeed. Learn more at thecopywriteraccelerator.com. Rob:   What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That's what Kira and I do every week at The Copywriter Club Podcast. Kira:  You're invited to join the club for Episode 179 as we chat with copywriter and brand voice strategist, Helen Tremethick about how to position of business so you attract the right clients, creating more than one revenue stream in her business, how she creates balance and ignores the hustle and her experience in roller derby. Welcome, Helen. Helen:          Hi, thank you. Kira:  Kick this off and let us know how you ended up as a copywriter and brand voice strategist. What's your story? Helen:          Oh, yes, thanks. The short story is that I went to school for radio and television broadcasting. Then I went to school for International Development. Brand voice strategy is really about communicating who you are, and really understanding that deeper motivation. It's really hybrid of both of those educational channels that I took along the way in a very formal way. But the truth of the matter is, if you get a little bit deeper and uncover the story, there are a lot of hats that I wore along the way from being a research and development consultant for a cookie company, to being an executive director of a nonprofit, and even being a purple tea apprentice at a farm in central Ontario. All these experiences allowed me to really see business owners as they are, what works, what doesn't work, and really start formulating a way of communicating that connects to the people that we want to connect to, but still maintains this really genuine and authentic, not authentic TM, but this really authentic way of communicating who you are. Rob:   Did you just say you were an R&D specialist in a cookie company? Helen:          Yes, vegan cookie company in Toronto, also a baker. Rob:   Okay, let's hear more about that. Because I can imagine waking up as an R&D person thinking, okay, chocolate chips been done, pumpkins been done, snicker doodles been done. What am I going to do today? What do you do as an R&D person in a cookie company? Helen:          A lot of it was really testing out recipe ideas that came from the owner. I got to tell you, a lot of it was taste testing. Baking cookies, taste testing, seeing if they'll fly and then... Also not just seeing if they'll fly with the audience, whether they taste good, but if they hold their structure. I suppose we could apply a really good business metaphor here as well. It's not just what lands but what works well for you as well as the audience involved. Rob:   Okay, what was the weirdest recipe that you developed there? Helen:          Gosh, we did a lot of spicy chocolate stuff for a little while, which can go... Yes, absolutely. Spicy chocolate done well is very delicious. Spicy chocolate done not well, is it honestly... Kira:  How do you ever leave a job like that? It sounds like you dream job. You made it in life at a cookie company? Why would you ever leave? Helen:          I'm a terrible employee. I mean, that's really what it comes down to. Kira:  Got it. Makes sense. I want to hear more about your time at the farm too, you said as a tea apprentice. Tell us a little bit about your farm time and even just some business lessons that you learned from your apprenticeship at the farm. Helen:          Oh my goodness. It's so funny we're digging up all old history here. I was a medicinal tea apprentice at this farm that does herbal teas, and does a lot of wild crafting and stuff. As an aside, I also live on a farm currently so I have spent a lot of my life in urban settings, but really currently have come back to my love for plants and plant medicine and really sharing that with people. I do that on the side. This foray as a medicinal tea apprentice was part of that learning about botany and the plants around us. Not just the plants that we see in our grocery stores, but what we would call weeds and really how they help us. I think in terms of business metaphors, that's really one real crucial lesson about running a business is that you don't always have to be the apple, be the orange, be the banana, be the thing that you find in grocery stores. You can actually also just be the dandy lion. Be the chickweed, be the plants that is not for everybody but is perfect for the right person at the right time with those right needs. Rob:   I think I'm probably the chickweed of copywriters as I think about that. Helen:          Delicious and nutritious. Rob:   Absolutely, but often overlooked. Is there something, maybe a theme that runs through all of these other jobs that you did as you're making your way in life that then led you to be a copywriter? I know you mentioned the research understanding customers but anything beyond that? Helen:          Oh, absolutely. Every single job that I found myself in, no matter what it was, I was rewriting the operations manual, writing of the press releases, rewriting the marketing materials, really getting my hands in how that business was communicating themselves to their people. I would wear these hats that said, medicinal tea apprentice or you don't... There was a time that I did fine furniture building. But all of those experiences, I found myself really just tinkering around with their messaging, and getting back to my roots, radio and television and in international development. Wanting to build that business up based on who they are and showcasing them in a way that's true and impactful. Kira:  What is your first few months or first six months in your copywriting business? As you started to focus on messaging and building out your copywriting business, what did it look like? How did you get clients? How did you build that momentum early on? Helen:          Thank you. I first... A little known fact is that the communications distillery started as sunrise editing. Kira:  Oh, cool. Helen:          That's how I got my first clients, is people... I was doing a lot of writing, earning some traction on my blog, and a lot of people started asking me to start editing their blog posts. My first clients were editing clients, where I was helping them indirectly with their message, but primarily with their punctuation. Fairly early on, it became very clear that I don't care nearly as much about punctuation as I do about people's message and whether they're making the impacts that they want to make. I made a pretty natural pivot from editing into writing blog posts for people, then from there into writing website copy. It was a pretty easy pivot each time. Just opening myself up to more and more opportunities that way. It naturally progressed into writing website copy. Then I realized that in writing website copy that there was really a way that people were communicating online. A way that was a bit more genuine and a bit more authentic, versus this very templated style that the gurus were telling us that this is what had to happen. There was something else, this undercurrent that was happening and that's what I started paying attention to. That's what really led me into brand voice strategy, which I feel is really key to everything that we communicate to our people. Rob:   We definitely want to talk more about brand voice but tell us first, how did you find your first clients as a copywriter? What kinds of things were you doing? Helen:          Well, again, I was writing blog posts. People were coming to me because they wanted somebody to write their blog posts for them. That happened primarily through word of mouth. In fact, the vast majority of my business over the near decade that I've been in, comes through primarily word of mouth. I tend to make relationship partners where we refer people back and forth.

Productivity Expert and Coach, Charlie Gilkey, is our guest for the 178th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. We've admitted our struggles with getting things done on the podcast before—and neither one of us is a fan of traditional time management tactics like setting SMART goals...  so it made sense to have Charlie on to talk through how we can start finishing and get more done. We asked Charlie about: •  how he accidentally became a speaker, author and coach •  exactly what he does as a coach and how he helps his clients •  why coaches ask so many questions (and don’t always share the answers) •  an example of how Charlie works with his clients to help them find the real issues •  why so many people shy away from the work that could help them level up •  why accountability helps anyone who wants achieve more •  why time management isn’t the answer (but you still need it) •  focus blocks and how to use them to get more done •  how to stop what you’re doing that’s keeping you from getting what you want •  how to figure out if you’re a lark, an owl, or an emu •  his advice for figuring out what you really want •  the hardest question Charlie asks people (and why) •  why he doesn’t believe anyone is inherently a procrastinator •  the tools we can use to create a better vision for our lives •  the difference between those who make it and those who give up •  what his book is about and what you’ll get out of it •  what he does to grow his skills and be a better coach for his clients If you struggle with getting things done, or finishing the thing you start... or you just want to quit and watch Netflix for a few weeks, you don't want to miss this episode. To hear it, click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript. Better still, subscribe on iTunes so you never miss an episode.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: The Coaching Habit The Advice Trap Joanna Wiebe Val Geisler The Spice Girls Double Double Start Finishing (Charlie’s book) Deep Work by Cal Newport Finish by John Acuff Charlie’s website Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground   Full Transcript: Rob:   This episode is brought to you by The Copywriter Club In Real Life, our live event in San Diego March 12th through 14th. Get your tickets now at thecopywriterclub.com/tccirl. Kira:  What if you could hang with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes, and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That's what Rob and I do every week at The Copywriter Club Podcast. Rob:   You're invited to join the club for episode 178 as we chat with author and business coach Charlie Gilkey about how to take an idea from start to finish, what it takes to level up your business, how to effectively use time to get more done, and what it takes to do your best work. Kira:  Charlie, welcome! Rob:   Hey, Charlie. Charlie:        Thanks so much for having me, guys. I'm pumped to be here. Kira:  Yeah. We're pumped! I have been looking forward to this for a while. So let's just start, Charlie, with your story. For anyone who doesn't know you as well, how did you end up as an executive coach, speaker, an author, and a philosopher? Charlie:        Well, when it comes to the executive coach, speaker, and author bit, all of that was super accidental. I fell into this backassward, in the sense where I had come back. So let's roll back to 2006, 2007. I had recently come back from being a deployed soldier for Operation Iraqi Freedom, and I still had my career as an Army officer. I was a logistics officer. And I was also pursuing my PhD in philosophy. So I'm a social philosopher and an ethicist. And it seems so sophomoric now, looking back as a 40-year-old, looking back at my 26-year-old self. But my 26-year-old self was like, ‘I've got to get my stuff together. I'm just not making it happen. I'm just not getting stuff done.’ What I would say now is, ‘You've got two careers, dummy. Chill!’ Right? But at the time, I was just like, ‘Ah! I'm not making it happen.’ So I did what any good scholar and any good officer would do. I was just like, ‘Look. I'm not the only person that has had this problem. Someone else has figured this out.’ So I started doing the research, and I found that I was having to do a lot of synthesis and translation of what I was reading from the productivity literature, which tended to be really granular, and really focused on tasks. And it just really focused on lower-level stuff in the personal development literature, which tended to be pretty lofty. But my problem was this messy world in the middle of projects. I had all these projects that just wasn't getting done. And so I did what any good scholar and philosopher would do, is I started teaching other people about this sort of stuff. And it seems really funny that here I was already overwhelmed, but then I decided to start a business right on top of everything else I was doing, teaching people how to do this. And it's just kind of grown organically since then. Were it not for Naomi Dunford, who is a brilliant marketer and copywriter, basically putting me on the spot and almost damn near making me put my coaching page up, I wouldn't have been a coach. Because again, that wasn't in my career trajectory. I didn't grow up around entrepreneurs and business people. People like me didn't seem to start businesses like this. And so it's been just this huge blessing, and great fun ride. And it's still growing. It's still changing as we're talking. Rob:   So I'm really curious. Can you tell us a little bit more what you do as a coach? And we know a few people who have worked with you one-on-one. So I'm curious: What does that engagement look like? And what are the typical things that at least somebody starts out wanting to work on when they hire you? Charlie:        You know, this is going to be one of those harder questions to answer, but I'll try to be succinct on it. Really, what I do is I help people work on the root cause strategic issues in their business. I'm a strategy execution specialist. And so typically, they'll come to me and they'll be like, ‘Hey, Charlie. I'm stuck!’ Or, ‘My business isn't making money.’ Or, ‘I can't figure out why this offer isn't working.’ Or sometimes it's, ‘Hey. My team, we're just not getting it done.’ And so we really go in and figure out what's going on. And what an engagement typically looks like, and what makes me sometimes a terrible coach, is that there are plenty of times where I don't think my clients have the answers. Right? Especially from the coaching industry... And we're not going to get too much into insider baseball... But there's a part of the shtick that the client owns the answers. But when you start talking about it in a business context and in an executive concept, sometimes you just don't know what you don't know. And you can't see what you can't see. And so we focus on the three to five things that are going to make the biggest difference in the business. And then every other week, we come together and just work until we fix it. And along the way, if you're in business for any amount of time, what you figure out is you solve one problem and create three others. And so it's job security for me in a sense, where we're creating new challenges as we go. But it's not the same damn challenge over and over and over again. So we might go from a solo printer business that's stuck at the owner executive's capacity, and then break through that by either changing markets or adding team capacity to it. But then they've got managerial challenges, and then you have to forecast cash flow a little bit differently. So the reason it's super tricky for me to say what it is I do is if I were a marketing strategist, I would say, ‘Yo, I help them build their funnel,’ and blah, blah, blah. I'd have three or four things that I work on. But I'm that really well-versed generalist that can walk into a situation, figure out what's going on, and start righting the ship as we go. Kira:  All right. I want to talk about the insider baseball piece of it, because a lot of copywriters in our community are developing their own programs and communities, and are getting into coaching. Rob and I do some of that in our groups. And it has been a struggle, too, for me, because of what you said. I feel like what I have been told to do is to ask provocative questions that help the person you're mentoring figure out the answer. And half the time I just want to tell them the answer. And so I feel like I have this inner conflict all of the time that it seems like you've worked through. So I think my question is more generic, around how can we become better coaches if that is a part of our business model? How can we think about it in a way that helps us better serve the people who are hiring us, working with us? Charlie:        That was a great question, Kira. And I don't want to disparage the value of being able to ask really good questions. And the reason why coaching as a profession, and as that modality, focuses on questions is because it centers the client's experiences. It centers the client's expertise and their strengths, and shows them that they have a way to go forward. And it doesn't make the coach the expert; it makes the client the expert. And there's a lot of value in that. And, Kira, you've probably been on those conversations to where you've asked all the provocative questions for 30, 45 minutes. And then it can just get super exasperating. The client knows that you have a certain something going on, and they just don't know how to answer the questions. Kira:  You start drawing pictures and playing Pictionary. Charlie:        You start drawing pictures, and playing Pictionaries and Charades...

Social Media strategist, Andrea Jones is our guest for the 177th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. We were interested in this topic because we are so bad at using social media in our own businesses and for The Copywriter Club. If you've struggled to find a way to maximize social media to help you find clients you'll want to listen to this. We asked Andrea about: •  how she became a social media strategist—she started doing posts for $5 •  what she did to meet her husband (he was annoying her on Youtube) •  what’s going on in social media today and the rise of video •  how to understand your audience so you serve them •  where you should start if you’re overwhelmed by social media •  the importance—or non-importance—of design and “the grid” •  the bare minimum you should be sharing on social media •  how to build your audience and get the attention of your best prospects •  how to turn social media into a lead generation tool for your biz •  the mistakes people make on social media that you don’t want to make •  the “right” approach to your brand voice on social media •  when you should be working with a team and when you shouldn’t •  what it costs to hire a social media consultant •  the #1 thing she’s done to take her business to the next level •  the future of social media… and how you can get ahead of it This episode is available wherever great podcasts are found (like iTunes and Stitcher). Or you can simply click the play button below. There's also a transcript for anyone who scrolls down.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: The Life Coach School Andrea’s website Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground   Full Transcript: Kira:  This episode is brought to you by The Copywriter Club In Real Life, our live event in San Diego, March 12th through the 14th. Get your tickets now at thecopywriterclub.com/tccirl. Rob:   What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That's what Kira and I do every week at The Copywriter Club Podcast. Kira:  You're invited to join the club for episode 177 as we chat with social media strategist, Andrea Jones about creating impact and social media channels like Instagram and LinkedIn, creating sales funnels that start in social media, why copywriters need to spend more time in this important channel and the things she's done to up level her business. Welcome, Andrea. Rob:   Hey Andrea. Andrea:        Thank you so much for having me. I'm super excited to chat with you guys today. Kira:  I know we're excited to talk about social media because we've done well in certain areas in media, but there are other areas where we are lacking in The Copywriter Club. Rob:   It's so bad. Kira:  Super bad, because we've talked about it before, Andrea. So why don't we start this off with your story and talk about how you ended up as a social media strategist. Andrea:        Yes. I love this question because, I met my husband on YouTube. Rob:   Social media is a game changer is what you're saying. Andrea:        It literally has changed my life. But I am an early adapter to social media. I actually happen to like it and I started a blog back in 2004. I was making YouTube videos in 2007 way before it was cool and my friends thought I was insane. And so social media for me is just a really fun way for an introvert like myself to show up in a way that's still doesn't drain my energy. I started out on social media as fun, but it wasn't until I actually moved to live with my YouTube husband in 2014 when I started the business. So with that move, I needed something to do. I moved to a completely different country from Atlanta, Georgia to Toronto, Canada. And so that big move helped me launch my business. And I was amazed when I started digging into the freelancing world how many people didn't understand social media since I had a natural love for it and how my clients were just grateful and thankful that they didn't have to think about it anymore. So my start in this world came from a very organic space. Rob:   And tell us more about that. What were the things that you started doing as you were starting this business in social media? Andrea:        Yeah, I started off doing all of the things. I was actually doing a lot of things on Fiverr. You guys know Fiverr. So it was writing Facebook post for $5. Um, and that actually got my start into it. And once I was doing those kind of little piecemeal things, I noticed that there was a big space for people who needed this consistently. So it's one of those things where it's 24/7 clients need it all of the time. And so I really leaned into that and that's where I got my start building out a monthly retainer package and really helping clients that way. So I started off doing kind of random little things but ended up kind of settling in to something that was more of a long term plan. Kira:  So I want to know how you met your husband on YouTube. Let's talk about that first. How did you meet your husband on YouTube? Just tell us the love story there. Andrea:        So I was making these like Vlog style videos about my life and he was doing these comedy, like angry ranting videos. And at the time we were both looking to grow our little YouTube communities. And so we were collaborating with different people much like we're doing today on this podcast episode. And so we did a YouTube video together virtually, and then we just kept talking and I thought he was actually kind of annoying at first. I was like, ‘Why does he keep talking to me?’ But yeah, the rest that they say is history. I went to visit him in Toronto first and then he came to Atlanta to visit me. And we moved fairly quickly from the time that we met to the time that I moved in was about like eight months. Kira:  Wow. That's fast. Rob:   But it works. So let's define social media just a little bit because I have a feeling that it's a little bit broader than what we often think about Facebook, Instagram, maybe Twitter, YouTube. How broad does it go and what does it include? Would you include like email and webinars and all this kind of stuff, or where do you draw the lines? Andrea:        Yeah, so for me, social media is really a public communities online. So you're absolutely right with things like Facebook and Instagram and Twitter. Things that are on the line or like YouTube and Pinterest, they're almost a little bit of a search engine more than a social media network, but they're still kind of included in that bundle. Even platforms like TikTok or Snapchat are still considered social media because you're connecting with people. But in a more public fashion, I think once we start getting into email and webinars, it's kind of like further down the funnel and it's still considered digital marketing. But I wouldn't necessarily consider it social media. Kira:  All right. So I'd love to hear more of a state of the union on social media today, just as far as like your perspective on how it's evolved even just over the last year or two because it's changed dramatically and just like where it is today, what's working today for your clients, what we should know about where social media is today, especially if we haven't used it in our business and we're like on there occasionally, socially in our own personal lives. Andrea:        So I think with this kind of digital world that we live in, social media is a great opportunity to reach a lot of people but still make it feel custom. So you're still making it feel like you understand the people in your community intimately and you're able to connect with them in that way. So one of the biggest shifts I've seen in social media today is that it's not like a billboard where you're trying to reach as many people as possible. It's not like a television commercial where it's so neutral. You're trying not to offend anybody, but where social media, you can get really specific in your vertical and specifically talk to individual people. And so I think that's one of the biggest shifts that's happened recently in the past year or so. And a lot of people are using things like video and Instagram stories to kind of dictate that shift and really help people feel really connected to them and their message. Rob:   How do you do that? If the key change to social media is really understanding your audience, what are the things that you can do to understand all of these people who say follow you? So for example, we have an Instagram for The Copywriter Club, we're terrible at posting there, but I know that there are several hundred or a couple of thousand people who have opted in to follow us, but we don't always know who they are or what they're thinking other than they've expressed an interest in following our page. So how do we get to know them? What are their tools or is it just a long game of back and forth conversations? What can we do to increase that engagement? Andrea:        Yeah, absolutely. I like to use the analogy of dating here where like when you first meet someone, sometimes it's that little awkward dance like, ‘Is this going to work?’ So I think social media can feel like that sometimes. But the reason that things like dating works, like how do you find your person, is there's almost like an energetic match with that person. Like even if you don't fully understand whether they prefer chocolate or vanilla ice cream, you kind of relate to them on an energetic level. So I think if you're looking at your own Instagram account and you're obviously attracting copywriters start to post things that really connect and resonate with the copywriting world,

We don't often have two guests join us in the studio, but this week is one of those exceptions. For this special "un-numbered' episode, we've invited Rob Braddock and Conor Lynch to share how they become copywriters, what they're doing differently in the financial niche, and how you can earn the opportunity for a paid gig ($7,500 plus royalties) to write a promo for WealthPress. You'll want to listen to get the details. We also talked about: •  how Rob Braddock accomplished his meteoric rise from prisoner to successful copywriter •  the resources he used to learn direct response copywriter •  Rob’s daily meditation practice •  how easy it is to get your foot in the door wherever you want to work •  how Conor Lynch got his first taste of copywriting at age 13 •  the boring narrative arc in the biz-op niche that drove him to finance •  how WealthPress became the fastest growing Financial publisher •  the writing and approval process that helped Conor get promotions done faster •  the importance of spectacle when it comes to getting attention •  the process of building a hot list (and how WealthPress does it differently) •  whether spectacle and video promotions will work in niches beside finance •  why WealthPress is sponsoring the cocktail party at TCCIRL •  how you can “win” an opportunity for a paid promotion with WealthPress Don't skip this one, especially if you've ever dreamed of writing in the financial niche. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript. Or better yet, subscribe on iTunes or Stitcher so you never miss an episode.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: WealthPress The Gary Halbert Letters Jake Hoffberg Joe Schriefer Evaldo Albuequeque Dan Kennedy Yanik Silver Russell Brunson Raging Bull Angel Publishing Trade Winds Bencivenga’s Marketing Bullets Joel Klettke Macallan M Contest Entries Go Here Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground   Full Transcript: Rob M:         This is a different kind of interview than we usually do. We usually only talk to one person at a time. Today we have both Rob Braddock and Conor Lynch as our guests today. For a couple different reasons we're doing this a little bit differently. One, because we've got a contest that we're going to talk about here in just a minute. Two, you guys worked together to create some pretty interesting financial promotions, and you do it in a different way. Before we get into all of that, maybe Rob Braddock, we can start with your story. Then maybe we can hear a little bit from Conor about his story and how he got into this business. Rob B:         Right. Well, yeah. I guess it is a pretty crazy thing to think. You could probably go back not too far just two years or so ago and find the first post I made in The Copywriter Club. I didn't know anything about copywriting two years ago really, but I'd just discovered it. So, before I got into copywriting, I was in political fundraising. Got in a little bit of trouble. Bribery this, bribery that, yada, yada, yada, blah, blah, blah. Three years in federal prison. That essentially ended that career and all of the contacts I had built up over time. It's not something I could get back into. So, I had to start over again. After I stumbled around and bumbled around trying to figure out what I was going to do, I knew it was going to be something in the internet space or maybe I would SEO, sales or something. I wasn't really sure. I stumbled across copywriting, direct response copywriting and then financial direct response copywriting. Once I saw what it was, what it is and how much money can be made with it, I was like, ‘All right, I'm doing this, man. I'm going all in.’ So, I started studying and studying and studying relentlessly. It was essentially my primary focus of my life for six months at least. Then one thing led to another, and I was lucky enough to get a shot to work for Agora and went to Agora. Had a couple of hits at Agora. Then decided to leave to join up with WealthPress and see if we could make some big moves. So, that's where I am. That's the quick story. Kira:  That is a quick story, but we want to dig into that a little bit more. From your time in prison, is there a question that people ask you repeatedly about that time in your life that just you're tired of it because everyone asks you the same question? Rob B:         No. Everyone just says, ‘What was it like?’ Not really a lot of specifics. The hardest part of prison is the separation and being totally disconnected from the rest of the world, and the world's moving by and you don't know what's happening. You're sort of stuck in this one place. It's literal and metaphorical at the same time. You're stuck in one spot while everything else is moving by. A lot of guys decide to stay stuck in that place, again, physically or metaphorically even when they get out. The hardest part for me was when I had to do some time in the SHU, the special housing unit, commonly referred to as the hole or whatever. I was in there for four months one time. Kira:  Oh, wow. Rob B:         I did three weeks in the hole once and then four months in the hole another time. It's very mentally difficult. It was in that time that I ... I mean, you're on lockdown for 23 hours a day in the room and 24 hours on the weekends. When you're let out for an hour it's at six o'clock in the morning in February when it's freezing cold and you're in a dog cage essentially. It's not like you're actually going outside. So, you're essentially completely locked down for 24 hours a day for four months. It's very mentally taxing. It was in that space that I sort of ... I started meditating a lot and repeating positive mantras to myself in my head for hours at a time. So, I was trying to prevent myself from going crazy, I guess. That's the same thing I used when I got out of prison. I kept doing that, like a ritual of meditation and positive thought reinforcement so that I'd be able to achieve what I wanted to achieve. You have to think like ... I set a goal of working at Agora. That's considered the, holy shit, if you can get a job as a copywriter working at Agora, oh my god. I didn't even know what it was. I didn't even know what copywriting was. So, I decided I'm going to go from not knowing what copywriting is to having Agora make me an offer. So, I went super hardcore with studying and meditating and positive mental affirmations, and it happened within six months. In six months I went from literally not have ever even seen a long form financial copy to working at Agora, and two months after that had my first hit with Agora. So, as terrible as prison was, being in that situation forced me to develop the things that I used to better my life once I got out, if that makes any sense. Rob M:         Yeah, it makes total sense. It's an amazing transformation. I'm guessing that a lot of people who are listening are probably going to thinking to themselves, ‘Okay, in order to make a jump from zero to one of the best, being among the best writing of financial promos,’ you talked about how you were relentless in your study. What were you studying? What were you doing through those six months that helped you make that kind of a leap? Rob B:         Hey, all the stuff is out there. Everything is out there. You don't have to invent some new copy thing or some new sales tactic that's never been thought of before. People have been doing it for a couple hundred years now. What I say is like, the first guy ever to think, ‘Hey, I'm going to put an ad in the newspaper with a call-to-action and try to sell this thing that I'm selling,’ he put it in a newspaper 200 years ago. That guy was a genius. He had to think to do that. Fast forward 200 years, what did I do? I read The Gary Halbert Letters online for free, which you can do. Bond Halbert and his brother, they have it up there for free. They could be selling that thing for thousands of dollars, but- Rob M:         That's an amazing resource. Rob B:         Right. I think I've read every letter that's on The Gary Halbert Letters website. I did that. I signed up for every financial newsletter to read every promotion, and I would read every ad. I would think to myself, ‘Oh wow, that's really interesting. What are they doing here?’ Then I'd think, ‘You know what? I could do that better. That ad kind of sucks. I would do it like this.’ I did that for hours, literal hours every day. Then at one point, I took a class. Jake Hoffberg was offering a class on how to write short form financial copy, which is emails. We call them lift letters, which are editorial emails. They're like the salesy emails. So, those emails and the little short ads you might see, I took that course on how to do that. That was essentially it. So, just several hours a day of reading either general direct response information, and then specifically to my niche, just sort of consuming every bit of content I could. Kira:  This is getting into the weeds a little bit, but you mentioned meditation and affirmations. Can you just share, what did that actually look like at the time when you were building that into your practice when you were prison? I mean, beyond when you left. Maybe you're still doing it today. Is that something that you do in the morning? Could you give an example of what that looks like? Rob B:         Yeah, I do it for 20 minutes each morning. It's the first thing I do. I wake up. I have positive affirmations that I've had recorded. So, I put on my headphones and usually I just lay there in bed for 20 minutes. I press play and just listen to it. I have some cool music in the background. Yeah, I don't know. That's it. It's 20 minutes a day. It's like forward looking goal setting statements but also some statements that would never change, things like just being ...

Special Midweek Bonus Episode. TCCIRL is just around the corner, so we invited Event Strategist, Elaine Wellman, to join us for the 176th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. When we first published the podcast, we regularly posted two episodes a week. Now that's a rarity... thanks to the behind the scenes info that Elaine shares about TCCIRL, we didn't want to wait to publish this on.  We talked to Elaine about: •  the path she followed from public relations to coaching to event management •  how she landed her first solo event project and launched her business •  the mindset shifts needed to recognize when business isn’t working •  when you need to “go with the flow” at events and when you shouldn’t •  the different ways you can approach events (it doesn’t have to be big) •  doing the things in your business that others won’t do because they’re hard •  the truth about The Copywriter Club In Real Life •  the extra things that are truly unique about TCCIRL •  the stuff Elaine thinks we should be doing differently •  the difference between a great event and one that underwhelms •  how to get the right people to attend an event •  how to handle the stress of hosting or attending an event •  when you need to consider getting an event coordinator to help •  how to know whether the event coordinator you’re considering is the right one •  the food that VIP ticket holders will get to “experience” This one is a fun behind-the-scenes discussion of the planning of TCCIRL and the importance of events—you won't want to miss it. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript. Or subscribe on iTunes or Stitcher so you never miss an episode.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: TCCIRL Copywriting Event Prerna Malik Publicis Why Events are Rocket Fuel for Your Business The Event Planning PDF The Event Retreat Leaders Lounge Elaine’s website Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground   Full Transcript: Rob:   This episode is brought to you by The Copywriter Club In Real Life, our live event in San Diego, March 12th through 14th. Get your tickets now at thecopywriterclub.com/tccirl. Kira:  What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes and their habit, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That's what Rob and I do every week at The Copywriter Club Podcast. Rob:   You're invited to join the club for episode 176 as we chat with our Event Planner for TCCIRL, Elaine Wellman, about planning events of all sizes, why it can be a good idea to work with an event planner, why some events are life changing while others are kind of blah, and how events can deepen client connections. Kira:  Welcome Elaine. Rob:   Hey Elaine. Elaine:         Hey you guys, been so long since we talked yesterday or maybe... Rob:   All we do is talk to you lately. We are in the throes of planning a pretty big event with you. Kira:  Yes, we are a month away, as Elaine likes to remind us. It stresses me out a little bit to think about it, but Elaine, we met you three years ago before our first event in New York City. Prerna Malik had introduced us and I think we were, I remember we were halfway through the planning process when we were just like, ‘Oh, we need help.’ And luckily, we met you and you were able to swoop in and help us produce the event, the first event and make it a success. So, you've been integral to the process and you've also seen how the event has evolved. We're going to get into all of that. But let's just first start with your story. How did you get into this business? How did you end up as an event strategist and planner? Elaine:         It wasn't really by design. I guess I'll try to give you the short version here because we have a lot to talk about. But I majored in college in communications and went into public relations. And some of your copywriters might be able to relate to the PR industry. I don't know, but it is a huge burnout job for sure. I ended up at an agency, a really small company that morphed from PR to doing a lot of events. And in public relations, the area that I was in, I did events for my clients, but my major focus was on getting publicity for them. And I always liked events because they're really tangible when you're working on them. It's something that you create and you see it and you bring it to life and then it ends unlike getting publicity, which is this unending, everlasting project. So, I always liked events. And then the company I worked for just morphed into focusing on events, getting a lot of event clients, it was pretty unique. The owner is French and we got all these French companies that were doing events in New York and ended up doing a lot of trade shows, really small boutique trade shows, a little bit upscale, which was great training grounds because in a trade show, there're so many audiences. There's the attendees, the visitors, my own client, the trade show owner, the speakers, the exhibitor. I mean, there's just a lot of different audiences. So that was really great training ground and one of the big clients did... their big show was in Monaco. So, for like 10 years, I went to Monaco every year on a business trip. So that was really great. And along the way, I actually got certified as a coach and floundered around in what area I was going to specialize in with my coaching business and eventually put it all together and came back to what I can do with my eyes closed, which is events. And then switched up my coaching business to focus on events and retreats and eventually brought the coaching back in to help people DIY their event if they're not really ready yet to invest in higher level done for you support like you guys do. So, then I work with people in that way through my group program. Rob:   The French company you worked at, that was Publicist, right? Elaine:         Actually, no. I did work at Publicist- Rob:   Because I was going to say, we found this connection that you and I had both worked at Publicist. Elaine:         We did and that was the major burnout. Oh my God. Rob:   Right. For me too. Elaine:         Publicist bought a PR agency that I was working for that I was VP of the consumer group and there was the big grip in the key to why they bought it. I made the most money that year in corporate that they bought the company and it was like the worst year of my work life at the same time. Rob:   Interesting. I wouldn't describe my experience as awful when I was at Publicist, but it was a lot of work. I mean, it was definitely the kind of thing that you can burn out from. So jumping forward then, that first client that you did on your own, tell us about how that project came about as you are branching out onto your own, you're not planning events with the company anymore, but doing your own thing. Elaine:         Oh, that's interesting. I was working still part-time for that small event company and working on my coaching business, which, that went through a lot of changes. At first, I was working on happiness because I had gotten over my own depression and then I switched that wording, hello copywriters, to mindset because that seemed to resonate more. And then I eventually was like, ‘Oh, I have all this marketing background, let me do mindset and marketing.’ But I was really never able to get that coaching business going. I think a lot of it was my own mindset crap. So one day in the mastermind group I was in, I basically surrendered my business and I was like, oh my God, it's like you're in the Facebook group getting ready for your mindset call. What's working, what's not? And I'm writing, my business is not working. Oh my God, am I going to say this out loud? And I did. And a couple of weeks later, my coach said, ‘I got a download in yoga, I'm going to call you.’ And she said, ‘I know you probably don't really want to do events, but I'm getting proposals for an event this summer. Do you want to get me a proposal?’ And I did. And then the next thing she did was a retreat in Costa Rica. I'm like, ‘Well, yeah, that's really fun.’ And so I just sat back for a little while and I ended up getting on her team and doing various things on her team, including several events and retreats and some other projects still working part-time. And after about a year of doing that, I was like, ‘Okay, yeah, this is where I want to put my stake in the ground. I'm loving the event and retreat work.’ Kira:  And how can we deal with the mindset piece of it because we're talking about mindset here when you are pivoting and it is hard to realize my business isn't working, something's not right. Or maybe I'm just not into it. How do you recommend copywriters handle that when that happens so that it doesn't feel like a failure, but it just feels like a next step and you handle it with more grace rather than just pushing back from it? Elaine:         Well, I love what you said, Kira, because it's so easy for us to beat ourselves up and we're such a success driven society and what that means and all that. But everything does lead us to where we got. I mean, if I hadn't had been burnt out at Publicist, I wouldn't have gotten into events in the first place. You know what I mean? So, even though that was a horrible year of my life, if that didn't happen, I would be in a totally different place. I mean, it's definitely real and it's definitely challenging, but I think being gentle with yourself is really important and giving yourself some space, which is what I did. Like I said, I mean, I did have a part-time job still so I had some money coming in, but once I surrendered that business, I was like, ‘I don't have to figure this out today or this month,

For the 175th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, Kira and Rob talked with copywriter Derek Hambrick about his path to freelance copywriter... including his first failed attempt and what made him successful the second time he gave it a go. We also talked about: •  the path he followed from communications to copywriting •  the surprising emotions Derek felt when he was laid off… panic and excitement •  how he relies on relationships to find clients for his business •  what he did to step up his copywriting game as he went out on his own •  the importance of giving and altruism to Derek’s ROI •  the process he follows as he works with his clients •  why he chose his niche and the impact its had on his business growth •  the pros and cons of working in the higher education niche •  how he moves from one client to the next and gets referrals •  the changes he’s made to his mindset in order to think bigger •  his experience in The Copywriter Underground and what he gets from it •  how to get the most from a course or community you belong to •  the mistakes he’s made as he moved from full time to freelance •  what comes next… how Derek keeps growing To hear what else we talked about, click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript. Or better yet, subscribe with your favorite podcast app and never miss an episode.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Ry Schwartz Joel Klettke The Copywriter Underground Cantilever Creative TCCIRL Copywriting Event Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground   Full Transcript: Kira:   This episode is brought to you by The Copywriter Club In Real Life, our live event in San Diego, March 12th through the 14th. Get your tickets now at thecopywriterclub.com/tccirl. Rob:   What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes and their habits then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That's what Kira and I do every week at The Copywriter Club Podcast. Kira:   You're invited to join the club for episode 175 as we chat with copywriter Derek Hambrick about moving from full time work to freelance, choosing his niche and what that did for his business, what he did to find his first clients and how he finds people to work with today, his experience in The Copywriter Underground and what he's doing differently in 2020. Welcome, Derek. Derek:            Hey guys, thanks for having me over. Kira:   Yeah, I feel like we have wanted to have this conversation with you for a while. We've been able to hang out with... Well, I was able to hang out with you in person not too long ago and chat with you then, but we really wanted to record this and find out more about you and your business and what you've done because it's worked well. So, why don't we kick it off with your story? How did you end up as a copywriter? Derek:            Yes. So, I always knew I wanted to work with words for a living, but didn't know exactly how. Long story really short, I found myself working at Delta Airlines, not really knowing what I wanted to do with my life, but I figured Delta was a big enough place that I'll probably find it there and get paid as well along the way as I figured that out. I remember working on the International Concourse, writing a few articles for newsletters, that kind of thing. Nothing big. But one evening the last flight pushed out to Santiago, Chile. That was done. Went back to the break room, working on an article, looked at the clock and an hour had gone by. And at that point I realized, ‘My God, I must really enjoy this.’ And that's when I realized I've got to find some role, some place capacity for me to write for a living. So I applied for a bunch of corp-comm jobs, marketing roles and that kind of thing. Nothing really panned out because I didn't have a degree is what it turned out to be. So I got one. Working full time, went back to school. I got a communications and rhetoric degree from my Alma Mater. Essentially once I got that... by that time I had landed a corporate communications job, but figuring that I had my degree, I had some experience, I'll go ahead and make my own way in the world as a writer. So, quit the job, jumped out of the eighth floor of corporate communications and into the tea cup of freelance. And to paint the picture of it, this was back in 2008. So, it was not the best time financially to start your own business. And that turned out to be my biggest failure was trying to go out of my own way too early and really without any kind of plan. Went through our savings, racked up some debt, wasn't good. But some good lessons. So, that's a positive of there. So what did I do? I decided to go in-house, get a full-time job, benefits, had a family at the time, still do. But I had people depending on me as the main breadwinner. So, for security and to provide for them and also get some more experience, I got a job at a big four professional services firm as an editor. Great organization, got some more experience, but I was really feeling that that writing itch, just wanted to write versus edit and proofread and that kind of thing. So, a few years after getting that role, I left the firm to a senior writing gig. And it was great, but it was very short-lived for a number of reasons on both sides of the conference room table. So after that point, what I did was go to a number of smaller agencies from gig to gig essentially. Some really bigger names like Home Depot and whatnot, but also some local brands and businesses, Peachtree Bikes, FORM yoga in Atlanta. I was just piecing things together. Even had to deliver pizzas at one point to pay the bills, but decided to go back to the firm in a marketing writer capacity, which had me doing some internal external kind of stuff. Again, building a lot of experience. While at the firm though, could kick myself for doing this, but I took another role, which was decidedly less writing, more project management communications in the broader sense, which was good. And it had his own lessons but wasn't really writing. So, a few years later, I left the firm again and took a job as a ‘copywriter’ officially. And it was great for about a year until I got a call one day and said that they had eliminated my role. So at that point, I decided to go ahead and say, ‘You know what? I'm going to take my side hustle, I'm going to move this thing front and center.’ I had known for a long time that at one point I was going to be my own boss running my own company and writing for a living. Kind of determining the terms rather than having them dictated to me. This was my opportunity. There is a moment where I thought, ‘Well, maybe, okay, I really should go and stay in-house with somebody, again, for that security.’ Right? But honestly, that lasted for about 15 seconds. And I said, ‘You know what universe, this is what I need to do.’ And so the business Cantilever Creative officially began and celebrated a year back in November of 2019. Rob:   So, can we go back to that moment when you were laid off? We've talked with other people who have found copywriting after being laid off in a few episodes ago. Kira and I talked about how I had to lay a bunch of people off and was laid off myself from a job like that. Tell us what did that feel like and was it a moment of panic or were you ready to go? Was it a moment of excitement? Derek:            Well, Rob I guess it was a very, very short period, minutes really of panic when I got that call. Like I said, I hadn't expected this, right? It hit me out of the blue. The work was good. It's just they got rid of the role and I'm a casualty of corporate America. But I was really excited after I got over the anxiety. It's like, ‘Well, wait a second. Wait a second, wait a second. Derek, you got this man.’ You have to understand, I mean, as soon as I'd started that job and here's the really cool thing. When I started that job, I had a commute and I wanted to use a commute to my advantage. So what turned out to be like an hour and a half every day, I listened to y'all. Honest to God, the first week I started there I was like, ‘Okay. Well, let me see what kind of podcast I can tune into.’ Did a Google search, Copywriter Club popped up. Rest is history. So, pretty much every day to and from work, I was listening to these great copywriters, Rye and Joel and everybody else. Just learning from them. I felt like I got a masterclass in the car to and from this work, the work that I was where I was. But to me, there was an excitement because I had had basically a year of experience and education under my belt. I built this incredible network with The Copywriter Club and The Underground. And honestly, I just, I felt ready. I felt prepared. I felt like, ‘Heck yeah, man, you can do this. Let's make this happen.’ So, yeah, there's a moment of panic. But at the same time, there's this lasting feeling of exhilaration. Like now's the time. You can do it. Let's go. Rob:   So obviously there was a pretty big difference between the first time that you went freelance and this time you've been a lot more successful this time. What have you done to find clients and to really get your business moving? Derek:            Yeah. So, how do I find clients to keep my business moving? I had had, think like a lot of us, I had a freelance side hustle going even while working the full time jobs, whether it be like one of the like for pocket money or something to keep things creative. So, I'd had that going along all the while. And for me in business and life really, relationships are so vital. Finding those connections and really treating relationships preciously. That applied to these freelance clients as well. So, when I found out that I didn't have a job anymore,

Copywriter, coach and expert marketer, Ray Edwards is our guest for the 174th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. In this wide ranging conversation, Kira and Rob asked Ray about his business, how he got started, the changes he's making in his business and life, and what he does to accomplish more than most other people... even things he thinks are impossible. Here are a few of the things we covered: •  how Ray went from radio host to copywriter •  the experiences he had working in radio that help him in his copywriting career •  his tattoos… what they are and why had has them •  what has happened in Ray’s life and business over the last few years •  what can happen when you remove the fear from your life •  why it’s important to let your hidden personal beliefs influence your work persona •  the power of impossible goals to set off a quantum leap in your life and business •  why worthy failures are critical for achieving your impossible goals •  Ray’s two-word counsel you need to hear—especially if you’re not operating at your best •  the unspoken part of the law of manifestation and how to manifest things into your life •  the things that have made the biggest difference in Ray’s business •  what he would do today if he had to start over with nothing •  drag racing rental cars when he travels •  what’s next for Ray and where you can reach out to him If you want to accomplish more than you ever thought possible, you'll want to listen to this episode. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript. Or download the episode to your favorite podcast player.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Jack Canfield Frank Kern Tony Robbins Ray’s podcast Ray’s Instagram Ray’s website Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground   Full Transcript: Kira:   This episode is brought to you by The Copywriter Club In Real Life, our live event in San Diego, March 12th through the 14th. Get your tickets now at thecopywriterclub.com/TCCIRL. Rob:   What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That's what Kira and I do every week at The Copywriter Club Podcast. Kira:   You're invited to join the club for episode 174 as we chat with master copywriter, coach and consultant, Ray Edwards about his rise from radio personality to A-list copywriter, the relationship between his struggles and his success, the business and mindset shifts he's made in the past year and how he creates so much content every single week. Welcome Ray. Rob:   Hey Ray. Ray:   Hi, thank you. Kira:   It's great to have you here, Ray, because you are one of my mentors and I was lucky enough to be in your mastermind group last year and went through a lot of different .. my own mindset shifts just by joining that group and spending time with you. So I'm glad that we're able to dig in and ask you a bunch of questions today. I'm also surrounded by all the books you gave me because you gave me so many books from our time together. I'm still working my way through them, but they're all surrounding me right now. So I've got some Ray vibes in my office right now. Ray:   That's what happen with anybody who hangs around me, I'll actually have a book for you. Kira:   I loved it. So let's kick it off. Many of our listeners know who you are, but let's just share your story, how you ended up as a copywriter. Ray:   Well, I started in the radio business when I was 14 and I loved being on the radio. I loved storytelling. I hung out at my grandparents house a lot during those days and I used to read the National Enquirer and I was fascinated by the ads. I actually thought they were articles, I was a bit younger when this was going on. I thought they were articles, they were actually ads by Eugene Schwartz. And I just remember being fascinated by them. And later I learned that they were advertising, I learned about copywriting. So I started using that in my radio career to write ads for our clients, the stations, to write ads to promote the stations. And I did radio for over 25 years and I wrote tons of copy and I felt like I had the secret weapon because I had Jay Abraham and Claude Hopkins and Dan Kennedy and John Carlton backing me up. And nobody in radio knew who those guys were. So they were like my secret team of superheroes to make me look brilliant. And then Steve Jobs came out with this invention, the iPod and it was a thousand songs in your pocket with no commercials and no annoying DJs. And I said, oh, we're in trouble, radio business is in trouble. So I ended up getting out of radio. I figured out that people would actually pay me to write copy outside radio. And in the radio business, this is a little known fact, in the radio business, hardly anybody gets paid specifically to write copy. It's always a second job or something that you do for free. Often it's the DJ's. So think about that the next time you're making a big ad spend on radio, make sure you ask who's writing the copy. But I learned that copy was valued outside radio and so I hung out my shingle, I put up a webpage and just through fate, time, God, good fortune, I got linked up with some great clients in the very beginning. People like Armand Morin and Alex Mandossian and they began to recommend me to their friends. And so I ended up writing for Jack Canfield and Frank Kern and Tony Robbins and the list of illustrious folks I've had the privilege of working with goes on. And also people you've probably never heard of who are making lots of money. So I've had the chance to work with lots of different kinds of businesses and it's just been a really fun ride. Rob:   Yeah, we definitely want to talk about some of the clients you've worked for and the work that you've done. But before we leave your radio experience, I'm curious, Ray, are there things that you did as a DJ or that you learned in radio, aside from writing copy that you use today as a copywriter or that you use in the courses and the seminars that you teach? Ray:   Well, I mean there are practical things like mic technique and recording techniques. Having a sense about what makes good audio, being brief. We often had to get across a very complex message in 15 seconds, so I became pretty good at that. Although to listen to me these days, you might wonder. So it’s really thinking about probably the key skill that I learned in radio that's certainly well in copywriting is I came out of radio with a real sense of every time we wrote an ad or a promotional piece or we said anything on the air, it's valuable time. Time literally is money on the radio, so we had to know what do we want to happen as a result of what we're saying. So I had that peculiar focus on what's my most desired outcome for what I'm saying right now. And that has served me well in copy, I'm sure. Kira:   Ray, I want to talk about your tattoos. So I want to know what tattoos you have, what they say if you're willing to share and what they ... Everything, the catalyst for getting the tattoos and what they mean to you. Ray:   Okay, that was unexpected, I did say ask me anything. So I started thinking about getting a tattoo a couple of years ago and I hired an assistant whose name is Tiffany Laughter. She co-hosted the podcast with me now and she had a few tattoos and we would go, when we traveled to different cities to go to events and whatnot. She'd want to go to a tattoo shop. And I just started thinking this seems kind of interesting. I think I'd like to get a tattoo. And so I ended up, I was fascinated for a long time with owls. So my first tattoo is on my right shoulder, it is an owl and to me it represents, the owl represents wisdom and eyes that pierce the darkness. So that's why I got that tattoo and I got it ... It's rather large. It's like the size of your open hand. I didn't realize I was naive. I didn't want to ... Most people don't start with a big tattoo. Kira:   That's very brave. Ray:   Or stupid, but I endured and I was very happy with the result. Plus the other thing I did that was kind of crazy on that one was we're just in Nashville and we were driving by this shop and we just pulled in and talked to the artists. And I said, ‘Well, let's do it.’ I had no idea who this guy was or whether he was any good or ... But it turned out well. That's the first tattoo I got, the next tattoo I got was the Memento Mori tattoo, which is on my left forearm. And of course that phrase means, roughly translated from Latin, it means remember you are going to die and it's meant to get you to contemplate your mortality, not from a sad kind of spooky way, but to realize you've only got so much time. So be aware that, that's true. So on the other arm, I have a Latin phrase that is Vita Abundat which means live abundantly. So to me, those two go together. And then I have on my left shoulder, I have, this is the biggest piece of artwork I have so far. It goes from the top of my shoulder all the way down to my elbow. I have a tattoo of a lion and underneath the lion is the petals of a Rose. And it represents a courage and beauty and grace. Kira:   Yeah. And we can check out all those photos to anyone listening, if you want to check it out, check out Ray's Instagram feed, they're nice shots, especially that last one. Ray:   Thank you. I have one more tattoo, the most recent one I got is just inside my right elbow and it says SOU and it has a date, 3/23/85 and it has a special meaning for me and my wife. The date is our anniversary. Rob:   Very cool. And anybody who's listened to your podcast, Ray, realizes that the tattoos are maybe part of a change that you've been going through, not just in life, but in business.

Accountant and business consultant, Erik Solbakken, is the guest for episode 173 of The Copywriter Club Podcast. If you saw that Erik is an accountant and thought, "maybe I'll skip this one" don't. Because we didn't really talk with Erik about the typical accounting stuff. Instead, Erik shared how he changed the pricing model for his service business and how copywriters can do the same thing. Now instead of trading time for money, a signifiant portion of Erik's income is completely independent of the time he spends working with clients. Instead, he makes more when he creates more value.  Kira and Rob asked Erik about: •  how he went from tax accountant to strategic consultant •  what he did to significantly change how he earns a living as an accountant •  the realization that how long a thing takes isn’t connected to its value •  the three lies business owners tell themselves about money •  a breakdown of why value can’t be attached to the time spent to create it •  why working with clients doesn’t have to suck •  the 4 step solution to solving any problem—and the most important step •  the 10-10-10 model for pricing coaching services •  why he insists his clients “never sell” •  the 3 Cs Erik covers on every sales call •  the mistakes that are all too easy to make when selling on value •  his total launch failures and the impact it had on his business This is an episode you won't want to miss. To hear it, click the play button below, or download the episode to your favorite podcast player. And if you're rather read, you can scroll down for a full transcript and links to some of the people and things we talked about.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Jeff Walker Erik’s website Accountant Success Formula Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground   Full Transcript: Transcript is underway...

Allison Evelyn Gower is our guest for the 172nd episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. We asked Allison about her experience creating her first program, what inspired her to move fast, and how she got scrappy to fill it. She offers plenty of learning and advice to anyone who is thinking of creating a program or course. Here's the outline of what we covered during this interview: •  what inspired her transition from film production to copywriting •  how she learned to be “scrappy” as a production assistant •  how Allison landed her first few clients •  what’s happened in her business since she launched—lots of changes •  the process she went through to find her niche •  the 3 things that have been the biggest game changers for her business •  how she pulls brand personality out of her clients •  the answers Rob and Kira gave to one of Allison’s on-boarding questions •  how to get feedback from clients on the words that describe you •  secrets for identifying the language that shows off your personality •  how you project your personality into the world •  what she did when she launched her day-rate package •  why she decided to launch a group program—and how Kira lit a fire under her •  how Allison mapped out her program and created her content •  what she did to fill her first program—an idea she stole from Tarzan Kay •  the things she’s doing differently as she relaunches the course •  how to run a business while moving across the country If your copywriting business could be scrappier or you're looking for some launch inspiration for your first product, you won't want to miss this interview. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript. Better still, subscribe on iTunes or Stitcher so you never miss an episode.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Joe Nefziger Tarzan Kay Laura Belgray The Copywriter Think Tank Allison's Website The Brand with Bite Podcast Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground   Full Transcript: Kira:   This episode is brought to you by The Copywriter Club In Real Life, our live event in San Diego, March 12th through the 14th. Get your tickets now at thecopywriterclub.com/tccirl. Rob:   What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That's what Kira and I do every week at The Copywriter Club Podcast. Kira:   You're invited to join the club for episode 172 as we chat with copywriter and product creator Allison Gower about how she became a copywriter, her first big solo product launch. How she's changed the work she does over time, launching a podcast and running a business while moving across the country. Welcome Allison. Allison:          Hey mates. How's it going? Kira:   Good. It's always good with you. It's always good. So we're so excited to have you here to talk more about your story. Let's kick it off with how you became a copywriter. Allison:          Oh my life, in a summary. Yes, let's go. So the long story short, I was always making up ads and writing as a kid and doing all these things that had no idea what actually does something later in life. Right? Like I think a lot of us, copywriters and people in brand, we look back as kids and are like, ‘Oh yeah.’ Rob:   We don't normally interrupt you in the story. But ads as a kid, what were you writing ads of? Allison:          Me and my best friend, elementary school, we came up with this candy bar and we called it a nitwit bar and we created the packaging. We actually made a barn, created the design and then we created commercials for it. And then we had a school project where honestly, you didn't really have to do very much but we went real hard and then create a commercial and performed it. So we would do stuff like that all the time for fun. And yet it took me another two decades to figure out what I wanted to do. Which is kind of funny, because it should have been obvious. So doing stuff like that. Majored in English, minored marketing, was working in production. So it sounds glamorous to say we had headsets and we're in LA working on shoots and all the things. But what I discovered was even though there was a lot I loved about the production world, commercials and photo shoots and all the things I always felt this jealousy almost of the agencies we worked with, because then I would partner with them, it would be story-boarding and saying, ‘Oh here are the words, this is what the brand should be.’ And then we would take our stuff and go make the commercial happen. I always felt like, ‘Oh the fun part was in the room that we just left.’ And I think sometimes a little bit of... We feel that envy or sadness like, ‘That show is what we're supposed to be doing.’ It was one of the gents who would be in the story boarding sessions who were on a shoot one day. And I saw him taking notes and I didn't know his exact role. Right? I just knew he was in those rooms, in the storyboard meetings. I asked him, ‘Joe, what do you do? What's your actual specific title?’ And he said, ‘I'm a copywriter.’ And I said, ‘I'm going to change my life.’ Because I asked them what that meant specifically in his role and from there on I basically stalked him a little bit. ‘Mike, let me get coffee with you, check his first workshop.’ And I spent eight months, while still working in production, getting up at 3:00 AM for sunrise shoots, running around, getting Perrier for clients, real wild times. Y'all real wild times. Every weekend, everyday after work, learning everything I could about copywriting on YouTube and podcasts and got my first freelance gigs. My first one was off Craigslist. Yes. Seems janky but totally was legit. And then went freelance after eight months, turned it into a business. And Rob and Kira, here we are. Here's life. Rob:   Yeah. Before we get to today's life, I want to jump back just a little bit to those first couple of projects. I'm guessing that a lot of people listening, struggling to find their first clients or they found the first one or two but then they struggled to do more. So back about how you found that first client, what was it that you did in order to get that janky, almost changing client, but then how did you turn that into client number two and client number three? Allison:          Oh y'all, it was super strategic, as in really scrappy. So not fancy at all. My first client I found on Craigslist and because I started interviewing copywriters, I was very lucky to be in this production world where I was meeting with copywriters and I would just ask them on the side, ‘By the way, how did you get your clients?’ I would question, I would take notes on everything that they said. So basically like your podcast before, I think your podcast existed. So going around and finding and hunting these people down and someone said, ‘It sounds weird, but go on Craigslist.’ So I figured, what do I have to lose? So on Craigslist there was a lot of things that your gut goes off, your gut knows, ‘Okay, that's a weird sketchy situation.’ So I just went through every day until I found one that I felt I could actually be a fit for. Did it feel natural? Absolutely not. Because if you've never charged for your own writing before, you don't really know what you're doing, what pay you're supposed to expect and all these things. But it was for a blog and it was about my neighborhood where I already lived and they wanted someone local to put out blogs and posts and they were charging by the word and I went, ‘Okay.’ I was Googling, ‘Do you charge by the word?’ Right? Looking at the things and figured this is something I could do. I wrote an email where I sounded like I already knew what I was doing. I'm not going to lie. Full on, ‘This is why you should hire me. I'm going to crush this for you. Here's all the reasons.’ Went through all the things, was a very confident email, even though I did not feel super confident, and got that. My second client y'all, this is so scrappy. I was dating someone for just a couple of weeks and he had a friend community for pizza with a group hang situation. And I just was starting to say I was a writer. I was just saying it to people. Like, ‘Oh what do you do?’ ‘I work in production, I'm a writer on the side. I write.’ I just kept saying it because I figured if I kept saying it I would feel more and more it was true, because I knew I could write. It was just, I hadn't been paid much for it before. And his friend turned out, worked at an agency and said, ‘Oh we need freelance writers all the time.’ And he got me my second gig, this random friend. So the lesson I suppose in this is sometimes it really is just speaking up all the time about what you do, because I only had literally one client, but I spoke like I was doing more with confidence, because I knew I could do it if I got the chance. I knew I could, I just needed someone to take a chance on me. Kira:   Yeah. It's almost like speaking to where you want to go. Speaking about like your future title. I mean even though you'd already had your first project, you were really forecasting the direction you wanted to take your career and you weren't shy in a way from saying that. So it started to come to you and worked out that way. So who is the original, the copywriter guy that you originally asked? ‘Hey, what do you do on set?’ ‘Have you kept track of him?’ Allison:          Yeah, I went to his house warming party actually a couple of years later, because I moved and it turned out the house that him and his wife bought was down the street from my apartment. So it was funny. Yeah, I still saw him. Now he's doing... His name is Joseph Nefzinger. Joe, what's up?