The Copywriter Club Podcast

Copywriter Per Andreasen interviews Rob and Kira for the 190th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. Per kicks off the interview with the Intro in Danish... which will probably confuse a few listeners expecting to hear our regular intro... then we talked about what's up with us and how the podcast will be changing in the near future. Here's most of what we talked about: •  what the intro sounds like in Danish… thanks to Per Andreasen •  how to thrive in a crisis—Rob’s advice for surviving a recession •  what has happened to our business since the virus became a “thing” •  the Copywriter Roundtable… and why we don’t promote it •  how The Copywriter Club evolved into what it is today •  how The Copywriter Club is a bit like a cult •  how we deal with imposter complex ourselves •  when the biggest leaps in our business have happened •  why we haven’t offered certifications for the training we provide •  our biggest program failure and what we did instead •  the changes we are making to the podcast in the future •  where we think copywriting is going in the future •  why some copywriters are busier than ever during the COVID crisis •  good example of advertising in response to the economic crisis •  what we are doing in our own businesses this year •  when to expect the very first Copywriter Club event in Europe •  a bit about Per’s business too If you're interested in what's going on in our businesses, and what's next for The Copywriter Club, you'll want to check out this episode. Scroll down to listen or for a full transcript. Or better yet, download it to your podcast player now.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: The Copywriter Accelerator The Copywriter Think Tank The tattoo video Gin Walker Elaine Wellman Brian Kurtz  The intro/outro competition details FB post Kim Krause Schwalm Per’s Website Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground   Full Transcript: Per Andreasen:   [Speaking in Danish] Hvad nu hvis du kunne hænge ud med seriøst talentfulde copywritere og andre eksperter. Spørge dem om deres succeser og fiaskoer, deres processer og vaner for så at stjæle en idé eller to som kan inspirere dit eget arbejde? Det er hvad Rob og Kira gør hver eneste uge på…The Copywriter Club Podcast. Yes, this is still The Copywriter Club Podcast. You're invited to join them for Episode 190 as former journalist and now the world's strongest copywriter, Per Andreasen, lovingly grills them on this and that. Rob:   Our Danish audience is going to go through the roof with this episode. So, for this episode of the podcast, we've invited our friend and someone who has participated in The Copywriter Accelerator, The Copywriter Think Tank, has been to all three TCC IRLs, and is the only copywriter that we know in Denmark, I think, to interview us for the podcast and that is, Per Andreasen, the strongest copywriter in the world. Kira:   Yeah, 190, that's pretty crazy. Per Andreasen:   It's amazing. So, the last time I saw you two guys was at your amazing real life event in San Diego, and you've already gone through all your takeaways before, so I want to talk about the crisis that made everything about the event feel even more special than your previous events. Especially, Rob, your talk was about how to thrive in a crisis, can you repeat some of that advice and how that has stayed true? Rob:   I can definitely repeat a lot of the advice, it was kind of... I guess it was a timely talk. I wasn't assuming that it was going to be quite as timely as it was, as I was preparing it. I kind of thought we might be due for a recession in the next year or two, maybe in six months but wasn't thinking that it was going to come together the way that it quite did. And so, I just gave some tips for how to deal with working in a recession. And you can get all of those tips in the videos from the event that we have made available. But I guess, one or two of the main takeaways, and we've talked about them in a couple places, having an anchor client, this isn't necessarily an ideal client or a client that you love, but a client who is going to consistently pay you money so that you don't have to worry about the mortgage or keeping the lights on, or feeding your family. Because when you are dealing with that kind of stress, it changes the way that you're able to approach your work and new clients, and you start operating from a place of fear rather than from your expertise and from your ability to create value for your clients. And so, that was one of the recommendations that I made. We talked a little bit about investing wisely. It seems a little counterintuitive sometimes when money gets tight to say that you should be investing, and we certainly wouldn't recommend that people take on debt to invest in a coach or a program of some kind, but that if you need a skill or you need to think about your business differently, that it can be a really smart investment to hire somebody to help you with that or to find the right course, the right group of people, the right mastermind to hang out with and really help uplevel your business. So, those are maybe two of the biggest takeaways, without all of the fun stories that I added to make the presentation interesting. Per Andreasen:   Cool. So, you did say that the NASDAQ shot up right after you came off stage, but how have your points aged within your own business? Rob:   Well, yeah, I mean, the NASDAQ had crashed and then it had a really good day right after I spoke. So, I want to take credit for that. I mean, I don't know that our business has changed significantly, as far as The Copywriter Club goes, we have been able to find people to join the Accelerator. People are still interested in and joining the Underground. We have a good group of people who joined our Think Tank. All of that has happened since everything kind of went south right after the event, and so I think it's just an indication that business still goes on, there's still needs in the market that need to be met. And if you have the right programs, if you have connected with people in the right way, it's still possible to sell things even when everything else looks like it might be going crazy. Per Andreasen:   What do you think, Kira? Kira:   Yeah, I would just add that in our business, we're lucky to have this online business that we can continue to run and we weren't sure how it would go. I definitely had some moments early on after the event where I was just like, I don't even know if we're going to be able to continue running. I felt that way. But once we jumped in and just continued to try and to try to fill our programs... I mean, the crazy part about all of this happening for us is that our event kind of marks almost like the beginning of our year, and that's when we launch our programs. And I guess I didn't realize that we launched most of our programs right after our event. And so, in some ways, the timing wasn't great to launch at least three of our new programs, but like, Rob said, we were able to fill all of the programs and continue to run all the programs. That surprised me. But I think the people we've attracted into the Accelerator Program, into our Think Tank Mastermind, and even into our newer Roundtable Mastermind, they're all just very serious about getting results. Very intense in a way, because they're not messing around, and any investment they make needs to have an ROI, and I can feel that intensity. So, I think for me, I feel the weight of that sometimes, not like we weren't delivering prior to COVID, but I do feel the weight, we really need to help every person who invests in our programs get results, because this is such a critical time where their business could make it or not. And so, the big change really, for me is around the delivery of the programs and that we're providing more support. We're adding to what we've already created in the past because the copywriters in the programs really need more and they're overwhelmed, and they need more support with implementation. They don't really need to sit through more courses or trainings right now. They need help taking action and figuring out what to prioritize because most of us have half the time we had a couple months ago. And so, we need to know, what do I need to do with half the time to keep my business running and to grow my business? Per Andreasen:   Cool. So, I don't know if you've gone into this in a previous episode, but you launched the Roundtable membership very discreetly at the event. Can you go into a little bit of detail about what's going on there? Rob:   Really, discreetly, nobody's heard of it. Kira:   This is probably the first time we're actually mentioning it on the podcast, I don't think we've actually mentioned it before. Rob:   Is it a secret society? Kira:   It kind of is. I almost didn't want to even mention it because it is like a secret society. And it's a mastermind that we created that is... Basically, the catalyst was from members who had participated in the Think Tank mastermind which, Per, you're a member of, and they had experienced it for a couple of years and grown dramatically in their business. And they were kind enough to give us some feedback as far as, they wanted to continue working with us. They wanted to continue in the mastermind, but the conversations they needed at that point in their business as they've grown, and they're hitting multiple six figures, the conversation and the support they need is very different from the type of support that's in the Think Tank where copywriters are making anywhere from 5K a month to 10K a month and growing from there. Kira:   So, once we realize there's two conversations and these two very different levels in business,

In the 189th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, Kira and Rob talk with A-lister Carline Anglade Cole on how supporting her firefighter husband led to a career as a copywriter, what she learned from her mentor Clayton Makepeace, how she connects with her prospects and more. Here's a bit of what we covered... •  her ballsy approach to scoring a 2-hour interview for a marketing position •  how she learned the craft of copywriting without courses or books •  how doing a great job on a promotion got her fired (and 6 months of severance) •  the WWCD question that helped her write a promotion that got a 5% response •  what she’s done to go deeper with copy than most copywriters •  her life as a 50 year old white man •  what she learned from working with Clayton Makepeace •  her approach to testing a lot emotions so the market comes to her •  how her income went up every time Clayton criticized her writing •  what it takes to write kick-butt copy that resonates with her audience •  the “mom test” she uses to make sure she believes in the product •  how she reworks her copy to make sure it’s as strong as possible •  her kids—three of four of whom have worked as copywriters This episode should not be missed. To hear it, click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript. Or add it to your podcast player now.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Clayton Makepeace Gary Bencivenga Kim Schwalm Marcella Allison Carline's Website Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground   Full Transcript: Kira:   This episode is brought to you by The Copywriter Underground. The place to find more than 20 templates, dozens of presentations on topics like copywriting, and marketing, and mindset. A community of successful writers, who share ideas and leads, and The Copywriter Club newsletter, which is mailed directly to your home every month. Learn more at thecopywriterunderground.com. Rob:   If you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their success and failures, their work processes and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work, that's what Kira and I do every week, at The Copywriter Club Podcast. Kira:   You're invited to join the club for episode 189, as we chat with A list health copywriter, Carline Anglade-Cole, about working with and learning from her mentor, Clayton Makepeace. Her life as a 50 year-old white man, hiring her kids to write copy for her, connecting emotionally with the buyers she writes for and what it takes to write kick butt copy. Welcome, Carline. Rob:   Hey, Carline. Carline:    Hey guys, how are you? Rob:   We're doing good. Carline:    I liked the intro, Kira. Kira:   That was all Rob, Rob wrote that one. Carline:    Oh, Rob, very nice, very nice. Kira:   So we're excited to have you back. We tried to record this, I don't know, was it a year ago, more than a year ago now and I had major tech issues and so we didn't know if this interview was ever going to happen, and I'm so glad that it will. So thanks, Carline for coming back. Carline:    Thanks for inviting me. Kira:   And let's kick it off with your story. How did you end up as a copywriter? Carline:    Definitely, it was not a life plan. I had no idea what copywriting was. I had gone to school and got my degree in communications and journalism, so I always knew I wanted to be in the writing field somehow, but didn't quite know how. I just sort of stumbled across the whole copywriting thing when I got a job working at Phillips Publishing. At the time, I had a two and a half year-old and a one-year-old and I was just looking for a job that would complement my husband's schedule. He was a firefighter and he worked shift work. So we had these kids and we wanted to be home with our kids ourselves. So I had to find some kind of a job that would allow me to have a flexibility of being off when he had to work. And then the days were shifts, so it would change. And I happened to stumble across an ad in the paper for a customer service job for a direct response company, called Phillips Publishing. The biggest draw to me with that ad, was just that flexible schedule. So I called and I interviewed and I got the job, working at customer service and that's how I got into the whole direct response business. I had no idea how it worked, but here I was now answering phone calls and talking to customers and then I'm seeing these renewal letters going and I'm hearing about different aspects of direct mail. And I'm like, "Wow, this is interesting, but again, totally new to me." And as I was working there, the company was very entrepreneurial, I mean, if you had an idea, didn't matter where you worked, if you had an idea, you could submit an idea. And then if it was a good one, they'd give you credit for it and help make it happen. So I loved that environment and Tom Phillips and Bob King were the two guys there that were running the show. And just did an excellent job, so it was a great opportunity to learn from the ground floor. And I worked in customer service there, I was there and then I end up switching over to the accounting department. Again, flexible schedule was the key. And I got probably an extra two bucks an hour, moving over to accounting. And I have a way of talking myself into jobs, because I have no accounting background whatsoever. But I got a job in the accounting department and we had to reconcile the bank statements. So I did that for about a year and a half and while working in the accounting department, was when I started seeing paperwork coming through for a new division that was going to be starting up, within Phillips Publishing. At the time it was only a financial newsletter, but now they're about to launch the health market. And I was like, "Now, this sounds interesting." So I'm seeing that they're really trying to grow this and then now we're seeing that they're looking for people with marketing background and all kinds of skills that they're looking for, for that division and I had none of those skills. But it sounded interesting and I wanted to try it. Well, one of the jobs I had in the accounting department was, every Friday I had to stay as late as necessary to distribute what was called the green sheet. Every day we'd get the green sheet, it would have the daily sales for the company. But on Friday, it would give us the total for the week and other information in there. So, that was a very coveted piece of information that the powers that be, Bob King, and Tom Phillips and other CBPs in the company were waiting for that green sheet. And I was the one that had to put the last numbers in it and then I had to go around and hand deliver it to the key people in the company. Well, Bob King was hiring, he was in charge of this health division and I had applied. I had tried to get a job the traditional way of applying, but nobody was getting back to me. So I decided I was taking matters into my own hands, and so it was a Friday and I decided, okay, this is it. So I go to Bob, I go in his office. And usually Bob has his head down and just kind of puts his hand up and he goes, "Hi, Carline, thank you." And then that's it. Like, "Hey, Bob, here you go, bye." But this time, he had his head down and I walked in and I held the green sheet about maybe six or eight inches from his grasp. So, that he had to look up to realize he couldn't get it. And here I am holding it and as he's leaning to get it, I'm pulling it back further. And he's like, "Okay, what's going on?" I'm like, "Hey, I've been trying to get an interview for a job in this department, but nobody's getting back to me. So I need an interview. I need you to give me a job, and do something here." And he says, "So you're pretty much holding this ransom for me?" I'm like, "You know what, call it what you want to. I need an interview; I need an interview." And this for like a marketing assistant position. And so I'm sitting there going, he's looking like, if you knew Bob King, deadpan, very serious person, very wonderful person. But never gives off any emotion initially. So I'm standing there, I'm not budging and he's not getting that green sheet, until he gets me an interview. And so he's like, "Are you serious?" I'm like, "Yeah, I want to interview for the marketing position." And so next thing I know, he pulls out his calendar. He says, "Okay, let's do this." And he actually gives me an interview date. I'm like, "Oh my God." So I said, "Thank you." And I got out of there as quick as possible. Then I got a phone call from his secretary to set up the actual meeting. And I will tell you, that was probably the most intense interview I have ever had in my entire life, I mean, my career. And I've had many interviews for other positions, much higher than that. But for a marketing assistant position, that Bob King interviewed me for, it was over two hours long, yeah. I love to sew and I was making my clothes, two reasons, I love to sew, second is, I couldn't afford to buy the stuff that I liked. So I had made this really pretty green suit, with a navy blue trim too, it was kind of like a Chanel look suit. Oh a fitted skirt, a pencil skirt, it was really cute. So I say that because I was sitting in that interview with Bob King and by the end of that interview, I had ruined the suit with the sweat that had been pouring down from my back. I mean, I stained all the back of my suit. I'm like, "Oh my gosh." But he just asked such intense questions and was really just trying to get to know who I was and wanted to just kind of make sure there's a connection. [inaudible] I'm like, "You do this type of intensive interview for a marketing assistant, are you serious?" And he says, "Oh no, I'm not hiring you as a marketing assistant." He says,

In the 188th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, Kira and Rob talk with Gin Walker on how her experience as a stage actor influences her writing process, her REACH framework, the misunderstanding that turned her into a copywriter, and what she does to manage the competing interests in her life.  Here’s the outline of what we covered during this interview: •  the airplane discussion that “mistakenly” turned her into a copywriter •  the podcast that helped her discover what copywriting is •  the difference between copy editing and copywriting •  how she landed her first few clients after she made her career switch •  what she did to build on her initial success and grow her business •  how attending TCCIRL changed her business •  how being an actor has helped Gin as a copywriter •  how she uses her R.E.A.C.H. framework as she works with clients •  what she does to manage all the competing interests in her life •  how her business has changed over the past year •  what her business looks like today •  the mindset issue she struggles with and how she deals with it •  her experience as the closing speaker at TCCIRL Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: The Copywriter Accelerator The Copywriter Think Tank The Copywriter Club In Real Life Joanna Wiebe Ry Schwartz Joel Klettke Hillary Weiss Tarzan Kay Rob Braddock Gin’s Website Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground   Full Transcript: Rob:   This episode is brought to you by The Copywriter Underground, the place to be if you want to master marketing mindset and copywriting in your business and hit 10K a month without losing your mind. Learn more at TheCopywriterUnderground.com. Kira:   What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That's what Rob and I do every week at The Copywriter Club podcast. Rob:   You're invited to join the club for episode 188 as we chat with copywriter and TCCIRL closing speaker Gin Walker about her journey to copywriting, the advantages that she gets from being a stage actor that apply to copywriting, her reach framework, what she's done to grow her business this year, and what she would do differently if she had to start over today. Kira:   Welcome, Gin. Rob:   Hey, Gin. Gin:   Hello, guys. How are you doing? Kira:   Good. Great to have you here. We have known you for a while. You were in the Copywriter Accelerator program, and then the Copywriter Think Tank Mastermind, and most recently, you spoke on stage at The Copywriter Club in real life in San Diego. So, we've seen firsthand how you've grown in your business, and I'll be fun today to share a little bit more about what's been happening behind the scenes. So, why don't we start with your story and how you ended up as a copywriter? Gin:   Right. Sure, absolutely. Well, it's been relatively recent that I transitioned into copywriting in fact. I started out in educational publishing. I was a copyeditor for the longest time. Decades, in fact. So, yeah, I've been altering minds with word power for a little while. I was a copyeditor, as I say, and a commissioning editor. I was also a kids' science author within that educational field. I went into that basically straight from university, straight after I graduated way back, and I worked up from the bottom there. But then I went freelance, in fact. I worked in-house at a couple of large educational publishers in the UK, this was. But then went freelance way back in 1995. Well, I continued to work with various publishers that I had worked for in-house for a little while, but then it branched out and I was working for various educational publishers. Because I got myself into really quite a narrow niche by accident, and I didn't even know what niching was in those days, to be fair, but I was working as a science editor. In fact, people often used to ask me, "How did you get into publishing when you had a science degree?" Because I did [inaudible] biological sciences at university for my first degree. Yes, the fact that I did sciences doesn't mean I can't read and write. But nevertheless, it was relatively unusual to be working in the publishing field with that kind of background. So, yeah, I did end up doing similar work for various publishers, especially biology books, but also chemistry, physics. This was at the school level, the kind of high school level. But during all that time, even when I'd gone freelance, I was still very much in the order taker, basically outsourced employee mindset. I was there exclusively for my clients and I had no concept that I had really any control over the direction of my business. It was great. It was actually hugely flexible at a time when I was moving house a fair number of times. I had four kids during this period when I was working as a freelance editor. I even moved continents. I moved here to the US and I live in Colorado. It was incredibly flexible and it meant that I could work when it suited me. I was never short of work because, as I say, I've got myself into this fairly narrow niche that meant I was pretty much always in demand, so that was great. But, as I say, I wasn't earning a whole lot because I had no concept that I could actually ask for any more than I was offered for any particular project. Fast forward through all of that, it really was, as I say, great for the time, but by four, five, six years ago, I was really wanting something new. By that time, I was living here in the States, still working for British publishers for the main part, although they were publishing internationally, so the books went all round the world. But I was aware at that point that I needed some kind of structure or some kind of career path. I wanted to feel like I could make progress because I was just starting. I was on this plateau. I thought at the time it meant that that would, for me, would mean going back in-house to work for some sort of publishing company. I did actually get the job here in Colorado, in-house, for a very brief time. It was awful to be fair, and showed me by that time, to be honest, I was entirely unemployable. I could not work in-house doing something that I didn't feel invested in, I didn't feel was worthwhile. I didn't feel it was creative. I didn't feel that my input and my expertise by that point was really being used. It showed me that I needed to do something for myself. I needed to build something for myself that would fulfill this need to be creative and to do something that was worthwhile for me. The reason that I got into copywriting, because at that point I still didn't really know what copywriting was, I was still working on this editorial plane, so to speak, I was mistaken for a copywriter on a plane, basically. I was on a flight back from London here to Denver. As I was sitting next to this guy and inevitably the conversation started, "Oh, what do you do" sort of thing, and I explained that I was a copyeditor. He had heard not copyeditor but copywriter, and he actually ran a company that helped startups get to the next level, so he was involved with people who needed copy for websites and so on. But we did exchange business cards by the end of the flight, and so the next day he actually emailed me and said, "Oh, I think I've got some work for you." It was funny because obviously I knew, but I didn't do what he thought I did, and yet I knew I could. But because he did suggest that this might be a regular thing that he'd need me to do more, I went away and thought, oh my goodness, well I really ought to find out what this thing is that I don't do. Hence my research began into copywriting and what it was all about. As soon as I started diving in, oh my goodness, it really justified that initial feeling that I shouldn't say no to this guy because I felt this is what I should have been doing all along almost. It was using so many skills that I already had, but in a much more creative way and helping people to get their message across was something that I was really passionate about. But yes, so that is when I first discovered this amazing podcast, in fact. This was my very first, almost one of the first podcasts I ever listened to. I wasn't really into podcasts at that time. But when I discovered this one, you'd only just begun in fact. I think I only had to catch up, I don't know, half a dozen episodes or so. This is how I discovered what copywriting was. Then, through The Copywriter Club, also the Facebook group and so on, I started to hear about Joanna Wiebe and various other amazing people. I got into Copy School very early on and started all that training. The rest is kind of history in a sense. I feel like I've been on a fabulous ride ever since. Rob:   Yeah, awesome. Thanks for saying such nice things about the podcast. We definitely appreciate that. I'm curious, Gin, are there skills that you learned or developed as a copyeditor that directly apply to what you do as a copywriter today, or are they so different that it just was sort of a career change, one led to the other. Gin:   They are extraordinarily different in fact. When I was editing for educational publishers, and it does depend on the kind of copyediting you're doing of course, but I wasn't working in magazines or, I mean that's more [inaudible] editing anyway, but I was working in books mainly. There was online stuff as well, but that was very much at the beginning of online educational stuff. I was editing author's books. Authors were commissioned to write stuff and I basically helped them get it better. But a lot of that role, in fact,

Conversion designer and sales page specialist Melissa Burkheimer is the guest for the 187th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. We talked a bit about why copywriters and designers don't always see eye-to-eye and what we all can do about it. We also asked Melissa about why she niched to conversion design and sales pages and her design process. Here's what we covered: •  how Melissa became a “conversion designer” and started her own business •  what she learned from investing in several programs and courses •  how she connected with Amy Porterfield through a friend of a friend the “relationship” process she followed to keep adding clients to her roster •  her thoughts about “pay to play” and what we think about it too •  what she would do to get traction if she had to start over today •  why she niched to working only on sales pages and the impact on her biz •  how she prices her sales pages and the packages she offers •  what it takes for copywriters to work closely with a designer •  the difference between a regular designer and a conversion designer •  her design process and how she works on a project •  her thoughts on wireframes provided by copywriters •  what to do when the designer wants to cut your copy •  the things that copywriters do that bug designers •  what Melissa is working on today and the future of conversion design It's another great discussion that will give you plenty to think about. Ready to hear what Melissa has to say? Click the play button below. Or scroll down for a full transcript. Or subscribe on your favorite podcast app so you never miss an episode.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Rick Mulready B-School Amy Porterfield Erica Lyremark Elizabeth Dialto Sage Polaris Gin Walker Melissa’s podcast Melissa’s website The Conversion Design School Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground   Full Transcript: Kira Hug:   This episode is brought to you by The Copywriter Underground, the place to be if you want to master marketing mindset and copywriting in your business and hit 10K a month in your business without losing your mind. Learn more at thecopywriterunderground.com. Rob Marsh:   What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes and their habits then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That's what Kira and I do every week at The Copywriter Club Podcast. Kira Hug:   You're invited to join the club for episode 187 as we chat with conversion designer Melissa Burkheimer about what copywriters need to know about the design process, how good design makes your copy way more effective, why she only works with seven clients a year and why she created the Conversion Design School. Welcome Melissa. Rob Marsh:   Hey Melissa. Melissa Burkheimer:   Hi, Kira and Rob, thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to be here. Kira Hug:   We're excited to have you here. You and I met, I don't know, three or four years ago, maybe working on a sales page project for Rick Mulready, and that's when we first met. And it was such a positive experience to work with you on the design side because I know, we'll talk about this today, but oftentimes it feels like copywriters are battling designers and designers are battling copywriters on projects. But when we worked together, it was just really collaborative and we became friends too, which it was a great surprise too. So a lot of what we're going to talk about today is how we can work together more effectively. But before we dig into that, why don't we just start with you and your story? How did you end up as a designer? Melissa Burkheimer:   So it's a funny story. So I actually had a business, I was a professional paid singer as a kid when I was eight and I quit when I was 11. And by the time I quit, my hourly rate was more than I charged when I first started my design business. But when I was in high school, I took photo journalism and I was the photo editor of the school newspaper. And so I ended up going to college right down the street from my high school planning to major in journalism. And then I found out they had a major called graphic drone journalism. So I switched really quickly and that meant I took half of my classes in the design department and half in the communication department. And so when I started college, I also got surprisingly pregnant with my now high school senior. So I was juggling a job and a baby and a relationship and a mortgage while studying. But when I graduated I got married and I had my second son. So I ended up just staying at the same job I had while I was in college because they offered part time and flexible hours before that was really a thing. And then in 2011 I got the itch to be creative. So I started networking in in-person events and got clients based on the fact that I wanted to get paid to be creative while staying home with my kids. And nine months after starting I quit my job. So that was the start. And after that I was working with local clients primarily when they needed me on an hourly basis just because I didn't really know another way. I don't feel like there were a lot of communities or trainings out there on how to start a freelance business, how to know what to charge, how to deal with crazy clients, contracts and stuff like that. So in 2013 and even 2012 I started investing in programs like B school and I took some programs with Amy Porterfield and Erika Lyremark and Elizabeth DiAlto. And I just wanted to learn how to transition my business from serving local clients to working with people online because I was just really fascinated with how these influencers were presenting themselves online. And so in 2013 which I think we'll talk about the story here in a second, I got my first sales page gig and then was referred to multiple people that I was buying courses from. They ended up being my clients and I switched primarily into doing sales pages. That's been my main offer since about 2013 and then I was a launch manager for another person for a while. And so really that's the main thing I've been doing for the last nine years since I started. Rob Marsh:   It sounds like a lot of your initial clients came from people that you were buying their programs for or from referrals. Is that how you got all of those initial clients or were there other things that you were doing? Melissa Burkheimer:   That wasn't actually how I got those clients, but investing in those programs kind of showed me what was possible. And I actually got my first sales page gig in late 2013 when a Facebook friend that I had connected with because I posted on Facebook that Amy Porterfield had liked my Facebook page, I thought that I was really cool. And so I posted that picture and there was a guy who liked that picture that I sent a Facebook friend request to not really thinking anything of it. And then he did a post on Facebook one day like the ones that we all see where it's like I'm looking for a graphic designer. And so I raised my hand, we connected, there were two available gigs, I didn't get one of them, but that gig was a sales page for Amy Porterfield. So I didn't know what the project was. I just knew that he needed a graphic designer and I raised my hand. So from there I just went on to work with a lot of other people that were in her space. And this was back again in 2013, 2014 so there weren't a lot of big names out there. I feel like the market's much different now. And so it kind of just started from there. Rob Marsh:   So I want to ask about this a little more deeply because we work with a lot of copywriters who create an ideal client list. And oftentimes ideal clients are these big name personalities in the internet space or in the coaching space. Or they may even be big companies in tech or SaaS or whatever the niche is that people are working in. And so aside from that first connection, did you have to pitch a lot of these big names? What were the other things you were doing to connect? Melissa Burkheimer:   So there was no pitching? One thing that happened was when I bought B school, that May 2013, so this was six months before I got the first sales page gig. I went to an in person mastermind and James Wedmore was there. And I didn't go there with the intention of getting him as a client at all, I wanted to learn YouTube ranking strategies from him. So he was there and then six months later, so this was January 2014 so maybe eight months later. I was on a hot seat call for a group coaching program that he had. It was a monthly membership and I was really destined to get the hot seat because I had a question and my question was, so I'm working with these local clients, they're nice, they pay me on time, the work is fine, I'm making enough to sustain our house. My husband works full time and he's always had a great job, but now I'm doing this sales page thing, which I didn't even know was a service. What should I do? And so his response was, I would love to hire you. So of course he vouched for me with the person that I had connected with because it wasn't Amy that I was working directly with, it was someone who was behind the scenes of her business at the time. And then I worked with James, did a couple of sales pages for him, did a lot of other things for him and he referred me to pretty much everyone at that time who was in his rolodex. Rob Marsh:   So just to draw the lines really clearly for myself. Again, it kind of sounds to me like the first connections happened when you started buying people's programs and then it just kind of grew because you got in the room where these people were that you wanted to be hanging out with. Is that right? Melissa Burkheimer:   Yeah.

In the 186th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, Kira and Rob talk with two ambitious copywriters who recently launched the first of many Women Led Summits. Their first summit included 45 different speakers, helped them grow their email list and actually made money. We wanted to know how they did it, so we invited Great Cate and Betsy Muse to the studio to chat. Here's what we covered: •  how Betsy and Greta became business partners •  the paths they both took to becoming copywriters •  the original vision for the women-led summit and how it came together •  what does it take to create a summit today •  all the moving pieces for producing a summit… time, editing, interviews, etc. •  how Betsy and Greta made it all work •  their favorite take aways from the 45 speakers who participated •  the impact the summit had on their list and bottom line •  the real goal of their summit (it wasn’t really about the money) •  how they promoted their summit—the promotion plan •  their advice to anyone considering creating their own summit •  how they make their partnership work—the benefit of partners •  what the future looks like for both Betsy and Greta •  how they’ve dealt with mindset issues (like introversion) as they’ve grown If you've ever considered creating a summit for your niche, you'll want to make sure to listen to this episode, which you can do when you click the play button below. Or scroll down for a full transcript.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Joanna Wiebe App Sumo WomenLedSummits.com HeySummit The Copywriter Club In Real Life Betsy’s Website Greta’s Website Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground   Full Transcript: Rob:   This episode is brought to you by The Copywriter Accelerator, 12-week program for copywriters who want to learn the business skills they need to succeed as copywriters. Learn more at thecopywriteraccelerator.com. Kira:   What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That's what Rob and I do every week at The Copywriter Club Podcast. Rob:   You're invited to join the club for episode 186 as we chat with two copywriters, Betsy Muse and Greta Cate, about forming a business partnership with another copywriter, running a summit and their advice for anyone who wants to do one, their biggest struggles in business and what comes next. Kira:   Betsy and Greta, welcome. Rob:   Hi guys. Betsy Muse:   Thank you. It's great being here. Thanks for having us. Kira:   We're excited to have both of you. It's a little party today with the four of us. We were both recently a part of your summit that you ran a couple months ago now, your first ever Women-Led Summit. So I know we're going to dig into that today and talk about summits which are quite popular right now in the COVID-19 landscape. Lots of summits are popping up. But why don't we start with your story. How did you two end up as business partners? Betsy Muse:   Well, it's a really a funny story. Greta and I met in Joanna Wiebe's 10x Freelance Copywriter and bonded over a shared love for AppSumo lifetime deals. Greta Cate:   Yeah. Betsy Muse:   Greta invited me for coffee. I thought, "Hey, great. She lives in North Carolina somewhere, and so we'll just meet halfway in between." Now, Greta lives in Corpus Christi, Texas. We weren't quite meeting in person. And then a week after our virtual coffee, we started an accountability group in 10x Freelance Copywriter. That group is still active today. Greta Cate:   Yeah. We had right off the bat realized that we had some shared values and were interested in making and having the same kind of impact. Back to AppSumo, they have this summit deal and we were talking about that and Betsy said, "Let's do a summit. Let's do it." So it was born. We weren't putting our heads together and trying to come up with a business that we could run together. It wasn't that kind of situation. It all happened very organically. We just jumped in. Rob:   I know we're mostly going to talk about the partnership that you two have and the summits and the things that you're doing together. But I actually want to take a step back and ask you both how did you get into copywriting in the first place? What was the thing that made you choose to be a copywriter so that you would have joined a mastermind and then met each other? Greta, maybe you could start and then Betsy. Greta Cate:   Sure, sure. I fell in love with writing as soon as I fell in love with stories when I was a child and I sort of never looked back. I come from ghostwriting previous to marketing. I was doing ghostwriting for speeches, presentations, and articles. I have a great love of psychology. I was raised by an educator and a psychologist, so how people learn and why and how they decide to do what they do is kind of a lifelong family conversation that I've extended into a career. So then I found direct response, which was super interesting to me. It didn't fit like it was tailor made for me. And then I found conversion copy and that fit for me and I've been doing that ever since. Betsy? How about you? Betsy Muse:   I have a degree in journalism and have always, like Greta, always wanted to be a writer and have enjoyed learning about and understanding what motivates people to act and do what they do. But I come from the world of political writing. That started before we were online, direct mail pieces, speeches, and then of course once we came online, websites. It was being online I found Joanna Wiebe and that's it, end of story. Kira:   What was the original vision for Women-Led Summits when the idea was coming together in your accountability group and you both had that moment where you're like, "This is it, this is what we want to create together?" Betsy Muse:   I'd love to say we had some masterful plan and process that generated the idea but, as Greta said before, it was very organic. It was a lot of little things that came together at just the right time. What it really boils down to is Greta and I share a desire to help women and to lift up the voices that often go unheard because we live in such a male-dominant society. I'm not pointing fingers, I'm just stating a reality. Kira:   And then once you have that vision that's, in some ways it's the easy part is seeing the vision. You're excited about it, but where most people drop off is actually executing it and bringing it to life. What did you do to get this idea launched into the world and to take those first few steps that are the most critical? What did you do and what did that look like at the time? Greta Cate:   Betsy pushed us off a cliff. Kira:   Yeah. That helps. Betsy Muse:   Childbirth is easier. Yeah, really just jumping, just doing it. It was so great to have someone to do it with and to bounce things off of. I would not have wanted to do this alone. We just had late-night conversations, right, Greta? Greta Cate:   So many, so many. Betsy Muse:   Many, many late-night conversations. We were somewhat flying blind because neither of us had ever worked on a summit before, let alone run one. But there was a little bit of information out there. The summit software that we were able to use offered some guidance too. So we combined that with our marketing no-how and did the best we could. Rob:   So let's dive into the details on that because I'm curious. Maybe I'd like to do a summit someday. What does it really take? How did you find participants? What does the software look like and do? What do we need to know before we jump into something like a summit on our own? Betsy Muse:   I think the important thing is to know what software is out there that can help take some of the tasks off your plate. A product like HeySummit, which is the one that we use, already has some of the landing page structures and the cart and other things, the speaker structure, so that you really only have to plug things in. That's going to be a whole lot easier than creating something on your own, pulling together a variety of third party products. Greta, any thoughts on the software and hardware? Greta Cate:   Yeah. Make it as easy on yourself as possible, particularly if it's your first go-around. You can always iterate. Know that things are going to happen. Not everything's going to go smoothly all the time. That's really just part of it. Rob:   And then how did you guys decide who you were going to ask? How did the invites go out? What percentage of people accepted your invite to participate? Betsy Muse:   Y'all already know the community that has built up around The Copywriter Club, 10x Freelance Copywriter and Copy School. We had amazing response. Greta Cate:   Yes, incredible. It bowled us over, the response that we got. It was absolutely incredible. We had so much support, encouragement, and participation. It was a real testament to the power of community. Betsy Muse:   It really was. Like Greta said, we were so supported by our friends in these communities, but also by people who had no idea who we were. Rob, got to give a shout out to you. Women-Led Summits is women-led but not women only. I don't usually speak for Greta, but I think I can say this for both of us that we were incredibly grateful for the fact that you supported us and spoke at the summit. Rob:   Well, of course. Yeah. For sure. Kira:   Let's break it down a little bit more into ... It sounds like you had this great community support. We were both excited to be a part of it. I think that was the general feel is we were all excited because many of us did know you and we wanted to be a part of it. Beyond that, it sounds like step one, figure out the software.

Health copywriter, Darren Hanser, is our guest for the 185th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. We recently met Darren at an event in Las Vegas, then again at The Copywriter Club In Real Life and after chatting, we knew we had to have him on the show. Darren has built a solid copy business and we got him to share how he did it. Here's what we talked about: •  why he may have been destined to become a copywriter even as a child •  the google search term that led him to a career as a copywriter •  how he made more than $98,000 in a weekend… to prove he could write •  how he learned to come up with lots of good ideas •  the importance of the mechanism and how Darren uses it in his copy •  his “double down” approach to finding more copy assignments •  his “leap frog” approach to investing in the next thing •  how he got a client to pay for his first copy coach •  what his business looks like today and where his income comes from •  his writing process from research to delivery •  depression, darkness and overwhelm and having to ask for help •  why he attends events and masterminds when his business is already doing well •  his take aways from The Copywriter Club In Real Life •  the three things you must do to succeed as a copywriter •  how Darren structures his fees—a lesson he learned in the insurance industry •  what it’s like to look like Seth Rogan •  what’s next for Darren in his business this year This is another good one. To hear it, click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript. And consider subscribing on your favorite podcast app so you don't ever miss an episode.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Ask by Ryan Levesque Dan Ferrari Justin Goff Stefan Georgi Dean Jackson's Naked Truth Letter Copy Chief Live Kim Krause Schwalm Kaitlyn Parker Darren's website darrenhanser.com 15minuteemails.com Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground   Full Transcript: Kira Hug:   This episode is brought to you by The Copywriter Accelerator, the 12-week program for copywriters who want to learn the business skills they need to succeed. Learn more at thecopywriteraccelerator.com. Rob Marsh:   What if you can hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes and their habits, then steal an idea to inspire your own work? That's what Kira and I do every week at The Copywriter Club Podcast. Kira Hug:   You're invited to join the club for Episode 185, as we chat with health supplement copywriter Darren Hanser about writing for wellness and info products, how he commands high fees for the work he does, what he's done to grow his business, and what it's like to be Seth Rogan's doppelganger. Welcome, Darren. Rob Marsh:   Hey, Darren. Darren Hanser:   Had to throw that in there, right? Kira Hug:   You gave that piece of information to me. Darren Hanser:   It's great to be here. Rob Marsh:   That's probably where we should start. Kira Hug:   Yeah, exactly. Darren, we met you in Las Vegas not too long ago. We were fast friends and then we saw you again a couple weeks later at TCC in real life before the world shut down. Today, I'm excited to just dig more into your story and what you've done to grow. Why don't we kick it off with how you became a copywriter? What's your story? Darren Hanser:   What's your story? It's funny, because that's the question I ask people and it gets them talking. But when people ask me that I stumble sometimes. Kira Hug:   It gets you talking, it's going to get you talking, yeah. Darren Hanser:   It's gets me talking. The earliest I remember I was always in a sales mentality, just in my own mind. Even as a young child, I was always trying to persuade my parents to do things and I would come up with these arguments, I would come up with these very logical and emotional appeals to them. I'd come into their bedroom at night and sit on the foot of their bed. And they knew that this was the start of a pitch. But they humored me and they allowed me to go through this and that. That grew over time where I enjoyed the art of not changing someone's mind, but helping them to the place where I know that the best result is going to be. I became enthralled with that idea. I got started in the marketing space on the side. I was in the financial services industry and there was a company that was ahead of the game. They were doing a lot of direct response marketing style work for our local insurance agents. They would help them come up with presentations, unique ideas to present to their customers, really help them differentiate themselves in their local market when everyone else is doing the same thing. I learned how to find really unique ideas in mundane, everyday products, right. I loved doing that and eventually, it got to the point where I didn't really know how to excel in that specific career. I was looking at ways to make some money on the side, start my own thing. I always had this entrepreneurial outlet that I wanted to have in my life and I found online ways to make money and that's ultimately how I found copywriting. I started looking for ways to make money on the internet. I wanted to do it in a way where I didn't have to talk to people all the time. I didn't have to be face to face in all these situations, getting customers, I wanted a way to make money on the side where I didn't have to work a lot. That was the appeal that got me into this universe. The one thing that I started learning was the way I was being taught how to make money online was to learn copywriting, it was to learn how to build an email list. It was to learn how to speak to my customer, it was to learn how to find an offer that resonates with the customers problems and find a way to communicate to them. That's what I was learning and it was just wrapped up in how to make money on the internet. But ultimately, it was how do you start a business that is driven by direct response copywriting. Once I started learning that, I got connected with people in that industry, and one of the offers that I was promoting as an affiliate saw what I was doing, and they said, "Why don't we give you a shot? You're actually pretty good and you're getting good results. Why don't you run a promotion for us over the weekend?" It was a live event. Let's say it was an event like yours, where there's a few hundred people in the room. At this time I think there was around 1,000 people in the room, and they were doing the live stream tickets and they said, "Take over our email list, do what you want to do. And then by the end of the weekend, we'll see what results we get. If you reach a certain level, we'll give you a bonus and if not, then there's no fee." It was a do or die situation. At the time I needed the money, I didn't really have the money to be at that event. I stayed up the whole weekend, over 72 hours, I ran their email list. I think we did $98,000 in sales over that 72 hour period. That showed me that I could get results when I was under pressure, but also showed someone else that I could get results for someone else, not just myself. That proved to me that there was something to this skill that I was learning, that was highly valuable to other people, not just like myself earning a few thousand dollars a month as an affiliate. That's how it started and then it just grew from there and then yeah, that's my start. Rob Marsh:   I like it. As you started talking, you mentioned that you were really good at finding ideas. I wonder if you talk a little bit more about that. Is there a practice or something that you were doing that makes you particularly good at coming up with good ideas? Darren Hanser:   Yeah, for example, I think the main thing that I left out is, when I was a kid I would watch infomercials, right. At night, I would come home when everyone was turning on, like Law and Order or whatever they were watching, I was turning on infomercials and trying to... That's what I would watch late at night. What I found in those infomercials, which I know now was very specific and on point and on purpose was that they were coming up with very cool names for very normal things, right? They had like OxiClean and things like that, where the oxygen was the mechanism that was being used, and I saw this happening. And then it was intriguing to me because I thought this is exactly the same as everything else. But this one has some special supportive ingredient. Then when I got in the financial service industry, the same thing happened. We were talking about let's say things called... We had this strategy was called the yield enhancement strategy. And all it was, was it would help people pass money to their children without paying taxes. It would help them earn a better yield than they would if they just put it in a bond market or some guaranteed investment. It was a very boring concept. But the way that it was packaged was that it was super unique, it was made just for them, and it had a very specific application in their life. Their answer to that was, "Of course, I'm going to use this strategy because it is made just for me." I started to see this. And then once I started actually doing marketing, the first time that I actually saw this was when I did a little bit of work with Ryan Levesque, back when he was launching his Ask book, the first time that he was launching his Ask book. I remember what he used to do in his emails and all of his copy, he would always try to isolate the real reason why someone was having a problem and I can hear it in my mind, and I can even see it because he would review my emails. And he would say, "This is how we need to structure things." Every time it was basically showing people what the situation is,

Copywriter Rachel Greiman is our guest for the 184th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. Rachel has worked almost exclusively with photographers since she launched her copywriting business a few years ago. We talked about how the niche found her, her unique process and more. Here's most of what we covered: •  how she became a photographer and copywriter •  her work as a photo-journalist and the work she did •  the struggle she had in early days in her business as a copywriter •  how she charged $200 for entire websites—and why it was so low •  how clients found her as she launched her copywriting business •  why she works with associate writers and how she trained them •  what her business looks like today compared to those early days •  how she works with and pays her team and what she expects from them •  why she pays her team well and how it has helped her business •  how she trains her team to make sure they can deliver •  why she only takes one client at a time and her delivery schedule •  how she thinks about her “competitors” •  the “guide” she created to develop a second income stream •  what she learned from the process of launching a product •  the first time she ever met another copywriter and what happened after that •  what she’s done to take her business to the next level •  dealing with the virus and running a business in a time of disruption •  the reason to be optimistic about the future right now To hear all the great advice Rachel has to share, click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript. Or subscribe at iTunes or Stitcher so you never miss an episode.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: The Copywriter Think Tank Rachel’s website Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground   Full Transcript: Rob:   This episode is brought to you by the copywriter accelerator, the 12-week program for copywriters who want to learn the business skills they need to succeed as copywriters, learn more at thecopywriteraccelerator.com Kira:   What if you get to hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts? Ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes and their habits. Then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work. That's what Rob and I do every week at The Copywriter Club podcast. Rob:   You're invited to join the club for episode 184 as we chat with copywriter for photographers Rachel Greiman about the power of choosing a niche building and managing team, creating a completely different offer for her audience and what she's done to take the business to a new level this year. Kira:   Rachel, welcome. Rachel:   Hi. Thanks for having me. Thanks for dealing with the last 40 minutes of tech problems with us. I'm sure that 90% of it was my fault. So... Rob:   Everyone is working from home these days and so the internet does not want to cooperate. Kira:   The internet is full. That is true. Rachel:   It is full. Kira:   So Rachel, we have been working with you and been able to get to know you through the Think Tank over the last 12 months. And we're excited to share a bit more about your story and some of the wins and even some of the struggles. But why don't we start with your story. How did you end up as a copywriter? Rachel:   That is a really great question and probably one I should have mentally prepared for knowing this, coming here. I just feel like it's such a winding road and it always gets so long. I will try to condense it though. Kira:   Okay. Rachel:   So I studied photojournalism in college, so writing and photography always went hand in hand for me. Like I was always doing both. And then after college I worked in the nonprofit field for a long time, almost a decade actually. And I would always get hired for one skillset, either writing or photography. And then I always ended up doing both together because at nonprofits everybody wears a ton of hats. So it quickly became apparent to me that both skill sets were married together kind of indefinitely in my life and I didn't mind it. I really loved doing both. And then my last full time job, I was doing both together. I was the writer and photographer at a rescue mission in Denver, Colorado. And then I decided I wanted to pursue my own business and I decided I wanted to be a full time family photographer. So I was just kind of putting writing off to the side for a while. And then I joined all the Facebook groups that one joins when they decided to become a photographer and everybody kept asking generic questions about writing. How do I write my about page? How do I write my homepage? How do I write this email to a client? And it was a very natural way for me to be helpful in these new communities. So I could ask my questions about running a photography business and not feel like I was merging. And so I started getting paid to help people write because it was a skill I had already learned in the nonprofit field. And then gradually it was like, "Oh, I guess I'm running a copywriting and photography business again." Rob:   So can we jump all the way back and talk about photojournalism for a minute- Rachel:   Sure. Rob:   ... because this is something I've never done. And I'm curious what were the assignments like and how much of it was photos versus writing about the things that you were taking pictures of? What were you doing? Rachel:   It depends on the semester honestly, because some classes were purely journalism and some classes were purely photography and there were only a couple that married them both. So it was basically like double majoring kind of alongside one another. But the photo journalism classes, I laugh so hard now. My husband and I, we moved back to Philadelphia last year after being in Denver for eight years. And Philly is actually where I went to college and studied photojournalism. So it's been funny to be back in the city where I learned all of this. And the assignments we were given, would never fly now. They were so dangerous. It was like go stand in the middle of downtown and ask 12 strangers if you can photograph them and ask these seven questions and I want you to come up with this story about them. And it's like I was 19 years old with a very expensive camera around my neck alone on the streets of Philadelphia talking to homeless people because again, I've worked in the nonprofit field for a long time and I worked with homeless people in college, so I was interviewing random homeless men on the streets of Philly when I was 19 and I'm grateful for the experience, but it was a little extreme and probably would not be what is assigned now. Kira:   So Rachel, how did you juggle both businesses? So the photography business, which you originally started in, and then the copywriting business that quickly grew out of the communities that you were in. What did that look like in those early days? Rachel:   In the early days, I just did both of them poorly. If I'm being completely honest, I really had a hard time focusing because my heart was so into photography. I think because I've publicly set out to run a photography business, so I was so stubborn about making sure that, that's what was successful and it just wasn't. Copywriting came up really organically into this business and I refused to advertise for it. I refused to make it a part of my brand. It was just like if you heard about me and you inquired with me, I might work with you. And then even with that terrible business plan, I started making more money copywriting, then doing photos. And so it just became very apparent to me that I needed to let go of the focus on photography a little bit more so I could walk more confidently into copywriting and make more money. Rob:   Let's talk about how some of those first copywriting jobs came your way. I know you are in all of the groups and you were doing things in there, what were the things that you're doing and how did people start reaching out to you for work? How did you price those original projects and what were you doing? Rachel:   Oh my gosh, it's laughable. A couple hundred dollars maybe I was charging for entire websites in the beginning because I didn't... and I feel like I've heard this on your podcast so many times you grow up hearing writers don't make any money and I think that kind of infiltrates your first crack at pricing when you start charging for writing. So it was like, "Oh well everybody can sit down and write an email. I might just be able to do it a little bit better so I'm not going to charge that much." And the same thing was true for websites. So people would post in these groups. I would publicly respond in a comment and then they would message me privately back before Facebook had another folder where they all went and died and they would just say, "Hey, that comment was really helpful. Can I pay you to help me do this?" And I was like, "Oh yeah, I guess." And then photographers, they're all in the same groups. They're all learning the same things. They're really, really good at being part of online communities. So my name just started to get around a little bit in that circle. And I was already in a lot of the groups they were in. So it was very easy to find me and contact me. And the one thing that I did with photography was I was good about blogging, so people would go to my blog, read that I knew what I was doing when it came to writing, and then people would want help with that. So yeah, a couple hundred dollars for a website maybe. And then that morphed into like, "Oh, I need to formalize this process and this needs to be an offering that I have to give to people." Kira:   So Rachel, when did you actually start the copywriting side of your business? I just kind of want to... is it three years ago? Five years ago? Rachel:   I have to think here.

SEO Consultant (and reformed web designer) Meg Casebolt is our guest for the 183rd episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. Since this is an area that we don't have real deep knowledge in, we asked Meg all about what copywriters need to know about SEO and what they should be trying to rank for. And we spent a lot of time talking about the 3-week challenge she put together last year and how it helped grow her list. Here's a pretty good list of what we covered: •  how she went from graphic design to SEO—it’s about grabbing opportunity •  what she did to learn SEO in the first place •  what she did to work through the pivot from design to SEO •  Meg’s advice for anyone working through their own pivot (or choosing a niche) •  how she ramped up her client acquisition after the first few referrals •  the best thing she’s done to grow her authority since her pivot •  the surprising thing that scared Meg as she was running her challenge •  how she ran her challenge and how she engaged her affiliates •  why her challenge took off (and why people joined in the middle) •  how she structured her challenge from start to finish •  the results that participants got as they went through the program •  how Meg kept people engaged in the Challenge from start to finish •  why adding a deadline helped people finish their Challenge assignments •  why she no longer does PPC as part of her services •  what a copywriter needs to know about SEO and getting online traffic •  why you shouldn’t try to rank for a term like “copywriter” •  the importance of putting great content on your own website •  how she has dealt with mindset issues around working with clients •  the end-product she provides clients after a consulting session •  why she decided to rebrand her services as she grew her team •  what her team looks like today and where Meg spends her time We covered a lot of ground in this one. To hear it, click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript. Or subscribe on iTunes or Stitcher so you don't miss an episode.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: The Copywriter Accelerator Tanya Geisler SEOctober MemberVault Meg’s Website Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground   Full Transcript: Kira:  This episode is brought to you by The Copywriter Accelerator, the 12-week program for copywriters who want to learn the business skills they need to succeed. Learn more at thecopywriteraccelerator.com. Rob:   What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That's what Kira and I do every week at The Copywriter Club Podcast. Kira:  You're invited to join the club for Episode 183 as we chat with SEO strategist, Meg Casebolt about planning and writing search friendly content, why SEO needs to be a part of your marketing mix, what it takes to run a month-long challenge as well as the results she got and why has she rebranded and refocused her business solely on SEO. Welcome Meg. Rob:   Hey, Meg. Meg:  Hey, it's so nice to be here with you guys. Kira:  Yeah, it's great to have you here. I've been able to get to know you over the last nine months or so through Tanya Geisler and I'm excited to just dig into your business more and talk about a lot of the changes that you've made and challenges that you've taken on, so let's kick it off with your story. How did you get into SEO? Meg:  Okay, so my story is, I think a pretty common one, which is that I had been working in communications for many years. I worked in nonprofits. I worked at an architecture firm for a couple of years doing all of their marketing. I got married, I got pregnant, and I looked at the cost of childcare and I don't know if I can swear on this podcast, but I swore. So I kind of had to make this decision about how do I want to spend my time, how do I want to make money and I'd been sort of dabbling in freelance graphic design. Actually, when I was working in the nonprofits, I wrote grants to take classes to teach myself design for the nonprofits because nonprofit folks are always very resourceful like that. And so I've been freelancing a little bit on the side, just kind of playing around with my personal copy of Adobe Illustrator, and I went, ‘I wonder if I can make this work?’ And then I reconnected with some old friends. My first corporate client was literally my first grade best friend. My first subcontracting client was my next door neighbor from my childhood. And they both were huge experiences and really great companies to work for and so it kind of just took off on its own once I started to pursue this route of being a designer. And it was easy then for me to leave my job and stay home with my son part-time and sent him to daycare part-time, and that was kind of just how the business began. It happened a little bit naturally and kind of stumbling around which I think happens to a lot of us. And then in terms of moving into SEO, I went from being a graphic designer, I started getting hired for more web projects, so I taught myself WordPress design, and worked my way through those clients. And I felt like I was working with clients on their brand and on their logos and on their websites and on their social presence. And I would launch these beautiful sites for my clients, and they would say, ‘Well, that's great, Meg,’ but nobody's finding me for this. And I was like, ‘Well, that wasn't part of the scope of work.’ We didn't talk about search, we talked about brand and positioning and voice and copy and all of the things that go into the website, but I had no idea how SEO played into it. But I didn't want my clients to be like disappointed with the money that they invested in me, so I started playing with SEO on the side essentially, and figuring it out on my own site and trying out new things. And I reached out to a number of designers that I just was friends with and I said, ‘Guys, how do you balance this building the website and doing the design and knowing the branding, and then also doing all the technical stuff that you need to do and the keyword research and the mobile friendliness and all the SEO stuff.’ And they were like, ‘Oh, God. It's the worst. Wait a minute, do you want to do the SEO stuff, Meg? I would hire you to do it for me.’ And that's how I found my niche. It wasn't an exhaustive list of what are all the different things you can do in design, it wasn't let me figure out the niche and then market myself into it. Every evolution that I have found in my business has been accidentally stumbling into a conversation with somebody or an opening, or some sort of opportunity, and then seeing the opportunity grabbing it and running with it. Rob:   That is an awesome story, so what did you do then to learn SEO? Because obviously, you're very resourceful as you taught yourself all of these skills and if somebody else were thinking, ‘Hey, I want to learn that.’ Where did you go? What resources did you use? How did you actually add that skill to your skill stack, so to speak? Meg:  Oh, man, I wish I had like one resource where I could say go here and take this course. Well, now, I can because I teach it, but no, it wasn't really a linear progress kind of thing. This was just me going to Google or going to YouTube every time I had a question and figuring it out and trying it out and seeing what works. So, absolutely not the fastest or most efficient way to learn something, but sometimes that's the best way to learn it, it's just to put it into practice and give it a shot. Kira:  So Meg, I want to hear more about the pivot that you made and kind of leaving design and then focusing on SEO, at least that's the way it sounds. How did you work through that pivot? Did you eventually leave design? Well, I know you did, but how soon did you leave design completely to focus on SEO? How long does that take and what's realistic there? Meg:  Yeah, I think the pivots don't necessarily have to be 90-degree or 180-degree turns. I think that they could be 10 degrees, 10 degrees, 10 degrees, 10 degrees. And so I started rewriting the copy of my website to be web design and SEO, and then once I put that onto the website, I started getting more SEO inquiries, and just leaning more heavily onto those leads. And I remember the day that I took the words web design off my website, I was sweating because I knew that I wanted to always have that as a backup plan. And that's not to say that now I couldn't go design a website, I'm sure I still could, but it's not as lucrative or as systematized or as you know, fun for me as doing more of the nuanced work, more of that niche component. Kira:  Yeah, can you talk more about this, too, because you felt that anxiety around taking web design off your website, I feel like a lot of the copywriters we talked to want to niche down and want to kind of make that 10-degree pivot, but they are feeling that anxiety over like, ‘If I make a change, this is it for me.’ And so even if they know that's not rational, I feel like we still deal with that. So what advice would you give to them if they are maybe shifting a bit to maybe taking something off their website for the first time and freaking out, what advice would you give them? Meg:  Yeah, I think that the advice that I would give them and also the advice that I give to people who are working on their SEO, regardless of what you are thinking about, is maybe you don't have to take everything off your website overnight. You can still keep those kind of generic keywords on your homepage or on your about page, you can still kind of cast a broad net there,

SaaS Copywriter Rachael Pilcher is our guest for the 182nd episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. We've had a front row seat over the past year as Rachael has made dramatic changes to her business and stepped up as an expert in the SaaS space. So we wanted to ask her about: •  how she went from travel blogging to SaaS copywriting •  what she did to find her first clients—it started with job boards •  what she learned running a “little shop” and why she sold it •  why she niched into SaaS and the clients she works with today •  the process she went through to choose her niche •  what she did to transition from blogger to fully booked copywriter •  her processes from start to finish on a project •  what she looks for in clients she takes (and those she rejects) •  her new website and the process she went through to get where she is •  Rachael’s SNACKS framework and how she uses it •  the resources she’s used to improve her skills and grow her business •  value-based pricing and price anchoring •  the biggest mistake she made in her business •  why she hangs out where other copywriters DON’T hang out •  how she works and avoids the temptation of site seeing while traveling •  what Rachael is doing in 2020 This is a good one. To hear it, click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript. Or subscribe with your favorite podcast app (don't forget to leave a review).   The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Josh Garofalo Joel Klettke Joanna Wiebe Rachael's website Copywriter Think Tank Nigel Stevens Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground   Full Transcript: Rob:   This episode is brought to you by The Copywriter Accelerator, the 12-week program for copywriters who want to learn the business skills they need to succeed. Learn more at thecopywriteraccelerator.com Kira:  What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That's what Rob and I do every week at The Copywriter Club Podcast. Rob:   You're invited to join the club for episode 182 as we chat with SaaS copywriter Rachael Pilcher about working with software clients, the investments she's made in her business that have paid off, what she learned from her brick and mortar businesses, and what it's like to work and travel for months at a time. Kira:  Welcome, Rachael. Rob:   Hey, Rachael. Rachael:      Nice to be here. Thank you for having me on. Kira:  Great to have you here. It's great to have you in a time zone near me, selfishly. I just feel like you're near me finally because you're traveling all over the place, which I know we'll talk about. But yeah, we've just really enjoyed getting to know you through the Think Tank over the last year and I just feel like you're one of those people that is always, you're just cool. You're just always cool. When we're not around you at the Think Tank, we're all talking about just how you live a very cool life and you've done very well in your business and built this really interesting brand that stands out. I mean, you've done it in a short period of time. Kira:  We're going to talk about the cool factor today, but let's kick it off with your story. How did you end up as a copywriter? Rachael:      Well, it was kind of accidentally, actually. I had sold my business and I'd sold my classic car as well, so I had quite a bit of money saved up and I just wanted to travel because I hadn't really done that. So travel, travel, travel, and then obviously started running out of money. So it's like, what can I do to keep traveling and also have some money coming in? I think I just Googled and Googled and I came across... It was actually Nomadic Matt's traveling blog course, embarrassingly enough. And so I took that and that was actually really good, and it tells you how to set up a WordPress website, how to find clients and things like that. It didn't end up being travel writing, but the more I got into that scene and found that I could actually get paid for writing, I sort of stumbled across the Facebook group and you guys, and it went from there. Yeah. Rob:   So how did you find your first clients, Rachael, as you set up your website and got going? What did you do to find clients as you were kicking off? Rachael:      I set up a really, really crappy website on WordPress and then I think I went through... ProBlogger job board was the first job I got and it was an $80 US post. Can't remember what it was about. Something to do with kids and business or something. It was a bit random but they gave me the job, and then I got another one off the same board which was just marketing stuff. It kind of snowballed from there quite quickly. Kira:  So when did you get into copy? Just time wise. You were traveling, you ran out of money and you're like, ‘Cool, copywriting, I'm going to do it.’ What year was that roughly? Rachael:      That was kind of the end of 2016, 2017. I'm not sure. But I wasn't taking it seriously. It was just a bit coming in here and there. I wasn't sure it was anything I could make a proper living out of at that time. Kira:  Okay. All right, great. I'd love to hear about pre copywriting, running your brick and mortar businesses. Can you tell us more about like, what did those businesses look like? What did you learn? What lessons did you learn from that time running that business? Rachael:      Okay, so this is my little shop. I always wanted a shop or something as a kid. Just play shop and have your own little store that you open in the morning next to a cafe so you can just pop next door and have coffee. It was all this nice little dream and I kind of achieved that, but it didn't look like that. It was actually really stressful. Juggling finances, they're really, really lean days. That was quite difficult to get through and just to make a living on that and pay all the shop overheads and everything. I sold mostly summer clothing because it was a 1950s themed store and apparently in the 1950s there was no winter back then. It was all summer dresses and parasols and blouses. So yeah, there were definitely difficult times there, but it taught me a lot about how to sell to different types of people. Selling nicely and authentically, not being pushy about things, even when money was tight. That told me how to market effectively as well because Facebook wasn't really a thing when I started. So I was on the street pasting up flyers and using emails to people that I knew and just advertising in street magazines, things like that. Just really trying to get creative with how I marketed and how I got people to come to the shop, which was a bit out of the city as well. Rob:   Was there anything that happened that was a catalyst for deciding to move on and to sell the shop, or was it just that you wanted to travel? Rachael:      I'd been doing it for about 10 years. By the time I decided to sell it, I had the shop... Well, I had two shops actually. That was about four years between both shops and I was just feeling burnt out. I didn't want to see any more polka dots or cherry prints again. I was going crazy. So yeah, it was just time to go, and one of my lovely customers really wanted to buy it so it was the perfect time to leave it. Kira:  Okay. So then from end of 2016 roughly, starting the copywriting career, where are you today? Can you just give us an idea of what your business looks like today, who you work with, what type of projects you work on? Rachael:      Okay. So I'm fully committed to the SaaS industry at the moment. I think that was a really good move for me to just niche down into that. It's quite scary feeling just committing to one industry, but it's a really wide industry and I think there's room to sub-niche further because SaaS covers absolutely everything you can think of now. There's just so many products and I think there's a good fit for anyone, no matter what you're doing. There'll be something that you can find that you like within that SaaS model. So yeah, I'm just doing that and a bit of B2B work and some agency work and it's all going really well. I used to work a lot with the startups, but I'm finding myself going for more established funded companies now, which I'm liking a bit better. Rob:   So as I listened to you answer that question saying everything's going really well now, but it seems like starting out with a couple of posts from ProBlogger or job boards to where you are now, there's been quite a transition. Will you talk a little bit about that? Rachael:      Yeah, it's been really patchy and I think a lot of that was hating my website and I didn't really want to show any clients that because I was really embarrassed about it. And it was kind of patch and it didn't really tell them who I was or exactly what I did or what my process was. So I always had trouble communicating that to clients I wanted to work with. So once I had that more solidified in my own mind, I put that down in my website and then communicated to them a bit easier. Otherwise I just found myself floundering on sales calls, losing projects, and just scraping for work and it was a bit difficult. Kira:  So when you look at that transition stage from just getting started to where you are today, what were some of the pivotal moves during that time? It definitely sounds like launching your new website and brand, which we'll talk about, but what else did you do? Niching was another one you mentioned. What else did you do during that time that really helped you move forward? Rachael:      I think I really just started to ethically follow people that were ahead of me in the SaaS industry so I could see how they were working and what their processes were,

In the 181st episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, Kira and Rob talk about what happened at TCCIRL—the best event we've held yet. Several speakers stepped up at the last minute, others brought their A-game and shared ideas and stories that have changed the businesses of the 130+ copywriters who were there. We talk about: •  the earthquake, the virus and the economic response to it •  why we can’t afford to operate from a place of fear no matter what is going on •  why TCCIRL felt “better” this year than in the past •  the speakers who had less than 48 hours to get stage ready •  a few of the speakers who really stood out to us •  what Jasmine Star taught us about scaling a business •  the hero’s journey and what marketers miss when they talk about it •  some of the advice that came out of the panel discussions •  how to think about branding from the standpoint of authenticity •  the power of constraints to make us more creative •  why its important to think about your role as a human asset, not just a copywriter •  what you should do differently during a recession •  why the Copywriter Think Tank is about and the transformation members see If you can't get enough of what happened at TCCIRL or you want more information about The Copywriter Think Tank, click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: The Copywriter Think Tank TCCIRL Mike Kim Dana Malstaff Marcella Allison Ray Edwards Jasmine Star Jamie Jensen Tanya Geisler Linda Perry Lindsay Hotmire Justin Blackman Matt Hall Gin Walker Bond Halbert Stefan Georgi Sam Woods Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground   Full Transcript: Rob:   So, we do not have an intro for this episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast because it's just me and Kira chatting about what went down over the last week or so at The Copywriter Club In Real Life. And so yeah, we just wanted to jump in and share some of our biggest takeaways, what happened and express our gratitude for some things that happened. And reflect a little bit on the magic that we got to experience last week. Kira:  Well it's not just me and you, it's me and you and the earthquake. Rob:   So, we did have an earthquake here this morning, so hopefully- Kira:  No biggy. Rob:   The power will stay on long enough to make sure that everything here is good. But yeah, it's been kind of a crazy morning Kira while it's been not just the morning, right? With the virus, with everything that's going on it's a crazy, a lot of things. Kira:  And Rob is kind of downplaying the earthquake like, ‘Oh, it's just a little earthquake.’ It was a big one and with several follow-up tremors. I don't speak earthquake language because I live on the East Coast, we don't have earthquakes here typically. But can you just share, I mean these are big earthquakes that you experienced today. Rob:   Yeah, the first big one that we felt this morning was like a 5.7 on the Richter scale, which is- Kira:  It's a big deal. Rob:   It's big enough to knock down walls and there's definitely been a little bit of damage. They closed the airport because of some water main breakage, they had to evacuate I think the tower. I'm not sure if there was any damage there, but I'm far enough away from the epicenter that I've walked around my house, there's no damage to our house and there are no fatalities reported, no injuries. So while it could have certainly been worse and maybe someday a worse earthquake will happen here. We survived this one. But it is freaky when the ground starts moving, when everything in your house starts to shake and it's happened seven or eight times this morning of the ones that we could feel. And yeah. So, who knows? Like if you hear a rumble in the background while we're chatting here, it could be another aftershock going on and on and I'll just dive under my desk. Kira:  That'd be cool footage to have. I experienced my first mini earthquake this past summer in Bali in the middle of the night and it was a baby earthquake. It was probably nothing even compared to what you experienced today. But it was my first really my first one. And it was terrifying even though it was just a little shake, shake and we did exactly what you're not supposed to do because we haven't experienced it before. We ran out of the building, which you're not supposed to do because debris could fall. So you probably know the etiquette of how you're supposed to react but it was a terrifying experience. And I know we also wrote recently about earthquakes in one of our promo emails for the event and we talked about the big earthquake coming and potentially harming your city. So anyway hoping that you stay safe. And I'm just wondering Rob how are you staying so like cool and calm and collected now that we've kind of gone through the event ordeal of the stress around the event and just squeezing that in before all events were canceled. Then coming back home, dealing with the Coronavirus and everything being shut down and now the earthquake, like how are you just staying focused because it might be helpful to other people who are struggling. Rob:   Yeah. Well I wish I had a really good answer for that. I mean, first of all you said, you're not supposed to run out of the building. It's funny because we know that and yet when your house starts shaking, like the last thing you want to do is stay in the house because you don't want the roof to fall on you. You're supposed to get underneath your desk or underneath the table or whatever. But my first reaction was like, grab the girl's head for the front door. Kira:  Yeah. Get me out of here. Rob:   Yeah, exactly. So at that fight or flight is a really powerful response and I think a lot of people are feeling that with everything that's going on in the world, not just like the immediate physical threat of something like an earthquake, but the fight or flight response to the virus to the things that are happening to the economy in response to the virus. It's very likely going to become a recession here in the States and it already, like the indicators show that, that's starting to happen. So we all want to flight from that. Like we want to get away from it. And so we try to hide and bury ourselves maybe we're being quiet and that's exactly the wrong response. Like, we still need to be showing up. We still need to be there because our clients need leadership, our clients needs stability, and if we can be there to help and support them that's part of our role as service providers, as copywriters, as ideal people to help them through it and to give them ideas for it. So yeah, how have I been handling it all? Well, I took a couple of hours to kind of stop shaking or have my heart rate come down from the earthquake this morning. But the reality is that we can only move forward, panic is the wrong response. And we posted something in the Facebook group about that yesterday and hopefully people will respond to that with leadership, with compassion for everyone around them but still showing up and doing everything that we can to support our clients, to support the people around us. We're certainly going to be trying to do that more in The Copywriter Underground in the big Copywriter Club group itself with members of our Think Tank. To the extent that we can that's where our efforts are going to be going. Kira:  I think it's a really good practice and not operating from a place of fear. And I think even going into our event pre-event when the Coronavirus was just starting to spread and we were like, what are we going to do? Our event’s coming up. Are we going to lose people? We're going to lose speakers. I feel like I had to keep kind of going back to that mindset and telling myself I will not operate from a place of fear with this event. We will move forward; we will figure it out and problem solve. And now I feel like that was good practice just coming back to the real life and everything we're dealing with now with schools shutting down and everything really shutting down. So, but I do feel like it's a good thing to not operate from a place of fear in your business and in your life, but also to forgive yourself when you do, because we're human. And that's kind of where we go back to. Just like you said, running out of the building, even if you're not supposed to. It doesn't make sense that we're only human and that's programmed into us. So I think at this point, like I'm trying to be very gentle with myself this week, especially. Because I find myself being really hard on myself. I'm like, ‘Why aren't you getting more done? Why aren't you being more fun with your kids? Why aren't you...’ A lot of pressure and so I think it's easy just to ... Well, it's not easy, but we should just give ourselves a little bit more grace during this period. Rob:   Yeah. And I think leading out in this way people appreciate it. So we could have canceled TCC IRL this year we could have postponed it. Neither one of those would have been our preferred way to move forward obviously, but I was amazed at how many people came in spite of all of the craziness going on around us. And so many people who came said that they really needed this, that with all of the things going on with the fear, with everything that we're reading in the news, that it was good to get together with a group of people who could share how they're feeling about that, but also to put it behind them just a little bit and to explore new ideas for their business and to move forward. So if the conference had been scheduled for a week later, I don't think there's any way that it would have happened. Rob:   There's no way that we would have had everybody show up.