TCC Podcast #187: What Copywriters Need To Know About Design with Melissa Burkheimer

Conversion designer and sales page specialist Melissa Burkheimer is the guest for the 187th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. We talked a bit about why copywriters and designers don't always see eye-to-eye and what we all can do about it. We also asked Melissa about why she niched to conversion design and sales pages and her design process. Here's what we covered: •  how Melissa became a “conversion designer” and started her own business •  what she learned from investing in several programs and courses •  how she connected with Amy Porterfield through a friend of a friend the “relationship” process she followed to keep adding clients to her roster •  her thoughts about “pay to play” and what we think about it too •  what she would do to get traction if she had to start over today •  why she niched to working only on sales pages and the impact on her biz •  how she prices her sales pages and the packages she offers •  what it takes for copywriters to work closely with a designer •  the difference between a regular designer and a conversion designer •  her design process and how she works on a project •  her thoughts on wireframes provided by copywriters •  what to do when the designer wants to cut your copy •  the things that copywriters do that bug designers •  what Melissa is working on today and the future of conversion design It's another great discussion that will give you plenty to think about. Ready to hear what Melissa has to say? Click the play button below. Or scroll down for a full transcript. Or subscribe on your favorite podcast app so you never miss an episode.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Rick Mulready B-School Amy Porterfield Erica Lyremark Elizabeth Dialto Sage Polaris Gin Walker Melissa’s podcast Melissa’s website The Conversion Design School Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground   Full Transcript: Kira Hug:   This episode is brought to you by The Copywriter Underground, the place to be if you want to master marketing mindset and copywriting in your business and hit 10K a month in your business without losing your mind. Learn more at thecopywriterunderground.com. Rob Marsh:   What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes and their habits then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That's what Kira and I do every week at The Copywriter Club Podcast. Kira Hug:   You're invited to join the club for episode 187 as we chat with conversion designer Melissa Burkheimer about what copywriters need to know about the design process, how good design makes your copy way more effective, why she only works with seven clients a year and why she created the Conversion Design School. Welcome Melissa. Rob Marsh:   Hey Melissa. Melissa Burkheimer:   Hi, Kira and Rob, thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to be here. Kira Hug:   We're excited to have you here. You and I met, I don't know, three or four years ago, maybe working on a sales page project for Rick Mulready, and that's when we first met. And it was such a positive experience to work with you on the design side because I know, we'll talk about this today, but oftentimes it feels like copywriters are battling designers and designers are battling copywriters on projects. But when we worked together, it was just really collaborative and we became friends too, which it was a great surprise too. So a lot of what we're going to talk about today is how we can work together more effectively. But before we dig into that, why don't we just start with you and your story? How did you end up as a designer? Melissa Burkheimer:   So it's a funny story. So I actually had a business, I was a professional paid singer as a kid when I was eight and I quit when I was 11. And by the time I quit, my hourly rate was more than I charged when I first started my design business. But when I was in high school, I took photo journalism and I was the photo editor of the school newspaper. And so I ended up going to college right down the street from my high school planning to major in journalism. And then I found out they had a major called graphic drone journalism. So I switched really quickly and that meant I took half of my classes in the design department and half in the communication department. And so when I started college, I also got surprisingly pregnant with my now high school senior. So I was juggling a job and a baby and a relationship and a mortgage while studying. But when I graduated I got married and I had my second son. So I ended up just staying at the same job I had while I was in college because they offered part time and flexible hours before that was really a thing. And then in 2011 I got the itch to be creative. So I started networking in in-person events and got clients based on the fact that I wanted to get paid to be creative while staying home with my kids. And nine months after starting I quit my job. So that was the start. And after that I was working with local clients primarily when they needed me on an hourly basis just because I didn't really know another way. I don't feel like there were a lot of communities or trainings out there on how to start a freelance business, how to know what to charge, how to deal with crazy clients, contracts and stuff like that. So in 2013 and even 2012 I started investing in programs like B school and I took some programs with Amy Porterfield and Erika Lyremark and Elizabeth DiAlto. And I just wanted to learn how to transition my business from serving local clients to working with people online because I was just really fascinated with how these influencers were presenting themselves online. And so in 2013 which I think we'll talk about the story here in a second, I got my first sales page gig and then was referred to multiple people that I was buying courses from. They ended up being my clients and I switched primarily into doing sales pages. That's been my main offer since about 2013 and then I was a launch manager for another person for a while. And so really that's the main thing I've been doing for the last nine years since I started. Rob Marsh:   It sounds like a lot of your initial clients came from people that you were buying their programs for or from referrals. Is that how you got all of those initial clients or were there other things that you were doing? Melissa Burkheimer:   That wasn't actually how I got those clients, but investing in those programs kind of showed me what was possible. And I actually got my first sales page gig in late 2013 when a Facebook friend that I had connected with because I posted on Facebook that Amy Porterfield had liked my Facebook page, I thought that I was really cool. And so I posted that picture and there was a guy who liked that picture that I sent a Facebook friend request to not really thinking anything of it. And then he did a post on Facebook one day like the ones that we all see where it's like I'm looking for a graphic designer. And so I raised my hand, we connected, there were two available gigs, I didn't get one of them, but that gig was a sales page for Amy Porterfield. So I didn't know what the project was. I just knew that he needed a graphic designer and I raised my hand. So from there I just went on to work with a lot of other people that were in her space. And this was back again in 2013, 2014 so there weren't a lot of big names out there. I feel like the market's much different now. And so it kind of just started from there. Rob Marsh:   So I want to ask about this a little more deeply because we work with a lot of copywriters who create an ideal client list. And oftentimes ideal clients are these big name personalities in the internet space or in the coaching space. Or they may even be big companies in tech or SaaS or whatever the niche is that people are working in. And so aside from that first connection, did you have to pitch a lot of these big names? What were the other things you were doing to connect? Melissa Burkheimer:   So there was no pitching? One thing that happened was when I bought B school, that May 2013, so this was six months before I got the first sales page gig. I went to an in person mastermind and James Wedmore was there. And I didn't go there with the intention of getting him as a client at all, I wanted to learn YouTube ranking strategies from him. So he was there and then six months later, so this was January 2014 so maybe eight months later. I was on a hot seat call for a group coaching program that he had. It was a monthly membership and I was really destined to get the hot seat because I had a question and my question was, so I'm working with these local clients, they're nice, they pay me on time, the work is fine, I'm making enough to sustain our house. My husband works full time and he's always had a great job, but now I'm doing this sales page thing, which I didn't even know was a service. What should I do? And so his response was, I would love to hire you. So of course he vouched for me with the person that I had connected with because it wasn't Amy that I was working directly with, it was someone who was behind the scenes of her business at the time. And then I worked with James, did a couple of sales pages for him, did a lot of other things for him and he referred me to pretty much everyone at that time who was in his rolodex. Rob Marsh:   So just to draw the lines really clearly for myself. Again, it kind of sounds to me like the first connections happened when you started buying people's programs and then it just kind of grew because you got in the room where these people were that you wanted to be hanging out with. Is that right? Melissa Burkheimer:   Yeah.