The Copywriter Club Podcast

Copywriter and persuasion expert Adil Amarsi is the guest for the 196th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. Adil is working on a book on Persuasion and recently changed the title he prefers from Copywriter to Creative Director because he does so much more than copy. We covered quite a bit of ground during our discussion, including: •  how writing daily stories as a kid led to a gig as a copywriter (before he knew what copywriting was) •  his process for attracting his first clients •  what he did to learn copywriting and who he learned it from •  the “first week’s earnings” deal that netted him six figures •  what not to do when you get a windfall •  going from £300 to $30,000 + 4%—the secret of Adil’s success •  mental health issues and the impact on his business •  how much time he spends writing versus ideation •  breaking down what a $30K project looks like •  the clause that Adil adds to his contract that you’ll definitely want to borrow •  walking the line between manipulation and persuasion •  one of the words you should never use in your copy •  what it means to be a creative director and why he doesn’t call himself a copywriter •  what it takes to create a great offer •  the practical joke he played on one of his friends You won’t want to miss this one. Download it to your favorite podcast app or simple scroll down and press the play button. You’ll also find a full transcript and links below.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: John Carlton Gary Halbert PsychoCybernetics Jay Abraham The Irresistible Offer Adil's website Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground   Full Transcript: Rob:   This episode is brought to you by The Copywriter Underground, the place to connect with hundreds of smart copywriters who share ideas and strategies to help you master marketing, mindset and copywriting in your business. Learn more at thecopywriterunderground.com. Kira:   What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes and their habits, then steal an idea or two inspire your own work? That's what Rob and I do every week at The Copywriter Club podcast. Rob:   You're invited to join the club for episode 196 as we chat with copywriter, podcaster and alchemists of persuasion, Adil Amarsi, about telling better stories, what it takes to create a great offer, how to be more persuasive, and his approach to consulting with his clients on their marketing needs. Kira:   Welcome, Adil. Adil:   Hi. Thanks for having me, guys. Kira:   Yeah, and just shout out before we jump into Brennan Hopkins, who introduced us, so thank you, Brennan for making the introduction. And let's just kick this off with your story. How did you end up as a copywriter, consultant, podcaster, artists and we can go on and on, and on? Adil:   Yeah. So first of all, thank you, Brennan, because he did make this happen. So my story's kind of I used to think it was interesting until I actually sat down and wrote it out with a friend. So I moved from Africa, like East Africa to the UK when I was four years old. About a year into moving to the UK, in the mid-90s, my dad ended up having a herniated disk that affected his walking, so he was paralyzed from the waist down for about two years. And it's important to know that I have an older sister and the 90s were basically known as Nickelodeon versus Cartoon Network. You can pretty much guess which side I sided with and which side she went with. I was Cartoon Network, she was Nickelodeon. I found that the best way I could watch cartoons was to sit down and watch whatever my dad was watching at the time. In the UK my dad really loved watching four shows, in particular. Two quite important. The other two, somewhat. So the first one was the news. My dad loved watching the news.

Growth marketer and event co-founder, Stef Grieser, is the guest for the 195th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. Kira met Stef and Shine Bootcamp late last year and immediately knew that she had a lot to share with our audience. But we didn’t just talk about speaking. We covered a lot of ground—and went a little longer than usual. Here’s a taste of what we talked about: •   Stef’s career path and how she came to co-found two big events •   how she used meet-ups to “test drive” CTA Conference •   how the first CTA Conference line up led her to focus on diverse voices at conferences •   the mix of speakers and why up-and-comers are just as important as stars •   what she did to turn herself into a conference speaker •   the difference between “growth” marketer and “regular” marketer •   how Stef scaled her team and community as she built CTA Conf •   what makes a good speaker pitch and how to get accepted as a speaker •   the cues that let conference organizers know you are a fit for them •   what she did to connect with sponsors and what makes a good sponsor •   the importance of being a subject matter expert •   the other skills you need on stage… in addition to content •   when you should reach out for help from a speaking coach •   Stef’s thoughts on the importance of copywriting as a business skill •   what Stef would like copywriters to do differently •   how she’s developed her leadership skills and built a team •   the stuff that hasn’t gone very well and how she fixed things •   her advice to anyone who wants to do what she’s done •   product founder fit and the importance of finding it •   Shine Bootcamp—what it is and how to find out more If you’ve ever thought about getting on stage (or presenting workshops or webinars) as a way to build your authority, you won’t want to miss this episode. To hear it, click the play button below or scroll down for links and a full transcript. Or subscribe using your favorite podcast app.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Shine Bootcamp CTA Conf Oli Gardner Lianna Patch Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground   Full Transcript: Kira:   This episode is brought to you by The Copywriter Underground, the place to find more than 20 templates, dozens of presentations on topics like copywriting and marketing your business, a community of successful writers who share ideas and leads, and the Copywriter Club Newsletter mailed directly to your home every month. Learn more at TheCopywriterUnderground.com. Rob:   What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That's what Kira and I do every week at the Copywriter Club podcast. Kira: You're invited to join the club for episode 195 as we chat with marketing specialist and public speaker, Stef Grieser, about growth marketing and what copywriters need to know to help their clients grow, Shine Bootcamp and what you need to know to land a speaking gig, the lessons she's learned after co-founding two big events, how she looks at and solves business problems, and her biggest career struggle. Kira:   Welcome, Stef. Rob:   Hey, Stef. Stef Grieser:   Hi. Kira:   Hello. It's great to have you here. Last time I saw you was at Shine Bootcamp in Toronto last September, so it's such a pleasure to have you here so we can dig into everything that you're doing. Stef Grieser:   I am so excited to be here and excited to dig in. Kira:   All right. Why don't we start with your story? How did you end up as a growth marketer, founder of Call-to-Action Conference and co-founder of Shine Bootcamp? How did you get into all of it? Stef Grieser:   Yeah, that's a really, really great question. I'll go way back when I was graduating university,

Copywriter Christina Torres is our guest for the 194th guest on The Copywriter Club Podcast. Christina is a member of The Underground and The Copywriter Think Tank so we’ve seen some of the changes she’s made to her business recently. We talked to Christina about her business and the kinds of things she does as a pocket CMO. Here’s most what we covered… •  her story—how she became a copywriter by mistake •  how she got permission to do the thing she really wanted to do •  what she does in her role as a CMO in your pocket •  how she’s worked with copywriters as a CMO to help them grow •  some examples of her work and how she helps people get out of their own way •  how she attracts and connects with her clients •  why she took the time to figure out what she doesn’t like to do •  how she found clients in the the programs she has joined •  the importance of taking a stand in her business and making change •  the idea of a culture and equity audit for the work she does •  how she balances all the things competing for her time •  the catalyst for the new program she’s launching •  what an anti-copy course copy course would look like •  launching even when there’s too much other stuff going on This is a good interview you won’t want to miss. To hear it, click the play button below or subscribe on iTunes or Stitcher. Or scroll down to read a full transcript and see links to what we talked about.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Marie Forleo Laura Belgray Samar Owais Matt Hall Rachel Rogers Christina’s website Christina’s insta Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground   Full Transcript: Rob:   This episode is brought to you by The Copywriter Underground, the place to connect with hundreds of smart copywriters who share ideas and strategies to help you master marketing, mindset and copywriting in your business. Learn more at TheCopywriterUnderground.com. Kira:   What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That's what Rob and I do every week at The Copywriter Club Podcast. Rob:   You're invited to join the club for episode 194 as we chat with copywriter and CMO in your pocket, Christina Torres, about how her business has evolved to include much more than copywriting, what she's done to juggle working a job while pursuing a side hustle, how copywriters can speak up and create change, and what she's done to figure out what comes next. Kira:   Welcome, Christina. Christina Torres:   Hey. I'm so excited. Ah, this is like the nerdiest, surreal thing that's ever happened and I'm just pinching myself. I'm so excited to be with my copy uncle and my copy cousin. That's what I call Kira. You're not my copy dad. I feel like Rob is so much cooler. Rob:   I'm a really cool dad, I got to say. I'm not cool at all, actually. Just ask my daughters. They remind me of that, seriously, every single day; how uncool I am. Kira:   That's their job. Their job is to remind you of that every day. I'm glad I'm the cousin and not the mom. I feel like I can barely mom. Christina Torres:   We're too close in age. Kira:   I can barely mom, parent my own children. So, I'm happy to be the cousin. Christina Torres, we have had the pleasure of hanging out with you and working with you in The Underground. And then also, more recently, in The Think Tank over the last month. But we want to really start with your story and how you became a copywriter. And then, more recently, a Pocket CMO. Christina Torres:   Yeah, sure. I think ... I was just listening to your most recent podcast and I feel like everyone says this, but of course I became a copywriter by mistake. I feel like that's so cliché but it's kind of true. Not really.

Copywriter Brittany McBean is our guest for the 193rd episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. We wanted to talk to Brittany after we heard about the success she had when she completed the “Find a Client in 3 Weeks or Less” Challenge we offered in The Copywriter Underground this past April. In addition to that, Brittany shared her path to copywriting and the nuts-and-bolts of creating a paid workshop for your list. Here’s what we covered in this interview: •  going from acting in musical theater to network marketing to copywriter •  the on-the-job training she gave herself when she landed her first project •  what she learned as a signer, dancer and actor that makes her a better copywriter •  how she approaches marketing for herself so it doesn’t feel spammy •  her advice for people who are using Facebook to go live with video •  Brittany’s experience with the Find a Client Challenge in The Copywriter Underground •  the three different kinds of clients you need in your business •  what surprised her most about the challenge… and why she did it anyway •  how you can replicate the momentum Brittany built during the challenge •  what it takes to create and run a masterclass and the supporting materials •  the financial results she got by finishing the Challenge and how she used the money •  what she’s going to do next with her workshops and business •  her adoption journey and how she worked through the difficulties of the process •  her struggle with anxiety and working and the results of dealing with it •  her approach to talking about hard things and helping our clients do it too •  what she’s excited about doing next in her business This is a great discussion about how much you can create in a short time—and a lot more. To hear what Brittany had to share, scroll down and click the play button. Or scroll a little farther to read a full transcript. Better yet, subscribe on your favorite podcast app and never miss an episode.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Brenda McGowan The Project Plan Trello Board Sara Heselin Woods Brittany's website Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground   Full Transcript: Kira:   This episode is brought to you by The Copywriter Underground, the place to find more than 20 templates, dozens of presentations on topics like copywriting and marketing your business, a community of successful writers who share ideas and leads, and The Copywriter Club newsletter mailed directly to your home every month. Learn more at thecopywriterunderground.com. Rob:   What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes, and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That's what Kira and I do every week at The Copywriter Club Podcast. Kira:   You're invited to join the club for episode 193 as we chat with copywriter, Brittany McBean about why she became a copywriter, what her business looks like today, her experience with the find a client in three weeks challenge in The Copywriter Underground, and what she's done recently to think bigger about her business and clients. Welcome Brittany. Rob:   Hey Brittany. Brittany McBean:   Hi, thanks. I just had some free time and thought I'd help you guys out and just ... No, I'm just kidding. My palms are sweaty and I'm really honored and excited to be here. Rob:   This is really good. Kira:   Yeah. We're so excited to talk to you. And this initially started around a challenge that we offered in The Underground in April. And it was how to book a client in three weeks challenge, although it had like a snazzier name and it was the first challenge we ever did in the underground. And it was quite intense because I don't think I knew what I was doing when I was throwing out these challenges. And you were one of the few people,

Business coach and copywriter Ashley Gartland is our guest for the 192nd episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. No surprise, when it comes to helping other writers build a solid business, she knows her stuff. So we asked Ashley about a whole range of things, including: •  how she ended up as a writer and business coach •  what she does in her business today and the problems she helps solve •  what a “better not bigger” business looks like and how to create one •  a few of the business models that help copywriters grow a better business •  what Ashley does to help free up more time for clients •  her “marketing audit” and what it involves for her clients •  what copywriters starting out can do to build a “better not bigger” biz •  what happens when people hit their goals and what comes next •  growing a team and what you should think about as you scale and grow •  how to grow a business WITHOUT a team •  how Ashley deals with overwhelm and getting things done •  the tools that Ashley uses to get things done •  what her team looks like and how she spends her time today •  the packages she offers to her clients •  what you should do if you want to do more copy coaching •  the mistakes Ashley sees copywriters making and holding them back •  what she’s done to take her business to the next level •  the pitch that got Ashley on our podcast and why it worked •  the difference confidence makes in so many of her client’s businesses We also asked about the future of copywriting and what to do if you want a “bigger and better” business. This is a good one. To hear it all, the play button below. Or scroll down for a transcript. Better yet, subscribe and never miss an episode.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Ashley's website Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground   Full Transcript: Rob:   This episode is brought to you by The Copywriter Underground, the place to connect with hundreds of smart copywriters who share your ideas and strategies to help you master marketing, mindset and copywriting in your business. Learn more at thecopywriterunderground.com. Kira:   What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes and their habits then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work. That's what Rob and I do every week at The Copywriter Club Podcast. Rob:   You're invited to join the club for episode 192 as we chat with business coach Ashley Gartland about creating a business that is better not bigger, what business challenges copywriters struggle with the most, her advice on managing time projects and overwhelm and the pitch she sent us that made us want to have her on the show. Kira:   Welcome Ashley. Rob:   Hi Ashley. Ashley:   Hi guys. Thanks so much for having me. Kira:   Yeah. Great to have you and I am excited to talk about the pitch that you sent us because it did grab my attention at least, and you kind of played the long game too as far as building a relationship on Instagram first and I just felt like it was very an elegant approach to pitching podcast. So we'll talk about that, but first let's start with your story. How did you end up as a writer turned business coach? Ashley:   Yeah. So really I have to say that though the way I landed here and the way I got into business by myself in the first place, entrepreneurship, is because I had this really strong desire to have a career that served my life. And when I graduated from journalism school I didn't see a lot of options out there that matched what I envisioned for my life, which was a lot of autonomy, a lot of choice in terms of how my days looked and also where I wanted to live in the country and those things. And so I decided that I would just give it a go and I would see straight out of college how to be a freelance writer and it went really wel...

Copywriter Kaitlyn Parker is our guest for the 191st episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. We got to know Kaitlyn a bit better at this years IRL event where she took more than 35 pages of notes, recording the most important ideas and tactics that the speakers shared. We asked her why she did that as well as a lot of questions about how she's grown her business. Here's most of what we covered: •  how she turned a social media gig with LuluLemon into her current role as a copywriter •  what she does to make social media effective for her business •  how often she posts on instagram (and the size of her audience) •  how to make “copy” posts work on visual media like Instagram or Pinterest •  whether hiring a photographer for social images is worth it or not… ROI? •  how Kaitlyn comes up with the images for her brand •  her process for helping clients develop and dial in their brands •  the packages and deliverables she offers to her clients •  how her prices have evolved as her business has grown •  what her client relationships look like—retainers versus one-time projects •  how clients find her… it’s not all from social media •  the #1 thing she’s gotten from attending live events •  her biggest take away from TCCIRL and the speaker who made the most difference in her biz •  how she manages her time and projects (and the tools she uses) •  what she thinks the future of copywriting looks like If you've ever struggled to effectively capture your brand on social media, you won't want to miss this episode. To hear it, click the button below, or download it to your favorite podcast app. Readers scroll down for a full transcript.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: TCCIRL Sage Polaris Mike Kim Kaitlyn's website Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground   Full Transcript: Kira:   This episode is brought to you by The Copywriter Underground. The place to find more than 20 templates, dozens of presentations on topics like copywriting, and marketing your business. A community of successful writers, who share ideas and leads, and The Copywriter Club newsletter, mailed directly to your home every month. Learn more at thecopywriterunderground.com. Rob:   What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts? Ask them about their success and failures, their work processes and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work, that's what Kira and I do every week, at The Copywriter Club Podcast. Kira:   You're invited to join the club for episode 191, as we chat with copywriter, Kaitlyn Parker about her career path, the importance of branding and social media in growing her business. Why she took 37 pages of notes at TCC in real life, and the process she uses to get crystal clear messaging for her clients. Kira:   Welcome Kaitlyn. Rob:   Hey Kaitlyn. Kaitlyn:   Hey, I'm so happy to be here. Thank you. Kira:   Yeah, we're excited that you're here. We met you at TCC in real life in San Diego. Kaitlyn:   The timing of that was just wild. I don't think any of us knew that it was going to turn into all of this. And here we are, barely have left our houses since then. Kira:   Yeah. Who knew? Craziness. Okay, so Kaitlyn, let's kick this off with your story. How did you end up as a copywriter? Kaitlyn:   Yeah, I feel like most copywriters, it was kind of accidental. I always loved writing and had a personal blog for years. And then after college I was an English major and then post-college, I had an outside sales job. Did that for a bit, but it was in recruiting and I just didn't love it. So I ended up actually working for Lululemon, and I was managing the social media, and marketing, and the community, divisions of the store as we were opening quite a few different stores in the area, and I really loved it. And people would be like, "Oh, that caption was so clever,

Copywriter Per Andreasen interviews Rob and Kira for the 190th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. Per kicks off the interview with the Intro in Danish... which will probably confuse a few listeners expecting to hear our regular intro... then we talked about what's up with us and how the podcast will be changing in the near future. Here's most of what we talked about: •  what the intro sounds like in Danish… thanks to Per Andreasen •  how to thrive in a crisis—Rob’s advice for surviving a recession •  what has happened to our business since the virus became a “thing” •  the Copywriter Roundtable… and why we don’t promote it •  how The Copywriter Club evolved into what it is today •  how The Copywriter Club is a bit like a cult •  how we deal with imposter complex ourselves •  when the biggest leaps in our business have happened •  why we haven’t offered certifications for the training we provide •  our biggest program failure and what we did instead •  the changes we are making to the podcast in the future •  where we think copywriting is going in the future •  why some copywriters are busier than ever during the COVID crisis •  good example of advertising in response to the economic crisis •  what we are doing in our own businesses this year •  when to expect the very first Copywriter Club event in Europe •  a bit about Per’s business too If you're interested in what's going on in our businesses, and what's next for The Copywriter Club, you'll want to check out this episode. Scroll down to listen or for a full transcript. Or better yet, download it to your podcast player now.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: The Copywriter Accelerator The Copywriter Think Tank The tattoo video Gin Walker Elaine Wellman Brian Kurtz  The intro/outro competition details FB post Kim Krause Schwalm Per’s Website Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground   Full Transcript: Per Andreasen:   [Speaking in Danish] Hvad nu hvis du kunne hænge ud med seriøst talentfulde copywritere og andre eksperter. Spørge dem om deres succeser og fiaskoer, deres processer og vaner for så at stjæle en idé eller to som kan inspirere dit eget arbejde? Det er hvad Rob og Kira gør hver eneste uge på…The Copywriter Club Podcast. Yes, this is still The Copywriter Club Podcast. You're invited to join them for Episode 190 as former journalist and now the world's strongest copywriter, Per Andreasen, lovingly grills them on this and that. Rob:   Our Danish audience is going to go through the roof with this episode. So, for this episode of the podcast, we've invited our friend and someone who has participated in The Copywriter Accelerator, The Copywriter Think Tank, has been to all three TCC IRLs, and is the only copywriter that we know in Denmark, I think, to interview us for the podcast and that is, Per Andreasen, the strongest copywriter in the world. Kira:   Yeah, 190, that's pretty crazy. Per Andreasen:   It's amazing. So, the last time I saw you two guys was at your amazing real life event in San Diego, and you've already gone through all your takeaways before, so I want to talk about the crisis that made everything about the event feel even more special than your previous events. Especially, Rob, your talk was about how to thrive in a crisis, can you repeat some of that advice and how that has stayed true? Rob:   I can definitely repeat a lot of the advice, it was kind of... I guess it was a timely talk. I wasn't assuming that it was going to be quite as timely as it was, as I was preparing it. I kind of thought we might be due for a recession in the next year or two, maybe in six months but wasn't thinking that it was going to come together the way that it quite did. And so, I just gave some tips for how to deal with working in a recession. And you can get all of those tips in the videos from the event that we have made available.

In the 189th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, Kira and Rob talk with A-lister Carline Anglade Cole on how supporting her firefighter husband led to a career as a copywriter, what she learned from her mentor Clayton Makepeace, how she connects with her prospects and more. Here's a bit of what we covered... •  her ballsy approach to scoring a 2-hour interview for a marketing position •  how she learned the craft of copywriting without courses or books •  how doing a great job on a promotion got her fired (and 6 months of severance) •  the WWCD question that helped her write a promotion that got a 5% response •  what she’s done to go deeper with copy than most copywriters •  her life as a 50 year old white man •  what she learned from working with Clayton Makepeace •  her approach to testing a lot emotions so the market comes to her •  how her income went up every time Clayton criticized her writing •  what it takes to write kick-butt copy that resonates with her audience •  the “mom test” she uses to make sure she believes in the product •  how she reworks her copy to make sure it’s as strong as possible •  her kids—three of four of whom have worked as copywriters This episode should not be missed. To hear it, click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript. Or add it to your podcast player now.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Clayton Makepeace Gary Bencivenga Kim Schwalm Marcella Allison Carline's Website Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground   Full Transcript: Kira:   This episode is brought to you by The Copywriter Underground. The place to find more than 20 templates, dozens of presentations on topics like copywriting, and marketing, and mindset. A community of successful writers, who share ideas and leads, and The Copywriter Club newsletter, which is mailed directly to your home every month. Learn more at thecopywriterunderground.com. Rob:   If you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their success and failures, their work processes and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work, that's what Kira and I do every week, at The Copywriter Club Podcast. Kira:   You're invited to join the club for episode 189, as we chat with A list health copywriter, Carline Anglade-Cole, about working with and learning from her mentor, Clayton Makepeace. Her life as a 50 year-old white man, hiring her kids to write copy for her, connecting emotionally with the buyers she writes for and what it takes to write kick butt copy. Welcome, Carline. Rob:   Hey, Carline. Carline:    Hey guys, how are you? Rob:   We're doing good. Carline:    I liked the intro, Kira. Kira:   That was all Rob, Rob wrote that one. Carline:    Oh, Rob, very nice, very nice. Kira:   So we're excited to have you back. We tried to record this, I don't know, was it a year ago, more than a year ago now and I had major tech issues and so we didn't know if this interview was ever going to happen, and I'm so glad that it will. So thanks, Carline for coming back. Carline:    Thanks for inviting me. Kira:   And let's kick it off with your story. How did you end up as a copywriter? Carline:    Definitely, it was not a life plan. I had no idea what copywriting was. I had gone to school and got my degree in communications and journalism, so I always knew I wanted to be in the writing field somehow, but didn't quite know how. I just sort of stumbled across the whole copywriting thing when I got a job working at Phillips Publishing. At the time, I had a two and a half year-old and a one-year-old and I was just looking for a job that would complement my husband's schedule. He was a firefighter and he worked shift work. So we had these kids and we wanted to be home with our kids ourselves. So I had to find some kind of a job that would allow me ...

In the 188th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, Kira and Rob talk with Gin Walker on how her experience as a stage actor influences her writing process, her REACH framework, the misunderstanding that turned her into a copywriter, and what she does to manage the competing interests in her life.  Here’s the outline of what we covered during this interview: •  the airplane discussion that “mistakenly” turned her into a copywriter •  the podcast that helped her discover what copywriting is •  the difference between copy editing and copywriting •  how she landed her first few clients after she made her career switch •  what she did to build on her initial success and grow her business •  how attending TCCIRL changed her business •  how being an actor has helped Gin as a copywriter •  how she uses her R.E.A.C.H. framework as she works with clients •  what she does to manage all the competing interests in her life •  how her business has changed over the past year •  what her business looks like today •  the mindset issue she struggles with and how she deals with it •  her experience as the closing speaker at TCCIRL Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: The Copywriter Accelerator The Copywriter Think Tank The Copywriter Club In Real Life Joanna Wiebe Ry Schwartz Joel Klettke Hillary Weiss Tarzan Kay Rob Braddock Gin’s Website Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground   Full Transcript: Rob:   This episode is brought to you by The Copywriter Underground, the place to be if you want to master marketing mindset and copywriting in your business and hit 10K a month without losing your mind. Learn more at TheCopywriterUnderground.com. Kira:   What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That's what Rob and I do every week at The Copywriter Club podcast. Rob:   You're invited to join the club for episode 188 as we chat with copywriter and TCCIRL closing speaker Gin Walker about her journey to copywriting, the advantages that she gets from being a stage actor that apply to copywriting, her reach framework, what she's done to grow her business this year, and what she would do differently if she had to start over today. Kira:   Welcome, Gin. Rob:   Hey, Gin. Gin:   Hello, guys. How are you doing? Kira:   Good. Great to have you here. We have known you for a while. You were in the Copywriter Accelerator program, and then the Copywriter Think Tank Mastermind, and most recently, you spoke on stage at The Copywriter Club in real life in San Diego. So, we've seen firsthand how you've grown in your business, and I'll be fun today to share a little bit more about what's been happening behind the scenes. So, why don't we start with your story and how you ended up as a copywriter? Gin:   Right. Sure, absolutely. Well, it's been relatively recent that I transitioned into copywriting in fact. I started out in educational publishing. I was a copyeditor for the longest time. Decades, in fact. So, yeah, I've been altering minds with word power for a little while. I was a copyeditor, as I say, and a commissioning editor. I was also a kids' science author within that educational field. I went into that basically straight from university, straight after I graduated way back, and I worked up from the bottom there. But then I went freelance, in fact. I worked in-house at a couple of large educational publishers in the UK, this was. But then went freelance way back in 1995. Well, I continued to work with various publishers that I had worked for in-house for a little while, but then it branched out and I was working for various educational publishers.

Conversion designer and sales page specialist Melissa Burkheimer is the guest for the 187th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. We talked a bit about why copywriters and designers don't always see eye-to-eye and what we all can do about it. We also asked Melissa about why she niched to conversion design and sales pages and her design process. Here's what we covered: •  how Melissa became a “conversion designer” and started her own business •  what she learned from investing in several programs and courses •  how she connected with Amy Porterfield through a friend of a friend the “relationship” process she followed to keep adding clients to her roster •  her thoughts about “pay to play” and what we think about it too •  what she would do to get traction if she had to start over today •  why she niched to working only on sales pages and the impact on her biz •  how she prices her sales pages and the packages she offers •  what it takes for copywriters to work closely with a designer •  the difference between a regular designer and a conversion designer •  her design process and how she works on a project •  her thoughts on wireframes provided by copywriters •  what to do when the designer wants to cut your copy •  the things that copywriters do that bug designers •  what Melissa is working on today and the future of conversion design It's another great discussion that will give you plenty to think about. Ready to hear what Melissa has to say? Click the play button below. Or scroll down for a full transcript. Or subscribe on your favorite podcast app so you never miss an episode.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Rick Mulready B-School Amy Porterfield Erica Lyremark Elizabeth Dialto Sage Polaris Gin Walker Melissa’s podcast Melissa’s website The Conversion Design School Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground   Full Transcript: Kira Hug:   This episode is brought to you by The Copywriter Underground, the place to be if you want to master marketing mindset and copywriting in your business and hit 10K a month in your business without losing your mind. Learn more at thecopywriterunderground.com. Rob Marsh:   What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes and their habits then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That's what Kira and I do every week at The Copywriter Club Podcast. Kira Hug:   You're invited to join the club for episode 187 as we chat with conversion designer Melissa Burkheimer about what copywriters need to know about the design process, how good design makes your copy way more effective, why she only works with seven clients a year and why she created the Conversion Design School. Welcome Melissa. Rob Marsh:   Hey Melissa. Melissa Burkheimer:   Hi, Kira and Rob, thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to be here. Kira Hug:   We're excited to have you here. You and I met, I don't know, three or four years ago, maybe working on a sales page project for Rick Mulready, and that's when we first met. And it was such a positive experience to work with you on the design side because I know, we'll talk about this today, but oftentimes it feels like copywriters are battling designers and designers are battling copywriters on projects. But when we worked together, it was just really collaborative and we became friends too, which it was a great surprise too. So a lot of what we're going to talk about today is how we can work together more effectively. But before we dig into that, why don't we just start with you and your story? How did you end up as a designer? Melissa Burkheimer:   So it's a funny story. So I actually had a business, I was a professional paid singer as a kid when I was eight and I quit when I was 11. And by the time I quit,