The Copywriter Club Podcast

This episode is completely different from anything we’ve done before. If you’re here for copywriting and business tips, you might want to skip this one. But, if you want to get a sense of the breadth of musical talent in The Copywriter Club, tune in, because this one is fun. When we announced we were updating the podcast for episode 200 (coming next week), we put out a call for the musicians in our group to let us know what they think the new intro should sound like. We’ve collected the submissions to share with you. What do you think? Did we make the right choice? The copywriters/musicians mentioned in this episode: Mario Bourzac / The Protected Left Jeff Herman / Mind Rock Robin Burke Neil Campbell Paul Hanna/Chad Reisliger Paola / Texxex Daniel Lamb Bill Kernodle Robin Burke Rachael Pilcher Alex Moon Steven Scott Jessica Marshall David Muntner Paul Conners Andre Johnson Addison Rice/The Love Sprockets I’m not sure if we’ve smiled more during a podcast than we did as we put this episode together. Maybe we should do more like this? To hear what these amazing copywriters/musicians had to share, click the play button below. Or subscribe to the podcast on Stitcher or iTunes and never miss another episode.   Other stuff you should check out: The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground   Because this episode is mostly music, there is no transcript. Please listen by clicking the link above.

Copywriter Allea Grummert is our guest for episode 199 of The Copywriter Club Podcast. Wait… are we really about to cross the 200 episode frontier? Yep, and Allea is the perfect guest to wrap up the last 100 episodes before we make a few changes to the format. We talked to Allea about her processes, her switch from blogging to copywriting, and how she’s made so much progress in the past year. Here’s the breakdown of what we covered: •  the long road from personal finance blogger to copywriter •  her best personal finance ideas for copywriters •  why she waited so long to call herself a copywriter •  how she finds clients today (a lot of them come from conferences) •  the take-aways from Allea’s work as an implementer •  her process for working with clients—the whole thing—start to finish •  what she charges for her audits (and what makes them valuable) •  the differences between the packages she offers to clients •  how she structures the email sequences she writes •  how she segments lists for her clients to be most effective •  the CEO check-in and how it helps her grow her business •  the hard stuff she’s dealt with as she’s grown •  the things and people she’s invested in to take her business to the next level •  her advice to “writers” who aren’t yet ready to call themselves “copywriters” •  the advice from a friend that caused a panic attack •  the mindset shifts she’s made over the past year to move forward •  getting paid in advance for work that doesn’t start for a month or more •  working with a VA and how to do it so the relationship works •  her advice for list building and creating content for your list •  her experience at TCCIRL in 2019 and 2020   The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Notion Val Geisler TCCIRL Allea's website Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground   Full Transcript: Kira:   This episode is brought to you by the Copywriter Underground, the place to find more than 20 templates, dozens of presentations on topics like copywriting and marketing your business, a community of successful writers who share ideas and leads, and the Copywriter Club newsletter mailed directly to your home every month. Learn more at thecopywriterunderground.com. Rob:   What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes, and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That's what Kira and I do every week at the Copywriter Club Podcast. Kira:   You're invited to join the club for episode 199 as we chat with copywriter, Allea Grummert about email and why it's such a powerful platform, which email sequences are most important and what they need to accomplish, what she's done to invest in herself and grow her business, and her five-step framework for writing a welcome sequence. Kira:   Welcome, Allea. Allea:   Hello, thanks welcome to you. Kira:   Yeah. Allea:   Welcome to my living room. Kira:   Great to have you here, and let's kick this off with your story. How did you end up as a copywriter? Allea:   So, I started as a blogger. I was a personal finance blogger, and that's what everyone does on a Memorial Day weekend. Yeah, it was just a hobby of mine, and I also have a degree in advertising and public relations so blogging came for me as like a, I called it my digital playground, so I could learn and play. And not just about copywriting. In fact, I didn't call myself a copywriter until this January, but I learned about SEO and content marketing and how online businesses work. So over time though, people would come to me with questions about email marketing, and it was one of those things where it came easy to me and it didn't for others and became a service to them for them to have me do it versus them doing it themselves. Rob:   Before we get into article writing, blogging, or even copywriting, I've got to ask, what are your best personal finance tips? What should we be doing as copywriters to earn or save more money? Allea:   Well, I would always say create a budget. So I've been using mint.com since 2010. So 10 years now. It's a free service just to track all of your expenses. So what I love about it is it connects all of your bank accounts, and so I don't even check my individual statements or bank accounts. I'm only in Mint when I want to see where my money is, and I get in there probably like three times a week. So that's a big one. And then I would say set up moving money to savings as its own budget line item. So don't wait to save just with what's leftover, build that into your budget. Rob:   So what about the easy stuff? The secret weapon. Kira:   I was going to say, Rob knows I don't do budgeting. So these are already great tips for me. Thank you. Allea:   Yeah, absolutely. Anytime. I love talking about budgeting. Kira:   All right. So let's have real questions because we're not going to talk about finance. You said, "I didn't call myself a copywriter until this January." That's surprising to me because you've done so well in your business. So can you just talk a little bit about that? What was the moment where you started calling yourself a copywriter? What changed for you when you started calling yourself a copywriter? Allea:   Absolutely. So I actually started my business ... I'll rewind. I started Duett in August, 2018. And so when I started, I thought I was going to be an online business manager, just with my kind of breadth of knowledge of how online businesses work and tools. And then I got into email marketing, and I really only offered implementation services or strategy. So it was like straddling copy. I was like, "You come to me with the words and I'll put them in the email." And so I was just nervous around that. And I will say a little bit of a backstory, when I worked for an ad agency in college, I wasn't free. I was a very cheaply paid intern, but my boss or supervisor at the time, I remember writing AWK all over one of my pieces of work. It's just like, it's just awkward. And I was like, okay. And that really hurts. And so for years I avoided writing and avoided calling myself a copywriter, and because I've never seen myself as a super creative writer. Like I'm watching Jane the Virgin right now, and I'm like, "Jane, is a writer." I, on the other hand, I've always been more of the left brain side of things. And so it took my business coach kind of prodding me for a couple of months to be like, "Girlfriend, you're writing content, you're doing it." But because it didn't feel like it came from an inspired place of copywriting because it was based more on research and a solid content strategy, and the words just kind of wrote themselves, it felt like it was less about me being the writer and more just me being a communicator. Rob:   So as you've made the switch then, or you've made the adjustment to calling yourself a copywriter, what have you done in your business over the past few months to start attracting copy clients as opposed to maybe the clients you were working with before? Allea:   So, what's crazy is that the client base hasn't changed. It's been mostly me including it in my title. I'm not just an email marketing strategist, I'm also a conversion copywriter. So as I learned more about conversion copywriting in the last six or seven months and realizing that the data and all of that, that I was pulling to be able to base my strategy off of is part of copywriting. So it just gave me more confidence to be able to tie those things together. Rob:   So how were you finding clients before then? Allea:   Well, it hasn't really changed. It's all been through conferences, for the most part, until I did a podcast this past fall as an email marketing strategist expert interview for a food blogging podcast, and then I've got five leads from there, one of which has a retainer client. So otherwise in-person conferences. I started with a personal finance conference that I had gone to with my hobby blog, just paid thousands of dollars to go to conferences over the years. And so that's where I leaned in. I said, "I understand this market." I believe that's one of the first principles of Book Yourself Solid. I don't know if you've read that, but lean into the community that you're already part of. And so I just kind of pivoted. I said, "I was one of you and now I'm serving you. How can I help you? How can I make sure that people know about your message through email marketing?" Kira:   I love that you mentioned that you were on a podcast and you landed five leads from that podcast. Have you been on multiple podcasts since then, or have you noticed any other trends as far as getting new clients from podcasts? Allea:   Let me think. No, not a ton. I've been on maybe three for Duett. When I was on my personal finance blog, I probably did three or four there. So I had experience doing it and it didn't feel weird to pitch things because I knew it would be helpful. So that's actually become part of my internal marketing strategy is to reach out and pitch more podcasts for a couple of reasons, one for credibility; to be able to put it on my website, but then of course for lead gen as well. And because they live longer than a conference as well. People who maybe weren't there will see it and hear and listen as well. Kira:   Yeah, definitely. So can you share maybe some takeaways that you've pulled from your background as an online business manager and from the implementation services and strategy services you were offering before you fully dive into copy, from that expertise in that time, what do you think you're doing differently in your business as a copywriter compared to most other copywriters today? Allea:   That is a great question. I would say number one, I have a process that I follow.

Copywriter and Creative Director Sam Pollen is our guest for the 198th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. Sam works in-house at an agency focused entirely on copy—there are no designers—which might be a dream for a lot of copywriters. We asked Sam about the differences between the freelance world and the work his team does. Here’s an idea of what we covered during the interview: •   how Sam went from zoology student to copywriter and creative director •   why Sam prefers to work in-house and leaves the freelancing to others •   how he works with other writers in his role as a CD •   the creative process at agencies and how everyone works together •   how they work with designers and hand off copy to the design team •   this skills and training a copywriter might need to be a creative director •   Sam’s writing process and how he generates ideas for each assignment •   asking “stupid questions” to truly understand the products we sell •   how asking the questions that aren’t in the brief leads to a big idea •   what’s involved in the process of naming •   how Sam and his agency present work to their clients •   the challenges of working on brand voice and brand guides •   writing luxury copy and the different approaches to a variety of products •   why he wrote a book about a boy with anorexia Sam’s story and advice are worth a listen. To hear what he told us, scroll down and click the play button. Or read a transcript a little farther down the page. And if you never want to miss an episode subscribe to the podcast with your podcast app, then leave a review.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Reed Words Sam's Twitter Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground   Full Transcript: Rob:   This episode is brought to you by The Copywriter Underground, the place to connect with hundreds of smart copywriters who share ideas and strategies to help you master marketing, mindset, and copywriting in your business. Learn more at thecopywriterunderground.com. Kira:   What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That's what Rob and I do every week at The Copywriter Club Podcast. Rob:   You're invited to join The Club for episode 198 as we chat with copywriter and creative director Sam Pollen about working at an agency that's focused on great copy, what it takes to build a verbal identity, his biggest struggle as a creative and as a copywriter, and why he wrote a book about anorexia. Kira:   Welcome, Sam. Rob:   Hey, Sam. Sam Pollen:   Thanks very much for having me, guys. Kira:   Yeah, we're excited to have you today and let's just start this conversation with how you ended up as a creative director. What was that story? Sam Pollen:   I think the story for me is probably the story similar for a lot of people in that position in that I just worked my way up, basically. I did a degree in natural sciences, so zoology and psychology, of all things, so not really related to what I do now at all. Then I worked in photography for a little bit, and then I worked in marketing and sort of fell into copywriting. So copywriting was not a deliberate choice for me, but it was something that I did some of in a marketing job and found out I was good at or good enough at. And then honed my skills and developed and found that that was something I found interesting and had some talent for, and so went from there. About five, six years ago, I had started working with my now boss, Mike Reed, who set up the agency I work for, it's called Reed Words. I was initially hired just to write a sort of, he was starting to build an agency and then we have grown from that point. We have a team of writers and I'm the deputy creative director. I direct other people's work as well as it's still doing quite a bit of writing in my own. Writing that I've done as well as writing and directing from other people. Rob:   Sam, most of the people that we talk to on the podcast are in the freelance world. And your career, seems to be a little bit different. Like you've worked in house and in agencies, primarily. Will you talk a little bit about what it takes to find a job as a copywriter in those kinds of environments? Sam Pollen:   Yeah. The first thing I'd say is that, I have been in house all of my career basically, and the primary reason for that is because I have a huge amount of respect to people who are freelancers. I'm not sure I have the personality for it. And maybe I'm just a little bit scared of it. I worked in house in kind of marketing and just little general marketing role and then in a small company that was actually a design agency and then more and more specialized in writing. I think it brings a different set of challenges, right? There's obviously the financial picture is slightly different. There are some things that are better and there are some things that are worse. And I think there is a kind of different maybe temperamental thing as well. As an in house member of any kind of company, you have all of the good and bad the goes along with being part of a company. You have upon the contract and good things like that, but you also have more process and HR and headaches and things to deal with like that. I think it's a mixed bag. I like the simplicity of it. I like not having to worry about when my work is coming from as much. I can focus on the writing and that's been a really good thing to me. Most of my job is, I don't do a vast amount of kind of new business sort of things. I mainly focus on writing and making the writing really good for myself and for the other rights as I work with. And that's really nice thing, but that's the privileged positions being I realize. The grass is kind of always greener. I'm sure when people who've moved between freelance and staff roles kind of look at the other one, like, "It was really nice to be able to pick my own hours," or they go, "It was really nice to be able to say this isn't my problem at the end of the day." And there is good and bad in both of those roles. I am happy where I am for now. Kira:   I like the idea of saying, "This isn't my problem." And passing it on to someone else. I think that's always appealing. I would like to hear more about how you work with other writers and your role. A couple of questions come to mind, like how can we be better at mentoring and copy chiefing, other writers, especially a lot of freelance writers are growing micro agencies and adding subcontractors to their team, but we often feel like we're not doing this as well as we could be. Sam Pollen:   I think last thing to say would be everyone feels like they're not doing it right. If you are a conscientious leader, and if you are in a position where you are managing other people and you're giving them creative feedback, you are always worried about getting it wrong or kind of not giving them enough or maybe guiding them too much. I worry a lot about because I do a mixture of writing myself and directing other people, I worry that I'm being kind of too prescriptive and you have to check yourself about what is about me approaching something a certain way, because that's the way I do it. And what is about what's right for the job and what's right for the client and what's right for the project. And balancing those two is kind of an ongoing process itself. Checking, getting an external person. I'm lucky enough to work in an agency, so I can ask someone else's opinion, if they're not part of that relationship and not part of that projects. That can be really useful. But yeah, it's an ongoing process. I think you need to really be thinking about reigning in and letting people make mistakes and letting people learn through their mistakes. Because I think we all know as copywriters, that's how we've got better through our careers. And helping someone else do that is a very rewarding thing today is also really challenging thing to do. It's not easy and I think you can be a really great copywriter and not be any good at that. And that's okay. But I think knowing what you're good at is a really powerful thing. Rob:   Sam, will you talk a little bit about the creative process that your agency? Much of the work that I do is oftentimes alone in my office. I miss my agency days and the back and forth, the creativity that can happen from that. So will you just tell us a little about that creative process where you work? Sam Pollen:   Yeah, absolutely. Worth saying at the time of recording, it's obviously a little bit strange because we're all working from homes. Normally we are in an agency in London and there were about 10 people in our team. It's only a little office, a little agency, we all by and large, not fully, but in that office day to day. Occasionally we are onsite with clients or working from home or things like that. But basically, we're all there day to day. In terms of how it works. I think copywriting agency, there aren't that many of us around, but there are a few of us. And I think it should be interesting because for some kinds of projects, it makes sense to replicate the kind of format of a design agency or kind of advertising agency. And I think that's how lots of copywriting agencies structure themselves. So they will have a creative director who is who's reviewing work that writers create and kind of signing it off. And then that goes out to the client. In the kind of classic design agency model. Actually, I think for writing projects that often doesn't make sense and you need a kind of more flexible model that is maybe more like the tech world. But it's more about people being more self-guided.

Red hot copywriter Lorrie Morgan is our guest for the 197th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. As a stay-at-home mom she looked for a job that she could do from home. When a client asked for a 52-part auto responder, she knew she had to get serious about the craft. And she shared her decades of experience, as we asked about: •   her journey from actor to copywriter to direct response guru •   what she learned from her mentors (and who they are) •   what it takes to “write fearlessly” … Lorrie breaks down what she did •   the “pain-in-the-butt” writing exercise that makes you into a better writer •   what she did to attract clients when she was just starting out •   what she learned from moving 16 times before she graduated from high school •   how she uses an alter-ego to go beyond her limitations and write copy •   self-care and how Lorrie makes sure she feels good enough to write well •   the biggest mistakes her copywriter clients make •   the differences between writing for men and women •   the “tarket” trick for connecting on a deeper emotional level in copy •   the process of writing her book and why she wrote it •   what’s on Rob’s vision board (and why Kira might need one) •   why Lorrie wears a cowboy hat to events •   what is was like to work on Baywatch—the truth about David Hasslehoff Lorrie shares some great advice to copywriters who want to grow. To hear what she said, scroll down and click the play button. Or scroll a bit farther for a transcript. And if you’re really serious about getting better as a copywriter, subscribe to the podcast (so you don’t miss an episode) and leave a review.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Baywatch Gary Halbert John Carlton Kevin Rogers Pauline Longdon Todd Herman Ignite Your Moxie Ali Brown Andre The Giant Lorrie’s website Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground   Full Transcript: Kira:   This episode is brought to you by The Copywriter Underground, the place to find more than 20 templates, dozens of presentations and topics like copywriting, marketing, mindset. A community of successful writers who share ideas and leads and a copywriter club newsletter which is mailed directly to your home every single month. Learn more at thecopywriterunderground.com. Rob:   What if you can hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes and their habits, then instill an idea or two to inspire your own work, that's what Kira and I do every week at The Copywriter Club podcast. Kira:   You're invited to join the club for Episode 197 as we chat with Red Hot copywriter Lorrie Morgan about the differences between writing for men and women, why she wrote her book, Ignite Your Moxie and what it's about, what she's done to create a profitable copywriting business, and how she landed a job working on the set of Baywatch. Welcome, Lorrie. Rob:   Hey, Lorrie. Lorrie Morgan:   Hey, good to be here, you guys. Kira:   Great to have you here, Lorrie. So, let's start. As much as I want to ask you everything about Baywatch right away, I feel like we should wait to hear about that. But let's start with your story. How did you end up as a copywriter? Lorrie Morgan:   Oh yes, everyone has a story. Nobody wants to be a copywriter when they're a little girl, do they? So, I have a journalism degree. But I always wanted to be an actress. So, this is the rambling version, but I'll try to get to the point real quick. So, I moved to California, which is where I live now, to be an actress. We'll jump into the Baywatch a little bit later, too. But I'm a terrible actress, it turns out. I just really like the whole idea of it. So instead, I got married and I had children, which was wonderful. And then, I ended up going getting divorced and had to get a job. Oh, no. And the whole time I was working in corporate, I was dying to be home with my kids again and be a stay-at-home mom again. And I was like, "Wait a second, I can write. There's no reason why I can't write from home." And this was in the 90s, right, when the internet was starting to get to be a thing. And my boss ended up retiring at my business and I just never got another job. I'm like, "I'm going to figure out how to be a writer from home." And I focused on doing like press releases and stuff like that. And then, a client came to me, who wanted me to write 52 autoresponders and I'm like, "What the hell is an autoresponder?" And that was my introduction into copywriting. And he introduced me to Gary Halbert, the style, and Dan Kennedy. And I'm like, "Oh my God, where has this been my whole life. This is what I want to do." This is in 1999. And at this time, there weren't the dozens and hundreds of copywriting trainings that there are now. So, you really had to either work for an agency which I did not do, or you just had to figure it out on your own. And so, I just became obsessed within, I copied letters by hand, I found out who was the best. I think what pushed me over the edge was hiring John Carlton to be my mentor. And he really held my feet to the fire and made me get good really fast. And I went to a lot of events and it bubbled up from there. So, that's how I started Red Hot Copy, was in the 90s, so I could be with my kids. Rob:   I love it. So, I'd love to know more about the mentorship with John Carlton. We've never had the pleasure of having him on the podcast, but I've heard very good things. I've seen him speak a couple of times. And I've seen a lot of the material that he puts out including some of his best sales pages. Tell us a little bit about that mentorship and the kinds of things that you learned and did while you were working with John. Lorrie Morgan:   Wow, John is my favorite mentor. I've also mentored with Gary Halbert and Dan Kennedy both later on down the line. But John is amazing because he is a no-bullshit-guy. Pardon my French. But he will tell you like it is. And he makes you do the work. So, he was hard. He sent me crying from the room many times like, "Oh, I'm never going to be able to do this." And then, he told me, "Look, I'm hard on you because you're good. And I want you to be better." And so, there were no cutting corners or no pats on the head. You really had to earn his praise. And I think I did because he actually started having me come to his live events to be the "female voice of reason" in the room or just interpret how women like to buy. Because as you know, it's a big boys' club when copywriting was getting started. It's only just changing, I would say, in the last five years. So, I was one of the few women who had any visibility way back then. And I've been around for a long time. So, working with John has been wonderful. And the kinds of stuff he would teach is to just like write your copy, balls to the wall, just full out and then you can go back and edit, you can walk it back. But it's hard to amp up your copy after you've already written it. So, no holds barred, just go for it, and write just fearlessly. That's the thing I learned from him most is just to write fearlessly. Kira:   Wow, I love that lesson. And to get a little bit deeper into that, I'm hearing that I'm like, "Oh, I want to write fearlessly." How do we do that? How do copywriters write without fear and especially if they feel lit up even hearing those words, what can we do to break it down so we can do that better and do more of it? Lorrie Morgan:   A lot of us have the imposter syndrome going on. That's a big buzz phrase going on right now. But it's really true. And the way you can overcome feeling like you're a fraud is to get really good at it. And so, you've got to do the work. You can't shortcut reading all those materials like reading Gary Halbert, reading John Carlton stuff. Everything he's written, I've read. And like I said, I've gone to all of his events. Dan Kennedy is another one. The guys and gals who have been there and done that. You really need to take the time to roll up your sleeves and get in there and do the work. You have to study it. And I mentioned when I first started, handwriting a sales letters. That's a really great way to get down to the skeleton of what's underneath copy and you start to see there's a pattern. There's a rhythm to copy that you can't necessarily see when you first start just reading it. When you write it, there's something about going from your head to your hand that really lights up your copywriting skills in a way that nothing else really can. So, I would definitely recommend doing that, rewriting sales letters out by hand. I know it's a pain in the butt, but it works. If anything, it is a shortcut to learning things and learning how people who are the masters turn phrases. And also when I'm writing copy, I will read good copy before I sit down to write it because you've got to have personality in your copy and you have to have a voice that comes through in your copy or just his milk toast and boring. So, just to get inspired, a lot of times I would read John Carlton's. Nobody writes like John, as he's unique. And I'm not trying to write like him, but it is inspiring to read somebody who really knows what they're doing, and watch all the stops that they hit and stuff. So, I recommend doing that, getting in there. Rob:   Lorrie, clearly you understood the value of investing in yourself and in training and coaches very early on. How did you find clients? What were the things that you were doing to attract this first couple of clients to your business? Lorrie Morgan:   That's a great question, actually. Because it does ebb and flow. And especially when you're starting out, I really relied on live events to meet people. There's something about meeting somebody face to face. And unfortunately,

Copywriter and persuasion expert Adil Amarsi is the guest for the 196th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. Adil is working on a book on Persuasion and recently changed the title he prefers from Copywriter to Creative Director because he does so much more than copy. We covered quite a bit of ground during our discussion, including: •  how writing daily stories as a kid led to a gig as a copywriter (before he knew what copywriting was) •  his process for attracting his first clients •  what he did to learn copywriting and who he learned it from •  the “first week’s earnings” deal that netted him six figures •  what not to do when you get a windfall •  going from £300 to $30,000 + 4%—the secret of Adil’s success •  mental health issues and the impact on his business •  how much time he spends writing versus ideation •  breaking down what a $30K project looks like •  the clause that Adil adds to his contract that you’ll definitely want to borrow •  walking the line between manipulation and persuasion •  one of the words you should never use in your copy •  what it means to be a creative director and why he doesn’t call himself a copywriter •  what it takes to create a great offer •  the practical joke he played on one of his friends You won’t want to miss this one. Download it to your favorite podcast app or simple scroll down and press the play button. You’ll also find a full transcript and links below.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: John Carlton Gary Halbert PsychoCybernetics Jay Abraham The Irresistible Offer Adil's website Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground   Full Transcript: Rob:   This episode is brought to you by The Copywriter Underground, the place to connect with hundreds of smart copywriters who share ideas and strategies to help you master marketing, mindset and copywriting in your business. Learn more at thecopywriterunderground.com. Kira:   What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes and their habits, then steal an idea or two inspire your own work? That's what Rob and I do every week at The Copywriter Club podcast. Rob:   You're invited to join the club for episode 196 as we chat with copywriter, podcaster and alchemists of persuasion, Adil Amarsi, about telling better stories, what it takes to create a great offer, how to be more persuasive, and his approach to consulting with his clients on their marketing needs. Kira:   Welcome, Adil. Adil:   Hi. Thanks for having me, guys. Kira:   Yeah, and just shout out before we jump into Brennan Hopkins, who introduced us, so thank you, Brennan for making the introduction. And let's just kick this off with your story. How did you end up as a copywriter, consultant, podcaster, artists and we can go on and on, and on? Adil:   Yeah. So first of all, thank you, Brennan, because he did make this happen. So my story's kind of I used to think it was interesting until I actually sat down and wrote it out with a friend. So I moved from Africa, like East Africa to the UK when I was four years old. About a year into moving to the UK, in the mid-90s, my dad ended up having a herniated disk that affected his walking, so he was paralyzed from the waist down for about two years. And it's important to know that I have an older sister and the 90s were basically known as Nickelodeon versus Cartoon Network. You can pretty much guess which side I sided with and which side she went with. I was Cartoon Network, she was Nickelodeon. I found that the best way I could watch cartoons was to sit down and watch whatever my dad was watching at the time. In the UK my dad really loved watching four shows, in particular. Two quite important. The other two, somewhat. So the first one was the news. My dad loved watching the news. I do not love watching the news. He did, but there was a lot that I picked up from there, especially about how presentation is done and essentially how to speak in a presentable manner. Very unconsciously, I picked up those habits. The second was a trigger show known as Fifteen to One. It was just like the weakest link but less competitive. It was like playing Trivial Pursuit with a real live audience of 15 people. My dad loved the show called Countdown, which is about words and numbers. And finally, his favorite show of all, for some strange reason, he loved watching the Home Shopping channel with Billy Mays. And he would watch it for two hours a day, six days a week. And this went on for like two years. So in the space of about three hours, or three and a half hours of television programming, me at the age of five to the time I was seven, when my brain is most susceptible to taking on this kind of information, it's being bombarded with not only cartoons, high levels of creativity because I love to draw, but I'm also being bombarded with mathematics, analysis, trivia, words, propaganda, and of course, direct selling. And this starts to amalgamate and form into my brain. Fast forward to the time about 11, 12 years old, my dad can walk again. I'm about to go up from what we call the UK secondary school to, sorry, primary school to secondary school, or I think it's middle school in the US. My parents were pulled into a parent-teacher conference, and they said, well, your son's smart, but he's a bit of a perfectionist. And my parents would ask, what do you mean? They said, well, he sits down and he ... If he makes a single mistake on a page, instead of crossing it out, he'll rip out the page and start again. And my mom was like, "Okay." And my dad was like, "Okay." My dad was walking at this point. He had recovered. The herniated disc had like eased up off of his spinal cord, and he had a small business that he was running. This is important to say, because my dad ended up making me write a story every single day in a notepad to give to him. And I thought it was ... At the time I was like, I don't really like doing this, but I got to do it. Even if it's a small thing, I should get it done. Shortly after my parents separated for a short while, so my mother, my sister, and I moved across city to another part of town, where my school commute became, instead of a 30 minute walk, it became a two hour journey. And in that two hour journey, an hour there, an hour back. Bit of a lonely kid, low self-esteem, very creative. I saw drawing. I started writing poetry. I started writing hip hop and rap lyrics because that was the thing I was into. I kept writing these stories for my dad. And every weekend I'd go see my dad, I'd drop off these stories to him. And this went on for about two or three years. Around this time, I started getting to other things like stand-up comedy, hip hop, as in actually participating in rap battles because you had to be quick and fast on your feet and that was always a fun thing for me. Slam poetry and of course, I actually hung up my ability to draw for a while. I shelved it because I didn't like my teacher. And then fast forward to the time I'm 18, I'm also a martial artist at this point. 18 years old, I joined a network marketing company. Things don't go as well as you want them to. I started off quite well but things kind of deteriorated. I decided to go online to find out how to do network marketing online. I end up writing a blog post and I was really bad at traffic. I wrote a blog post about the network marketing company I was with at the time, which was a self-development company. I had 10 people view that post, I had seven people buy it from me. I had no idea what I was doing. I went to a marketing seminar and essentially I spoke to two people there and they said, hey, what are you really good at? And I said, "Well, I'm not very good at many things." They said, yeah, but what are you good at? I said, "I had 10 people read a blog post and 7 of them gave me money. I know that's not the best result you could go for. But hey, I'm not very good at the traffic." And they were just both looking at me like, the speakers in the room, they were just looking at me like I was an idiot. That I just said something that was so stupid. Of course, I asked. I'm an 18, 19 year old kid, I'm like, "What's going on?" And they're like, you do realize that's kind of unheard of, and you have a room full of people that will actually pay you a lot of money for those kinds of results. So ever since then, I went back home. My parents again, my parents did get back together like a few years prior. I see my dad I talked to him. I'm like, "Hey, I've decided on a new career path. I'm going to go down the copywriting route." Because I was a dropout as well. So I dropped out of high school at 17. Graduated high school, but like we have a thing called college here. So technically same thing. But yeah, essentially that was it. At that point my dad went upstairs, pulled out a black binder. He gave it to me and said, "Read this." I got about two three ads into it. So I was reading the advertisements for his projects when he had his company before he sold it. I said, "These seem familiar." He goes, "Yeah, we used to take your stories, clean up the grammar, add a headline, give an actual real story of what we were selling and mailed this out. You were always the essential basis of how we started all copy." I was like, "That's crazy." Over the last 12 years, it's just been one crazy thing after the other. That's basically what led me to where I'm at today. Rob:   I love how serendipity seems to play a part in a lot of copywriters lives. I've got to know though, that first blog post, what did you do that was so effective so that you could get essentially a 70% conversion rate from what you wrote. Adil:   I wish I knew. I wish I still had that blog post. It was on an old blogspot blog.

Growth marketer and event co-founder, Stef Grieser, is the guest for the 195th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. Kira met Stef and Shine Bootcamp late last year and immediately knew that she had a lot to share with our audience. But we didn’t just talk about speaking. We covered a lot of ground—and went a little longer than usual. Here’s a taste of what we talked about: •   Stef’s career path and how she came to co-found two big events •   how she used meet-ups to “test drive” CTA Conference •   how the first CTA Conference line up led her to focus on diverse voices at conferences •   the mix of speakers and why up-and-comers are just as important as stars •   what she did to turn herself into a conference speaker •   the difference between “growth” marketer and “regular” marketer •   how Stef scaled her team and community as she built CTA Conf •   what makes a good speaker pitch and how to get accepted as a speaker •   the cues that let conference organizers know you are a fit for them •   what she did to connect with sponsors and what makes a good sponsor •   the importance of being a subject matter expert •   the other skills you need on stage… in addition to content •   when you should reach out for help from a speaking coach •   Stef’s thoughts on the importance of copywriting as a business skill •   what Stef would like copywriters to do differently •   how she’s developed her leadership skills and built a team •   the stuff that hasn’t gone very well and how she fixed things •   her advice to anyone who wants to do what she’s done •   product founder fit and the importance of finding it •   Shine Bootcamp—what it is and how to find out more If you’ve ever thought about getting on stage (or presenting workshops or webinars) as a way to build your authority, you won’t want to miss this episode. To hear it, click the play button below or scroll down for links and a full transcript. Or subscribe using your favorite podcast app.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Shine Bootcamp CTA Conf Oli Gardner Lianna Patch Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground   Full Transcript: Kira:   This episode is brought to you by The Copywriter Underground, the place to find more than 20 templates, dozens of presentations on topics like copywriting and marketing your business, a community of successful writers who share ideas and leads, and the Copywriter Club Newsletter mailed directly to your home every month. Learn more at TheCopywriterUnderground.com. Rob:   What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That's what Kira and I do every week at the Copywriter Club podcast. Kira: You're invited to join the club for episode 195 as we chat with marketing specialist and public speaker, Stef Grieser, about growth marketing and what copywriters need to know to help their clients grow, Shine Bootcamp and what you need to know to land a speaking gig, the lessons she's learned after co-founding two big events, how she looks at and solves business problems, and her biggest career struggle. Kira:   Welcome, Stef. Rob:   Hey, Stef. Stef Grieser:   Hi. Kira:   Hello. It's great to have you here. Last time I saw you was at Shine Bootcamp in Toronto last September, so it's such a pleasure to have you here so we can dig into everything that you're doing. Stef Grieser:   I am so excited to be here and excited to dig in. Kira:   All right. Why don't we start with your story? How did you end up as a growth marketer, founder of Call-to-Action Conference and co-founder of Shine Bootcamp? How did you get into all of it? Stef Grieser:   Yeah, that's a really, really great question. I'll go way back when I was graduating university, I had worked internships and industries that were established for decades and really, really big companies, like I'm talking some of the biggest in the world, like Exxon Mobil. I 180'd, not 360'd because that would mean I was right back where I started, but no. I 180'd and I decided that I really just wanted to get on the ground floor of a growing startup. That landed me at a little software company at the time called Unbounce and I started there as their second marketer who was really primarily in charge of our community and our blog. That looked at a bunch of things that essentially working with guest bloggers, and then also cultivating community over social media, but for the most part, it was very digital. Like, software is very digital and it was a very digital play. I remember about one year in, and I remember this so vividly, I went out to lunch. It was this tiny Lebanese restaurant. It was in a basement with our CEO, Rick. We sat there and I pitched him on the idea of taking this community and this content that we cultivated and turning it into an event and going IRL, so to say. We were a software company and everything is so distant when you are a software company and I felt like an in-person event or in-person events, plural, or conference could really help strengthen the brand, give us a lot of great industry relationships, but also it was just an extension of our content because we had such a great blog at the time. It was well known in the industry and it was just taking the content on the blog and basically pulling it into another medium. Rick took the bait and I started really MVP and started off with a bunch of little meetups. As those meetups were successful, we started our first conference and the first conference was Call to Action Conference. It was 300 people and I remember I was so heads down creating this conference that when I sat and watched the conference when it was all said and done, I saw that there was two women up on stage and there was about eight dudes. That was because I was relying heavily on the network of the six co-founders of the Unbounce, all who of which were six white men and that didn't really sit well with me, so year after year, we got better. We brought more women in, but then also just other diverse voices. I also had this big feeling that we needed to bring in people that weren't "speakers." Like, they wouldn't self-identify as speakers, but they were really smart. They had something to teach and if you gave them that spot at the conference, they were going to step up to the plate and then deliver. What I call that is the Underground or the Underdog Speaker or the Up and Coming Speaker and I really, truly believe that if you... Of course, you want the big names, but if you sprinkle your conference with speakers that aren't well known but are up and coming, that have something share, your conference will be better for it and that's actually how Shine Bootcamp started. I grew that conference from 300 to over a thousand and I actually grew a team of people that put on the conference as well and then the one year, I raised my hand and I was like, "I think I have..." It's funny. I had so many people knocking on my door asking me like, "Oh. How did you sell tickets? How did you do this conference thing and how did you even market it? How did you get people to show up?" They had so many questions about the event and how I built CTA Conf, so after the 20th coffee date, I was like, "I think I have something to speak about. I think I could speak." I raised my hand and I spoke at the conference that I created, but I realized that being a subject matter expert is really different than being a speaker. It's just a different skillset, there's little nuances. I remember, I got help. I got coaching because I was going up on stage with industry heavy hitters and I really didn't want to fall flat on my face. Also, this was the conference that my entire company was at. That's scary in and of itself. I think sometimes the scariest thing about presenting is presenting to people that know you and that you have to go back to the office on Monday and they'll see you again. I just remember being like, "What have I done? I just signed up for this and now I'm part of the speaker line up, but I am in no way, shape or form ready." I ended up getting coaching and I remember, I remember this so clearly, after my first dry run, Oli Gardner, who was my coach, said to me... I remember asking him the question, "So, do you think I'm good enough to speak on stage?" He said, "Uh, not yet, but you will be." It was really, really awesome because I basically took that and just built upon it and that's basically the earliest forms of what Shine was. Essentially, fast forward the next year people asked me at the company, "Oh, are you going to speak again?" I was like, "No, I'm not going to speak again," but it kind of clicked in my head that we should have this open speaking spot. Hey, let's have this open speaking spot for people internally, like me, to raise their hands. They'll have to pitch and then we'll take one of them. The first year, I remember all four people who pitched to speak were all women and at that time there was two people who spoke on behalf of the company and they were two men. I was like, "This is awesome. We are giving people a shot to get up on stage and share their knowledge." Anyways, that speaker behind me, she went up on stage and absolutely killed it. She got invited to speak at, I think, 10 conferences right after CTA Conf that year and then we wrote about this in a big, lengthy blog post, myself and Amy Wood, who's one of the co-founders of Shine, we wrote about this whole journey. About how conference organizers, it's an excuse to not have diverse speaking lineups and what you can do. It hit a chord because at that time it was kind of when the Me Too movement was heating up. It was very timely and there were so many comments.

Copywriter Christina Torres is our guest for the 194th guest on The Copywriter Club Podcast. Christina is a member of The Underground and The Copywriter Think Tank so we’ve seen some of the changes she’s made to her business recently. We talked to Christina about her business and the kinds of things she does as a pocket CMO. Here’s most what we covered… •  her story—how she became a copywriter by mistake •  how she got permission to do the thing she really wanted to do •  what she does in her role as a CMO in your pocket •  how she’s worked with copywriters as a CMO to help them grow •  some examples of her work and how she helps people get out of their own way •  how she attracts and connects with her clients •  why she took the time to figure out what she doesn’t like to do •  how she found clients in the the programs she has joined •  the importance of taking a stand in her business and making change •  the idea of a culture and equity audit for the work she does •  how she balances all the things competing for her time •  the catalyst for the new program she’s launching •  what an anti-copy course copy course would look like •  launching even when there’s too much other stuff going on This is a good interview you won’t want to miss. To hear it, click the play button below or subscribe on iTunes or Stitcher. Or scroll down to read a full transcript and see links to what we talked about.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Marie Forleo Laura Belgray Samar Owais Matt Hall Rachel Rogers Christina’s website Christina’s insta Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground   Full Transcript: Rob:   This episode is brought to you by The Copywriter Underground, the place to connect with hundreds of smart copywriters who share ideas and strategies to help you master marketing, mindset and copywriting in your business. Learn more at TheCopywriterUnderground.com. Kira:   What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That's what Rob and I do every week at The Copywriter Club Podcast. Rob:   You're invited to join the club for episode 194 as we chat with copywriter and CMO in your pocket, Christina Torres, about how her business has evolved to include much more than copywriting, what she's done to juggle working a job while pursuing a side hustle, how copywriters can speak up and create change, and what she's done to figure out what comes next. Kira:   Welcome, Christina. Christina Torres:   Hey. I'm so excited. Ah, this is like the nerdiest, surreal thing that's ever happened and I'm just pinching myself. I'm so excited to be with my copy uncle and my copy cousin. That's what I call Kira. You're not my copy dad. I feel like Rob is so much cooler. Rob:   I'm a really cool dad, I got to say. I'm not cool at all, actually. Just ask my daughters. They remind me of that, seriously, every single day; how uncool I am. Kira:   That's their job. Their job is to remind you of that every day. I'm glad I'm the cousin and not the mom. I feel like I can barely mom. Christina Torres:   We're too close in age. Kira:   I can barely mom, parent my own children. So, I'm happy to be the cousin. Christina Torres, we have had the pleasure of hanging out with you and working with you in The Underground. And then also, more recently, in The Think Tank over the last month. But we want to really start with your story and how you became a copywriter. And then, more recently, a Pocket CMO. Christina Torres:   Yeah, sure. I think ... I was just listening to your most recent podcast and I feel like everyone says this, but of course I became a copywriter by mistake. I feel like that's so cliché but it's kind of true. Not really. I became a copywriter by mistake in that I didn't know what it was, but I knew I always wanted to be a Mad Men. I was, before it was cool and before people really were like, "Ooooh." ... Before there was Casper and before there was all these cool brands, I would definitely take out my Razr Motorola phone ... That probably doesn't age me too far back ... But I would take pictures of all the cute and clever ads on the subway because I was just obsessed with language and comedy and just funny things. I was always taking pictures because they would just make me giggle. And we run a lot of ads in the New York City subway. It started there, but I didn't know what copywriting was. I was like ... I knew I was wanted to be in advertising, but that's not what I did. I ended up in finance because it's what my mom did. My mom was in public relations and in investor relations. And I went to school for business management. So, now I'm using my degree kind of, but I wasn't then. And I was like, "Where can I make a quick buck and still go to school?" So, I became an administrative assistant all over finance and it just became comfortable and that's where I got stuck. But wherever I could write something, and there's a lot of writing in that and a lot of using other execut- ... I literally would have to use my executive's voice. They weren't writing emails, they weren't writing memos. They were just like, "Can you fix this up?" Or, "Is this on tone?" And I'd just be like, "What would Susan do?" Then I would just write an email. And that was just like, "Oh, I really love this." I was like, "What is this called? There's a thing. What is this called?" And so, I looked it up and how I could get into advertising. And I'll be frank. Before I found The Copywriter Club, I was going on forums and stuff like that and people weren't saying great things about working at advertising companies. I was like, "Maybe this isn't it. Maybe I don't need to work at an advertising company." And so, I just stayed at my day job and I looked for creative spaces. I was always updating people's resumes and always getting people jobs and so I was like, "There has to be money in this, but I don't like resume writing." I just kept searching and I found TCC. I don't even know how it happened. I think it was just podcasts. I think I first found ... Backtracking, I thought I was going to be a coach. There were a lot of weird pivots in my career life. I was just one of those people who were like, "I want to be this. Let's figure out how to do it." And I thought I was going to be a coach and I hired this lady to be my coach. And I thought I was going to be this coach for women of color and single moms. It was very multifaceted. And then I was just like, "This seems exhausting. Absolutely not." And then she was like, "But you're really good at writing emails." I had a following for like a second and I was like, "Oh, maybe this copy thing is a thing." And then I looked it up and I think I was looking up Marie Forleo and then I found Laura Belgray. And then I heard Laura Belgray on The Copywriter Club and I was like, "This is it. This is what I want to do. I want to curse in emails, I want to be silly, I want to be myself, and I want to help other people be themselves and sell stuff. And so, I was like, "Well, I guess I ... If Laura Belgray is on TCC then I need to listen to every TCC episode." And I did. And then I got into the group and then I paid for the membership and then I just asked you all a million and one questions on hot seats and it was when I was like, "Rob, how do I get into agencies?" I will always think of Rob whenever I think of my copywriting story. And he was like, "You don't need an agency. You can do this by yourself." And that was all the permission I needed. And so, I just really scrappily and probably really poorly started copywriting. And my first one ... I knew I was really good at it ... I forget that I have this story in my back pocket. I was actually selling a bunch of furniture and I knew who I wanted to have my furniture. I really loved it. I was moving out of my apartment to move back in with my mom so I could save money for a house and I was like, "I need someone with Brooklyn swag who is going to treat my furniture beautifully and that is going to ... " I basically put this ad on Craig's List talking to the person who needs this furniture, the furniture who needs that person. And I can't remember what the ad was, but someone from Project Runway called and was like, "We'd like to look at your furniture." And I was like, "That's not ... This is a scam." Lo and behold, we got on the phone and some really hot production assistants came over and they bought my furniture for like $500 and I was like, "That's exactly who I wanted to have this furniture. I have a chance. I have a shot." Yeah. It started there and then I got a GoDaddy website and I just owned it. I just told everybody that I was a copywriter, even if I didn't know what the hell it was. Rob:   Christina, in addition to copywriter you also call yourself a CMO in your pocket. What else do you do besides copywriting? Christina Torres:   What I found was because I worked with a lot of bootstrap, a lot of startup solopreneurs, copy was kind of the least of the worries. And I always found myself like, "Oh, what if you thought about this?" And, "What if you consulted this?" And, "Maybe the packages for this need to be positioned this way." So, it kind of was like me offering a little bit more consulting than just the copy. And I was like, "Well, what if I can package this?" It's clear that copy on its own is not what's going to get people there and I think because I was so engrossed in digital marketing I just assumed everyone knew. I just assumed everyone followed the same gurus, that everybody has listened to TCC and they knew that copy is great but you need to really know your market. And I found that people weren't really doing that.

Copywriter Brittany McBean is our guest for the 193rd episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. We wanted to talk to Brittany after we heard about the success she had when she completed the “Find a Client in 3 Weeks or Less” Challenge we offered in The Copywriter Underground this past April. In addition to that, Brittany shared her path to copywriting and the nuts-and-bolts of creating a paid workshop for your list. Here’s what we covered in this interview: •  going from acting in musical theater to network marketing to copywriter •  the on-the-job training she gave herself when she landed her first project •  what she learned as a signer, dancer and actor that makes her a better copywriter •  how she approaches marketing for herself so it doesn’t feel spammy •  her advice for people who are using Facebook to go live with video •  Brittany’s experience with the Find a Client Challenge in The Copywriter Underground •  the three different kinds of clients you need in your business •  what surprised her most about the challenge… and why she did it anyway •  how you can replicate the momentum Brittany built during the challenge •  what it takes to create and run a masterclass and the supporting materials •  the financial results she got by finishing the Challenge and how she used the money •  what she’s going to do next with her workshops and business •  her adoption journey and how she worked through the difficulties of the process •  her struggle with anxiety and working and the results of dealing with it •  her approach to talking about hard things and helping our clients do it too •  what she’s excited about doing next in her business This is a great discussion about how much you can create in a short time—and a lot more. To hear what Brittany had to share, scroll down and click the play button. Or scroll a little farther to read a full transcript. Better yet, subscribe on your favorite podcast app and never miss an episode.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Brenda McGowan The Project Plan Trello Board Sara Heselin Woods Brittany's website Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground   Full Transcript: Kira:   This episode is brought to you by The Copywriter Underground, the place to find more than 20 templates, dozens of presentations on topics like copywriting and marketing your business, a community of successful writers who share ideas and leads, and The Copywriter Club newsletter mailed directly to your home every month. Learn more at thecopywriterunderground.com. Rob:   What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes, and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That's what Kira and I do every week at The Copywriter Club Podcast. Kira:   You're invited to join the club for episode 193 as we chat with copywriter, Brittany McBean about why she became a copywriter, what her business looks like today, her experience with the find a client in three weeks challenge in The Copywriter Underground, and what she's done recently to think bigger about her business and clients. Welcome Brittany. Rob:   Hey Brittany. Brittany McBean:   Hi, thanks. I just had some free time and thought I'd help you guys out and just ... No, I'm just kidding. My palms are sweaty and I'm really honored and excited to be here. Rob:   This is really good. Kira:   Yeah. We're so excited to talk to you. And this initially started around a challenge that we offered in The Underground in April. And it was how to book a client in three weeks challenge, although it had like a snazzier name and it was the first challenge we ever did in the underground. And it was quite intense because I don't think I knew what I was doing when I was throwing out these challenges. And you were one of the few people, there were a couple who completed every single challenge that we threw out there, which is 12 in depth challenges. And you did all of them. And then you had a really great story too about the impact on your business. So I know we're going to talk about that today and then a whole lot of other things like your success that you've had over the last year in your business. But let's start with your story. How did you end up as a copywriter? Brittany McBean:   Yeah. Sometimes I'm not even sure if we're being honest. I hear there are two paths and one was incredibly nonlinear, and this was not their background, or they were in a marketing agency and they saw who made the most money and they went and did that. So I'm more of the nonlinear path. So, my degree is in musical theater. That's what I went to school for. I always say that I have a degree in singing a high C and kicking my face. And I love that. That was my passion for a very long time. I acted professionally after that for about three years, just in different theaters, around the country, professional theaters and some touring. And I just got exhausted. Burnout is going to kind of be a theme throughout this, but I loved it. But it is really hard, like always traveling in a van or a bus or getting paid $250 a week and having to have another job and rehearsing for eight hours a day and doing a show at night or two shows a day, all that stuff. I loved it. But I also knew that I wanted a family more than anything else. And I was going to move to New York and do the New York thing. And I had a boyfriend in Richmond, Virginia, and I came here instead and then left him immediately and stayed in Richmond. And I loved it here. And I started working for a regional theater in their education department and writing curriculum and creating programs and all of that stuff. And then ended up leaving that job. It just was not a great fit. I nannied for a while after that because I've always loved kids and families. And while I was nannying, I was feeling very creatively bored and I had a lot more to offer. Even though that work was like exhausting and fulfilling, I just wanted to do something. And this was back in 2014 when there was not a lot of network marketing on the internet like it is now. Nobody was popping into my DMs asking me to do a group or a party or anything like that. And a friend of mine was doing network marketing. I liked her a lot. I respected her. I was like, "This looks fun and different." So long story short, I did network marketing for five years and I was pretty successful. I got to like the 0.08% of my company. And I had a large team of women. And about a couple of years in, I was looking at my leaders who are telling us to do this stuff that just felt really gross and spammy. And I was like, "No, if I'm going to do this, I'm going to do it my way." And so I started finding a way of marketing on social media and sharing myself and my story in a way that sold products. And I did a lot of teaching and then reverse engineered that and taught that to my team. And what's been really cool and really interesting is looking at a lot of the trainings that I did and that over the years really align with all the things that I'm learning now. There are just a lot more smarter people who put better words to them, but it's really like validating to be like my instinct was really good. So I'll fast forward even more. I quit nannying and went full time with my network marketing business, ended up getting really, really, really burnt out. Like just really burnt out and really over it. And I was looking for something different. I started doing some social media management and realized I hated that, like I hated that. So I thought, "Okay, I'm good at this. I'm going to do social media coaching." And I did social media coaching and I was only coaching people on messaging. They were like, "How many times a day should I post?" And I was like, "Yeah, I'm going to email you that, don't worry about that. Let's talk about like your brand and what makes you," you and all of the stuff that I learned by showing up on social media, sharing my story, and making an income by teaching and educating. But while I was doing the social media coaching, a project came across my desk basically, and it was supposed to just be social media. And I looked at her whole brand and she had really, really big goals and a ton of content out there. And it was not up to the level of, I guess, where she was in her career and where she wanted to go. And I just kind of was like, "I don't know how to write a website, but I honestly think I could be helpful. I really think I could do this and I could do it well." I don't do things that I don't really think I can do well, but the problem with that is like, I think I can do anything so that doesn't always work well. But I just was looking at her emails and her website. And I just felt like, "I think I know what you're saying. And I think I know what people want to hear. And I think I can help you say it." But I was really nervous to take a copywriting project, especially it was a big one and I had never done it before. So I had a friend, Brenda McGowan, she's a great copywriter. She's an email copywriter and Instagram strategist, and we were friends and we're talking and I just said, "Hey, if I take on this copywriting project, can I hire you to mentor me and just check all of my work and help me know what I don't know? Because I want to deliver a great product." This client, I didn't feel good about taking money for something I'd never done before without having someone helped me. So I brought her on and in the middle of this project, I'm literally like Brenda would say, "Okay, find three people to interview." And I would Google, "Why would a copywriter need to interview?" It was pretty on the job training. And then I just really, really,

Business coach and copywriter Ashley Gartland is our guest for the 192nd episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. No surprise, when it comes to helping other writers build a solid business, she knows her stuff. So we asked Ashley about a whole range of things, including: •  how she ended up as a writer and business coach •  what she does in her business today and the problems she helps solve •  what a “better not bigger” business looks like and how to create one •  a few of the business models that help copywriters grow a better business •  what Ashley does to help free up more time for clients •  her “marketing audit” and what it involves for her clients •  what copywriters starting out can do to build a “better not bigger” biz •  what happens when people hit their goals and what comes next •  growing a team and what you should think about as you scale and grow •  how to grow a business WITHOUT a team •  how Ashley deals with overwhelm and getting things done •  the tools that Ashley uses to get things done •  what her team looks like and how she spends her time today •  the packages she offers to her clients •  what you should do if you want to do more copy coaching •  the mistakes Ashley sees copywriters making and holding them back •  what she’s done to take her business to the next level •  the pitch that got Ashley on our podcast and why it worked •  the difference confidence makes in so many of her client’s businesses We also asked about the future of copywriting and what to do if you want a “bigger and better” business. This is a good one. To hear it all, the play button below. Or scroll down for a transcript. Better yet, subscribe and never miss an episode.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Ashley's website Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground   Full Transcript: Rob:   This episode is brought to you by The Copywriter Underground, the place to connect with hundreds of smart copywriters who share your ideas and strategies to help you master marketing, mindset and copywriting in your business. Learn more at thecopywriterunderground.com. Kira:   What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes and their habits then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work. That's what Rob and I do every week at The Copywriter Club Podcast. Rob:   You're invited to join the club for episode 192 as we chat with business coach Ashley Gartland about creating a business that is better not bigger, what business challenges copywriters struggle with the most, her advice on managing time projects and overwhelm and the pitch she sent us that made us want to have her on the show. Kira:   Welcome Ashley. Rob:   Hi Ashley. Ashley:   Hi guys. Thanks so much for having me. Kira:   Yeah. Great to have you and I am excited to talk about the pitch that you sent us because it did grab my attention at least, and you kind of played the long game too as far as building a relationship on Instagram first and I just felt like it was very an elegant approach to pitching podcast. So we'll talk about that, but first let's start with your story. How did you end up as a writer turned business coach? Ashley:   Yeah. So really I have to say that though the way I landed here and the way I got into business by myself in the first place, entrepreneurship, is because I had this really strong desire to have a career that served my life. And when I graduated from journalism school I didn't see a lot of options out there that matched what I envisioned for my life, which was a lot of autonomy, a lot of choice in terms of how my days looked and also where I wanted to live in the country and those things. And so I decided that I would just give it a go and I would see straight out of college how to be a freelance writer and it went really well, and I came down to Portland, Oregon drove down here, started building a life here and business here and did that for about eight years. And at that point I felt like I had done a lot of the things. I had this big goal list, I checked a lot of those boxes off and I kind of didn't know what was next and so that began a process of asking what was next and what I realized eventually after a lot of soul searching was that I was kind of already doing the thing that I loved, which was mentoring other business owners. And I just didn't know that it was like a legitimate career path until I started to dig in a little bit deeper and once I realized that I realized I had a whole second chapter I could move into, where I still get to use a lot of my writing skills to be quite honest, but now I get to coach and mentor other business owners who want to build that better than big business, that business that serves their life. Rob:   So tell us more about that. What does your business look like and what kinds of coaching do you do? What are the problems that you help people solve? Ashley:   Yeah, generally for me... so I'll start with my business. So my business is a really simple kind of solopreneur with a little bit of extra team support type business where I'm a service based business owner, just like your audience. And I'm really looking to run a business in about 25 hours a week to do really, really fulfilling work, to have a lot of choice and freedom and autonomy, and that's what my clients are coming to me with. The problem for them is generally that they've reached a certain level of success in their business, but things feel pretty chaotic behind the scenes and they recognize that there are opportunities to scale, but they know they can't scale on the way that they've been doing before because it's just not sustainable and it's not in service of their life. So when I'm working with my clients I'm really looking at how to intentionally design the business for the kind of life that they want. We're looking at how to get really great systems and support teams in place to allow them to free up their time, to do either more creative projects, more client work, or just to work less and then we're also looking at the marketing piece and how to do less better there. Kira:   You mentioned the better than big business. Can you talk more about that terminology and what you mean by it and how you start to break that down along with your process for working with clients, how that all feeds together? Ashley:   Yeah, absolutely. So it's so interesting as so many things in our businesses this really came straight from my client's mouth. I was on a series of calls and so my clients kept coming to me and saying I don't want the million dollar business, I don't want the agency model, I don't want the massive team, I don't want to be the manager of that. They're like I just want a really simple streamlined business that serves my life and that's where that idea of this better than big business came up. And so I started talking with my clients about it and realizing that the way that we were building their business was different than this massive pursuit of fast growth. It was about really pursuing growth that matched their definition of success and about going after it in a really sustainable way. So it wasn't about overwhelm, it wasn't about hustle, it wasn't about burnout, it was really about pursuing again their goals, their definition of success and in a way that really served their life. Rob:   So can we talk a little bit more about what that looks like because I think it's really easy to envision a business that's continually growing, it's bringing in more revenue, maybe you're bringing on a couple of employees a year. But what is a business that is better, but not necessarily getting bigger look like, does it mean more money? Can it mean more money? Is it staying the same? Ashley:   It absolutely can mean more money. It doesn't have to be anti-growth, but it is about pursuing that growth and again in a really sustainable way. So instead of just chasing after the next level or pursuing another revenue stream, it's always about questioning and making sure that it's in alignment and then creating the systems and the support and the infrastructure to grow in that way, so you can do it in a way where you're not burning out. Kira:   Can we talk about how that breaks down for you. Let's say if we're working together and I'm the client and I'm trying to figure out, I'm feeling overwhelmed, I'm feeling burnout, but I'm not quite sure how to fix it. What does your process look like and what are some of those questions you're asking to move them forward and give them a clear idea of what they could build? Ashley:   Yeah. So honestly, the process so often starts with the services because as you guys both know your services impacts so many things from your revenue to your schedule, to the systems and tools that you need to the support you need in your business, so I really like to start almost all of my clients with looking at their services and figuring out what's not working. So for a lot of my clients that generally is that they're trading time for dollars, or they're doing custom proposals for each people and none of those things feel very sustainable for their business. So from there we can look at the business model and we can break down what would be a really... what would be a shift in their services that would allow them to grow in a more sustainable way. So for some people that's moving from the time for dollars approach to more of a product high service. And for some people they're moving from a done for you to a done with you model, like copy coaching. There's a couple of things that a couple of my clients have pursued that and done it really successfully. Or it might be that they're doing, you know, they want to pursue something like intensives,

Copywriter Kaitlyn Parker is our guest for the 191st episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. We got to know Kaitlyn a bit better at this years IRL event where she took more than 35 pages of notes, recording the most important ideas and tactics that the speakers shared. We asked her why she did that as well as a lot of questions about how she's grown her business. Here's most of what we covered: •  how she turned a social media gig with LuluLemon into her current role as a copywriter •  what she does to make social media effective for her business •  how often she posts on instagram (and the size of her audience) •  how to make “copy” posts work on visual media like Instagram or Pinterest •  whether hiring a photographer for social images is worth it or not… ROI? •  how Kaitlyn comes up with the images for her brand •  her process for helping clients develop and dial in their brands •  the packages and deliverables she offers to her clients •  how her prices have evolved as her business has grown •  what her client relationships look like—retainers versus one-time projects •  how clients find her… it’s not all from social media •  the #1 thing she’s gotten from attending live events •  her biggest take away from TCCIRL and the speaker who made the most difference in her biz •  how she manages her time and projects (and the tools she uses) •  what she thinks the future of copywriting looks like If you've ever struggled to effectively capture your brand on social media, you won't want to miss this episode. To hear it, click the button below, or download it to your favorite podcast app. Readers scroll down for a full transcript.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: TCCIRL Sage Polaris Mike Kim Kaitlyn's website Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground   Full Transcript: Kira:   This episode is brought to you by The Copywriter Underground. The place to find more than 20 templates, dozens of presentations on topics like copywriting, and marketing your business. A community of successful writers, who share ideas and leads, and The Copywriter Club newsletter, mailed directly to your home every month. Learn more at thecopywriterunderground.com. Rob:   What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts? Ask them about their success and failures, their work processes and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work, that's what Kira and I do every week, at The Copywriter Club Podcast. Kira:   You're invited to join the club for episode 191, as we chat with copywriter, Kaitlyn Parker about her career path, the importance of branding and social media in growing her business. Why she took 37 pages of notes at TCC in real life, and the process she uses to get crystal clear messaging for her clients. Kira:   Welcome Kaitlyn. Rob:   Hey Kaitlyn. Kaitlyn:   Hey, I'm so happy to be here. Thank you. Kira:   Yeah, we're excited that you're here. We met you at TCC in real life in San Diego. Kaitlyn:   The timing of that was just wild. I don't think any of us knew that it was going to turn into all of this. And here we are, barely have left our houses since then. Kira:   Yeah. Who knew? Craziness. Okay, so Kaitlyn, let's kick this off with your story. How did you end up as a copywriter? Kaitlyn:   Yeah, I feel like most copywriters, it was kind of accidental. I always loved writing and had a personal blog for years. And then after college I was an English major and then post-college, I had an outside sales job. Did that for a bit, but it was in recruiting and I just didn't love it. So I ended up actually working for Lululemon, and I was managing the social media, and marketing, and the community, divisions of the store as we were opening quite a few different stores in the area, and I really loved it. And people would be like, "Oh, that caption was so clever," or "That was so good". And I didn't even really realize at the time that what I was doing was copywriting. And I later went through a master's program in strategic communications and some of our textbooks and stuff like that were actually like Gary Vaynerchuk's Jab, Jab, Right Hook, and books like that, that all of a sudden, it was this light bulb went off where I was like, "I could get paid to write and I could merge all of these multi-passionate interest of mine and work with brands." So I really just kind of started pouring myself into the discipline of copywriting. And the first course that I found on it was actually one by digital marketer. And then I later enrolled in copy school and went through a rebrand and just kind of steamrolled since then. Rob:   Can we, by talking about your social media experience. Because you have social media dialed in and it's something that I struggle with. And I think it's something that a lot of copywriters struggle with. What are some of the secrets that make social media work and what do you have to be doing so that it's effective? Kaitlyn:   Yeah, I guess the biggest secret to social media is actually taking the time to develop and create content and then kind of plan it out. It can be so hard when you're just sitting there, on a random Thursday and you're like, "I need something to post and I have nothing". So I'm back at Lululemon, I would kind of organize and schedule photo shoots for our store when we would get in new product. I just had a spy, like a Canon Rebel and kind of taught ourselves how to shoot and edit. I mean, very, very amateur, and this is nothing like hobbyist photographer or anything like that. And that was so helpful because we were able to immediately show the new product that we were getting in the store and allow ourselves to generate traffic coming in because people were able to see it outside of just the stock photos on the website. And then when I spent some time at a marketing agency, I managed our client's social media department where we were mainly doing Facebook ads and stuff. I always made sure that we had folders full of content and images. We were constantly sourcing for that. And allowing ourselves to just have the material to work with and then kind of put a strategy in place. So I've tried to approach my own business that same way by investing in photo shoots a couple of times a year. So even, I mean this year alone, I think I've worked with maybe three photographers just depending on what I was looking for at the time or what I needed. And I try to make the photos that I receive from them just really stretch. Like I don't receive those and then post a photo from that photo shoot every single day. I try to intermix it with graphics, with sharing about client work, with taking some of my own photos, even using the occasional stock photo. And that allows a photo shoot, which can otherwise get really expensive to last a really long time, and makes me feel like I can spend a little bit more time having fun with the copy, instead of stressing about what the heck I'm going to put up on my feed. Rob:   I'd love to dive into this a little bit more, because I can see, and I think myself, it would be really easy if I'm selling products because I can take photos of products or if I'm doing say personality brands or I'm connecting with designers. There's some obvious things there for social media, but if I write, say in the health and wellness space and I'm writing about vitamin supplements or, I'm writing in the tech space and it's software. And it doesn't necessarily translate so well to the visual strengths at least of Instagram and Pinterest, things like that. What would you suggest for copywriters that are in those spaces, how they can create a really engaging feed in social media? Kaitlyn:   Yeah, that is definitely the tricky part, I feel like for copywriters, which is why so many copywriters tend to avoid it, because we're so word heavy. And then when you're just only posting graphics, sometimes it can feel hard to show the personality behind the brand a little bit. So what I'll do even with my brand messaging clients, is I'll spend a little section of that document on their content strategy and on their content marketing, and we'll kind of break out what their content pillars are. So what are we even talking about and how are we taking this voice that we've just developed and making sure that it's consistent for our audience, like they know what to expect from us? So mine, for example, I will share client launches and I'll show a screenshot of the website that I've put into a graphic using Canva. And I rely pretty heavily on templates. So for example, if a copywriter is going through a branding process right now, either ask your designer to help create a few social media templates for you that you can use, or there's tons on Creative Market and all over the place. That way you don't have to spend a ton of time on the design side. I have probably, I don't know, five or six different graphics that I kind of rotate between depending on the content. So I'll share copywriting tips because those have always been really popular with my audience, and I try to make them something that they couldn't just find from a quick Google search. Those are ones that I'll spend a little bit more time on. So I think knowing not just what the picture itself is going to be, but what is the actual subject matter of it. So I have those graphics and then I have wine posts to bring in the wine theme of my brand. I'll share snapshots from my office, because I work with a lot of designers and have things like interior designers for clients, so that stuff appeals to them. So I think it's different for every copywriter, but if you have a particular niche, bring in some of those lifestyle elements that are important to your potential clients, so they see that you value that.