The Copywriter Club Podcast

When it comes to building a copywriting business, there are lots of options. You can sell services. You can sell products. You can even create a platform. How about all three? Our guest for the 209th episode of The Copywriter Club podcast is Eman Zabi and we asked her all about her unique approach to her business—one that includes all three of these approaches to earning money. We talked about… •   an update on what she’s been doing the past 2+ years •   some of the “insane” ideas she’s pursued since our last interview •   why she made so many changes to her business •   the mistakes she made as she started building her team of 13 •   how one of her employees faked her father’s death to not get fired •   what it takes to manage a larger team (including how she pays her writers) •   what Eman’s copywriting projects look like today •   her advice to copywriters who are thinking about growing a team •   balancing business growth with mindset growth •   why Eman decided to create physical products (and the production process) •   the products Eman may create and offer in the future •   the “mom” test to prove the product would work •   embracing the hustle culture and seeing it for what it is •   the software platform she’s created and why she leaned into this •   the different approach Eman is taking with Terrain to set it apart •   what’s wrong with courses and why the industry is still growing •   the ingredients for a great course (and how Terrain helps make it better) •   how we’ve changed our own courses to help members finish them •   making sacrifices to accomplish more now •   feeling the pressure to do everything and how Eman dealt with it •   the reason Eman is willing to explore ideas most copywriters don’t think about •   why she wouldn’t change if she could do it all over again—except one thing This is the second time we’ve interviewed Eman and if you heard the first episode, you’ll be amazed at how far Eman has come. To hear what she shared, click the play button below. Or scroll down for a full transcript. You can also subscribe anywhere great podcasts are found. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Eman’s First TCC Interview Jereshia Hawk Linda Perry Jordan Gill Eman’s Card Deck Terrain Eman's website Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground   Full Transcript: Transcript is underway...

Mindset is a topic we touch on quite a bit—because a healthy mindset is the foundation for everything we do well as copywriters and in life… and an unhealthy mindset? We’ll that won’t take you anywhere good. Our guest for the 208th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast is Ian Stanley. Ian doesn’t call himself a copywriter any more (we talk about why) but he knows a lot about copy and getting people to respond to his offers. We asked Ian about: •   how he became a copywriter—a story of height supremacy, MLMs and Clickbank •   what charging $5 an email taught him about templates and processes •   some of the early investments he made and what he learned from them •   hand copying sales letters—and what you might want to do instead •   how to grow taller—Ian spills the “scientific” details of an offer he wrote for •   what Ian’s done over the past couple of years to fix his broken mindset •   his daily mindset practice, the two wolves he feeds and his tattoo •   what you’re responsible for—and what you’re not •   his ayahuasca experience—this one gets a little wild •   Ian’s experience with the afterlife or whatever it was that he experienced •   the gift of being human that the gods can’t experience •   the program he created to uncover deeper mental and emotional blocks •   building passive income and leveraging your work •   the stupid stuff copywriters do to mess up projects and client relationships •   the conversation that leads to agreements that pay royalties •   Ian’s experiment with media and what he’s trying to accomplish •   doing what 95% of competitors aren’t willing to do—to stand out Another episode you won’t want to miss. To hear it, you can scroll down and press the play button or download this episode to your favorite podcast player. You’ll also find a full transcript below. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Clickbank CopyHour The Talent Code Brent Charlton The Surrender Experiment The Untethered Soul The Untethered Soul at Work Confessions of a Persuasion Hitman Ian's website Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground   Full Transcript: Transcript is underway...

Getting things done—or getting MORE done—is a struggle for many copywriters including us. But systems and processes can help. Our guest for the 207th episode of The Copywriter Club podcast is systems expert, Jordan Gill. Jordan shared a ton of ideas for improving systems to help get things done and stop spending every minute on your business. It’s a message we definitely needed to hear—and maybe one you can relate to as well? Here’s what we talked about with Jordan… •   how she came to “love” systems even though she despised them •   the “launch-mageddon” that forced her to change her business for the better •   how systems give you more control and free you from anxiety •   whether people are born loving systems or whether they develop the skill over time •   how to use batching to get more done faster •   the role of discipline and creating structures that support your effort •   the “impossible” process of letting go and how to actually do it •   knowing your strengths and going all in on them •   how a team can help support your systems (and the systems you need before you hire) •   how she spends her time during a typical day and what her processes look like •   how her team spends their time to support Jordan each week •   the 4 Quadrants tool for determining what you should systemize or delegate •   our (Kira and Rob’s) own trust issues and how they impact getting stuff done •   how Jordan structures her VIP days—how she makes them work •   the importance of the right name for your VIP days—and other mistakes we make •   what Jordan does to balance work with real life •   the subscription boxes Kira—and maybe Rob—will be checking out If you struggle at all with systems and processes or getting things done, you’ll want to get this episode into your earbuds as soon as possible. Scroll down and click the play button to listen, or download this episode to your favorite podcast player. There’s also a full transcript below. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: The Copywriter Think Tank Jordan's website Melanie Duncan Deep Work by Cal Newport The Social Dilemma Strengths Finder Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground   Full Transcript: Transcript is underway...

Facebook ads are one of those copywriting deliverables that neither of us focus on in our business. But we want to know more. So we invited copywriter and Facebook Ad Specialist Sarah Sal to share what she knows about the dark arts of Facebook ads. Here’s what we talked about: •   how Sarah went from math and IT to writing Facebook ads •   the connections between the disciplines of math and copywriting •   the basics you need to know about the algorithm to write Facebook ads •   what elements (tactics) you should include when writing an ad •   the resources she looks for before Sarah starts to write an ad •   why you might want to encourage comments on your FB ads •   some of the changes that have some to FB ads in the last couple of years •   how she looks for the different angles that might appeal to readers •   changing ads versus changing strategy •   what Sarah has seen is the most effective kind of ad on FB •   the investments she’s made in herself to make her more effective •   how she structures her packages and why she doesn’t sign on for the long term •   the mistakes she’s made along the way •   what she’s done to land big clients—and how you can do it too •   Sarah’s experience in The Copywriter Underground •   cats To hear what Sarah shared—or the extra thoughts Kira and Rob added—click the button below. Or subscribe using your favorite podcast app. For a full transcript, just scroll down. ..... The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Sarah’s TCC Blog Post Sarah's website The Copywriter Accelerator Laura Belgray Perry Marshall Hootesuite AdEspresso Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground   Full Transcript: Kira:   Facebook ads are one of those copyrighting deliverables that neither Rob nor I do. We've run ads, but it's not our specialty. That's why we invited Sarah Sal to be our guest for the 206th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. Sarah is one of our founding members of the Copywriter Underground, and one of the most active members in that group, which is why she was also our Mole of the Month, which is one of our most active and engaged members. And we call her Mole of the Month because most of our members, not all of them, refer to themselves as moles, as in the rodent. Sarah's always entertaining in the group and talks frequently about her cats, and pizza, and entertains all of us, as you'll see in this episode. And this conversation with Sarah gave us plenty to think about when it comes to running our ads on Facebook. Rob:   We'll get to our interview in just a second, but first we want to tell you that this episode is brought to you by The Copywriter Think Tank. That's our mastermind group for copywriters, content writers, brand strategists, anyone who is ready for the training, coaching and support that they need to grow their business to, say, $200,000 or more. This is the only place where Kira and I provide one-on-two strategy sessions and coaching designed to help you achieve more than ever. If you're interested in learning more about the Think Tank, drop us an email at rob@thecopywriterclub.com or kira@thecopywriterclub.com, and we'll tell you a little more. Kira:   Let's jump right into our interview with Sarah. Hey, Sarah. Let's kick this off with your story. How did you end up as a Facebook ads strategist and copywriter? Sarah Sal:   Curiosity, like a cat that is looking for trouble. Facebook marketing, copywriting have absolutely nothing to do with my background. I studied computer science in university and then I studied applied mathematics. And I really enjoyed research in math. I actually, for my thesis, wrote nearly 200 pages of math theorem, formula, proof, and so on. And at some point, I was. I'm going to do a PhD. I really enjoy math. It's really like meditation for me. But then, I realized once I started that I love math, I love research in math, I didn't like academia and the job opportunity, and asking for grant, and so on. So, I fall back on my IT and study computer science, and I worked in IT for a while. Then, over 10 years ago, it was when Facebook ads started working and everyone was talking about Facebook ads like it's the future. So, I started learning about Facebook API. I even joined a few hackathon in Berlin, some of them organized by Facebook, and I won some prizes. Then, one thing lead to the other because you cannot talk about Facebook ads without marketing. So, I started taking course like Perry Marshall's Facebook Marketing course. And before I know it, I'm here and I write a lot of article about Facebook marketing. So, that's for Facebook marketing. Copywriting, people often tell me, "Hey, Sarah. We really love your copy. You're a good copywriter." And the reaction, "Am I really a copywriter?" This despite having articles, some of the best publication like Copyhackers, Copywriter's Club, and so on. But the thing is more curiosity, because if you do Facebook marketing, Facebook marketing never live in an ecosystem and it's all with zero interaction with the rest of the world where user is. So, for me, copywriting was curiosity, how could they improve Facebook marketing by learning something that has nothing to do with Facebook marketing. And that's how one could be a good marketer, not only focusing on a very narrow specialty. It's curiosity. Rob:   Yeah, I love the combination of those two things. That makes a ton of sense. Before we get into Facebook ads and what you do for your clients there, I'd really like to know a little bit more about how you see what you learned in math and science, and how that applies to what you do as a copywriter and a Facebook ad strategist today. Are their connections? Sarah Sal:   Of course. Of course. Because marketing is dipping your toe into the water and there is a discipline of mathematic or artificial intelligence called... I'm trying to remember the name. I know the French name. [foreign language 00:04:47]. Machine learning. Machine learning in English. And it's basically you try something. If you make mistakes, you correct it. If you do something that is good, you're keeping the same direction. Same thing with marketing. There's no secret formula. It's this, this, this, this and have some feedback loop that allow you to improve on what you learned, on what you do. Kira:   Sarah, you mentioned that you started about 10 years ago with Facebook ads and Facebook ad marketing. What was that moment when you felt like you made it or like, "Hey, I know what I'm doing. This is my thing"? When was that moment for you and your business? Sarah Sal:   I think sometimes you go through life, and then like, "Oh, am I really a Facebook marketer. Oh, do I do copywriting?" And if you enjoy something, you just do it, and then you're like, "Oh, okay. Is it really 10 years? Maybe I need to start thinking about Botox?" I don't say there is a problem, a moment. It's just like life. You don't go from zero to hero overnight. It's something you build slowly. And before you realize it, you look back, "Oh my god, am I really that known and famous?" And even people who jump on calls with me said, "Hey, I googled your name. Oh my god, you're everywhere." And I'm like, "Okay, okay." So, yeah. Sometimes it's good to be modest and not be like, "Hey, I know everything I made. I'm the best," because then you never learn. If your mentality is I know everything I made, I have nothing to learn, then, candidly, you stop learning and then you stop getting better, and you stop being good at what you do. Rob:   Okay. So, I want to take that seriously for a minute, because there are definitely things around Facebook ads that I can learn and get better at. And that probably includes everything. Tell us, Sarah, what is it that you need to know or do to get started writing and doing Facebook ads well? Sarah Sal: You need to forget about that algorithm. There is an unhealthy obsession and people forget they're talking about human being. It's nearly like a marketer every day that are rubbing a lamp and begging the genie, "Oh, genie. Tell me what's new with Facebook algorithm today that is not what was yesterday." And they forget it's interruption marketing. You're talking to a human being. You're in Starbucks. You cannot just walk to somebody and say, "Hey, do you want to make more money? Hey, do you want to pay less taxes? Hey, do you want to get rid of back pain?" Because people would look at you strangely and say, "Who you are?" Nobody you have a conversation with, a friend or a conversation that's so interesting that the person next to you will turn their head, and they would say, "Oh, okay, I need to put my book down, my latte down, and listen in." That's like the biggest mindset shift, I would say. Kira:   Yeah. Let's talk more about the copy side of writing Facebook ads, because it's something that I've never specialized in. And even now, with the Copywriter Club, I feel like we throw our ads together last minute, and there could always be a lot better. So, can you just talk through for copywriters listening, if they're writing Facebook ad copy for their own business or for their clients, what are some of the elements that we should include and think about and what should we avoid, beyond what you just mentioned about the mindset shift, and making it conversational, like you would, in a coffee shop? But what are the actual tactical changes we can make? Sarah Sal:   Yeah. Number one, a good ad doesn't look like an ad. No one join Facebook to read ads. So, that's very, very, very important. Number two, Facebook is interruption marketing, and you need to think of Google versus email versus Facebook. And that's a big mistake. Copywriter, for example, make Google somebody look for a product. It's just demand fulfillment. And just raising your hands, "Hey. Hey,

One of the “options” for copywriters who don’t want to limit themselves to solely writing for clients is creating and promoting their own products. And for many of the copywriters who take this path, it’s very lucrative. Our guest for the 205th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast is Justin Goff. Justin has created his own offers and in this interview he talks about how you can do the same thing. We also talked about: •   how a gambling debt he couldn’t pay led to his first online product •   his over-the-top reaction to his first ever online sale of $149 •   what he learned working in the gaming niche (as a student) that still helps him today •   the one thing you need to do to be a better copywriter •   how he landed his first few clients as he got into copywriting •   the terrible-horrible-no-good-very-bad-week that led to his first real success •   how he came up with the Big Idea that launched a 23 million dollar business •   reverse engineering a product to find your own Big Ideas •   the ins and outs of partnerships and how to make one work •   what he’s done to overcome his own money mindset issues •   the only thing that matters when it comes to dialing in a successful offer •   Justin’s advice for raising their prices—what he’s seen that almost always works •   why he believes in masterminds and what he gets from them •   the “have to apply” email trick that keeps his readers engaged and reading •   what he learned about knowing your audience from Tinder dates during quarantine •   how he guards his time to get more done •   why he bothers to dress up whenever he’s around potential partners and clients •   the future of copywriting and how to make sure you’re set up to take advantage We say this a lot, but this is another don’t-miss episode. To hear it, click the button below. Or subscribe wherever podcasts are available. Scroll down for links and a full transcript.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Patriot Greens Stefan Georgi No B.S. Wealth Attraction by Dan Kennedy Adam Bensman Sam Woods Justin's website Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground   Full Transcript: Rob:   There's this thing that tends to happen for a lot of copywriters, not all of us, but many, where they ultimately decide that they don't want to work with clients anymore. And at that point, they create their own products instead of helping other people sell their products. It sounds easy, right? But if it were easy, everyone would be doing it. Today's guest, on the 205th episode of The Copywriter Club podcast, is Justin Goff. Just after the worst week of his life, Justin created his first product and earned a little over 100,000 dollars in three months, and then he did it again, earning millions. If that sounds like something that you'd like to do in your own business, then this episode is for you. Kira:   We'll share Justin's story in just a minute but first, this episode is brought to you by the Copywriter Underground, a private membership and community designed to help you hit your business growth goals faster, whether your goal is hitting 10K a month or launching a new service or product, or even just finding your first few clients, the resources in Underground can help with accountability, support, coaching, and a path to help you get out of your own way and build momentum in your business. Find out more at thecopywriterunderground.com. Rob:   There are a lot of ways to succeed as a copywriter, working directly with clients is one and creating your own products is another. Let's jump into our interview with Justin and hear how he has used copywriting to create his million-dollar business. Justin Goff:   I initially got into kind of making websites when I was in college, as the result of I had a $1,200 gambling debt when I was in college, I was probably 20 at the time. And so I was a really good sports better in college. I'd bet on college football games and college basketball games. I would make good money doing it. And then like a lot of kids, my age, I got really cocky and thought I was better than I was. And ended up betting a lot more money than I had. And one weekend, I basically had the weekend from hell where I lost like seven or eight of the games I'd bet on. I basically, went from being up $5,000 on this season to down $1,200. And this guy who I bet through, it was this big bookie who was like six foot eight named Gabe who weighed like 280 pounds and Gabe wanted his money two days later and I did not have that kind of money, so. Kira:   It sounds like a movie. Justin Goff:   It's like Rounders part two. So yeah, I owed this guy a bunch of money and I'm trying to figure out how I'm going to pay him. And I had this bright idea that I could make a website and sell my sports picks. I knew nothing about making a website, knew nothing about selling stuff, but I'd seen other people doing it online. I'm like, "All right, I can do this." Long story short, basically about six months of that, just pounding my head against the wall in spamming forums and trying to figure out how to sell these picks, nothing ever worked. And then about six months later, it was around Christmas time, I remember, because I was at my parents' house for Christmas break. And I got on my email account and I noticed I had a PayPal notification and I remember opening it up and seeing that someone had spent $149 to buy one of the pick packages I was selling. I remember just going like absolutely crazy. I was like jumping up and down, screaming and running around the room. It's funny because I've had days where I've done 200, $300,000 since then in sales and I still remember more about that day and that $149 sale than anything. Because that was kind of the first time that it became real to me because kind of up until then, it just seemed like this pipe dream. So that's kind of what got me into it and I kind of weaseled my way into affiliate marketing after that and kind of learn the ropes of that. So I did that for a few years and then basically around 2009 or so. So I was doing affiliate marketing for a bunch of poker websites and gambling sites and then all that fell apart in like, '08, '09 because there was a law that was passed that you couldn't play poker online anymore in the United States. And I decided to get into fitness health, info-product stuff. I'd seen all these people make info-products and selling them. I was like, "Oh, let's do that." I kind of recently had gotten into the CrossFit and paleo stuff and this was kind of before it really blown up and really gotten big. I was like, "Oh, there's probably a big market for this, for people who don't really understand this." So I started creating a product around that and that's the first time I kind of really learned about copywriting. Because I tried for about a year and a half to do this on my own, selling it with a super boring sales page that was just features and benefits and almost like an eCom style page and nobody was buying anything. And my business partner at the time, who was the personal trainer, who was kind of the face of the product, he had been using direct response on his gym that he ran and he kept telling me about direct response and I was just very closed off to it. And finally, he gave me this big box of Dan Kennedy tapes and he's like, "Just watch this." He's like, "Just watch this, I think I will change your mind." And I finally plopped in one of his copywriting DVDs, it was like nine hours unedited Dan Kennedy. And by the end of it, I was just like, my world had kind of been shattered. I was like, “Oh my God, now I see what he meant now I understand why these ugly ass websites with yellow highlighter and 40-page sales letters work so well.” And that was kind of the first foray of the copywriting. Kira:    Okay, so I want to know Gabe, did you pay him or did you get beat up by Gabe, what happened with Gabe? Justin Goff:   No, so basically after about three days of that, I had to make an emergency decision to get a job as quick as possible. And I started valeting cars literally like two days after this and worked out a payment plan with Gabe to pay him back over the next two weeks. And no, I did not get my legs broken… Kira:   Okay. It'd be a good story though if you did, but I'm glad you didn't. So what are some lessons from your time gambling? I didn't realize because I hadn't heard that part of your story before. What have you learned from gambling that has helped you in life and business? Justin Goff:   So, the interesting thing to me is actually when I got into more business stuff, the kind of rush that I got from gambling stuff was very, very similar, except it's in a much more controlled environment now. So when I would do big media buys and spend $20,000 on an email drop and it would come back and we'd make, let's say $30,000, I got that same kind of excitement and that same rush, but I had 10 times the control over it compared to gambling where it's like you're kind of just looking for these slight edges all the time. One of the things, honestly that really turned me away from it, because I was actually pretty good at it, was the stress of it was just way too much. And in a way, your business can be the same way, especially if you get to the point where you're just the absolute workaholic who's working 12 hours a day and nothing else in your life matters. That's kind of the point I got to, I treated the gambling like it was a real job. I was studying stuff and creating all these models and putting 30, 40 hours a week into it while it was like a full-time student. But I mean, the dedication definitely pays off because it helped me in that. And then it obviously helped me in copywriting as well. Because those first couple of years that I was learning to write copy,

Too many copywriters have a limiting belief around how much they can charge for their services, so our guest for the 204th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast is Jereshia Hawk, a high-ticket sales coach who shared how we can overcome that mindset issue. But that’s not all we talked about. We also covered… •  how she became known for helping clients increase high-ticket sales •  how her “engineering” approach shifts her thinking about products, problems and failure •  overcoming objections—after the sale •  why she carves out an hour on Monday’s for “superthinking” •  her thoughts on building a team (and our role as an “employee” of your company) •  what a personal performance review should look like (questions you can ask) •  the zero sum budget approach to goal setting •  how copywriters can overcome the idea that they can’t make a lot of money •  the first steps toward building a high-ticket offer (like as much as $40K or more) •  the simplicity rule that can instantly help you sell more •  the POP method that helps you synthesize your offer and audience •  her “champagne closer method” that completely changes a sales call •  rethinking the free content you provide and what it has to do •  the one metric everyone with a business needs to know

How do you attract clients to your business? That’s one of the subjects we covered with Jenn Robbins, the guest for the 203rd episode of The Copywriter Club podcast. Jenn is an expert on funnel strategy and shared the three types of funnels every business owner should have—not right away, but eventually, if you’re going to grow. But that’s not all we covered, here’s a partial list of what we asked Jenn… •   going from 80 hour weeks in accounting to blogger to copywriter •   why freelancers often fail before things work the second time around •   feeling like a fraud and what they says about you •   overcoming the imposter complex—a recurring theme on the podcast •   how Jenn has mixed services with other offers in her business •   making a retainer work—really work—for 9 years •   Jenn’s process for making VIP days work—and her check in “trick" worth stealing •   the 3 basic funnels every business needs •   what she does to make sure her funnels engage her prospects •   her rates—what she charges her clients for the work she does •   the list building challenge she’s sharing with her audience •   the stuff she struggles with in her business •   the biggest changes she’s made to grow her business •   how collaboration has changed Jenn’s mindset as her business has grown •   what she does when things don’t get done as planned •   what we’re really doing as copywriters—it’s not writing words •   what to look for in a course or mastermind before you join Jenn is doing so many things right in her business, you’ll definitely want to hear what she shared about how to do it. To listen, click the button below. Or subscribe on iTunes or Stitcher. And coming soon to Spotify (hopefully). Prefer to read? Scroll down for a full transcript. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Tanya Geisler Sage Polaris Joanna Wiebe TCCIRL Tarzan Kay JennRobbins.com WTFchallenge.com Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground   Full Transcript: Transcript is underway...

What kind of a business are you building? The guest for episode 202 of The Copywriter Club Podcast is Amy Posner. Amy’s the first person to be interviewed on the podcast three times—and no wonder—she’s got a lot to share. Amy’s currently rethinking the programs and services she offers her clients and we thought it might be worth talking to her about the process. We talked about all of the following: •   the agonizing journey she’s been on as she’s changing her own business model •   why the process has been so painful and pulling back on doing too much •   the three questions she’s used to figure out what to do next •   overcoming the desire to hide behind other brands •   the new products and services she’s working on creating as she pivots •   the missing career path for freelance copywriters (and how to find it) •  what it takes to be a great copywriter—we all take a stab at answering this •   the process of getting perspective on your own business •   the questions to ask as you think about niching •   what to add to your proposals so clients want to say “yes” •   3 questions to ask before you decide to raise your rates •   why having someone copy chief your writing makes you better •   how to up your client-finding game to land dream and anchor clients •   a strategy for pricing your work to capture the value you create •   some of the benefits that come from acting like a trusted partner •   what keeps Amy engaged and growing •   the third mind and how to get it in your business This conversation with Amy is perfect if you’re thinking about a pivot or change in your business. To hear her advice, click the button below. Or subscribe on iTunes or Stitcher. And coming soon to Spotify (hopefully). Prefer to read? Scroll down for a full transcript. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Joanna Wiebe Kirsty Fanton Amy's website Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground   Full Transcript: Transcript is underway...

He’s one of the few copywriters who truly doesn’t need an introduction—Parris Lampropoulos is our guest for the 201st episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. Parris spoke at both of our TCCIRL events in New York City—and it was a discussion at our event that led to this interview. rather than interview Parris about his life, we talked to him about his mentors and what he learned from them. Here’s a sample of what we covered: •   his advice to “newbie” copywriters about who to learn from •   how a fist through a window led to a job as a real estate sales manager •   the “gun to the head” trick for making sure prospects want to get your marketing •   why you need to make theater part of everything you write •   Parris’ copywriting reading list—and why you should read each book 3X •   what he looks for when he’s doing research—his I didn’t know that list •   the mentor who was a former marine with a vulnerable side •   the way most people listen—and how to do it right for better writing •   taking notes on index cards to easily assemble and re-order your copy •   looking for hidden benefits—hot buttons—to share in your copy •   the best—most heartfelt—gifts we’ve ever received from anyone •   the baptism by fire Parris got when he started writing for Mark Ford •   the criticism sandwich that Mark Ford used to get Parris to write better •   the copywriting lesson Parris learned from watching Joel Silver thrillers •   why Parris prowls the stage like a predator when he speaks •   the comparison technique Parris used reading Clayton Makepeace’s copy •   the “you’re doing X anyway, why not get Y” technique that makes you tingle •   the people he spends time with and those he runs “like hell” away from •   how he uses the lessons he learned when he mentors is own copy cubs •   the 3 things you need as a copywriter to make sure you succeed •   the “Bruce Springsteen” process that guarantees you get a good idea As we mentioned in the intro, Parris may be the best copywriter working today. You do not want to miss this episode—even though it’s quite a bit longer than usual. To hear it, click the button below. Or subscribe where better podcasts are shared.  Or scroll down for a full transcript.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: TCCIRL The Copywriter Underground Gary Halbert How to Make Maximum Money in Minimum Time The Amazing Direct Mail Secret from a Desperate Nerd in Ohio Influence by Robert Cialdini Gary Bencivenga Trust Me I’m Lying by Ryan Holiday My Life in Advertising by Claude Hopkins Scientific Advertising by Claude Hopkins John Carlton Made to Stick by Chip and Dan Heath Ted Nicolas Agora Bill Bonner Mark Ford Gene Schwartz Joel Silver Bo Eason Clayton Makepeace How to Write a Good Advertisement by Victor Schwab Dan Kennedy Jay Abraham Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Accelerator Intro Outro   Full Transcript: Transcript is underway...

It’s time to celebrate… we’ve reached episode 200 of The Copywriter Club Podcast. This episode marks a tweak to our format and an update to the music we use. And to help us celebrate the changes—and our anniversary—we invited copywriter and marketing consultant Mike Kim to share his story and what he’s learned over the last several years of his career. Here’s a recap of what we covered: •   how he went from marketer to blogger to copywriter •   the importance of professional-grade production—spoiler: it’s not •   the #1 thing you need in your content to get traction •   simplifiers vs. multipliers (and where Mike, Rob and Kira fit in) •   what he did to find his first clients and what he did next •   the present-negative/future positive reason why he left a high-paying CMO role •   the impact copywriting had on sales (when he was a CMO) •   what Mike would do differently if he had to start over •   his personal “code” for investing in coaching, courses and contractors •   the big risks Mike has taken throughout his career (and the results) •   why confidence is a sucker’s game and what you need instead •   Mike’s “made it” moment where he realized things would be fine •   the role mindset has played in his success—particularly his thoughts about money •   Mike’s advice for raising your prices today—he calls it scope-creep insurance •   his experience at TCCIRL as a speaker and attendee •   the one thing he attributes his success to—this might not surprise you •   his prediction for what will happen in the marketing world in the future Mike is a phenomenal copywriter (and human) and this interview is one you won’t want to miss. To hear it, click the button below. Or subscribe on iTunes or Stitcher… and soon on Spotify. And if you prefer reading, scroll down for a full transcript. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: The Copywriter Accelerator Michael Hyatt AWAI Jeff Walker Think and Grow Rich by Napoleon Hill The Big Leap by Gay Hendricks Business Brilliant by Lewis Schiff Mike's website Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Intro Outro Full transcript: Kira:   What does it take to stand out like a snow lynx in a bowling alley and get noticed in today's crowded marketplace. Okay, assuming you're already a good writer and you can serve your clients well, which we can assume because you're listening to this show, how do you actually get people to see that you're extraordinary or extra, extraordinary? If you want it to be extraordinary, you can't do the things ordinary people do. We know this. So you need to take the type of risks others refuse to take. You need to think and act differently from everyone else. Today on the 200th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, which we're celebrating with lots of Coke Zero, barbecue chips, and peanut butter cheesecake. Rob:   So good. Kira:   We're speaking with one of my D.C. neighbors and new friends, Mike Kim. Mike is much more than a copywriter. He's a former CMO and current podcaster, coach, public speaker, and brand strategist. But maybe, most important of all, Mike is the kind of person who takes the type of risks that can launch an extraordinary career. Rob:   We'll get to all of that in a moment. But first we need to tell you that this episode is brought to you by The Copywriter Accelerator. The Accelerator is a 16-week business growth program designed to help copywriters figure out not only what makes them extraordinary, but also how to be the kind of business or how to run the kind of business that can scale and attract the right clients. This isn't a course, something that you buy and forget in your downloads folder. It's a program that you work through with other students as you master your business mindset, your X factor, your signature package as you price and create processes, work on client management, even branding and getting in front of the right clients. If you're ready to stop dabbling and get serious about building a copywriting business that's set up to grow, go to thecopywriteraccelerator.com for more details. Kira:   I first connected with Mike shockingly on a podcast. After five minutes of prepping for my big interview with Mike Kim, I knew we'd be buds. We both lived in D.C. We both played basketball back in the day, and we're both kind of tall. So obviously, a perfect recipe for friendship. So Mike and I hit it off, and I invited him to attend TCC In Real Life in San Diego. He took me up on the offer and flew out to the West Coast for the event, and I'm really glad I invited him because we didn't see what was about to happen next. Rob:   Even though he only showed up as a guest, Mike ended up being the first speaker at TCC IRL, which we've started calling the last event held in America. As coronavirus started spreading across the country, a few of our speakers canceled during the week prior to the event, but we were still moving forward with the event because canceling it at the time didn't make sense to us either. So we were wondering how we were going to even kick off the event after losing our keynote speaker and a couple of others, and that's when Kira checked in and with Mike. Kira:   I asked him, "Hey, Mike. Could you possibly keynote at TCC IRL?" Literally a day before the event, and Mike says, "Yes." He's thrilled to speak on our stage, and he'll pull together his presentation within 24 hours. When his time came to grace the stage, he totally rocked it. I knew he was a seasoned speaker beforehand, but he was even better than I imagined. Not only funny, but full of wisdom and business advice that our room needed to hear. Then he didn't stop there. Mike hung out with us the entire event and even stayed out pretty late in the morning with us as we had our final social time before the world would shut down. It would have been easy for Mike to turn us down or even not fly out to San Diego with uncertainty looming in the air, but he took a risk on us, and he showed up and stepped up. That to me is extraordinary. Rob:   Yeah. Mike has a habit of saying yes to the right opportunities and doing the things that help him stand out from the crowd. So let's go to our interview with Mike Kim. Kira:   Let's start with how you ended up as a copywriter. For people who don't know you and never heard of you, how did you get into copywriting? Mike:   So, I always kind of had a knack, I guess, for writing, and I didn't discover copywriting until after I made the decision to start a blog. So I bought into this blogging/platform building program, and there was a module taught by this guy, who we all know, Ray Edwards on copywriting. That was like the first time I'd really ever heard of copywriting as a profession or even really as a concept. I remember watching this really budget video from him, and he was teaching this stuff, and I was like, "Oh, I get it." All of a sudden, I just bought like 10 books on copywriting, and I studied it, and I loved it, and I realized I've known this my whole life. I just didn't know what to call it. That's really how I got started. While I was building my platform, my blog, I quickly realized how important writing was to it because there's not a single thing that you can do in that industry without writing. That's really how I got started. I discovered it, and I was like, "Oh, that's what I've been doing all these years, writing album covers and stuff like that, liner notes. Oh, that's copywriting. Oh, cool." And I got it. Rob:   I want to ask about something, this is maybe something a little bit weird to pick up on, but you called the video that you're watching a budget video, and I'm guessing that it was probably like kind of recorded off the cuff. It wasn't professionally done. The reason that jumped out at me is because you look at what Ray does today. That's definitely not his brand, and yet, however long ago it was, that's what he was doing, and I think a lot of us wait way too long until we're perfect at the thing that we're trying to do to launch, and most of our mentors didn't do that. They didn't wait. They launched. Maybe you've probably seen something like that in your own career, I would imagine. Mike:   Oh yeah, I didn't record my first professionally shot videos in a studio until a year ago. So for seven years, I just recorded videos off my MacBook camera, and I did entire launches using that camera. I think, Rob, this goes back to copyright. If you just have a really good copy and really good content, it keeps people engaged, and they get value from the video, and that was it. Yeah. So I'm not a big tech/app/gearhead kind of guy. I'm just like, use what you have. The simpler your tools, the more likely you're going to use them, and I still kind of follow that till this day. Rob:   So can I ask a follow-up to that then? If it's not the production, what is it about what you need to bring to your video or to your audio or to the content you're creating in order to help gain traction? Mike:   I think that it just needs to be very easily understood. So it's been said that there are two types of multipliers. I don't know if you guys have heard this, but one type is a simplifier, and the other is a multiplier. I am 1000% a simplifier. Right? So when I teach content, I'm just like, "How do I make this so easy that I don't need notes to teach?" I feel like if I need notes to teach content on a video or even from stage, then I'm probably making it too complex, too convoluted, too meaty, and especially on the format of video these days with people's attention spans. I think it's been proven that the longest an average adult will watch a video is seven minutes. That's the average. So you're going to have people who are way more than that, and you're going to have people who are way less than that. But this comes from a friend who's an educator.