The Copywriter Club Podcast

We’ve been lucky to be mentored by several copywriters and marketers over the past few years. We met one of our mentors—Brian Kurtz—when we interviewed him way back in the beginning days of The Copywriter Club. He’s our guest, for the second time, on the 219th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. We asked Brian about his stroke, how he’s changed his business this past year and a lot more, including: •   using excuses to NOT do what needs to be done •   how Brian predicted COVID with changes he made to his business •   retiring from all the things you don’t like to do •   Brian’s massive stroke and the impact it had on his business •   the legacy Brian wants to leave to future generations •   what he’s learned from the greatest copywriters ever •   why copywriters need to own their own media •   the different ways businesses have pivoted over the past year •   the different “clicks” on the dial that solve your client’s problems •   what he’s learned by starting a membership community •   his strategy for getting his members to renew each year •   what it would take to have a career like Brian’s today •   why Brian—the strategic schmoozer—hates networking •   the persuasive reminder that Brian keeps in his wallet •   how he implements reciprocation into everything he does—and why •   the “ask from nowhere” that doesn’t work and how to avoid it •   his advice to anyone going through a serious challenge right now •   givers and takers and where they land on the success ladder It was great to take a few minutes to catch up with Brian. To hear the interview, scroll down and hit the play button. Keep scrolling for a full transcript and links to the things we mentioned. And, of course, you can subscribe with your favorite podcast app to make sure you never miss an episode. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Brian’s book: Overdeliver overdeliverbook.com CoCo Dan Kennedy Gordon Grossman Robin Robins Stefan Georgi’s RMBC Influence by Robert Cialdini Give and Take by Adam Grant Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground   Full Transcript: Transcript is underway...

One of the things that keeps waaaay too many copywriters from achieving their goals is fear. Which is a little odd because it’s not like our work puts us in dangerous or risky situations. We’re not fighting fires or facing down bad guys. And we’re not standing on a trapeze platform high above the ground, mustering the courage to jump. But that’s a very real situation that Annie Bacher, our guest for the 218th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast has experienced. She told us about it—and the lesson it holds for copywriters everywhere—in this interview. We also talked about: •   how she went from writing about Argentinian circus artists to writing for clients •   the “fear-less” lesson Annie learned from her trapeze artist that changed her outlook •   the importance of the early career feedback Annie got from her first boss •   the “what not to do” lessons she learned in her first copywriting job •   the catalyst for leaving her job and going out on her own •   why doing your own thing doesn’t mean you’re working on your own •   the different ways Annie has grown (and changed her biz) over the last year •   how cutting down on what she does has made business more enjoyable •   when Kira and Rob feel the “fear” in their work •   lightning decision jams and how she’s made them part of her business •   a framework for brainstorming solutions to sticky problems •   how you can create a workshop offer for your own business •   the “big promise” for the client when they participate in an LDJ •   the kinds of clients who are best for a workshop like the LDJ •   Annie’s experience in the Copywriter Think Tank—what she likes most •   what she’s struggled with in her business •   the advice she would give to Annie from a few years ago •   what we thought about the LDJs that we experienced •   why it’s okay that nobody has it all figured out This is a great interview packed with ideas you can use in your business. To hear it, scroll down and click the play button. Keep scrolling for a transcript. Or download this episode to your favorite podcast player. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Bird by Bird by Anne Lamott Annie's website Miro The Copywriter Underground Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group   Full Transcript: Transcript is underway...

When it comes to creating the belief that you can deliver what your clients need, or that the products and services you write about will deliver a real transformation, nothing works better than a good demonstration. Our guest for episode 217 of The Copywriter Club Podcast is film maker and story teller, Jude Charles, who loves to talk about his formula for demonstrating proof. We covered a lot of ground in this interview, including… •   how Jude became a brand strategist and story teller •   why he wrote 11 “books" about his future life and whether he got it right •   using 10 year blocks to figure out where he is going •   the teacher who gave him a set of business cards and kicked off his career •   how he struggled to earn a few thousand dollars and the moment he almost gave up •   the difference between perspective and vision (and getting the right lens) •   figuring out the marketing and sales process to land better clients •   what copywriters should do to help clients understand what they can deliver •   what we all wanted to be when we “grew up” •   why sales and marketing doesn’t end when a client hires you •   what Jude covers in his roadmapping sessions—the stories he’s looking for •   how Jude uncovers the hidden stories his clients should be telling •   the differences between telling stories in copy and video •   coaching clients to understand that what they share is actually interesting •   why strategy is such an important part of what copywriters do •   why a film maker came to our event TCCIRL, then wore a cape the following year •   what it takes to raise your prices from hundreds to tens of thousands of dollars •   the confidence folder—and how Jude uses it to boost his performance •   the moments in his life that led to big leaps in mindset and success As usual, this episode is definitely worth a listen. Scroll down to find the play button… and a little farther to find a full transcript of the interview. But what you really should do is subscribe on your favorite podcast player so you never miss an episode. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Stefan Georgi Ramit Sethi Ben Settle The Promo Jude Made for Us TCCIRL Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground   Full Transcript: Kira:   David Ogilvy once wrote that visual demonstrations are effective because they help visualize your promise. They save time since you don't have to talk about what your product does, you can simply show it, and they are also memorable. But too many copywriters miss the chance to demonstrate the impact of their products and services, or their client's products. Our guest for the 217th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast is Jude Charles. Jude is a brand strategist, storyteller, and filmmaker who's passionate about the power of demonstrations and visual proof. Rob:   But before we dive into the demonstrations and proof, this episode is brought to you by The Copywriter Underground. That's the membership community designed to help you create a more successful copywriting business. As a member, you have access to more than 60 hours of insightful training, group coaching calls, copy teardowns and reviews, weekly creative exercises, and our exclusive print newsletter mailed directly to your home. Go to thecopywriterunderground.com to learn more. Kira:   This is actually our second interview with Jude, the first one was lost when we had a technical glitch. So, we're thankful that Jude came back at all to answer our questions all over again. And with that, let's jump in. All right, so, Jude, let's start with your story. How did you end up as a brand strategist, storyteller, and filmmaker? Jude Charles:   So, I have always been interested in storytelling. From a very young age, eight years old, I wasn't the kid that would be outside playing basketball or football, even inside the house, I wasn't the kid that played video games. Instead, I would lock myself in a room after school and I would write. And what I was writing was these 100 page books of what I thought my future life would look like. So, I wrote books like The Police Life of Jude Charles, because growing up, I wanted to be a police officer, and The Baseball Life of Jude Charles. But in all, I wrote 11 books. Kira:   Oh my God. Rob:   So, more details here, what was The Police Life of Jude Charles like? Then, how developed were these stories? Jude Charles:   These stories were pretty developed because I was thinking 20 years into the future, so even though I was writing it as an eight-year-old child, I was writing it as if I was 28. Rob:   I love this. Jude Charles:   So, for me, it was just like, what could my future life look like? If I became a police officer, if I became a baseball player, what would that look like? And so, I wrote 11 books. And then, I got into high school, and in high school, I took a TV production class. And the teacher, Mrs. Donnelly, she taught me everything that she knew about video production. And then, at the end of the school year, she looks at me, she says, "Judy, you're really, really talented at this, you should start a business." Now, I'm the last of 10 children, no one in my family are entrepreneurs. My dad was a construction worker, my mom worked at a chair factory. And so, being an entrepreneur, I had no idea what that meant. But by the following day, May 5, 2006, I'll never forget it, she comes into the classroom with a yellow envelope, she hands me the yellow envelope, and I'm like, "What is this?" She's like, "Look inside." And when I opened up the yellow envelope, inside of the yellow envelope was my first set of business cards. And that's literally how I got started as an entrepreneur, as a filmmaker at 17 years old, starting a business. Kira:   Wow. Okay. Just a couple of questions about the 11 books that you wrote, over how many years? You started writing these books when you were eight, did you finish all 11 in a year, or a month, or was it spread out? Jude Charles:   It was from the age of eight till about 12 years old, I wrote consistently throughout those years. There are 11 books, but some of them were volume one, volume two. There was a book I had called From Boyhood to Manhood, and this was a story about me growing up with my best friends, who I'm actually still friends with to this day, and that had three different volumes. I think The Police Life of Jude Charles maybe had two. So, it was just repeated books, but different volumes of what I felt like the future would look like. Kira:   Did you write one where you became a filmmaker? Jude Charles:   I did not. I wrote one where... I think From Boyhood to Manhood, I ended up running a security firm. Obviously, The Police Life of Jude Charles, I became the sheriff. Baseball Life of Jude Charles is based off of the Jackie Robinson stories. So, I think I ended it at a certain point, but none of them were me becoming a filmmaker at all. Rob:   And do you still have the books? Are they in a box in the basement somewhere? Jude Charles:   I do still have the books, I still have all 11 of them. Because I've been doing podcasts regularly, I've been asked if I still have them, and I actually dig them out and start reading them. So, it's pretty fascinating to see some of the things that I wrote. Rob:   I think you should throw these up on the Kindle store, and we can all take a look at them. Jude Charles: (laughing) I'll give that some thought, I'm not sure. It is mind blowing the things that I was writing at that young of an age, but I don't know that I'm willing to be that vulnerable and just share that entire thing with the world. Kira:   Is there anything else that you predicted at that young age that came true, or maybe surprised you as you've looked back? Jude Charles:   There isn't anything, I think it's just surprising to see how developed my mind was, and the things that I was saying in the books, that's what surprised me the most. Other than becoming an entrepreneur that I had predicted, there wasn't anything else that I had predicted at that age that actually happened. Rob:   So, I love how future centered you were at that age, and I'm curious, now, looking back, do you do the same thing, do you project out? And maybe you're not writing it out in a book, but are you thinking, this is where Jude Charles is going to be 20 years from now the 48 year old, the 58 year old version of Jude Charles? Jude Charles:   Yeah. So, I like to think in 10 year blocks, and so I do try to think like, what will my life look like 10 years from now? When I first started the business in 2006, I always said I'd give myself 10 years to get to a point where I feel like I'm successful. And if I'm not successful at 10 years, I'll just call it quits. I don't want to keep this going if I'm not making any money, and I don't want to be the music artist that just keeps going even though they haven't had a hit record or a label sign them. And so, for me, I always think in 10 year marks… I'm at a point now though, it is very hard to think about what the next 10 years looks like. Obviously, starting a family and getting married, and doing different things like that, but it's hard to think. Because at some point, I've always thought that I would walk away from video production, or walk away from filmmaking, and it's hard to think what that would look like, what would I do next? Because this is all I've ever known for literally, almost 20 years of my life. Rob:   Or you're going to be a policeman, you'll be the sheriff. Jude Charles:   I might be a little too old for that by then, but we'll see. Rob:   Okay. So, going back to your story then, you got the business cards, and then what? What did you do to find clients, to start to create the kinds of videos? I'm sure what you were doing then,

Writing copy with personality is hard. So what does it take to do it? We invited copywriter and brand ventriloquist Justin Blackman to talk about how he does it for the 216th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast—and to give us an update on everything he’s done since our first interview with him way back in episode 59. If you’re looking for ways to write with more personality, this interview is for you. Here’s what we covered: •   a recap of what he’s done in his business for the past 4 years •   how he doubled his salary a year after leaving his full-time gig •   how important building his authority was—and the result •   when it’s time to move on to the next thing in your career •   recreating your job/career as new opportunities arise •   what it takes to build the confidence to move forward •   taking on big challenges as a way to grow your authority and business •   the investments Justin has made in mindset •   how Justin’s ego kept him from writing his best work •   Justin’s advice to anyone who feels like they aren’t as far along as they should be •   how to write with more personality—the formulas that work •   how to figure out your own unique voice •   why so many voice guides are useless and what to do instead •   Justin’s WTF framework and how it captures the 3 parts of brand voice •   the things we’ve done in our businesses to change our mindsets •   Kira’s brand strategy guides and what they include •   the program he’s created to help others write with personality •   how he gets everything done—it starts with working on his own stuff first •   how to have fun while working as a copywriter •   his tattoo story—this goes back to what he said about ego getting in the way As usual, this is a great episode you won’t want to miss. Scroll down and hit the play button, or scroll a little farther to read a full transcript. Or download the episode to your podcast player. Better still, subscribe and never miss an episode. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Episode 59 Never Lose a Customer Again The Go Giver TCCIRL Linda Perry Lianna Patch Abbey Woodcock The Codex Persona Ian Stanley Liz Painter Prerna Malik The Big Leap by Gay Hendrix Justin’s website The tattoo video Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground   Full Transcript: Rob:   Writing is hard, but writing with personality or perfectly capturing the personality of your client is even harder, but that's what Justin Blackman does. Justin is our guest for the 216th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. He stopped by to share how his business has changed since the last time that we spoke in depth about the Headline Project way back on episode 59. Kira:   Before we do that, this episode is brought to you by The Copywriter Underground, the membership for copywriters of all experience levels who want to invest in their businesses and grow. As a member, you get more than 60 hours of video training courses on marketing your business, improving your copywriting skills and fixing your mindset so you're set up for success. Learn more at thecopywriterunderground.com. Rob:   Okay. So let's jump into our interview with Justin. Kira:   Let's kick this off. My first question I even wrote down was, dude, what have you been up to the last year? Question mark. Question mark. Question mark. Because I feel like you've taken off. And I don't think it's just me because we talk about you and we say good things in our circles, and I feel like you just have, I don't know, like you just are doing the right things and it's paying off and you've put in a lot of hard work too that is worth acknowledging. But it just seems like you're doing really well. And so I am really excited to hear about what you've been doing, the changes you've made, and how it starting to pay off for you too. Justin:   See, I think that's the fun part because the last couple of months, it doesn't seem like it's been the hard work. It seems like the years leading up to this have been the hard work. And now, when everything shut down and I was like, "I need to figure out what to do." I said, "You know what? Now I can have a little bit more fun." And that's when I embraced the fact that there weren't a lot of people talking about just the silly things that I was talking about and writing with the style and the weird techniques and things that I do, because there really was a structure behind that. And I just wrote an email saying, "You know what? I'm going to keep it light." And I made it fun. And then at the end of the email, I broke down exactly what I had done above it. And people wrote back to like, "Yes, more of this. I had no idea that there was actually a science behind this. Tell me about this process." And then I started talking more about that and just having fun, literally not knowing what to do, not feeling comfortable to sell anything because of just the whole economic situation. And that created the course of Write More Personality-er, which was even just a placeholder joke name. I actually don't like that name at all because grammatically it bugs me. I was just having fun, and I put some stuff out just to see... really just for entertainment value, just to take people's mind off of everything. And that's really what set the wheels in motion for everything that I'm doing right now. Rob:   So before we get to all of the things that are going on in your business, I think maybe we should take a step back. You've been on the podcast a couple of times before this is you're certainly competing for one of the people that we've had on the most. You've talked about a lot of the things that you've done in the past, the Headline Project and your work with the hotel and some of the other stuff that you've done, but maybe we could just recap because while it does feel like you're everywhere and we keep seeing you pop up in a lot of different places, we know because we've seen the behinds, that there's been like this progression through your career, as you've built your authority, as you've developed the pathway that you've followed, we've seen what's happened. Maybe you could give us a short recap of some of that stuff. And then we can talk about the particulars, how you've partnered with people, the training that you've done, the events that you've attended, that you've spoken at, how you've grown your authority, and really look at what you've done almost as a case study for what copywriters who might want to do the same thing as you should be doing. Justin:   I could do all that in case there's one or two people out there that don't know who I am, I imagine that there are a lot more than that. The background was, I was working in-house at a international hotel company and I was writing for like 14 different brands at the same time and just pumping out a lot of different content. I had taken a couple of different writing courses. And I was a decent writer, I'd say it was better than average, but I didn't necessarily identify as a copywriter at that point. I invested in the first round of the Accelerator in the beta program, you guys ran me through the gauntlet clip with the Headline Project where I wrote 100 headlines for 100 days for 100 companies, which came out of an idea through Kira in the hot seat. And that's what put me on the map. I eventually got recognized about a year after that by an agency that was creating Facebook ads, long form Facebook as an email series for coaches and consultants. They needed someone that could write in multiple different styles and voices. And without even realizing that I was able to do it, I took an assignment with them just as a test and made it fun. They had a very lighthearted style, but I was able to emulate it really quick. Some of that also came through the Codex Persona, which was a training that I'm now a co-instructor, but because of that really unique skillset that I had developed without realizing it, I nailed the project. And he told me afterwards that I was the first person in four years that ever nailed it on the first try. So I went with that confidence. I left the hotel company, moved to create a Pretty Fly Copy as it's really is its own entity and took on the agency is my first retainer client. And my first year, I wound up doubling... My first year as an official copywriter and freelance slash business owner, I wound up doubling my salary from the hotel company. Over the course of two years, I've written for more than 329 different people, realized that I didn't necessarily want to continue writing the Facebook ads and emails, but I was able to figure out that the consistent process that I had with being able to sound like different people was my superpower. The being able to nail voice was something that I could do better than pretty much any other writer that I had come across. And it took a long time for me to be able to say that as confidently as I can now. I'm still not entirely comfortable with it, but I'm starting to own the fact that I'm pretty darn good at voice. And now, I've moved forward with training other people on that process. And in addition to just the voice, I also have broken down all the techniques that I've stolen from all these different people and from my background studying comics and comedians and improv, and combine it all together now. And I love working with copywriters to teach all this stuff. Kira:   All right, cool. Yeah. Let's talk about doubling your salary because you just slipped that in there, but that's a big deal. You left your full-time gig at the hotel, went out on your own and doubled your salary. It sounds great and wonderful and probably anyone listening is like, "Huh, how do I do that? I want to leave my job and double my salary." Are you just a unicorn and it's just you Justin,

What does it take to build and maintain a great community? We’re not sure we’ve got the answers, but we thought we should talk about it with The Copywriter Club’s Community Manager, Brandon Burton. For the past year, Brandon’s had an insider’s view of everything that happens in our free Facebook group as well as our private (paid community) Copywriter Underground group. Brandon’s influence in both groups has made these communities better. Here’s a bit about what we talked about… •   why he left a comfortable sales position to become a copywriter •   how he leveraged a multi-month parental leave to start his own business •   the blog he launched that turned into his first community •   what it takes to be a good sales person—and how to sell ourselves •   why he is re-branding his business (and the process he’s using to do it) •   the mistakes introverts are making in their businesses •   what he did early on to get his foot in the door and find clients •   what Brandon struggles with in his business •   Rob and Kira’s thoughts on being introverted and getting out there •   what he does as the community manager of The Copywriter Club •   the ingredients that make a strong community •   what you can learn in the right community—even if you’ve got a lot of experience •   where the opportunities in social media are right now •   the scary thing Kira’s doing outside of business right now •   the future of copywriting as Brandon sees it This is a solid episode you won’t want to miss. To hear it, click the play button below. Or scroll down for a full transcript. Don’t forget to subscribe on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: The Copywriter Club FB Group Brandon’s website Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground   Full Transcript: Transcript is underway...

Building a successful business isn’t easy… but it should be simple. That is, you don’t need to do “all the things” in order to make a living. In fact, a minimal approach may help you grow in ways you don’t expect. Our guest for the 214th episode of The Copywriter Club is marketing minimalist Ellen Yin. She shared her formula for running a simple, but profitable business and a whole lot more. Here’s a bit of what we covered: •   how Ellen became a marketing minimalist •   the basic systems you must have in order to succeed •   the purpose behind your social media use •   the problem with adopting someone else’s marketing strategy •   her simple marketing system that keeps her sales system going •   how she takes prospects through her sales process, step by step •   how she maintains a 70% close rate on six month contracts •   the differences between marketing services and products •   the mistakes you might be making using hashtags on instagram •   short term vs. long term marketing efforts and why you need both •   having help to support your “lazy” marketing efforts •   how to borrow someone else’s audience and connect authentically •   when to build your own audience and when to borrow •   the state of the union on Instagram—what’s working and not •   the basics of marketing on instagram—you don’t have to do all the things •   striking the right balance between products and services •   the steps to take to reach a big monthly income number like $10K •   the “hidden funnel” that takes less work for getting/retaining clients •   why she shared her quarterly income with her audience •   how she finds the gold in bad investments in courses and coaches •   batching and the impact it has on her days •   the options for investing… mindset, skillset or network •   Rob and Kira’s “one thing” that has helped them in their businesses This is a good one—especially if you look around at all the things other copywriters do and think, “how are they getting it all done?” To hear it, click the play button below. Or to read what Ellen shared, scroll down for a full transcript. And of course, you should subscribe and leave a review if you enjoy this interview. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Ellen’s Podcast Hashtag Hacks Hira Usama The One Thing by Gary Keller Linda Perry Ellen’s website Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground   Full Transcript: Transcript is underway...

Among the copywriters we’ve had the pleasure to meet, there are a lot of former teachers who have gone from helping students learn history, math, and English and now help teach customers about products and services that meet their needs. Our guest for the 213th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast is Francis Nayan, a former teacher, now conversion copywriter specializing in emails. Francis told us about how he made the switch and what he’s doing now. Here’s what we talked about: •   the first hit of dopamine that led him to believe he could make a living as a copywriter •   what he did to grow his business after landing his first client •   his wild-west approach to finding clients and why it didn’t work very well •   the first big client that turned into an intense marketing training opportunity •   why he looked forward 6 months to figure out what to do next •   how he focused on better habits to build the business he wanted •   the tangible benefits Francis has gotten from the investments in his biz •   our first gigs—how we got started as copywriters •   being intentional about the business you are building—and doing it early on •   the habits Francis has adopted to get ahead—cold showers, 5 AM, lemon water •   the kinds of email packages he works on and what he charges •   what’s involved in creating email strategy •   email deliverability—what you can do to make sure your emails make it to the inbox •   dealing with the psychology of trimming your list •   the best subject line for your emails

Do you ever listen to what our podcast guests share and think, that’s not the kind of business I am building? Today’s guest for the 212th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast is Liz Painter. She has built a very “normal” copywriting business—one that probably looks a lot like your business. And there’s still a lot here that we can all learn from. Here’s what we asked her about: •   her path from journalist to email strategist and copywriter •   how copywriting and journalism are different and how to write better •   Liz’s writing process and formulas—and how it’s different from others we’ve seen •   the #1 thing she tries to accomplish in the email she writes •   3 different formulas for writing email sequences •   how Liz finds her clients and what she does to get referrals from clients •   what her business looks like today and how it all works day to day •   how Liz has networked herself into several agency relationships •   how she changes boundaries and processes when working with agencies •   her LinkedIn strategy and how it immediately to a new client and more connections •   the “comment first” strategy for finding connections •   going all in on one social media platform and not stretching yourself too thin •   Liz’s sales process—step by step—and how she makes sure to get a “yes” •   what Liz does differently from other clients—she definitely listens more •   the #1 lesson she learned from working with Copyhacker’s agency •   what Liz struggles with in her business—why it took so long to find success •   what she would do differently if she had to start over •   a list of books she recommends for personal improvement •   what she’s doing to save the bees with every project she works with This is a great interview with a copywriter who is doing a lot of things right. To hear it, click the button below. Or scroll down to read the transcript. Better still, subscribe with your favorite podcast app and never miss a show! The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Joanna Wiebe Amy Posner Better Proposals Philip Pullman novel Shinesty The Slight Edge by Jeff Olson Essentialism by Greg McKeon Personality Isn’t Permanent by Benjamin Hardy Life in Half a Second by Matthew Michalewicz The One Thing by Gary Keller The Big Leap by Gay Hendricks Liz's website & Instagram Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground   Full Transcript: Rob:   You ever listen to the guests that we talk with on the podcast and think, "Their business is nothing like mine. What they're doing is so different from other copywriters and I'm not really sure that I can learn anything from they're saying."? Well, our guest for the 212th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast is Liz Painter. She has a business like most copywriters and yet there are plenty of things that she's doing that we can all learn from. Whether it's her approach to LinkedIn, how she's worked with agency clients, or her sales process, Liz is doing a lot of stuff very successfully. She stopped by to share all of the details in this excellent interview. Kira:   We'll share our discussion with Liz in a moment. But first this episode is brought to you by The Copywriter Think Tank, our private mastermind group for copywriters and marketers who want to challenge each other, create new revenue streams in their business, receive one on two coaching from the two of us, and ultimately grow to 200K or more. The think tank is now open for a few select new members. If you're interested you can visit copywriterthinktank.com to learn more about this mastermind. Rob:   So let's get to our interview with Liz Painter. Kira:   Liz, before we hit record we were just remembering our time with you in San Diego way back in March when we got to stroll down the street leisurely with you and hang out with you in person and it just seems so long ago now. So I'm excited to catch up with you and hear more about what you've been up to since we last saw you in March. So why don't we kick off with your story, as we do, about how you ended up as an email strategist and copywriter. Liz:   Yeah, cool. Yeah, that does seem like a long time ago that we were in San Diego. Back in the day when you could be outside with other people and hang out. So yeah, my journey started out as a journalist. Straight after university I studied journalism and then I got a job at a newspaper and it was a really good grounding in, not copywriting obviously, but writing because you're in this newsroom and you've got the editor sat across from you. And if you write a really boring long intro to your story he's going to shout across the newsroom and tell you in front of everyone that it needs work. So you have to get good at it really quickly. So that was a really good grounding in how to write concisely and quickly and in a way that catches the reader's attention. And I did for a couple of years and what happened was one of the features writers went off sick and I ended up covering for her and I was doing a lot of the advertorial stuff where you're going out and interviewing business owners and writing about their business. And I really loved it. And that was kind of my first brush with copywriting, although I didn't really know it was called that back then. And then when I eventually left the newspaper and went freelance, my intention was still to be a freelance journalist but my husband was setting up a photography business. And so he'd be talking pictures for people and they say to him, "Do you know anyone that can write the website words or the brochure words to go with these pictures?" And he would point them to me and that's how I got into copywriting. And before I knew it I was doing that much more than I was doing the journalism. And then the route to email copywriting is probably quite a long one. I was a generalist copywriter for quite a long time. I just did what people asked me to do and didn't really question it for quite a while. And then it was probably around 2016, 2017 and someone I was working with pointed out how much I loved email and how passionate I was when I spoke about it and maybe that was the direction for me to go in. And that was kind of the start of the journey of narrowing down into just doing email strategy and copy. Rob:   I'm really interested in talking a little bit more about your journalism background. And particularly because we see I think quite a few content writers, copywriters come from journalism or from even an academic background of writing. What do you see are the biggest differences between the writing that you did as a journalist and the writing that you do today as a copywriter and especially with email? Liz:   I think you have a lot more freedom with copywriting to go in a number of different directions. Certainly for me writing news journalism, my creativity was quite limited. These are the facts of the story and you need to present them in an exciting way. But there's only so many different tangents you can go off on, whereas copywriting I feel like the world is your oyster to some extent. Obviously you've got to tap into what you hear from customers when you interview them but I do think there's a lot more freedom in it. In terms of other differences, I have more time to do the research I want I to do when I'm copywriting. Often with a news story it's quite quick. You just get to interview the person who's lost a relative or whatever the story is that you're covering and you've only got a few minutes really with them and then you've got to write the story then it's out. So yeah, I don't usually rush stuff like that with copy if that makes sense. Does that answer your question Rob? Rob:   It definitely answers my question. I think about ... Obviously there are some significant differences. And you focus in a little bit on the audience, how you get to know the audience better to do research better. With news, you're writing to a general public, maybe broader. But I'm also thinking there's differences in the way that the copy is presented between news and copywriting. It might be more story based when you're trying to connect with a customer as, like you said, going through the facts of the story and just trying to get things out quickly and you're not necessarily building the same kind of rapport. So yeah, long way of say yes, I think you answered my question. Kira:   You mentioned that when you were working in journalism and writing articles, if you didn't grab the attention of your manager fast you would hear about it and they would shout across the room to you. So what was your strategy for grabbing attention in the intro because I imagine you're using a similar strategy today in the email copies with the hook? Liz:   When I started, I was a year or two out of university and so probably still more wordy than I needed to be. And I think what the editor beat out of me was that kind of using more words than you need to. But what needed to be in that intro was essentially, who, what, when, where, why. The standard journo stuff but without putting any extraneous details in or anything boring and then immediately getting into the action. And I think that carries across with copywriting. You see a lot of throat clearing don't you? Especially in email where people are kind of warming up to what they really want to say and you're like, just cut the first three paragraphs and start right in on the action. I wrote a blog post about that recently actually and compared what we do to Elvis songs. Because if you listen to Elvis songs, he pretty much always goes straight in. Like there's very little intro. He's straight in with the lyrics. There's no kind of warmup. I think that's what comes from journalism. Rob:   So as you write emails for your clients, how do you think about the writing process or what does your writing process look like?

Retainers or projects? That’s a question a lot of copywriters ask themselves when they determine what kind of business they want to build. But who says you have to choose? Our guest for the 211th episode of The Copywriter Club is Brian Speronello who’s “Barbell Strategy” takes advantage of both projects and retainers to make his business stronger and more resilient. We asked him about: •   how Brian used a course to specialize and launch his copywriting business •   the “try it before you buy it” approach to buying a course •   a random bar encounter and the importance of taking first steps toward success •   what Brian would have done differently if he had to do it all again •   the tripod framework for deciding to go full-time as a freelancer •   how Brian was able to test-drive working for himself while holding down a FT job •   what it takes to make the leap into freelancing •   what Brian’s business looks like today—it’s half of his barbell strategy •   the limits of retainers and how Brian makes them work in his business •   the “Landlord Retainer” model that makes sure you always get paid •   the big fail Brian had when he agreed to work for royalties •   the legal clause he includes in all agreements to protect himself today •   our thoughts on Brian’s business model •   his process for getting clients to refer additional clients to him •   the investments he’s made in his business to “fill the holes” in his skillset •   the part we played in getting Brian to get his program ready to launch •   why he treats his own project as his fourth business client •   what the Lindy Effect means for the future of copywriting This is a great interview, full of tips and lessons any copywriter can apply in their own business. To hear it, click the play button below. Or download this episode to your favorite podcast player. Better still, subscribe and never miss an episode. And if you prefer to read, scroll down for a full transcript. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Ramit Sethi’s Earn 1K Upwork Kim Schwalm Justin Goff Stefan Georgi Alvaro Barrios Brian's website The Script Brian Talked about Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground   Full Transcript: Transcript is underway...

For the 210th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, Rob and Kira are guest-less, which means it’s just us, talking about what’s going on in our lives and in the club. Here’s what we covered this week: what we’ve done to create a routine during the “shutdown” an update on the new podcast format—what we think about the extra work what else we’re working on as we update other parts of The Copywriter Club how we’re trying to make everything we do more helpful for copywriters what we’re doing differently with our email today trying to create a better separation between work and “life” how we spend our “CEO” time and what we’re doing differently what we’re reading right now why you should ask Kira to do something crazy right now how we’ve adjusted our mastermind to virtual—and the success we’ve seen To hear what we shared on this episode, click the play button below or download the episode to your favorite podcast app. There’s a full transcript below as well. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Kirsty Fanton Liz Green Rosie Theresa Brandon Fina Perry Marshall The Copywriter Accelerator The Copywriter Think Tank Think Like a Monk by Jay Shetty The Big Leap by Gay Hendricks Ian Stanley Year of Yes by Shonda Rhimes Alchemy by Rory Sutherland Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground   Full Transcript: Rob:   Never a clever way to start when it's just you and me. Kira:   On a rainy Monday. It's raining here. I feel like I just want to curl up in bed, but instead we're going to start this podcast. And so, Rob, how are you? Rob:   I am doing great. Before we get into how we're actually doing, we should say, this is the 210th episode of the Copywriter Club Podcast, and if you're wondering why there wasn't a funny or story based intro, it's because we don't have a guest today. It's just you and me. And we just want to give a little bit of an update and maybe a review of what's been going on over the last couple of weeks. So then to answer your question, I'm doing great. How are you? Kira:   I'm good. I was just thinking it would be fun to do our new commentary that we've added to the last 10 episodes. If you all haven't noticed and add that to this episode, so we can add commentary on top of our commentary and just go really meta with it. Rob:   It could get a little meta. It also might get annoying. This is where we break in to say that was actually totally wrong, what you just said, Rob. Kira:   But we're jumping in here. It's been a while, I think, since we've really shared what we've been up to in our worlds and in the Copywriter Club and our copywriting businesses. So when you reflect back over the last few months, Rob, how are you dealing with world craziness, recession, all this stuff, COVID? How is your family doing? How are you doing? Rob:   At this point end of summer, middle of the fall, we're doing pretty good. I think we've figured out a routine. I was one of the lucky ones who, very early on, got the virus and I spent a whole week being kind of sick and very tired. Kira:   I forgot about that. Rob:   In fact, I was watching a video that we recorded back in April and I saw myself. I was like, oh my gosh, I look half dead. I look horrible. But yeah, we've gone through the school cancellations and summer, and then my kids are actually back in school at school. At least they've had one short break because the number of infections rose to whatever the level is that it hits and then they cancel school for a week or so. They've actually gone back now the second time and things are pretty good. Rob:   We do better with routine at my house, especially when it goes around school. My kids are older. I have teenagers. And so there's not a lot of supervision that needs to happen other than just sort of getting kids out of bed, which is a teenage challenge. I was that way, I think, when I was a kid and my kids are definitely that way, but yeah, I think we've adjusted our family life and are doing okay. How about you? You've got littler kids, so I'm guessing maybe some slightly different challenges. Kira:   Yeah, I think the spring was rough for so many people. And so I agree having, I mean, structure and schedules help with kids at all ages, and adults. And so not having that in the spring just was quite difficult. But starting this school year, knowing what was ahead for us with online learning in DC public schools, so we were able to plan ahead and just figure it out and figure out what it was going to look like. And so it's been going well for us with online learning. The first week was awful because we didn't have any help or support, so I have experienced how hard it is when you don't have support. And it's impossible. I don't know how parents are supposed to work and do online learning. It's just really difficult. Kira:   But we've been lucky enough to have some help with a bunch of other kids who come to our house every day. So we have a school in our downstairs with four kids total, and then we have more of a facilitator who comes in. I don't want to call her a babysitter because she does so much more than that. She's really helping the kids with online learning so that they make it to their classes on time from 8:30 until 3:15. It's been going really well since we have that support and we have other kids around, because the socialization really helps with them. And it's allowed me to finally work those hours without having to check on the kids and worry and feel stressed out the entire time. So that's been huge for running a business and having that space now in the fall, and has been such a game changer as far as my sanity levels. Just having kids who are happy now because it's working and they're learning and they're doing pretty well given that it's online learning. So I think it's as good as it could be right now in the current situation. Rob:   I think as we think about everybody who listens to this podcast, we know that there are a lot of people that are in different situations. Some people have great support systems, some people are lacking that. Some people have the school systems are open and others are trying to do homeschool. And I just, I think, as people have tried to figure out the way to move forward with their own situation, with their own family, it's just nice to know that there's a group of people here that are all sort of suffering through the different things together and we support you. We know that you're fully capable of doing it and we're cheering you on. Kira:   Yeah, definitely. It's not easy. All right, so other than that, we updated the podcast recently. Has it surprised you, as far as feedback on the podcast changes that we've made so far, or has it been what you expected? Rob:   I think it's probably been what I expected. We've heard from several people telling us that they really like the new format. Kirsty Fanton just emailed us this morning saying that she likes it. We've heard from others. I think it was Liz Greene, might be remembering this wrong, who said that it was the update she didn't realize that she needed. I was expecting that it would be better just because it gives us a little bit more opportunity to talk and to share some of the things that we know and do. But I've been gratified to hear that from people who have listened and just think that now that we're in this 10 episodes, maybe we're committing for a little while longer. I think when we announced the change and said, hey, we'll try it for 10 episodes and if it's not working, then we'll call an end to it. But I think it has been working. I do think my one concern was that it has made the podcast quite a bit longer, maybe 20 minutes longer per episode, which so far, nobody has said that that's too long, but definitely want to keep an eye on that, because we don't want to bore anybody and hopefully what we've done has improved the podcast. What do you think? Have you heard anything different Kira:   I heard people hate it. Rob:   Oh, no. Kira:   No, I haven't really heard much. I've heard a couple of positive comments. I wasn't sure how it was going to go with the first few episodes because you and I scripted it a little bit more, we scripted our commentary, and we were just getting into our groove with it. And so I think as we figure it out episode by episode, we get a little bit more clear on how we can add more value, add a little bit more of us, but also more value, so we're not just talking for the sake of talking and adding 20 extra minutes to every episode. So I think it will continue to get better and I'm just being patient with the process. But I do think it does satisfy that need that you and I had, where we felt like we were missing from the episodes for 200 episodes. It was great, and I've loved interviewing people, but I just felt like it wasn't really a dialogue. It was purely interviewing and putting spotlights on other copywriters, which is a wonderful thing. But I do think that we cut ourselves out of those conversations and we had more we wanted to say, so this new renovation has allowed us to share more of what we have learned and seen and observed from our own businesses and from other copywriters. And so it feels more satisfying to me now. I'm more excited about it. And I think it's just a good reminder that we're all in charge of our own business and we can make these changes, and even if something is you've been doing it for 200 episodes or more, you can always look at it and figure out how you can change it to make it meet your new needs and excite you more and become more fun. Because if it's not really that fun, I do think it's important to start questioning it, which we did. Rob:   It has added a lot more time to actually producing the podcast. You know,