The Copywriter Club Podcast

On the 229th episode of The Copywriter Club podcast, Selena Soo shares it all when it comes to publicity. During a difficult period, Selena began seeking information but found inspiration. Selena became a publicity strategist after stepping into the power of connecting others and helping people share their message with the world. If publicity isn’t something on your mind, it will be after listening in on this episode. In this episode, we cover: •   how to get your ideal client to find you •   why investing in yourself can change the game for your business and life •   the impact of hustle culture and seeking a balance •   when you include publicity, more eyes are on your core message •   the secret to building a strong body of work •   how to use being an introvert to your advantage •   why you need to clear on what you want to be known for •   what kind of media you should be in front of, plus how to decide on mainstream topics •   two techniques you can use to pitch yourself •   when and how to join the right mastermind programs •   why your body of work matters no matter the size •   the quickest, easiest way to amplify your message •   5 things you need to realize when it comes to mindset and pitching •   the truth behind being vulnerable online •   why sharing what’s important to you matters online •   if you’re showing up in any form of media, Selena shares what you need to have prepared New to publicity or maybe you never thought it was THAT important? Think again. You’re about to learn a thing or two from an expert connector. Hit play below! The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: TCC(N)IRL Event 2021 Free Video Series - Impacting Millions Program Selena's blog post about abuse Selena's free calendar Elizabeth Gilbert: Eat Pray Love Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground   Full Transcript: Kira:   Getting noticed by the right people is a talent. And while we've talked a lot about pitching on this podcast lately, I think we can all agree that life is so much easier when your ideal client finds you rather than the other way around. To get to that place in your business, it sure helps to have publicity, AKA other people sharing your thoughts and ideas on their platforms. That's something we can all use more of, right? Our guest for the 229th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast is publicity strategist, Selena Soo. She didn't waste any time helping us figure out what we should be doing to get more publicity for our business. And we think you'll get a ton out of this interview too. Rob:   We'll get back to our interview with Selena in a moment. But first, this podcast episode is brought to you by The Copywriter Club (Not) In Real Life, or TCC(N)IRL. That's our event for copywriters and other smart marketers who want to learn more from experts like Joanna Wiebe, Carline Anglade-Cole, Todd Brown, Jereshia Hawk, Joel Klettke, Eman Ismail, and more than a dozen others. But TCC(N)IRL is about more than just presentations, it's about connecting with other copywriters, helping you to form real relationships, true friendships, and maybe even a successful partnership with another copywriter. To learn more, visit TheCopywriterClub.com/TCCNIRL-2021. And if you don't remember that link, you can find it in the show notes of this episode on The Copywriter Club website. Kira:   Now, let's jump into our conversation with Selena. So why don't you kick off your story just, how did you end up as a publicity and marketing strategist? Salena Soo:   Absolutely. It actually started in my mid 20s when I had a quarter life crisis. I was clinically depressed, I was having trouble eating and getting out of that in the mornings. I reached such a low point that my mom flew from Vancouver, Canada to New York at the time, just to be by my side to help me get through life. And she would get on the subway and take me to work, as if I was like a little girl going to school. And I remember saying to a friend, "I just need to find a way to feel better. Do you know anyone who can help me?" And I learned about this life coach. And she would organize a women's group, they would meet every Wednesday, and so I started going to those. And I got exposed to these experts and authors and inspirational personalities. And that's when I realized that when people are struggling and suffering, they're not just looking for more information, they're looking for inspiration, whether they're someone that doesn't have a sense of life purpose, or they're just really dying to strike out on their own and create their own dream business, or maybe they are looking to heal their health or leave a toxic relationship. And I just really felt like the world needs more role models and there's nothing more powerful than these people that embody that message of possibility. And so I would ask my friends, "Have you heard of this person? And that person?" And they had no idea who they were. And so I just became really passionate about helping people that had an important message or product or service that they really felt like could help other people improve the quality of their lives and not to be that best-kept secret. And so I started just being this connector, even as an introvert, I just had this passion for helping people that I admired. And so I would put entrepreneurs that I followed in touch with each other or in touch with the media, and they would start to get these amazing opportunities. And so when I did launch my business, I had a lot of support and people that wanted to see me succeed, people that were willing to give me endorsements, so that's how my publicity business got started. Rob:   Can I ask, what were the very starting things that you did in your business? Because I think there's a lot of people who are listening to podcasts who have seen you or heard you elsewhere. You've got this program that's massive, that's huge, it's promoted by a lot of people, but you didn't start there. Where did you start? What was the first product or what was the first service that you started offering clients that really got you going? Salena Soo:   Yeah. The first thing that I did was offer PR retainer services, where I would work with clients one-on-one to help them land publicity. My first client, or one of my first clients ended up being a little bit of a nightmare client. I was being paid well, I was able to negotiate like a $4,000 a month retainer. And that was exciting because I'm like, "Okay, I just need two clients to essentially have a six-figure business." But what happened is, I didn't know how to create boundaries and assert myself, and I was getting pushed around by this client, and it just reached a point where I didn't even want any clients so I was like, "Yeah, I'm good. I don't need new clients," but I only had one person. And then I learned that a bunch of women that I admired, they were part of this mastermind group, and I didn't know what a mastermind was at the time, but I saw that they were hanging out and learning and supporting each other and they all had successful businesses. And so I got on the phone with a coach and by the end of the call, I was ready to sign up for a $27,000 mastermind. I just knew, and I know it's crazy to go from making $4,000 a month to be like, "I'm going to be in this $27,000 mastermind." But I knew that I was someone who was smart, that I was able to help people. I just didn't really have that plan to be successful in my business. But joining the mastermind, it taught me about how to create group programs now that I was in this really great business program. And so shortly after, a number of months later, I created my own publicity mastermind, was started at 9,500 for six months. And then when I did it for a full year, I increased the price to 24,000. So being in that mastermind paid itself off very quickly because it helped me create a new business model. I basically went from one-on-one work to then creating a mastermind. Kira:   So I know you lived in New York for a while. How many years were you in New York before you left? Salena Soo:   I was in New York for 18 years. Kira:   That's right. Yeah. So I was there for 12 years. I know our time there overlapped, even though we never met. Can you just talk about how New York rubbed off on you? Maybe for good or for bad, business-wise, lessons that you took away from your time in New York that have influenced you as a business person, and maybe even personally outside of business. Salena Soo:   Yeah, absolutely. New York is such a magical city, and I'm grateful that I went to college there and it opened me up to a lot of different opportunities. I would organize conferences at Columbia University and NYU where I went to school, undergrad and then business school. And so I got to interact with a lot of high profile people. I had people like Ariana Huffington speak at my conference. Pattie Sellers who had built Fortune's Most Powerful Women In Business brand so forth. There were a lot of opportunities there to be a connector and to connect with the media. I would reach out to people in the media who I didn't really know, but I would invite them to events that I was organizing. Like I would organize Champagne Brunches over the weekend with girlfriends and other people in the media, and the secret to creating events that people want to attend is basically having at least two anchor people that others want to meet, like this famous person is coming or this really cool person is coming. And so, yeah, it gave you an opportunity to build relationships. Not that you have to be in person, but it can be helpful to have that as an option. And then I would say like in New York, Elizabeth Gilbert, she talks about, in her book Eat, Pray, Love, how there is a word that encapsulates every city. I think for Rome,

On the 228th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, we’re joined by Eddie Biroun. Eddie is a conversion copywriter for e-comm and education brands and a forever learner of his craft. After fumbling into copywriting, he knew it was something he wanted to commit to for the long run. He became intrigued with understanding branding and what truly makes a brand stand the test of time. During our conversation, we talked about going from professional student to professional copywriter and how you can make the same leap. We also talked about: •   why stages of awareness are important and why buzzwords don’t create a connection •   failing and how you can (and should) make it work to your advantage •   how expecting a perfect first draft is like looking for a unicorn •   going from obtaining knowledge and skills in copywriting to putting it into action •   Eddie’s process in downloading the voice of a new client and why it’s important to effective copy •   how your creative artist and managerial side have to be separate when writing the first draft •   why feedback (even negative feedback) is essential to becoming a better copywriter •   choosing projects and people who empower you and respect your craft •   how learning and improving will always be a part of copywriting and it doesn’t need to be something you learn in a day •   how having a mentor speeds up the process because direct feedback is readily available •   where to look for red flags and how using your gut can save you a lot of headaches •   why building a better relationship with your mind will help you tackle imposter syndrome when it comes up (because it does for all of us) •   why taking care of your life side of things is vital to take care of the work side of things •   how copywriters have the power to make other people’s dreams come true (we are wizards after all) •   copywriting isn’t just a flippant task, it’s the infrastructure for long-term success •   why having a morning routine will keep you focused when in the copy cave (did we mention this includes reading?) •   how to navigate through writer’s block when perfectionism or ideas need to be uncovered Need a dose of motivation to stop going into information overload and start applying what you’re learning? This episode with Eddie might do just the trick. Hit the play button below (or read the transcript below!) The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: The Almanack of Naval How to Create Your Copywriter Website (written by Eddie) Eddie's Instagram Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground   Full Transcript: Rob:   Getting better at copywriting, this thing that we all do, isn't easy. And sometimes we get stuck in a project, we get stuck getting started or we get stuck struggling to find clients. Our guest for the 228th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast is Eddie Biroun. Eddie is the kind of copywriter who hates getting stuck and he's figured out what it takes to get moving again when he has gotten stuck. In fact, he's made dramatic improvements over the past year or two in how fast he writes, in the quality of his writing and the kinds of clients that he's working with. We think that you're going to get quite a bit from the experiences that Eddie shares in this interview. Kira:   Before we share our interview with Eddie, this podcast episode is brought to you by TCC (Not) In Real Life, our event for copywriters and other smart marketers who want to learn from experts like Joanna Wiebe, Todd Brown, Jereshia Hawk, Joel Klettke, Momo Price, and so many others like them. But it's not just about speakers and presentations and sitting through more Zoom calls because you don't need that. TCC IRL is really famous for connecting copywriters with each other and helping you to form real relationships, even friendships, potentially partnerships with other copywriters and marketers. To learn more, visit thecopywriterclub.com/tccnirl-2021. There's also a link to that in the show notes, if you want to check out the event page. Rob:   Let's jump right into our interview with Eddie telling us how he became a copywriter. Eddie Biroun:   I ended up in copywriting like most people do, I fumbled my way into it. I had been doing it without even realizing I'd done it. I was doing a lot of content writing and I was just generally doing a lot of advertising work. My first very marketing job was, I had a buddy who owned all the screens at our universities, all the TV screens and he was selling ad spaces using that. So I was the guy that was just coming around, knocking on doors around local businesses saying, "Hey, you want students to come and spend money here, right? Well, we've got all these TVs." It was a sales job, so it was tough, you're not going to get paid until somebody says yes. So what I was trying to do is sweeten the deal by offering them ad copy and graphic design. I didn't know what the word copywriting was back then, but I just knew that words go in an advertising piece. So people like that, and I was closing deals. Eventually I got a chance to work in the newspaper world and came across the idea of content writing and saw that as very magical because local businesses like, there's this mom and pop shop, Indian restaurant in a little tucked away part of town that was really nervous about investing in a piece with the newspaper. It was like 30,000 bucks, which was a lot of money for them. And we ran it and their phones wouldn't stop ringing. And all of a sudden, we had just changed their lives. They were all of a sudden booming, they were booked for the entire month. And I thought that's crazy. We wrote a cool really... It seems like magic, we wrote this little story and it completely revolutionized their lives, and I got really intrigued by that. And I want to learn more about how to write better, how to come up with interesting hooks and stuff. And that led me into trying to do stuff on the side. I had a buddy who wanted some SEO blog posts and like a moron, I was selling them for 50 bucks a pop, but I was so intoxicated at the idea of that somebody would pay me to write them and that my writing was actually good enough to get paid for. So I did that. And obviously you stop being intoxicated by it by the eighth time, you're like, okay, this is a lot of work. The 50 bucks isn't really that alluring. And then you realize you can double your rate and people will probably still come back if you're doing a really good job. So that's how I got started. And then I eventually started doing some sales pages and landing pages, somebody gave me an Instapage account, Unbounce account. And I just had a lot of fun bringing it to life, putting the visuals together, getting the copyright. But what happened is whenever I would start a new one, it would be a month or two later. I would go back into that account; I'd look at the page I had put together in the first place and all the numbers were at zero. There was zero conversions and it really bothered me. I'm like, wait, what's going on? I did such a good job, at least I thought I did a good job. I put so much hard work into it. Why is this not happening? I went down this rabbit hole of trying to figure that out. And it's like, Oh, wait a minute. It's this whole concept of conversion rate optimization. Wait a minute, there's this whole universe of copywriting. Like there's Eugene Schwartz, just a whole universe that I'm completely ignorant to. And I'm like, okay, well I got to catch myself up. I got to get up to speed with this. I would like came across this idea of copywriting, which was so foreign to me. Honestly even now I think of copywriting, it really feels like Harry Potter, like you guys know who I am. I know who you are. We all know each other. We know what the kind of work we do, but an outsider when I try to... They're like, what do you do? I'm like, I'm a copywriter. They don't know what that word is. So it's like, I'm talking to a muggle almost, they just have no concept of it. Kira:   So are you saying we're wizards? Are we wizards now? Eddie Biroun:   I believe so, we do very unimaginable things. Kira:   You're making us a lot cooler than I think we are. That's great. I'll take it, we're wizards. Rob:   I'm not sure I will look good in the robes. Or with the beard- Eddie Biroun:   Okay, man. It's all in the one swing man. Rob:   Yeah. Eddie Biroun:   Yeah. That's how I fell into it. Just like I started with a bit of content writing and then I started doing a bit of sales pages and it just didn't work. And I was trying to figure out why. Because I was just obsessed with the idea of how do I solve this Rubik's cube? Because I felt like I did a good job, so why is not converting? And then I started learning about, okay, well your traffic sources matter, and the amount of things to those people, the traffic sources they had been exposed to before they even hit that page. All of these things matter, stages of awareness and all that stuff. And just like the rhetoric that you're presenting on the page, you can't just be frivolous, you can't just use nice buzzwords. You have to be very particular and very meaningful in the words you use that speaks to the person that's going to read it. I just fell in love with it. I don't know. I guess I'm a nerd. I just thought that stuff was really cool and I enjoyed learning it, applying it and getting results out of it. Especially from clients, when they were happy, I was happy. Rob:   So Eddie, when I listen to you talk about this progression in your career, it seems to me like as you needed to learn something suddenly the resources are there or you spot the opportunity. Is there something about your approach to work where you're keeping an idea on the next thing to learn or the next thing to do or the missing piece that you need to add?

On the 227th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, we’re joined by content writer Jacob McMillen, who as you'll see towards the end of the episode is an SEO master. Jacob shares his insights on writing great copy and running a content business. Through actively listening and really wanting to help others in his door-to-door sales job, he decided to take the world of copywriting for a spin. Having scaled to 6 figures, we talked about the stages of business as a freelancer and what it really takes to make it. What's more... he’s the #1 search result for “copywriter” on Google. We break down: •   how copywriting can be the good of sales without the ick •   how Jacob went from accounting student (who didn't want to be an accountant) to copy expert •   Jacob’s natural talent for connecting a solution to a problem •   the perfect lucrative combination of marketing •   how batting 5% is crushing the pitching game •   how persistence is necessary in the beginning •   how to get your ideal customer to agitate their own problems •   the ropes of reeling in clients during the early stages •   why putting your eggs in one basket can leave you scrambled •   how Jacob went from 3k months to 20k •   how pitches can be the bread and butter when in need •   how flirting with SEO paid off & created 30+ monthly leads •   how to stand out in 2021 as a new copywriter •   why not to compare yourself to other copywriters •   building a copywriting agency and how it’s not for everyone •   if flipping websites could be the new real estate? •   how new technology cannot replace copywriting geniuses If you’re ready to go from side-hustle to business owner, this episode is worth checking out. Grab a cup of coffee, hit play & start taking notes. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Copywriter Think Tank Empire Flippers Jacob's Website Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground   Full Transcript: Kira:   This week we talked about the different stages of business as a freelancer with our guest, copywriter, and entrepreneur, Jacob McMillen. Jacob is currently the number one US search result for the search term copywriter, which means we should all team up and up our SEO game and challenge his number one spot. Rob:   We'll come back to Jacob's interview in just a moment, but first you should know that this interview is brought to you by The Copywriter Underground. That's our incredibly valuable membership for copywriters who are done figuring out things by themselves and want to surround themselves with an awesome community of copywriters. It includes our perfect proposal training, our persuasion course, our new sales course, plus more than 20 templates and dozens of presentations all designed to help you make progress in your business. You can learn more about it at thecopywriterunderground.com. Kira:   Now let's get to our conversation with Jacob. Jacob, we would love to just start with your story, a very detailed story of how you got into copywriting. Do not leave anything out. Jacob McMillen:   Okay. I think it's a relatively fun story. I think you have to start back when I got into sales and unlike a normal person, my start in sales was door to door sales in college. I got roped into doing it one summer. I needed a lot of money. It sounded a little ridiculous, but the numbers made sense to me. So I was like, I'm just going to do it. And I made enough to pay for three years of school in 16 weeks... Not 16 weeks, yes, 12 weeks. And I really enjoyed the sales process. I enjoyed sitting down with someone talking to them, hearing about their needs, connecting what they needed to the solutions I was selling. There were also a lot of things about direct sales that I hated. So after college, I graduated with an accounting degree. Only thing I knew was I'm not going into accounting. So I was like, what's next? Started to discover the online marketing world, SEO, stuff like that. And then I fell into copywriting and realized it was everything I loved about sales, minus everything I hated about sales. And I never really thought of myself as loving writing, but it would always come fairly easily. And once I started applying it and directions I actually cared about versus the writing you do in school, I realized I actually enjoyed it. So it just seemed like this great convergence of something that I was relatively talented at naturally, something I was learning to enjoy. And I quickly tapped into just how lucrative the demand was for it. And so, that's the perfect combination of things in terms of skillset to build your career around. So I just ran with it and yeah, started with blog writing and then went into landing pages. I just went full speed on the freelancing end of things, did that for a few years. I applied... I think doing that door to door sales job, my mentality towards sales was very volume-based, very hustle-based. I knew you got to knock on enough doors before you find someone who's going to say, yes, it's not about batting 90%. If you bat 5%, you're crushing it. And so, that helped me do pretty well in freelancing pretty quickly, did that for four, five years, and then started thinking, "Hey, wait a second, if all these people are paying me so much money for this writing, that must mean they're making more off of it. So I should try to make more off of it through my own businesses." So I started experimenting with that and building some side businesses and then that's... I still do freelancing work, but I've mostly started to transition into building some of these side businesses, including the one that I have through my website where I help other copywriters follow my freelancing path. And yeah, that's been the last, maybe three years that I've been doing some side businesses on that. And yeah, it all connects back to those original skills of writing and selling and been doing... Overall the career's now been about nine years and it's still a blast. I don't know if it's a mixture of luck or just progressively eliminating other options that I didn't like, but I'm super glad I found this career and that's where I am now. Rob:   Sweet. You maybe block out little chunks of that path and talk a little bit about them. Going back to the whole door-to-door sales gig, it's funny that you mentioned that because we've talked to quite a few copywriters who have had some door to door sales experience, or even retail sales experience, but a lot of people who learn how to do the sales thing one-on-one, however that was. So what was it about you that made you so good at it? Because so many people wash out after a week or two and can't do sales. Why did that work for you? And what were your biggest takeaways from that experience? Jacob McMillen:   Yeah, I think maybe the two biggest things, the first was the persistence. I think my first through my third week, maybe my fourth week, I had full on panic attacks every day from 11:00 AM to 12:00 PM. And most of it I think wasn't really around what was actually happening in the field. It was the fact that I knew I was committed to the full 12-week-period I was going to do this. And so I felt trapped, the day-to-day was tough and I knew I wasn't going to quit. And knowing I wasn't going to quit created these panic attacks, which is obviously a whole other side of things, but it was coming in just like pre-committing. I'm just one of those people who, if I commit to something, I do it. And so, if you go into something and your mentality is no matter what I'm figuring this out, you just tend to brute force your way past the things that trip up a lot of other people who are looking for an exit strategy. I think that was probably the first big piece. I don't know how healthy that is, but it is what it is. And then on the back end too, when it comes to the actual sales process, I actually didn't like... The people I was working with, the organization I was working in, they tracked the stats on everything. And my actual percentage of getting in and talking with people was very low. Not a lot of people would let me in the door to talk with them about what I was selling, but my close rate was through the roof. I think it came down mostly to just listening. Once we started, I knew what I needed to get to at some point, but instead of trying to rush to it or trying to sell, I just asked them good questions and let them sell themselves. Just sat back and listened and let them spend as long as they wanted to talk about the challenges they were feeling because I mean, as much as it's great to try to agitate the issues that people are dealing with, if they can do it themselves even better. That's the nice thing with direct sales. You can just ask the right question and let them spend 20 minutes agitating their own problems. And then it's just a matter of, if you're selling something that has a great product market fit, then it's just a matter of just very clearly showing how it's going to solve the things that they just spent 20, 30 minutes agitating. And so I wouldn't rush that. I would let it take its time. Part of the things I hated about sales was how emotionally invested I get in any particular conversation. I mean, it was a two-edged sword in the sense of people could feel that I really cared and that I was actually genuinely interested in the challenges they were facing and genuinely looking to see if what I was selling could help. And the upside of that is that, when you are able to communicate that authenticity and make people feel seen and their problems are real and important then they're more likely to purchase from you. Kira:   Maybe you already said this, Jacob, but what were you selling? Jacob McMillen:   Educational handbooks, the company was called Southwestern, and you might've heard of them,

Our guest for the 226th episode of The Copywriter Podcast is Christy Cegelski. Like many people who’ve become copywriters, Christy’s journey to becoming a copywriter was not a traditional one. She learned her marketing and copywriting skills after launching her own FOOD business. She gave us insights on how starting a business the “right” way isn’t the only way. Great results can be achieved by going off the beaten course and by following intuition. If you’re thinking about how your own background could prove useful in your copywriting career, make sure to give this episode a listen. This is how it all breaks down, we talked about: •   how Christy went from mommy blogger to food creator •   how margarita mix made Christy a copywriter •   the stigma of not being paid well as a writer was proving painfully true in the beginning •   her passion working behind the scenes with email funnels, website copy, social media •   the end of the food creation business but the beginning of a new one •   how she became the GO TO for all things websites & emails •   how she was able to grow her email list + social media organically •   how she proved email marketing was never “dead” •   the knowledge she brought into copywriting from her previous business endeavors •   when she knew copywriting was going to be a business •   how she used “the google method” in the beginning to price her offers •   why “figuring it out” in the beginning can be a positive and negative thing •   using feminine strategies rather than masculine & following intuition to do what feels fulfilling •   navigating burnout while learning a new skill •   why she outsourced before she was ready + the results •   how she’s scaled her prices overtime & works less •   Christy’s writing process + flow of creativity •   the struggles of going from storytelling to the point of the copy •   having a launch plan prior to starting a podcast + who should start one •   the benefits of having a podcast - reciprocal promotions •   how learning about something and taking action towards it are two different things Ready to elevate your mindset as a copywriter? Don’t miss this episode with Christy. Click the play button below, or subscribe using your favorite podcast app. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Christy's website Copywriter Think Tank Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground   Full Transcript: Rob:   So many copywriters follow what we've called a winding path from one career or kind of experience to their role as a copywriter. And some even grow beyond that to help with things like branding or voice development and marketing strategy. Our guest for the 226th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast is Christy Cegelski. Christy started writing as a mommy blogger, but then she got really serious about selling when she and her husband launched a company to sell the margarita mix that they had created. What she learned from running that company came in handy when other business owners started reaching out and asking for help with their copy for their businesses. Kira:   Before we share our interview with Christy, this podcast episode is brought to you by The Copywriter Underground. That's the membership for copywriters who are ready to start investing in their business, improve their sales calls, proposals, and build a network that supports them with ideas, leads, and more. To learn more, visit thecopywriterunderground.com. Rob:   Christy's experience ranges from mommy blogger to food product creator, to copywriter, to digital product maker and podcaster. But we started our interview with a question about how she became a copywriter. Christy Cegelski:   It's funny because listening to so many of your podcasts, I realized that none of us have a typical story where we dreamed one day we were going to become a copywriter, and here we are. I guess I kind of, I didn't know that it sort of had become such a cliche, that it was, everybody came about it in such a strange way. But for me, I mean, I was a stay at home mom for years and years, and I really wanted to get back into writing. It was something that I was really good at when I was a kid. It was sort of an escape for me growing up in the environment that I did, which is another story for another day. But back in 2007, I was reading a lot of mommy blogs. And this is kind of back in the day when bloggers were bloggers and not influencers like they are now. But that medium really kind of became an outlet for me as I started my own blog the next year. And it was a way for me to sort of get back into the practice of writing every day and just sharing my own experience as a wife and a mom. And it was working on that blog that ultimately led me to the decision to go back to school, to get my bachelor's degree in English, with a writing focus. And at the same time, I started pitching myself for some freelance writing gigs in local publications. And these assignments literally paid zero to maybe up to $50 an article and you can't really make a living on that, right. It kind of seemed like what I was hearing my whole life about not being able to make a living as a writer was really kind of proving to be true. But I stayed in school, I loved it. I was still sort of getting these random low-paying writing jobs here and there. And then at the start of my final semester, my husband and I kind of veered off course a little bit and created a line of all natural locale margarita mixes, kind of by accident. It was totally random. But we really had no business kind of getting into the food industry or bottling this stuff. We were completely naive about anything to do with grocery stores and food packaging and all of that. But everybody that we were sharing this stuff with was like, "Oh, you really need to bottle this. You need to bottle this." And so the short story is we found a manufacturer to bottle the mixes for us. We hooked up with a few distributors and we started getting these margarita mixes into a lot of local natural grocery stores, specialty food stores. We sold them online and that was really my first experience with e-commerce. It wasn't big back in 2010 when this was happening. People weren't really buying food online. But what I kind of found throughout the whole process is that I really loved working behind the scenes in a creative capacity. And I seem to have a knack for building an audience and for email marketing. I wrote all the website copy, copy for the marketing materials, emails, all the social media captions. And I was able to really grow our audience and our sales without really knowing that what I was doing was copywriting. So that was kind of the start of it. And then long story short, we closed that business after four years because we just didn't make enough money at it. But the interesting thing that sort of came out of that experience was that other business owner, friends and acquaintances started to reach out to me for help with their website copy and content for their brands. And at first, I was writing a lot of copy for other product-based businesses like ours, but it kind of transitioned pretty quickly into writing for personal brands in the coaching and online course space. That was kind of my intro to copywriting when I didn't really know that it was a job title or that it was something that you could get paid for. Rob:   Yeah, so let's go all the way back to that first blog. What was the topic? What were you writing about? Were you also doing the mommy blog thing or did you have anything specific? Christy Cegelski:   It was definitely a mommy blog. It was called Heavy on the Caffeine. And I actually really liked that title, might revisit it for something, who knows? But yeah, it was just really about being a stay-at-home mom and my life with little kids. And I just really had fun with it. I had no idea what I was doing and it was just fun. Rob:   Yeah. I remember those early days of blogging, I did something similar. I think Kira also did something similar and just sort of experimenting, playing with ... Yours was a shoe blog, is that ... No, wait, tall. Kira:   Oh my God. Rob:   I'm trying to remember. Kira:   About being tall. I had a blog about being a tall person, which is the worst idea for a blog ever. And then I had one about rebelling against the bridal industry. But yeah, I miss those days too, good times. Christy Cegelski:   I miss it. I really miss it. Kira:   Let's go back. Rob:   That's definitely a better way... Well, maybe not a better way, but it was definitely a nice way to share a lot of thoughts and be able to engage in an audience that wasn't on a platform like Facebook or Twitter, where you get sort of all the negativity and all that comes along with it. Christy Cegelski:   Yeah, definitely. Because I think people were not going to kind of take that extra step to leave a negative comment. It just wasn't worth their time. Rob:   Yeah. Okay. Let's fast forward a little bit then and talk a little bit about your experience with the margarita company. So you were doing mostly, I'm assuming mostly content marketing for that, but what exactly did that look like? And maybe one or two big takeaways from that experience. Christy Cegelski:   Well, this was back in the day when Facebook, I don't think there was Instagram yet. But it wasn't a pay to play platform. It was pretty easy to build up a fan page and communicate with people that way. It was really just about showing up every day and engaging. But it's interesting because something that happened back then when we were sort of getting our website up and running and we worked briefly with the marketing team, because we were kind of looking into different ways to get our name out there. Did we want to go the radio ads route?

One of the things we love about The Copywriter Club Facebook group is that we have members all over the world… in just the last 60 days, members from 99 different countries on every continent except Antartica—places like Bulgaria, Colombia, Lithuania, Nigeria, India, and of course the UK, US, Australia, and Canada—have stopped in to read posts, ask questions, comment or just learn from the advice and wisdom shared in the group. Our guest for the 225th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast is SEO copywriter and content strategist, Chima Mmeje, who like so many others, joined the group and used the information she found there to hone her business as she started looking for clients. And now, she’s paying it all forward. She talks about: •   studying LinkedIn for lead generation (then landing her first client with her very first post!) •   the reason we should focus on human content just as much as expert content •   articulating her process in order to raise her prices •   blogging to generate organic leads and answer frequently asked questions •   her initial struggle of finding her value — and building her authority as an African copywriter...and so much more •   Chima also spoke about The Freelance Coalition for Developing Countries — the initiative she started to pair experienced copywriters, marketers and creatives with their counterparts in developing countries. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript. And if you haven't yet, subscribe with your favorite podcast app to make sure you never miss an episode.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Chima's webpage Chima's LinkedIn Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground   Full Transcript: Kira:   One of the things we love about The Copywriter Club Facebook group is that we have members all over the world. In just the last 60 days, members from 99 different countries on every continent except Antarctica... Places like Bulgaria, Columbia, Lithuania, Nigeria, India and of course, the UK, U.S., Australia and Canada, they've all stopped to repost, ask questions, show up in the group, comment or just learn from the advice and wisdom shared in the group. Our guest for the 225th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast is Chima Mmeje, who like so many others, joined the group and used the information she found there to hone her business as she started looking for clients. And now, she's paying it all forward. Rob:   We'll share Chima's story and how she's paying her experience forward in just a minute but first, this podcast episode is brought to you by The Copywriter Underground, that's the incredibly valuable membership for copywriters who are ready to start investing in their business, improving their sales skills, their proposals and building a network that supports them with ideas, leads and more. As a member of the Underground, you have access to a full sales training course, our proposal training course, the persuasion training course plus dozens of other trainings to improve your copywriting, your mindset and marketing your own business. To learn more, visit the thecopywriterunderground.com. Kira:   As we like to do, we started off by asking Chima how she ended up as an SEO copywriter and content strategist. Chima Mmeje:   I used to work for a company that are based in the UK. I worked with them remotely from 2017 until April 2019 and while I was working with them, most of the content we're creating was for these big SEO agents in the UK, they were the biggest SEO agents in the UK at the time. And I realized that I always had the most fun when I was writing content for them, as against writing content for clients in other industries. And my boss used to have a background working with Google, so he was always very helpful in answering questions and my interest kept growing. So by the time I left, I played around with several industries, landing pages, printer's copy and other stuff but it just felt natural going towards the route of SEO than anything else I'd ever done, it just felt easy. So that was decision made for me or rather, SEO finding me and not me finding SEO. Rob:   So Chima, tell us a little bit about how you decided to become a copywriter and how you got that first gig. Chima Mmeje:   Yeah, that first gig, it was by chance to be honest because I was just scrolling through... I was looking for a job and I was just scrolling through a job board and then I found this gig saying they are looking for a remote copywriter. I applied, I got it and that was it. There was no moment where I decided that I wanted to be a copywriter. I was blogging for a few years, I think five years. My own blog where I was writing... So it was a way for me to express myself about the issues we have in Nigeria and I was doing that for five years, just like a hobby blog. So I already had a background in writing but this was the first time that I was going to use that skill to earn money. So I just found a gig, applied for it and the rest, as they say, is history. Kira:   And because I always like to know the timing, when did you get that gig? Chima Mmeje:   Yeah, 2017, 2017. Kira:   2017, okay. Chima Mmeje:   I got it. Kira:   And when did you leave that gig, or do you still work with them on occasion? Chima Mmeje:   No. I left that gig in April 2019, it wasn't the best paying gig. It was like, get your experience, get a few works for your portfolio, learn what you have to learn and then get out. Because what people don't understand is that when companies hire writers from Africa, they are not hiring us because we are good, they are hiring us because we are cheap. So I was writing around 5000 words a day, it was crazy work. I only did it till, yeah, I could get the skills I needed and once I got the skills I needed, I got out. Kira:   Okay. Yeah, I was going to ask you, how did you know when it was the right time to leave and move on to the next opportunity? Chima Mmeje:   That's an interesting question, I joined TCC in September 2018, yes. And I would see some of the work that people were doing and I would hear how much they were charging for the work and I was like, that's crazy. I write better copy than these guys and I'm getting paid less than one cent per word. And that was when I started thinking about leaving because I realized that I could be making 100 times more money working on my own than working for that guy, where I was writing 100,000 words a month and earning $500. And I was comparing my work with other people and I was seeing I was better than them, so I started looking at how people were getting clients, reading about how people were sending pitches. I followed TCC for three months to prepare myself to leave and then once I felt like I had enough information about getting started as a freelance copywriter, then I left. Rob:   So, can we talk about that a little bit more in depth? What were the steps that you took? And what was it that you did in order to find the clients as you went out on your own? Chima Mmeje:   Okay, so before I left that gig, I made sure I had two clients because I did not want to leave the gig and then be empty like that, without a job or without many clients. So what I did was I joined LinkedIn. While I was studying how freelancers worked in TCC, I was also doing the same thing on LinkedIn. So I was looking at how people were posting content on LinkedIn. The kind of content that got the most likes, the kind of content that people did not engage with. And I followed LinkedIn for six months to see how I could use it as a lead generator and then I joined LinkedIn in February 2019, made my first post. I got lucky because the day after I made my first post, I landed my first client. The next day, I landed another client and then in one month later, I landed my first U.S. based client and then two weeks later, I landed my first Australian client. So I already had a lot of traction in the early days, enough traction for me to say I could leave this gig and I will still be okay. Kira:   Okay, so I want to hear about what you were doing on LinkedIn because you took the time to really observe and see what's working and what's not working and then you did it and you just landed client after client. So what were you doing that was better or different than the average LinkedIn user or LinkedIn copywriter user? Chima Mmeje:   Okay, so the first thing I did was optimize the heck out of my profile. People don't understand but your profile is like your CV. When you're asking a girl or a guy out and then you go online to go and do a little bit of background digging on them, to see if the face matches what is behind the brain and that's what LinkedIn is about. People are going to start by looking at your profile. So my profile is really optimized, the headline, the about section, the future section. Every part of my LinkedIn profile, a lot of thought went into it. And then when I optimized my profile, I reached out to several experts, people who have been on LinkedIn for a few years, then I asked them to review my profile, they gave me some feedback and I used that feedback to make sure that my profile was really good. Chima Mmeje:   And then the most important thing I do on LinkedIn I think really, really helps me generate leads is content. I don't just post educational content, content about SEO because people find SEO boring. So I have a mix of content, I talk about everything from poop to not wearing clothes during LinkedIn calls. Sorry, during Zoom calls. To my nephew jumping in on a LinkedIn call, again, sorry, Zoom call. And a lot of funny stuff. And the truth is, it was a funny post I made about watching my dad grow his business that landed me my first clients and then landed me a gig with a nonprofit in the U.S. it's all of these posts that humanizes you,

Today’s guest for the 224th episode of The Copywriter Club podcast is Bree Weber.  Bree has a somewhat different approach to cold pitching than some past guests we’ve had on the podcast.  One that takes a lot more time, but also seems to get better results.  We ask her not only to divulge all of the secrets to her process, but she also shares a pitch she used to land a big client. One we think will make you want to pause this episode and take note.  Scroll down to have a listen. A few other things we discussed were… •   how she became a copywriter through a process she calls business roulette •   what pet photography, video game streamer and Super Meat Boy all have in common •   what is ethical cold pitching and Bree’s process for making it effective •   how Bree created credibility and authority in her pitches when she had “no portfolio, no fancy names to drop or real stats…” •   how she reinvented herself after losing all of her retainer clients in 2020 •   Bree’s fears and anxieties she’s worked through when it comes to sales •   what she’s done to turn cold pitching on its head; taking it from stigmatized to impossible to ignore •   why Bree is getting responses from prospective clients within minutes instead of days or never •   how Bree creates space in her schedule for thinking intentionally about her business •   what to avoid in your call to action, so you don’t turn prospective clients off •   what advice she would give to herself 3 years ago to fast track her business growth •   breaking down how she uses video to follow up with clients instead of just another email •   tips for bypassing years of experience many need to work with major brands and dream clients •   why Bree stays open in all aspects of her business •   what persuasion techniques have worked for Bree in her pitches •   how to make clients say “thank you” for your pitch instead of just deleting it •   why Bree says to get comfortable with “trying on an identity” •   what has surprised Bree most about her time in the Copywriter Think Tank •   Kira and Rob’s advice on taking “imperfect action” and surrounding yourself with action takers The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: The Copywriter Think Tank Laura Lopuch Chris Collins Belinda Weaver Bree's Masterclass offer for our listeners Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground   Full Transcript: Transcript is underway...

Copywriter and philosophy graduate, Chris Collins is our guest for the 223rd episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. He's a member of the Underground and the Copywriter Think Tank so we've seen first hand how cold pitching has transformed his copywriting career and helped him get the clients he wants.  We knew this is something we wanted to hear more about directly from Chris, so we asked him about... •   how being a mommy blogger launched his career •   how he saved himself hours of time streamlining his pitching process and scaling it •   how he got past his fear of cold pitching •   exactly how many emails should you send to your email list? •   the importance of building relationships versus up leveling yourself •   why just learning “stuff” isn’t enough •   what to do if you don’t have money to invest in yourself or your business •   why research is critical for a stand-out cold pitch •   Chris's highest converting subject line – averaging over a 90% open rate •   how he combines automating with personalization •   his not-so-secret shortcut for how he built his copywriting business from 0-10K per month in the same year •   his advice on pitching if you’ve never had a client •   what his graduate studies in philosophy taught him about strengthening his copy •   what he did right in the beginning of his business that you should too •   Rob and Kira’s advice on getting started and dealing with rejection To hear more of what Chris has to say, scroll down and hit the play button. Keep scrolling for a full transcript and, of course, you can subscribe with your favorite podcast app to make sure you never miss an episode. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: reply.io The Copywriter Think Tank The Copywriter Accelerator Chris's LinkedIn christophercollins.co Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground   Full Transcript: Kira:   There's an old cartoon that was published in the New Yorker Magazine of a dog in front of a computer, and the caption says, "On the internet, nobody knows you're a dog." That might ring true for a lot of copywriters who write for clients in voices that don't quite match their own, like our guest for the 223rd episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, Chris Collins, whose first assignment was writing content for a mommy blogger. In real life, Chris is an academic, doesn't have kids and gravitates to philosophy, not family planning. We asked Chris how he transitioned from mommy blogger to SAS, and in the process, he revealed a ton of tips about the ins and outs of cold pitching. Rob:   But before we dive into Chris's story, this episode is brought to you by The Copywriter Accelerator. That's our program for copywriters who want to build a solid business foundation for everything that they do. Members of The Accelerator work through eight different modules together, and those modules cover topics like branding, pricing, client management, getting yourself in front of the right clients, and a lot more. If you've struggled to get transaction in your business, or you're making a change in the kinds of clients that you want to work with, the kind of work that you want to do, or any other thing in your business, you simply want to get better at your processes and the services that you sell, you owe it to yourself to learn more at thecopywriteraccelerator.com. Kira:   Let's jump in with a question about how Chris got started as a copywriter/ mommy blogger. Chris Collins:   My first gig was being a mommy blogger, and that wasn't necessarily where I wanted to be as a writer or where I wanted to start out, but it was just honestly the first gig that I got. I had just been thinking, "Well, maybe I can try my hand at writing online. I'm a pretty good writer. Let's see how that'll go." And the first client I found, she ran a sleep consultancy to help new moms. And she was looking for a blog writer and I sent her something and she really liked what I was doing. That ended up being my first gig for the first six months. And it was the first time that I really understood the power of research actually, because right off the bat, I was writing on topics that I did not know anything about. I'm not a mom or a dad, I don't have kids, I don't have a ton of firsthand experience with kids, but what I could do was research these topics that she would give me. She would want to write about, why do kids wake up in the middle of the night? Or, why is my kid a reluctant pooper? And so I would dig into all these articles and research the why behind this and write I think pretty well-informed articles that... She was really happy with the content, but I also knew that I don't speak the language of parents. I'm not in that social circle, I don't know what parents talk about, or are interested in. Kira:   I don't know either. What do parents talk about? I have no idea. Chris Collins:   I don't know, but what I did to make my articles I guess more relevant was search for phrases like "Potty training" on Twitter, or Facebook or whatever, or things like, "My kid won't poop." I would just get all these posts and it was the first time I'd ever searched for VOC data. And I really didn't know what I was doing, but I would just get all of these social posts where people were like... I was reading what parents were saying in their own words about their kids potty problems. Anyway, I think this is a lot, but it ended up being a really good first experience in doing VOC research and writing about that topic wasn't necessarily what I wanted to do forever, but it did leave me to other kinds of content writing and copywriting that were a better fit. Rob:   Before we jump to that stuff though, Chris, in addition to the voice of customer research that you were doing, did you have to adjust your writing in any way to match the mum blogger voice, or does that just come naturally out of the research that you were doing? Chris Collins: That's a great question. It's been a while since I did it. I definitely felt like I had to go... I looked at a bunch of other mom blogs to see what their voice looked like and sounded like, and I was trying to match that. I was definitely doing some competitor scanning as well, because the way I would naturally write, I think, is a little bit less personality-driven, a little bit better suited to the SAS world where I've gravitated to. But for sure, I had to do some research just on, what should the voice of this piece be? What should that look like? Rob:   In all the research that you did, was there anything that shocked you about children or about parenting that you're like, "Whoa, I did not know that?" Chris Collins:   Well, it definitely reinforced my impression that parenting is really hard. As someone who is not currently a parent, I would go over to my sister... My sister has two kids, and I would go over to her house and it was right about the time my niece was potty training and she would be having exactly the kinds of issues that I was writing about. And they had tried three-day potty training without a ton of success. And they tried different things to make it go smoothly. And I would just be like, "He’s to young for that. You should try this." Mary, my sister, she was just not having it. She was like, "I'm not interested. I don't want to hear it." I don't know, nothing terribly shocking, I guess. Rob:   But how did this first gig then launch you into gig number two and to the point where you could start your own freelance business? Chris Collins:   Even as I was writing for this client, I wasn't making much money doing this, to be frank. I think that by the time that contract ended, I think I was making less than $40 per post. So not a lot. But I was very aware very early on of what was possible in the world of copywriting. I had been following this very podcast that we're on very early on. And I think I was pretty clear that I wanted to work for better clients and clients that I would be more interested in working for. I started to just try to find clients who were more of an ideal fit. I think for most of the first year, I was still on Upwork and trying to reach clients on Upwork, and I think it took me a long time to realize that was, for me, not likely to be where I was going to find my best clients, but that whole first year was a process of gradually finding clients who were going to be more in the tech space, clients who were going to pay me better than what I was currently making. I think over the course of the year, I landed... This was over 2019. I landed a couple of four figure projects, which at the time just was a big mind blowing thing for me and just helped me to see, "Well, you can actually make some decent money doing this and you can work on projects that are really fun." Kira:   Can you talk about what you were doing before you got into copywriting, your background and education in philosophy and how that background and lessons in philosophy have shown up in business? Chris Collins:   Oh my gosh. Yeah, I can talk about that. I never ever thought that I would be doing copywriting at all, although I think what's turned out to be the case has been it's been a really natural... coming full circle in terms of being something that really leverages the writing and research skills that I developed early in my career. But I started my career going to grad school planning to be a philosophy professor. The thing that jumps out at me the most from that experience was just that when I was in graduate school, it was just very different right off the bat from anything I had done before. I remember my very first seminar that I was in, we were reading philosophy of language that was just at this really high level that I'd never read anything like it before, I was having a hard time with a lot of it.

What does it take to build a successful business from scratch? We're talking about going from nothing to 6 or even 7 figures as a freelancer.  Well as you know, it's not one simple thing, but a combination of a lot of things from choosing a niche and building your network to encouraging referrals and building multiple streams of income.  Our guest for the 222nd episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast is Brandi Mowles.  We talk to her about her step-by-step approach for creating a successful business that can work for you.  In this episode we discuss: •   why doing "what she's supposed to do" didn't work out for her •   why Brandi went to law school with zero intention of working as a lawyer afterwards •   why she chose to lean into network marketing and what that has to do with the "glass ceiling" •   how she took a leap of faith and went all in with her online businesses •   whether or not there is a grace period for niching down - her take on it •   her journey from VA to Social Media Ads Manager to Coach and Business Strategist •   what she did to stand out and market her services for free •   the biggest personal lesson Brandi learned in direct sales and how it changed her perspective on work, family and her identity •   what Brandi calls the GIF effect and why it’s so important to your business •   why you should only choose ONE thing to change every launch •   dealing with trolls •   why the first 24 hours after the first contact is so important for delighting your clients and how Brandi does just that •   creating your own referral program and getting leads from your best clients •   building a win-win ecosystem with other freelancers •   why she wants you to have 2-3 revenue streams and how she's done that for herself This episode is filled with tips you won’t want to miss. Scroll down and hit the play button, or scroll a little farther to read a full transcript. Or download the episode to your podcast player. Better still, subscribe and never miss an episode. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: The Copywriter Accelerator Bonjoro Brandi’s website Beta to Biggie Accelerator Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground   Full Transcript: Transcript is underway...

For a lot of us, being a copywriter is something we just stumble upon accidentally. And for most beginners, it’s getting harder and harder to know what to do when you’re starting out. Our guest for the 221st episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast is Delesia Watson. If you’re a beginning copywriter, or you want a fresh approach on how to approach marketing and the world of copywriting, then this interview is for you. To hear everything that Delesia shared, scroll down and click the play button. Or download this episode to your favorite podcast app. You can also find a transcript below. We also talked about: •   how Delesia’s went from social media writer to copywriter •   Delesia’s start in Public Relations and how it helps her as a copywriter •   Delesia’s interview process that puts prospects and clients at ease •   A look into what her first year in business looked like •   Power of storytelling: Why it’s important •   Choosing the right words—what works and what doesn’t •   The importance of story and voice •   Underselling copy -- what makes the website fail •   Pitching -- how to get the right clients •   The kind of clients she works with •   Delesia’s secret to leveraging yourself without opening your wallet •   Her secret tip on how to market yourself •   A pet peeve—the one thing she hates doing the most in her business •   Can you succeed without knowing your niche yet? •   What Delesia wishes she knew in the beginning and what she knows now •   Rob and Kira’s advice to beginning (or struggling) copywriters The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: The Copywriter Accelerator Women Don't Ask by Linda Babcock and Sara Laschever Ask For It by Linda Babcock and Sara Laschever Bencivenga’s Bullets The Gary Halberd Letter Free and Inexpensive Resources for Copywriters Delesia’s Youtube Channel: Life is Deleesh Delesia’s Website The Copywriter Club Website Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground   Full Transcript: Kira:   Who grows up thinking “I want to be a copywriter”? Somehow we all seem to arrive at this point in our careers after working as teachers, marketers, even professions like nurses and attorneys. Our guest for the 221st episode of The copywriter podcast is Delesia Watson, who like the rest of us, found her way into copywriting accidentally. But her background in communications, teaching, pageants and PR prepared her perfectly to make the jump. Rob:   But before we dive into Delesia's story, this episode is brought to you by The Copywriter Accelerator. That's our program for copywriters who want to build a solid business foundation for everything that they do. Members work through eight different modules all together, covering topics like branding, pricing, client management, getting yourself in front of the right clients. If you've struggled to get traction in your business, or if you're making a change in the kinds of clients that you want to work with, or the kinds of work you want to do, or you simply want to get better at processes and services that you sell, you owe it to yourself to learn more at thecopywriteraccelerator.com. Kira:   Let's jump in and find out how Delesia accidentally became a copywriter. All right, Delesia, we want to start off with your story as we always do. How did you end up as a copywriter? Delesia Watson:   That is hard to say, accidentally. I wasn't planning on becoming a copywriter or becoming a writer, I just knew that I was good at writing. And so my friends would ask for help writing papers and essays throughout my entire life. And then eventually I saw an opportunity to work with a smaller agency that was writing tweets. This is back in, I think 2015, they were writing tweets for thought influencers. So I was writing these people's tweets about technology or about business. And so that was something that I could add to my resume. And then from there, a friend of mine was working for a self-publishing company and she knew that I write and I'm always talking about grammar mistakes on social media. So she was like, "Hey, you should come help me copy edit books for this self-publishing company that I'm working for." So I was like, "Totally, I would love to do that." And I think what really made me feel like, "Hey, I'm probably a copywriter now," was connecting with a graphic designer. She needed a copywriter for the websites that she was designing. And so I connected with her and started to work with her on a few different projects. And so the bulk of what I do today is writing website copy. Rob:   So Delesia, I know you've got a lot of PR in your background as well. In fact, you've done all kinds of stuff, not only the copy editing and copy writing that you're talking about, but social media, you've worked at an agency, you've done the account side. We talk a little bit about that previous experience, maybe particularly what you did in PR that makes you a better copywriter today. Delesia Watson:   Sure. So I went to grad school for PR and after I went to grad school actually I worked for several agencies throughout college and grad school. I did some in-house work and then worked for a couple years after grad school in PR. And what I really learned while working there was about the power of storytelling and the power of choosing the right words to say when you want to communicate about your business or your brand or about who you are and really being specific about who your target audience is and who it's not. Kira:   Cool. And so how do you use that storytelling ability with your clients today in website copy? Do you have a unique approach or a way that you work with your clients in that website space? Delesia Watson:   I am an interviewer at my core, I love asking questions. I ask questions all the time in conversations. It's how I get to know people, how I make people feel comfortable. And so I'm not thinking of it as a strategy, but it's something that I naturally do. So whenever I take on a new client, I just interview them. I spend time talking to them, asking about their life experiences, about their business background, about what led them to start this business because it's primarily small businesses, entrepreneurs. And so hearing their story and listening to them tell about what's made them who they are, their struggles, their achievements, that's what really helps me get a grasp of the story that both they want to tell and that I think should be told to the audience. Rob:   And what's the next step in that research process? Because I know this is going to feel very familiar to a lot of copywriters who do some kind of an interview, some kind of a get to know you when they're working with their clients, but how do you take those answers that they give you and then turn that into copy that actually works for what your client wants to accomplish? Delesia Watson:   So they usually say certain things over and over again, like their own catchphrases that they don't really think are catchphrases. So a lot of times I'm taking notes as I'm interviewing them, of course. And I take that and I just make those catch phrases pretty. So they may say it in a different ways and then I'll look at my interview notes and oftentimes I'll actually replay the recording and hear the tone of their voice. And I use that along with what the feel of their mission or the feel of their values is to then craft their homepage, to craft their about page, so craft the service pages that they offer. Kira:   What would you say where do you think copywriters go wrong or maybe even some of the business owners that need to work with you and have not hired you yet? Maybe they're DIYing their own website copy. Where do we mess up when it comes to website copy? Delesia Watson:   I think we either oversell or undersell. Sometimes copy can be very in your face selling to you like, buy here, subscribe here, sign up here. And I think there's an art to the way that we soft sell, the way that we encourage people to join a community or sign up for a consultation or purchase a product without making them feel like we're selling. Because honestly, if I'm on social media and I see an ad, I can almost immediately tell that it's an ad and then I'm like, "This is an ad. I don't want to double-tap because it feels like an ad to me." But if I see content that looks and feels genuine and authentic and organic, then I'm more inclined to engage with it. And I think many people are like that today. Rob:   So Delesia, I'd love to dive into the nuts and bolts of your business. As you got started out, what were you doing to bring in those first clients? And then what kinds of work are you doing today? How has that changed over time? Delesia Watson:   Sure. So when I first started, I was working full time for a nonprofit as I was doing a bunch of different roles. I was their communications director, I was also teaching in public schools for a health education program that we had in contract with federal government. So I was working with the graphic designer on the side. And so that kind of boosted my confidence in my copywriting ability and actually came to a turning point in the work at the non-profit where I could either move into a new role or set out and do my own thing. And so obviously I was nervous. I'm like, "Oh my gosh, have I built up my side hustle to the point that I can just leave and not have any prospects?" And I felt like it was time. I prayed about it. I'd been praying for months about it, I fasted. And I felt like, "Okay, God, let's do it." And so for much of my first year of copywriting, I was working with the graphic designer. But then I was pitching. I joined a bunch of Facebook communities and Listservs and all of these other kinds of places that people go when they're like, "I need writing work."

How did last year affect your business? 2020 was hard on a lot of copywriters, but somewhere in all the chaos, many of them found a way to not just survive, but thrive. In this episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, we invited Claire Pelletreau to interview us about the past year, our own struggles, the changes we’ve made to our businesses and a lot more. We think the next year is full of potential and can’t wait to get started. Here’s what we talked about: •   how Claire set up her business to take maternity leave •   the surprises that came as she took time away (and overcoming failure) •   the mindset shifts Claire dealt with during her leave •   the lessons we learned during 2020 (and Rob’s dream about COVID) •   how we learned to like having a team to support our business •   the pivots we had to make in our business this year •   why we didn’t change our marketing sooner… waiting for pain •   how the various programs at The Copywriter Club work together •   the shift from live to virtual and how things got better •   what we know about TCCIRL in 2021 so far… •   how the past year has impacted us personally •   our pep talk for what to expect in the next year •   our predictions for 2021—what we think is going to happen •   getting copywriters to use more Facebook ads If you want a little more insight into our businesses and what we did over the past 12 months, this is the episode to listen to. Scroll down and click the play button. Or subscribe with your favorite podcast app. You’ll find a full transcript below. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Get Paid Podcast with Claire Pelletreau The Courage and Clarity Show with Steph Crowder The Copywriter Accelerator Todd Brown Charlie Gilkey Jereshia Hawk Brian Kurtz Claire’s website Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground   Full Transcript: Transcript is underway...