TCC Podcast #144: Using Copy to Set the Stage with Jeff Kimes

Copywriter Jeff Kimes is our guest for the 144th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. Jeff is a former scientist and musician (or rather, he's currently a musician making his living writing copy for clients). We asked Jeff about his path into copywriting and a bunch of other topics including... •  Jeff’s journey from scientist to copywriter •  the “copywriting” lessons he learned as a musician •  how he creates connection with his readers •  the importance of setting the stage to create a better experience •  what he’s doing today as a copywriter (and where he is living) •  the challenges of writing for a single client and learning their voice •  the benefits of working with a single client •  how we can optimize for learning throughout our careers •  what Jeff is doing to build his authority today Jeff also shared a few thoughts about the ethics of copywriting and why thinking about how your copy serves your customers matters. Click the play button below, find it on your favorite podcast app, or scroll down for a full transcript.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Jeff's music Joshua Bell in the Subway Video Brian Clark (Copyblogger) Brian Kurtz Scott Adams Jeff’s website Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Intro: Content (for now) Outro: Gravity   Full Transcript: Rob:   This podcast is sponsored by The Copywriter Underground. Kira:   It's our new membership designed for you to help you attract more clients and hit 10K a month consistently. Rob:   For information or to sign up go to thecopywriterunderground.com. Kira:   What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes and their habits then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That's what Rob and I do every week at The Copywriter Club Podcast. Rob:   You're invited to join the club for episode number 144 as we chat with copywriter Jeff Kimes about how science, music and travel combined to make him a more effective copywriter. His research and writing process, seeking out experiences that grow his career. And we might even talk a little bit about the ethics of copy. Kira:   All right, welcome Jeff. Rob:   Hey Jeff. Jeff:    Hello. Kira:   I want to say welcome back because we already did interview months ago, but we just lost the file. It just didn't work out. So welcome back. We never got to publish that conversation, but I know this one will be even more insightful. So Jeff why don't we start this off just with the basics of how you got into copywriting and then we'll go from there. Jeff:    So as far as my own journey into copywriting, I've lived a couple different phases of life, which I think is pretty normal at this point in society. I started out in science. I was working in a psychoneuroimmunology lab. After school I was doing, working in vaccine development. I worked in neuroscience labs and stuff like that. And after a while I got really sick of the lab life and was really hungering for more. And I always had a real big travel bug inside of me. And so went on a, found jobs that facilitated that lifestyle. I worked at sea a lot in marine biology and used that to fund eight years of world travel that was very musically inspired. I'm also a musician and I'd go to a lot of countries where I was really inspired by their musical traditions and learned to teach over there. And then I would take what I learned and incorporate it into music that I was making back here in the U.S. and used that to launch a music project that I played with for several years. It was really fun, enormously fun. Not terribly profitable, but just a really, really beautiful life experience. And in that process of growing a band and trying to make music my life and make that my living started to really come into contact with the necessity of marketing. And you have to get your message out there. You have, it doesn't matter how good what you do is. No one really cares how good what you do, unfortunately, if they don't know about it. If you can't tell your story, if you can't tell people how awesome you are, if you can't find ways to connect with audiences and draw them into whatever it is that you're creating, it's almost a lost cause. I mean I've met lots of incredible musicians, just like really inspired artists, amazing people who are all really struggling. No one's ever heard of them because they don't know how to promote themselves. And so my first real exposure to copywriting was doing Kickstarter campaigns and running copy for our Kickstarter launch and helped script out the video. I mean it was a team effort, for sure, and a lot of outreach and all that. That was the first time I was like, okay, if you want people to give you money you have to write all these words. What do you write? How do you write? That's what I started investigating and doing research online and one thing leads to another. And then as the band grew it was, we got relatively successful. We were playing on large stages at festivals up on the West Coast and having a great time, really great connections with our audiences and everything like that. But even then, you know, life as a touring musician, awesome in a lot of ways, but it's also really grueling and I started looking for other ways to really supplement my income that would allow me to continue this lifestyle of travel, music, art and all these other things I was really passionate about. And freelance, I looked into a lot of different kinds of things. And it was like, okay, what could I do that I am already kind of good at, that is going to make me a better person that is going to be adding valuable skill to my skillset even if I don't do it for very long. So even if I only do this thing for say two, three, four or five years, whatever, I'm going to be way better off because I did that. And so I'm not a designer. I'm not really visually arts inclined. I'm not a programmer. I tried that once. But really it came down to writing. I was like, okay, I know that I can write. I know that I can communicate. It's still creative. And I can start connecting with other businesses and their marketing, which was clearly valuable. And so that kind of kicked me off in this whole journey into copywriting. And after that project I was working with, that relationship ended and stepped out of that. And copywriting really took over. And that's kind of how I ended up where I am now in the short version. Rob:   Cool. So first question. What was the band name? Jeff:    Band name was Yima. It was kind of a- Rob:   Yima. Jeff:    -down tempo kind of organic electronic hybrid thing. They're still playing. Yeah, I'm not playing. Rob:   All right. Well I guess let's check them out on iTunes or wherever people get their music. We'll look for that. But, so you mentioned having to learn how to promote as part of your musical experience and also connect you with the audience. So there are other lessons that you pulled from being a musician that apply directly to what you do in copywriting today. Jeff:    So before the band even, well kind of at the same time, I also spent time as a busker, like a street musician. And it's a similar kind of thing in street music where you see these people, like they can be really amazing street musicians who don't make a lot of money because they're kind of inwardly focused. They're so into their music that they're not really showing it. So kind of showmanship and really connecting with people and giving, to a certain extent, giving people what they want. Giving people something really interesting and engaging to look at. And when it comes to copy it’s like yeah, you as a business, you probably have a lot of really wonderful things you want to say, but is that engaging for anyone else? Is this enjoyable to read? Are you really connecting on what they want to hear and feel? And that sort of empathic, like putting yourself into someone else's shoes I think is really important no matter what. It's like you can be a great musician, but if you're not also entertaining to some degree you're not going to rise to the levels that you would like to be at. There's this really famous YouTube video of one of the top violin players from the New York Philharmonic Orchestra or something like that playing in the New York Subway and making like $25 in an hour when really he gets paid like $10,000 for a single performance. And so you know, the contacts that you surround with whatever creative act that you're doing is really important. The showmanship you put around that and so with copy the contacts that you build around your offer through email, through the supporting copy to build it into this thing that gives them something to really latch onto. One of my friends, one of the biggest assets as a performer is a stage. Having a really good stage, a big stage with lights cells and other stuff, dramatically improves your perception in the eyes of the people watching. Kira:   So I love this idea of figuring out if you're connecting as a musician and caring that through to copywriting. How can copywriters know if they are building that connection while they're actually writing and still doing the work. You know after you launch something you know if it converts or not, but while you're doing it and pulling it together are there any questions that you ask yourself to make sure that it is engaging? Jeff:    Reading out loud, I think, is really helpful. It gives that insight. If I'm reading this out loud and I'm bored reading it out loud no one else is going to enjoy this either. I think your, the emotional state from which you write is also really important because ultimately,