TCC Podcast #131: What Copywriters Need to Know About Design with Lori Haller

Direct response designer, Lori Haller, talks all about design and how copywriters can work more effectively with designers in the 131st episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. Lori was also one of the speakers at our recent copywriting event in Brooklyn, TCCIRL (videos available soon). Kira and Rob asked Lori about her processes, how she built her design agency, and all of the following: •  how she got started as a designer •  where her first jobs came from—and how she chose direct response as her niche •  how branding design differs from direct response •  her 3-step read-through process before she designs anything •  how copywriters can improve their working relationships with designers •  what separates the best copywriters from the rest •  how she landed the big name clients she works with •  how copywriters can learn basic design principles •  how she makes sure she has the ideas an attitude she needs to do her best work •  her advice to anyone growing a team •  where she sees copywriting going in the future •  what she does to keep learning and growing If you’ve ever wanted to get more out of your relationship with your designer, this is a good one to add to your podcast play list. To hear it, click the play button below. Or if you like reading more than listening, scroll down for a full transcript.   Most of the people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Jim Rutz Gary Bencivenga Doug D’anna David Deutsch Clayton Makepeace Carline Cole Envisioning Information by Edward Tufte Latrice Eiseman Bonus link to an interview of Lori by John Carlton Lori’s list of design references 3 Step Copy Review and Checklist Lori's website Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Intro: Content (for now) Outro: Gravity   Full Transcript: Rob:   What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes, and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That's what Kira and I do every week at The Copywriter Club Podcast. Kira:   You're invited to join the club for Episode 131 as we chat with direct response Art Director Lori Haller about working with copywriters, the relationship that design and copy share and why they need each other, why she chose direct response as her niche, and how knowing design basics will make you a better copywriter. Welcome, Lori. Rob:   Hey Lori. Lori:   Hey guys. How's it going? Kira:   It's great. Rob:   So good. Kira:   Yeah. Great to have you here, especially to have a designer in the house. Let's kick this off with your story. How did you end up as a designer? Lori:   I knew at an early age that I was in love with visualness, design, fonts. And so I went to training program for a couple years in high school where you had to be picked, it was like some type of tie in with the community college. Then I went to many years of a variety of trainings and college, at different colleges and sites in order to gain access to typography, communications, marketing, design, all that jazz. Then I went right from there into top agencies in Washington, DC. I tried to follow some of the lead art directors of that time and train under their wings for several years. The whole time I wanted my own agency at some point. And finally, about 20, 21 years ago, I decided to leave being a full-time employee and jumping in and starting my own agency. I had already ... I don't know, we might have talked about this Kira, but I'd already done nighttime work and weekend work on the side, all the whole while that I was employed, ramping up for hopefully one day building my client list and being able to go full-time just having my own agency. So luckily, it worked out. Rob:   Yeah, and it has worked out. When you were just starting to do the side projects, where did those projects come from? Was it relationships that you had in the agencies that you're working with? Or did it come some other way? And then how did you develop that into a standalone business? Lori:   Both. People in the agencies, maybe they'd have a little freelance side job, I picked that up. I'd meet people, and they would need something done. The nice thing was I got the training under the wings of all those high-end art directors learning, watching. They were so kind to help me learn all those years, and then be able to bring those skills into my own agency. Kira:   So Lori, when did you realize that you wanted to specialize in direct response? Lori:   This was a big awakening for me. So at first as you know, in just regular agency work, you are designing for design's sake, doing gorgeous designs, type fonts, and stuff like that. But then I guess once they started feeding me campaigns that would get a result, and they would come in and say, ‘The thing that you designed won.’ Or, ‘We got 5,000 more attendees this year than last year Lori.’ And stuff like that. I loved hearing that, and that's when the bug bit me hard I'm sure. Rob:   It's interesting because I think a lot of designers gravitate to the make everything beautiful, and the branding type work, and shy away from the direct response stuff because it has this reputation for being ugly, or kitschy, or whatever. And maybe that's true, although I get a sense that direct response doesn't always have to be ugly. There's all kinds of things that you can do. Talk to us a little bit about the differences between typical branding, beautiful design, and what maybe gets defined as direct response. Lori:   On the typical design, you're designing more so for design's sake. You're making it beautiful, you're still making it speak to a particular audience, I feel. But I think since that's the way my brain works in the direct response, is I love that deep down dive of research, getting to know who you're speaking to, knowing who your prospect is, and then designing just for them. Making that copy and the design speak directly to who you're speaking to in that audience. And that was a lot more difficult, it took a lot more work. Behavioral Science comes in, strategies, processes, of course the fonts, the look, the color, the photos and visuals. So I think I like that bigger challenge, and then the end result, if that all makes sense. Kira:   Yeah. Rob:   Oh yeah. Kira:   When you figured out that you wanted to be an expert in the direct response space, how did you make a name for yourself and build a reputation early on? Lori:   Let's see, I think it probably started happening a lot at KCI Communications, they were financial based publications. And so we would do the direct mail campaigns, and then we would get the results back. They started pairing me with people like Jim Rutz, Gary Bencivenga, Doug D'anna, and Dick Sanders. Then a couple times it happened where the controls were such huge wins, and they would tell me in a meeting or whatever, and just realizing that I had the opportunity to really help that company grow, gain access to more subscribers, or whatever our goal was. Once I saw that ... like one time, Dick Sanders and I did a campaign. It was eight and a half by 11 magalogue for Roger Conrad's Utility forecaster, and it ended up being the biggest winner in the 18 year history of that particular publication. That really excited me, seeing that I had the possibility and growth potential to help the company that I was working with. So that really made a mark and then after that, people started hearing about that. I started getting into health, and beauty, and bringing all those winners with me. I guess that's how it happened. Rob:   What does that interaction look like? When you're working with a copywriter, at what point do you come into a project? I imagine that there's some back and forth where you're making suggestions to the copywriter and ways they can improve the flow of things, but what would a typical project look like if one of us was working with you directly? Lori:   Typically, the client will either contact me or the writer. Sometimes they ask me what writer would I'd like, sometimes they hire the writer and then ask the writer who would they like to design it? But first thing's first, I get my hands on the copy. I do what I call the Lori Haller three step copy read, and that is reading the copy in three specific ways and I'll do it really quickly here with you. That is reading the copy just to read it so that I can get an idea of what the main story is, the idea, the concept. I also understand the offer, and how they're trying to sell the product. And within this copy read, I read it out loud so I can hear it. As you know, copywriters will work on things for two or three months, they've seen it for so long, they can't see a crazy sentence if it was the last thing in their life to do. So, me reading it out loud, me reading it very many times over and over again. So I step into the shoes of the audience. I can find red flags where maybe a sentence, or a section, or the offer just isn't making sense. When I get in the shoes of the reader, I can see the words that are just too difficult, the words that will throw me off, the words that will stop me so I don't want to read any longer. In that first read, I’m circling things, I make a print out. I don't just read it on my computer monitor. I will report back to the copywriter, ‘Hey, I found these areas that aren't making sense to me, it looks like the offer's kind of weak.’ And we go back and forth. It's a trust thing as you can imagine, but they trust me, and I trust them. Then the second time, I jump into the shoes of the audience, and I read it with their eyes, their heart, their mind, and how does it make them feel? So again, I will circle areas that feel cold, areas that are great, they feel hot, they're very connected, and I will talk to the writer about that.