The Copywriter Club Podcast

Seth Godin, renowned entrepreneur and marketer, shares invaluable insights in this podcast, discussing topics such as the two kinds of freelancers, the importance of art, the role of fear in our lives, recognizing genius, and the difference between professionals and hacks. Seth also emphasizes the significance of embracing failure, being a good student, and creating tension in copywriting. This episode is packed with advice for making a change in the world.

Attorney and contract expert, Christina Scalera is our guest for the 114th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. We’re grateful Christina took some time to explain why we (copywriters outside of the EU) might not need to worry too much about stuff like GDPR and what we really should be worried about instead (if you write sales pages, you’ll want to hear what she says). Here’s what we talked about: •  how and why she started the Contract Shop •  the risks of working with generic legal websites or big law firms •  the #1 thing Christina did to grow her business quickly •  the contracts you absolutely need in your business •  what you need to know and what you can safely ignore about GDPR •  what can happen if you don’t have the right contracts in place •  the benefits (besides legal protection) you get from contracts •  the ins and outs of client privacy •  a few things to know about working with affiliates •  legal risks when it comes to sales pages and sharing results • working with subcontractors—what you need to know We covered a lot of tricky topics and Christina helped us understand where we need to spend time reducing our legal risks—and how to do it. Ready to listen? Click the play button below or download this episode to your podcast app. And if you prefer reading, you can scroll down for a full transcript.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: The Contract Shop Profit First Lianna Patch Chanti Zak Ashlyn Carter Shades of Gray Frank Kern Amy Porterfield Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group Intro: Content (for now) Outro: Gravity Full Transcript: Rob:   This podcast is sponsored by The Copywriter Underground. Kira:   It's our new membership designed for you, to help you attract more clients and hit 10k a month consistently. Rob:   For more information or to sign up, go to thecopywriterunderground.com. Kira:   What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes, and their habits, and steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That's what Rob and I do every week at The Copywriter Club Podcast. Rob:   You're invited to join the club for episode 114 as we chat with attorney and founder of The Contract Shop, Christina Scalera, about the importance of contracts, GDPR and other privacy regulations, what we need to know about trademarks, building and growing more than one online business for creatives, and why she collects abstract art. Kira:   Welcome, Christina. Christina:      Hi, guys. Kira:   All right. Great to have you here. Let's kick this off with your story. How did you end up building The Contract Shop? Christina:      Sure, yeah. I got out of law school and I landed my dream job. It was perfect, and it was the job that everybody wanted to get, and I felt so lucky. But unfortunately, a lot of different things were happening at the same time, and I ended up with a couple different health complications and basically had a doctor tell me something had to give. The only thing that I could give was my job. I had to figure out a different way to make a living, and that was where I really stepped into the creative economy that ... Well, not as it exists today, but what we know of it. I decided my first foray into this economy would be as a private yoga teacher, because I had a friend in DC, and she was a former business attorney turned private yoga teacher in DC, and I was living in Atlanta at the time. I was like, ‘Great. I can do that.’ She kind of helped me out with that and everything. But long story short, I didn't make any money. Not a big shocker there. It's hard to make money as a yoga teacher. Not impossible, but difficult. To pay the bills, I kept doing legal work on the side. This yoga studio thing wasn't a total wash. I got a lot of clients that were yoga studios in the area that needed different contracts reviewed, or were doing some licensing, things like that, that I had done in my corporate job. In the process, I felt like ... Maybe you guys have felt this, too, but I was feeling that tug of the mid 20s, quarter-life crisis, like, ‘Okay, I've done all the school. I've done all the things. I've checked all the boxes. What's next?’ I was really on this searching path and kind of stumbled into the creative world maybe that you guys are more familiar with as copywriters working with those kinds of creatives. What I mean by that is The Rising Tide Society was just starting. I think I was one of their first 700 followers, and I was like, ‘Oh, wow, this is really cool. This account has 500 followers overnight.’ Then the next day it had 20,000. It was so crazy to watch. Just got in really early with them, went to some conferences, like Creative at Heart, A Loom with Bonnie Bakhtiari, and just kind of different ... Making things happen. I was just really searching for some kind of answer and solution, what would be what I actually end up doing. It was at these places that I started to meet people. I started to have conversations. I started to talk with people. I started to ask them what their problems were, where they were struggling. Eventually, it would always come out that I was an attorney, and that was when kind of the floodgates opened, so they would ask me all these questions, and they would have all these just needs, and I was like, ‘Wow. This is such an underserved community. This is ridiculous.’ They either are up against these big law firms ... When you Google contract help, you find a big law firm that costs thousands of dollars to help you, or you find LegalZoom. I was like, ‘There has to be some kind of in between.’ I really looked around, and there were a couple people out there that are doing something similar to what I'm doing, but not many, and I felt like I could do it better, honestly. That was really how The Contract Shop started, is just people asking me, ‘Hey, can you work on this thing, but I can't pay you, and I can't afford it,’ and I was like, ‘Well, I'm not going to work for free, so what's an intermediary solution I could give you?’ That was how the templates kind of came about. Rob:   Sweet. You mentioned LegalZoom, and I know a lot of people ... There are others, too, but I know a lot of people sort of rely on them. What's wrong with depending on contracts from LegalZoom as opposed to working directly with an attorney? You also mentioned the expense and the hassle of hiring an attorney from a large firm can be tough. I know you're fitting sort of in the middle, but help us understand sort of the risks and rewards of the other two options. Christina:      Yah, sure. I love this. No one's ever asked me this. Rob:   Oh, good. Christina:      That's why you guys are good copywriters. Yeah, so I don't have a problem with LegalZoom. I think it's a fine solution. I think where I stand out as different and as a better solution is that what I offer to my audience is more tailored to what they're doing. If you go to LegalZoom, from the last time I checked, and I'm not there every day, but last time I saw, they had a general independent contractor template, and that was about as close as it got to what you guys would offer as copywriters, for example, whereas I'm in it every day. I'm working with copywriters. I'm always desperately looking for new copywriters, FYI, but that's a different story. I'm always constantly hiring new employees, independent contractors, and so I'm in it with people, and I have a lot of friends that are copywriters, so I'm constantly hearing about the struggles that they have. I have clients who are copywriters, so I'm constantly seeing what they're coming up against. I'm able to inform my templates with all of that information and feedback in a way that a LegalZoom, I haven't seen. Maybe they're doing this now, but I have never seen them be able to do this on such a personal level. That's something that I really am proud of about our products, is that they are just so personalized to the industries that they serve, and I'm always updating them maybe in a way that bigger companies would just kind of forget about their products, like it's done, it's up there, it's running, good enough, bye. I'm always in there. I'm always like, ‘How can I make this a better product?’ Then as far as big law firms go, I think it's just ... I mean, I feel the struggle of finding a copywriter, but you guys would probably find the struggle finding an attorney, or maybe you've tried to find a good graphic designer or a good web designer or any kind of service provider, and you know how hard that is if you've ever looked in earnest. There's better solutions, thanks to people like you who are educating their audiences and providing these awesome communities for people like me to reach within and kind of try to find someone. But to find an attorney, it's a very difficult thing to do, because you don't necessarily get to see the end result, and in the instance of, say, licensing agreements, you don't really get to see directly how the licensing agreement impacted your business. Was that a good attorney? Was it a bad attorney? It's really, really difficult for somebody who's not an attorney to determine. That's where I really like these templates, is because you're the one who's actually delivering them, and so I can customize them so far, but you can add your voice. You can add your services. You can add your just unique value proposition and special touches to the process, and we try to walk people through and show them how to do that as well when they purchase, just as like a little bonus feature. I think that's the difference between those two other options. Kira:   It sounds like you have an intimate understanding of this creative online space that we're all playing in that probably a lot of attorneys don't understand,

Creative Director and copywriter, Daniel Harmon is one of the brains behind the popular ads for PooPouri, Purple mattresses, Chatbooks and more. In the 113th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, Kira and Rob talk with Daniel about The Harmon Bros. approach to creating advertising that’s calibrated to go viral, demonstrate the product, and sell enough to make a lot of money. Here’s what we covered: •  how growing up on a potato farm led to a career in advertising •  using YouTube to sell a tongue brush, air freshener and mattresses •  how a Huffington Post article gave the Harmon Bros. their name •  the creative process that led to working with Golidlocks •  why they hold “writing retreats” as part of the creative process •  how he (and the HB team) knows when something is truly funny •  how they cast talent for their videos and look for the “comedic X-factor” •  the two levels of hell and how to stay out of both (when it comes to casting) •  what ads need to do at the end of the day—even the funny ones •  how the HB formula works for both humor and serious ads •  what it takes to get hired by an agency like Harmon Brothers •  what it takes to turn “gross” into “gold” •  the course they built to share all of their how-to secrets There’s a ton of great advice, stories and ideas that anyone serious about creating compelling ads (especially those that work in environments like YouTube and Facebook). To hear it all, click the play button below, or download the episode to your favorite podcast app. Or scroll down to read a full transcript.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Orabrush Devin Supertramp Austin Craig Poopouri Harmon Bros. The Goldilocks Ad Studio C The Abe Lincoln Ad Hey Whipple Squeeze This How to write ads that sell  (The HB Course) Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group Intro: Content (for now) Outro: Gravity   Full Transcript: Rob:   This podcast is sponsored by The Copywriter Underground. Kira:   It's our new membership designed for you to help you attract more clients and hit 10K a month consistently. Rob:   For more information or to sign up, go to thecopywriterunderground.com. What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts? Ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes, and their habit, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That's what Kira and I do every week at The Copywriter Club Podcast. Kira:   You're invited to join the club for episode 113 as we chat with the Chief Creative Officer at Harmon Brothers, Daniel Harmon, about storytelling and humor, what it takes to create viral videos that also sell products, building an agency, and what we need to do to create amazing work like the Harmon Brothers. Welcome, Daniel. Daniel:           Thank you. Thanks for having me on, guys. Kira:   All right. Well, why don't we start this off with your story, Daniel, about how you ended up as the Creative Director at Harmon Brothers. Daniel:           My story actually goes back to when I was born. No. Not exactly. I was born in Idaho, Burley, Idaho specifically, and grew up working on the potato farm. This seems tangential, but it's not. I learned to do sales face-to-face before I ever got into selling anything through video or through social media. What I mean by that is in order to earn money, my brothers and I, we would grab a truck that my uncle had and we would fill it full of 50-pound boxes of fresh Idaho potatoes and illegally, I'm sure, drive it down across the Utah border and go door-to-door or street side and sell boxes of potatoes. We would sell a 50-pound box for $20. Utah was a really good market because it wasn't Idaho where everyone already has potatoes and because there's a lot of families there. We figured out that we could make more money selling potatoes door-to-door and face-to-face than we could if we worked minimum wage jobs, you know, as teenagers. The pitch was pretty basic. It was like, ‘Oh, I've just come down from my uncle's farm with a lot of fresh Idaho potatoes that I'm selling to earn money for college,’ or in our case, ‘Earning money to pay for a mission to go and sell for our church. Does your family eat potatoes?’ If they said yes, we're like, ‘Okay. They're $20 for a 50-pound box. Do you want one or two boxes?’ It was basically the pitch. If they said, ‘No, we eat rice,’ then we just kind of moved on with our tail between our legs because we didn't know anything about overcoming objections or anything like that, but it was very successful. We were able to make I think probably double the money that we would have made had we just worked minimum wage jobs. The first vehicle we ever owned was a van that my uncle came down and bought in Utah at auction. He bought it from an old copper mine. It was run to death. It was a 15 passenger Econoline Ford van. Big old white van, industrial strength kind of thing, but it had been beat to death. He bought it for 900 bucks and then he brought it back when he saw that we're having some success and we've been running his trucks into the ground, putting all the miles on. He said, ‘Well, I bought this van and you guys are going to buy it from me.’ We're like, ‘Okay. I guess we'll do that.’ The first vehicle we ever owned was a $900 15 passenger van. This is teenagers. We'd load that thing up with potatoes and we blew the tires on the freeway on a couple of occasions because we didn't want to spend money on replacing bald tires until we were forced to. That was kind of our first jump into sales. Then later on while in college, we went and did a summer sales program where we sold ADT alarm systems door-to-door. Here we learned more about the structure of a sale, that there's an actual structure to it, that's been used over time for basically probably centuries, but certainly decades. We learned how to overcome objections when people bring those up. We learned how to make something very complex like home security systems for people that don't have them, boil it down to something very simple. We were some of the top salesman in the company. We were very successful with that. It was also a job I hated. I always hated going door-to-door, but the money trade-off was worth it to me. Coming back from that, I studied advertising at BYU where I got a degree, where I went to their creative track. I went out and worked in Chicago as a copywriter at DDB Chicago, as well as BSA Partners and worked on brands like McDonald's and Dell and Chicago International Film Festival, with Caterpillar, Harley-Davidson, GE Healthcare, just to name a few, and got a sense of the big agency world and the big city. Really liked the big city overall, but didn't love the commute and kind of got tired of that. At this time, my brothers had co-founded a company called Orabrush, which made a tongue cleaner that helped cure bad breath. It was basically this tongue cleaner that the inventor, Dr. Bob, had tried to peddle online. Well, excuse me. He hadn't tried to peddle online. He tried to peddle it in grocery stores and things like that and had no success. In kind of last stage effort, he took it over to the local university here, BYU, and had them do a study on it and see if it could be sold online. The class basically came back with the conclusion of, ‘Oh, based on our surveys and all this data, it suggested maybe like 7% or 8% of people would be willing to buy a product like this online, so we suggest you just don't do it.’ Then my brother Jeffrey that was kind of hanging out in the back of the class and always just like reading things like TechCrunch and watching YouTube videos and stuff during class, kind of raised his hand. He said, ‘Well, wait a minute. 7% to 8%? That's still millions of people. Why not sell to them?’ Dr. Bob was really excited about this response from him and kind of joined up with him after class and said, ‘Why don't you sell this for me? Why don't you sell the Orabrush for me?’ That led to my brothers Jeffrey and Neal becoming Co-Founders of Orabrush with Dr. Bob where they ended up making a video in order to try to promote the product. They've been driving traffic to the Orabrush sales page, so basically a landing page or sales funnel. They were having some success, but just a little bit. Jeffrey decided to pull a video from YouTube that was a way to test if you had bad breath or not. It used a spoon. It didn't have anything to do with Orabrush, but just putting that video on the landing page increased the conversion rate by like 30%. It really made him think, ‘Man, what if we did this, but was actually branded for Orabrush and we did it as an actual ad?’ They made this really cheap video for Orabrush. It cost about $500 to make. Jeffrey's roommate at the time, this is my brother Jeffrey of course, his roommate at the time was Devin Graham, who is now known as Devin Supertramp online. They shot the video together. He had his other roommate Joel help him make the script really funny. Jeffrey and Devin directed it. They got a coworker, Austin Craig, to be this guy in the lab coat to do the video. They made it and they put that on the website. All of a sudden, everything started converting much better. That's when YouTube launched their platform for ads. This was back when you could buy views for less than a penny. Jeffrey got out in front of it and Orabrush was literally buying up views by the hundreds of thousands. It was probably honestly buying up more than half of the inventory on YouTube at the time. People were getting pretty sick of the ad, but I mean it drove the Orabrush in a big way. The sales really took off. It ended up getting placement in Walmart. Essentially, what happened from there is I mean they went into Walmart. They went into CBS, Walgreens, into retailers all over the world and started getting cited all over the place.

Copywriter Chris Orzechowski is our guest for the 112th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. We met Chris through our friend Kim Schwalm after they got in a bit of a fight over the best kind of clients. Needless to say, we're all friends now, but it was touch and go there for a little while : ). Rob and Kira sat down with Chris to talk about: •  Chris’s path from school teacher and wrestling coach to copywriter •  how he “embraced the suck” to make things work as a marketer •  how his teaching and coaching skills make him a better copywriter •  landing his first “real” clients—what worked and what didn’t work •  the moment he knew things were going to work out •  why you need to treat copywriting like a business and outwork everyone •  the #1 thing copywriters need to do in order to truly succeed •  how to find good retainer clients—exactly what to look for •  how to manage the back and forth with a retainer client •  what Chris charges for retainers and how it’s changed

Erika Lyremark, known as the “business whipstress,” is our guest for the latest episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. Like a few of our other guest experts, Erika doesn’t call herself a copywriter, but she has written her own copy (it’s good) in the past and knows a bit about the business struggle copywriters go through. So Kira and Rob asked her about: •  how she became the “business whipstress” •  her red carpet dream and how to find yours •  how to get clarity around “your thing” in your space •  the importance of clearing clutter (real and imaginary) •  the types of clients she works with and the problems she helps them solve •  the three things to focus on when developing products •  Erika’s creation process and how she goes from idea to glamorous products •  why it’s important to get outside of your bubble when creating your brand •  the biggest takeaways from each step of her career path •  how discipline and structure contribute to her success •  why she doesn’t call herself a copywriter even though she writes a lot of copy •  two things you need to do to establish your authority •  how to get better at selling (and why you should) •  boundaries and how to get comfortable with them Sounds pretty good, right? We think you’ll like this one. To hear it, click the play button below, or download it to your favorite podcast app. Readers scroll down for a full transcript.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Think Like a Stripper (Erika’s book) Mark’d Mastery (Erika’s business program) Autumn Thompkins Laura Belgray Sam Horn Cashvertising Hypnotic Writing Tony Robbins Paul Jarvis Erika on Instagram Srini Rao DailyWhip.com Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group Intro: Content (for now) Outro: Gravity Full Transcript: Rob:   This podcast is sponsored by The Copywriter Underground. Kira:   It's our new membership, designed for you, to help you attract more clients and hit 10K a month consistently. Rob:   For more information or to sign up, go to thecopywriterunderground.com. Rob:   What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes and their habits, then steal an idea or two, to inspire your own work? That's what Kira and I do every week at The Copywriter Club Podcast. Kira:   You are invited to join the club for episode 111, as we chat with author and business coach, Erika Lyremark about how she became a business whipstress, what it takes to truly stand out, writing great copy, even though she doesn't call herself a copywriter and what she has done to up level her business. Kira:   Welcome Erika. Rob:   Hey Erika. Erika: Hello. Kira:   I'm so happy to have you here. You have been a mentor to me for years before I even started my copywriting business so I feel like this is just such a great place to be with you right now. Erika: Well I am very thrilled to be here as well. Kira:   All right. Let's start with your story. How did you end up as a business whipstress? Erika: I don't think that was on my list of occupations when I was a young lady. I wanted to be a race car driver, I wanted to be a doctor, I wanted to be a fashion designer, but I always knew that I wanted to be in charge. Like no matter what I was doing, it's like if I'm not in charge, I actually don't do well. I'm a terrible employee, but if I know that I'm in charge, I actually excel at that. So, I mean, long story short, I'm super nerdy, I love learning. I'm hardcore Type A, I'm super driven. I've always been really really motivated in my life. I'm also highly creative. I've always been really creative. I'm very much left brain, right brain split, so there's one side or the other. It's constantly arguing with the other side. In the 1990s I was a stripper for nine years out in Seattle, Washington, where I live now and in 2001, I left the industry and I moved back to Minneapolis, which is where I grew up, and started a commercial real estate company with my dad. It was really ... there was no intention behind it. It was like, dad I need I job and he's like, okay, I'll give you a job. Just I really want to help you quit stripping and it turned into creating a multi-million dollar commercial real estate investment company, which is still around. I'm no longer involved in the day to day details of it, but I'm still a partner in the company. In 2003, 2004 I loved what I was doing, but I didn't feel stretched creatively and I felt like I had more to give, and what I know about myself is that once I figured something out, I had to do something. I tend to get bored, so it wasn't the kind of career where I could really pour my heart and soul into what I was doing, it was really missing that super high glam, super highly creative side of myself, so I started to think about what else I could do. Long story short, I got this idea from, believe it or not I'm actually embarrassed to say this now, but watching the reality TV show, The Apprentice. The first time I ever watched it, I saw how much the entrepreneurs were struggling and I was like, oh my God, I could totally become a coach and I could help entrepreneurs kick ass. So, that was my original idea. It started out with, I'm going to have a reality TV show, but I don't have any media training. I live in Minneapolis. You know the internet didn't really exist back then, you know there's no social media, so I really was starting with just like this crazy ass dream and this desire in my heart to make a difference and to really do something that I felt like I could really succeed at and it took me seven years to transition into my own company. I went in full time in my own company in 2011 and I've been going strong ever since then. Rob:   So Erika, I think you know that ... we gave away your book at our event in New York, in fact I think you provided those books for the people who were there, which is awesome. As I was reading through your book, you talk a lot about the red carpet dreams. Over and over, it was like pursuing the red carpet dreams. Will you talk a little bit about what the meaning of the red carpet dream is and how important that is for what you have done in your career as well as what maybe we should be aiming for in ours? Erika: Yeah I think people always need a larger vision, a dream that's bigger than them. Something that pulls them, something that pushes them. I think by nature humans are lazy and unmotivated and I feel like the reason I've always been motivated and not lazy is because I have a big imagination. I've just always been willing to go there. Like I can see things for other people that they cannot see. You know, Kira was talking about she's been a client of mine for a long time, and I just see potential and possibility in people everywhere I go and so it's really important for people to play in the role of imagination and to think bigger. It doesn't mean that you have to be working super-duper hard, so you're killing yourself and you're not sleeping at night, and you're not taking care of yourself. But I think it's really important for people to have something that they're working toward, something that drives them, something that motivates them. There's definitely been times in my life where I was no longer in alignment with my red carpet dream and so I suffered as a consequence of that. So as part of my own survival strategy and my own success plan, it's always really important for me to have big dreams and have big goals, and to have big desires. Kira:   Erika, you know you mentioned that you knew from the beginning, probably from a young age, that you loved to be in charge. That's how you run your business, that's why people love you, because they want you to tell them what to do and so they pay you for that, happily. You had that clarity early on, but I feel like a lot of copywriters still are trying to figure that out. Like, what do I do well? What should be my thing within the copywriting space? So what advice would you give to them when they're struggling to figure out what that is? Erika: Well something that has helped me immensely is to develop viewpoints and what is your way of doing things? When I realized that I had this particular way of moving through the world that was unique to the way other people moved through the world, I mean it's me being bossy. I've been bossy my entire life. When people say, I'm not bossy, I'm the boss, I'm like, no I'm bossy and I'm the boss. It's just really being unapologetic about who you are and not everybody is bossy, but everybody has a different way or a different way that they move through the world. So, I've almost always had some sort of copywriter on retainer or hired copywriters for different projects to help me. As you know, Kira, I run a ton of copy in my business and there's just no way that I could do everything that I do all by myself. There's a writer that I work with from time to time, I used to work with her more in the past. Her name's Elle, and Elle is this fantastic researcher. I was like Elle, what do you think about this, or what's your view point on this? And she will come back with the most incredible report because research is a huge gift that she has. So it's really paying attention and looking for the gifts that you have and then being unapologetic about them, and then developing viewpoints as a result of that. For people who just meet me, it's very easy for someone to say, oh she knows who she is and she knows what she wants, but it took me a long time to be who I am, and a huge part of that is developing the viewpoint, it's being unapologetic about who you already are and then being more of that person and then also one of my firm beliefs and one of my firm values is clearing clutter. Whether that's energetic clutter, whether that's physical clutter.

There’s a lot of talk lately about money mindset and “blocks” that keep you from achieving the success you want. In this episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, Kira and Rob talk with the Queen of Passive Income, Colleen Arneil, about money mindset and how to discover the mind trash that is holding us back. We talked about: •  her path from psychology to money mindset coach •  why we don’t finish the majority of training programs we start •  why money mindset is important even if you think it’s woo-woo •  a few of the most common “money blocks” and why we get stuck in them •  some of the questions to ask to figure out your money blocks •  how to move past negative feelings from pressing financial needs •  how Colleen became the passive income queen •  how to build passive income into our businesses •  what she would say to people who think passive income is “easy” •  selling the transformation that a client gets •  how to you earn your authority (it helps to have a niche) •  the importance of “self care” and how Colleen approaches it Some pretty good advice in this one. To listen, click the play button below or download it to your favorite podcast app. Want to read it instead? Scroll down for a full transcript.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Colleen’s website Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group Intro: Content (for now) Outro: Gravity   Full Transcript: Kira:   What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work process, and their habits? Then, steal an idea or two to inspire your own work. That's what Rob and I do every week at The Copywriter Club Podcast. Rob:   You're invited to join the club for episode 110 as we chat with course creation expert and money mindset coach, Colleen Arneil about how she became the passive income queen, why money mindset is so important, even if you think that it's a little woo-woo, building passive income into our businesses, and how copywriters can build their authority and expertise. Kira:   Colleen, welcome. Colleen:        Thank you so much for having me. Kira:   We’re glad you're here. It's a pleasure to have you here. We've worked together in the past. I know so many copywriters really are working on their money mindset. Even if they don't know they need it, we know that they need it based on the questions they're asking us on a regular basis. Let's just jump into your story. How did you end up as a money mindset coach? Colleen:        It's actually a roundabout way. When I was younger, I always thought I was going to be a psychologist, so I went to university, I did my undergrad, went onto grad school, did my Master’s in clinical. As I was almost done with my PhD, I had this awakening, at least in the traditional sense of being a psychologist, it wasn't the right path for me. I'd come so far, I just finished out my degree. Then, I launched an e-commerce program online and love customer service, passionate about it. That's where I started in the online field. What I noticed as I was taking courses to learn how to market and grow my e-commerce business was there was some people who could teach programs in an amazing way and other people who had so much knowledge, but they just didn't know how to share that information to actually get people results and help get them transformation. I had spent a lot of years at the university level lecturing and teaching. I just got really inspired to be like, ‘Okay, I need to help people better understand how they can create their curriculums and develop their programs and share their information so that it's a really positive experience and people get results.’ I transitioned out of my e-com business and that's how I first came online and was teaching a strategy part. What I noticed was happening was a lot of my students weren't getting to the end result. Either they were going down a rabbit hole and never finishing their courses or they had a course or they were just not getting out there and selling it. For a long time, I took that on personally as I think a lot of us tend to do. Then, I realized, ‘Oh, this actually isn't about the program. It's not about me not showing up and supporting them. It's that they're getting in their own way and there's a lot of fears and beliefs that are tripping up their journey.’ That was when I created my first money mindset program and started to really incorporate a lot more of it in the work that I do. Rob:   Colleen, I've heard the statistic that only 4% of people who buy courses actually finish globally. That probably includes a lot of those free courses and that kind of thing. That is a minuscule number of people given how much money people pay for courses. What are those fears and beliefs that are getting in the way of us completing a course or training or university class or whatever that thing is that's keeping us from doing our work? Colleen:        Yeah, absolutely. What happens is consciously we have this desire for some kind of transformation. Whatever area of our life it happens to be in, right? We know we have a goal. There's something we want to create. It's one thing when we set that intention one day and it doesn't have to appear in three seconds obviously. If we've been working towards it for a while, and it's still not happening, or we're not able to create consistent progress in that, right? Maybe we step forward, but then we take 10 steps back. That kind of thing. What that usually means is there's some kind of resistance that's there. We often talk about money blocks. Money blocks are basically these subconscious ... They don't hang out in our conscious awareness, but these subconscious beliefs and fears that are tripping up our process of actually making things happen. To give you a few examples of like super common ones. One might be, ‘I have to work hard to make money.’ It's a really simple one. We're often taught that as kids. It's really important to have this strong work ethic and to hustle and apply yourself. On a lot of levels, it sounds like a really positive quality, but you can see how holding that belief could, at the same time, then create this incredible sense of overwhelms and things have to be difficult and you have to be pouring hours and hours and hours in for any money you're making to be aligned with that belief. That's one really common belief. I think another one that comes up for people is people won't pay for that is another really common one. ‘People won't pay for that.’ Would anyone really pay for this? That's also a belief that's tripping you up, because if you don't believe that people are going to pay for it, then guess what? You're going to have that mirrored back to you and people are going to look at you sideways and think, ‘Well, I could just get this information for free.’ The truth is people don't pay for information. They never do. They pay for a transformation. When you create programs or done-for-you services or coach, or whatever your modality happens to be, what you're doing is presenting information in a systematic way that is actually designed to support them in taking action to create transformation. That packaged system, people are always going to pay to have them fast-track towards it. If people aren't willing to pay, then usually it's a question of how much have you shown them value around that. It's not, ‘Therefore, I can't do this because I offered it once and no one wants to buy it.’ That's a belief that can drive. There's a ton. Another last common one is, ‘There's somebody else doing that so there's no point in me doing it.’ We might not normally think of that as a money block, but it is. It's something that trips us up. It gets in our way of confidently taking action to share our message and share our offers, when the reality is there's room for everyone in this world. We all need to hear a message. Or we all connect differently with different people saying that message so that we can ultimately get to where we want to go. Kira:   These are hitting home for me already, especially the first one. I have to work hard to make money.This is what I'm currently struggling with. What would you say to a copywriter listening who may be struggling with one of those beliefs that you shared? Or maybe all of them, like me. Once we're aware that we have this belief and it's hurting us potentially, what can we do to change it? Colleen:        One of the first things I like to go towards is looking at the story that you're telling yourself. There's always going to be some kind of reason. When I say it, completely honestly, an excuse. There are often excuses that we make. Some kind of excuse we're making about why our reality is the way it happens to be. That's the first place to start is going, ‘Okay. What exactly is it that I'm telling myself about why I feel like I have to work so hard?’ Okay. ‘What evidence do I have in life of maybe when was I rewarded for working hard?’ ‘When was I told that this was a good thing?’ ‘Do I judge people who don't work hard?’ How are you feeling about people who aren't working as hard and earning? Because that's important. Because whatever we judge, we cannot welcome back into our own world. Super, super important. You want to watch, not because judgements make you a bad person. Just that they're a golden source of information and you want to take that and leverage that. The other thing I always say and this is so powerful, but when we're stuck on a belief or we're stuck in a pattern ... It shows up, those beliefs just show up as usually behavioral patterns is how we can start to recognize them in our day-to-day life because beliefs are intangible, right? When you see yourself in a pattern like that, and you know for example, that you're overworking, you want to ask yourself what the payoff is.

Comedy writer Eric Cunningham talks about what it takes to be funny with Kira and Rob for the 109th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. A lot of writers dream of working for comedy shows like Saturday Night Live or one of the late night shows. But there’s a lot of competition and success isn’t guaranteed. What does that have to do with copywriting? It turns out, quite a lot. We talked to Eric about: •  the career path to become a comedy writer and what it takes to succeed •  how to deal with the up and down of project work •  what a day in the life of a comedy writer looks like •  how to stand out in a competitive space •  why you can’t wait to be chosen and what to do instead •  what sets the successful comedy writers apart from those who fail •  what does it take to be funny (and what we can do to be funnier) •  why he says “Yes” to lots of things (including condo board meetings) •  why copywriters should use more humor in their copy •  the one thing he has done to up-level his career •  where comedy is headed in the future We had some technical difficulties half way through the show but it doesn’t affect the excellent advice Eric shares about what it takes to succeed in the world of comedy—and copy. Listen by clicking the play button below. Or subscribe on your favorite podcast app (we like Overcast). Prefer to read? Scroll down for a full transcript.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Streaks Eric’s Twitter Upright Citizen Brigade Theater Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group Intro: Content (for now) Outro: Gravity Full Transcript: Rob:   What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That's what Kira and I do every week at The Copywriter Club Podcast. Kira:   You are invited to join our club for Episode 109 as we chat with comedy writer Eric Cunningham about writing for TV outlets like Comedy Central and TruTV. What it takes to stay sharp as a comedy writer, his writing process and what we might borrow from it, and what it all has to do with copywriting. Welcome Eric. Rob:   Hey Eric. Eric:   Hello! Thanks for having me. Kira:   I'm so excited to have you here. I was just telling Rob, Eric is a good friend. He's close to home. He's a fellow New Yorker, and I've known him for a while and he's married to one of my best friends. So, this is a very special interview. I'm really excited that you're here. Rob:   Don't blow it Eric. Kira:   Yeah. No pressure! Eric:   What if this ruins a friendship? A long lasting .. Kira:   Right! Yeah, just to have you here as a comedy writer and someone's who's really outside of our space as copywriters and what we're doing, I feel like there's a lot we can learn from what you do day to day and just your experience so far. So, let's kick this off with your story. How did you end up as a comedy writer? Eric:   Sure, so I was not a funny child at all. I was like a big nerd and, you know, liked politics and all that stuff. And then, in college, I was kind of like looking for my thing and I couldn't find it because my whole thing growing up was being smart and then when you go to college, you're surrounded by all smart people, and then I was like oh, I don't have a thing anymore. So, I was just desperately looking for something that would differentiate myself a little bit, or just like find a home. And, they were taking columnists at the school newspaper and I was like, I don't have the attention span to write a full column, so I'll just write ... essentially this is ... I mean this is how old I am. It was basically Twitter before Twitter was there. It was just like short little one liner observational jokes that were not associated with anything else and just like here’s joke, here's a joke, here’s a joke. And, they published it, and people really liked it and it was different from all the other columns because it didn't have any kind of through line. It was just assorted thoughts and jokes about like the dining halls and other useless junk. But, it was received well and I was like, oh, I guess this will be my thing. From that, when I was graduating, I was like, I want to work at Saturday Night Live and decided to try for the NBC Page program which is a nice entry level position in the pipeline. I didn't end up getting it, but I was like I'm going to move to New York anyway and figure it out and started taking classes at the Upright Citizens Brigade Theater and did all their improv and sketch. Got my first job in television, entry level, as a TV watcher for an old show called Best Week Ever, which is so fun. You would essentially do book reports, but about the Tyra Banks Show. It was very fun and from then, you just more and more other television shows and jobs and now I have my own show at the Upright Citizen Brigade Theater. I'm writing different scripts and just doing comedy. That's kind of my whole thing in a nutshell. Hopefully it wasn't too long and blathery. Rob:   We like long and blathery, actually. But I'm curious, if somebody was wanting to follow your path ... maybe even a little farther along, they're not in high school or they're not in college, but hey, I want to get involved in comedy. I think it would be fun to write. Maybe not for Saturday Night Live, but for the local comedy theater or that kind of thing. Could they follow the same path, or are there things that you would recommend they do that maybe you missed out on, or would do differently? Eric:   Yeah, I mean I think the one sort of question I do get asked a lot by people who are trying to do comedy is sort of like what the path is. It's so cliché, you've heard it a thousand times. There's no set path. The one thing I do encourage people to do is to find that thing that you love doing and nobody else is doing. So for example you know, if you ... one thing I don't get at all, Instagram stories. I'm not an Instagram story comedian and I don't really get it. But, if that's something that's attractive to you..and you're like, oh I really like Instagram story comedians and that kind of thing, then that should be a clue. You should go down that road, you're going to find a lot of success versus if I tell you, like, you should be tweeting 10 times a day. And, you don't like Twitter, well, you're going to be bad at it and it's not going to work, even if you put in all the effort. You should go after something that you really love and you're naturally drawn to. Even if it doesn't make a lot of sense or if you don't know why or can't see, like oh, I'll do this and then I'll get this, then I'll get this and I'll finally be happy. Like, that'll never happen. Just kind of go for it. Rob:   So, talk a little about the work ethic. Because I imagine this isn't the kind of thing where you get a job and you're just kind of showing up and the next level appears. It feels like this is the kind of thing that... because there's so many people that would love this kind of a job that you've really got to put in effort. So, talk about that. What did it really take to make you succeed in those first couple of jobs. Eric:   My very first job was working at Best Week Ever. It was very entry-level. I was a PA, so a lot of it was getting props when, you know, if we did a sketch and somebody needed like one of those tiny rings that holds a little bit of poison in it, from like the old Victorian Era. They were like, we need that prop. Can you go find one? It's like, oh yeah, we'll have to go find that. But, work ethic wise, you have to like, just do the one job you've been assigned to do and knock it out of the park. I think a lot of times in those very entry level jobs, one thing I'd recommend to people, is don't try to like, audition for you know a better job right away. Make sure you're doing your job correctly first and then people will take a shine to your other ambition. Especially in the entertainment industry, if you've an assistant, do the assistant job well, and then the person you're helping will try to help you. Versus, if you're not doing your assistant job well but you are essentially trying to do stand up comedy all the time in the middle of a meeting, that isn't going to bode well for you. But, work ethic wise, you just have to produce a lot of stuff constantly because you're right. There's so many people that want these jobs. Every job is hyper competitive. You've against 20 other people, 100 other people, sometimes more. And you just have to constantly do it. Also once you get the job, these contracts are so short. You're like well even if I hit a home run, the show could get canceled at the end of the season or I could get fired at the end of the season. Or, they're changing the direction of the show and they don't need writers like me anymore. So, even once you've quote, unquote arrived, you would find yourself right back where you started, so you've kind of never feel super satisfied or safe, I don't think. You've always thinking, well, if this doesn't work, what's my next thing. Kira:   Yeah, and I'd love to hear more about that because I think that's what similar with what you're doing is kind of jumping from gig to gig and it's not always a straight path and I imagine there are moments where it's frustrating because your show is canceled even though you did a great job on it. In a similar way, with copywriters, so many of us work project to project and we depend on having a system in place with leads, but sometimes we just have a really quiet month. So, how do you stay focused and not give up and kind of carve that path when there really isn't a path laid out in front of you.

Copywriter, coach and former defense attorney, Linda Perry is our guest for the 108th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. Linda’s career hasn’t followed the typical marketing to copywriting track. She’s spent time in prisons and courtrooms around the country, honing her skills for empathy and persuasion. Add in serious training as a coach and she’s got plenty of copywriting advice to share. We talked with Linda about: •  how she went from defense attorney to copywriter •  how her legal background makes her a more persuasive copywriter •  her experiment with life coaching and the impact it had on her writing •  the “suitcase” exercise that helps with the next evolutionary leap •  the “one thing” that has helped her uplevel her career •  the run-down on the StoryBrand framework and how it’s 4x-ed her business •  what keeps her focused and on-message •  a deeper look at her on-boarding process •  what her kick-off calls look like and the information she gets there •  how she’s using Instagram and video to get in front of her clients •  the behind-the-scenes with her video creation process •  the questions she’s asking about where her business will go this year •  what’s working for Linda in social media •  the mindset mistakes copywriters are making today •  the “what-if” beliefs that are real and those that aren’t •  what she’s most excited about in her own business This is not an exhaustive list of all the stuff we covered, so you’re going to want to download this to your podcast player to hear it all. Or just click the play button below. If you prefer reading, scroll down for a full transcript.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Debbie Ford Marie Forleo Amy Porterfield StoryBrand Zoom The Slight Edge by Jeff Olson Tony Robbins Soul Genius Branding Linda on Instagram Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group Intro: Content (for now) Outro: Gravity   Full Transcript: Kira:   What if you could hang out was seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, the work processes and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That's what Rob and I do every week at The Copywriter Club Podcast. Rob:   You're invited to join the club for Episode 108, as we chat with copywriter, brand strategist, and coach, Linda Perry, about why she made the jump from prosecutor to copywriter, the processes she uses to clarify her client's messaging as well as the importance of getting the right mindset and how hidden beliefs can sabotage your success. Kira:   Linda, welcome. Rob:   Hey, Linda. Linda:    Hey guys, thank you for having me. Kira:   I feel like, prosecutor to copywriter that sounds like a podcast. I feel like you should get that started. Rob:   That does sound like a podcast, more than just an interview. Linda:    Right. I hate to burst your bubble guys but I was defense attorney. Rob:   Oh no! We've ruined the intro. Linda:    It doesn't have the same ring to it, too. Kira:   Linda, let's start with your story and how you ended up as a copywriter. Linda:    I definitely don't have traditional path, but I feel like even though I was a defense attorney, the seeds of being a copywriter literally started when I was like six years old. I think I gave every stuffed animal, every Barbie, every car, a story. I was always really wrapped up in the storytelling part of life. I always wanted to be a copywriter but with immigrant parents that we're like, ‘No, no. You need a profession’, I went and became a lawyer. Part of what I loved about being a lawyer was really my paper walk through the door before I did. It was always about telling someone's stories. After 17 years of being a criminal defense attorney, you get tired, you get a little worn out. I really started to think about who is it that I want to be. With a little life coaching background, I pursued life coaching really changed a bit of my beliefs about what I thought had to happen in my life. I recognize that I really love giving people a voice, and I wanted to do it in a different way. I took the leap somewhere around the age of 40, and just decided it was time to pursue what I had always really wanted to do from even being a little kid. It's a bit of a strange road but it's been perfect for me. Kira:   Okay. We've already talked about this before, but we both really loved Barbies growing up, which is now not cool, like it's not PC to say that because Barbies are not in anymore. Rob:   We should clarify just a second, when you say ‘we both’, you're talking about you and Linda, not Kira and Rob because I wasn’t really…. Kira:   No, the three of us have talked about this many times. Yes, Linda and I have talked about this. I want to hear, you glossed over it, but you mentioned that's ... you created these stories around Barbies and other toys growing up. I'm not sure what my question is here, but I want to hear more about that and then how you do that today in your business. Linda:    I think I just ... I had a really active imagination when I was a kid. I just loved giving them a world that they lived in. I wanted to know how they thought, what they were doing, what really made them tick. I can literally remember at the age of six just creating a whole, maybe it's almost like soap opera like where they had this whole community and lived, each of them had their own personality. The way it translates into my life today is that I still think I dig deep into what's driving people. What is it that really, what gives them purpose, what gives them the drive to go after something? I think that translates into the way I approach working with clients or even all my copy or whatever I write. I always think it has its seeds. It made me more creative. I wanted the Barbie upground pool and I didn't get it. I had to really work my way around it. I had to sell myself really on this bucket becoming.... she had a different kind of pool. That’s kind of the way I think Barbie influences me still to this day. Rob:   That's funny. Linda, I'm really interested in the aspect of your career, the legal part of your career and how that's impacted how you write copy, because it seems like there's so many things in law that translates to what we do in copywriting research and writing out either briefs or oral arguments or those kinds of things. How would you say that being an attorney has made you a better copywriter? Linda:    I think in every way. I think about it every day how my process for writing or defending a client is really not that different from really representing someone's brand. I started ... one of the things I loved about being a criminal defense attorney is you had to learn something new every day and you had to learn it fast. One day it was mortgage fraud, one day it was, the next was immigration, or maybe a drug case, but you had to really dive in and understand the process so that you could actually write about it so you could convince somebody of your version of the story. I should say also you had to read a jury. You had to really understand what somebody's thinking, how do you convince somebody? What is it that maybe will impact them the most? That kind of stuff being a trial attorney translates so perfectly into what I do today because it's the same approach. I start out by looking at what really is the problem that your ideal client's facing. What is it that really motivates them? I am really good at standing in that person's shoes because of it, because when you’re a trial attorney, you have to stand in everybody's shoes so you could tell. As my former partner used to say, so you could play the movie for somebody. I still think I do that with my process in that I started out, we're really looking at what's the problem, what motivates somebody, what's really the objections they're going through, and then you research, and then you can finally start to write. I'm always living as that person. I think it really helped being an attorney and it's the perfect transition to what I do today. Rob:   Talk about that transition as well. What were the first copywriting clients like? How did you find them? Did you stop being an attorney and then started being a copywriter? Did you ease into it? What was the transition like? Linda:    I think like a lot of people I had a period of exploration. I didn't hop right into copywriting. I actually went and explored life coaching for a while. I had followed the work of best-selling author, Debbie Ford, and I chose to dive into her program and watched it really change my life. Life coaching gave me the courage to leave law. It was a safe place for me. I was a rock star. I had a great career. Life coaching gave me the courage to start to explore what I loved. What happened though when I became a life coach is that I recognize that about 80% of them fail. I went, ‘Why is that?’ Of course a lawyer had to be like, ‘Well, let's go research that.’ What it really came down to is that a lot of life coaches or people in the wellness industry really don't know how to share what they do in a unique way. I started out slowly with my own brand and I started to really learn what does it take to actually share your message. I would take whosever course I could find and really learn about how do I stand up. I do some of Marie Forleo's work. I just really start slowly in ... I'd follow Amy Porterfield. I would start to follow people and try to understand what it meant to share your message. Then as my business grew with life coaching, a lot of other life coaches came to me and said, ‘How did you do that? Can you help me?’ All of a sudden I found myself writing and helping other coaches and it was ... I was wearing my superwoman cape and thinking, ‘Hey, I could run two businesses at the same time.’ Again getting burnt out,

Just a short introduction to The Copywriter Underground and an invitation to join our first-ever hot seat call for members of The Copywriter Club. To learn more, go to thecopywriterclub.com/tcu. Click the play button below. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: The Copywriter Underground Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group Intro: Content (for now) Outro: Gravity Because this episode is simply an introduction to The Copywriter Underground and the special hot set webinar next Tuesday, there is no transcript for this one.

Copywriter Joel Klettke shares his thoughts with Kira and Rob about how copywriters like to show off only the best parts of their business and how that affects other writers struggling to make things work. It’s a great discussion, but we covered a lot more than that. Here’s a look at what you'll hear in this 107th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast: •  what he’s doing and how his business (and life) has changed in the past year •  how audits and research have impacted his business •  what Joel does in an audit and how he prices them for his clients •  how he sells the audit and then hands it off to the client or another writer •  why he’s taking on fewer projects and the season of “no” •  the instagram-ification of some copywriter’s businesses—and why it hurts •  why we end up chasing the wrong goals (and maybe what to do instead) •  what to do if you aren’t performing as well as you think you should •  what is “enough” •  a few ideas for building confidence and the impact on your business •  the biggest mistakes copywriters make that ruin your conversion rates •  his advice to new dads and why you might need “guilt cancelling headphones” To get the low-down on how Joel’s business has changed since the first time we talked to him more than a year ago, click the play button below. Or if you’re the reading type (and lots of copywriters are) scroll down for a full transcript. And you should be able to find it on your favorite podcast app as well.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Joel’s first interview Joanna Wiebe Case Study Buddy Chantelle Zakarisian Val Geisler Laura Belgray Joels’ Conversion Killers Presentation Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group Intro: Content (for now) Outro: Gravity   Full Transcript: Rob:   What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes, and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That's what Kira and I do every week at The Copywriter Club Podcast. Kira:   You're invited to join a club for Episode 107 as we chat for a second time with freelance copywriter and case study specialist Joel Klettke about what he's accomplished in the year since we last talked. What it really takes to grown and run a six figure business, balancing copywriting with building a second business and being a new dad, and the biggest conversion killing mistakes copywriters make. Kira:   Welcome Joel. Rob:   Hey Joel. Joel:   Hey guys, thanks so much for having me. Kira:   Yeah it's great to have you back. All right, so let's kick this off Joel with what you've been working on over the last year. What's changed for you? We know quite a bit has changed for you, but what's changed since the last time that we had you on the show? Joel:   I kind of started off the year, I made the promise to myself I said, ‘I'm going to step back from the copy projects, and I'm going to press into the case study business, and focus on growing that.’ And so, that was kind of my mental goal. I thought, ‘Yeah I need to see what I've got in that.’ And that went well for all of like 10 minutes, and then projects cross your desk, and it's difficult to say no. But, I have kind of stepped back a little bit from writing. I'm taking on fewer but bigger projects now, which was a big goal of mine. But I think obviously the most significant change is now I'm a dad, so I've got a little guy in the house, and learning to work, and live, and adjust my sleep schedules and life in general around this little person, which is pretty interesting. And then the other side of it on a totally different side of things, I looked up kind of midway through the year and realized outside of case studies, and outside of my writing projects I've actually made more money, and had more work on the audits and review side of things, which was a surprise even to me, because it wasn't something I really willfully thought, ‘You know I'm really going to spin this up and focus a ton on these audits and reviews.’ It just sort of started snowballing. And so, now I'm in a place where big life changes, potential shifts in the way I spend my time in my work, so quite a lot going on. Quite a lot to kind of grapple with, and a lot to be excited about too. Rob:   Just for context Joel, do you mind talking a little bit about what the auditing and those services that you're doing that you weren't necessarily expecting to be a big contribute to your business. Tell us about those kind of projects, what you do, how they come to you and what you are helping clients accomplish. Joel:   Yeah, definitely. So, I've always been a proponent of to be good in this business, especially when it comes to the conversion side of copywriting, you can't just be a good writer. It's not enough to just be good with words, or to be a wordsmith and make things sound nice, you have to be really good at the research part. You have to care about getting it right, and doing the research, and analyzing data both qualitative and quantitative. And so, part of my process for a long time with projects has been this research phase where we do things like look at heat maps, and recorded user sessions. We survey their customers. We interview customers. We talk to their internal team. We talk to their chat logs. And so, for the longest time that was always just phase one of bigger projects. And then as I started kind of venturing into an area where now there's kind of a pretty significant contingent of businesses, you know small businesses, and even some smaller midsize businesses that can't necessarily afford to have me on a full project, but there's projects I was interested in, wanting to engage on. And so, I came to them and said, ‘Well, instead of having me put together all your pages, and do the writing, and the wire framing, I could give you the research portion, analyze what you've got, make recommendations for what I would change, and you can take that and do with it what you will.’ And so, these audits and reviews, what I'm doing now yes I'm assessing the copy and the messaging, but it's more than that. I'm looking at identifying, okay where are obvious obstacles to conversion based on the way people interact with your site and your information? How do we fix those? And then handing them kind of a blueprint of next steps for what to do with that, and how to action that. So, it's become even though it's still phase one of projects, it's now become kind of a stand-alone thing that I'm able to offer at different tiers and levels. Everything from quick little video reviews to these full blown 5,000 plus word reports. But I'm really enjoying it, and I'm loving kind of the forensic, detective side of looking at a site and trying to figure out what's wrong, and how to fix it both with words and sometimes UX, and other elements too. Rob:   You mentioned the tiers, I'm curious how you price that for your clients. Joel:   Yeah, so I wanted to have a tier that was really accessible. I wanted to be able to say, I have five spots open for audits this month. And I wanted to be able to sell that out quickly. And so, kind of on the bottom end, kind of right now it's a video review where I send them a brief, they fill it out as best they can with the details they have. We go in knowing, nobody's kidding themselves, we're not pretending this is a data driven audit I'm doing, but they're counting on my experience and my ability to kind of sniff out big obvious problems, that's the goal with these ones. So for that, I started billing really low, so I was first charging kind of like $250 for those. And I've kind of been testing the ceiling on that. I know now that I can close those at around $900. So everything from that, which is still within reach for a lot of businesses, to some of theses deep dive audits where they're multi-week affairs, we're talking to a lot of people, we're doing a lot of things, those can be anywhere from on the lower end $5,000 to $7,500 and up, just depending on how much we're analyzing what the end deliverable is. So, it kind of runs the gamete what companies are interested in, but especially that bottom tier has been really popular because it's a way for companies just to get a sense of what they can do next and action on it. Kira:   Can you talk through the deep dive audit and what that looks like in more detail? Joel:   Yeah. So, the things that I just talked about with regard to qualitative and quantitative when it comes to a deep dive audit, the difference when you look at a video review there's just the brief, and sometimes I throw in a bit of ... I might look at their Google search console for kicks, and that's it. And it takes me maybe an hour or two in the morning, I'm done, I get on with my day. With a deep dive audit usually they're larger sites, they're more nuanced problems, we look at more pages, we look at more specifically quantitative data, so those types of companies usually are measuring with varying degrees of accuracy what's actually happening on the site. So, the deep dive audit I just bring in more of those data points. So on the bottom end it's just a brief and maybe one other thing. On the other side of things that's where it's that full surveys, and interviews, and 100 plus recorded sessions, and Google analytics, and if they have VWO we're looking at that. And maybe we're running a survey and I'm analyzing 100, 200 responses. The other piece that changes is the deliverable too. So, if I don't have to write up a deliverable that obviously saves me a ton of time. An interesting thing I've kind of found is people tend to value ... I could send somebody a deliverable that would take them an hour to sit down and read, or literally two hours of video and people will still prefer to just watch the videos. So,