TCC Podcast: Creating tension and genius with Seth Godin

Seth Godin is the guest on this special un-numbered episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. Of course, Seth needs no introduction. He has inspired millions of entrepreneurs, marketers and freelancers to think bigger about the change they want to make in the world and to create products and services that aren’t mediocre, but rather aim to change the world—even if they fail. Rob and Kira asked Seth about: •  the two kinds of freelancers (and which one you want to be) •  the enemy inside that most freelancers have to work against •  the kind of work you need to do for yourself when you’re not working for clients •  the real meaning of art and why we need to do more of it •  the most important skills to develop as a freelancer •  the role of fear in our lives and how it impacts the work we do •  the importance of “smallest viable audience” •  being uncomfortable and creating tension •  why it’s always your turn •  the right time to ship (and why you’re already waiting too long) •  the difference between professionals and hacks •  genius and the imposter complex •  recognizing genius and getting it into the world •  what Seth has done “a lousy job” with •  what copywriters and others do that drive Seth crazy •  how to be a better student of the things we need to know •  why there isn’t just “one thing” that you need to do to make your business go This one is full of great advice and ideas for thinking about how you make a change in the world. We really loved Seth’s answer about learning and trying to get more important stuff on your plate. Want to hear it? Click the play button below, or download the episode to your favorite podcast app. You can also scroll down for a full transcript.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Jay Abraham Margo Aaron Permission Marketing St. Luke’s Akimbo Podcast This is Marketing (Seth’s new book) Kind of Blue AltMBA The Marketing Seminar Clayton Christensen Lester Wunderman Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group Intro: Content (for now) Outro: Gravity   Full Transcript: Rob:   This podcast is sponsored by The Copywriter Underground. Kira:   It's our new membership designed for you to help you attract more clients and hit 10K a month consistently. Rob:   For more information or to sign up go to thecopywriterunderground.com. Kira:   What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and experts? Ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes, and their habits, then steal and idea or two to inspire your own work? That's what Rob and I do every week at The Copywriter Club Podcast. Rob:   You're invited to join the club for a special unnumbered episode as we chat with author, entrepreneur, and influential business thinker, Seth Godin about freelancing and creating brilliant work, embracing genius, how to know when and what to ship, what permission marketing means today, and the impact of showing up online every single day for more than 20 years. Kira:   Seth, welcome. Rob:   Hey, Seth. Seth:  Thanks. Great to talk to you guys. Kira:   We're very excited and honored that you're a part of our show. Before we start recording, we just shared with you that you've been such a big influence in our careers and also in creating The Copywriter Club. So my palms are sweaty and I am thrilled that you're here. Seth:  All right. Well, I'll do my best. That's a pretty high expectation, but we'll see what happens. Rob:   You're going to deliver. We feel good about this, so. Kira:   So, to kick this off, you talk about becoming a category of one on your own podcast, and you mentioned doing quirky work. That really stood out to me. What does that mean and how can freelancers do that? Seth:  Well, there's two kinds of freelancers. There are freelancers who seek to have a job without a boss, that's most freelancers. And then there's freelancers who actually make a living, make an impact, bend the curve. It's fun to talk about being the second kind, but there's a cost to it. I think distinguishing between the two is really important. More than ever because there are laptops, because there's an internet. More than ever people feel like they can make a living on their own in the world. That plenty of people who are professional copywriters used to be on the client side and then they go, ‘Whoa, I just paid that person a thousand dollars if I only did that 60 times a year, I could make a living.’ And so off they go. Their motto is ‘You can hire anyone and I'm anyone.’ The problem with that motto is it's based on a mindset of scarcity. A scarcity of information, a scarcity of choice, the scarcity that comes from geography. And in my little town, there's only one florist. So yeah, if you want flowers you have to buy it from the florist, but it's not true for copywriters. There's no scarcity. The alternative is to do the scary work of intentionally not being in the middle, intentionally not saying to the client, ‘What would you like? I'm happy to do it for you.’ Because if that's your approach, then they'll just find someone cheaper than you. Whereas the alternative is, ‘No, this is my work. This is how I do my work. I'm the one and only at this work and if you want this work, that's what you get from me.’ That's different. It's a whole different way of being in the marketplace. Rob:   Can we talk a little bit about that other kind of freelancer too? Because I think it's really important to realize that when we're that kind of freelancer that doesn't want a boss, a lot of times we actually end up creating a job with the worst boss of all, and that is ourselves. Seth:  Exactly. That most freelancers have an enemy inside and this is the person who not only relentlessly criticizes them, their work ethic, their approach, their quality of their work, but then when it's time to do the difficult emotional labor of building a career, it says, ‘Nah, we worked really hard today. Let's just go out for drinks.’ So on one hand, the boss is pushing you too hard and bringing shame along, and on the other hand, the boss isn't pushing you hard enough and making it easy to hide. Rob:   So, how do we make ourselves then that second kind of freelancer? What are the things that we need to do, really step into that role? Seth:  Well, I think it begins by acknowledging that you're not very good at what you do right now. You're at the 80% level. That there are plenty of people who do what you do, and many of them are faster and cheaper and more experienced than you. That's just sheer math. It's gotta be true. So, when I started out as book packager, I had a Mac. I knew sort of how to set type. I had an MBA from some fancy business school. I said, ‘I'm ready to go.’ But I wasn't good at it for seven more years. But if you are self-satisfied, and say, ‘Well, why are they getting the gigs and I'm not? Life isn't fair.’ Then you're not going to be able to sharpen your knife and hone your skills to admit that, in fact, you could be a lot better at this. That's the first thing. But the second thing is, you have to say no a lot. You will become the sum of your clients. You can define a freelancer's life by who their clients are. When you have great clients, they push you to do better work, which gets you even better clients and they pay a lot because they're happy to, because it's worth it. When you have lousy clients, they're in a hurry. They don't push you at all except on price, and the kind of work they want you to do, doesn't get you more clients because it's mediocre. So you have to be able to say to lousy clients, ‘Sorry, I'd love your money, but I don't want to work for you because you're a lousy client.’ And then you have to use your downtime to work on spec to earn the attention of great clients. Kira:   Can you talk a little bit more about that, the downtime working on spec to get the better clients because I feel like that's where a lot of copywriters in our club get stuck? Seth:  Well, in the old days, in order to be a copywriter, you needed a bag of gold because you needed to buy a list and buy stamps, so it would be really hard. For example, to effectively prove to L.L. Bean that you could write catalog copy and form letters that would make L.L. Bean's sales go up because it would've cost you tens of thousands of dollars to run that test on your own. But today, you could build a website and have that website attract people and connect people and earn people's attention until you had 5,000 people in the fly fishing club. Once you earned the attention of 5,000 people in the fly fishing club, you're not going to have any trouble at all getting great clients in the fly fishing industry because all by yourself for free, you earned the attention of 5,000 high value individuals. That's the kind of spec work I'm talking about. Or if you don't want to view it as an online club, find a charity you believe in, show up, and raise them $10 million dollars. After you've raised them $10 million for free, now you have a part of your portfolio that lets you walk to the next charity and say, ‘I'm so good at this. I raised $10 million for these guys and if I can't raise $10 million dollars for you, don't pay me.’ By the time you've done that five times in a row, then you really are the best at this. Not at anything, but at this, at this specific thing, and that's how you can carve out a career. Rob:   Yeah, I think you've just kind of answered this question I was thinking. On your podcast you talk a lot about being a category of one and a lot of times you'll talk about artists who are doing a daily painting or doing something that's very specific. I think sometime copywriters will hear that and say, ‘Well, yeah, but I'm not just art, I'm also commerce,