The Copywriter Club Podcast

Copywriter Kirsty Fanton joins Kira and Rob to talk about psychology in copy in this episode off The Copywriter Club Podcast. Kirsty’s experience includes a degree in psychology and work as a counselor and what she learned in those roles has had a big impact on her work for her clients. She shares how you can use psychology to forge a better connection with your clients. We talked about: •  How a travel blog helped Kirsty discover copywriting and land her first clients •  The things she did to get started the right way •  How her work as a counselor makes her a better business owner •  The importance of reflective practice and her 3-pronged approach that she uses to improve •  How she conducts a debrief call •  The different lenses her psychology background gives her to find the “meaty” parts in her research •  How she uses “naming” to discover what prospects are really feeling •  How she builds rapport quickly with prospects when she’s interviewing •  Narrative therapy and how copywriters can use it effectively •  The one question everyone asks—knowing it will make your copy better •  The two kinds of persuasion techniques •  How she keeps it all together and gets things done •  The mistakes she sees other copywriters making (that she’s avoided) There are a lot of great ideas and “psychological tricks” you can borrow to improve your own interviewing and copywriting. And, if you haven’t read her post about indirect hints in copy, you should click here. To hear the interview, click the play button below, or visit iTunes, Stitcher or your favorite podcast app. And if you’re the type that likes to read, scroll down for a full transcript. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: The Copywriter Accelerator Kirsty's website Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group Intro: Content (for now) Outro: Gravity Full Transcript: Kira:     What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes and their habits. Then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That's what Rob and I do every week at The Copywriter Club Podcast. Rob:    You're invited to join the club for episode 106 as we chat with copywriter Kirsty Fenton about how her background in psychology helps her write great copy for her clients, the narrative therapy techniques she uses to get prospects to take action, and the one question people regularly ask and how you can use it to your advantage in just about everything you write. Hey, Kirsty. Kira:     Kirsty, welcome. Kirsty: Thanks guys. Great to be here. Kira:     Before we jumped in with Kirsty and started recording, we were telling her how we haven't interviewed someone in at least two months because we both had been on vacation, so I'm sweating over here like I feel really anxious, Kirsty. A good place to start is with our basic question. Let's start with your story and how did you end up as a copywriter? Kirsty: Yeah, sure. So I got into copywriting and quite a roundabout way. As you said, I have a background in psychology, so when I finished high school I went to Uni, did an undergrad in psych and a post grad in counseling and then worked as a counselor for five years, and also lectured a couple of psych subjects at university here in Sydney. Anyway, all was going well and then in 2014 my partner and I decided we wanted to take a belated gap year. We packed up our lives and moved over to France for 12 months, which was amazing. While we were over there I kept a blog of our adventures just as a way of keeping our friends and family in the loop on what we were actually getting up to. Anyway, by the time we got back to Australia at the end of 2015, a couple of my friends had started their own business and they liked the way I'd written about our travels on my blog and asked if I'd like to write their copy, so I said yes. Not that I had any idea what a copy was at that point, but I thought why not? I'll give it a crack and I did that on the side of a counseling job. I think it was about six to 10 hours a week to start with, and then about six months later I decided to just take the leap and try out copywriting full time. Rob:    How did that work out? That first couple ... that first leap? What did that look like? Kirsty: People think I was brave. I think I was just a bit stupid in terms of what it would actually entail. I mean it worked out quite well, I think. For the first year I was doing quite well. I was just getting work via word of mouth referrals, although I wasn't getting to spend my time working on projects that I really enjoyed. I was more just doing whatever came my way. It wasn't until I joined your Accelerator actually in, I think it was November last year, that I actually sort of started putting myself in the driver's seat a bit more and building something that today I'm really quite proud of and really enjoying. There have been some big changes definitely since I started. Kira:     All right, so I want to ask you about your gap year because that sounds fantastic. What triggered you and your partner to say, hey, we're going to go away for 12 months, hang out in France? What was the catalyst for that decision? Kirsty: A couple of things. I think in Australia gap years are almost like a rite of passage, I think because we're so isolated and it takes so long to get anywhere. We almost figure that we might as well go for a big chunk of time and neither of us had actually ever done a gap year and we were getting close to the age where we couldn't get long-term visas anymore, so we were like well, it's kind of now or never. The work I was doing at that stage was with the big cancer charity here in Australia. Working with people that had advanced cancer so it was quite draining, quite full on, and my partner's work was also quite full on. He was working very long hours, so we just figured why not take a break from it all and just spend a year doing everything that we wouldn't ever do here in Australia. We spent time working on vineyards on a foie gras farm- Kira:     What? Kirsty: At a French restaurant. Yeah, we did all sorts of crazy stuff. It was really good. Rob:    Before we leave the whole travel thing, give us the top three takeaways from your year in France. Kirsty: Oh, good question, Rob. Okay. Top three takeaways. Oh, God. Well, I mean learned a new language, but most of which I've forgotten now, but that was interesting I guess, and a pretty valuable skill to have. Also learned that I'm capable of doing a lot more than I thought I could when it comes to physical sort of farming skills because I'm certainly not by any means a practical farming type person, but yeah. I was getting up in there and butchering ducks, and pruning grapes, and bottling wine, and doing all those sorts of things. I don't know, third biggest one I think was maybe just the real value of getting right outside your comfort zone. Kira:     Wow, I love all that. When you came out of that experience at that point you were ready to leave your previous career behind or were you still considering that as an option before he jumped into copywriting? Kirsty: I actually came back and got a counseling job straight away and I don't think I would have left that career if the opportunity hadn't presented itself. I was quite happy counseling. I'm much happier now writing copy, but I don't think it would have been an avenue I would have got to on my own. I think it was just great timing and also the fact that I came back quite poor because we didn't actually earn any money for those 12 months. Any opportunity to earn some extra money on top of my counseling salary was definitely something I wanted to jump at. Yeah, just sort of right place, right time, right chance I guess. Kira:     You mentioned that you stepped into the driver's seat in your business and that's when things really changed and you feel proud of the business you've created since then. It seems like there is a stark contrast for so many copywriters where they're kind of starting out taking gigs, whatever comes their way, and then there's this moment or some changes they make so that they are finally in the driver's seat and we all get there at a different time. Some people it takes a lot longer. What did you do to step into the driver's seat? What did those changes look like for you? Kirsty: I think a lot of it was just about giving myself permission to sort of forge my own path and make my own way because as someone who's spent my whole working life being an employee, it was a huge change to wake up one day and realize that I was actually in control of what I was doing and where I was going and I didn't know what to do with that until I did join The Accelerator and that obviously takes it through all those modules like niching, and pricing, and packaging, and processes. The first thing I did with niche down into writing humorous emails, changed my website, and sort of I guess announced that change to my little corner of the Internet. Then from there I think it was just about not waiting. I think often as you say, new copywriters can spend a little time just waiting, sitting around for someone to tell them what to do, or for a prospect to find you, or for permission to just sort of go out and start doing stuff. It was just essentially saying what the hell, I'm just going to try and experiment and see what works and go with it what feels good. Rob:    I love it. We've been able to watch your business develop so we've seen a little bit of where you came from to where you are now, but talk about what you're doing today, where your clients come from, the kind of work that you do mostly. Kirsty: As I said, I'm mostly all about emails,

Copywriter Sarah Grear is back for a second appearance on The Copywriter Club Podcast. Kira and Rob wanted to learn more about how she is shifting to offer more consulting in addition to copywriting, the tools she uses to land clients and how she structures her business so she gets paid even while on vacation. It this episode (#105 for those who are keeping score) we talked all about: •  how she made six figures last year (and took four months off) •  what Sarah’s accomplished since we last talked with her •  what she does to help her clients have massively successful launches •  the “gift” she gives her clients that closes the deal •  what it takes to create a launch map and feel confident about sharing with her clients •  the five phases of a launch plan •  the ins and outs of a successful “launch debrief” and how she sells the next project •  how she continues to get herself on stage (and what she teaches) •  why she publicly celebrates every win today •  the strategies Sarah uses to create more freedom in her personal life •  how you can leverage your strengths to add consulting to your copy business •  her “mindset” advice for copywriters who want to up-level to consultant There’s lots to love in this episode. To hear it, click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript. You can also find it at iTunes, Stitcher and on your favorite podcast app. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: The first Sarah episode (#32) MindMup for G Suite Abbey Woodcock Tarzan Val Geisler SarahGrear.com/copy Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group Intro: Content (for now) Outro: Gravity Full Transcript: Rob:   What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That's what Kira and I do every week at The Copywriter Club Podcast. Kira:   You're invited to join the Club for Episode 105 as we chat for a second time with freelance copywriter, Sarah Grier, about what it takes to grow a copywriting business past six figures, her recipe for launch success, why she books two projects at a time and spreads payments over six months, and how to add consulting to the services you offer your clients. Hey, Sarah. Welcome back. Rob:   Hey Sarah. Sarah:  Hey, thanks for having me. It's so fun. I can't believe you guys have done 106 interviews. And you're still standing. Rob:   Barely. We're actually ... I think we're both sitting right now. Kira:   Sitting all day long. Which we need to work on. So why don't you just give us a quick update. What have you been working on and what's happened since last time you were on our show? Rob:   And that was Episode 32, for anybody who wants to check that out, because it was a really good one. So, yeah, check that out. Sarah:  I know. I became the take four months off in your business woman since then. But, yeah, I've done that. I took four months off last year, intermittently. If you listen to the old episode you can hear how. So, I'll leave that as a tease.  Since then, in 2017, I worked on 52 projects for 19 clients, and still managed to take all that time off. Kira:   What? Rob:   Wow. Sarah:   I know. Rob:   It's crazy. Kira:   That is crazy. Sarah:   When you have systems in place it makes a huge difference. But also I had this astronomical launch that stood out from all the other ones. We did seven figures in a single launch. Sarah:    And it was the first time we had worked together. Basically, that changed the way that I was showing up with my clients, because I realized when my clients grow to that level or grow that quickly, they don't always need a copywriter at that point because they usually hire an in-house production team. And so I started doing small percentage of consultant work alongside the copywriting work to really serve the people who needed more than just a copywriter. So that's what happened in the last year. It's been fun and insane. And then I also, just to add to the mix, I also did close to 10 podcast interviews and did at least three live events that I can remember, where I was speaking onstage. So it's been a fun year. Rob:   You listen to that, I'm thinking, 'How in the world did you take four months off?' That's crazy. Sarah:   I had my formula for it and it just works when you have systems and a good team in place. So that's really the short and long of it. Rob:   Very cool. So can we talk about launching and what you've been doing to have so many successful launches? I'm blown away. A million dollar launch the first time you're working with the client. That's amazing. What are you doing to make your launches so valuable for your clients? Sarah:    Well, I definitely helped them with all the components the first round. So from the top of the funnel all the way to the bottom, I was responsible for every asset, from video scripts to Facebook ads to emails to sales page. And I have, I guess, the part that's hard to teach to other people is a gift for finding the right resource at the right time or the right framework at the right time based on who the client is. I was able to put resources in front of them of other launches that ... Basically we had an advantage that the client was a celebrity in their world. And so I looked at other celebrities out there who were having a lot of success with online programs. And I used that as the framework. That's the secret sauce to why the launch was so successful. But the skill in it is learning how to reverse engineer what someone else did and make it work for a new client. And that part is a little harder to teach because you can't copy and swipe exactly what someone else does because you're not going to get the same results because the assets are different in each company. My ability to look at the assets of this particular company and say, 'Okay, how are we going to make this work for you?' Because they sell in a totally different way than most other people sell. So that was the nuance that made the difference. Kira:   Can you talk about how you approach this type of astronomical launch or any launch project in relationship to the client? So you show up as a consultant from day one, with the first kickoff call, and you're asking the right questions. So you're talking about top of the funnel to bottom of the funnel. And not just, oh, yeah, I'm just going to write the sales page and then hand it to you and that's it and disappear. Sarah:    The thing that I do from the very beginning, when we have that initial consultation call, I give them 30 minutes to talk with me. And I always find that no matter what level a company is at, I'd say, 95% of the time, they have a marketing plan in their head and no one's put it on paper. The very first thing I do after I get off the call with them is I get as much information as I can about where they are in their launch plan. And then I actually map it out for them.I use a tool called Mind Map that works inside Google Drive. So inside Google Drive, I create this launch map and it basically shows them what they said to me. And when they see it on paper they're like, 'Oh, my gosh. No one else has done this for me.' Now they can take what I've created for them and their Facebook ads manager already knows what to do. Their designer already knows what's coming in the pipeline in terms of copy production. Anybody on the team, their project manager can work more easily and breathe more easily because they know what components are going to happen. My launch maps are different for every client. They're custom for every client. And as soon as I finish that call, I send it to them as a gift. And I'm like, 'Hey, here's a surprise launch map.' And they immediately hire me after that. But the reason I started doing the launch map is because I realized that if they don't have it mapped out and have a plan, their results will suffer from the launch. So I did that for the client. We ended up doing $1.25 million with a single webinar style launch. It made all the difference for them because then their team knew what to do with it. Rob:   That's amazing. So we just recently did a training with Abbey Woodcock in the Facebook group about launches. And she shared this really elaborate spreadsheet of all the things that she spells out that have to be accomplished throughout a launch. How does that kind of a thing compare to the launch map that you're creating? Does it spell out all of the little pieces and what goes out where? Is it basically just a different format of that, or is it something different from a process standpoint? Sarah:    I actually watched that training because I was really interested to see how Abbey does it. I would call what she created and I hope ... I think, to me, it looked like a glorified editorial calendar. So it showed you all the pieces. I started out creating that for my client as well, thinking that it would be helpful. But it didn't really work for me and our production process. And I found that the launch map worked better for me. In terms of the way that she's organizing these large scale launches, you need something. So I think what she's doing is just as valid as creating a launch map. But the point is, if you don't lay out all the components, then people get lost and you lose time and the lost won't be as effective. As long as you're doing something, then you're golden. And her strength is probably in spreadsheets or ... I don't know who was sitting with her in the interview. Rob:   That's KC. Kira:   That's KC. Sarah:   Are they related? Are they husband and wife? Rob:   Husband and wife, yep. Kira:   They're partners. Sarah:   Okay. I didn't want to assume. Okay,

Copywriter Colin Theriot joins Rob and Kira for the 104th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. Colin is well known as the leader of the Cult of Copy (as well as four or five other related Facebook groups). He often jumps into the club to answer questions or comment on something, and we thought it was about time to talk shop with him. In our discussion, we covered: •  how Colin became a copywriter •  why he started The Cult of Copy •  the short cut to getting people to know who you are •  how beginning copywriters can create a copy learning experience •  the most important thing for beginners to learn (this skill is portable) •  his philosophy for running more than one Facebook group •  why he offers a “jobs” group and why you probably shouldn’t use it •  the five Vs of the Viking Velociraptor Formula

Copywriter, course creator, and coach, Belinda Weaver joins Kira and Rob for the 103rd episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. Belinda's also the co-host of the popular Hot Copy podcast. We talked with Belinda about the variety of ways she's created income streams for her business. Note: links and a full list of what we discussed is coming soon. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group Intro: Content (for now) Outro: Gravity Full Transcript: The Copywriter Club Podcast is sponsored by Airstory, the writing platform for professional writers who want to get more done in half the time. Learn more at Airstory.co/club. Rob:   What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That's what Kira and I do every week at The Copywriter Club Podcast. Kira:   You're invited to join the club for episode 103 as we chat with freelance copywriter and coach Belinda Weaver about building an information business as a copywriter, what she's learned coaching other writers, creating courses, and running one of the most popular copywriting podcasts, and how tap dancing makes her a better copywriter. Welcome, Belinda. Rob:   Hey, Belinda. Belinda:   Hi, guys. It's really great to be here. Tap dancing, flashback. Oh my gosh. Rob:   Should we jump into tap dancing immediately, or do we want to save that to the end? Belinda:   It's completely up to you. I think it's a lovely hook we can leave people with. Kira:   Let’s save that for the end. Let's start with your story, Belinda, and how you got into copywriting. Belinda:   Well, like most people, had a day job I didn't really like, was looking for an opportunity to do something else. I was working in marketing in Melbourne. We lived just over an hour out of the city, so two plus hours of commuting every day, plus a job I didn't really like. My husband and I started talking about a family, and I started thinking, ‘Well, how is this going to work?’ So I was open to new opportunities, and then I got taken to this kind of sales day with the job. It's a lot of people standing up, giving presentations, doing their pitches. One of them was about copywriting. Now, I did copywriting every day, but I didn't know it was a thing you could actually do as a job on its own. So when, at the end of the presentation, this copywriter started talking about running your own business as a freelance copywriter, I didn't listen to the rest of the day, because that was the idea that I'd been waiting for. As soon as we got back to work, I quietly registered my business. Maybe not that day. I took a day or two to brainstorm a name, but I registered my business. Then, while I was pretending to work, I started marketing and figuring out how to run a business and developing service packages, and then being on social media, and I started getting work. So I did that for about six months. I did my day job. I worked, did copywriting at night and on the weekends. Then after about six months, I was confident enough in my marketing abilities to know that I could get more work. So I was getting regular leads coming in, and I thought, ‘Yeah, I can do this.’ Then on my last day, rather than walking through the office going, ‘Screw you all,’ I put together a presentation for the MD, and I said, ‘I can save you $20,000 on your marketing if you keep me on at my new freelance rate,’ and I just stopped doing all the time-wasting activities. I divided my job into value tasks and low-value tasks, and I had this whole little spiel, and he actually agreed before the presentation had finished. So I had my first client before the end of the day. Rob:   Wow. I mean, that's so smart. Love it. What resources did you use when you made that first decision to move away from marketing and into copywriting, to start writing? Were there books or things that you turned to, to teach yourself the skills, or did you just go at it? Belinda:   I'm a learner, so I took a course. I took a copywriting course, because I think many copywriters, I was doing it, I loved it, I had trust in my instincts, but I wasn't aware of the construction element of copywriting. Once I learned that, I felt much more confident in my ability. A lot of the things I was doing anyway, but I wasn't applying a method to it. So I did a course. I started reading books. I started reading a lot of blogs and following a lot of copywriters to see not only how they wrote, but how they put their business together, how they did their marketing, and gleaning any kind of tips I could get about copywriting as well. Kira:   What did those early days look like for you as far as finding those clients? So you found that first client, your employer. How did you find the other clients at that point? Belinda:   Well, my first client actually came through a mentoring group. I jumped into a mentoring program for copywriters, and my first lead came through there, but then I started publishing on social media. It was back in the day when you could be on social media and share tips about copywriting, and people would flock to you, which is not what it's like now. But, I started doing some social media marketing. So I got a few leads through there. I got my first lead through the mentoring program. The other thing I did was I started connecting with graphic designers and web designers, because I realized we had the same customer base. That was one of my really proactive actions, was introducing myself to web designers and graphic designers and getting to know them, often through social media, and just positioning myself as a copywriter they could refer work to. That's actually where most of my leads started coming from. Rob:   As you started out, how quickly did your business grow? Did you go through that struggle where you felt like you were starving or failing, or was everything a pretty smooth ride? Belinda:   I have to admit, I don't have a dramatic starving copywriter story. It was actually pretty smooth for me, and that's because I was really, really determined, and I've really put a lot of effort into my marketing. I built relationships with people. I maintained relationships with people. I tried to share my knowledge and expertise as much as possible, and I've really felt that that's what drew people to me. I started going to networking events as well, and that gave me enough business to keep going while I refined all my processes around onboarding, and project management, and post sales, and things like that. But, I found it was really quite smooth. Then, within a year I think, I was booked out say four to six weeks in advance. I found people were willing to wait, and that really is all down to the marketing. Kira:   I mean, you said it's smooth, but it sounds like it was smooth because you were really smart about how you jumped into your own business too. I believe you said you spent six months at your job working on the marketing, and really prepping the business before you even quit and felt confident enough that you could leave, while also snagging them as a client. So it sounds like you were really smart in your transition, and you didn't just jump into it without really thinking about it. Belinda:   Yeah, that's exactly right. Jumping into things really works for some people. It does not work for me. I need a plan. I need structure. I need to know I have a safety net, and I need to know it's going to work, and that's all in the preparation for me. Kira:   I'd love to hear about the marketing activities. It sounds like you were doing a lot of different activities when you started out, but what would you say are the key marketing activities that you recommend to new copywriters that deliver the most value if you could only focus on maybe one marketing activity early on? Belinda:   I think it's networking, networking and building relationships. Investing in my network, investing in my marketing, especially when I was busy, is the thing that kept clients coming over and over again. I think a lot of people, a lot of copywriters go, ‘I'm really busy. I don't have time to write a blog. I don't have time to go to networking. I don't have time to be on social media. I just need to write,’ and then the work dries up, and they have to hustle again to get more clients in. So I think consistently building relationships, and doing other marketing activities, but building relationships with people who can refer work to you is something I always prioritize, because when people send you leads, they convert much more easily. You don't have the overheads of getting new business, and you have that consistent stream of clients. It works really well. Rob:   Too true. We could not underline that advice enough. I think relationships are everything in this business. So Belinda, you reached the point with your business that you decided to start doing some additional things in addition to client work, especially creating some information products. Will you talk about the decision to do that and what those products looked like at first, how you developed them, and the impact that that's had? Belinda:   Yeah, sure. At that time I had my first child, and we moved to the states. We moved from Australia to the states when she was 10 weeks old. I found myself in a new country with a small baby trying to manage time zones and nap times, and I found the pressure of getting on the phone to get briefs from clients who were mostly in Australia, and then having enough time to write copy to meet deadlines, I found it incredibly stressful. I found that I wasn't being present with this new baby who was only relying on me,

Community manager Harmony Eichsteadt is the guest for the 102nd episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. We chatted with Harmony about a wide range of topics related to connecting with clients to building communities for both customers and peers. Harmony knows a thing or two about building healthy communities—she’s done it with groups like The Good Life Project and NationBuilder. We asked Harmony about: •  how she became a community manager (with stops as a dating coach and cancer survivor along the way) •  the first steps to take to build a community around ourselves •  who is better for community building: introverts or extroverts •  the biggest misconceptions around building a community •  where you can build a community and how (it’s not just online) •  some of the benefits of building and belonging to a community of copywriters •  how to connect with others within communities you don’t own •  whether there’s a growing hunger for new communities today •  why everyone is already a community leader and how to get better •  the differences between online and offline community interaction •  how to connect with people in the real world •  how copywriters can build deeper connections with other writers We also asked Harmony for her advice about when you run an event (we’re starting to think about round two for TCC IRL) and what it takes to win a poetry slam. She let’s us in on the fact that we probably won’t win one. Maybe we’ll have Harmony to our next event to perform a bit of her award-winning poetry—yeah? To hear this one, simply click the play button below, or download it to your favorite podcast app. Want to read it instead? Scroll down for a full transcript. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Inward 2019 Event Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group Intro: Content (for now) Outro: Gravity Full Transcript: The Copywriter Club Podcast is sponsored by Airstory, the writing platform for professional writers who want to get more done in half the time. Learn more at Airstory.co/club. Kira:   What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That's what Rob and I do every week at The Copywriter Club Podcast. Rob:   You're invited to join the club for episode 102 as we chat with professional community builder, Harmony Eichsteadt about what it takes to create strong communities, how to work a room online and off, what she does to land and rock a speaking gig, and writing poetry good enough to win a poetry slam. Kira:   Welcome Harmony. Rob:   Hey Harmony. Harmony:     Thanks so much for having me. Kira:   We’re excited that you're here so we can talk about something that we really haven't covered on this podcast. All about community development, community engagement and relationships. So, why don't we kick it off with your story. How did you end up as a relationship and community expert? Harmony:     It's such a good question and I think for many of us we can start the story at a lot of different places. So, the more deeply I get into my work, the more I can see tendrils from even my childhood of like, ‘I've always been very fascinated about connecting people.’ So, I think there's some thread that was maybe there from a young age, but how it crystallized for me was actually I started out as a dating coach, which I think is, now I think is very funny. I spent a few years working with people on writing dating profiles, on how to flirt, and think about developing relationships. That morphed into this current career for a few different reasons. One is that I got diagnosed with thyroid cancer when I was 29 and that was not what I was planning to do with my 29th year on the planet. I had other items on my agenda, but it threw a monkey wrench in things. As is the case for lots of us when we have a big surprising life change, it forces us to look at our priorities, what we care about and who we really are. Part of what emerged for me in that process was that I noticed I was really gathering all these people around me. That seems very obvious and normal in that time, but I started to see other people going through difficult circumstances alone. I realized that there was some combination of having already built a really strong community and then knowing what to do with it. I started to reflect back on the dating coaching that I was doing, and so much of that was actually teaching people how to build communities, and how to have a lot of rich relationships, many of which, or some of which would turn romantic, but not all of them because we have a lot of friends, it's easier to meet someone to date. So, I started to really refine like, what I care about is actually just teaching people about connecting. I want everyone to have the kind of network support that can uplift you so that when life takes a left turn, it's there. It became just like a really personal passion and, which then turned into this career path, which has been just like really a fun adventure to see that unfold that way. Rob:   Okay. So, I have a whole bunch of questions that flow out of your story. But, I want to go back to the beginning where you are a dating coach, teaching people how to flirt and connect. What's involved in that? I mean, I'm thinking about myself and I have a relationship so I'm not really interested in learning how to flirt for romantic purposes, but obviously connecting with people and getting people interested in you, like how do you teach that? Harmony:     Right. I think that's a great question. Actually a lot of flirting that you might do with a romantic intention is also like if you take the romance part out is really great for just connecting with people. So, giving someone a lot of eye contact and being really curious about their life, and what they're interested in is very attractive and engaging whether you want to date somebody, or you're just having a conversation with a colleague. So, thinking about those elements, I was like, what makes us just feel really good and want to get to know somebody better? That's the whole point of flirting really. It was like, ‘This feels nice. I might want to have another conversation with this person.’ Kira:   So, is the key to growing our businesses to flirt more? Do Rob and me need to start flirting more? Harmony:     I mean, I don't know if it's the key, but especially if you're interested in building more relationships, I think it's a pretty good tactic. Kira:   So, I want to hear more about when you had cancer at age 29, how did your community help you? Can you provide some specific examples? Harmony:     Yeah, so I actually had teams of folks, so I had a finance captain who's in charge of helping manage fundraising because I couldn't work for part of that time, and I had several people who were coaching me around stuff like grappling with my mortality, and thinking about what that meant, and who I was going to be in the face of this big change. I had folks organize teams so that I always had a person with me at every doctor's appointment. It was really funny being a young adult with cancer is really different than how most people experience it. It's usually either pediatric cancer or folks who are older, so you tend to either have a spouse, or children, or parents there as a consistent support figure. But, I was divorced, I wasn't living near my parents but I had this great community, so I had a rotating band of friends. My doctors never knew who was going to show up with me. There was always some person there. I lived with some friends for a little while, so it was really a wide range of ways that people showed up, which I think is actually a real key for community. So, I think of it like stone soup, or I might bring a carrot, and you have a potato, and there's somebody else who has celery, and you all just pitch in the thing that you have, and if you have enough folks who can do that, you end up with this really rich result, and nobody is having to really extend past what they're able to offer. Rob:   So, before we jump into the business applications of this kind of a thing, a lot of copywriters, myself included, are a little bit introverted and so connecting with people, especially in real life is difficult. What are some of those first steps that we need to take in order to build communities around ourselves like what you're talking about? Harmony:     I love this question. I actually do a lot of work with introverts, and I've gotten like a little obsessed with thinking about introverts as community builders. I actually think in some ways introverts can be even better community builders than extroverts because ... I know, it's like plot twist. The reason being that, obviously I'm painting with a broad brush, but the often for introverts, each relationship they build takes much more energy, and so they tend to be much more invested in and hold the relationships as really precious. If it's very easy to make lots of relationships and everyone's a new friend, then it can be ... you might forget or be a little more flippant about the relationships. So, I think that, ‘Okay, this relationship was painstakingly one, and I'm not going to lose it because I'm not doing that work again.’ actually can be like a great asset for community building. But, then obviously there is like if you're building a big community, a lot of relationships so that that can be taxing, and if you're someone that doesn't draw your energy from that. So, I think some, some tips is like, one, don't have to be extroverted. So, not trying to be something that you're not. A few really quality deep relationships that last are better than a bunch of superficial relationships.

We’re kicking off our second century of podcasts by flipping the tables and answering your questions for the 101st episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. Justin Blackman (of 100-Headline-Project fame) grabs the microphone to ask Kira and Rob all about: •  who Rob and Kira really are •  how Rob and Kira met and decided to start The Copywriter Club together •  where the idea for The Copywriter Accelerator came from •  the story behind the creation of the first Copywriter Club event •  why we shut down our second program and what we learned •  some of the other mistakes we’ve made over the past year or so •  how The Copywriter Club has changed our own businesses •  the progress we’ve made on the goals we shared in episode 50 •  how the podcast (and our guests) have helped us improve our writing and processes •  what we’ve learned going through The Copywriter Accelerator for the third time •  when we plan on taking a break from learning •  what’s coming up for The Copywriter Club in the coming months Plus Justin asked a long list of “lightning round” questions that we do our best to answer—but let’s face it, we’re not very good at the whole quick answer, lightning fast thing. So, if you want to know more about Rob and Kira and a bit of what’s going on behind the scenes at the club, download this one to your favorite podcast player. You can also hit the play button below or scroll down for a full transcript. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Justin Blackman The Copywriter Accelerator The Copywriter Club IRL Event (link coming soon) Brian Kurtz Kim Krause Schwalm Amy Posner The Copy Clinic Tarzan Kay Sam Woods Joe Schriefer Sarah Grear Sean D'Souza Bond Halbert Tanya Geisler The Copywriter Club book lists Dan Kennedy Wikipedia’s List of Lists Seth Godin Eman Zabi Mel Abraham Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group Intro: Content (for now) Outro: Gravity Full Transcript: Justin:   What if you could hang out with two moderately talented copywriters, who spend all day asking seriously talented copywriters, about their successes and failures, they're work processes and their habits, and steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That's what I'm going to do with Kira and Rob this week, at The Copywriter Club Podcast. You're invited to join the club for episode 101 as I turn the microphone on Rob Marsh and Kira Hug and dive into what it's like to run a gigantic Facebook group, interview copywriting royalty, develop a training program, and create a think tank, on top of managing their own work. Rob, Kira, welcome to your show. Rob:   Moderately talented, might give us more credit than what we deserve. Might be overstating things a little. Kira:   That's true, I'm flattered. Thank you. Justin:   Exactly. Rob:   Let's do this Justin, let's do it. Justin:   Let's do it. So, I'm going to turn the tables a little bit. We're going to get into what it's like to run The Copywriter Club and Facebook group, your Accelerator, The Think Tank, your own client work. So we're going to get into it a little bit about who are Rob and Kira? I know you guys, you're a bit of an unlikely pair. Rob you're a little more formal, a little buttoned up and corporate. Kira, a little wild child, dressing up like a pirate, you got your hair colored like a troll. But somehow you guys, you make it work. So I want to hear a little bit of rundown about how you guys met, and what's the history of the TCC. Kira:   Rob, I'll let you tell our Tinder story. Rob:   I think you tell it better than I do actually though. So, yeah, the short story is that, yeah, we met on Tinder and we both swiped right, and it just was meant to be. And then the longer version is that it had nothing to do with Tinder and we met in a mastermind group run by Copy Hackers. And it took us about maybe a year, but over that year we sort of got to know each other a little bit, shared our copy with each other. And at the end of a year, a few people had started suggesting that we should be doing something together, some kind of project or something and I had explored the idea of doing a podcast and reached out to Kira and said ‘Hey, I've got this domain, The Copywriter Club. I don't know what we should do with it, maybe we should do a podcast.’ And she was game. And that's all she wrote, it's been fun ever since. Kira:   Yeah, that's it. I never thought about a partnership necessarily. I wasn't looking for a partner. But it was interesting that several people ... not just one, mentioned you two should do something together. And I think we were both like, what, huh? And then when Rob mentioned his idea around The Copywriter Club, I was just in because I was looking for a podcast. I wanted to host a podcast again, I had had one previously and I also love building communities. And I thought Rob was a decent human being and we would get along. So it just seemed like a no brainer decision. Justin:   Alright, so it was a podcast first and then the Facebook group came along pretty quick right? Rob:   We put together the Facebook group actually right when we launched the podcast, simply so there would be a place for people to discuss anything that we talked about, or to ask additional questions. We just thought it would be a good support place, you know, just to hang out and have a group. We had no idea how big it was going to get. There weren't really any harden fast plans about any grand strategy of what it was going to become, but those two things, we pretty much launched the same week, the first week of January. Justin:   Nice. So were courses ever part of the original plan? Kira:   Well, we knew from the beginning that this was not a hobby and it wasn't going to be a non-profit. And that we both you know we wanted to build a business together and monetize it eventually. So we understood that, that wouldn't happen overnight but I think we were both very clear and had a conversation where we're like, hey we both have families, we both have a lot of client work, a lot happening, so what are our intentions? And so we were pretty serious about just treating it like a business, from day one. So we knew that we were both interested in creating training programs and creating content. We both really enjoyed creating content, although I would say, we don't create enough of it now. That's what we really want to do more of. I mean the idea was to figure out what is needed in the space and to create it. But I don't think we knew exactly what that looked like at the time. Justin:   Now you guys sort of came about with of a course The Accelerator which became more of a business foundation course. Was that your initial goal or did you kind of think that it might be more of just a general copywriting course? Rob:   So, yeah, like Kira said, we didn't really have a plan. But what we started seeing in the Facebook group in particular, was people were asking for help mostly about business questions. How do I get my first client? How do I choose a niche? How do I setup things so that I can be successful? How do I get my second client? And so we kept seeing these kinds of themes repeated over and over and over in the Facebook group. And that led us to think, okay, if we're going to help everybody in a broader way, or at least help as many people in our group as possible that seems to be where the biggest need is at this point. And so that's the first thing that we built. Justin:   Very cool Kira:   Right. We were thinking through also, okay, what are the six components, I don't know how we settled on six, but six felt right. Maybe Rob ... that was your idea. Like the six cornerstones of a business based off what had worked for us, what we had seen worked for others, and then also what we were learning in the podcast interviews too. So we created the program based on what we felt like were the core components you need to get the business up and running. And also based on topics that we're both interested in and enjoy talking about too, like branding, positioning, niche’ing, which we talk about a lot in the podcast. And putting yourself out there and building authority too, so all of it is stuff we really enjoy and we feel like we also see how it's helped copywriters. So I think we kind of, just took a chance on those six core components, but it ended up working out well. Justin:  Nice, and then the conference, that came about last year. What was the tipping point that you realized you guys are big enough to be able to pull one of those off now? Rob:   I'm not sure that there was a tipping point. So we were asked by Joanna Wiebe at Copy Hackers, to help with a promotion that she was doing. And we thought in order to really succeed at that, we needed to come up with a bonus that would resonate with people and that people would be interested in. And we had been talking about possibly doing an event sometime in 2018, maybe at the end of the year. We've actually been talking to a couple of the speakers that we had at our event and maybe doing something together. And when Joanna reached out, we just said, well let's just throw out a ticket and see what the response is. And we were surprised that so many people were interested in it. And it really forced our hands to then deliver and create a conference after we had done that promotion with Joanna. Kira:   Right. And meantime ... it seems like the same way that Rob and I partnered and multiple people said hey, you two should think about this. At the same time that we were working with promoting Joanna's program, other people, like our mentor, Brian Kurtz, kept telling us we should think about an event and really just kind of kept pushing that idea. And we were talking to Kim Krause Schwalm about partnering with her, you know, doing some type of event as well.

Former copywriter and current business advisor, Jay Abraham is the guest for the 100th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast with Kira Hug and Rob Marsh. Jay is the perfect guest for this milestone episode because Jay teaches the importance of pre-eminence—and what is more pre-eminent than appearing as the expert on the 100th episode of this podcast? And Jay delivered. Here’s a look at some of what we covered: •  how he went from copywriter to business advisor to thousands of companies •  the expert authors he learned from when he started out •  how he accidentally got into the seminar business •  the business ideas (USP, LTV, Risk Reversal, Allowable Cost) you should know •  how to deliver continuous breakthroughs for our clients •  copy versus concept and which one matters most •  why you shouldn’t offer stuff for free (and what you should do instead) •  the biggest challenge you have to overcome with your audiences •  why achieving pre-eminence is so important (and how you do it) •  the shortcuts to engineering a continuous stream of breakthroughs •  how to get mindshare for the clients you’re working for •  a few of the places copywriters should do research in order to be great •  what it takes to be an “original synthesizer” (versus a plagiarist). •  who the client you’re really working for is (it might not be your client) •  the thing that bugs Jay the most about list building Jay also shared a ton of bonuses for listeners to the podcast. Check out the links to those resources below. Then, click the play button to listen to the interview, or scroll down for a full transcript. And of course, you can find this episode on iTunes, Stitcher or in your favorite podcast app. Go get it! The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Dan Rosenthal Claude Hopkins George Hotchkiss Victor Schwab Robert Collier Entrepreneur Magazine International Living Scientific Advertising My Life in Advertising Albert Lasker Tony Robbins Steven Covey Brian Tracy Mary Lou Tyler The Deming Institute A Technique for Producing Ideas The Three Bonuses (The 100 Greatest Headlines, 37 Million Dollar Headlines, and Copywriting Formulas) 50 Shades of Jay Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group Intro: Content (for now) Outro: Gravity Full Transcript: Kira:   What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes and their habits and steal an idea to inspire your own work. That's what Rob and I do every week at The Copywriter Club Podcast. Rob:   You're invited to join the club for episode 100 as we chat with Jay Abraham, the founder and CEO of the Abraham Group about how he solved business problems for clients in more than 7,000 industries, thinking strategically about copywriting and what we offer our clients, the importance of preeminence and what we can do to find new breakthroughs in our own businesses. Hey, Jay. Kira:   Welcome, Jay. Jay:    Thank you very much. It's a distinction and an honor to be podcast number 100. Rob:   It is. In fact, we were talking to Sonny, who's on your team and she's in our group. She suggested, ‘Hey, you know, I don't know if you're doing anything interesting for your hundredth episode, but maybe we could connect with you.’ We thought, actually would make perfect sense to have you come on for number 100 because of how you talk about preeminence and to have a super special guest like you on episode 100. We're thrilled to have you here, so thank you so much. Jay:    It's my pleasure. As I told you, at a certain point in one's career, you become very focused on being privileged to impact people's thinking lives and the impact they can make on multitudes of others. It goes both ways. I am taking the gloves off. You guys have access to whatever you want. I don't know where you're going to take it but I like surprises. Rob:   Cool. We like to start with people's stories. I wonder, Jay, you started as a copywriter, I believe. Will you tell us how you went from copywriter to the kind of an advisor to thousands of companies in thousands of industries, literally. How'd that all happen? Jay:    It's all tied to an accidental event which I wouldn't recommend for everybody but it had a profound positive, ultimate outcome. I got married the first time — I've been married a total of three times and I'm not recommending it but I'm just giving you a background — at 18. I had two kids by that time I was 20. I had no formal education. I had the needs of somebody about 40 and nobody cared. The only jobs I could get weren't really jobs. They were crazy, created on the spot situations that entrepreneurs would give me where my purpose was to create value where it didn't exist, develop a new distribution channel or figure out how to sell a ton of their product without any marketing budget or persuade 1,000 radio stations and TV stations to run ads and only get paid on results. They were very interesting. I went through a constant, I guess I'd call myself transient, transitory process of jumping from industry to industry when I was younger. After about, I don't know, seven or eight totally different industries, I realized that people who operated in one industry pretty much all followed the conduct of the crowd. It was basically interesting to me that something that was common sense and foundational in industry A was totally and remarkably and stunningly newfound in industry B or C or D. I started borrowing common approaches from other industries, combining them into hybrids and applying them to the new industries I was in. They could be anything from ways of communicating, ways of starting relationships, means of reducing risk, bonus-based offers, trial offers, all kinds of things. Between strategy, marketing, business model and observed modeling and emulation and hopefully innovation of different copy approaches that could be totally translated to different industries, I was the equivalent of the one-eyed man in the land of the blind. I just killed it for people. As I started doing that, I was able to do it really in spite of even knowing exactly what I was doing because I had this power of continuous breakthroughs that distinguished my clients. I didn't really have to be as aware of what I was doing but as I got deeper into it and I started initially writing copy with an inherent appreciation for the empathic hopes, dreams, and uniqueness of the market. I was always very aware, sensitive, appreciative, intrigued with the consumer I was targeting. But I didn't really know exactly what I was trying to do until a couple of years later when I met a fellow that you may not know of. You wouldn't know him because I don't think he is alive but he's not here anymore. Dan Rosenthal, and he spent an intense day with me. He gave me the lifetime shift of teaching me basically what a USP was, what benefit verse feature selling was, what real advertising was, which is salesmanship multiplied, risk reversal, testing, bonusing, allowable costs, all those things. He gave me bibliographies to read when you didn't have the internet. I had to spend every dime I could to try to find these out-of-print books particularly Claude Hopkins and people like George Hotchkiss and Victor Schwab and Robert Collier, before all those books were available. I was just massively and unrelentingly absorbing all this understanding of predictable human nature and immutable tendencies of how a human being responds to stimulus and ethically, not as a manipulative, diabolical, Machiavellian person but just, I understood the human condition. Then, as I started evolving, I went into niches. I did Entrepreneur magazine when it first started. We did Icy Hot first before anybody knew what it was and grew it. Then, it was sold to two companies before it got into the one that everybody knows about now with … Who's the spokesperson? Rob:   I can't remember. Jay:    Shaq! Shaquille O'Neal. Yeah. We did Entrepreneur magazine when nobody even knew what entrepreneur even meant and our marketing had to be started with an external excerpt from Webster's Dictionary, where we had to not only produce the phonetic pronunciation but also the real definition because no one knew what an entrepreneur was. From there, I got deeply into the investment newsletter business. Today, if I say, the advisory … I knew the founder of Agora when he had one newsletter, which was called International Living. His colleague, I knew him as a protégé to one of my partners in another business. Back then, I got into the newsletter business big time because there were these passionate economists and financial advisors and ideologists in Austrian economic, free market thinkers that were very brilliant at articulating an economic or an investment viewpoint but they were really miserable at selling the real value of intangible information, expertise, knowledge, foresight, high-viable predictability, et cetera. I was able to be the voice and the advocate of 21 of them. From there, this is a protracted answer, I created the marketing. I created the renewals, the re-activations, the lifetime, the semi-lifetime, the partial lifetime, the special high-level services. This is all before anybody else understood it. Before anybody ever did it, we created inserts. I had to figure out how to articulate them all. There was a point where I was writing an honest-to-god 1,000 different things a year for different clients, a lot of it we could repurpose, renewals, ancillaries, but I was just creating all kinds of different copy, front and back end, renewal, ancillary, upsell. I was very deeply immersed in the mindset of an investor. These were real investors. I mean this not to be derogatory but if you look at a lot of people who subscribe to investment publications today, they're more opportunistic,

This is the last episode of the podcast before we hit triple digits—and it’s a good one. Health copywriter Jason Rutkowski joins us for the 99th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast and we covered a lot of ground, from Jason’s secrets for connecting with both mentors and clients to a look inside his copy mastery process (he sent us a screen capture of his file system so you can see what he’s talking about during the podcast). Here’s a look at what we covered: •  how Jason failed his way to copywriting as a career •  finding his first few clients and figured out his niche •  the “one thing” he tried that resulting in connecting with good clients •  the strategy Jason followed to get A-list copywriters to share their stories with him •  the single most important thing you can do at live marketing events •  what it’s like to be “cubbed” by an A-list copywriter •  why you absolutely need to reverse engineer great copy to get better •  the difference between a copywriter and a master copywriter •  the foundational copywriting reference everyone should study •  Jason’s research process (and how he reverse engineers A-list research) •  how to get started writing in the health industry •  the gmail hack for studying the market you want to write for •  the reason A-list copywriters work with copywriters (an opportunity?) If you’re interested in not just being a copywriter, but becoming a great copywriter, you’re going to want get this one. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript. And of course, you can find it on iTunes, Stitcher or in your favorite podcast app.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Clayton Makepeace Parris Lampropolous Marcella Allison Paul Martinez John Carlton Gary Halbert Jim Rutz Carline Cole David Deutsch AWAI Barnaby Kalan The Single Best Way to Get Clients Parris’ book list On Writing Well by William Zinsser The Brilliance Breakthrough by Eugene Schwartz Brian Kurtz New Market Health Health Sense Media Dr. Gundry Advanced Bionutritionals Nature City Patriot Health Alliance The Agora JasonRutkowski.com Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group Intro: Content (for now) Outro: Gravity Full Transcript: Rob:   What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That's what Kira and I do every week at The Copywriter Club Podcast. Kira:   You're invited to join the club for Episode 99 as we chat with freelance copywriter Jason Rutkowski about writing in the health and wellness niche, investing in himself and his expertise, his business and writing processes, and what it took to gain traction as a copywriter when he was just starting out. Rob:   Hey Jason. Kira:   Welcome Jason. Jason:    Hey Kira, hey Rob. Kira:   How's it going? Glad you're here. Jason:    Oh no, I'm excited. I haven't done one of these in a while, so I was excited to do it with you. Rob:   Definitely took a little time to get our schedules aligned. We've been trying to make this happen for a little while, because we know a little bit about you and where you write and we think it'll be a great conversation, so we're glad to have you here. Jason:     Yeah, definitely. Kira:   All right, so let's kick this off. Jason, how did you end up as a copywriter? Jason:     Okay, I'll give you the quick story about this. I was 19. I just finished my freshman year of college. I got an internship at a normal 9-to-5 job. And I realized I hated it. I was like, oh man. I saw all these people who worked in an office, you know, 30, 40 years; I'm like, is this really going to be my life? And also at the same exact time, I was on the internet one day and I found an internet marketing forum. And I was like, what's an internet marketing forum? I don't know. So I go on it and I see all these guys, like ‘Yeah I just made 200 grand this year, 500 grand this year. I work from home; I'm sitting at my desk all day.’ I'm like what? How is that even possible? So I started getting really into it. And then I learned about traffic drivers and marketing and product creation and all these things. And I was really confused. And I was like 19, 20 years old. So I heard about copywriting, but I didn't decide to be a freelance copywriter right away. I was like, you know what I'm going to do, I'm going to create my own products; I'm going to do Google Adwords; and I'm going to drive traffic. I'm going to do the whole thing, like from start to finish. And I horribly failed. You know, I was going to school full-time, and then I was doing this part-time, and I was just failing and failing. And then after a couple of years of that, I decided, okay this isn't working. I'm just going to do copywriting because I think this is what I like most. I don't like doing all this other technical stuff, marketing stuff. I'm just going to do copywriting. So, from then on out, I just picked a niche. I was like I'll just write in health. And from then on out I just started growing a business. Rob:   So, I'm interested in what some of those failures looked like. What were the products that you were creating and why were they failing? Jason:    Oh. I mean, the why is a lot of reasons. The products I was creating, I created kind of an ... E-books were a big thing back then. Back then you could just write an e-book and like sell it and people would buy it. So I created one for anxiety, which I actually went through a lot in the beginning of my life. And I also created a few for some, like headaches solutions and kind of like different health things. And I put, I don't know, these 150, 200-page books together with just some random info, that I thought was good, but then the whole process of, you know I was trying to organic SEO, trying to target the right keyword. I was in college so I had very little money to actually spend on driving traffic, paid traffic. And I was just doing a lot of things wrong. It was a lot of small marketing things that you don't know, don't you know it? Like how to do the SEO right, how to do the traffic right. How to do the delivery right. How to build your list. Like, doing a lot of bad stuff with building my list. A lot of mistakes; it was just like, I was just some teenage kid and I didn't know what I was doing. But I did learn a lot, and I also learned through the process that what I really liked doing the most was the copywriting. So I just decided to give up the whole build my own business thing and do the copywriting thing instead. Rob:   So what did that look like in the first stages? How did you connect with your first client, and why did you choose the niche that you chose? Jason:   Oh, back then that was me doing my own stuff. In terms of the freelance copywriting, I started on the freelance websites, which I don't know if it is a good way to do it anymore. But, you know, it was like these cheap little jobs on like Elance and Guru and ... Like, I don't know if that stuff was even worth it. I mean, I guess it paid me some money, and it gave me some actual samples I could send to people. But I didn't really get any good long term clients out of that. I didn't start getting good long term clients until I decided, and it took me way too long to figure this out, but to actually go to live events, and like talk with people. And actually like start- Kira:   Wait, what's that? Talking to people? What's that? Jason:    No, I know. I literally spent like my first three years of copywriting trying to do everything from my room. Like cold calling, Edesk, Olance, like cheap little, I mean, I don't know, I was making still a little money from it. I had like a 9-to-5 office job to support myself, and then I would come home and do this. I wasn't even close to making enough money to support myself. So I decided, okay the only way this is going to work is if I start going to live events. So I'm like, okay, what live events should I go to? Which ones are good? You know, what's some high quality live events I could go to? And the first one I ever went to was a Clayton Makepeace, like $5,000 seminar. And I did not have $5,000 by the way. But I did have good credit, so I put it on my credit card. And I actually did, actually. One thing I always thank my mom for is she got me a credit card at 18 and she taught me how to use it. And by the time I was in like, my early to mid-20s I had a credit card with like a $25,000 limit on it. Kira:   What? That's dangerous. Jason:           It was completely paid. I know, but I had no debt. Like, it was unused. So I decided to be a little risky and go to this Clayton Makepeace seminar, which ended up being the absolute best decision of my life because I met my mentor Parris Lampropoulos. I met Marcella Allison and I meet Paul Martinez, all at the same conference. We are all very, very good friends to this day. And then, after that, it was a matter of ... I mean, I don't know; when I talk face to face with people, I feel like all my failures from early in my career gave me a kind of a big foundation to talk about, where it's like okay, this person clearly has done the studying, has been in the trenches, has done some work. I haven't had a lot of success, but at least, like this kid just needs a chance. Or this kid, he's not a newbie. So I trust this guy to some extent. And then from then on out it was just, kind of going to more conferences, building my freelance career and you know, kind of trying to develop some long term relationships with people and that type of thing. So, that's how I did it. Kira:   Okay, this is exciting. So, we're going to talk about, you know, cubbing with Parris and some of these relationships you've built, but it sounds like this first event,

For the 98th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, Kira and Rob bring back one of the most popular guests from the first few weeks of 2017—Tarzan Kay. Tarzan’s been a great friend to us (and the club) so we were thrilled to have her back to talk about how her business has changed in the year since we last talked and how having a baby forced her to change how she worked. We talked about: •  how her business has changed since we talked more than a year ago •  why (and how) she has moved to day rates for most of her projects today •  how day rates work and why clients like them •  what day-rate clients can expect as far as deliverables go •  what the day rate process and schedule looks like •  the next step for clients after they book their first day •  the place mindset plays with day rates and asking for more money •  ideas for stepping out of your own thoughts to work on mindset •  how you can identify your mindset around money •  her approach to affiliate launches and what she does to succeed •  the #1 lesson she’s learned from working with affiliates •  how she found balance through a major life-change •  her advice to copywriters who want to take their business to the next level Tarzan has built a following among copywriters working on their mindsets and looking for new models for their business. If you’re like them, you’ll want to listen in on this discussion. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript. And of course you can also find it at iTunes, Stitcher or your favorite podcast app.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Tarzan’s first episode Denise Duffield Thomas Laura Belgray Julie Stoian B-School Copy School Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group Intro: Content (for now) Outro: Gravity Full Transcript: Kira:   What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That's what Kira and I do every week at The Copywriter Club Podcast. Rob:   You're invited to join the club for episode 98 as we chat with freelance copywriter, Tarzan Kay, for the second time about her business and what's changed over the past year. What it takes to do a successful affiliate promotion, getting over money issues and selling day rate intensive packages. Kira:   Welcome back Tarzan. Rob:   Hey Tarzan. Tarzan:   Thanks for having me back guys. Rob:   We are so excited to have you back. In fact, like you're one of the very rare few people that have come back to the show more than once. So thanks for doing that. Tarzan:    It's a real honor you know. I actually think you guys should do more episodes just the two of you, because I really like those ones. They're some of my favorites. Kira:   Awe, thank you for saying that. Rob:   Now, we'll let you go and Kira and I will talk ourselves. Kira:   And this interview is over, we are done. Rob:   Thanks, thanks for that. Hey let's start out by you catching us up on what's been going on in your business over the last year. Because, the last time we talked, and people can go back to that episode 9, 89 episodes ago, and check out what you said then. What's been going on for you over the past year? Tarzan:    Well, a lot has changed. So in August, I was surprised to learn that I was pregnant. Total surprise baby, which I wasn't planning for at all, and it threw a major monkey wrench into my plans, in the best way though. So, I had to adapt, and figure out how I was going to take time off and really change, kind of restructure a little bit. For one thing, I used way more hours with my VA and I've scaled that up since learning that I was pregnant. In January, and February since then, I've pretty much transitioned to day rate work almost exclusively. I have two clients who I just love the heck out of, so much, and I still do project based work for them. Everyone else, any new leads that's coming in, everyone is exclusively day rate work. Part of that was just because toward January and February, so the baby was due at the beginning of March, and I was kind of like, the baby could come early, I don't want to be booking a big project, that's going to require extensive research and lots of revisions and blah, blah, blah. So, I need to do something that could be flexible and also be really lucrative. Another crazy thing that happened, so in the meantime, we bought a house and sold our old house. Around some time mid-January, the deal went a little bit haywire and it ended up costing us an extra $25,000.00 to make all these sales go through. It totally wiped out my maternity savings fund. Starting in January, I have to start from zero now, and figure out how I'm going to be able to take time off. So, I did a little promo on my day rate, I did a ‘Buy one, get one half off’. I don't know, I suddenly got really confident about selling this offer and I started... I mean I've been doing day rate work for about a year, but it really clicked, like the real value of it and I was just going ‘Gangbusters’ with my sales calls. I just decided well, you know, that's what I decided to focus on. I like that kind of work, so I was able to completely replenish my fund and take some time off.  Which I am now, even though we are recording this podcast, I sort of semi-off. Kira:   Okay, alright. So there's a lot in there. Congratulations on having a baby! Tarzan:   Thank you. Kira:   I feel like this is a reason why I want to have another baby, at some point, because it would force me to develop systems and raise rates and do all these smart business changes that..kind of put some pressure on. Tarzan:   I love when someone I follow gets pregnant. And I'm like, ‘this is so great, I can't wait to see how she's going to do it’. Kira:   Or, if she'll fall apart. Tarzan:   It or both. Both are inevitable. Kira:   Let's talk about the day rate. I know we've had conversations about it in our Think Tank Group, but this is new to a lot of copywriters. So, can you explain, what it is exactly, why it's important, and where you started with it a year ago? Tarzan:   The thing is, with the type of leads that I get, so many of them want what they want, and they want it right now. When I was doing more project based work, it was like I have this really long wait list, and I'm turning away so many people and I didn't like that feeling. I also did not like the idea of hiring a junior copywriter. I'm not into the mentorship role as far as teaching copywriting. I didn't want to be responsible for someone else's work. So, I would end up turning people away and referring them, which didn't feel good. This day rate work is the solution, because people can get on my calendar a lot faster and they can get the results that they need a lot sooner. The thing is with these people that I'm working with, a lot of them are either optimizing an existing sales funnel, they're all selling courses by the way, they're mostly women in the personal development space, selling online courses. So some of them are coming up with their first course, and some of them are optimizing an existing sales funnel. In the case of them doing their first course, I don't really feel that good about selling someone a huge package, if they haven't really validated their offer. Maybe they have a small audience, that's a big issue with a lot of people; even if they have a great course, they don't have any reach yet, so it almost doesn't matter how great their sales funnel is. It's just like they are going to cap out at like $10,000.00. The day rate work solves a lot of different issues. Rob:   Let's talk about how this works then. Because you've got clients you work with on larger projects, how do you balance day rate clients against some of your larger clients, that you're doing work for on a regular basis and how do you make sure that someone feels like they are getting the value? When a new customer comes how much do you accomplish? Let's go really deep into this and talk about all of the things. Tarzan:   If I'm working on a project, I try not to have day rate clients over lapping. So, let's say, I am writing a sales page for one of my clients who's not doing a day rate thing. I would probably book two weeks out of my schedule for that, and I wouldn't do any day rate people in the meantime. It's kind of an either-or situation. Sometimes I'm doing both. Here's the thing about day rates. I get asked about it a lot and they want to have it all figured out before they ever make the offer. And you will never have it all figured out before you make the offer in terms of: how to sell it, how much you can do, and what's really going to delight the client, and what is going to leave them feeling like this wasn't worth it. All of that stuff, I've just learned as I go. I know other copywriters that do day rate work and I think they will also say, every project is different; and the way every copywriter does it is different. If you're going to do day rate work, I recommend putting the offer out there. Like, whatever it is. I started with a $1,000.00 a day. I worked with a couple clients at a 1,000 and I slowly raised it and raised and started to understand the value. And also became better able to estimate what I can do. That's really important. So if it feels scary to throw out a day rate of a few thousand dollars, well you can put out day rate that feels comfortable for you that you absolutely know you can deliver that value. Then just see how it goes. Initially when I first started doing this kind of work, that one day would often bleed into the next day. Or I would end up answering a lot of emails and doing a lot of strategy on the side, just because I wasn't able to keep it in the container of one day.

Copywriter Michal Eisikowitz joined Kira and Rob for the 97th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast and we go deep into her business. Michal has made some amazing changes to her business in the last year (including creating one of the best copywriter websites we’ve ever seen). You’re going to want to listen to this one. Here’s what we covered: •  how she turned a degree in speech pathology into a career as a copywriter •  the “experiment” that led solidified her career choice •  what she learned from her other jobs that made her a better copywriter •  how what she accomplished in the Accelerator helped her walk away from her previous job •  the evolution of her business, the kinds of work she does and what she charges today •  how long the exploratory phase should last before you choose your niche •  the work she does today and how she plans to evolve her business •  what her process looks like from start to finish •  why she has branded herself as a “perfectionist” •  how she balances her work with everything else in her life •  what she did to upgrade her website and how to know if you should upgrade yours •  what she has her VA do at the end of every project •  the packages she offers to her clients and how she came up with them •  how she uses LinkedIn to generate leads for her business (and the tool she uses) •  what she did to triple her income this year •  the mistakes she’s made along the way Finally, we asked Michal where she plans to take her business in the next year or two. Note: we lost Kira’s sound for the last few minutes, but it doesn’t detract from this fantastic episode. To hear this one, visit iTunes, Stitcher or use your favorite podcast app to download it. Or scroll down and click the play button or read the full transcript.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: The Copywriter Accelerator The Copywriter Think Tank 30 Day Social Michal’s website LinkedIn Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group Intro: Content (for now) Outro: Gravity Full Transcript: Rob:   What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That's what Kira and I do every week at The Copywriter Club Podcast. Kira:   You're invited to join the club for episode 97, as we chat with freelance copywriter Michal Eisikowitz about how she became a copywriter, how she's transformed her business over the past year and her amazing new website, how she uses LinkedIn to connect with potential clients and what she's learned as she started mentoring other writers. Kira:   Welcome Michal. Rob:   Hi Michal. Michal:     Thank you. Great to be here, you know how much I love you guys, so the chance to spend another hour with the two of you. Rob:   The feeling is mutual, so this should be fun. Kira:   All right, let's kick this off with your story and how you got into copywriting. Michal:     I have a really winding path to copywriting. I actually am a licensed Speech Language Pathologist. I trained in Communication Sciences, I have a Masters. My mother is also a Speech Language Pathologist, I have a background in education, so I thought special education was going to be a great fit. Then while I was earning my Masters I wanted a job, side job and I interned at a publishing company as the marketing assistant. I interned there for about three months and then was hired full-time and I ended up working there for two and a half years. I just loved every minute. I did everything to do with book publicity, marketing and copywriting, book titles, press releases, back flaps, book descriptions, catalog descriptions. All kinds of as ad copy, you name it, I was doing their marketing work. This kind of work really gave me this broad foundation in marketing and copywriting and I realized, wow, this is something I really love. What happened was that, after two and a half years, the company eventually closed and its closing coincided with the completion of my Masters degree. I was like okay, the fun is over, it's time to dive into my real job. This wasn't a real job, this was just like a dream. I landed a part-time job in speech therapy. I liked it, the kids liked me, the parents liked me, and it was going well. Then I just soon discovered that I had this kind of twitch, like I wasn't totally satisfied. I felt like I needed to get back into writing. There was something missing. Then I turned my face to journalism and I submitted my first feature to a weekly magazine and eventually started writing regularly for them and as well as other publications, monthly features, columns. At the same time I started accepting freelance writing and copywriting projects on the side. One of which grew into a proper gig as the in-house copywriter of a New York marketing agency. Basically, I was doing a million and one things, it was crazy. I was doing speech therapy, three or four days a week, feature writing for magazines, a steady agency copywriting and freelance copywriting. I was all over the place and then about a year, a year and a half ago I said, ‘This is just not going to work long-term.’ I'm a perfectionist as you well know by now and some point I realized if you want to be a master in your field, you have to choose one. You've got to dedicate most of your energies and your focus to one. I decided to do an experiment and give copywriting my exclusive focus for one year. I quit my speech therapy job, I stopped doing the feature writing and I enrolled in The Copywriter Accelerator, which you know was amazing. I am your biggest fan and that was it that just kind of jump started that experiment year. The good news is that, I really haven't looked back. Since I began giving it like 100% of my focus, my business has exploded and I'm just really thankful and blessed. That's my long and winding journey. Rob:   I love your story, as you know. I'm curious, with all of the things that you did, your Masters in Communication, the marketing job that you had, the journalism that you're doing. What are the things that you learned from those experiences that apply to what you're doing in copywriting today? Michal:     That's a great question. I find that from my speech therapy work, I learned a lot about the importance of listening. There is so much that you learn as a professional from listening to the parents of the children or the patient you're working with, the caregiver of the patient you’re working with. Just those interviews and those initial discovery sessions of really getting to the root of the issue, you learn a lot from that. Instead of diving into the work right away, you kind of use that background information to get very clear on your direction and goals for that session. I think that's helped me a lot in the client interviews and the discovery sessions that I do today. I’d say that my magazine writing was tremendously huge boon for my copywriting, because I was working with very tight work counts, always. I had to really, really learn to write very, very lean. Take out that scalpel and just cut, cut, cut extra verbs, extra adjectives, extra adverbs. There's just so much I learned about keeping your copy so tight and so powerful. In general, I think the magazine writing just really upped my skills and helped me find my voice as a writer. Kira:   Michal, I love the way that you write and it does feel like every word was chosen with intention. Now it makes more sense, I didn't realize that was your background. I’m just backing up and thinking about how you jumped into The Accelerator and treated it like a year of experimentation and really focusing on copywriting. It sounds like it just kind of happened overnight when you joined The Accelerator and we know that's not how it really works. What did you learn from your time in The Accelerator or what did you do that really helped you take things to the next level? Michal:     The first thing is that, The Accelerator started in June, so it was actually over the summer, when I wasn't working on my speech therapy job. I was really able to give it my full focus and I just realized that I am so enjoying this. I'm just really looking forward to coming to my computer each day and working. It's like I woke up with a spring in my step. That was realization number one. Realization number two, was also just the confidence of, I can do this, I'm good at this. I got peer reviews which helped me so much and the critiques were amazing, but there was also the feeling of, yeah, I'm not that far behind. I have the skills and I'm going to keep learning, I'm going to keep growing and there was this sense of I can do this, I can enjoy it and I can make money too. Once I had those discoveries, it wasn't as scary anymore to call up my supervisor and say, ‘I don't think I'm going to come back for the next year,’ or to let my magazine editor know that I'm taking a break for a while, because the possibilities became so real and strong. Rob:   Will you talk a little bit about the kind of projects that you were doing when you first started out as a copywriter, when you first committed yourself and the prices you were charging and compare that to where you are today and the kinds of projects you're doing today and the prices that you're charging? Michal:     Okay, so I was probably charging half of what I'm charging right now. I was doing all kinds of copywriting all over the place, no real niche. I was accepting any and every job as long as it fell under the copywriting umbrella. That was a big mistake, and the more I got into the copywriting as my exclusive focus, the more I was able to really learn what I was liking, what I was not liking and how I can narrow my niche and specialize.