The Copywriter Club Podcast

For the 96th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, Kira and Rob talk with copywriter Ridge Abraham. Ridge recently left full time employment with The Agora and now works freelance for financial clients and is taking on clients in other fields as well. You’ll want to listen to this one if only to get all of the books Ridge recommends as we talked. In this wide ranging interview we talked about: •  how Ridge went from Los Angeles DJ to financial copywriter •  how his very first mailed promotion pulled $7 million •  how he uses swipe copy without stealing ideas •  his writing process •  the projects he works on today—since he left Agora full time •  how he structures his compensation for the projects he takes •  what he does to connect to potential clients •  how he keeps his skills sharp today •  his thoughts about mentorship and why it is so important •  what he’s learned from his famous dad—Jay Abraham •  the “unbelievable” mistake he sees a lot of other copywriters make •  the failures he’s experienced and how to know when to give up •  several ideas to try if you want to write in the financial niche We also asked Ridge about what he thinks will happen to copywriting in the future and he turned the question back on us, so we shared our thoughts as well. To hear this one, visit iTunes, Stitcher, or download it on your favorite podcast app. Or you can simply click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show:   Agora Financial Great Leads Influence Made to Stick Money Map Stansbury Research The Oxford Club Cremes and Lotions Steal Like an Artist A Technique for Producing Ideas Joe Schriefer Abbey Woodcock Ian Stanley Gary Bencivenga Jay Abraham The Dip Chanti Zak Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group Intro: Content (for now) Outro: Gravity Full Transcript:   Kira:   What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work. That's what Rob and I do every week at The Copywriter Club Podcast. Rob:   You're invited to join the club for episode 96 as we chat with copywriter Ridge Abraham about his path into financial copywriting, what he did to generate seven million dollars with the first campaign he ever wrote, why he's so hard to find online, and the most important lessons he learned from his famous dad. Kira:   Ridge, welcome. Ridge:   Thank you guys. Thanks for having me. Rob:   It's really good to have you. Kira:   We were joking before we started recording about how Ridge is the hardest person to find online. We had to scour the internet to find you. Ridge:   That way you guys can't ask me those trick questions. Kira:   I know. Ridge:  It's even been easier to find Paris Lampropolous online, than it is to find me, which is saying something because he hides. I think he's got a bigger body of work than me, I don't know. Kira:   So let's kick this off with your story and how you ended up as a financial copywriter. Ridge:   Okay. So it's actually a pretty funny story. So, like I was telling you guys, I went to school for music. I was really into music production, songwriting. I was DJing. I was living in LA, and I really want to play shows. I wanted to travel and do stuff like that, and it is tough right out of college. If you want to be like an entrepreneur in the music business, it's very difficult to make it and you're often times broke. So I was working this internship at ... It was like a subsidiary of Hans Zimmer Music for Film studio, and I hated it. I was the intern that every day I would just go and get people lunch. I was just like the gopher. Worst job ever, miserable. I was really like, okay, I need to figure something else out. So I was listening to a lot of entrepreneurial podcast and one of them was John Lee Dumas, Entrepreneur on Fire, and I heard this episode with Kevin Rogers. And so I'm listening, I'm like, okay. He's talking about copy sheets. He's talking about copywriting. I'm like, okay, this sounds pretty cool. That's interesting. So anyways, I hear that and then a couple days later, and as we were talking about my dad's involved in direct response, someone from Agora, Ryan McGrath had come to meet with my dad at my house, I was living back at my parents' house at this time, and so he comes to my house and my dad's not there. And so I'm like, “How's it going?" We're talking, and he tells me he's a copywriter, I'm like, "Oh, yeah. I just heard all this stuff about Kevin Rogers podcast." We started dicing it out, and then he's like, "Wow. You really know this stuff. So maybe come out to Baltimore and check it out." I honestly had no clue what Agora was. I didn't know anything about financial copywriting. When I first went out there I seriously thought I was writing articles on finance. I had clue was Agora was. I didn't know anything about direct response. So I went and checked it out and I wanted so badly to get out of LA and just to do anything else with my life that wasn't music at the time, that I took the job to go to Baltimore, and then I kind of landed myself in this DR, financial copywriting world. I was like, Oh, this is pretty sweet. Rob:   It's crazy that you didn't know anything about copywriting, and yet you get hired as a copywriter. How's that work? Ridge:   Well, I think I read some copy before I went to Agora, and then I just think I had a lot of good questions. I've always been a pretty naturally curious person, and my mentor at Agora Ryan McGrath, I met with him and I met with Joe Schriefer when I went out there, and a couple of the other copywriters too. I think just being interested in it, like reading the promos and going through them, and just asking analytical questions about why certain things were certain ways in the structure of them. When I first got out there I seriously got out there I seriously had no clue what I was doing. It was just like, "Oh, hey, writing. Okay. Cool." Rob:   Can you tell us about those first few days. What was the learning process? What did they put you through? How did you get your feet underneath you so you could write your first promotion? Ridge:   So when I first got there, it's crazy. Agora Financial has grown so much in the past two, three years. When I first got out there, I think it was right around when they were doing 50 million a year, and they're still a relatively small company so there was only four or five ... maybe with all the remote copywriters, maybe up to eight copywriters. Now they have 30, 40, something like that. But when I first got there, I was mentoring under Ryan McGrath and he would send me this whole regime of what I should be doing. So he would give me books. I remember I read Great Leads, Influence, Make it Stick, couple books like that. Then he would give me all the best financial promos to hand write. So I was handwriting one of the money net promos, some of the Stansberry promos, Oxford Club, I had a lot of those. So we'd do that. And I would read a lot of the 4Ps, and some of the AWI materials, but it was just kind of like he would just give me stuff, like assignments due every week, and then it wasn't until about three months in or so that I actually started working on my first promo. And it was writing some traffic drivers email lift notes, some space ads. Kira:   So Ridge, I want to hear more about your time in music and the music industry, so were you a DJ, or were a singer or songwriter? What type of music did you play? Ridge:   So I got really into hip hop when I was like 15, 16. I loved old school hip hop. So stuff like New York hip hop, West Coast hip hop, so I was always making a lot of hip hop beat. When I went to college I started DJing. I had vinyl turntables, and I would scratch and do all that. And then somewhere along the way kind of more like techno. House music got big, and so then I got more into that. So I started producing a lot of techno and what you'd call deep house nowadays. It's kind of like the unz unz type music. And so I did that for a few years, and yeah. I played a good amount of shows, still do around LA. There's a couple big festivals that I've played, so it's been really fun. Rob:   Did you have a DJ name? Ridge:   Yes. It's ... Me and my buddy we DJ under the name Creams and Lotions. Rob:   Nice. Kira:   So Ridge, what was your biggest takeaway from your time? You're still DJing, but when you were heavily in that world, and it sounds like trying to build a career there, what was your biggest takeaway from your experience in the music industry that you've pulled into your career as a copywriter? Ridge:   I think, honestly, the biggest thing you can take away just is swiping. Anything you do you can model it off something else and get it done so much quicker. I think any time you're looking at a blank page you're just trying to envision what's in front of you. I think it's though, but when you have some sort of structure that you can layout for something beforehand, it makes it so much easier and you can move so much faster. Any promo I've ever written, just having another promo to model it all off of, that makes it just happen way more fluidly. Rob:   So when you talk about swiping like that, tell us how that works because there's sort of two schools, people who say, "do not copy," and I suppose that there's a limit where copying bad, but swiping idea or patterns or structure, is good. How do you walk that line so that you're not taking somebody else's promotion and claiming that it's your own, but you're actually reusing strategy or tactics in a new way? Ridge:   I think a really good book to read on this is Steal like an Artist. If you just go through there,

Copywriter Julia Reinisch is in the house for the 95th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. Julia chatted with Kira and Rob about a variety of topics from how she came to join The Copywriter Think Tank to her favorite dive spots in Roatán. Long time listeners know that we like to talk with copywriters at all stages in their business, and while Julia is not a beginner, many listeners will relate to the effort Julia is going through to build a thriving freelance business. Here’s what we covered: •  how curiosity and a suggestion from her family led her from social work to copywriting •  where she found her very first client and the kind of work resonated with her •  how her background in social work makes her a better writer •  the kind of work she does as an in-house copywriter at a University •  how she learned to talk to customers and thicken her skin with a job in retail •  the unique steps she took to start her own copywriting business •  why Julia thinks every copywriter needs a great website •  what she’s done to take her business to the next level •  her thoughts about connecting with other writers in the Copywriter Think Tank •  what she’s done to pitch her employer on hiring her as a copywriter •  the advice she has for copywriters just starting out •  her thoughts about working with other writers •  what she’s doing with her business in the future •  her favorite dive spots in Roatán To get this episode in your earbuds, visit iTunes, Stitcher or your favorite podcast app. Or simply click the play button below. And if you don’t like listening, you can scroll down for a full transcript (there’s even an option to download it and read it later).   The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Yeti MooseJaw REI Jax Asana The Copywriter Accelerator The Copywriter Think Tank Mary’s Crack The Blue Cave Julia on Twitter MomentumCopy.com Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group Intro: Content (for now) Outro: Gravity Full Transcript: Rob:   What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That's what Kira and I do every week at The Copywriter Club Podcast. Kira:   You're invited to join the club for Episode 95, as we chat with in-house and freelance copywriter, Julia Reinish, about her move from social work to copywriting, what she did to pitch herself to a big client, the struggles of a full time writing job and the place adventure plays in her life. Welcome Julia. Julia:  Hey, Rob, Kira, thank you so much for having me. Kira:   Yeah, great to have you here as one of the members of our think tank, which I'm sure we'll talk about a little bit more. But, Julia, can you just start with your story? How did you end up as a copywriter? Julia:  Yeah. Personally, I've always been a really creative person. Growing up I guess, I was the child that probably kept my parents super entertained all the time because I was always finding something new to explore and something to really learn a lot about. I know at one point I got really interested in everything about Atlantis and Lost City type things and codes at one point. I thought that I was totally going to grow up and be a spy. So just all kinds of creative things like that. But one thing that's remained constant, I guess, is that I've always been really interested in writing. I won my first writing contest at nine years old I think. From there, did a lot of writing in school and everything as everyone else does, but I was always getting recognized for it. So you would think that when I'd get to college and everything, I'd want to actually pursue that as a career, but I didn't. I guess a part of me just really wanted to reach more of the sensitive part of myself. I would say I'm a very sensitive person and I'm always really keeping an eye out for people who are having a hard time in life. And I actually decided to study social work. That did not make my family super happy because they thought that I wouldn't be able to make a decent living for myself, but there's lots of people who are doing well doing that, so I guess to kind of make them happy too, and because they know me super well, I also studied communications and journalism in college. So right after school, I graduated and I worked as a social worker for about five years. I worked primarily with folks who were homeless, housing a lot of refugees, a lot of young adults who aged out of the foster care system and that was actually really cool for me to be a part of seeing people's transformations, seeing people in really heartbreaking situations, but seeing the resilience in them was really inspiring to me. But the thing is, is being a really sensitive person, I would get really overwhelmed with it and I definitely, within those five years, got burned out. I would go home feeling like I had headaches every day. I would feel like I'm not even making a difference and I was just like, "Man, this cannot be what life is all about for me. Something's not working here." So I got really interested in learning more about my self-care and just being aware of that. Finally one day my family, they asked me, "Why aren't you pursuing writing? We've always seen you as a writer. We've seen how much you enjoy it. Why don't you look into it more?" So when they told me that, I thought about it and I looked back at my couple jobs that I'd had in social work. And even then, I had been finding ways to write. For example, in the refugee program when I was working with housing refugees, a lot of these folks would be coming in and we wouldn't know that they were coming into the United States. We would get a week's notice basically and we would have to go out and find a landlord that would be willing to work with this family of eight or nine people and be willing to rent to them, even though they had never met them. And that's a pretty hard sale, especially ... I was in Minneapolis in St. Paul at the time. But that's a really hard sell, so I had noticed that a lot of landlords, they just weren't getting it. And I was getting asked the same questions over and over again. So, I had actually written up this, I guess you would say it was like a facts document, FAQ, frequently asked questions document, where I took some of the main questions that landlords were asking me over and over. Like, are these folks coming in here legally? How do I know they'll be good renters? How do I know they'll pay the rent? And I created this little marketing slick you would probably say, and I started using that for landlords. Then, there were just other projects here and there that I noticed that I was finding excuses to do those kinds of things, even though I was still in social work. So I was thinking, "Okay. I've never really seen myself as a fictional writer." It never really interested me that much. But, there has to be a way to actually do more of this business writing. There has to be a way to do more of this. So I started doing some research online and I don't even know where exactly I found it, but I stumbled upon the term copywriting. And I thought, "Well this is kind of interesting." A lot of people when they hear copywrite, they think it's just about legal stuff and protecting property and things, but I dug more into it and I realized this persuasive writing, writing that sells, writing that's informative and educational for folks like that, kind of writing really interested me. That was the kind of writing that I had been doing, honestly, for years. Even as a social work, I was a camp counselor, like all these different things. I had been doing that kind of writing for a while. So, I started to look into it more. I looked on LinkedIn and this is actually where I found my very first client, was on LinkedIn. They were asking for blog writers. They represented a cleaning services company. So I started writing blogs for a cleaning company. Not exactly the most interesting stuff to write about, not very thrilling so to say, but I got a few blogs on there that actually went pretty viral for a while. I know I had one that was about 11 ways not to use vinegar to clean your home or something, and I guess that was a huge hit for some reason. Rob:   I'm going to interrupt right here. Julia:  Yeah, please. Rob:   What are they? Am I misusing vinegar at my home right now? I don't know. Julia:  Oh, man, Rob, I would have to look it up. I know something about you don't want to use it on your computer screen because it can remove the coating on your computer. I think it makes eggs coagulate, so you don't want to use it to pick up eggs off the floor, stuff like that. Rob:   Good to know. Thank you. Julia:  Well, I'm glad I could save you the trouble of that. I'll find it for you. And I can help you read that later. But, yeah, so I did some writing for them. Eventually, I got referred to a trucking company. I wrote a bunch of blogs and stuff for this trucking company, which was ... man, that was a crazy ride. But I realized as I was doing this, I really enjoyed the research part. These weren't the most sexy industries to write about per say. They're hard to spice up sometimes. But I enjoyed the challenge of it. So I would find ... I was talking to people and asking to talk to people who were truck drivers and I bought the CDL training manual just to really dig into it. I realized how much I loved that research part of it and really trying to get my head into what , for example, a truck driver, they're driving all the time. They don't have a lot of free time. And when they do have free time, they're going to eat or sleep. So it was a good challenge for me to try to think about what are these folks going to actually take the time to read in their very,

Email expert and sometime copywriter, Val Geisler, is our guest for the 94th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. In this episode, we go deep on the ins and outs of emails—especially on-boarding sequences which can make a huge difference to your client acquisition processes (and the one you create for your clients). We cover: •  how Val went from stage manager to copywriter and email marketing genius •  what she did to learn business skills then start her own business •  how managing stage productions has made her a better writer •  Val’s processes for designing and mapping email sequences •  why she added strategy to the services she provides (in addition to copy) •  Val’s secret for getting clients (that we’ve mentioned on the podcast before) •  the backdoor Val uses to get results from her clients •  the writing and testing tools Val uses as an email copywriter •  how she presents then delivers final copy to her clients •  how she sets up projects and charges for them •  her advice on welcome sequences to onboard new customers •  the mistakes everyone makes with their email marketing •  her favorite tips for working with VAs •  the new book she is writing about her experience as a woman in the tech industry •  how marketing is like a dinner party •  how to get her regular email tear-downs Val also shared how you can get her regular email tear-downs if you want to keep learning about email marketing. To get this excellent episode in your earbuds, click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript. It’s also available on iTunes, Stitcher and your favorite podcast app.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Lululemon LucidChart Litmus Intercom ActiveCampaign Drip Drift Airstory ValGeisler.com @lovevalgeisler Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group Intro: Content (for now) Outro: Gravity   Full Transcript: Kira:   What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes, and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That’s what Rob and I do every week at The Copywriter Club Podcast. Rob:   You’re invited to join the club for episode 94 as we chat with copywriter and email strategist Val Geisler about email copywriting strategy and what it takes to convert casual visitors into happy customers, writing a book, and how thinking about your marketing is a lot like hosting a dinner party. Kira:   Welcome, Val. Rob:   Hey, Val. Val:    Hey, guys. Thanks for having me. Episode 94, that’s so huge. Kira:   It’s exciting. I realized before you jumped on here that you are the only guest we’ve had on this podcast that I have also interviewed on my previous podcast from a previous lifetime, the Bridal Rebellion Podcast in 2015. I was lucky enough to interview you about your wedding, and planning, and systems, so I feel like this is just coming full circle. Val:    Wow. Yeah. That’s like a blast from the past. It just kind of proves my theory that the journey you go on in your career is one that’s pretty unpredictable, and that if you would have told me in 2015 that I would be sitting here talking to you about copywriting and email marketing, I probably would have laughed at you, but here we are. I didn’t have this plan, but this is where the life has taken me as I’ve let plans unfold. Kira:   All right, so let’s start with your story. You didn’t expect to end up as a copywriter, so how did you end up as a copywriter? Val:    Sure. Well, I have a degree in theater, so I went to school for theater production. I was a stage manager and worked in theater for several years. Stage managers are the people behind the scenes who make everything happen. They tell everybody where to be and what they should be wearing, and props to be carrying, and when the lights go on, and all those things. When I worked in theater, I traveled a ton and got really tired of not having the same hairdresser ever, or ... I really had no, my parents’ address was my home address, so I didn’t really have a home. I just lived in extended-stay hotels, and Airbnb wasn’t a thing then, so like long-term rentals off of Craigslist. I got pretty tired of the nomad lifestyle and was looking for a job that would be similar to what I was doing and found event management. I worked in events both at non-profits, for-profits, and for small business owners. I worked mostly in the wedding industry, very much like theater, organizing a tiny little production multiple times a weekend. Did that for a couple of years, and in that process of doing all of these events, having a pretty crazy stressful job, managing weddings and people and personalities. I started doing yoga, and when I was in yoga class one day, someone was talking about the company Lululemon. Lululemon Athletica was still a super small company in the United States. It was still a big brand in Canada, but there weren’t very many stories here in the U.S. I investigated the brand a little bit, fell in love with them as a company, and started applying for jobs in my area. I ended up opening a store. I lived in Virginia. I opened up a store in Richmond, Virginia, at the time, and Lululemon taught me how to run a business. This is where it’s like all these things I never would have guessed the next step, and, trust me, we’re getting to copywriter here, but I learned everything about running a business, from marketing, to budgeting, to leading a team. Lululemon really gave me the tools that I needed, and they said, “Okay. We’re going to pay the rent on the store and give you all the product, but you build the community. You build the team. You build everything you need to make the store a success.” I did that, and at the same time, the leadership in the company also says, “Unless you really want to be here in this company forever, we want you to take what you learn here and go out into the world and do a greater good with it.” At the time, this is when we met, Kira. I was getting married, and my fiancé at the time said, “Well, you have all these skills from running businesses. You know how to organize things on the backend. You’ve mentioned a few business owners that you know who need help, who need organizing. Is now a good time to leave the brand and go work for yourself?” I listened, and I took the leap, and I worked for myself. I reached out to those business owners that I knew and said, “Hey, how can I help you? You’ve mentioned this thing, and this thing, and this thing, and I actually know how to do all those things.” They were things like writing blog posts for them, uploading them to WordPress, answering emails, taking phone calls, even. I did like a virtual receptionist for a client. I was a virtual assistant before I even knew that that was a thing. I was just helping business owners. While doing that, writing on my blog, writing for other people’s blogs, learning about writing, copywriting, content creation, and my business really grew in those next couple of years. I got married, found out I was pregnant, knew I wanted to take a maternity leave, so I hired a little team of virtual assistants who I really acted as their project manager. They took on all the doing while I was away, and then I came back from my maternity leave and hopped back into the business as a project manager and really started worked with clients one on one on organizing their teams, and their systems and processes. Communication is a huge piece of that puzzle, and that was something I helped people with more often than anything else was, how are they communicating with their clients? What does their client journey look like? What is the experience for their customers on the other end? I worked with a lot of creative business owners who were like, “I just want to design websites,” and I was like, “Yeah. Okay, but you have people that pay you to design those websites, and you have to take care of them.” I was doing all of that, and was working in software myself, like working with different systems and tools, and ended up with a job offer from one of those tools I was using, an email marketing software, to write on their blog. They liked my writing, and I was in a place in my life where I thought, “Well, I think freelancing has been really fun. It’s also been really exhausting,” and we were thinking about having another child. It just felt like a good time to try this in-house thing on, so I went full-time at the email marketing company and worked there for a year and a half, did end up having another kid. After she was born, I went back to freelancing, but now, I had all this email marketing knowledge. I realized there was a total juxtaposition between the customer experience stuff I had been doing from theater days all the way through, the line through is pretty steady, so all that customer experience stuff and then taking on the email marketing work that I had done for the last year and a half and honing my chops as a writer, and I combined all of that into basically my dream job of being an email marketing strategist and copywriter for B2C software companies. Rob:   Wow. That is… Val:    It’s a long and winding path. Rob:   That is a heck of a career path, and, I mean, it’s almost like you had no choice but to become a writer, because you’ve got such a broad breadth of experience from starting a business, to working in a startup, to doing your own thing now. I want to go all the way back to that theater manager role where you started out and talk a little bit about, I’m assuming that having to manage all of the moving pieces of a stage production actually prepared you, in a real way, for all of the stuff that came after, as a project manager, as a leader, as somebody who has to get people in the right places at the right time and coordinate all of this stuff.

Copywriter Erica Strauss joins Kira and Rob for the 93rd episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. Erica is doing something a little different in her business than what most copywriters are doing... working with a direct sales company to add another revenue stream to her personal business. So far it's working, and we wanted to know more. We also talked about: •  how Erica started her copywriting career at age 10 •  what she learned about copywriting from working as a gossip columnist •  why she decided NOT to finish her master’s degree •  how Erica makes retainers work for her andher clients •  what she typically charges for one of her projects •  how she started copy coaching •  the challenges of growing a copywriting business quickly •  what she did to overcome the burnout that comes with so much work •  how her business is shifting to include other income streams •  what to consider if you’re interested in network marketing •  how Erica connects with clients and gets to know their voice and stories •  what she’s doing on Facebook Live and her tips for doing it well •  why relationships are so important as copywriters •  where her business is going from here •  why she loves rap and EDM—and how it makes her a better write We also talked about her processes and tips for writing taglines and naming products—and why she offers this service to her clients. And as we often do, we asked her about the future of copywriting. To hear what Erica had to share, click the play button below or scroll down for a full transcript.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Lisa Vanderpump Marie Forleo EricaLeeXO.com Erica on Facebook Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group Intro: Content (for now) Outro: Gravity   Full Transcript: Kira:   The Copywriter Club Podcastis sponsored by Airstory, the writing platform for professional writers who want to get more done in half the time. Learn more at Airstory.co/club. Rob:   What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That’s what Kira and I do every week at the Copywriter Club Podcast. Kira:   You’re invited to join the club for episode 93 as we chat with copywriter and communications strategists Erica Lee Strauss about her stint as a gossip columnist. Helping entrepreneurs communicate their stories, burning out and finding a purpose, copy coaching and her love of EDM. Welcome Erica. Rob:   Hey Erica. Erica:Hi guys. Thanks for having me. Rob:   We’re stocked to have you. Kira:   Yeah, so Erica, let’s start with your story, how did you end up as a copywriter? Erica:Oh my gosh you guys. Okay, so honestly I was one of those annoying little kids who always knew what they wanted to do. I was sending out manuscripts and God knows what they were like. I was sending out manuscripts at age 10. Actually started an online magazine back in the days of like AOL and CompuServe, and kind of had my first mailing list back then. Had a little mailing list of like, I guess it wasn’t so little, it was 2000 people. I had a little online magazine and just always knew that I wanted to write or like wanted to do something. I thought it would be with editorial basically, I thought I would do something in magazines. I actually wrote my first article for a magazine at age 10, because somebody at Girls Life Magazine got wind of the fact that I was this 10 year old having this, writing this online magazine. They contacted me to write an article for their reader’s issue, and as soon as I saw my name in print, I was completely hooked. I just knew that that was going to be the thing, like I definitely was going to go down the magazine journalism path. I did. I went to college for that, and it was kind of during that weird time where everyone wasn’t sure really what was going on. Like Facebook was just becoming popular, social media was becoming a thing and people were like print is dying and like newspapers are going to die and magazines are going to die and this whole sorts of things. I kind of switched gears and I decided, well I’ll just be an English major, and I’ll write poetry, because that’s clearly a better career path. I made the switch and ended up graduating with a degree in English, but after that, I still was like okay, so I really did, my whole life I’d imagined I would do something with magazines, so I ended up just applying for different jobs through Craigslist. I found this job that was a work at home job as a celebrity gossip reporter. It was like some $15 an hour, nothing crazy at all, but I got to work from home and it was all online. I ended up doing that. That was like my first big girl job, but because it wasn’t really like paying enough, I started looking in other areas. Like this is cool, I’m getting paid from this one company. How else can I expand this and maybe make more money? This was like when E-lance, I think maybe it had just popped up, and so yeah. I got on E-lance and started finding a couple other clients, and so I was juggling a couple of clients. I didn’t really even understand what copywriting was at that point, I just knew that I could write and I knew the editorial side of things. I took on a job like a side gig is like a fashion blogger and copywriter, because they wanted me to do their product descriptions and their email blasts. I kind of like was earning as I learned about it and granted none of that really paid that much either. I eventually ended up taking a job in-house at a beauty brand and that’s where I really kind of learned what copy actually was. Started doing my research into it and kind of went from there. Rob:   I want to back up and talk a little bit more about being a gossip columnist. I have this sense, that to do that really well, you need to be at the club scene, and you need to be hanging out with the paparazzi.  How did you do it working from home? What did that involved and how did it make you a better writer? Erica:You would think that, that’s what it was, but actually what a lot of these, even like TMZ and stuff. What we would do particularly at my website is, TMZ would actually go out there and get the story. Then we would re-report. I would have Google alerts for like, I had specific niches, so the Kardashians was one of mine and it was probably one of my favorites, because they had a lot going on and they always do. Keeping up with them is hard. I would have those Google alerts and then literally just have to re-report that story within like a certain time frame. It was very like, yeah, I could work from home, but I was kind of, I had to be like on my phone. I had to be like in the know, so it wasn’t as cool as like going out and talking with celebrities and stuff. Although, I did have a couple celebrities re-tweet my stories. Sometimes they weren’t happy about them, but I think the thing about it and how it made me a better writer, which is a great question, is that, because I was writing about the same people and kind of the same things over and over, I had to find different ways to describe things and different ways to drop people. In like, how do you make people care about, I don’t know, Kim Kardashian’s hair for like five days in a row, if that’s like what people are reporting about? How do you do that? It forced me to get really creative and it forced me to make things that maybe like weren’t necessarily that interesting, sound super, super interesting. Which I think, not that, that’s what we do as copywriters, but we want to make sure that things are intriguing to people, right? We want to entertain them in a way, and so I think it really taught me how to entertain people basically. Kira:   You mentioned it, so who re-tweeted your gossip? Erica:Lisa Vanderpump. Kira:   Oh nice. Erica:Yeah, she’s Real Housewives of Beverly Hills. Kira:   Very cool. Erica:Yeah. Kira:   What was the best gossip that you ever reported that you were proud of today? Erica:I don’t know if I’m proud of any of it, to be honest.  Some of it was fun, and you know, part of the reason I started looking for these other gigs, besides just the fact that it wasn’t like paying my rent and doing all that is that, I did feel like I needed some deeper meaning in what I was doing. Right, I’m like, this is cool and this is fun. It was fine for fresh out of college girl, but then I was like, there’s got to be more. If I’m going to do something, I have to really believe in it, so I think that’s kind of where the disconnect was for me. Rob:   That makes a lot of sense. I noticed on your website you talk about how you also have half of a Master’s degree. I love that you say that, because I think so many copywriters get hung up on credentials and needing to get the Master’s Degree or finishing things. You’re sort of out there saying, “You know what, I started it and it wasn’t the right direction and a retooled.” Will you talk a little bit about that, about not needing credentials and how you’ve gone forward using your skill set and just developing your career serendipitously in some ways? Erica:Yeah. Yeah, half a Master’s degree, so that’s when I was in-house actually at the beauty brand. I was working full-time and decided I’ve just started working full-time. I’m like why don’t I start a master’s degree too, so I don’t know what I was thinking first of all. Second of all, it became this thing where I felt like I was really learning so much more, doing the actual work not only in-house, but I still did dabble with like freelance clients on the side. I’m like, I’m learning so much more doing my own independent research granted, it gave me a very solid foundation. There were some things I probably never would have done.

Copywriter and Marketing Consultant, Eric Bakey, steps into the studio with Kira and Rob for the 92nd episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. We met Eric a few months ago and got to talking about his approach to his business. It’s different than a lot of other copywriters’, so we thought it would be interesting to talk about how he works with his clients. In this interview, we cover: •  how Eric went from the army to construction to writing a book to copywriting •  why he doesn’t call himself a copywriter (even though he writes copy) •  Eric’s onboarding process and the “found money” blueprint •  the “15 minutes -> hour -> day -> long term contract” roadmap •  how he connected with Dan Kennedy (and the results for his business) •  what you need to know about packaging your services like Eric •  how he uses sketches in his customer interactions •  what he does when clients buy the “found money” blueprint •  how to set up a retainer model so you don’t get burned •  why Eric treats his copy the same way an artist treats her work •  how he turned $80 of Facebook ads into $30,000 in sales •  Eric’s book recommendation for building a steady stream of sales •  why it’s important to create a list of your best 100 clients •  what Eric’s regular work day looks like And if that weren’t enough, we asked Eric how he uses cartoons in his business and why there are so many opportunities for copywriters today. We also sneaked in a question about his favorite tattoo (he has quite a few to choose from). Ready to hear it? Visit iTunes, Stitcher or your favorite podcast app. Or scroll down and click the play button below, where you’ll also find lots of links and a full transcript.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Strength from Within by Eric Bakey Jocko Willink Dan Kennedy Renegade Millionaire Business Model Canvas Ultimate Sales Machine by Chet Holmes 93 Extraordinary Referral Systems by Jay Abraham Sean D’Souza Joe Schriefer Ray Edwards Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group Intro: Content (for now) Outro: Gravity Full Transcript: Kira:  What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That’s what Rob and I do every week at The Copywriter Club Podcast. Rob:  You’re invited to join the club for episode 92 as we chat with author, copywriter, and combat vet, Eric Bakey, about his long and winding road to copywriting the “Found Money” Blueprint, cartooning, writing for his niche vet-preneurs, and which of his one or two tattoos is his favorite. Kira:  Welcome, Eric. Rob:  Welcome, Eric. Eric:  Thanks for having me. Rob:  Yeah, we’re thrilled. Kira:  Yeah, great to have you. So we met you through Brian Kurtz’s Titans Masterclass. We’re both excited to hear more about your story, which is a great place to start. How did you end up as a copywriter? Eric:  Well, I joined the Army after high school, and I learned how to blow stuff up and mop floors. Neither of them are very lucrative, so I had to start all over again into construction when I got out. I was sick of working and building someone else’s empire, so I decided to write a book as an escape from the corporate world. And then I learned that the publisher, after they make the initial push for your book, they do not care about whether you sell anymore. So I had to start writing copy if I wanted to sell any books, and you have to sell a lot of books if you want to make any money. That’s how I kind of how I got started in copywriting. Rob:  So tell us a little bit about your book. If that’s the doorway to get into copywriting, why did you decide to write it? What does it cover and when you started to promote it, what are some of the things that you learned in order to make that happen? Eric:  So I was following the typical internet marketing pyramid in that I was going to use the book as a front end to my online personal training business. So the book is called Strength From Within: The Anti-Meathead Approach To Fitness. You’ve got to own your keywords, so if you type in “Anti-Meathead,” it’s number one on Amazon and Google. And it was really to support my online personal training business. It’s the fastest way to get unbelievably strong without going to the gym. And it kind of dialed in my USP after writing the book and after being book-solid as a personal trainer. But I decided that I really like growing businesses more than I like growing biceps. So I transitioned to a copywriting business exclusively. Kira:  Wow, okay. So what does your business look like today? What do you spend your time on? What services do you offer? Eric:  When people ask me what I do, I tell them I’m a combat imagineer. And they go, “What does that mean?” Kira:  What does that ... Eric:  And so I ask people, “Do you know how much you can spend in order to acquire your best customers?” And of course they don’t, typically. So then again, I create problems for people, and I’m an ethical troublemaker. And so I kind of just play with people a little bit, and they find out that ... “Wow, I need somebody like you on my team.” So I get people ... Mostly a direct marketing consultant for insider lingo, but most consultants are not really all that effective. So I decided to not call myself a copywriter or sell my widget, but to make something a league of my own. A little bit difficult. Kira:  No, I like that. So why don’t you call yourself a copywriter? Because you’re definitely writing copy. So what’s the reasoning behind that? Eric:  I will write copy. I write a lot of copy. But often, the businesses are not ready for copy. They come to me for copy, but they’re not really ready for it. I have a whole four-module process before I ever even write copy for somebody that allows them to scale without spending a cent on advertising. Being a copywriter, I would love to get them to the point where they’re ready to write me a big, fat check for copywriting and royalties and all that, but we need to get them dialed into their most effective before they ever spend a cent on copywriting or advertising or anything like that. I hopefully build them up to a point where hiring me to write copy is a no-brainer. Rob:  Yeah, I’m really intrigued by how you work with your clients and your process for it. Would you be able to walk us through like what does a typical engagement with you look like? Where does the customer come from and how do you go through those four modules until you get to the point where you are either writing copy or you are doing some other kind of consulting with them where you’re earning real money? Eric:  So I definitely am earning real money on the rip. I wanted to figure out how to get paid for my research phase and how to make research sexy for the clients I work with because nobody really wants to do that, and it’s really what you need to do in order to write effective copy. So I’ll talk to anybody for 15 minutes, and I want to make the 15-minute call not a strategy session, so I called it a triage call where I help them stop hemorrhaging cash from whatever their marketing is doing. I mean, marketing is a matter of survival, and I’ve just kind of dialed in the words that I know people ... That get their attention. And that’s copywriting, that’s sales scripting. So I will talk to anybody for 15 minutes. If they seem like a good fit, then I do my hour-long process, which is really they’re on the hook for an hour, but it’s a half a day of consulting. If they like my Found Money Blueprint, I don’t know whether that can help them or not, but I can deliver them a one-page strategic plan to find cash. If they want my help to go get it, then they can hire me for a day. And then during the day, we outline the entire communications strategy, and sometimes that involves writing copy, and sometimes it doesn’t. And they have teams that want to write their copy, and I can chief some of their stuff, and we kind of go from there. If they want me after the day, they can put me on retainer or write copy. It’s kind of up to the client. Rob:  And are those the four modules, starting with the triage call and then stepping through? Or are the four modules you mentioned something different? Eric:  Yeah, it was 15 minutes will get you an hour. An hour will get you a day. A day will get you a month, and each one of those modules is a month. About after four to six months, then I can start writing copy for you. Rob:  Okay. Interesting. Yeah, so lots of questions about this, but I want to go back to your combat vet experience before we leave that altogether because obviously most people who serve in the armed forces, that becomes a really big part of them. I think that is a part of who you serve at least in some of your copywriting business. What did you take from your experience in the military that informs what you do today in your copywriting business? Eric:  So I was really afraid to look at my background and apply it to copywriting. It was until I got pushed by Jocko Willink ... He actually wrote a book called Extreme Ownership. And he started doing these musters, and he called me out at one of these musters. He actually wrote the book describing the heroism of my specific unit. Kira:  Oh, wow. Eric:  And we all look up to the Navy Seals because that’s what you see on Hollywood, and they really are badass. The level of training, they’re the 1% of the 1% top tier. So whenever you go into a bar or hang out with guys or whatever, it’s like, “Yeah, I was in the military.” It always leads to some questions that I don’t really feel like answering. So I never really wanted to lead with it especially as I create this new identity as a copywriter. I never really wanted to lead with the military thing.

Persuasion expert and copywriter Bushra Azhar joins Kira and Rob for the 91st episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. This is a fun one. We covered a lot of ground with Bushra, beginning with her meteoric rise and success (she worked hard for it) and the principles she teaches in her books and webinars. The stuff we covered includes: •  how Bushra went from corporate consultant to copywriter and landed her first client •  how her business shifted when she launched an online course •  why she worked around the clock—for pennies—for weeks and the massive impact it had on her business •  how she made $7500 by making a single presentation •  why it’s harder to get results from Facebook groups today vs. a few years age •  why you should never PM people with advice on Facebook—and what to do instead •  brand positioning—how to do it and what not to do •  the 8 persuasion triggers and how to use them •  what accountants use for birth control (it’s a joke, people) •  what Bushra’s business looks like today •  the mistakes she’s made on her way to making more than $1 million There’s a ton of value in this one—you won’t want to miss the discussion of the persuasion triggers which will help you improve your writing whether you write BoF copy or ToF content. To get this one in your ear buds, visit iTunes, Stitcher or click the play button below. You can read and download a full transcript by scrolling down. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Copyhackers article Laura Belgray Mass Persuasion Method by Bushra Ashar ThePersuasionRevolution.com Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group Intro: Content (for now) Outro: Gravity Full Transcript: Rob: What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That’s what Kira and I do every week at The Copywriter Club Podcast. Kira: You’re invited to join the club for episode 91, as we chat with copywriter and autoher of Mass Persuasion Method, Bushra Azhar, about her story; persuasion triggers and why you need to use them; and how she’s found success creating programs for entrepreneurs; what she wishes she had done differently; and her advice for copywriters who want to grow quickly. Kira:  Welcome, Bushra. Rob:  Hey, Bushra. Bushra:  Hey Kira; hey Rob! Thank you so much for having me; it is an utter honor. And yes, I just clapped my hands, so if you heard a blast in your ear, I am sorry! Rob:  I’m clapping too. Kira: Laughs. Let’s all clap! Bushra: So it doesn’t look awkward, so I don’t look like a two-year old. But, thank you so much for having me. It is an utter pleasure; I am very excited. Kira: No, we’re great. You’ve been at top of our list actually. We’ve wanted to have you on the podcast for a while. So glad you are finally here. And Bushra, a great place to start is just with your story, especially for anyone who has not heard of you before. How did you end up running your business, and copywriting, and persuasion? Bushra:  Oh, okay. So first off all, thank you so much. It’s a funny, funny note that I will tell, which I will think, it is probably... like I’m making a massive boo-boo in front of all the copywriters community, but I have to say this: you just introduced me, and you said “copywriter”, and the thing is, I don’t identify myself as a copywriter, because I have never taken any copywriter training. And, when I started my business, I wasn’t really sure which copywriting was which. So it the w-r-i-t-e, or is the r-i-g-h-t? Kira:  Laughs. Rob:  Laughs. Bushra:  And I said okay, which is which? I just knew that I’m good at using words to make a sales argument. That’s something that I’ve always done. That has always been my strength. But I never really thought there was a need for something like this, so when I started my business, I positioned myself as a persuasion strategist. I was not comfortable calling myself a copywriter, even though a lot of what I do is copywriting, but if you were to mention copywriting principles, I would not know what they are, simply because I’ve never been formally trained as a copywriter. So, I was in consulting—okay, I changed a gazillion professions—but the last thing that I was doing was, I was working as a consultant in Saudi Arabia; I worked with some big Saudi companies. It was really great. And then I stopped, decided to dip my toes into the murky waters of online business; started 2014, and started it kind of like an experiment: okay, I’m just going to try it out, I’m not going to tell anyone, let’s see how it goes—most likely fail and make an utter fool of myself. I was, like, absolutely sure. So, I never told anyone, and I just started basically just put together a landing page, standing writing articles and using the psychology of persuasion in business in different ways. Again, the same thing that I was doing in my consulting work; how to dismiss his argument; how to build a page; how to craft a great proposal, how to craft a great email—really, anything—when it comes to written or in-person persuasion. And I put together a website. I started guest posting, and the very first client that I got was actually from a guest post that I wrote for Copy Hackers for Jo, and I’m eternally grateful to Jo for giving me that opportunity. So yeah, that’s how it started. Someone read my article on CopyHackers, which is still is there—it still is very popular, it still sends me traffic—and she approached me and she said, okay, I really liked your article. I liked the way you write, and I want to work with you, and I can’t find you services page. And I was like, oh my God, oh my God! Someone wants to pay me money! And I just put together a services page like I would do for a consulting project. I didn’t even have a Paypal account! So I created a Paypal account, I just sent her a link, and she sent me money!I was like, okay, what is this? What’s going on here? So again, that’s how it started, and then from then on, now it’s still—as you would probably agree with me—it still gives you a lot of joy when you get the pingof a new sale, but there’s nothing like that first sale, when someone comes to you, and you don’t really trust yourself, but someone out there is actually willing to trust you and give you money. [convertkit form=5199467] Rob: So you get that first client in...what were you charging that client? What were you doing for them, and how did your business roll on from there? ‘Cause everybody loves that first client... Bushra: Yes! Rob: ...And we get really excited when like, Hey great, we can do this! It’s a business. And then we finish up that project, and then...crickets. There’s no second client lined-up. So, walk us through like the first couple of months of growing your business and working with those clients. Bushra: Okay, great. So I walk you through the first three months because that was, I think four months—the first four months: July, August, September, October—almost four months when I was only doing client work, because in October—I started in July—in October, I launched an online course. So when you have an online course, things kind of change a bit. It’s not just client work, but for the first four months, and you have to understand, I’m someone who’s not a native English speaker, someone who has never been great as a copywriter, zero online connections, no one knows that I’m on the internet, at least not in this capacity. So I was known as a corporate consultant. I was known in that field, but no one really knew me in this new role, this new positioning. So what I did was, I got back to this client, I reviewed her website—again, I don’t know copywriting principles, but I know persuasion; I know sales arguments—so, I basically helped her. I charged her $500; I helped her build a sales argument flow on her page and her services page, and her product descriptions. So that’s what I did for her. And then, like you said, I was like, Okay, I got the first one....what next? Because I don’t know what else to do! But that was a fool-proof of concept, so I knew that there were people out there that were looking for help like this. I got the testimonial from her, so she was in the product-less business, and she got immediate results from making those changes, so, that was awesome. And then what I did, which was kind of crazy considering that I was still working at consulting at that time—I was working full-time in consulting—so what I did was, I went ahead and I started posting on social media, on Facebook groups. I always ran ads for about, I think I spent about $100 to run ads, but I basically, all I did was I offered free website reviews, free sessions. So I did one hundred free website reviews. I finished them all in three weeks. From those one hundred reviews, eighteen of those people actually gave me testimonials, and almost 50% of those people actually decided to work with me; some of them worked with me right away, so as soon as I sent them the free review, they wanted to know what’s next, and the others actually bought a course as soon as I launched it. So that was a huge game changer for me. Even though the three weeks that it took me to kind of do those hundred reviews, it was really painful; I barely slept, I was literally working around the clock. But once that was done, I never had to do that volume of work again, because I got that eighteen testimonials from someone who’s only been in business for three months. That was amazing. And then, obviously, these people were raving about me because they were blown away that something free could be so useful, so valuable. So that’s kind of the way it started. I did a tonof client-work, and again, even though it was paying me pennies at that time,

Wow, ninety episodes. That was fast, right? For the 90th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, Kira and Rob talk about some of the challenges of running a growing Facebook group and managing competing cultures, expectations, and conversations that cross the line. Some of the topics we covered in this rare guest-less episode include: •  what Rob has been doing with his business for the last two months •  a little bit about Kira’s experiment with a “mini micro agency” •  the program experiment that “failed” •  why we created the Facebook group and why we sometimes let things go farther than some people feel appropriate •  balancing trust and intent with censorship •  the place for scarcity in copywriting •  how scarcity impacts us as copywriters •  what Kira does when she finds herself in a scarcity mindset •  how to create scarcity the right way Plus we talked a bit about what’s coming up next for us and the club. We’ve got some great new (and returning) guests joining us in the next few weeks that we’re very excited about. To hear it all, visit iTunes, Stitcher or click the play button below. And as always you can scroll down for a full transcript. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: The Copywriter Accelerator The Copywriter Think Tank The Hidden Brain Scarcity Episode Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group Intro: Content (for now) Outro: Gravity Full Transcript: Kira: What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That’s what Rob and I do every week at The Copywriter Club Podcast. Rob: You’re invited to join the club for episode 90, as Kira and I talk about what’s been going on in the Copywriter Club lately, and in our own businesses; how we hope to monitor Facebook discussions moving forward; and why scarcity is such a powerful motivator for your clients, and something you need to watch out for in your own business. Rob: Hey, Kira. Kira: Hey Rob. How’s it going? Rob: It is going awesome. Before we started recording, we were just talking about how we’re both so happy that Spring is here, and spending some time outside. You were going for a run; I’m hoping to get out on my bike and...yeah, things are going good. Kira: Yeah, definitely. Getting outside has helped with the warm weather; I feel like I haven’t done much of that over the last two months, so yeah. This was a first job in a long time. Very slow; very slow pace! Rob: Yeah, I totally get that. So, my bike has been sitting in my garage for way too long, because the handlebar tape broke on my bike, and I fixed it with some packing tape, and that just bugged the heck out of me. So I had this tape sitting, ready to make a repair, and I finally got it done on Saturday, and got out for a ride, and oh my gosh. You know, like ten minutes in, I’m like, why haven’t I been doing this everyday? You know, I miss being on my bike. So, yeah; thank you Spring for getting here, and getting my out of my desk chair, and out into the world. Kira: Yeah. Well I feel like you and I have been hibernating a bit the past....year, maybe? Rob: Laugh. Yeah, a little bit. Kira: And just chugging along on the copywriter club, and putting it together. So what’s been happening in your business? Because we haven’t really talked about your business since episode 80 which was about two months ago, right? Rob: Yeah. So I think we talked right after the live even that we did. Kira: Right. Yeah. Rob: And you know, after the live event, I took on a lot of work, and so for the last two months, have been working really hard on balancing a couple of really large projects, along with what we were doing in The Copywriter Club, and i have to admit, for the last two months, while the work has been steady and the income has been good, it has been, you know—I’ve literally been working 60, 70-hour weeks, and not spending nearly enough time with my family or on myself. And it definitely wears you down. I think you’ve been doing something similar. Kira: And we did the same thing, I guess. I didn’t realize that, but after the event, I feel like January and February were so focused on the event in New York, that I missed the client work, or I felt...I like to get out there; I like to speak to client; i like to book work; I like to make money; I like to sell. SO I think I just got overly zealous and just jumped into client work, and took on a  lot as well. We both did that, and so I definitely booked the biggest two months I’ve ever booked with more projects than really I could handle and decided to look at it like I’m running a micro-agency, and to bring on subcontractors as needed, and really just to treat it like, you know, I’m an agency; I need to operate differently than I have in the past, and this will be an experiment like we always say. So, that’s been my March and April, and while I feel like I have taken away a lot from that and it has helped me grow—which you kind of always have to say right?--it was painful, it was very painful. I don’t know why I put myself through these torturous events just to, like, grow personally. But yeah; I think the client work paired with our launch of our accelerator program which we launched twice a year, and actually we’re going to start launching it just once a year in September, and then the launch of our Think Tank Mastermind group, and then we even launched a new program—the Accelerator Plus—for our former Accelerator members. Which, you know, well we can talk more about that in a minute. Laughs. Rob: Yeah. Well, but yeah I think you’re right. We seemed to have done a lot of similar things. You sort of took on a lot of subcontractors; I didn’t do any subcontracting, or did very little subcontracting, but also took on a partnership project with an agency that, you know, was worth far more than the typical project that I do, and involves several videos and animations and, just a beyond scope of what I’ve done as a freelancer. You know, I used to do that kind of stuff a lot in the agency world before I did my own business, but it’s good to push yourself sometimes, but then you have to let the string sort of set back, and relax, and so hopefully this month, maybe we can do a little bit of that. Kira: No, I don’t think so. I don’t think that’s happened. Yeah, I think it’s just a lesson I need to learn, and I, for some reason, have a hard time learning that lesson, but I do think that I am slowly starting to get it. I just think I need to—I don’t know. I need to feel the pain. I really need to feel it in order to change, and to learn these lessons, like, hey, I should take on less clients while we’re building The Copywriter Club—that makes sense! So, I do feel like sense this crazy few months, you know, I’ve brought on a virtual assistant who is amazing, and will probably have her on the show soon, so that has helped, and I’m working through that very slowly—baby steps—because it’s tricky to on-board people. At least, I have a hard time on-boarding people. And then I’ve been working on just managing my schedule too, to create more space, because I’m the type of person who will just book everyday, like back to back meetings, which I know you’ve done as well, and that’s been really hard for both of us to just go like, no stop. Like we don’t even stop for bathroom breaks. Like we just book it, flat out, all day, calls back to back, which is crazy. So, I am managing my calendar, creating space on Mondays and Fridays, every morning from 9 to 11; just blocking it. Like, just blocking time now, which is something that I had not done in the past. So again, I kind of feel like I need that pain to really motivate me to make the changes that I need to make, and a lot of what we teach other copywriters to do as well. Rob: Yep, that sounds good. And you mentioned that you tried a new product, this Accelerator Plus is what we called it, tentatively—an experiment that we ran, because we wanted to be able to connect with the people who have been in the Accelerator but aren’t ready, for whatever reasons, to move up into the Think Tank, and you know, we put together a little bit of a program, it was a test; we didn’t launch anything, we didn’t really advertise or tell anybody about it, accept for a few of the people who had been in the Accelerator, and with all of the other stuff that was going on in our businesses, and the other launches that we already talked about, it was just too much, you know? It was one of those things where we had all these great intentions about creating something else, and we just felt like we couldn’t give it 100% because of all of that other stuff going on in our lives, so we pulled the plug, which is the first time we’ve ever done anything like that. And as you mentioned earlier, we see everything as an experiment. It’s never a failure to stop something that’s not working, or to stop something that you can’t give 100% to, because you and I want to deliver the very best that we possibly can, and if the experience we’re creating isn’t phenomenal, then we don’t want to be apart of that. And so, yeah. We actually experimented something and then pulled the plug on it, within a month, because it just didn’t feel like it was meeting everybody’s needs. Kira: Yeah, and I feel like it was a good decision, because it allowed us to start having a bigger conversation about what we want to create, what we want to continue to offer... Basically, like, what are our offers; what can we do really well. So I feel like i forced us to think about all the difference pieces because you and I have been in the weeds so much, and I like to operate in the weeds and kind of stay in the weeds, and have a hard time pulling back. So we were forced even to just sit down,

Frameworks specialist, Mel Abraham is our guest for the 89th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. Mel’s got an interesting background that launched him as an expert is building expertise (kind of meta, right?), which means he is the perfect person to talk about client relationships and how to establish your expertise before you work with a client. We talked about: •  how he learned to leverage his experience to build a real business •  how to stop exchanging hours for dollars and sell your true value •  the risks and rewards of project pricing •  what you have to do to get clients past the “yellow light” •  how you can help clients see the value of what you do before they hire you •  what to cover in your first call with a potential client •  how to know if you’re an expert or a thought leader •  the “prolific power of positioning” and how to use it for your business •  all about frameworks and why you need one •  the steps to follow for creating a framework for your business •  how copywriters can build their own credibility As usual, there’s a lot of good stuff in this episode. To hear it, visit iTunes, Stitcher or open up your favorite podcast app and search for The Copywriter Club. Or just scroll down and click the play button below. Keep scrolling for a full transcript. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Thoughtpreneur Academy The Entrepreneur’s Solution by Mel Abraham Stephen Covey James Wedmore Mel’s website Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group Intro: Content (for now) Outro: Gravity   Full Transcript: The Copywriter Club Podcast is sponsored by Airstory, the writing platform for professional writers who want to get more done in half the time. Learn more at Airstory.co/club. Rob: What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That’s what Kira and I do every week at The Copywriter Club Podcast. Kira: You’re invited to join the club for episode 89, as we talk with entrepreneur and business advisor Mel Abraham about building a successful business from nothing, what you need to do to become an influencer and make a real impact, the importance of frameworks, and how to write a national bestseller. Kira: Welcome, Mel. Mel: How are you doing? Rob: Mel, it’s great to have you here. We’re thrilled to be talking to you. Mel: Yeah, it’s fun. Kira: All right Mel, so let’s just start with your story; how did you end up building your online building empire? Mel: Wow. I guess, you know, it’s a non-traditional thing. It wasn’t like I grew up with the internet; I grew up well before the internet, and I was the traditional CPA. I’m a  CPA by education, but I was building an expert business before I knew what an expert business was. And it was pre-internet; I needed to build a practice. I needed to get clients; I needed to get known; I needed to get myself out there, and the only way to do it back then was direct mail, you know; networking; speaking; and writing articles. And that’s what I did to do this. And as time went on, I started to realize that the game that I was sold—swapping hours for dollars—is the absolute worst business model I that could ever be sold to someone, and should be burned at the stake! And I tried to figure out, how do I leverage my expertise, and how do I leverage that stuff? And you know, we may get more into it, but what I was building at the time was as an expert witness, strategic consultant, or businesses. I was helping them build businesses, but I was doing a lot of testimony at trial in litigation, which was such a negative environment, that I got tired of it. And I said, well, where can my skills work and where can I leverage those skills better, and that’s when I started to look at the online space. I was already speaking; I said, so how do I capitalize that? How do I record it? How do I put it out there? And that’s how I really got into this game of the online space, and have been in it now for, well gosh, at least a decade. Rob: When you talk about trading hours for dollars, it’s got to resonate with almost every one of our listeners, because that’s what copywriters do. I want to know more. What’s the secret; what’s the solution to that problem? Mel: The solution is simple. It may not be easy, though. And first is a mindset shift; an attitude shift. What I realized is that when we talk about selling hours, we’re putting ourselves in the commodity space, and selling in commodity’s the worst thing we can do because the only differentiating point at that point in the consumer’s mind is pricing. But that’s not what we do, and when you talk about copywriters, it’s not what you do. You create value, and what we truly live in today, and I think that anything from employee on up, we need to understand this, is that we live in a value-exchange economy. And so we need to forget price; we need to forget costs, and we need to focus on the value exchange. What value do I provide? The transformation, if you will. The solution and what value are they going to give up in return? And when we do that, that changes the dynamics of the relationship greatly. So, let me give you a “for instance”: I get brought into cases that the reality is that, there’s a lot on the line: their businesses are on the line, they’re being sued, and I’m going in to testify. I’m the hired expert to testify. Now they may be sitting at a $20,000,000 lawsuit—let’s reduce the numbers, maybe it’s a $1,000,000 lawsuit—and I go in, I testify and win the case. Now I could quantify my hours and say it, well it took me twenty hours, and at $1,000 an hour, that’s $20,000. And I could say, you know what? I did all right. A thousand bucks an hour is not so bad. The client won a million dollar case. Do you think my client would be upset if I send my bill—and I did it upfront—and I said the cost for me to do this is $50,000? And the answer is “no”. They still got the million out of it, they paid fifty more than my hourly rate, but I’m looking at it through value-exchange. But I’m also looking at it as how much of my life am I giving up: how much aggravation, how much of all of that that I’m giving up, and how much value do they get. We need to think about things from a value standpoint, not a cost and price standpoint, which is a shift in mindset. Kira: Okay, so just to get in the weeds, for people who aren’t familiar with you, why were you the expert witness? What is your expertise and specialty? Mel: So, like I said, I’m educated as a CPA, and I got tired of the traditional stuff: doing the tax returns, and the ticking and tying and bookkeeping, and that kind of stuff. And I realized that, in order for me to get paid well, I needed to do something was that of a higher valued service. And at that time, that industry of being an expert witness—someone that testifies in financial matters—I’d be the type of guy that would get hired to put a Bernie Madoff in jail. Kira: Wow. Mel: And so that’s where I took my skills, focusing in on how do you value businesses; how do you testify in businesses; how do you build businesses; how do you buy and sell businesses. So that’s the background that I have, and that’s the choice I made, was to focus in that litigation evaluation realm. Kira: Okay, cool. And so, for a lot of copywriters, this value-exchange economy concept might be new, or at least, they might be like, yeah—that makes sense. But, it’s so hard for me to do it, especially for new copywriters. Is there a really good first step for someone who’s trading their time for dollars, and wants to make this transition, but is still working on the mindset piece? Mel: This is where I said that it’s simple but not easy. Kira: Right! Mel: And I think that it becomes a choice, and we end up project-pricing something, and here’s the risk: I could project-price something that when you do the math behind it for the hourly rate, you kind of go, I only got a buck and a half an hour! Kira: Right. Mel: Or, when you do the math behind it you look at it and say, I made $3,000 an hour. And, I think with experience, we start to understand that we can get an idea of the breadth of a project, and say, here’s the value it can provide. I’m going to be writing the sales pages. I know what my conversion rates are. I know what my copy is. I’m going to be writing a sequence of emails. I’m going to be writing a sequence of articles. I’m going to be doing all these things that are going to be leading to this. And you simply price it on a project basis, you start to understand what it’s going to take to do it, the kind of revisions. You’re being real careful in your terms and conditions about the fact that you’re not going to have 3,200 available to them. So you corral your exposure, and you bid at a price, and that’s going to take a little while. I think that, until you get to know how to manage the projects to make sure that you hit it on the mark... But after a while, I can look at a project now and say, here’s what it’s going to cost. And I know what’s it going to take me to get done, and I’m goodwith it. Now very few will go south on me, but they still do, and that’s just the cost of doing business, and I think we just need to jump in and say, one—the stuff I do is valuable, and makes a difference, and step in and own that. I talk about the difference between “convincing selling” it, and “conviction selling” it. The worst place we can be is coming from a convincing selling standpoint, and this is an important aspect for copywriters to think about is that we’ve got the red light, we’ve got the green light, and we got the yellow light, like we’re driving. And the most dangerous light is the yellow light, because it’s the light of indecision. Kira: Mmmm.

Our guest for the 88th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast is Facebook Ads Expert Rick Mulready. Kira and Rob sat down with Rick to ask him about his story and how he became the go-to-guy for everything related to Facebook marketing. Here are a few of the things they talked about: •  the mistake he made when he started his business that held him back •  how he structures his days to get more done •  how he’s grown his team to handle the parts of the business he can’t handle •  the programs and products he’s built to sustain his business •  the Insta-story opportunity that’s open for the taking •  how to get started with Facebook (the first step will sound familiar) •  the kinds of ads that are working today •  what you can do with FB ads to increase engagement and make connections •  the images you should be using in your Facebook ads •  how we can use FB ads to market our own (copywriting) businesses and stand out •  what has changed with launches and how Rick is thinking differently about them •  how you can get started with FB ads even if you have no experience •  where you should do Facebook Lives (on the page or in a group) •  how Rick connects with authority figures (and how we can do the same thing) There’s a ton of great information here for anyone who wants to start advertising on Facebook as well as for any copywriter who works with clients who use Facebook to promote their products and services. You won’t want to miss it. To hear the entire interview, click the play button below, or for a full transcript, scroll down. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: RickMulready.com The Art of Paid Traffic The FB Ads Diagnosis Check List (mention troubleshoot) Ashlyn Carter Amy Porterfield Chanti Zak Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group Intro: Content (for now) Outro: Gravity Full Transcript: Kira:What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That’s what Rob and I do every week at The Copywriter Club Podcast. Rob:You’re invited to join the club for episode 88, as we chat with paid traffic expert Rick Mulready, about Facebook advertising and what copywriters need to learn about making it work; how he’s built his own business empire; what’s working and what’s not working in launches today; and the importance of teaming up with the right people to move your business forward. Kira:Welcome, Rick. Rob: Hey, Rick! Rick:I am so honored to be here; thanks for having me on! Rob:We’re excited. Kira:Yeah! Rick:You guys just said ‘episode number 88’; is that what you guys said? Rob:Yeah. Kira: Yeah!Laughs. Rob:88. Can you believe it? Rick: Laughs. No! I was like, I feel like you guys just started this, like it’s...I mean, I know it’s been going amazingly well, but are you doing like four a day or something like that? Rob:Laughs. Kira:Laughs. We’re pulling one everyday; yeah... Rick:Laughs. Congratulations! Amazing. Kira: Yeah! Thank you! And I know, Rick, we’ve worked together in the past, and we’ve talking about bringing you on the show for a while, so now it’s finally happening, and a good place to start is with your story, especially for people who aren’t familiar with you yet. How did you end up running your empire? Rick:Laughs. You use that word; I just laugh at that word. Kira:It’s an awful word! Laughs. Rick:And just for everybody listening, before we got going here, Kira said, ‘Is there anything that you don’t want to talk about,’ and I said, ‘Nah, I’m an open book,’ and the thing of it is, is Kira knows a lotabout me, because we’ve worked together with writing copy. And so I said that, and I’m like, ‘Ooh, wait; Kira knows a lotabout me’, and I’m saying nothing’s off the table here. So yeah. It’s been a very cool journey. I mean, when I think about it, it’s only been really not only four and a half years. It was January of 2015 when the business truly got started. I say ‘truly’ because I left the corporate world in the fall of 2012, and I fumbled around for fifteen months. I was like, ‘Oh yeah, I’m going to be an online entrepreneur,’ and I had no idea really, truly, what that meant. And, so, I left the corporate world, and I had money saved, and thought I was going to, you know, create this amazing business doing Facebook ads, and by the end of 2013, I was quickly running out of money because I really didn’t know how to create my own business, and then, hired a coach, got support, got community, in January of 2014, and that’s when things really started to take off for me and get some structure in the business, really. And, for the past four years, a little over four years now, I’m super, super grateful. I’ve seen hockey-stick growth; we’ve been growing really quickly over the past years, and this year’s looking no different. And, I’m really excited about it. I think the lack of clarity of what I truly wanted to focus on in that first year where, after I left the corporate world, really hurt me. And it was that January of 2014 when I said, in working with a coach at that time, it was, “What am I truly going to—what am I going to sellhere? What am I going to be known for,” if you will. And I had that sort of imposter syndrome at that time. I was like, “Who am I to be teaching Facebook ads? I mean, at the time, I had spent twelve, almost thirteen years in the corporate world of online advertising, but, I was like, “Yeah. Who am I to be teaching Facebook ads, there’s all the other amazing people out there.” And when I kind of got over all and just embraced it, and went for it at that point, that’s when things, you know, really started to get some momentum at that time. Rob:So Rick, you mentioned that when you started your business, you sort of new what you wanted to do but you had no idea about runninga business. Rick:Yeah. Rob:Like, will you talk a little bit about that, because I think that’s something that a lot of copywriters run into in their businesses. Like, we’ve got this technical skill that we have, and we’re pretty good at it, or we think we’re good at it, so, why not do that for a living? But, there’s all this other stuff that we don’t know in order to be successful. Rick:Yeah, exactly. So I had decided about two and a half years before I had actually left the corporate world what I was going to do, and I just said you know what? I wasn’t doing Facebook ads in the corporate world, but I was working with some of the biggest brands in the world on their campaigns, but also I was working with AOL, working for Yahoo, working for Funny or Die. So I was working forsome of the big brands in the world, while I was there working with other huge brands. So obviously, I understood the world of online business, but I wasn’t doing Facebook ads at that point. So, when I was like, “You know what? I want to do something different. I want to create my own schedule,” you know the whole cliché, like: “I want to do my own thing, I want to create my own schedule, I want to serve the people that I want to serve...” I decided, okay, you know at that point, I saw what was going on with Facebook, and because I have that online marketing background, I naturally gravitated towards the advertising side of Facebook, so that’s when I dove in and everything and I started teaching myself and started running Facebook ads, and everything like that. And I was like, “Yeah, I can do this,” but then, when I left the corporate world, it was like, “Holy cow.” You lose the structure; you lose the “security”, which is a falsehood; like, okay. I know I can do this. I know howto do this, meaning Facebook ads; I know the skill, but then, it’s like, how do I get clients? I do I create offers that they want to purchase? All that type of stuff. That’s the stuff that i didn’t have a grasp on. And I’d only known it from the corporate side, and with these big brands and with what they were doing, but then, you know, breaking it down to what I could be doing to create my own business, I was like very lost. And for it was that fifteen months or so, after I’d left where I—like I said, I fumbled around and just really tried to find my way. And I started out with Facebook outs during those fifteen months; then I kind of stepped back, and was like, “Well, maybe I’ll do allof social media; and teach allof social media.” And then, it wasn’t like I mentioned before, until I went sort of back in and focused on Facebook ads, and started to say, “Okay, you know what? This is how I’m going to leverage Facebook ads in order to build my business, and get really focused on what I can offer people and how I can help them. Kira:You mentioned “structure” a couple of times, that you know, the change in January 2014, the coaching and the structure and maybe a couple other ingredients. What did that structure look like early on, and why was that so helpful for you? Rick: First of all, I remember I left the corporate world on a Friday, and I remember getting up on that Monday morning, not knowing what to do with myself! I was like, wait a minute: “I normally go into an office right now, and I don’t have to do that right now!” So I was lost. And, it was the Fall, so we’re getting into the Holiday time at that. So, it didn’t really hit me honestly until January. So it took me a few months honestly for things, because the holidays had died down at that point, and I was kind of getting into the reality of like, “Okay, I need to create structure for myself, in order to build this business,” but again, because I didn’t know what I was doing with building this business, the structure was all over the place. And, I mean, I just sort of dove in, and I started to, you know...when I was working, I would try to structure my day when I’m most fresh.

Our guest for the 87th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast is none other than A-list copywriter Paul Martinez. We covered a lot of ground in this one, including how Paul landed a place as Parris Lampropolous’ copy cub (for seven years) and his process for finding ideas that hook the reader so they’ll see his offers. The resources he shares are excellent. Here’s most of what we cover in this episode: •  how an English degree and a job in real estate helped him find copywriting •  what he did to recover from losing almost everything and how that still impacts how he spends his time today •  what he learned from real estate sales and how that’s made him a better writer •  what he did to find clients as a new copywriter and the #1 thing that reallymade a difference •  how you get yourself in the right room with the right people •  what he learned as a copy cub for one of the world’s best copywriters •  what you can do right now to be a better copywriter (you may not want to do this) •  how he keeps his copywriting skills sharp today •  how Paul finds big ideas playing around on the internet all day long •  how he structures his projects today (and his advice about retainers) •  how he deals with failures That’s a lot of hows and whats—and every one of them is worth the listen. There are also a whole lot of links. To hear this episode in its entirety, click the play button below. Or for a full transcript and links to the stuff Paul mentions, scroll down.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Google Adwords Parris Lampropolous Brian Kurtz Dan Kennedy John Carlton Barnaby Kaelin Alexi Neocleous Jim Rutz Raymond Carver Joe Sugarman Todd Brown Atlas Obscura How We Got to Now At Home by Bill Bryson History of the World in 100 Objects Now I Know More This is Your Brain on Parasites Clayton Makepeace Clayton’s Sales Page Template Agora NatureCity Soundview Weiss Research Mike Ward Money Map Press Jed Canty Paul on Facebook PaulMartinezCopywriting.com Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group Intro: Content (for now) Outro: Gravity   Full Transcript: Rob:What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That’s what Kira and I do every week at The Copywriter Club Podcast. Kira: You’re invited to join the club for episode 87, as we talk with copywriter and business owner Paul Martinez about digging deep to turn things around after losing it all, the importance of sales skills in copywriting, emotional hot buttons and what really makes people buy, and what it takes to create successful promotions for companies like Motley Fool, Soundview, and Nature City. Kira:Welcome Paul. Rob: Hey, Paul. Paul:Hi; hi guys. Kira: How’s it going? Paul: It’s going great; great to be here. Rob:Yeah, we’re stoked to have you here. Kira:So Paul, a great place to start is with how you ended up as a copywriter. Paul:Yeah, sure, sure. So I began my journey actually in the real estate world. Well, going a little further back, my background is actually I went to school for fiction writing and ending up getting an English degree. I pretty quickly realized that, you know, that really wasn’t going to pay the bills. So I ended up in real estate, and actually discovered that I really liked sales. And I was pretty good at it, I studied it a lot. I got better and better but, there was a problem: that I didn’t know how to generate leads. And, you know, this was 2000, 2001. Real estate marketing at that point was, believe it or not, still really based around cold calling. Like, literally going through this thing called a “colds directory”, which was like a phone book, but it has a little diamond next to the people who owned a house. And my broken told me, just like, “Call those people and ask them if they want to sell their house.” And I didn’t that for probably five or six months, chuckles, like hoursa day, and I got nothing from it. And finally one of these other brokers at the office was like, “Hey man, you got to send letters. Way better. You know, you spend a few hundred bucks on stamps; you hired some kid from college to pull them up and stuff the envelopes, and boom.” And he showed me kind of the rough way he did it. And so, I instantly started working; I started listing property, making money. And then I got interested in this, kind of, “How do I make these letters better?” So I started looking into copywriting. I discovered Dan Kennedy and, you know, Jay Abraham, and then ended up going into a real estate coaching program with a guy named Craig Proctor, who’s one of Dan Kennedy’s protégés, and the copy was a huge, huge piece of it. And you know through that, you know, I went through the coaching; I went through their graduating coaching, my real estate business grew and grew and grew as I got better at writing copy, and, you know, better at implementing things. Like I started exploring Google Adwords really as soon as it came out. That was a great, great way to get real estate leads back in 2003, 2004 when they started getting big. But I pretty quickly realized that, you know, I didn’t actually like—laughs—driving around in my car, and like going to listing appointments, and walking through buildings and all this stuff, like all hours of the day, and working, you know, six or seven days a week. So I started getting more into the copywriting thing, and I knew all these really high-level agents, you know, really successful agents and brokers from my coaching programs. And they all got copywriting, they all got marketing. So, I started kind of working, doing some side jobs for them. And I think my first job...you know, this guy wanted me to do some Google Adwords stuff for him, and this was probably like 2005, 2006. And I was like, “Alright. It’s going to take me, like, two or three hours. That’ll be like $1,500.” And he was like, “No problem!” Rob:Wow. Yeah. Paul:Wow....O-o-o-o-okay!! So maybe I could actually do this. So like I was still doing real estate but, you know obviously, 2007 the market started to shift. 2008, 2009, it really...you know, I’m sure everyone remembers that there was a little small recession around then, focused on the real estate industry. So not only did my real estate business collapse, my side business writing for real estate agents collapsed, because suddenly these agents who were making 5, 6, 700,000 dollars a year were making like 50 or 60 grand, and scraping by and couldn’t pay their own bills, so they certainly weren’t going to pay me to write copy. And that’s when I kind of had to make a decision at that point. You know, I had honestly burned out on the real estate game. It’s real high pressure, it’s very, very cutthroat. You do not get paid unless the deal closes. So, you know, if you can go three months working on say, like an investment building sale, and it can fall apart at the last minute over something stupid. And, you know, you thought you were going to make 50 or 60,000 dollars and now you got nothing, you know? Kira:Oh my gosh. Paul:It’s a constant up and down. And I kind of just was like, “You know what? Real estate’s not working. I’m just going to shut down the business. At that point, I couldn’t even sell it because it wasn’t worth anything anymore. It went from being, you know, probably worth one million, one-point-five million, to nothing. Kira: Wow! Paul: Laughs. In about twelve to eighteen months. And during that time, you know, I had also had some personal stuff where I had lost three really good friends in a year. Kira: My gosh! Paul:I had a four-year relationship end suddenly. You know, and it kind of all happened in 2008 and finally I was like, “You know? I need a fresh start. I need to go do something else. I’m just going to hang up my shoes as a freelance copywriter and see what happens.” Because it couldn’t be possibly any worse than real estate right now, and it’s, you know, the only thing that I can think that I really love doing. Rob:I’m trying to put my feet in your shoes, and going through that experience; having all that hit at once, it  must’ve been at some level terrifying to lose all of that stuff. Why did you think that copywriting was the thing to move you forward? Paul:Well I mean, I’d already had some success at it, you know? Like I said, I’d already been getting paid as kind of a side gig to write copy for other real estate agents, and you know you, I’d been studying internet marketing for a while. So I knew people paid copywriters a good amount of money to do their thing. So I was like, “There’s no reason why I can’t do this.” You know? It’s just that I I’ve got to learn another business the same way I learned real estate, I can learn the business of copywriting. So, yeah. I mean I guess, for me, you know, that fear of failing is like...well, so what, right? Laughs. At that point, my entire life had fallen apart. I mean, and when I say fallen apart, I mean I went bankrupt, my condo got foreclosed on. Kira: Oh my gosh. Paul:I was almost homeless. I had lost everything I had worked for, and again, you know, I had a guy who was like a second father to me had passed away. Three days later a really good friend of mine died in a motorcycle accident. A few months had later another mentor of mine pass away from cancer. And then, you know, the woman who I was with four years—and I was actually planning to ask her to marry me—came back from a yoga retreat and dumped me. Kira:Oh my gosh...! Paul: So... Rob:Wow. That must’ve been some yoga retreat. Paul: Yeah, so I was like, I’ve got nothing else to lose, so, let’s see what happens. Kira:Wow. So, let’s see if this question comes out correctly, but,