The Copywriter Club Podcast

Copywriter Rick Marion joins Kira Hug and Rob Marsh for the 86th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. This one gets personal as Rick talks about how he overcame his addictions and how that relates to copywriting. We also talked about... •  how he found copywriting and persuasion though a mentor •  what his first few clients were like (where the work came from) •  how he identifies a mentor to connect (and work) with •  how he finds clients today •  what he’s doing to build the channels where clients can find him •  the two reasons he continually invests in masterminds, books, and events •  the biggest take-aways from his membership in The Think Tank •  his struggle with addiction and how he reframed the way he looked at the world •  what he is experimenting with these days •  what copywriters can do to build their authority •  why he put together a copywriter book group •  what Rick is working on in his business today Rick is a current member of The Copywriter Think Tank and he shares a bit about his experience there. To get this one, visit iTunes, Stitcher or your favorite podcast app. Or click the play button below. For a full transcript, just keep scrolling.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: The Copywriter Think Tank The New York Event: TCCIRL Proposify Better Proposals Ben Settle Jody Mayberry Ray Edwards Brian Kurtz Larry Winget Parris Lampropolous Parris’ book list (coming soon) How to Write a Good Advertisement by Vic Schwab Talent is Overrated by Geoffrey Colvin rickmarion.com Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group Intro: Content (for now) Outro: Gravity   Full Transcript: Kira: What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That’s what Rob and I do every week at The Copywriter Club Podcast. Rob: You’re invited to join the club for episode 86, as we chat we freelance copywriter Rick Marion about his story; dealing with addiction; how he approached copywriting; what he’s learned from the influencers in his life, and the importance of constantly learning and improving as you build your career. Kira: Rick, welcome! Rob: Hey Rick! Rick: Hey; thank you guys! Kira: So Rick, we met you through The Copywriter Think Tank, and we’ve had the privilege of getting to know you overt the past six months or so. So why don’t we start with your story, and how you became a copywriter? Rick: Well, it was comforting; a couple of weeks ago at the New York event, someone asked how many people became copywriters by accident, and like, the whole room pretty much raised their hand. So, that was pretty comforting to know that I also kind of just fell into this. So, full-time job; like, i was working. This was about four years ago, five years ago, and I was working on my master’s degree. i was getting certifications going after my dream job. And I actually got the offer. It was more money than I asked for. Ton of vacation time...it was exactly what I was looking for in like cyber-security. And I had the start date, like, everything was lined up. And then i got a call saying they couldn’t give me the job because of foreign-national contacts that i had. Like... Kira: What? Rick: It was too sensitive. Yeah, it’s the industry. Rob: I want to know about these “foreign-national contacts”! Rick: Laughs. Kira: Yeah! Rob: Like, foreign national...spy? Or drug dealer? Kira: Are you a spy? Rob: Yeah, what’s up? Laughs. Rick: Laughs. No, you know what? It’s just people that travel all over the world and they travel to some countries that, you know, the U.S. doesn’t really want to get involved with. So it was enough to basically say they couldn’t offer me the job, and I was devastated. Kira: Wow. Rick: I mean this was, like I said, like three years i was working towards this. I was working two jobs to get it, like, I was making all the connections. Going through, like, the whole interview process from like falling on my face the first interview I ever had, to like, really learning how to sell myself. And through that process, someone say that I was having a tough time, and they put me in contact with a mentor, and someone who’s now become a friend—his name’s Mark. And, he helped open my eyes to other possibilities outside of just that, like, one track that i had in mind. He made me realize I was kind of living in a bubble, and that there’s a ton more opportunities. And so we started talking, and he kind of introduced me to the whole idea of, like, marketing concepts, and how psychology plays a role, and I was just like falling in love with this because it was right up my alley anyway. So then I started looking into, like, online business, and marketing and realized that, I actually knew something about this because I had marketed myself in the career space, and there are a lot of parallels. And so, come up to close to today, I was connected to a couple people who were already copywriters, and like, I was like, this copywriting thing makes a lot of sense, because you know, you have to be curious, and like I asked probably too many questions. Like, I love learning, you know? And there’s like all these characteristics that just really fit with being a copywriter. And so, it’s kind of like I feel into like this perfect role for my personality, and what I’ve been through, and I was connected to people who were copywriters, so they were able to kind of get me work right away. And, yeah. Here I am. Laughs. Rob: What did those first couple of clients look like, you know? You say you got them from your contacts; what were the projects, and how did that go? Rick: My client was technically the people that I knew in copywriting, right? So I was doing work for them. One of the project was basically an on-boarding and a sales funnel in the real estate investing industry. So, Writing the full sales funnel was about seven or eight emails, and I loved it. It was just throwing me into the fire, like, right into the market research, pulling out like testimonials from different pieces of their content online, and including them and the emails, and on the sale pages... And then i was able to present it to the person that hired me and get the feedback, and that was a huge boost of confidence too, early on, you know, for someone to say, “Yeah, this is good enough to where I would put my name on it.” Like, that mean that world to me. Kira: Yeah. I was going to say, like, what are some of the benefits of writing copy for other copywriters early in your career? Because I do think that’s huge and so important. What else can copywriters get out of that? Rick: Well, the confidence is the big thing, and direct feedback. So, there’s a book called Talent is Overrated. And it talks about how you can really excel with a skill, and a couple of the points that you need to do is you need to push your mind. Like, you need to push yourself mentally in order to improve rapidly. So, getting that feedback and, you know, basically saying like, hey—this isn’t quite getting it over here, it needs to be improved—as crappy as that sounds getting, but that’s what’s needed to really improve, and to get better. And another thing is, the direct feedback—having someone who’s more experienced that can kind of see where your weaknesses are in order to tell you that this is where you need to improve. And, yeah, so it’s the basic skill development, and then coming back around again—I know I’ve said it like two of three times, but—confidence; confidence; confidence. Rob: So if I’m a beginning copywriter, and I’m think, “Okay; I want to do what Rick just did. I want to connect with another copywriter, somebody who can feed me work,” how did you do that? How did you connect with somebody who was willing to give you the time, first of all, and second of all, willing to give you a project? Rick: So, part of it was by chance, because I just happened to be connected with a couple people who were in copywriting. But, strategically, there are things that people can do. So, what I like to do is look at groups or circles or people that you really are attracted to, that you like. It won’t work if you don’t like the person; like don’t try to connect with someone just because, you know, they’re successful. Chuckles. Kira: Laughs. Rick: Right? You have to like them; you have to be attracted to these people for one reason or another. And if they’re at like—let’s just, for lack for a better term—an elite level, then look at who is someone that’s a couple of steps ahead of you, and a few steps below the elite level, and that’s kind of who I look at for who I can connect with and who would be willing to work with me, you know? Because I think it’s tough to, you know, someone who’s brand new asking someone like Ben Settle or whatever to feed them work, you know? It happens, but it’s not as likely. So I think looking at someone a couple steps ahead of you that you respect, and, really just starting to build a relationship with them. You know, you can pitch them, right off the bat, but you can also build a relationship, and you know, try to offer value; try to support them in what they’re doing. And that’ll show that, “Hey, this person actually thinks of things outside of just themself. Like they think about other people,” and it’s really attractive when you’re talking about working with someone else. Kira: So Rick, how have you found clients, beyond the first few, you know, through close friendships? How have you found other clients so that you can grow your business, because most new copywriters really struggle to find those clients early on. Rick: Yeah. And I’m no different. So, referrals—all of my clients have been through referrals. And so that’s really good,

Health and Fitness copywriter, Misty Mozejko joins Kira and Rob for the 85th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. We asked her all kinds of questions about her fitness and copywriting business—and got a lot of great advice to apply to our own businesses. We even talked about nipple tassels, which is new ground for us (though not for Misty). Here’s what else we talked about: •  how she got started running her own businesses and how that led to copywriting •  how she found a mentor and why she continues to look for them •  what she did to lose 120 pounds (and how long it took) •  the business lessons she learned running her own fitness club •  her diet recommendations for copywriters who need to feed their brains •  the system she has developed in her business to help her succeed •  the moment she realized she was good at copywriting •  what she’s done to improve her own writing (this is a great tip) •  her advice on how to choose clients •  why she emails her list every day (and the impact it has) •  where the ideas for her emails come from •  how she captures the voice of her clients •  how she manages two businesses, being a mom, and staying healthy •  the mistakes she’s made (and why she tries to stay in her lane) •  what she’s learned about hiring people to help her •  how she communicates with her team (and the tool she uses) •  what she does to improve her writing and business skills •  the words she uses to push back on her clients Finally, Misty pulled out her crystal ball to tell us where she sees copywriting going in the future. She’s probably not wrong. To hear it all, click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Sponsor: The Copywriter Think Tank Brian Kurtz Paul Mort Ben Settle Email Players James Friel Autopilot Entrepreneur Evernote Trello Basecamp Bond Halbert Russell Brunson Sell Health Nipple Tassels The Go Giver Misty’s Facebook Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group Intro: Content (for now) Outro: Gravity Full Transcript: Rob: What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That’s what Kira and I do every week at The Copywriter Club Podcast. Kira: You’re invited to join the club for episode 85 as we talk with copywriter and business owner Misty Mozejko about succeeding as a copywriter while running a whole other business; how she stays sane balancing two businesses while being a mom; her best fitness and nutrition advice; and what she does to stand out as a copywriter in a crowded field. Rob: Hey Misty. Kira: Welcome, Misty. Misty: Well, thank you very much for having me; this is an honor! Kira: It’s great to have you hear. I think a great place to start is with your story, and how you ended up running multiple businesses. Misty: Uhhhm, yeah; you said ‘sane’? You mentioned something about my sanity in the intro, and I think we should address that, because there’s definitely none of that happened in the past. I’m not sane at all, so let’s just clear that up right now. But yeah, I think that, you know, I started out as an entrepreneur just after my son was born and he’s almost twelve, so it’s been over a decade now doing my own thing. And the fitness business arose because of my own personal... Well, I lost 120 pounds after my son was born, and I figured if I could do it, then everyone could do it; like seriously, everyone can do it. So, I grew a fitness business from that, and the copywriting kind of came out of the fitness business, because I was writing to my clients, and writing to my list everyday, unbeknownst to me what even copywriting was or even email marketing was. I had no idea. I was just doing it. And then, after a few years of thinking, “Huh, I should probably make some money off of this,” I got a mentor and they kind of helped me really get into email marketing. The fitness business came first, and then the copywriting and email marketing came second mainly because I needed it as a tool for my business, and then that little seed kind of grew and blossomed, and here I am today. So, that’s the nuts and bolts of it, really. Rob: So let’s talk about how you found your mentor—I think we know who it was, or at least one of your mentors. But, how did you find that person, and what did that mentorship look like? Misty: So, yeah. I’ve always had coached from day one; I quickly realized in business you’re not going to get very far on your own. And so I definitely try to surround myself with people who can expand my horizons, and teach me new things, and if I can learn from different people, then that’s really key, which is why obviously I’m in with Bryan and learning from him now. So, that’s always been crucial. So, the mentorship with the email marketing started way back in the day with a guy in England called Paul Mort. And then it kind of went on from there. I ended up with the notorious Ben Settle a couple of years ago, and I worked with him, firstly as his podcast announcer, and then secondly as a writer for his podcast list. So working with Ben was terrifying, actually. Kira: Laughs. Misty: And also, quite wonderful. So, a little bit of both, you know? You never know what you’re going to get. It taught me a lot; it really did teach me a lot. A lot about online marketing, email marketing, a world that I wasn’t really in. When I have a brick and mortar business, you don’t really get into that. So, he definitely did open my eyes to this world now, which is fantastic. Kira: Yeah, I remember hearing your name from Ben’s show a couple of years ago, i guess now, and just wondering like, “Who is this Misty person? Like, what’s her story?” So it comes full circle! So how did you end up becoming his announcer, and working with him? Misty: Well, you know, I’m an “email player”. I was on his subscription list, and so with this little group—we’ve gone through quite a few groups, but the group back then, he put out an email and maybe a message in the group saying he was looking for a podcast announcer, and I just figured, you know like, I had tons of experience talking everyday, so that put me in good stead to be a podcast announcer, so i just said, “Yeah, I’m going to do this.” And so I emailed in my application; just said, “Yep. I’m pretty good at speaking, so let’s do this.” And I put on my best British accent, and I really ramped it up for the mic. And, it went from there. So I was a podcast announcer. I’ve also got quite a big mouth, and some wordy fingers, and so I think he saw some of the writing I was doing inside of the group, and then invited me to write for him as well. So, I just kind of walked my way into the podcast announcership position, and it all went from there. Rob: Okay, so I want to go back a little bit to the fitness business, and talk a little bit about some of things that you learned. You said that you had lost some weight on your own, and I’m curious—first of all, what that was like, and then second of all, what it’s like teaching that to other people? Misty: I think losing weight is really hard. Like it’s one of the hardest things, you know, you’ll ever do because food’s everywhere; temptation’s everywhere, you know. I was like over 300 pounds, and to be honest, like I didn’t even really think I was eating that bad! Like I grew up with a terrible diet, you know? Just, drinking and all things that you shouldn’t do. And, you know, I just didn’t think it was that bad until I actually went and got an education on nutrition and became a nutritionist and that’s when, you know, I had my eyes opened to me. But losing weight was hard; it took me two-and-a-half years to lost a hundred and twenty pounds, and it’s a longer battle than most really want it to me and that’s, when it comes to teaching others, I think, that’s the hardest lesson, is to teach them that it takes a long time, and the older you get, the harder it is! And so, if you’ve ever suffered from obesity or battled weight, it’s a longer process than most want, and pretty much no one wants to hear that. So that’s a hard sell, but I try to do it anyway. Kira: I’m curious. What’s a lesson or maybe two lessons you’ve taken from your experience growing that fitness business, and what does that business look like today? Misty: Everyone will tell you their niche is the hardest niche to work in. “It’s such a hard niche to work in; it’s so overcrowded,” and every niche is the same. But the fitness industry really is a changing landscape and it changes all the time. And it’s tricky, right, to keep up because the 99% of the fitness industry is complete bull, and there’s 1% who’s actually trying to do a good job. And so, trying to face down Goliath every single day is, you know, it’s tiring. So, I think the one thing that I’ve learned it, especially in the fitness industry is, you have to be very careful with what you sell. You have to sell what people want, and you can’t sell what people need, which is very, very tricky in the health industry, because they’re two very, very different things. People want flat abs, but you really want them to be healthy, and those two often don’t really meet, at all! So there’s building your audience and knowing what they want is very, very important, and also I think, especially if you’re looking at a business that has team members where you’ve got employees or subcontractors, if you’d got a brick and mortar location that’s, you know, more than likely, and understanding that people come and go, and that employees and subcontractors just won’t last forever, and that you have to have systems on board to make sure that as people circle in and out of you business, your business isn’t affected by individuals that come and go.

Copywriter, author and copy coach Steve Roller stops by our studio for the 84th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. Steve is the founder of The Copywriter Cafe Facebook group—a group that a lot of club members are also in. We asked Steve to share his thoughts about his book, the field of copywriting and a whole lot more. Here’s what this episode covers: •  how a 17-year career in sales (and an online course) led to his second life as a copywriter •  how he connected with his first client (it involved pancakes) •  the advice he gives copywriters who are struggling to gain traction •  the advantage copywriters with a sales background have over other writers •  what it takes to foster engagement in a Facebook community •  the importance of relationships for all (but especially new) copywriters •  the books he recommends to copywriters who are just starting out •  the skills you need to be good at on client calls •  why every copywriter needs to write their own book •  how writing a book has affected his business •  the dark side of freelancing (spoiler: you won’t make millions working at the beach) •  the lighter side of freelancing—it’s definitely not all bad •  what Steve sees happening with copywriting in the future This was a great conversation with someone who is doing a lot to support other copywriters and help them succeed. It’s no wonder we feel such a kinship with Steve. You can get this interview on iTunes, Stitcher or by scrolling down to click the play button. Or you can read the transcript if you scroll down the page a bit.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: The Copywriter Café Never Eat Alone by Keith Ferazzi How to Win Friends and Influence People by Dale Carnegie The Freelancer Manifesto by Steve Roller Death of a Salesman by Arthur Miller Cafewriter.com Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group Intro: Content (for now) Outro: Gravity   Full Transcript: This podcast is brought to you by The Copywriter Think Tank, our mastermind group for writers who are serious about taking their businesses to the next level. In the Think Tank, you’ll learn from guest experts who share their business and copywriting expertise; you’ll have the opportunity to sit in the hot seat while the other members of the group brainstorm solutions to the challenges you’re facing; and, you’ll have exclusive access to a small, focus group of professional copywriters who are all working together to get better at what we do. It’s not cheap, but it’s worth the investment. If you’re interested in learning more, visit www.copywriterthinktank.com. Kira: What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That’s what Rob and I do every week at The Copywriter Club Podcast. Rob: You’re invited to join the club for episode 84 as we chat with freelance copywriter, author, and community leader Steve Roller about the dark side of freelancing; the skills you need to make it as a consulting copywriter; why you must ride a book; and the impact a great community can have on your career. Kira: Welcome, Steve! Rob: Yeah, welcome Steve! Steve: Hey! Thank you very much for having me; I’m honored to be here, and excited to talk to you today and share some ideas with your readers. With your readers...I’m thinking ‘book’ already! With your lis— Kira: They’re going to be readers! Steve: Laughs Rob: Readers, listeners, yeah. Steve: With your listeners! No, I’m excited to be here. Thanks for having me. Rob: We’re really grateful that you are taking the time to talk to us. You’ve been on our list for a little while. We’ve sort of watched what you’ve done in your community and with your book and so, we’re just really excited to just kick off this conversation. Steve: Excellent, excellent. Thank you. Kira: So Steve, let’s start with your story. How did you end up as a copywriter? Steve: Yeah, so before I ever heard about copywriting, I was in sales. So, my career coming out of college and for seventeen years, actually before I did this, was in direct sales. So I worked for a couple of different publishing companies. And, I loved it. I loved the whole sales world, I loved the autonomy of working for a company but kind of being on my own. I was pretty good at it so I made good money. I went on some nice trips and got recognition and all that kind of stuff. But the only drawback for me was that I only got like three to four weeks of vacation every year, and I really like traveling and taking extended vacations and what I call Sabbaticals. That wasn’t enough for my tastes, so, I was looking for something to do to get out on my own, and this was like back at the end of the 90’s. And this goes back a few years, so back at the end of the 90’s, you know, when everyone was getting into dot-com businesses and stuff; I was really intrigued by that whole world but didn’t know what to make of it, and it wasn’t until about five years later, 2004, I was just surfing the internet and I came across an ad online for a copywriting course, a really great copywriting course, and it just really intrigued me. I had never heard the word; I had never heard of the concept, even though I was in sales and knew a little bit about marketing, I just never heard about copywriting, so I bought the course. I dove into it you know, I just—I really just fell in love with the whole concept of copywriting, and decided that someway, somehow, that was what I was going to do. Well, it took about four or five years before I was able to really make the transition into full-time copywriting. But anyways, that’s kind of how I got my start. So I found out about it online and took a course, and kind of did it on my own for two years and actually really didn’t do much for a few years. Chuckled; I took courses; I soaked it up; I read books, but I didn’t really have any clients for a few years actually. Rob: So how did you find those first few clients that came along? What were you doing to reach out and connect with them? Steve: Well, I really wasn’t doing anything but, I went to a conference. I went to a copywriting conference, and that’s when I decided, “Okay, I’m going to make a go at this.” I was still working a full-time job, and when I got back, about a week later, an old friend of mine from college invited me to breakfast. He was in town, and he said, “Hey, let’s go to breakfast,” and we caught up with things and he asked me what I was doing, and this was the first time I ever said, verbally, “I’m a copywriter.” I had never uttered those words before, and I really didn’t feel like a copywriter yet because I didn’t have any clients, but I told him I was a copywriter. And he said, “Oh, that’s interesting, because we just fired our copywriter.” Happens to be that he was the president and founder of a sales training company located in Madison, Wisconsin where I lived, and so he said, “Hey, why don’t you come to our weekly meeting next week, and just, we can talk, you know?” So I thought we were just going to have a casual chat; well I showed up at their weekly meeting, and I was the featured guest that day. And uh...laughs...I was a little unprepared. But he said, “Hey!” He introduced me to his whole team of ten people, and he said, “Hey, Steve is going to give us some copywriting and marketing ideas. So Steve, take it away!” Laughs. Rob: Surprise! I like it. Steve: So that was my baptism by fire into copywriting! So I kind of winged it; I knew enough from reading books and having gone to this conference. I knew enough that I could kind of talk my way through it. And then, I proceeded for the next six months do some work for them, so they were my first client. And I didn’t have a website, didn’t have a business, and didn’t really know what I was doing but, he gave me a chance, and I delivered, and from there I really just talked to a lot of local clients. I didn’t have a website for about a year; I didn’t know anything about how to market myself, but I just told people that I knew that I was a copywriter, so, another buddy of mine who was the president of an insurance company, another guy who was a personal trainer, another guy who owned a coffee shop, so you know...my clients were just this random assortment of people, but it was all people who I knew, and who knew me, and they trusted me, even though I had no credentials. Laughs. Kira: What advice, Steve, do you give to new copywriters, like yourself back then, who are really struggling to get those first few clients to gain that traction early on? What would you tell them? Steve: You know, I do tell people all the time to talk to people that you know. I mean, everybody has problems. I think the tendency is to gravitate—and there’s nothing wrong with this—the tendency is to gravitate toward big companies and the big publishing, the big Agora-type companies that everybody would love to land as a client, but as a beginner, the chances of landing those kind of clients are slim, but, I always tell people, there’s business everywhere, you know, in our own backyard, and I think we overlook that sometimes, but talk to people you know. Talk to people in your local community. Talk to people who have businesses. And, everybody has problems. They may not even know what copywriters are, or what copywriters do, or they may never have hired copywriters, but every business has problems. So I tell new people to focus less on their copywriting aspect of it, and just focus on, “Hey, what problems do you have as a business? Do you have problems... Would you like to bring more leads or keep more clients that you have? You know, how’s your advertising going?” You know, and talk in terms that people understand,

In the direct response world everyone knows the name, Gary Halbert. He’s often called the best copywriter who ever lived. And if we could, we’d ask Gary to be on the show, but alas, that’s not possible, so we’ve done the next best thing. Bond Halbert is the guest for episode 83 of The Copywriter Club Podcast. Kira and Rob sat down with Bond to talk about his famous dad and the lessons he’s learned from a lifetime (literally) learning copy. We talked about: •  his path into the world of copywriting (it all starts with his dad) •  the story behind The Boron Letters and why Gary wrote them to Bond •  why Gary Halbert went to prison for a crime he didn’t commit (really) •  the 2-3 most important lessons he learned from Gary Halbert •  how he divides his work into thirds •  the four kinds of readers you’ll attract to your copy •  why copywriters are good at headlines but bad at closes •  what he does to nail the close •  the importance being persuasive in person (not just in copy) •  where good copy really comes from •  what Bond’s research process involves •  his hack for finding the problems your customers want to solve •  why expertise is relative (the differing levels of expertise) •  the formula he leans toward when he writes for his clients •  why you need to create a compelling sense of urgency in every sales message (and how to do it) •  why he wrote Part III of The Halbert Copywriting Method first •  how he talks differently about positive and negative ideas in his copy (we hadn’t heard this anywhere else before) •  how (and why) Bond’s relationship with money is different from his father’s This interview was so good that it went a little long, but we think you'll learn a lot from the extra time we spent talking about copywriting. To get this one, visit iTunes, Stitcher or your favorite podcast app. Or simply click the play button below. And of course, you can scroll down for a full transcript.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: The Boron Letters Parris Lampropolous How to Make Maximum Money in Minimal Time Glenn Gary Glen Ross Big Jason Henderson Sam Markowitz The Halbert Copywriting Writing Method, Part III BondHalbert.com TheGaryHalbertLetter.com Halbertising.com Email: bond@thegaryhalbertletter.com Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group Intro: Content (for now) Outro: Gravity   Full Transcript: Rob: What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That’s what Kira and I do every week at The Copywriter Club Podcast. Kira: You’re invited to join the club for episode 83 as we talk with copywriter and marketer Bond Halbert about the most important lessons he learned from his father, the man many called the greatest copywriter ever lived; the story behind The Boron Letters; the formulas, tactics, and strategies he uses to make effective copy; and what he’s doing to carry on Gary’s legacy. Rob: Hey Bond! Kira: Welcome, Bond! Bond: Hi! Thank you for having me here! Rob: Yeah we’re thrilled to have you; when we made a list of all of the guests that we wanted to interview eventually on the podcast, your name was one of the first ones that we added, and so it’s taken us a little while to get to you, but we are glad that you’re finally here. Bond: Oh! I didn’t know that, I would have come sooner! Laughs. Kira: Laughs. This is perfect; perfect timing. Episode 83 is a good episode. So Bond, let’s start with your story, especially for people who are less familiar with you, you know; how—how did you get into this wonderful world of copywriting and marketing? Bond: I’m going to try to make this really short, because I know I’ve given this to people who’ve heard me on other podcasts, and I like to give people as much, like, new stuff as I can, and tactical advice. Basically, my dad quit his last—got fired from his job—the day before I was born. And, he started getting into the world of copywriting and direct marketing on, basically, the day I was born. So, I grew up in the business, but, one day what happened was, I was talking to him—we were walking down the street—and my dad had this kind of rocky up-and-down relationship with money. And so, a lot of people don’t know it, but, you know, his ability to make money was only really eclipsed by his ability to blow it. And he didn’t do this on purpose—it took me many years to figure out that he was addicted to like, needing to have a big win, then making a big win. Laughs. And so, one time he was needing a big win, and I turned to him and said, “You know, I’m really lucky.” He said, “Why?” And I said, “My oldest brother got to grow up with, you know, all the toys and pleasures of being a rich kid. I get to see how to make it,” and he thought that was really, really smart thing for a ten-year-old to say. So, he singled me out and started, you know, because after... he started, you know, making money in copywriting. He made big wins, by breaking the rules and doing things the way he wanted; he decided he was going to parent that way too. So what he decided that what he was going to do is teach me from an early age; he wasn’t going to put me through the standard ‘go to high school; go to college’ blah blah blah blah. He started mentoring me right away, and he started taking me, you know, I was flying all over the country and internationally a little bit, on business trips so that I could learn what he was doing. He would explain what he was going to do; I would be in the meetings and hanging out with them, and then he would explain what happened in the meeting you know, afterwards—we called it, it was like from the military, we called it an “after action”, so, I started getting this incredibly early education. Even before that, I was stuffing, stamping, and sealing envelopes for test mailing as long as I can remember. I mean, as a little kid. Laughs. Rob: Yeah. Bond: So I’ve just been in direct response for ages, and that, that’s how I got into it. I know most people have a, you know, “I was sleeping in my car” story that everybody really appreciates—laughs. I...I just, you know. I was born into it, I will admit it. But I did earn everything that I know, you know? And a lot of times, what I would do it I would do a podcast or an interview and people would like, you know, do you mine talking about my dad, and I was like, “Sure, I love my dad; I’ll talk about him all day long, and if that’s all you want to talk about, I will.” But I little while into it, they’d realize it, you know, I did a lot of stuff on my own, and then eventually, my podcast, at the end, they stopped asking about my dad completely, and then recently we’ve been doing a lot more stuff to bring my dad’s, you know, highlight stuff. So, like, we’re going to be having a memorial seminar for his 80th birthday in June coming up. And, we do a lot of things to make sure that he’s not only in the spotlight still, which we don’t really have to do because as Parris Lampropoulos once said, “In the world of copy, all roads lead to Gary Halbert.” But, you know, to make sure that everybody knows that we don’t, we---everything. You know, my dad used to say this to me, and I give him credit  and I say it’s true. He says, you know, “Every single thing that you do well, I get credit for because I taught you how to think. Everything you don’t do well, well, that’s your mom or somebody else.” Laughs. Rob: I like that; I like that, yeah. Kira: Laughs.    Rob: So Bond, the first time I think that I came across your name, I was reading The Boron Letters, which were letters that your dad wrote to you when he was spending some time in jail. I’m curious; you know, I think you were still really young when that happened, right? When you got those letters, was this stuff that resonated with you immediately, or did you sort of set them aside for a while, you know, until you were maybe mature enough to actually try out the things that Gary was telling you to do? Tell us the story behind that and, you know, how that all came about. Bond: Well, I was fifteen—I turned sixteen while I was in there. So he was sending me the letters, but he was kind of more or less letting-getting his ideas down on paper and his thoughts and his lessons. You know, there were people who were friends of us that he would teach some stuff, but he didn’t really stop and like start mentoring, until me. And I’m not saying I’m his best mentee or anything like that. But what I am saying is, since I am the first, I saw these—all these lessons that he gave and training of all these copywriters that he’s famous for training. I was not only the first one, but I saw the lessons evolve over time, and stuff like this. So this was the very beginning of that. In fact, the Boron Letters is kind of like the outline for what turned out to be his newsletter. And then he took several of his key issues in his newsletter, and put them together in a book to produce his newsletter. The book was How to Make Maximum Money in Minimal Time, which will be available; again, CreateSpace, you know, stopped letting us use them unless they get a 70% commission, and we’re going to have that back up and ready to offer in about a week. But, in any case, that book promoted his newsletter, so this kind of started this whole thing: it was the Boron Letters. And for me, a lot of the lessons I was already getting for a long time but he was kind of rehashing stuff, but he was going into more detail. So it wasn’t as revolutionary to me when I received them. But what happened later, was I started to get a greater and greater appreciation. You know, when you’re older and you start to have kids you start to understand things about your parents that you get now, because you’re a parent,

Copywriter Eman Zabi joined Kira and Rob for the 82nd episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast and we had a great conversation. She became a copywriter a little over a year ago, but in that time has accomplished more than many writers with several years of experience. We talked about her experience in The Copywriter Accelerator and Think Tank and what she’s done to grow her business to the point where she’s working with major outdoor consumer brands. Here are a few of the topics we covered: •  how she went from star engineering student to copywriter (with a stop at the UN along the way) •  what the early days of starting her own business •  what she’s learned from the copywriters she’s surrounded herself with •  what she’s done to stand out online (her SEO secrets) •  why she cut the number of projects she will work in half •  how she’s raised her prices and didn’t worry about “paying her dues” •  how she goes after the clients that she wants to work with •  what you have to know to write in the outdoor industry •  why she threw away her entire list (every single name) and started over •  her thoughts about creating a signature service •  how she deals with clients who think she’s too young •  why she adopted a penguin, two tigers, a great white shark and a llama last year •  how she built a beautiful website for just $47 (and some tears and caffeine) •  why she moved half way around the globe last year •  climbing Kilimanjaro and what she learned from the experience •  how branding can make a big difference for copywriters We also talked with Eman about her best advice to copywriters who are just starting out. And what she shared sounded good to us. To hear the whole discussion, simply click the play button below, or scroll down to read the full transcript.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Mount Kilimanjaro Ban Ki-moon The Copywriter Accelerator The Copywriter Think Tank Lessons from Kilimanjaro Wix MooseJaw Sean D’Souza Hillary Weiss Laura Belgray Eman’s Twitter The Outdoor Copywriter Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group Intro: Content (for now) Outro: Gravity   Full Transcript: Kira: What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That’s what Rob and I do every week at The Copywriter Club Podcast. Rob: You’re invited to join the club for episode 82 as we chat with freelance copywriter Eman Zabi, about how she got into copywriting, dealing with clients who think she’s too young, choosing her niche to rebranding to reach her ideal clients, and what it’s like to stand on top of Mt. Kilimanjaro. Kira: Welcome, Eman! Rob: Hey, Eman. Eman: Hey, thank you! Kira: Great to have you here! So, we’ve been able to get to know you—we’ve had the privilege of getting to know you—over the past, well almost year, through the Accelerator Program, and then now through The Copywriter Think Tank. So we’re excited to kind of dig into your past, and your copywriting, and your business a bit more. A good place to start is with your story. So, how did you end up in copywriting? Eman: So that’s a funny story, actually. I kind of started off as like every brown parent’s dream, because as a kid, I was like making websites at eight; I was building radios and Morse Code oscillators; and I was going to be an engineer, and I was going to be a great engineer. And then like I started writing, and then I got something published by Bloomsbury at eleven, and then I ended up at the U.N. at fifteen, and then I’m like, “Oh my goodness. I don’t want to be an engineer anymore.” And my parents were devastated. And then I went into politics, and you can’t get a job in politics. I was unemployed; there was no way I was going to get a job with a degree in international politics. And, the market’s really bad so I couldn’t get a job, and I started blogging about Kilimanjaro, and then people were like, “Hey, you’re a half-decent writer; maybe you should write and get paid for it.” And Priscilla from The Copywriter Club actually—she’s in the group, and she sent me a link to the podcast. She’s like, “This might interest you.” Kira: Oh! Eman: And that’s basically how I got started. I like binge-listened to like twenty episodes in less than a week, and I’m like, “Okay, that’s it. I’m going to be a copywriter.” So, being here’s kind of a full circle for me. Rob: I did not know that. Kira: I didn’t know that either!! Yeah! Rob: Yeah. This kind of feels like a proud parent moment in a way. Eman: Laughs. Kira: Laughs. Group hug! Rob:  Yeah, it’s totally cool! So tell us the kind of writing that you’re doing right now. Eman: At the moment I’m primarily working with people in the outdoor industry, which is so great for me, because I live and breathe it. So a lot of the clients that I’m working with right now, they’re women who are trying to make the outdoor industry more inclusive, and it’s just such an important thing to me, and it’s such a personal cause to me. And also with businesses who are trying to do more than just make a profit. And yeah. Kira: So I want to back up to, you said—you kind of skimmed over—you were published at fifteen, and then you ended up at the U.N. So like, what was that craziness that happened, and how did you get to the U.N. at age fifteen? Eman: I was doing a lot of debate in the local circuits. I was like national champion, and then I got into like the M.U.N. circuit—Model of United Nations circuit—and then, I got picked to go to the United Nations and present a paper that I wrote about sustainable forest management, and yeah. I got a little award from Ban Ki-moon, which is pretty great. So I peaked at fifteen, basically. Kira: Laughs. Rob: Yeah, not—not at all. Eman: Laughs. Rob: And then you went and you studied politics at university? Eman: Yes, yeah. Rob: Cool. So I’m still trying to like, get my head around the fact that you’re a copywriter because you listened to our podcast like, you know, I’m sitting here smiling, but... Eman: Laughs. Kira: You made Rob’s day! Rob: You have, you totally made my day. But, let’s talk about some of the things that you learned as you were listening to the podcast. What was it that you were listening to that made you think, “Hey yeah, I can do this, I want to do this”? Eman: So one of the things that I’ve always felt about writing is that it’s not just about sounding pretty and flowery, but it needs to be intentional. It’s needs to do something to the people that are reading it, and I really heard that when I listened to the people on the podcast. They were talking about it being really intentional, and crafting it with psychology, and that just blew my mind. I’m like, “This is kind of what I was grasping at my whole life,” and I felt like it was kind of my “ah-ha” moment, like, this is what I was supposed to be doing instead of like, graphing about trying politics and engineering and biology and like, everything else. This is what I felt like I was supposed to be doing. And I got that from your podcast. Rob: That’s so awesome. Eman: And no, they’re no paying me to say this. Kira: Laughs. Yes we are, yes we are. We will pay you. Rob: No, we’re not! Laughs. Eman: Laughs. Kira: So when did you listen to the podcast? Was this a year ago? Eman: So this was January last year...January, I’ve only been in business for a year now. Kira: Okay, so can we just talk about that? You’ve been in business for only a year. You’ve done really well, we’ve been able to see your growth. Can you just kind of share the highlight reel, like the growth over the last year? What surprised you the most over the last year? Eman: So I got my first client within a couple of days, but it was the craziest client on the planet and, ugh. Let’s not get into that. But, I made about $200 my first month, and I thought that was a huge deal, and once I started digging into the podcast and the Facebook group, I learned that there is so much potential to grow from this, and I just kind of went with it. And I was still not really taking it super seriously, but it wasn’t until like I did the Accelerator. Like, that was my, “Okay, I’m going to really buckle down and take this seriously” moment. And the Accelerator just changed everything for me. I’m in the Think Tank now and that made a huge difference as well, so it was really just going from low-budget clients who kind of like threw things at me at weird hours and expected me to be at their beck and call, to better clients who treated me like an equal, and that was really like the big transition for me. Rob: So this is something that we’ve talked about quite a bit on the podcast; also, you know, in the Accelerator, the Think Tank, but you are unlike a lot of copywriters just starting out who just try to kind of figure it out all on their own and they spend a lot of time I think, spinning their wheels instead of really investing in the learning and figuring it all out. Why did you jump onto the Accelerator, and try to figure it out so quickly? What’s different about you that so many other people seem to struggle with? Eman: So, there’s really not substitute for learning from people who’ve done exactly what you want to be doing, and learning from your peers who are ten steps ahead of you, and from you guys who, like, made it, you know? So like, for me, it was just paying to be in a room full of people who know exactly what they’re doing, and picking their brain at every opportunity, and being the sponge in the room, and sucking up all of their like brain juices....if that’s a word... Kira: Laughs. Rob: Or two words, sure. Eman: Or two words! That’s a thing.

For the 81st episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, Kira and Rob talk with copywriter and marketing specialist, Mike Saul, about copywriting, sales, marketing, and a lot more. Kira first met Mike at a lunch-time gathering of copywriters in New York City and after talking for a little while, realized Mike had a lot of great advice to share with our listeners. In this podcast we talked about: •  how a 13-year-old’s newspaper route led to a career in sales and copywriting •  the book that he used to help a client go from a $500K monthly loss in $1 million in monthly revenue •  how his sales experience informs what he does today •  what he learned from selling burglar alarms—price is not the most important thing •  the relationship between sales and marketing in what copywriters do •  how to write an “air tight” argument for your solution •  how to overcome objections on your sales page •  the checklist he uses when he writes sales pages for his clients •  why sales people in California have to leave the house after •  the list of people he has learned sales and copywriting skills from •  credibility versus believability and which one really matters Lots of good stuff in this episode. To hear it all, click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Staton Island Advance Mandolin Brothers NAM Show Todd Brown The Ultimate Sales Letter by Dan Kennedy Brian Tracy Zig Ziglar Gibson SG Fender Telecaster Glen Garry Glen Ross Chris Haddad Clayton Makepeace’s Checklist Joe Schriefer Bob Bly John Carlton Dr. Robert LaPenna Better Call Saul Email: tinymjs.gmail.com Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group Intro: Content (for now) Outro: Gravity   Full Transcript: Rob: What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That’s what Kira and I do every week at The Copywriter Club Podcast. Kira: You’re invited to join the club for episode 81 as we talk with marketing strategist and copywriter Mike Saul about how a newspaper route launched his copywriting career, how preconceived notions affect your success, credibility vs. believability, what baby bottles, Santa Clause, and getting a first date have in common, and the learning resources he likes most. Kira: Hey Mike, welcome to the show! Rob: Mike, we’re glad to have you! Mike: Thank you for having me, guys. Kira: So, we want to start with your story, Mike. How did you end up in marketing and direct response copywriting? Mike: It probably goes back to when I was 12 or 13 years old. I grew up on Staten Island, which is one of the five boroughs of New York City, so about 13 I started playing guitar. And my parents decided that they weren’t going to buy me a really nice guitar so I had to get a job at thirteen and we perish the thought these days, with all these entitled children, including my three. So anyway, I started delivering the newspaper, The Staten Island Advance. And I actually split a route with two brothers. The two brothers each had a route each but they were too big, so the mother split each of their routes and made a third route. It was kind a rent deed route, it wasn’t officially recognized by the Staten Island Advance. So that route got cycled through the neighborhood kids; most of the kids couldn’t do it so I said alright, I’m going to give it a shot. I had twenty one stops on my route. And I started delivering the paper and anybody I wasn’t delivering to on my route, I would knock on the door, ask if they wanted it, and I started selling. So, I built the route up to 41 people from 21. Now, why 41? Because I was warned by my friend’s mom, that, if you add one more house, we’re going to split the route again, so I said okay, well, that’s great... really good for getting rewarded for all my efforts, right? And at that point, I really knew what bureaucracy was all about so that’s how I got started in selling. I was just knocking on doors and trying to sell the Staten Island Advance on delivery. From there, I went to a high end guitar shop, which close about a year ago, year and a half ago, when the founder actually passed away and I was selling high end guitars on Staten Island at a place called Mandolin Brothers when I was 14 and 15 years old. And when the owner and the head sales guy would go to the NAM show, in California, I was actually running the showroom by myself. So, that’s how I got my chops in sales. Now, how does that move into marketing? Well, a lot of times you’ll hear people say, okay, you know, copywriting is salesmanship in print. Now, I don’t agree with that. I take Todd Brown’s approach, which is “copywriting is really marketing in print”. So anyway, fast forward a while, I had some sales jobs, I sold alarm systems, I sold mausoleums, people were just dying to get in, I liked to say; I sold life-alert, the “I’ve fallen and I can’t get up” guys, which was in-home sales, which is just amazing. Talk about immersing yourself in the training and then actually having to sit and talk to somebody for two hours at a time and compel them to move forward by showing them the benefits and everything. And then from there, I started working online. So that came about 1999. You know, there were other stories. When I started selling alarms for ADT I went in there and they didn’t know what to do with me because everybody was just sitting around waiting for the phone to ring and I was doing my own marketing at that time and I had no idea what I was doing, but I was knocking on doors, I was sending out letters to new businesses that were opening, I was a commercial sales rep, I was going through existing customers and asking them if they wanted burglar alarms in their home; I had no idea what I was doing. So then fastforward to the online world, I started out with a financial advisory service. Not a licensed one, so for lack of a better one, a stock-pick service. That’s the best way to put it. And the guy I was working for, he was very aggressive with his marketing; he had turned a little bit of money into a lot a bit of money, so he was telling everybody how he could do it. He decided you know what? I want to do an infomercial. He wound up spending a ton of money on an infomercial and was getting destroyed. He was on a pace to be completely destroyed - to lost millions of dollars. So, we sat down one day, he asked me if I could help. “You did sales for a long time, could you help?” and I said okay, you know, sure. And I sat down and I got The Ultimate Sales Letter by Dan Kennedy who was my first copywriting mentor, I guess we could call it, with that book, and I read through it and I said geez, a lot of this looks familiar in the ways I learn how to sell. People like Bryan Tracy and Zig Zigler, those are the people I learned how to sell from. And I sat down with the infomercial script and we rewrote it. I wasn’t a great writer, I’m still not a great writer by any means. We rewrote it, I put in the pieces of persuasion that I feel would help, and we turned it around. We went from losing about $500,000 a month to eventually doing over a million dollars a month. And it wasn’t all profit, of course, there was a big media spend in there and a lot of that money came on the back-end. So I was not a partner in that business, which was stupid of me, I had an option of being a partner. Who knows if he would’ve really came through with giving me what I was supposed to get anyway... but that’s another story for another podcast, right? The Bitter Resentment Podcast, right? Not The Copywriter Club Podcast. Rob: That’s the next one we’re going to start. The Resentment Podcast is on the list, for sure. (laughs) Mike: So, I don’t know, but instead, I continued to be an employee there. I did a couple more things there, that relationship ended, and then I really immersed myself into marketing. And becoming a copywriter. And really focusing on three niches. The quote on quote stock pick-niche, I don’t like to call it the advisory niche because you know, real advisers are licensed and it’s much different; that copy is much different; there’s a lot of heavy regulations there. I know there are a lot of regulations in all copy to follow, so it’s more like the stock pick niche or the financial market niche whether it’s binary options or forex or futures or whatever it is, so not just stocks. And then I got into the B2B niche, specifically with software and services. And that was another big pivot for me, because when you’re marketing B2B, even though I believe marketing is marketing is marketing, there are definitely some idiosyncrasies and some quirks with the B2B market. Rob: Mike, tons to unpack there; I’ve got pictures of you sitting in a boiler room, I’ve got pictures of you sitting on your bike, you know, going house to house. So, let’s talk about sales for a minute, because I think a lot of people jumping into copywriting without a sales background have to learn how to do that through copy or whatever. You were doing this at thirteen! Is there something about your personality that made you naturally gifted at sales, or did you have to learn the skill and starting out that young, what are some of the first lessons that you learned as you were going door to door selling newspapers? Mike: Well, motivation is a big thing, right? I wanted a Gibson guitar, or a Fender guitar. I wound up getting both: a Fender Telecaster and a Gibson SG, because you know you have to have both. And if you don’t play guitar, you have no idea what that is. But, that was my motivation back then; all I cared about was my mother bought me a guitar. It was a starter guitar, and I wanted something better, and she was like, “Yeah, I’m not buying you a $400 guitar. Now granted,

In the 80th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, Kira and Rob share their take aways from the recent TCC In Real Life event in New York City, what’s going on in their businesses right now (and how they’re dealing with it) and what’s coming up in The Copywriter Club—the next Copywriter Think Tank and the new options we’re offering with The Copywriter Accelerator. We talked about: •  how some of the best parts of a conference aren’t at the conference •  a couple of highlights from the incredible presentations •  who won the scavenger hunt (and how well they did) •  what we’re working on and why we're suddenly feeling overwhelmed •  what mastermind groups have done for us and a few of the reasons you might want to consider one •  the changes we’ve made to The Copywriter Think Tank •  the new, more affordable, option for The Copywriter Accelerator To hear all about it, click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Hillary Weiss Parris Lampropolous Brian Kurtz Allison Comotto Katz’s Deli City Hunt The Copywriter Think Tank The Copywriter Accelerator Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group Intro: Content (for now) Outro: Gravity   Full Transcript: Kira: What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes and their habits. Then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work. That’s what Rob and I do every week at The Copywriter Club Podcast. Rob: You’re invited to join the club for episode 80 as Kira and I talk about a couple of our favorite moments from our event, The Copywriter Club In Real Life, why masterminds have been an important part of our personal and business growth. What’s happening in our own businesses and what’s happening in the club in the next few weeks. Kira: Hey Rob! Rob: Kira, how’s it going? Kira: It’s great. I feel like we haven’t chatted about our businesses and the club in a while. It feels like a while. Rob: Yeah, it’s been a while since we shared anything publicly anyway. I mean obviously, we talk every once in a while about what’s going on but it has been awhile since we shared what’s going on so we should definitely catch people up. Kira: Yeah, so big event ... Rob: Huge event. Kira: ...recent event. So, what did you think about TCC In Real Life? Rob: When you organize an event there’s all kinds of things that are going on. We were so busy in the weeks running up to it. In addition to the stuff we’re doing on the side with our own clients just trying to make sure that this event was going to come off swimmingly and I was so afraid that we were going to drop the ball or something was going to go wrong and after it was all said and done I kind of walked away and said okay we did an okay job. It was fun. It was like so gratifying in the way that so many speakers came to support us. The things that they shared were incredible and even the stuff that happened outside of the room. We just had a total blast. It was so much fun and I wish that it was the kind of thing we could have had more people there. How about you? What’d you think? Kira: Yeah, I think I remember you saying something about before the event about how this even might break us up or something... Rob: Yeah. Kira: Or cause us to get divorced and I was like yeah this is definitely testing our relationship, but we ended up making it through. It wasn’t that bad. So, I felt like for me, it was exactly what I envisioned in my head especially stepping into Hotel 50 Bowery months beforehand and kind of picturing it all and it surpassed what I envisioned and so yeah, I was really excited about it. I know how people say oh events feel magical and I’m like that sounds really woo-woo, but that’s the only way I can describe is it did feel magical and a bit surreal. Yeah, so I mean we had a bunch of speakers, like 15. Did any of their presentations really stand out to you? I feel like every presentation was so good. What did you take away from it? Rob: Yeah they were all so good. Without mentioning everybody, everything that was said there is definitely worth listening to and we’re going to make the tapes available and hopefully everybody can have the opportunity to watch and listen for themselves, but I just want to pick out like three or four highlights for me, you know, as I was sitting in the room. The one hitch of the entire show happened when I was trying to get Hillary Weiss’ slides loaded up and there was a change at the last minute of which slide deck was the right one. And I had the wrong one on the laptop. So, she was getting started I’m trying to pull up the slides and you know, I’ve got it there in the download and it’s downloading and of course it’s downloading over hotel WIFI. So, it’s like 150 megabyte file and it’s going at like 15 kilobytes a second, right? I’m sitting there just like I’m sweating just trying to get this thing to download and she starts going and she was awesome. Like without any slides for the first, I don’t know, 10 minutes of her talk she killed it. Then her entire presentation on personal branding, I was just so impressed with how good she was at just going and knowing her stuff. She’s just so sharp. She’s been such a great part of the community and that was for me, it was like a low light, because I’m up there sweating. But she just like killed it. Kira: Yeah. Rob: It was great. Kira: You should have seen your expressions during that 10 minutes. 10 or so minutes you were making all... I forget who I was sitting next to... Rob: Everybody’s laughing at me. Kira: ...just laughing as we watched you sweat up there and we’re like what’s happening, but yeah I mean credit to Hillary who just delivered without slides. I know when I presented in the past I rely heavily on slides. Many of us do, so that just speaks to who she is in business and in life. She brings it every time. So, thanks Hillary for not falling apart on us. Rob: Yeah it was incredible and then you know, other speakers that really jumped out for me, Paris Lampropoulos, of course he’s sort of an icon in the field. We were so excited when eh said that he wanted to speak on stage and we were just thrilled that we were able to have him be there. He talked a lot about the idea that what gets you to level one as a copywriter isn’t the thing that gets you to the next level. The thing that gets you to level two isn’t the thing that gets you to the next level and he even shared the letter that he wrote to get his first clients. He shared the processes that he’s gone through as he’s leveled up his business to the point now where he’s one of the guys that legitimately makes millions of dollars a year doing copy and the other thing is that he’s not a prima donna. He’s just such a genuinely nice guy and it was so cool having him there to share his story. Kira: Yeah and I think everybody could relate to his presentation because so many of us feel like we plateau at a certain point and we’re like why am I not moving forward? Well it’s because I’ve been doing the same thing and it’s no longer working. So for him to break it down and really share what he did at every stage to move forward, that’s definitely worth watching when the video content’s available. Rob: Two others I just want to mention, Brian Kurt, who’s been a mentor to both of us over the past year and has given so much. He donated the books, some of the books that we gave away in the SWAG bag. Really talked about what it’s going to take for copywriters to continue to perform well into the future and he talked a lot about masterminding and connecting with other writers and improving yourself. His whole presentation just really resonated, I think, with a lot of people but with me in particular. I love Brian, he’s just such a great guy. We appreciate his support as well. Kira: Yeah I mean the cool thing about Brian, I think what impressed me so many people. Of course, you and I know him pretty well at this point, but for people who didn’t know him well. They commented and said I can’t believe you’re sitting in the audience with us and learning with us and asking questions, but that’s who Brian is. He is a lifelong student and so passionate about continuing to share and teach what he knows, but also to continue to learn. And I think that’s why we all love him. I will say that what seems to resonate with our audience that he talked a lot about was going deep, you know, going deep in your niche. Just really staying super focused, which Rob, we talk about that all the time. Really choosing your niche wisely and focusing from there, but that really stood out to me too because I’ve gone through stages where I felt like I should jump into financial copy or health copy and just kind of sample everything. It’s become really clear from hearing presentations like his and others that it’s really good to just stay focused on what you do best until you truly have mastered it and are ready to move on. Rob: He was there the entire time taking notes in his notebook. He’s always learning. He’s always growing, one of the things I really admire about him. And then, finally, the last speaker who was Allison Comotto, we had her on the podcast a little while ago, she brought the roof down at the end. She was so energetic and so passionate it was almost unbelievable she’s only been a copywriter for the past eight or nine months. Her presentation was incredible. All about hustling and how that’s the secret to really taking your career forward and what she’s accomplished at Agora is, in my opinion, is incredible because of her hustle. Kira: Yeah we’ll link to that interview in our show notes because I don’t know which number that one is. Rob: Yeah, but yeah a great presentation. So, tell me,

Copywriter James Turner is our guest for the 79th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. We’ve known James for a few years now, so we’ve been saving up questions to ask him for a while. Here’s just a sample of what we covered... •  how James went from an English teacher in Japan to copywriter in Canada •  the jobs he took on as he started out in his career and what’s changed since •  his thoughts about retainers—the good and the bad •  his book ghostwriting experiment and what that involves •  why undercharging for work doesn’t serve you or your clients well •  how James gets more done with Pomodoros (and other tricks) •  “The power of asking” and how it got James a new business •  how automation can change your copywriting business •  why he started a podcast and the impact on his business •  how he networks (and his advice to copywriters who need to do more of it) James is the kind of copywriter we can all learn something from. Make sure you download this one to your favorite podcast app, or click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Hillary Weiss Laura Hanly Pomodoro Technique SNAP Copy Lianna Patch The Copy & Design Brew Podcast Oli Gardner (Unbounce) TCC IRL Business of Software ConversionXL CTAConf Turner Creative The other James Turner Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group Intro: Content (for now) Outro: Gravity   Full Transcript: Rob: What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That’s what Kira and I do every week at The Copywriter Club Podcast. Kira: You’re invited to join the club for episode 79, as we talk with freelance copywriter James Turner about ghostwriting a book, running a micro-agency like SNAP Copy, why he started a podcast, and what’s he’s learned from it, and what he’s done to manage his done and get everything done. Rob: Hey James! Kira: Welcome! James: Hello! Thanks for having me. Rob: Yeah, we’re glad that you’re here, finally! I mean again, another person that we should’ve talked to months ago; you’ve been on our radar, been in our circle of friends forever, and it’s about time you got here. So, thanks. James: Yeah. It’s a pleasure. I’m glad we waited; I have more things to say. Kira: Laughs. James: If you asked me a week ago, it would’ve been a mistake. Kira: Laughs. Rob: Laughs. James: Life moves fast! Kira: James, let’s start with your story. How’d you end up as a copywriter? James: So, I’ve been thinking about how to tell that story quickly. Long story short, I went from having an English degree to teaching English in Japan to working in HR at an English school in Japan, to being instructional designer in Fredericton, New Brunswick—little Fredericton, New Brunswick—to becoming a copywriter. That’s the story arc. The reason I specifically want to talk about the HR thing is because that was the first time I really, truly used words to their full power, I suppose, like in a persuasive way. If I may go a little bit into the story of that...? Rob: Please do. James: So we worked for this big school in Japan, this sort of conversational English school. My wife and I, we moved there; we lived in Japan for three and a half years. And, I was brought into the, sort of, the personal coordinator role in my last year there. They were sort of shaking up the top level foreign part of the company. Everyone above us was Japanese, so it was like a big Japanese company with all kinds of different arms of business, and the English school we were sort of at the top of...our column, if you will, our business arm. And, the morale was really crappy because the people before us had not done a good job internal communications, essentially. Like, it came down to sort of personality stuff, but at the end of the day, it was all a matter of how people were spoken to, typically in emails and that was basically what I did for the company. I mean I was myself, and I was friends with a bunch of teachers because I’d been there for a couple years, but in essence, I’d rewrote all of the sort of internal stuff, and most of the teachers were spread out over a long, large area—so we had about a hundred teachers going to forty-five different schools. So, the only real interaction they had with the company... and, so, you know, I think of these, like, now as a copywriter, I think that you know, we were all customers, in a way, you know? We had to buy into wanting to work there, to showing up and like representing the school in a positive way, and the only real interaction that we had with a company on a day-to-day basis was through these internal communications, and it made a big difference. Kira: So James, what did your first few copy jobs look like, beyond this role in HR, you know? Communicating and trying to keep the morale up. When you really jumped into copywriting, what types of jobs were you taking? James: My very, very first one was a product description job, and it was for a high-end whiskey decanter e-commerce store. And I got to describe...I think, fifty, or maybe thirty; no, maybe fifty...different whiskey decanters. It was a lot of fun! Laughs. Had a lot of fun with that job. There were three different brands, so I had this taxonomical sort of, you know, this brand gets this one line of intro sentence, and then, expands from there. And then they all had whimsical names, and...it was a lot of fun. That was my very first copy job. First client that I got, I should say, through the Copyhackers website. Rob: So tell us about your business today, the kinds of stuff that you work on, the projects that you take. What’s happened since those first couple of jobs that you took on? James: Well, I mean the main thing is, I have set a minimum, which those...that job would not be over, I suppose. So now, I try to do more strategic jobs that are...writing copy is not the only thing that’s involved, you know? I don’t love just writing what someone tells me to write, so it’s nice to sort of have some sway in whether that is the thing to write in the first place. I sort of pitch myself as someone who does emails and landing pages. Kira: So how did you get from where you were—writing product descriptions and taking your first few jobs—to a place now where it sounds like you’re kind of more of a consultant role, right, working on strategy and taking bigger projects, which we can get into. How do you get from there to here? Is there an easy way, or is it just time and experience, and just, kind of pounding the pavement? James: Yeah! Well, I think the biggest influxes of knowledge came through Joanna Wiebe’s various courses. Basically it got to the point where I’d read enough and learned enough about email marketing as a holistic thing, not just individual emails, that if I was hired to write a bunch of emails, I would take a step back and question whether this was the appropriate number or the right use of this particular type of email marketing, or you, how, you know, you ask a client, like, “How are you segmenting your list?” and they’re like, “What?” Laughs. And then you realize that... There comes a point, if you do enough learning, where you realize that you know more than you think you know. And that’s the point where you realize you have more to offer than just doing what people think they want. Rob: Interesting. So, the clients that you work with today, is it mostly conversion-oriented stuff, or is there a big mix of projects you take on? James: I’m still a bit of a mix. I like it that way. I’ve resisted obviously wise course of choosing a niche, or niche, as you like to say on here. Kira: Laughs. James: So yeah, I’d say it’s still a mix. Conversion....Persuasive writing. Kira: Right. James: I don’t do blog posts; I don’t like content where it’s just content for the sake of building authority. I like things that drive towards a point. So, in that sense I suppose it’s more conversion-oriented. Kira: And is it typically...I think you had a retainer client, maybe you have more than one retainer client...or is it one-off projects, or huge projects... Retainer clients, is it a mix of all of the above? James: It’s a mix, yeah. I went through a phase where I was like, “Retainers is the way to go!” Kira: Right! I remember that! James: Laughs. In the end, I didn’t like it as much. I much prefer a series of $2- to $10,000 jobs. You know? It keeps me on my toes; it gives me flexibility; it allows me to take time off, kind off, ad hoc. Not that a retainer can’t, but you have to be more planned. But yeah. I’ve swung over that way, and I’ve come back, and I think that I prefer this. Kira: Laughs. Rob: Can we go a little deeper on that? Because, I think a lot of writers think, “Hey, retainers? That’s the gold mine; I have monthly income coming in.” Let’s talk about the good and the bad: why you wanted retainers at first, and why you moved away from them, you know. What were the things that you really didn’t like about the retainer projects? James: Well, like, for one thing, they’re just this surface level. I’m naturally curious; I want to try new things; I want to do different things, and I think I—at some level—got a little bored just writing, sort of, the same thing, writing for the same product, writing for the same group of customers. Like, I really enjoy digging into the customer research, and, not that you only get to do it once, but, you can’t really justify continued research with the same retainer client unless they’ve got a huge business, or are trying something new all the time. So, stagnation, I suppose, is one thing. Another thing I felt was just it takes up a chunk of your time,

Inhouse copywriter Jon Lamphier joins Kira and Rob for the 78th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. We’ve known Jon for a few years now and really admire his ability to get readers to care about his writing. And he’s a lot of fun to hang out with. We talked with Jon about: •  how socializing at a trivia game led to a job as a copywriter •  what it’s like to work as at an agency and his terrifying first days •  when he first realized that copywriting was what he wanted to do (and that he was good at it) •  the kinds of work he took on as an agency copywriter •  how he developed the ability to throw out funny one-liners •  how he breaks down the creative process to get to the right idea •  what the day-to-day work looks like at an agency •  the dark side of agency life (the knife someone on the first day analogy) •  how he balances freelance and a regular copywriting day job •  how he gets himself into the mindset for coming up with good ideas •  the big career mistake he made on the way to an important pitch •  how a mastermind made him a better writer and agency employee •  what Jon is doing today as an in-house copywriter •  what he learned from moving his family to a new city for a new job •  his two-word advice to writers going through the job search process We also talked about why he doesn’t limit himself to a single niche, where he sees himself working in sixty years (okay, maybe not sixty years), the books and other resources he loves as a copywriter, and the #1 mistake he sees copywriters making (and the opportunity it presents to those who are ready for it). To hear it all, click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: McDonald’s George Clooney Joanna Wiebe Copyhackers David Ogilvy Aaron Sorkin JRR Tolkien Neil Gaiman Lianna Patch Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group Intro: Content (for now) Outro: Gravity   Full Transcript: Kira: What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That’s what Rob and I do every week at The Copywriter Club Podcast. Rob: You’re invited to join the club for episode 78, as we talk with in-house copywriter Jon Lamphier about how he became a copywriter; the ends and outs of agency life; what he does to stay creative; and how he got so good at writing great headlines. Kira: Jon, welcome! Jon: Hey guys. Rob: Jon. Kira: I can’t believe it’s taken us this long to get you on the show. Rob: Yeah, seriously. Jon: What? Why? You guys have had so many famous copywriters on the show, I am the opposite of that! Kira: Laughs. Rob: Maybe not famous, but every bit as talented, and certainly a better friend than most of them are to us. Jon: All right, I’ll take....I’ll take that. I’ll take that; I appreciate it. Kira: Laughs. So why don’t we start with your story, Jon? How did you end up as a copywriter? Jon: All right. Well, I had a past life in another career, but, when I went to a trivia night one night after my wife and I had moved to Greensboro, North Carolina... Showed up at that trivia night, and made a friend who was actually the host. Told him I thought he did a great job, and we got to talking over a couple of adult beverages, and you know, he started talking about how he was overloaded at work. One thing led to another, and I picked up a freelance gig working for the agency that he was working for; I knocked it out of the park, and sort of fell in and realized that this is what I should’ve been doing all along, so... Rob: So you’re not the kind of guy that grew up wishing to be a copywriter? You weren’t watching Darren Stevens on Bewitched, or you know, any.... Jon: No.... Rob: ....Thinking “copy’s for me”? Jon: No, I wasn’t. I mean, whether it was, you know, actively knowing it or not, like, I always loved advertising. I just... when stuff was clearly pointed at me, I could totally tell. And you could tell that I was bored with stuff that wasn’t, and that was fine, but I always loved words. English was a passion for a long time. Not in college, but, just the way that words work and what we can mean and how, you know, one thing can mean something to one person, and then another. That was always there, and, then the clever, sort of conceptual side of it kind of came to life when I got that first freelance gig. Kira: So Jon, what would you doing before you got this freelance gig? Jon: I got worked at McDonald’s for almost ten years.  I got to do a lot of people managing and training of people; sort of got really got at firing people too. Rob: Yeah, the “George Clooney” of McDonald’s? What was his role in firing people? Jon: Maybe not that big, but you know, just getting people to understand what they had done, and how that was fire-able and how it was just like, hey, it’s nothing personal, it’s just the job, and that was sort of what spawned this mentality of wanting to work with people who were passionate about the same stuff that I was. I know that’s a weird thing to come from McDonald’s and you don’t think about that, but you can tell when people want to work together, or when they’re just in it for themselves. And that was real learning experience from that, that certainly applies to my current line of work. Kira: So what was fire-able at that point? I need some stories! Jon: Laughs. I mean, the same thing that’s fire-able everywhere, you know? Not showing up and not doing good work. Those are pretty universal things, and it’s not super-obvious to everyone at whatever stage of life you’re in if you haven’t been taught that lesson that you have to show up and you have to work hard. That’s it; nothing in particular, but if we want to keep it to things that are universally applicable, I mean there’s other stuff about that restaurant industry that people who’ve worked in that will understand, and it’s fast-paced, and you’re on your feet all day. And those are things too that make it hard, but at the same time, you still got to show up and do good work, so... Rob: Making a mental note: show up. Do good work...yeah. Jon: Yeah, that can be the whole thing! I mean, just...laughs...it’s hard to always keep that top-of-mind, but it’s certainly what drives me some of the time where it’s just....you have to go do it, you know. You may not feel like it, but you have to. Rob: So let’s talk a little bit about your first agency job, and you told us how you broke in, which, I think a lot of people when they think, “Hey, I want to work for an ad agency,” they really struggle to break in. You did it basically by creating a relationship, but what were the early days of that job like, you know? Learning how to be an agency copywriter...just walk us through the details of that. Jon: The first days of that were terrifying. And if they’re not terrifying for you, as somebody who’s never worked at an agency, you’re stronger than I am, but agencies have this reputation for being, you know, this exciting, really fast-paced, lots of stuff going on. I mean, we’ve all seen Mad Men and every other representation of an agency atmosphere, and it’s pretty true, I mean, apart from like the philandering and misogyny that’s in Mad Men, like a lot of the bureaucracy and the process and having lots of people who are good at different things and not necessarily overlapping? It’s really true. So, it’s an exciting atmosphere; there are super-focused on reputation and making impressions, but it was intense at first, because it is a lot of stuff that gets thrust on you and, again, if you’re not doing the work, it’s easy to just kind of fade into the background. Kira: What type of projects were you working on? Jon: At first I was working on projects that sort of already had a campaign around them, so I would do brochure pieces or, you know, landing pages, or smaller parts of a bigger campaign or bigger look and feel that had kind of already been created. So that was really what sharpened my skills as far as being able to jump in and out of different projects. I mean, that’s one of the huge upsides to working at an agency, and I think the reason a lot of people like the agency environment if you’re....you get.... I mean, I don’t get bored easily, but I’ve a pretty low threshold for boredom, and in an agency, you know, you get to work on lots of different types of accounts and get a lot of experience really quickly. You still have to work your butt off, but it’s definitely something where you get to show that you can write for a lot of different forms. Rob: One of the things that I’ve noticed about you Jon is that you have an ability for the quick turn-up phrase, which seems to be a skill that a lot of agencies like, you know, whether it’s a headline, or a tagline, or just a creative idea. Is that natural? Do you work at that? Like, if I wanted to be more... develop that skill in me, what could I do? Jon: First, it doesn’t hurt to have a family that’s incredibly quick-witted too, and being the youngest person in that family, you’re always—I mean, I say without, you know, any reservation, I am constantly seeking approval, and that helps sharpen your sword immensely! Laughs. Kira: Laughs. Rob: Right, right. Jon: I had a grandfather who was hysterically fast, and just an absolute sniper when it came to funny lines and just breaking in at exactly the right time, and my dad and my brother, the same. And my mom, you know, was always quick with an eye-roll at something that was really great, but she just, you know, had heard it so many times before. But that’s a good way to start and if you don’t have that, yes, you definitely have to work at it. All it takes to be good at a quick line, at a small line, at a headline,

For episode 77 of The Copywriter Club Podcast, Kira and Rob talk with copywriter and marketing specialist Christine Laureano about her business, what it’s like to work with different niches that are completely different (makers and engineers), and a whole lot more. Here’s what we covered in our time together: •  how she went from the corporate world to maker to marketer to copywriter •  what she did to deal with a devastating personal tragedy •  the importance of carving focused creative time out of your day •  how she created systems to support her work and produce results •  the difference between working with big clients and small clients •  how she conducts her discovery process to uncover additional work (she gives a specific example) •  the process she went through to land a recent engineering client •  how she deals with working in more than one niche •  what she does to find clients who can pay within her niche •  why she is involved in more than one master mind group •  how she stays upbeat all the time (this is great advice) She also explains why e-commerce is such a rich opportunity for writers today—the growth in this sector makes it hard to ignore. To listen, click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Copyblogger Angels by Silver Ravenwolf The Copywriter Accelerator Danny Iny Teach and Grow Rich The Copywriter Think Tank Joanna Wiebe The J Peterman Company Seinfeld Ba6marketing.com Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group Intro: Content (for now) Outro: Gravity Full Transcript: Rob: What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That’s what Kira and I do every week at The Copywriter Club Podcast. Kira: You’re invited to join the club for episode 77 as we chat with copywriter Christine Laureano about her path from business owner to copywriter, writing for engineers and other technical clients, how she uses her coaching experience as a copywriter, and how she stays so positive through the ups and downs of business. Kira: Welcome, Christine. Rob: Hey, Christine. Christine: Hey, guys! Excited to be here. Thanks for having me. Kira: Yeah, welcome! Rob: It’s great to have you here. Kira: All right, Christine, I know you have a really interesting path and story and we’d love to share it with our listeners. Christine: Oh, yeah, the winding path. Okay. Well, I am probably one of the oldest copywriters in The Copywriter Club. My path started back in the 80’s, way before the internet, when marketing was still done with maybe a computer, but pen and paper; rock and chisel. But I graduated college with a marketing degree and a minor in computer science. So not only was I into the marketing end of it, but I love the tech stuff. So I ended up getting a job at Xerox, and I did the corporate thing for several years. From there, I go down to a very, very technical job as a marketing exec, managing executive for accounts for an electronics distributor. I worked really closely with engineers, I worked with purchasing, I worked with production and manufacturing, and I did that for a really long time and that satisfied my technical need. And of course, the writing that I did for that was really that boring, dry copy. It was proposals, it was the stuff that I hate to think about when I look back on it. And then from there, I ended up having a family. And this is where everything kind of turned and the reason I talk about it like this is, I know everybody has life lessons and things and tragedies and things that happened in their life that forced them to pivot, and I had one of those. Our first daughter ended up passing in daycare. So my life completely, completely changed. I spent a month on the couch, literally, trying to figure out, “What am I going to do with myself? What am I going to do my life?” I actually finally ended up getting off the couch, took a shower, and went to a bookstore and books were, you know, a great solace for me, but not non-fiction. I went to all the how to books. “How to feel better”, “How to get your life back”—all that. And that really made me think about what were the next steps. So when I had my next children, there was no way daycare was in the picture, so what could I do that would use some of my talents, but yet, allow me to be home with my kids? And the big part of it was, how to feel good while doing it. So I ended up creating a natural skincare line. I became a certified aromatherapist, I worked a lot with essential oils, and I just wanted to play around with products that made people feel really good, so I did that for a little bit, and then as it started to grow, and I had products on every flat surface of my house, I actually got scared. Because I thought about, “Wow, my next step is to become a manufacturer, get a facility, move out; what do I do with my kids?” So the worst thing I could possible do: I bailed. I gave it all up and I bailed. Actually, it was a really good decision at the time because that’s when I discovered how to do other maker things. I became a chocolatier, I did other fun things that I could burn my time without having to become another big business. And that’s when I discovered coaching. Because one of the things that I loved to do was coach other women in their creative business on how to start a business. So I did that for a while. I worked in the coaching space for a bit. But I really, really missed the product-end of it. That was a service-based business and I missed doing the products. So I decided to go back, re-launched my product, I rebranded, I renamed, and I built that business literally from the ground up with new formulas, new GMB compliancy, FDA regulations, and all that. But what I discovered in this winding path was that, all the pieces that came together were, I love marketing! And it was my creative director at Basics Botanicals and I found that that was my passion. I didn’t love making as much as I loved marketing. So that’s what brought me to copywriting. I did copywriting in my interim with children. I did do a couple year’s stint as a freelancer. And I did work for ADT and a couple agencies here on Long Island, but as I had my second child, I ended up working away from that because I lived so far away from everybody. So I pulled away from that, and that’s when all these other things happened and I came back to it back in 2015. I got a certification from Copyblogger for their content marketing because I loved the way that fit into e-commerce businesses and trying to help other makers get seen and heard without a big budget for marketing. So I started with that, and then it just kind of grew back into loving copy, and optimizing—not that I’m great at it, but I love the idea of it—and I ended up in Joanna Wiebe’s mastermind. I love how Joanna put together the idea of conversion copy with research-based information, not just a direct marketing aspect of it. So that’s really how I came back into copywriting, in this windy path. Rob: Okay. There is SO much that we can cover here and so many different questions that we want to ask, but, really don’t want to gloss over—you mentioned the tragedy of losing your daughter, you know at a real pivotal point in your life, and hopefully I’m not asking too much, but, you know I think a lot of people go through tragedies like that, and aren’t able to talk about them, and so I’m just wondering how you got through that? You mentioned a month on the couch. I just can’t even imagine how to deal with that kind of a thing. How did you possibly get through that? Christine: Yeah, and thanks for asking because you know what? Everybody has some kind of tragedy in their life, and the one thing for me was, a month was kind of a short time, but it was a really long time not to take a shower, so....laughs. Kira: Laughs. Christine: I really had to get up. Rob: Sure, sure. Christine: It actually took many, many, years to work through it, but what I discovered at the end of that month was, I could do one of two things: I could spiral up, or I could spiral down. And I was headed in the downward spiral really fast. And that’s when I got up and I went to the bookstore, and I literally—for a lot of the spiritual people out there, they’ll get this: I actually found a book on angels. And it was the strangest thing, because wherever I turned in the bookstore, there that book was. Kira: Huh! Christine: So I’m like, “Okay....I’ll pick that book up, I guess!” The universe has an interesting way of showing us just what we need. I have never seen that book again; it wasn’t in any other bookstore after that. So, you know, I really kind of took that time to regroup and really get to know myself. I allowed myself to grieve again; it was a long, long, long process, because the way this tragedy happened. So, I let myself be there. But in the meantime, I let myself also kind of dabble back into my creative side, because anybody that works for corporate knows how mind-numbing corporate work can be. I had, you know, mind-numbing from that and then, the tragedy of my daughter, just... You know, my head was not in the good place. So, I just got really creative. Rob: My guess is, having gone through that too, you probably have sort of a better sense of the importance of family, and the time that you spend there, and I think that’s probably impacted the rest of your career, because you’ve really been there for you other kids. You want to make sure that time is important. Christine: Absolutely. And, that was right Rob—top of mind for anything else I did was, you know, my main priority was my family and my kids, being there for them.