TCC Podcast #78: Selling the Best Idea with Jon Lamphier

Inhouse copywriter Jon Lamphier joins Kira and Rob for the 78th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. We’ve known Jon for a few years now and really admire his ability to get readers to care about his writing. And he’s a lot of fun to hang out with. We talked with Jon about: •  how socializing at a trivia game led to a job as a copywriter •  what it’s like to work as at an agency and his terrifying first days •  when he first realized that copywriting was what he wanted to do (and that he was good at it) •  the kinds of work he took on as an agency copywriter •  how he developed the ability to throw out funny one-liners •  how he breaks down the creative process to get to the right idea •  what the day-to-day work looks like at an agency •  the dark side of agency life (the knife someone on the first day analogy) •  how he balances freelance and a regular copywriting day job •  how he gets himself into the mindset for coming up with good ideas •  the big career mistake he made on the way to an important pitch •  how a mastermind made him a better writer and agency employee •  what Jon is doing today as an in-house copywriter •  what he learned from moving his family to a new city for a new job •  his two-word advice to writers going through the job search process We also talked about why he doesn’t limit himself to a single niche, where he sees himself working in sixty years (okay, maybe not sixty years), the books and other resources he loves as a copywriter, and the #1 mistake he sees copywriters making (and the opportunity it presents to those who are ready for it). To hear it all, click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: McDonald’s George Clooney Joanna Wiebe Copyhackers David Ogilvy Aaron Sorkin JRR Tolkien Neil Gaiman Lianna Patch Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group Intro: Content (for now) Outro: Gravity   Full Transcript: Kira: What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That’s what Rob and I do every week at The Copywriter Club Podcast. Rob: You’re invited to join the club for episode 78, as we talk with in-house copywriter Jon Lamphier about how he became a copywriter; the ends and outs of agency life; what he does to stay creative; and how he got so good at writing great headlines. Kira: Jon, welcome! Jon: Hey guys. Rob: Jon. Kira: I can’t believe it’s taken us this long to get you on the show. Rob: Yeah, seriously. Jon: What? Why? You guys have had so many famous copywriters on the show, I am the opposite of that! Kira: Laughs. Rob: Maybe not famous, but every bit as talented, and certainly a better friend than most of them are to us. Jon: All right, I’ll take....I’ll take that. I’ll take that; I appreciate it. Kira: Laughs. So why don’t we start with your story, Jon? How did you end up as a copywriter? Jon: All right. Well, I had a past life in another career, but, when I went to a trivia night one night after my wife and I had moved to Greensboro, North Carolina... Showed up at that trivia night, and made a friend who was actually the host. Told him I thought he did a great job, and we got to talking over a couple of adult beverages, and you know, he started talking about how he was overloaded at work. One thing led to another, and I picked up a freelance gig working for the agency that he was working for; I knocked it out of the park, and sort of fell in and realized that this is what I should’ve been doing all along, so... Rob: So you’re not the kind of guy that grew up wishing to be a copywriter? You weren’t watching Darren Stevens on Bewitched, or you know, any.... Jon: No.... Rob: ....Thinking “copy’s for me”? Jon: No, I wasn’t. I mean, whether it was, you know, actively knowing it or not, like, I always loved advertising. I just... when stuff was clearly pointed at me, I could totally tell. And you could tell that I was bored with stuff that wasn’t, and that was fine, but I always loved words. English was a passion for a long time. Not in college, but, just the way that words work and what we can mean and how, you know, one thing can mean something to one person, and then another. That was always there, and, then the clever, sort of conceptual side of it kind of came to life when I got that first freelance gig. Kira: So Jon, what would you doing before you got this freelance gig? Jon: I got worked at McDonald’s for almost ten years.  I got to do a lot of people managing and training of people; sort of got really got at firing people too. Rob: Yeah, the “George Clooney” of McDonald’s? What was his role in firing people? Jon: Maybe not that big, but you know, just getting people to understand what they had done, and how that was fire-able and how it was just like, hey, it’s nothing personal, it’s just the job, and that was sort of what spawned this mentality of wanting to work with people who were passionate about the same stuff that I was. I know that’s a weird thing to come from McDonald’s and you don’t think about that, but you can tell when people want to work together, or when they’re just in it for themselves. And that was real learning experience from that, that certainly applies to my current line of work. Kira: So what was fire-able at that point? I need some stories! Jon: Laughs. I mean, the same thing that’s fire-able everywhere, you know? Not showing up and not doing good work. Those are pretty universal things, and it’s not super-obvious to everyone at whatever stage of life you’re in if you haven’t been taught that lesson that you have to show up and you have to work hard. That’s it; nothing in particular, but if we want to keep it to things that are universally applicable, I mean there’s other stuff about that restaurant industry that people who’ve worked in that will understand, and it’s fast-paced, and you’re on your feet all day. And those are things too that make it hard, but at the same time, you still got to show up and do good work, so... Rob: Making a mental note: show up. Do good work...yeah. Jon: Yeah, that can be the whole thing! I mean, just...laughs...it’s hard to always keep that top-of-mind, but it’s certainly what drives me some of the time where it’s just....you have to go do it, you know. You may not feel like it, but you have to. Rob: So let’s talk a little bit about your first agency job, and you told us how you broke in, which, I think a lot of people when they think, “Hey, I want to work for an ad agency,” they really struggle to break in. You did it basically by creating a relationship, but what were the early days of that job like, you know? Learning how to be an agency copywriter...just walk us through the details of that. Jon: The first days of that were terrifying. And if they’re not terrifying for you, as somebody who’s never worked at an agency, you’re stronger than I am, but agencies have this reputation for being, you know, this exciting, really fast-paced, lots of stuff going on. I mean, we’ve all seen Mad Men and every other representation of an agency atmosphere, and it’s pretty true, I mean, apart from like the philandering and misogyny that’s in Mad Men, like a lot of the bureaucracy and the process and having lots of people who are good at different things and not necessarily overlapping? It’s really true. So, it’s an exciting atmosphere; there are super-focused on reputation and making impressions, but it was intense at first, because it is a lot of stuff that gets thrust on you and, again, if you’re not doing the work, it’s easy to just kind of fade into the background. Kira: What type of projects were you working on? Jon: At first I was working on projects that sort of already had a campaign around them, so I would do brochure pieces or, you know, landing pages, or smaller parts of a bigger campaign or bigger look and feel that had kind of already been created. So that was really what sharpened my skills as far as being able to jump in and out of different projects. I mean, that’s one of the huge upsides to working at an agency, and I think the reason a lot of people like the agency environment if you’re....you get.... I mean, I don’t get bored easily, but I’ve a pretty low threshold for boredom, and in an agency, you know, you get to work on lots of different types of accounts and get a lot of experience really quickly. You still have to work your butt off, but it’s definitely something where you get to show that you can write for a lot of different forms. Rob: One of the things that I’ve noticed about you Jon is that you have an ability for the quick turn-up phrase, which seems to be a skill that a lot of agencies like, you know, whether it’s a headline, or a tagline, or just a creative idea. Is that natural? Do you work at that? Like, if I wanted to be more... develop that skill in me, what could I do? Jon: First, it doesn’t hurt to have a family that’s incredibly quick-witted too, and being the youngest person in that family, you’re always—I mean, I say without, you know, any reservation, I am constantly seeking approval, and that helps sharpen your sword immensely! Laughs. Kira: Laughs. Rob: Right, right. Jon: I had a grandfather who was hysterically fast, and just an absolute sniper when it came to funny lines and just breaking in at exactly the right time, and my dad and my brother, the same. And my mom, you know, was always quick with an eye-roll at something that was really great, but she just, you know, had heard it so many times before. But that’s a good way to start and if you don’t have that, yes, you definitely have to work at it. All it takes to be good at a quick line, at a small line, at a headline,