TCC Podcast #106: Using psychology in your copy with Kirsty Fanton

Copywriter Kirsty Fanton joins Kira and Rob to talk about psychology in copy in this episode off The Copywriter Club Podcast. Kirsty’s experience includes a degree in psychology and work as a counselor and what she learned in those roles has had a big impact on her work for her clients. She shares how you can use psychology to forge a better connection with your clients. We talked about: •  How a travel blog helped Kirsty discover copywriting and land her first clients •  The things she did to get started the right way •  How her work as a counselor makes her a better business owner •  The importance of reflective practice and her 3-pronged approach that she uses to improve •  How she conducts a debrief call •  The different lenses her psychology background gives her to find the “meaty” parts in her research •  How she uses “naming” to discover what prospects are really feeling •  How she builds rapport quickly with prospects when she’s interviewing •  Narrative therapy and how copywriters can use it effectively •  The one question everyone asks—knowing it will make your copy better •  The two kinds of persuasion techniques •  How she keeps it all together and gets things done •  The mistakes she sees other copywriters making (that she’s avoided) There are a lot of great ideas and “psychological tricks” you can borrow to improve your own interviewing and copywriting. And, if you haven’t read her post about indirect hints in copy, you should click here. To hear the interview, click the play button below, or visit iTunes, Stitcher or your favorite podcast app. And if you’re the type that likes to read, scroll down for a full transcript. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: The Copywriter Accelerator Kirsty's website Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group Intro: Content (for now) Outro: Gravity Full Transcript: Kira:     What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes and their habits. Then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That's what Rob and I do every week at The Copywriter Club Podcast. Rob:    You're invited to join the club for episode 106 as we chat with copywriter Kirsty Fenton about how her background in psychology helps her write great copy for her clients, the narrative therapy techniques she uses to get prospects to take action, and the one question people regularly ask and how you can use it to your advantage in just about everything you write. Hey, Kirsty. Kira:     Kirsty, welcome. Kirsty: Thanks guys. Great to be here. Kira:     Before we jumped in with Kirsty and started recording, we were telling her how we haven't interviewed someone in at least two months because we both had been on vacation, so I'm sweating over here like I feel really anxious, Kirsty. A good place to start is with our basic question. Let's start with your story and how did you end up as a copywriter? Kirsty: Yeah, sure. So I got into copywriting and quite a roundabout way. As you said, I have a background in psychology, so when I finished high school I went to Uni, did an undergrad in psych and a post grad in counseling and then worked as a counselor for five years, and also lectured a couple of psych subjects at university here in Sydney. Anyway, all was going well and then in 2014 my partner and I decided we wanted to take a belated gap year. We packed up our lives and moved over to France for 12 months, which was amazing. While we were over there I kept a blog of our adventures just as a way of keeping our friends and family in the loop on what we were actually getting up to. Anyway, by the time we got back to Australia at the end of 2015, a couple of my friends had started their own business and they liked the way I'd written about our travels on my blog and asked if I'd like to write their copy, so I said yes. Not that I had any idea what a copy was at that point, but I thought why not? I'll give it a crack and I did that on the side of a counseling job. I think it was about six to 10 hours a week to start with, and then about six months later I decided to just take the leap and try out copywriting full time. Rob:    How did that work out? That first couple ... that first leap? What did that look like? Kirsty: People think I was brave. I think I was just a bit stupid in terms of what it would actually entail. I mean it worked out quite well, I think. For the first year I was doing quite well. I was just getting work via word of mouth referrals, although I wasn't getting to spend my time working on projects that I really enjoyed. I was more just doing whatever came my way. It wasn't until I joined your Accelerator actually in, I think it was November last year, that I actually sort of started putting myself in the driver's seat a bit more and building something that today I'm really quite proud of and really enjoying. There have been some big changes definitely since I started. Kira:     All right, so I want to ask you about your gap year because that sounds fantastic. What triggered you and your partner to say, hey, we're going to go away for 12 months, hang out in France? What was the catalyst for that decision? Kirsty: A couple of things. I think in Australia gap years are almost like a rite of passage, I think because we're so isolated and it takes so long to get anywhere. We almost figure that we might as well go for a big chunk of time and neither of us had actually ever done a gap year and we were getting close to the age where we couldn't get long-term visas anymore, so we were like well, it's kind of now or never. The work I was doing at that stage was with the big cancer charity here in Australia. Working with people that had advanced cancer so it was quite draining, quite full on, and my partner's work was also quite full on. He was working very long hours, so we just figured why not take a break from it all and just spend a year doing everything that we wouldn't ever do here in Australia. We spent time working on vineyards on a foie gras farm- Kira:     What? Kirsty: At a French restaurant. Yeah, we did all sorts of crazy stuff. It was really good. Rob:    Before we leave the whole travel thing, give us the top three takeaways from your year in France. Kirsty: Oh, good question, Rob. Okay. Top three takeaways. Oh, God. Well, I mean learned a new language, but most of which I've forgotten now, but that was interesting I guess, and a pretty valuable skill to have. Also learned that I'm capable of doing a lot more than I thought I could when it comes to physical sort of farming skills because I'm certainly not by any means a practical farming type person, but yeah. I was getting up in there and butchering ducks, and pruning grapes, and bottling wine, and doing all those sorts of things. I don't know, third biggest one I think was maybe just the real value of getting right outside your comfort zone. Kira:     Wow, I love all that. When you came out of that experience at that point you were ready to leave your previous career behind or were you still considering that as an option before he jumped into copywriting? Kirsty: I actually came back and got a counseling job straight away and I don't think I would have left that career if the opportunity hadn't presented itself. I was quite happy counseling. I'm much happier now writing copy, but I don't think it would have been an avenue I would have got to on my own. I think it was just great timing and also the fact that I came back quite poor because we didn't actually earn any money for those 12 months. Any opportunity to earn some extra money on top of my counseling salary was definitely something I wanted to jump at. Yeah, just sort of right place, right time, right chance I guess. Kira:     You mentioned that you stepped into the driver's seat in your business and that's when things really changed and you feel proud of the business you've created since then. It seems like there is a stark contrast for so many copywriters where they're kind of starting out taking gigs, whatever comes their way, and then there's this moment or some changes they make so that they are finally in the driver's seat and we all get there at a different time. Some people it takes a lot longer. What did you do to step into the driver's seat? What did those changes look like for you? Kirsty: I think a lot of it was just about giving myself permission to sort of forge my own path and make my own way because as someone who's spent my whole working life being an employee, it was a huge change to wake up one day and realize that I was actually in control of what I was doing and where I was going and I didn't know what to do with that until I did join The Accelerator and that obviously takes it through all those modules like niching, and pricing, and packaging, and processes. The first thing I did with niche down into writing humorous emails, changed my website, and sort of I guess announced that change to my little corner of the Internet. Then from there I think it was just about not waiting. I think often as you say, new copywriters can spend a little time just waiting, sitting around for someone to tell them what to do, or for a prospect to find you, or for permission to just sort of go out and start doing stuff. It was just essentially saying what the hell, I'm just going to try and experiment and see what works and go with it what feels good. Rob:    I love it. We've been able to watch your business develop so we've seen a little bit of where you came from to where you are now, but talk about what you're doing today, where your clients come from, the kind of work that you do mostly. Kirsty: As I said, I'm mostly all about emails,