TCC Podcast #116: The Troll Framework with Nabeel Azeez

Our guest for the 116th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast is Nabeel Azeez. Kira and Rob talked with Nabeel about getting put in time out in the Facebook club, cultivating controversy as part of your branding strategy, being a “troll” and a lot more. Here are the specifics: •  how Nabeel became a copywriter and what he does today •  becoming “Dubai’s most expensive” copywriter •  why he was put on a “time out” from The Copywriter Club •  how copywriters can stop selling themselves short •  niching—should you do it or not? •  the “Troll Framework” and how it works •  why you might consider being more controversial and why you might not •  attraction versus repulsion marketing and which works better •  what you need to do as a newer copywriter (it’s not set up a website) •  the three reasons he’s writing a book •  what he’s struggling with most in his business •  selling on the phone (and why more copywriters should do it) • the biggest opportunities for copywriters today Want to hear it? Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript. Or you can download it to your favorite podcast app.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Ramit Sethi Alpha Muslim The Think Tank Mel Abraham Alaura Weaver Agora DragonEnergy.me Chanti Zak Paige Poutiainen Myrna Begnel Zero to Launch Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group Intro: Content (for now) Outro: Gravity   Full Transcript: Rob:   This podcast is sponsored by The Copywriter Underground. Kira:   It's our new membership designed for you to help you attract more clients and hit 10K a month consistently. Rob:   For more information or to sign up, go to thecopywriterunderground.com. What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That's what Kira and I do every week at The Copywriter Club Podcast. Kira:   You're invited to join the club for episode 116 as we chat with copywriter and entrepreneur Nabeel Azeez about his claim to be Dubai's most expensive copywriter, his Troll Framework, investing in himself and his business, what it feels like to get kicked out of The Copywriter Club Facebook group, and what it means to be an alpha Muslim. Welcome, Nabeel. Rob:   Hey, Nabeel. Nabeel:          Hello. What up? What up? What's up, Rob and Kira? This is a long time coming. Second time's a charm. We tried this one time earlier in the year, but I totally sucked, so obviously it wasn't published. Rob:   I think maybe it had more to do with a bad Internet connection to where you are, which isn't always easy to get a connection. Kira:   Yeah. Well, we're glad you're back, anyway. Nabeel:          Yeah. I'm coming at you from a cave in Dubai somewhere. Kira:   All right, Nabeel. Let's kick this off with your story. How did you get into copywriting? Nabeel:          Right. I fell into copywriting by accident. I used to volunteer at this community center, and out of the group I had the best command of written English, so generally it fell to me to write the email blasts and marketing collaterals. At the time, I didn't know that you called this copywriting. Along the way I got exposed, or introduced to Ramit Sethi, and he introduced me to this world of personal development and online business I never knew existed. And then I ended up getting my first paid gig, also by accident. The community center was organizing a conference. And my friend, who was also a volunteer, he had his own marketing agency, and they commissioned him to brand the event and create all of the marketing. Obviously, he needed a writer, so he sub-contracted that out to me. I ended up writing the entire website, all of the marketing collaterals, a bespoke invitation for VIPs, and even a script for a marketing video. It was total amateur hour, and as I look back on it now, as I look at the website now, I cringe. But that was my first full package. So now I'm thinking, ‘Yo, I might could do this. I could sell my services as a writer.’ And that's when Nabeel Azeez, the copywriter, was born. Rob:   Tell us about your business since then, Nabeel. Obviously you've moved on to other clients. You're a partner, I believe, in an ad agency. You're working on your own projects. Once you decided to be a copywriter, then what? Nabeel:          Right. I have a bunch of things going on right now. Nabeel Azeez is a direct-response copywriter, author, and marketing consultant. Dropkick Copy is my boutique content studio, and I run that with my brother. Becoming the Alpha Muslim is a self-improvement blog for Muslim men, and that's my side-hustle. I was a partner in a marketing agency. I was helping out a few friends with their content strategy, but I've since moved on from that earlier in the year. Now I'm just on my own now. As a copywriter, I actually haven't nailed down a core offer yet. I write a bunch of things for a bunch of people, and I kind of like the feeling of being versatile. I'm not really sure I buy into the idea of niche’ing down. I get it, and there's a strong argument for it, but I'm not fully sold yet. Maybe that's just me not being willing or not being ready to commit to niche’ing down and going all in on one offer. But at Dropkick Copy, we sort of recently had an epiphany after launching a podcast for a client. Getting the client to create the content, it actually solves many of the problems we have when businesses outsource their content marketing. So, for now, we're only selling a done-for-you podcast launching service. Basically what we do is, we plan and build a show with the client, and then we take post-production, distribution, and promotion off their plate. So it's like a win-win, especially if the client has a high-ticket offer, or their customers go through a measured or thought-through buying process. Kira:   So Nabeel, how did you end up as Dubai's most expensive copywriter? Where did that come from? What was the catalyst for that? Nabeel:          Right. I generally like to experiment with a bunch of different things, and this tagline is one of them. I wanted to see what effect that would have on my personal brand online. It isn't false advertising; I do believe that I am the most expensive copywriter in Dubai. If I find someone more expensive, I'll raise my rates. However, being Dubai's most expensive copywriter doesn't mean I'm the world's most expensive copywriter or even America's most expensive copywriter, because I just charge US rates while living in Dubai. Sometimes I get some pushback from prospects, because they are trying to geo-arbitrage, and they think that they might get a cheapo copywriter because they're in America and we're over here. But they don't realize that the work that gets put in is exactly the same, and if they want quality and results, then they're going to have to pay accordingly. Rob:   So Nabeel, before we go any farther, we should probably note that you are one of the few copywriters that has actually been kicked out of The Copywriter Club Facebook group, at least for several months. Maybe we should talk about why that happened, and what's happened since. Nabeel:          I would reframe it, and say I was put on a time-out. I just recently sent in a join request, and that was accepted, so I'm back in The Copywriter Club now. Kira:   You're back in. Nabeel:          Yeah. So I'm going to make a grand entrance as soon as this drops. So to answer Rob's question, the catalyst for me getting put on a time-out was, basically I had been helping a bunch of female copywriters out. They had been messaging me, and I had been giving them advice on their business, how to package their services, what to charge, et cetera, et cetera. And I found this common theme occurring, and that was highly competent writers who for some reason or other keep selling themselves short. And these were all women. I haven't actually noticed that with male copywriters that I know. That gave me an idea for a product and a post. And I was actually testing, or trying to validate the product idea, or the service idea, and I posted in The Copywriter Club. Long story short, all hell broke loose, and Kira, Rob, and Brit had to do a bunch of damage control. To appease the mob's bloodlust, I had to be sacrificed. I don't actually regret writing what I did. The only thing I regret is actually putting the two of you and Brit in a difficult position like that. And I do believe I've apologized for my part in this fiasco. Rob:   Yeah. The whole thing was kind of interesting, because there was a lot of discussion around cultural differences, and those obviously come into play. There was a lot of discussion around what we're willing to tolerate for feminists versus racism, and those kinds of things. I think we had some pretty valuable discussion around that in the group at the time. I don't necessarily want to revisit that, because I think a lot of that ground has been crossed. But it's fair to say that you, with that post, offended a good number of people in our group. It was, I think, fairly described by some as over the top, and maybe not quite appropriate for what we are trying to accomplish in our group. Kira:   Right. So let's talk about what you've been doing since then. Because I think some good has come out of it for your business, and then also for our group. I think that the hard discussions we were forced to have at the time were hopefully productive for the community, even though it did cause some stress. I had a couple of stressful evenings around that time. But I feel like I see dude copywriters who struggle as well, and sell themselves short. I mean we could argue whether more women sell themselves short. I don't have those stats. But how would you say,