Queer Theology

Pride brings out many people trying to show their support for the LGBTQ+ community and an interesting conversation about how churches show up at Pride inspired this week’s episode. In this conversation, we explore the role of churches supporting and engaging with the LGBTQ community during Pride Month. We have some practical insight on how churches can show genuine involvement, service, and inclusivity, while showing up meaningfully at Pride events and beyond.   Takeaways Pride Month is celebrated globally, creating a sense of connection among queer individuals. Churches should actively participate in Pride events to show support for the LGBTQ community. Involvement should be led by queer and trans individuals within the church community. Churches must avoid centering themselves and instead focus on the needs of the queer community. Aesthetic presentation at Pride events matters; churches should invest in their displays. Service and support should be prioritized over recruitment at Pride events. Churches can provide tangible support, such as water stations for marchers. Engagement with the queer community should extend beyond Pride Month. Ongoing education and training are essential for creating inclusive church environments. Churches should explore diverse ways to incorporate queer culture into their programming.   Chapters (00:56) Churches and Their Role in Pride Events (04:00) Guiding Principles for Religious Groups at Pride (07:08) Tangible Support and Service to the Queer Community (10:02) Engaging with the Community Beyond Pride Month (12:59) Creating Inclusive Spaces Year-Round (15:56) Ongoing Education and Awareness for Inclusivity (19:10) Broader Engagement with Queer Culture (22:07) Building Lasting Relationships with the Community   Resources:.  Join our online community at  Sanctuary Collective Community    If you want to support the Patreon and help keep the podcast up and running, you can learn more and pledge your support at patreon.com/queertheology   This transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors or omissions. (9s): Welcome to the Queer Theology Podcast. I’m Brian G Murphy. And I’m father Shannon, T l Kearns. We’re the co-founders of Queer Theology dot com and your hosts from Genesis, revelation. The Bible declares good news to LGBTQ plus people, and we want to show you how Tuning each week on Sunday for conversations about Christianity, queerness and transness, and how they can enrich one another. We’re glad you’re here. Hello and happy third week of Pride. It kind of feels like advent, where you’re like lighting the candles every, every Sunday of Advent, like marking, marking the weekends of, of pride. And I know in different parts of the country, not everyone or the world, not everyone celebrates Pride month in June, so people do it in August, September, October, but I, I know lots of people around the world are, are celebrating pride this month. (55s): And so it’s, it does feel kind of cool that like every weekend as it goes on, like somewhere in the world it is, it’s pride somewhere. It’s sort of like a, a pride is sort of rolling across the world. And so there’s, there’s something, I dunno, mystical, magical, but feeling connected to, to queer folks everywhere. And so keeping with a Pride month theme a few days ago inside of our online community Sanctuary Collective, one of the members posed a question. So the community that sparked some really interesting discussion in the comments there. And so we thought that we would sh bring that to y’all for today’s podcast episode. So Hannah, inside of Sanctuary Collective was asking about how churches can show up at Pride. Her church for the first time ever was going to be active in three different pride events they were doing, being a part of services and being the table, being in a table at the Pride in the Park celebration. (1m 44s): And so she was asking, what are people’s experiences with churches and pride activities and how do, how do each person’s, each member’s church do to help with pride? And how do you make it more than just a token or a show of support? And what would we like to see churches do that would better enrich pride as queer people in general and as as queer Christians in particular. So there’s a lot of like, there’s a lot of fun discussions, the comments there. I know that Shay, you And I have both been involved in churches that have been in, been at, have, have had active, have had active presences at Pride. We’ve also been on like the receiving and we’ve just been at Pride and seen churches show up sometimes in better and worse ways. (2m 24s): And so like as you think about churches and religious groups in general at Pride, let’s like start with high guiding principles and then like maybe like work down into some like nitty gritty specific suggestions. So what are some like guiding principles for religious congregations or religious groups at LBT LGBTQ pride events or during Pride events? Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I think, I think a couple of, like, really, I, I have so many like tactical nitty and gritty thoughts, and so I’m trying to, trying to keep it really high level. You know, I, I think the first thing is to make sure that your church is there via invitation. (3m 7s): Meaning that whatever your presence is, that you are being led by queer and trans folks in your community. So like, if you have queer and trans folks in your congregation, make sure that you are showing up in a way that like is led by and feels good to those folks. And if you don’t have any queer and trans folks in your congregation, then I might ask you to consider why you are showing up at Pride and what that means and what that looks like. And you know, how you might, that, that probably might not be the best way for you to begin to engage with the queer and trans community that you might have some work to do before showing up at Pride. (3m 48s): The other thing that I would say really high level is like making sure that your presence is centering the queer and trans community and not centering you. So I, we have seen, I’m gonna say it again, I feel like I say it every year, but like, do not show up to pride and apologize on behalf of Christians. Like, it’s not helpful, it centers you and your feelings. It, it’s like, it may feel meaningful in the moment, but like, it’s not actually meaningful change or practice. So I, I just like, stop doing that. It’s, it’s gross and it’s icky. (4m 28s): And so I would say that like a message to, on a positive note, like to show up with is, you know, centering the fact that like queer and trans folks are beloved of God. Like, that is a message that you can center, you can talk about, you know, what your church is doing on behalf of, and queer and trans folks and how you are like fighting for queer and trans rights. Like, I think that’s another really great thing to do. I think lots and lots of folks tack and all are welcome here at our congregation logo on their sign or whatever. And I just, so I would encourage you to be like, how, how might we go even deeper into this practice? (5m 14s): Maybe you show up and you say like, what have we learned from queer and trans folks? How have queer and trans folks like deepened our our sense of ourselves and and impacted our community? Like, those are all things I think to highlight. And, and, and then the other, like, this is both a a little bit of a tactical thing, but also a big picture thing like show up looking your best. I just, I’ve seen a lot of churches come to pride and have just the crappiest display and church stands and like, this is the, this is the time to put a little bit of money. (5m 55s): And I put a little bit of thought and get some of the artists in your congregation involved and like do something that’s pretty, because like it’s pride and queer folks are, you know, not to dive into stereotypes, but lots of queer folks are very artistic. And when you show up with your wrinkly tablecloth that has bad coloring, it just makes you look bad. So yeah, show up, show up and show out for pride. Yeah, I think that there’s like the, the sort of emotional core of there also is that like, we don’t want to feel like an afterthought or that you sort of like threw something together. Right? Yeah. I think some high level suggestions for me is like, how can you lead with like service rather than, and support rather than like recruitment, right? (6m 45s): If you’re like, I would not say that you’re like going Tory to try to like recruit new LGBT members to come to your like, awesome church that’s like, so inclusive, like that, like might be true, but like lots of queer folks don’t wanna engage in religion at all. Or Christianity in particular. Like that’s not why they’re there. Some pe some folks are. And so like, it’s not that like the people who want to, who wanna come to your church will see you and and find you because of that, but like recruitment should not be your primary goal being of service and showing, showing support should be of your primary goal. So along though, like with that, are there like tangible things that you can do to support queer people or pride in general? (7m 25s): My, the church that I was a member of for many, many years in New York City, it was right along the, the parade or March route on Fifth Avenue. And so rather than marching the parade ourselves, we would set up water tables and hand out water to the marchers. It was like maybe halfway along the route, it gets hot in the summer. And so it was like this like very tangible act of service that we were doing for the marchers of giving out cups of water. Now, of course, like some people were like, oh my God, this is a church doing it. Like, that’s so cool. That’s so awesome. I love that there’s a church here. And some people I’m sure came to the church because of seeing us out there, but like that wasn’t the primary reason why we were there. And it, we also weren’t like out there with signs that say like, this church like loves you or like, we’re sorry or like, come to our awesome church, right? (8m 12s): It was just sort of like, we’re a church and we’re like led to do this. And so here we are. It was very sort of like, matter of fact, if you have services, like make sure that you’re like inviting queer and trans folks to speak at those services, to have a few organize like book talks or workshops, like plan to maybe hire a a queer trans speaker or two, and then also like use pride month to make plans for the rest of the year. You know, Shannon, you were saying earlier, like if you don’t have queer or trans people at your church to, to take the lead, like that might be a moment of introspection for why. And so like, it might be that you can sort of like use Pride month to sort of like as an assessment for where your shortcomings are and how you can do better all year round. (8m 60s): So those are some high level suggestions that I would share. Well, I also wanna add, you know, a as you think about being of service, you know, I I I also think, you know, there are always protestors at Pride and so like how might your congregants your straight and cis congregants show up and be a barrier, you know, helping to wall off protesters. You know, I, I think about the folks that that showed up for Matthew Shepherd’s funeral with, you know, the giant angel costumes and they, like, they didn’t engage with the protestors, they weren’t yelling back, they weren’t, they just blocked them from view and thereby, you know, rendered them ineffective. (9m 43s): And so that, that’s, that’s another thing that you could be doing that is like a tangible act of service to the community that like centers the experience of, of queer and trans folks. And I think that that’s something that could be really powerful. Yeah, And I would also add, like, as you’re thinking about service and support to like, remember that like the queer community and Christians aren’t like two separate groups that queer Christians exist, that the, that the divine is already moving amongst queer people, even queer people who don’t identify as Christian, right? And so it’s not like on behalf of all of Christian Christians, like, we have to do this like for queer people. And so like if you can also find places that sort of acknowledge the intersections that already exist and like in sort of a very queer and Christian way, sort of like blurring those boundaries right between these two groups and saying like, what does it look like if to sort of like, you know, act in solidarity if we’re, if for those of us who are straight cisgendered, like to act in solidarity and to not necessarily, like sometimes it isn’t important just to say that I’m a straight ally, but sometimes it’s important to just sort of like show up just to show up as a person or as a Christian and sort of, it doesn’t, you don’t have to necessarily like make a point that you’re straight and or a church and or Christian. (10m 58s): Yeah. Yeah. And I think along those lines, like there also might just be benefit for churches to show up at events around pride, right? Like maybe, maybe you’re not in a place where a table is what you should be doing. Like maybe what you should be doing is walking through the pride fairgrounds and like finding out about all of the organizations that are working in your community and asking them what they need and how your church can support and show up and help them. You know, maybe you are going around and making sure that you sign all of the petitions or donate to the organizations that are desperate for funding, right? Like there are lots of ways that you can center queer and trans folks and be useful and helpful without having your own table or just simply inviting people to, to your events and, and your congregation. (11m 53s): Oh my God, I love that idea. Like imagine like organizing and like organizing a group of people, like making, making a kind of like an official event that you plan, you like reach out to people and you plan like we’re gonna like get together in groups of four or five and sort of like roam around and say hello to people. Pick up information, like buy some cool stuff, like make some donations, sign petition and like maybe you’re, maybe you have a big enough church that you can have like multiple pods of people running around. I think that that could be like a really cool impact. Well, and that could be the launching point off to like plan for the rest of your year too, right? Of like, yeah, what are, what are the groups that we learned about at Pride that we want to highlight in our worship services or in our bulletin that we wanna make the, the recipients of our monthly community giving that we want to engage with more and like build a relationship with and, and make that ongoing, right? (12m 46s): Like this is, that can be the start of of building those connections and making sure that you’re actually actively involved in your community. Yeah. I’m thinking also, And I think you touched upon this of like there are probably groups out there that need places to meet for free or for very cheap. And so like, can you open up your building to like the transport group or to a local like, you know, queer arts organization that is, you know, struggling to stay out, stay, stay, stay active and, and making a plan for bringing in people year round. So it’s not just like, oh, we have like queer and trans people talk during pride month, but like, okay, cool, so make sure, you know, in June that like, oh, we should have someone talk in August or September or January. (13m 31s): Also, it’s not just only that you don’t limit it to to to pride month. Yeah. And then I think also like making sure, like it’s the, I think this is a good, i a good time of year, like to do sort of like, and you should really start this process sooner. So sorry that this episode didn’t come out in like April instead of June, right? But like, using, using Pride as sort of like a, a, an annual check-in sort of like self-accountability moment of like, is our church actually safe and welcoming and accessible and inclusive of LGBTQ people? And like, just because you check it off one year, like sometimes a like cultures shift or buildings change, the policies like just sort of also change or like the cultural around us changes and, and, and what used to be an accepted norm in the queer community and no longer is, and so you wanna just like make sure that you’re staying current. (14m 25s): And so doing an audit of things like language on your website, photos on your website, the types of programs that you have and what they’re named and how you talk about them. And especially like if you have gendered programs, do they need to be gendered? Why are they gendered? How do you talk about their gender to nature? So I talk about mentioned bathrooms, bathrooms, absolutely. Like if, if you have a, a welcoming And I and message somewhere, like on a sign or on a pamphlet or in the church bulletin or on your website, what does that say? How are people able to like, share and have their pronouns respected? Do you have greeters that have been trained in sensitivity around names and gender and directing people to bathrooms appropriately and not making assumptions about all that sort of stuff? (15m 12s): And, and some of these things, right? Like, like any person who controls the website can slap a pride flag on the bottom of the website, right? Or update the language. But some of this is gonna be or require some like systemic changes or some like ongoing work. Like if you have volunteer greeters, you’re going to constantly be needing to like train and update that training. And as you welcome new volunteer greeters to the team to make sure that they know about asking people for their names, not making assumptions about pronouns, being sensitive to language, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So that like, because you could have a really welcoming church environment and then three new greeters come on six months later and, and suddenly the whole vibe is different when a queer person or a trans person walks in the door. (15m 58s): And so, and, and by no one’s like, and that’s not like an intentional action even that happens that’s just sort of like, this is a process that you kind of have to always be like vigilant about because it’s not, it’s not welcome. And inclusion is not a passive action. It’s an active choice. Yeah. And I also think about like looking at your youth programming and making sure that you’re, you’re making space for gender fluid and gender non-conforming toddlers and young people and kids. And also making sure that you are being aware that you might have poly parents and same gender parents and making sure that all of your signup forms actually have a place to acknowledges the reality of people’s families. (16m 45s): I I think that we often do inclusive work around adults and forget our families and forget our kids. And so making sure that that that is also part of the work is, is really, really important. And I loved what you said about an audit, right? I, I can’t tell you how many churches I’ve worked at and interacted with who are very proud of like, when they became LGBTQ plus affirming, like whenever they took the official vote, whatever it is in that denomination reconciling in Christ or more light or et cetera, et cetera. Yeah. But when you ask like, okay, and then when’s the last time that you’ve had a training for your congregation about language or issues facing the queer community? (17m 32s): And it’s like, not since they took that vote. It’s like, okay, yeah. Then you might, you might wanna rethink that and, and get that Yeah. You know, back on your calendar. I think it’s, ’cause like you said, things shift and it’s important that we’re staying up to date. Yeah. And I’m thinking about like how you, you can incorporate queerness in a way that isn’t about, like, that’s not always about talking just about like what it means to be queer or that someone is queer, right? So like, yes. Like sometimes these like sensitive training trainings are important. Like, and it can’t, it, I don’t think it should, should stop there. Like how can you have like film screenings not just about like before the Bible tells me so, or that like 19 whatever documentary about the translation about homosexuality in the Bible, but like a TV episode discussion of like the TV show pose or reading, reading romance or sci-fi or like speculative fiction or whatever that by queer authors having like going to a queer dance show. (18m 34s): Like it being sort of like broader than having queer people that are talking about not just like what the Bible says about homosexuality, but having queer people talk about liberation and good news and the gospel and the reconciliation of all things, or interfaith dialogue or like, it doesn’t always have to be like the queer person talks about defining queer terms, so, right. Because I think like we all have more to share than just that. And so the more that you incorporate it in sort of like really nuanced and organic ways all year long, but especially in pride month. So think, think multimedia lee and think multidisciplinary and think of sort of a di diversity of topics, not just sort of like LGBTQ and the Bible. (19m 16s): Yeah. And I think that really also fits in with what you said earlier about like examining the reasons that you’re going to pride in the first place to bring it back to pride of like, you know, yeah, this isn’t necessarily, or just about getting more people to come to your congregation. And it’s like, yeah, it’s really thinking about like, what does it look like for us to be a queer and trans affirming, welcoming, inclusive space? And like, why, why are we showing up at Pride? Like what, what are we hoping to get out of this experience? And also like, how are we hoping to engage with this, this experience? Yeah. I think that that is really, really important. And, and then to be really intentional about like, okay, this is back to some nitty gritty taxes of like, if you have a table at Pride, like what is your messaging? (20m 4s): How are you inviting the community to come talk to you? How are you training your volunteers that are sitting at the booth about like, how to interface well with the queer and trans community? What are you giving away? What is, you know, like what is on your postcards, et cetera, et cetera. And just really being intentional and thoughtful about that. I’ll also say like, this is again, just a really tactical thing, but the amount of churches that give swag away, but then like, don’t have anything, any contact information on that is like, just, just also be smart about the fact that you’re spending money to get stuff made. (20m 46s): So like, I don’t know, maybe have your website on it. And this is not just churches I’ve seen do this. There was a, a huge, it was a bank in Minneapolis that printed lip balms one year with their company logo, but not their company name or website. They spent thousands of dollars on this and like gave them away. And like, no one has any idea, you get home with a bag of swag, you don’t know where any of that stuff comes from. Yeah. So like, again, like I, I think the thought behind that was useful. Like, let’s use something different and do this kind of like, cool, it wasn’t like a chapstick it was like a, a round lip balm thing, like a really cool idea, but then yeah, no follow up. (21m 32s): And so yeah, thinking too about like your congregation too, of like, if you’re gonna give stuff away, what is your plan to follow up with people who might reach out? And, and also realizing that like pride is one touch that you have with your community and it might take multiple, multiple, multiple touches before people actually think of you and your congregation as a safe space. Or actually think of your, your church as a place that they might wanna show up. And so like yeah. Also don’t put all of your eggs in the Pride basket and be like, well, you know, we checked off, we checked off our pride table and like, I don’t know, gay people still aren’t coming to our church and so we must just not be cool enough or whatever. (22m 21s): Right? Like, be be, yeah. Also have a realistic view of what it looks like to build community, not just like Yeah. With queer and trans people, but like with your community. Yeah. Yep, yep, yep. So if you wanna have conversations about this and other topics, how to make your churches safe and inclusive for LGBTQ people, what that looks like on just like all the intersections of queerness and spirituality and faith. I’m coming to Sanctuary Collective. We would love to have you with the edge.com/community. The Queer Theology podcast is just one of many things that we do at Queer Theology dot com, which provides resources, community, and inspiration for LGBTQ Christians and straight cisgender supporters. (23m 1s): To dive into more of the action, visit us at Queer Theology dot com. You can also connect with us online on Facebook, Twitter, Tumblr, and Instagram. We’ll see you next week. The post Tips for Churches at Pride appeared first on Queer Theology.

Communities can be complex. We delve into the complexities of relationships, the nature of goodness, and the challenges of community dynamics. We explore the idea of labeling people as “good” or “bad,” and emphasize the importance of understanding inherent goodness and the health of individuals. We also touch on the necessity of boundaries within communities and the role of compassion in navigating difficult relationships. Ultimately, we are advocates for a nuanced approach to community building and self-reflection, and encourage y’all to embrace the complexities of human interactions.   Takeaways The distinction between good and bad people is not helpful. Everyone imagines themselves as the good person in their narrative. Understanding inherent goodness can help navigate complex relationships. Communities should create spaces for health and healing. Boundaries are essential for maintaining healthy relationships. It’s important to differentiate between beliefs and actions in community dynamics. Compassion for others can coexist with the need for boundaries. Self-reflection is crucial in understanding our impact on others. Navigating relationships with family can be particularly complex. Embracing the gray areas of life can lead to healthier communities.   Chapters (00:00) Exploring Relationships and Polarization (07:00) Understanding Goodness and Health (13:57) Navigating Community and Boundaries (20:51) Compassion and Complexity in Relationships   Resources:.  Join the Queerness Everyday Challenge Join our online community at  Sanctuary Collective Community    If you want to support the Patreon and help keep the podcast up and running, you can learn more and pledge your support at patreon.com/queertheology   This transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors or omissions. (9s): Welcome to the Queer Theology Podcast. I’m Brian G Murphy. And I’m father Shannon, T l Kearns. We’re the co-founders of Queer Theology dot com and your hosts from Genesis, revelation. The Bible declares good news to LGBTQ plus people, and we want to show you how Tuning each week on Sunday for conversations about Christianity, queerness and transness, and how they can enrich one another. We’re glad you’re here. Welcome back to the Queer Theology Podcast. We’re excited to join you today for another conversation. In one of those kind of weird synchronicity moments, both Brian And I had similar notes of things that were on our mind that, that we wanted to talk about. And so we’re gonna, we’re gonna talk through this idea, and one of the things that I’ve been thinking a lot about lately, I’ve been hanging out with a lot of folks who normally I wouldn’t hang out with and have been kind of thrown into a relationship with them, and it’s causing me to like really challenge a lot of my thinking And I, some of my own biases and, and preconceived notions about like, I don’t know, for lack of a, of a better term, like quote unquote good people and bad people. (1m 21s): And, And I think that, like, I, I don’t know, as I look at the world, I see like so much Polarization, right? And I think especially in online communities, but not just online communities, there’s a, there’s a lot of impulse to, to name people as good or bad or right or wrong, or like, these are my people and those are not my people. And, and I’ve just been in these, in these situations with people and forming relationships with people that are like complicating that notion of, of quote unquote good people and bad people or problematic people and whatever the opposite of problematic people is. (2m 3s): Yeah. Yeah. And then at the same time, I’ve been reading this book called Cherished Belonging by Father Gregory Boyle. He’s the founder of Homeboy Industries, which is the largest gang intervention program in the world. And it’s this book that’s all about seeing all people, including ourselves as like inherently good and as good just as we are. And so I, I’m gonna maybe start us off with a quote and then we’ll, we’ll launch into this Brian and see, see what resonates with you. So he has this, this quote where he says, he’s talking about like people holding negative views or, or views that we would consider negative. (2m 47s): He said they hold this belief not because they’re cruel, but because they are strangers to themselves. That is not a value judgment, but a health assessment for nothing can touch anyone’s goodness, not even holding such a view. Goodness and belonging remain intact no matter what unhealthy notion we find ourselves clinging to. And I read that quote and had to like, put the book down for a little bit and kind of grapple, grapple with my own feelings about it. And so I’m wondering how, how that, how that quote strikes you and, and what, what comes up for you in these, these ideas? Yeah. I mean, I have for a long time now felt like the distinction of good people versus bad people is like not a helpful one for like two reasons. (3m 36s): One is that like everyone imagines themselves to be the good people. And So just like practically speaking, it’s like not a useful paradigm because like there’s like not a universally agreed upon definition of good people and bad people. And so like we all, we’re all someone else’s bad person, right? But also, like, even for the people that I would consider like bad people or doing harmful things or people that frustrate me or that I disagree with or whatever, it might be problematic, like doing things that are problematic, I think. And I think this comes from sort of like a moral ethical, perhaps like a religious conviction that like we’re all good people and that, or maybe we’re just neutral people. (4m 21s): I don’t know, we’re all like, like we’re good or neutral and that like we can do things that harm, right? And so it’s actually more useful to be like, this thing that you are doing or they’re doing has this effect and that effect causes harm or like brings healing, right? Because I think like two things happen if it’s you. Like when you label someone as like a bad person or a good person, it’s like if they’re a bad person, then like they’re irredeemable and they’re, and if you’re a good person, I’ve just like seen it be used as like an excuse to excuse shitty behavior because it’s like, well, I’m a good person, so therefore like the harmful things that I’ve done don’t count or something. (5m 8s): But so that, so like I, that’s the sort of backdrop, and then when you, that particular quote, yeah, I mean, I think that I like intellectually agree with it. And also I also had a catch in Mia sort of like, well, it just Like, is it ex is there like, like is there an excusing happening, right? Where it’s like, because I I of, of this bad behavior or of this person who’s causing harm, like it’s not that they’re cruel, it’s that they’re, And I now, I forget the exact quote, but like, no, they’re, they’re there are stranger to themselves, right? And that like flies in the face of like, I think a, a meme that folks often, I, I’ve been seeing a lot like a, a verbal meme that I’ve even said that like the cruelty is the point, right? (5m 55s): That like, there’s a certain segment of, I’ll talk about us, the US population of the US political system and also the US like voters. But it seems to, they like seem to delight in the cruelty. Like I think I already include a light evangelical Christians who like, I’m going to have it and you’re going to hell. And I get to sort of like delight in the fact that like, I’m, I, you’re going there and I’m not. And so it, like, I do some, it does, it does strike me as like, no, some people are cruel. And also in the times where I’ve been subjected to like interpersonal cruelty as opposed to like systemic injustice, and I’ve been close enough to that person to really see the full picture, I’m like, And I hadn’t stopped to think about this until we started talking about, about this book and this quote. (6m 49s): I was like, oh, yeah. Like that person is like a stranger to themselves is like deeply uncomfortable. Is afraid. Yeah. And so, like if that’s true about the people that have like harmed me, that I am close enough to sort of like know them three dimensionally, like presumably it’s true about people that I don’t know that well, because it just seems like there’s a, the, the, the pattern here. And so like, how do you hold this tension of like, well, maybe that’s true, but also that doesn’t excuse it, and like, where do you go forward? So that’s sort of all the stuff that sort of bubbles up for me as I hear it, this particular passage. (7m 30s): Yeah. And I think, I think that obviously I gave you a quote and I’ve finished the book, and so like, you know, I think that, that he would agree with you and and also say that like, people who delight and cruelty are not healthy people, right? Like going back to like, it’s not a value judgment, it’s a health assessment. One of the things that, that he talks about a lot in this book is that like, then the job becomes like if people are strangers to themselves, if people are living in this state that is unhealthy, a that doesn’t mean that we can’t have boundaries, right? (8m 10s): He talks often about like that, that there are certain people that are not welcome or he wouldn’t say not welcome, that are, are invited to go get healthy before they come back to homeboy industries, right? Or they are, they’re invited to like go seek help for a while elsewhere before they come back because their behavior is such that they are harming the community. And like that can’t be allowed. And I think that that’s actually a healthier posture than a lot of churches that I’ve seen that are like, But we can’t tell this person that they can’t come because that wouldn’t be a nice thing to do to them. And then meanwhile, right, the person who’s unhealthy and homophobic, spews whatever they want all over the queer folks in the congregation, right? (9m 1s): Like we’ve, we’ve seen that happen over and over again. Yeah. And then the church doesn’t actually do anything to help the person who Right. Is just doing the spewing. Right? It’d be one thing if they were like actually intervening, but they’re like usually not and maybe like don’t have the resources or the bandwidth or the like, expertise to be doing that sort of intervention. Yeah. Yes. But I, but, but his larger point then is I, I think like all about like, what is our role as communities? And, and his big thing is like we as communities need to be creating communities of health and places where people can come back to health and, and Stop being strangers to themselves. (9m 44s): And I think that like, that is even more challenging to, to me than, than thinking about the first part of that quote. ’cause like I can intellectually ascend to everyone’s goodness. I struggle to ascend to the fact that I then need to be in community with them. And so, and, And I, And I think that there’s like, there’s nuance there, right? There’s tension there of like, I don’t think that we need to be in relationship with people who are actively harming us. Yeah. But I also don’t think necessarily that we get to like only be around people who think and believe the exact same way that we do. (10m 26s): Like I don’t think that that is, that leads to a healthy community either. And so like how do we, how do we make those calls of like, of, of how community forms? And I think that there is something for me about like, there are layers to that, right? Like there is a group of people that I allow in my inner most circle who maybe are people who think and believe the same way I do, and they’re the ones that like I’m gonna be most intimate with and most vulnerable, vulnerable with. And then there’s like another layer, right? And then it comes out and it’s like that outer layer might be folks that I am still in community with, and also they don’t get full access to all of my personhood because like, they can’t, they’re not healthy enough to handle it or, or we’re not in that kind of relationship. (11m 23s): I don’t know. That’s a initial thought. Yeah. Yeah. My first impulse went to sort of a similar thing And I was thinking less concentric circles and more just sort of like different contexts. But I think we’re actually saying the same thing. But like, I was thinking I went to Bobby, unsurprisingly, like organizing, right? Where it’s like, well, if we’re talking about like my deepest, most intimate friendships like that, I’m, I’m gonna have like one standard for that. But like, if we’re organizing around food insecurity, like I, it might behoove me to work with people who I don’t know, like maybe think I like queerness is a sin or like, are voting for Republicans or like whatever, like the thing might be that I don’t love as long as we’re able to sort of like come together around this particular common cause and, and sort of sort of being like, like ally, I don’t know if ies is the right word, sort of like partners in a particular thing as opposed to like deep intimate a bride or die align like allies right. (12m 24s): With one another. And I’m also thinking about, like, I think we, before we started recording, we were talking about like binary thinking, like yes, no. And so I also think that there’s an element of sort of querying, blurring the binaries around all of this and coupled with boundaries, right? And so like, like for people that I are in my personal life, maybe that some that, that fall somewhere between the people that I trust most intimately that were very aligned on one extreme and people who are actively harming me, like physically and trying to like literally murder me on the other extreme that like, how do I say like, well, I can do this, but like, not that, or I’m gonna like, as long as you behave like this, we can coexist. (13m 18s): But like, you don’t, if you’re, I know you don’t really affirm queerness, so like I can have surface level conversations with you, but we’re like, not gonna go deeper, but I’ll like stick around enough that if you wanna change your mind, I’m here. But like, you don’t get an invitation to the dinner party until you’ve like righted your right. Righted your ways. And, and yeah. So I think that there’s like, there’s something about different levels of access for different people. And this also gets back to like the rubric not being, are you a good person or are you a bad person? Or like, have you gone and gotten healed? Right? And then you, and then you can come back once you’re fully healed. (13m 58s): Or like, you can only come to my church if you’re like already a perfect ally. Like obviously no, but maybe you like, don’t get to preach at the church if you’re going to preach anti-gay things. Right? Right. Or like, maybe you’re like, you don’t get to be on the board of elders if you like, don’t think that women should be able to be in leadership, but like, if you can sit and listen and have cordial conversation, like Yeah, come on in. Right? Like that’s a different Yeah. Even if you don’t sort of believe the same ways, And I think it’s less about right. Belief, right? But sort of the impact of your actions, which sometimes flows from your beliefs, but sometimes is in contradiction to that. (14m 43s): Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think that’s a really helpful distinction and nuance. And especially when it comes to like the difference between beliefs and actions, especially in religious spaces, right? Where it’s so, because so often we have equated what it means to, I don’t know, I’ll speak from my church, like be a Christian with belief of like, do you believe the right things that kind of, I don’t know, putting it back on action of like, how are you behaving is, is I think sometimes a little bit helpful. And I know that like folks who grew up in conservatism get a little bit twitchy about that because that has also been used as a weapon. (15m 26s): But, but I think it is like in these moments, you know, thinking about how our, how we’re showing up in spaces and how our actions are impacting people can, can be really helpful. And I think that your point about organizing was also really helpful because I think that sometimes, and especially, I don’t know, I’ve seen this a lot in leftist spaces in particular of, of this idea of like, not only do you have to like believe all of the right things about the issue that you’re organizing on, like there’s an ideological purity, right? That almost comes with before you can organize on this thing, before you can be a part of our collective. (16m 9s): Like you have to ascent in the exact way that we need you to ascent. And I, I just don’t think that that is necessarily helpful and especially in like, the times that we’re living in where we’re desperately gonna need like broad coalitions working really, really hard to like, fix the massive problems we’re facing. Like figuring out what are deal breakers for each of us individually. Like who, who can we actually organize with and like, who can’t we organize with is gonna be, I think, important. I don’t know. And I’m, I guess I’m feeling particularly nudged to maybe be a little bit more expansive in who I’m able to and willing to work with in these times because things are so, so important, right? (16m 60s): The issues that we’re organizing on across a wide variety of things are just really, really vital. Yeah. Especially like for you when you’re in a, in a rural republican dominant state and a republic rural area of the state, like, yeah, listen, If I Guy, you’ve gotta like work with what you’ve got. Yeah. Yeah. If I, if I only worked with people that like I fully agreed with, I would literally be working by myself, like alone in my, in my house. Like there would literally be no one else. Yeah. For me, there’s also a balance between, on the flip side, when we’re talking about ourselves there, for me there’s a balance between self-reflection and self-judgment. (17m 44s): And how do I try to be self-reflexive of who I am and how I’m showing up in the world in general, in particular spaces, in particular relationships in any given moment, the actions that I’m like doing or not doing, the impact that I’m having while also being gentle with myself and like holding that judgment lightly while also not using that gentleness as like a get outta the jail card as, as an excuse to get away with shit. Right? Like, I, like, I can’t be like, well I am queer so therefore like I’m a good person, so therefore I can’t possibly be doing harm. (18m 28s): Or like, I read James Cone or I have a black friend, or like, I, like I I work with trans folks. Like therefore, like I can’t, I have like no room to grow, right? And sort of always sort of like being mindful of where my, where like my growing edges and where might I be like the annoying person in the room that someone is having to like, struggle to organize with. ’cause like, I think it’s like, it’s tempting. I know, I know we’ve talked about this in previous episodes, like especially as, as queer people who have had religion and the Bible used against us to then sort of like reverse that and see ourselves as oh, like we’re the oppressed ones and the Bible is good news for us. (19m 14s): Which the Bible is good news for queer people, right? And to see like, it only is a comforting word. And so how do we hold and tension this sort of being comforted, being challenged, like while also I’m, I am, I am all good, but also I can’t, that’s not good enough sometimes. And to like, I can’t let myself off the hook And I can be good And I can still cause like immense harm. And that can all still be true. And as I say that, probably the more harm you’ve caused, the more important it is for you to remember your goodness so that you don’t spiral into like, well I can’t ever do anything right And I might as well just give up. (19m 60s): I’m a terrible person. ’cause like you going to some sort of like pity spiral about an ouch you caused someone doesn’t hurt, help anyone. But sort of like being able to stand and be like, ah, yeah, I, I fucked that up. Whether it’s like in a moment or whether it’s sort of like, oh, like my whole worldview is being challenged And I, the way that I thought things worked aren’t, And I, I maybe I need to to shift a little bit on that. So yeah. That there’s, it feels like, yeah, I’m just challenged by like grace for others. Grace for yourself, grace in a way that isn’t weaponized to excuse, to make, to make like marginalized people, excuse sh shitty behavior grace that isn’t used to let yourself off the hook. (20m 48s): But also that is sort of like, sees that we are all made in the image of God. And so like then what, like what does that mean? I think about that a lot. ’cause I, I like some, I often not always, I often go through the morning morning prayers for in Judaism, and one of the things is like, like for like, for creating me the image of God. And so like every day I’m reminding myself like, I am created in the image of God. I’m created in the image of God, I’m created in the image of God. And then like, what does that, like, what does that, like what does that mean for me? And how do I show up as that? And it’s, I think it’s, it’s, it’s also true for everyone else. So like what does it mean that like, oh, not to get too personal, but like I have a in-law that is like a homophobe and it’s like, what do I do? (21m 40s): Like what does it mean that he’s created an image of God? Right? Like, I don’t wanna be besties with him. He was not invited to my wedding, but like I see him at our niece’s events sometimes and like, so like, how do I, because I don’t wanna not be there for my niece, right? Like, so how do you hold all that intention and like Yeah, yeah. Messy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It is messy. And I think that like, I don’t know, I I think that part of me is, is helped by going back to Boyle’s comment about people not being healthy. And I think that this, you know, I think of a lot about my mom, right? (22m 22s): And, and like I, my relationship with her is, is strained. It is maybe a generous way of, of putting that. But like, I also have a ton of compassion for her because I know how deeply wounded she has been in her life. And I understand very intimately like that the, the construction she has done around her faith is such to keep herself safe from that wounding, right? (23m 2s): Like I, I can see it. And also just because I can see it And I can understand it And I have a lot of compassion for it, doesn’t mean that we are close. Right? And doesn’t mean that like she gets to be in that kind of inner circle. Yeah. It doesn’t make sense. But it has, it has really helped me, I think to have more compassion for her to like, and to, I don’t, I I don’t wanna say forgive, I don’t, I don’t, I don’t know what the, what the word is, but like, to, to be able to, in some ways, like release some Yeah, I was gonna say. (23m 43s): Yeah, I was gonna say release. Yep. Yeah, Because it’s like, I, I can like, I understand it and that understanding has been helpful for me. And I, And I think that like what you’re saying too about it’s important that we, we, we understand our own inherent goodness too, right? Like, especially for those of us that grew up in traditions that like did not affirm our inherent goodness. Like that can be a helpful corrective while also holding that tension of like, And I still screw up and there is still more room to grow and there are places in which I am not charitable And I am not living in to full health And I amm not, you know, in touch with myself And I, and so it, not to like leave it on a murky note, but I do think that there is something here about like being, learning to be comfortable in or dealing with or living in the tension of it all, the nuance of it all, the gray of it, all the, you know, queerness of it all. (24m 47s): I, I think is the, is a move toward health, right? Like, and we’re, yeah. It feels like we need more people willing to live in that space in these days in particular. Yeah. You know, I am, I am to, to, as we wrap up, I, I was not at all thinking about this until just now, but I’m realizing that the, this conversation echoes like a number of conversations that we’ve been having inside of Sanctuary collective with people who are, have complicated relationships with their families that are starting to get back in contact with relatives that they haven’t talked to in a long time, that are starting to put up boundaries with relatives that they have been in, in, in close relationship with for a while that are moving and getting married and getting divorced and leaving communities, starting new communities, figuring out they want out communities, recognizing that the communities they’re part of are harmful and what’s like, what to do with that. (25m 43s): And like, so this is like, these are conversations that we’re like really having on a regular basis inside of Sanctuary Collective. And so if you’re like, I got a messy, I got a messy life sometimes or if things feel complicated, like we would absolutely love to like wrestle alongside of you, inside of Sanctuary Collective, you can find more enjoying at Queer Theology dot com slash community. The Queer Theology podcast is just one of many things that we do at Queer Theology dot com, which provides resources, community, and inspiration for LGBTQ Christians and straight cisgender supporters. To dive into more of the action, visit us at Queer Theology dot com. You can also connect with us online on Facebook, Twitter, Tumblr, and Instagram. We’ll see you next week. The post Complicated Communities appeared first on Queer Theology.

It’s Pride month and we’re sharing some of our thoughts about it in this week’s episode. There are a lot of complexities with Pride Month and we especially want to explore the dual nature of celebration and resistance within the LGBTQ community. With recent funding cuts to arts organizations, the challenges of sustaining movements without corporate support, and the importance of balancing joy with activism, it can seem like there isn’t much to celebrate. But sometimes you have to mix that joy with the hard work and really lean into community engagement.   Takeaways Pride Month embodies both joy and exclusion. Funding cuts to arts organizations threaten queer activism. The nonprofit industrial complex complicates funding for movements. Local and small-scale initiatives are crucial for sustainability. Joy can be a form of resistance against oppression. Celebration and activism can coexist meaningfully. Spirituality provides grounding for activism and community. Historical context enriches our understanding of current movements. Art and community are essential for resilience. Collective joy fuels the fight for justice.   Highlights: (02:25) The Impact of Funding Cuts on Arts and Activism (05:41) The Complexity of Funding Movements (08:02) Balancing Joy and Resistance in Activism (12:45) The Dual Nature of Pride: Celebration vs. Resistance (16:18) Spirituality and Activism: Finding Balance   Resources:.  Join the Queerness Everyday Challenge Join our online community at  Sanctuary Collective Community  If you want to support the Patreon and help keep the podcast up and running, you can learn more and pledge your support at patreon.com/queertheology   This transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors or omissions. Welcome to the Queer Theology Podcast. I’m Brian G Murphy. And I’m father Shannon, T l Kearns. We’re the co-founders of Queer Theology dot com and your hosts from Genesis, revelation. The Bible declares good news to LGBTQ plus people, and we want to show you how Tuning each week on Sunday for conversations about Christianity, queerness and transness, and how they can enrich one another. We’re glad you’re here. All right, y’all. It is June 1st. It is the first day of L LGBTQ Pride Month, and there’s a lot going on in the world and with pride and in our little brains, and I’m sure in your brains and in your hearts, and we, as we were getting ready to record, we just we’re like noticing that there are like lots of truths that are all true at the same time. 00:00:54 That like, for many of us, pride month is a time of joy and Celebration and inclusion and sort of like festivities and partying. It’s also true that for many of us, pride is a place where we have felt excluded or unsafe or unseen for. It’s also true that like corporations have been sort of throwing money at Pride to sort of use the LGB, the LGBTQ community as consumers and to sort of get us to buy their business. And maybe there’s this sort of pinkwashing and corporate washing of pride that’s like not great. It’s also true that lots of corporations pulling out all their support from L-G-B-T-Q people and organizations is not a great sign. 00:01:38 It’s also true that Pride got its start over 50 years ago as a remembrance of the Stonewall Rebellion uprising. It’s a protest march. So there’s like this history of, of resistance that is part of pride. It’s also true that pride oftentimes features artists and musicians and creative types of all sorts that like come together to create beautiful political soothing, subversive, entertaining art. And that was all sort of like swirling around in our heads as we’re like getting ready to head into pride month and thinking about like, what does Pride Month mean now this year in 2025 with everything we’ve got going on in our local lives, in the USA globally with the arts, with the police, with the government, with immigration, like, it all just feels like so like ripe. 00:02:38 And so we’re, we don’t have an outline today. We’re just gonna dive in. And so, so sheiks we’re like, where’s your like, head out? Like what are you excited about? Worried about holding onto, like as we head into Pride month? Yeah, yeah. You know, as you were talking about artists, I, I was thinking a lot about all of the cancellation of the NEA grants, which happened, you know, yeah, a little, little close to a month ago as, as this is coming out, but which as we’re recording is very fresh. I’m on the board of an arts organization that lost their funding. 00:03:20 Another organization that has been a huge support to me in the past lost their funding two weeks before the conference that it was supposed to fund began. And it’s just like, you know, this is money that was promised to these organizations. So they planned their budgets around it and they’ve been doing their programming and now, you know, all of that is in question. And lots and lots of these organizations are, are supporting queer and trans folks. Some of them are specifically and explicitly queer and trans led. And so, you know, that’s, that’s really concerning. And, and there’s this kind of narrative, I think in some of these organizations of like, well, donors will step up and, and fill that gap. 00:04:09 And, and for many of these organizations, I do think that that is true. That, right? Like individual donors will step up and and close the gap. And also that’s complicated, right? Because what if you’re a scrappy queer tramp organization that doesn’t have donors that can step up and write thousands upon thousands of dollar checks, like, then what do you do? And I think that that is always the complicated nature of philanthropy. Yeah. And it’s also right, the complicated nature of grant making where we can see a granting organizations quote unquote priorities change in this case with a message that was clearly written by AI and is incomprehensible and coming from the government. 00:04:57 But, you know, we’ve seen this in, in other places in the, in the past even with corporate sponsorships where for a long time, target, for instance, really cared about education and then Target stopped caring about education and all of these organizations like went sideways. Anyway. So I thinking about all of that, but it, it, the thing that is underneath all of that is like, how do we fund the movements that allow us to do the things that a, make life worth living? Like I think that art and artists are what, what make life interesting, but also like how do we fund, for lack of a better word, the revolution, right? 00:05:37 And it’s, and it’s not, it, it’s not target, right? Target, target, the revolution will not be funded by Target and Bezos and et cetera, et cetera. So like thinking through, which Also feels like a very, sorry, which also feels like a very Christian early Christian question, right? Of like, yes, this like scrappy early church movement. I’m thinking about like doing sort of revolutionary subversive work and like how do, like how do they keep it going and fund the people who are sort of not working at fisherman because they’re working, doing, being community organizers. Yeah. Which, you know, as, and as you were talking about, right? I was also thinking about like the early Christian movement and how it did start as a protest movement and how that too, in, in many ways, like pride got commodified and became corporately funded and became organized in a way that Right, in some ways has been really helpful and useful and in other ways has really like taken, taken the wind out of the sails of the movement. 00:06:40 And I think that that is, that’s so complex and it’s so complicated, right? Because there, there are ways in which churches as organizations or as denominations have been able to do really cool things because they banded together and they funded really cool things, right? Like organizations that have built affordable housing or created food pantries or whatever. And also like that is complex as well. I, I’ve been thinking a lot. I, I read Dean Spade has this really great small book on mutual aid, and one of the things that I really appreciated in that book is that he talks a lot about how, he talks a lot about like how in some ways dangerous the nonprofit industrial complex is. 00:07:33 But his big takeaway is that it, we have to be thinking more small and more locally. And I think that that is one of the things that is, that is really on my mind and heart as we think about all of this, right? Like Ashley was saying the other day, like, yeah, we’re gonna need a lot more artists who can just like, create and make things where they are and it’ll be scrappy and it’ll be messy and it’ll be in found spaces. And and a friend of ours at the table was like, yeah, and, and no one’s gonna get paid for that. Like, we’re going backwards. And it’s like, yeah, you know what, probably yes. And that is also I think, yeah, organizing, right? 00:08:15 Like the, the professionalization of everything where we have to get paid to do, to show up is like, I think a problem. And one of the, the things that we’re really gonna have to like figure out moving forward. So those are some of my initial messy thoughts. Does that spark anything for you? Yeah, I think all of that sparks something in me, you know, And I I I think to get a little personal, like we feel that tension here at this work we do@cardiology.com, right? Where it’s like The time that we spend on this project is like time that we can’t be spending, like earning a living elsewhere, but also, like, we also can’t always count on or trust or expect to be able to earn like a full living from this work. 00:09:03 And so we’re constantly working multiple jobs in addition to the work that we do here to make ends meet. And so sort of like scrapping it together And I would like, I would love for this to be like my day job, right? Like that would be Yeah, fantastic. Like, and also it’s like not currently, And I, you can also see like the, the, the, the times in which we’re like more supported by the people who listen to the podcast or consume our resources or use our resources at their churches or buy our books or whatever. Like the more, the more like the more we’re able, the more time we’re then able to spend here doing this work. And in the times where for whatever reasons, like we get less support from the community that, that, that’s okay. 00:09:46 There’s like no judgment on that, but like it also then means we have to spend more time doing other types of work, which then like pulls us away from this work. And so there’s this sort of like, like, yes. And like, it’s like maybe like not a bad thing, quote unquote, like that not everything is professionalized. Like, and also it does mean there’s just like less time to do stuff and sometimes like less quality or to, to your point, like less reach. Like there is something about like an economy of scale that like bigger organizations or groups of people, collectives are able to accomplish more sometimes than because there’s just like less redundancies. It’s like, how do you That’s true. But also we, we don’t wanna dehumanize everything and make it like the most efficient thing possible Right. 00:10:28 And gonna be responsive to local needs. So I like, so that’s sort of like, yeah. So I’m just like, I, yeah, I feel all of that. And I, And I feel like that that is also like attention with clergy too, right? There there is, yeah. There was this push for a while of like, well, clergy shouldn’t be making their money from the church because if they are being paid by the church, A they like can’t be prophetic in the way that they can if like, like they weren’t relying on the church for their income or like b churches could do more if they weren’t having to pay insurance and retirement packages and full-time, you know, salaries for clergy. Yeah. But then the, the trade off of that is like, yes, but then if your pastor is working a nine to five and you have an emergency, they can’t just like leave their nine to five to come be at the hospital with you. 00:11:17 Right? Yeah. Or like if they have to work, you know, Sunday and prep a sermon and they also have to work 40 hours a week, like you’re gonna get the sermon that they can write in their evenings and weekends. Right? Like it’s just a different Yeah. Type of thing. And that I, I think for some people that works, for some communities that work, but I think also like to your point about scale, like that doesn’t work for everyone and it, and, and or the people whom it does work for, like have they, they have other privileges, right? Like it can’t probably work for the mom of three kids, especially not for a single mom of three kids, right? 00:12:03 It’s probably not gonna work for the trans person with no family support, right? Like it’s, we expect that there will be other things in place and that just gets really, really complicated. Yeah. It just, it gets to it like when art or ministry like isn’t funded, it just makes it so that rich people and people with like generational wealth are the ones that have the easiest time at doing those things. And so then, then also then like informs the art that gets created in the ministries that get started and like, you know, we see the terrible, terrible evangelicals are able to like run Super Bowl ads, right? 00:12:44 And yeah, and like the, the like trans lifeline is not because like of funding priorities, right? So that’s all. Yep, yep, yep, yep. I’m also just like sort of thinking about like the tension between like pride as like resistance and pride as Celebration. And I don’t think that they actually, like those two things are like necessarily opposites. Yeah. I think that especially for queer people, I think like queer, like one of the beauties of queerness right? Is that we sort of like, we turn like oppression into camp and we like dance and we like laugh at like as we organize and resist and like the Celebration sometimes Celebration I think like can also be a form of resistance in and of itself to say like, yeah, like life is hard. 00:13:40 Like, and also you’re like, not gonna steal my joy. And, And I, And I think like, so I think it comes down to like, a lot of it is like intentionality, right? Because like you can sort of have like a frivolous celebratory, let’s all just get drunk all month long go to brunches and this amazing, right? And like, it that’s like, not necessarily like resistible, but like if you can sort of like celebrate, keep your eyes wide open at, at, at the horrors that we’re sort of living through. Like, and also choose not to, not to turn away from that and hide from that, but just sort of like to dance in defiance of that feels important. And then also like how do you like organize such that like, it’s not just Celebration that you’re also like taking it into action outside of the dance floor. 00:14:29 I’m like thinking about like, right, right now the scene, I think it was in a movie, but like in the like eighties I presume, or like maybe the nineties, like a gay men health crisis would host like these like big fundraisers to like support people living with hiv aids like in the, like the gay clubs, the gay bars. And so places where like they used to just sort of like drink and dance and had night away they were still drinking and dancing the night away, but now they were raising money to get food or medication or they were like organizing information sessions outta these like same like dance halls and gay bars. And so like, it feels like, like I want it to be like a yes and of like, I don’t, it doesn’t, if we, if we like, if we stop, if we erase all of the joy from our lives, there’s like no point in living and they’ve already won. 00:15:17 Right. And also like if we, if we just sort of tune out and try and drown our sorrows and get drunk and only dance the night away, like things will just continue to get worse for us until we all die. And so like, we, like it can’t be either of those extremes. And so I’m, I’m thinking a lot about like, how do I cultivate joy while like that that turns into like resilience that like fuels the resistance as opposed to like either burning myself out with hardness and sadness or just sort of like sticking my head in the sand. And so like I’m, that’s sort of like the energy that I’m trying to bring into pride 2025 of like dance in the streets and like march in the streets and like throw dinner parties with your friends and also like host mutual aid, like groups with your friends and get to know your neighbors so that you can like bring them food when they need them. 00:16:11 And also like, so you can talk to ’em about local citywide elections, you know, it’s, it’s like, it’s all, it feels all swirling together and sometimes like easier said than done. Yeah. It it that I feel like we also talked about those exact same things when we talked about worship and, and ritual, right? That like, it’s the same thing of like if you’re, if your worship and your engagement with spiritual practice is just about comfort and safety and warmth, then like you’re missing something really, really crucial. But also if it’s always about like ex extend yourself and go, go, go and resistance and resistance and resistance, like you, you, that’s not like not sustainable for the long term. 00:16:55 You need some fuel there. And so that there, there’s something in the, like in the mix of being able to find comfort and peace and safety and grounding in your spiritual practice. That is the thing that like connects you to the world and inspires you to go out and to do things and take, engage in justice work. And so like, you know, I think that these connections, like all of the connections that we talk about in queerness, like this is, I think this is also like why faith? Why this, this intersection between faith and queerness is like, yeah, so important and so special because like it gives us a grounding to talk about these things and, and it gives us an even an even deeper history to tap into right there, there is a history in both of, in both of these spaces, but like we might miss that history and tapping into that history if we’re just thinking about the here and now. 00:17:53 Yeah. And you know, I’m, I was also just struck right now about like, about whether it’s like joy or Celebration or partying, whether it’s pride or whether it’s worship. Like it’s not just like, so that we don’t burn out and are able to like keep doing their work. I think that there’s also like a spiritual element here that that, that you’re keying into, like Christians might call it like the kingdom of God on earth as it is in heaven. Like Jews might call it like the world’s of come Ola Haba, right? Like that like there are these sort of like glimpses of what is like not yet fully here, but like in this moment we could see like how it could be and it like reminds us of like, oh yes, like another way is possible. Like we can do more of this. 00:18:34 Like, this is worth fighting to protect and nurture and kindle because like this little thing that we’re seeing here, whether it’s like, I don’t know, man, like I wish people could go back in time and go to the Philadelphia Transgender Health Conference in like 2011, right? Like, that felt like a vision of a world, of the world to come that was like worth like fighting and protecting, protecting or like a really like, like subversive inspiring like drag show that like makes you see the world in a new way or like a powerful sermon or just like that feeling of community that you feel and you’re like with your like queer chosen family, right? Like over a shared meal. There’s like these like moments where you’re like, oh, like this is, like, this was what, like makes worth life worth living And I want everyone to experience this and how can we sort of like fight for this specific thing and also continue to like, make it bigger and more widespread so that like everyone gets a taste of it. 00:19:28 Amen. The Queer Theology podcast is just one of many things that we do at Queer Theology dot com, which provides resources, community, and inspiration for L-G-B-T-Q Christians and straight cisgender supporters. To dive into more of the action, visit us at Queer Theology dot com. You can also connect with us online on Facebook, Twitter, Tumblr, and Instagram. We’ll see you next week. The post Celebration & Resistance: Let’s Talk About Pride Month! appeared first on Queer Theology.

We’re exploring the multifaceted nature of prayer by reflecting on our personal journeys and our evolving understanding of spirituality. There are so many emotional complexities tied to prayer. It can be powerful and so connective to community when we really look at it. And when you are able to queer prayer, this can help break down boundaries and really let you reimagine what prayer can do.    Takeaways Shannon shares his evolving journey with prayer. Prayer can be a means of personal transformation. The emotional impact of prayer can linger long after beliefs change. Community plays a crucial role in spiritual practices. Collective prayer can create real-world change. The allure of traditional prayer can be comforting but also damaging. Engaging with diverse prayers can expand one’s spiritual practice. It’s important to reflect on the theologies we carry. Building community requires intentional action and vulnerability. It’s never too late to form meaningful connections.   Chapters (03:46) Revisiting Prayer and Theology   (06:35) The Emotional Landscape of Prayer   (09:44) Community and Collective Prayer   (12:36) The Allure and Challenges of Prayer   (15:24) Expanding Notions of Prayer   (18:36) The Power of Shared Experiences   (21:34) Building Community Through Prayer   (24:42) The Role of Action in Spirituality   (27:34) Invitation to Connection and Growth     Resources:.  Join the Queerness Everyday Challenge Join our online community at  Sanctuary Collective Community    If you want to support the Patreon and help keep the podcast up and running, you can learn more and pledge your support at patreon.com/queertheology   This transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors or omissions. Welcome to the Queer Theology Podcast. I’m Brian G Murphy. And I’m father Shannon, T l Kearns. We’re the co-founders of Queer Theology dot com and your hosts from Genesis, revelation, the Bible declare good news to LGBTQ plus people, and we want to show you how tuning Each week on Sunday for conversations about Christianity, queerness and transness, and how they can enrich one another. We’re glad you’re here. Welcome, welcome, welcome back to the Queer Theology Podcast. We are excited to talk about Queering Prayer today. I feel like, I don’t know about you, Brian, but I have had a journey with prayer over the course of my life of different Yeah. Like ways that I believed prayer worked or didn’t work, or how it made me feel or didn’t make me feel. 00:00:56 And I’ve been, I’ve been working with, with some folks lately who have a very different view of prayer than I currently do, but it’s very similar to the view that I grew up with, which is making me like, I don’t know, revisit some, some thoughts on prayer. And so thought this would be interesting. So I, I, I’ll, I’ll start by sharing, you know, like I grew up in a tradition that really believed that prayer worked, and it was everything from like praying that God would make it sunny on the day of our, like church picnic to God would provide a parking spot to, like, prayer would make God forgive us our sins and, and get us into heaven. 00:01:40 And so it was very and Really quickly, like not to be too like pedantic, but like you, I already have questions. Like you said, we believe that prayer worked, right? Like, And I feel like a lot is hanging on and maybe, maybe I’ll get to that, but like I look a lot is hanging on the word worked. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it was, it was this sense of like, you, you prayed and you asked for things and God would do it, but that, and then even when it, like you didn’t get the answer that you wanted, God was still doing something right. It was this very like, twisted logic around. It was Like, God, the answer is he God always answers. It’s just like, yes, no, or not yet. Yeah, exactly. A line I Got and, but I, there was like a, there was both a safety in that right, of like, of feeling like you were heard and believing that God listened to every single prayer. 00:02:33 There was also a sense of like, I don’t know, sometimes whatever the solution was did feel like a miraculous intervention, right? Like I, I’ve heard so many stories of people being like, I needed exactly $500 And I prayed and like I ran into a stranger who offered me $500, right? It like God is, is actively working on our behalf. And so like I, I grew up with that and but also like baked underneath that for me was always the sense of fear that I wasn’t praying right? And not if I was praying too selfishly that God would not only not give me what I wanted but would gimme the opposite. 00:03:19 And like there were times when that happened And I felt like I was being punished because I was like selfish with my prayers, yada, yada, yada. Flash forward a bunch of years to where I was like, prayer doesn’t work like that. We shouldn’t be praying like that. That’s like a bad, that’s bad theology. It’s bad theology of prayer. Like prayer isn’t to get God to change, it’s to get us to change. And that’s, I, I’m, but now I find myself kind of somewhere in the middle, right? Of like, I, I don’t know, like I don’t know entirely what prayer does. I don’t think that like we have to try to like convince God to give us things by begging in prayer. 00:04:03 Like that is definitely not what I believe. But I do think that there’s something about like trying to tap into that which is bigger than us, that helps me like potentially reorient myself to what is already going on in the world. And, and sometimes I think it does like make me aware of things. It makes me pay attention in ways that I might otherwise miss. And then that sometimes feels like God is answering the prayer, right? Like I think that, you know, what’s that? There’s that old joke about a guy who’s like on a house and the yeah, the thing is flooding and a boat comes by and he doesn’t get in the boat and then whatever. 00:04:43 And he finally is like, God, why didn’t you save me? And God’s like, well, I sent you a boat. I sent you a helicopter, right? Like, I sent you all these things and you weren’t paying attention. And I think that there’s like that to me, there’s something to that in prayer. All of that to say that I also then think that like as I’ve, as I’ve gotten more settled in my theology and my thinking, I also see a lot of things as prayer, right? Like there, there like music can be prayer and poetry can be prayer and liturgy is prayer and extemporaneous praying, right? Like just having a conversation with whoever is out there is prayer and, and so is like swearing, right? 00:05:28 Like all of all of these different things, like all of this can be prayer. And so like that too, I, I think has, has led me to a more expansive, And I think that is where like queerness feels like it comes in of like, I can, I can pray and engage bodily in prayer and because I’m queer and trans like that automatically queers and trans is my right. Like all of all On prayer from me. Yeah. There’s like, like a blurring of boundaries and binary shown sort of like what is prayer? Yeah. It also reminds me of that like, you know, I wanna sing that’s, it’s that song. 00:06:08 It’s probably like Michael W. Smith or Jar of Clay. It’s like, like, like breathing out and breathing in before we start again. You know, that song in it’s let us Pray. There’s, if you’re listening and you know what song I’m trying to get at, it’s like pray without ceasing. And, and now when you get to the end, let, let us start again. Like, like it is a, a very conservative Christian song about prayer, but there’s also like, I like, I think that also if what you’re talking about feels like very queer and also it’s like, I do think that, like, I would imagine, I don’t know, I would imagine like Pope Francis also sort of feels like he prays in in times other than just when he’s like on his knees holding his hands talking to God, right? 00:07:01 That like, yeah, yeah. You like, you don’t, like, I think that queerness helps us to sort of like blur boundaries and break down binaries and forces us to reimagine this. Like, and also like, again, this is like what’s so beautiful Queer Theology, I think like everyone can, like everyone can sort of like queer prayer, reimagine prayer. I, I think like you, I’ve had a few phases of relating to prayer. I think like from childhood through, I don’t know, like somewhere around like 16, 18, I definitely had that sort of like there is a person that I call God, he dad, Abba, who is like listening can hear my thoughts. 00:07:41 I don’t even have to speak them out loud, who can like hear my thoughts and will like do or not do or give or not give the things to me, right? Like, I don’t know, sometimes I wanna like ice cream for desert dessert and my parents were like, we don’t have ice cream. Like have a cookie. Like I can have a cookie, but at least my parents for me, like at least there is someone, even if I don’t get what I want, there’s like someone listening. And because I’m a Christian and I’ve accepted Jesus, this person like in general has my back. Even if I like don’t always understand it in the moment. That was like my like v version one of Brian Praise. And then I think like around 16, 70, 18, certainly by the time I was 18 And I went to college as I was like realizing ’cause I was queer and realizing that that wasn’t going away and realizing that I didn’t want it to go away, I sort of like moved into this sort of like, and it coincided with my shift to my understanding of God is for like more agnostic. 00:08:34 Like, I don’t know, like, I don’t know, I don’t know like if there like is quote unquote God in quotes. Like, I don’t know, like if there is a God, if God is listening, I don’t know if God is granting or not grant anything. I just sort of like, I don’t know. And so sometimes I like wouldn’t pray at all or sometimes I would pray and just kind of like hope, like very stereotypically like, God, are you there? It’s me. I’d really like this. Or like, I mean my, in my co like 18th or 22, it was probably a lot of like, I think that it’s okay to be gay and so like that’s why I’m like dating or having sex, but like, if it’s not like I am listening, so like please just let me know and like I’ll, I’ll if I need to. 00:09:14 But there was, I definitely spent a few years being like, I think I’m on the right track, but like, if you want me to stop being gay, like give me a sign, I guess. And then I think like you, I moved into this like version three, which was like there’s no one listening, no one’s granting us anything. It’s just about like, if you pray that God will solve poverty, like inspires you to like give away more of your money or feed the people in your neighborhood or organize for better policies. Like it’s like you alone, like you are praying to God ostensibly, but it’s about changing you individually. And I think now I don’t think that there’s like a conscious entity that is like listening to my words, like on a telephone, right? 00:10:04 And I do think a lot of the change is happening within me, but I also kind of like, you think that like there’s some sort of like tapping into something and like, I don’t know, I don’t really think that there’s like vibrations that I’m tapping into. And if you think that there’s like, like there’s vibes like tap into tap into your vibes, right? But like, so I, I don’t know, like if you were saying it’s just sort of like I’m paying more attention and so I like notice things that I might not not have otherwise noticed or I say yes to things that I might not have otherwise said yes to, or I say no to things that I might not have otherwise said, said no to. I don’t know if it’s a, it like when I go in places that fuel prayerful, whether that is like a religious congregation or whether that’s like a community board meeting or a drag show. 00:10:50 Like I’m surrounded by people who share values or worldviews and so like I’m more likely to then be able to be inspired by them or lean on them or be supported by them. But there does, like now I do feel like there’s something that changes within me, but there’s also something really powerful about praying together and I’m putting all that in quotes, right? Like that could be literally like at a church service or if you’re Christian or like in a minion if you’re Jewish, like saying a sort of traditional prayer. But like it could also be like, I don’t know, like sitting around our Josh’s hospital bed as he was dying and like looking through a scrapbook with our best friends and his parents and like reminiscing like and holding his hand and like that felt in some way prayerful or like, I’ve already used this example, but like being at like a drag show or a gay bar or having sex and like, is that worship or prayer or both? 00:11:51 But like that there’s like something about the other people, this of it all that feels important. I know we were talking about this last week also, but there’s like this sort of like communal element to it that feels important that I really feel like only in the past few years have I connected sort of like the importance of community and like prayerfulness in particular. Yeah. Yeah. And I just, I keep thinking about, you know, going back to my old views of prayer where it’s like you’re asking for what you want and trusting God will give it to you and then, you know, rationalizing whatever answer you get. 00:12:32 Yeah. Like I, I think about both the comfort of that, right? There is a real sense that you’ve got someone on your side and that It’s powerful and that, you know, miracles will happen. But I also just remember the feelings of like, well why did, why did God give that person the $500 that they need and not my family? Or, you know, why did that person get cured of their cancer? Someone from my family didn’t. And like how that has the theological and emotional power to, to like really destroy people, right? 00:13:15 And a real sense of like, especially when it’s coupled with like, well maybe you didn’t pray hard enough or maybe you didn’t pray with the right attitude, or maybe God is trying to teach you a lesson or maybe you were living in sin and that’s why you didn’t get the things that, that you asked for. And I think that like, this is why it’s so, so, so important for us to like really examine the theologies that we carry with us and the beliefs and the ideas that we carry with us, right? Because like that emotional response to prayer lingered in me, in my body for a hell of a lot longer than like the intellectual belief about that type of prayer. 00:13:58 Yeah. And so like, I think that that’s, it’s, it was so important to like do that work and I’m just like, I’m struck by because I’m, I’m hearing people talking about, about prayer in that kind of way, like every day these days. And I’m, I’m just, I’m struck by how the allure is still there, right? Like the allure of that kind of, especially when in moments when like the world is feeling out of control and my life is feeling a little all over the place. Like there’s, there’s a, there can be an impulse to be like, oh, well if I was just back in that space, everything would be clear and safe again. 00:14:42 And I just have to keep reminding myself like, yes, and it’s so, so bad for you. So like, don’t, don’t do that. But, but I do think like, again, it becomes then an invitation to to also say like, what is it about that that was so attractive? And like where, where are the places in me that either I need to like continue to do work of healing so that I don’t need that and or where are the places in that I can like engage in that kind of like, in something that will meet that need or that emotional space in a way that is healthy and good and that like doesn’t take me down bad, terrible theological places that like do damage to my psyche. 00:15:27 And so, and so I think that like, again, this is a, this is a thing you And I have say all the time, like the work doesn’t end right? Like you don’t eventually arrive at healed and whole and yeah. Like there’s no more work to do. And so like I think that this, like, we, we keep coming back to the things and things keep coming up for us. And so it again, like this is an invitation I think for me to like really reflect on what do I mean when I say prayer? What do I think I’m tapping into? What is the practice that is good and life giving and healthy and does lead toward wholeness? And how can I like really engage in that? 00:16:10 And I think that this is why over the last couple of years, probably more like a decade, like I’ve really loved reading, written, written prayers by other people because there is something of, you know, when you talked about praying together, like whatever kind of air quotes we wanna put around that. But there is something about like, if we’re all using, if a bunch of people are like praying the liturgy, even though we’re not in the same room, we’re like still engaged in that practice together. And like we’re, we’re orienting ourselves, especially if we’re praying prayers of justice or for peace. I do think that that like does something in the world, right? 00:16:51 Like if a bunch of people are orienting themselves toward envisioning a more peaceful world, committing to nonviolence or committing to being more loving toward one another like that is gonna make a, an actual physical difference in the world. Yeah. Whether we’re engaged in that practice physically together or like individually on our own. And I think it’s also an invitation to like expand our notions of whose prayers we’re reading, right? Like book of common prayer is great, but I also think that like, there’s a deep power in reading Col Arthur Riley’s Yeah. 00:17:32 Black liturgy’s prayers or prayers from, I, I have this prayer book that was written by someone that I went to union with who like collects prayers and liturgies from all over the world. And like there’s something about reading prayers from like a poor community of people who fish for their, their livelihoods, right? Like from another country that me praying that prayer, even though I have a very different experience, like it orients me in a different way. And I think that there’s a real power in that. And like, this is a, this is a time when I wanna like tap into that more deeply. 00:18:13 Yeah. I keep, I keep thinking about what you said a little while ago about sort of like the emotional response to prayer, right? And like you are intellectually reoriented before maybe you like totally emotionally reoriented and, and so like, you like intellectually didn’t believe that God was like giving that person $500 instead of you while you’re still like, can’t make rent this month. But like emotionally it felt like, oh, did I like do something wrong? And so I just like, I just wanna like go, I don’t know like go back and underline that. ’cause I’m, I bet you a lot of people can resonate with that. Yeah. And then, because I definitely went through that experience and for me there’s also like a second phase of like emotionalness where like, like when, when, when Josh was dying, like, which it’s, it’s still kind of fresh ’cause it was like f four, four years ago, like a month ago, two months ago, I both didn’t intellectually believe that God was curing some people with cancer and not his. 00:19:11 And I also like emotionally did not feel that either, like he didn’t do anything wrong. And so, but like in the like two years before he died when it was like very clear that it was terminal and in the, like the six months after maybe like I was still, I had would have like an emotional reaction when people would talk about either before he died, like I’m praying for him, I’m praying for a miracle, like to hold out hope, like never give up. Like God can heal. I’d be like, you motherfucker, that’s not how it works. Because like body is withering away in real time. He has like three tubes coming up and it’s fucking terrible. Like how dare you? And then afterwards, like, don’t, you know, like, or when people would like, oh, like I prayed and like God cured my, my mom or me or my uncle. 00:20:00 And I’d be like, that is fucking terrible theology. Like no, God didn’t like, I’d be like righteously angry. Like no God didn’t like, do you know what that says about like everyone in general and also particularly Josh, like, and now that it’s been four years, I think I can hear people say that and not get so emotionally activated, but I just like wanna name that like, even if you don’t believe in any five of you being that God is doing it, like you can still be sort of like trigger triggered, like activated about other people’s sort of like stuff around theology in general on prayer in particular. And I felt like I was like, I probably text you every single time someone said something like that to me. 00:20:40 And I think like that was, that was like part of it, right? Was to like recognize sometimes I would like be a little bit short with people if they said it to me either in person or in real life. But I mostly when I try to like be like, you don’t mean it like that way. Like you don’t have any, anybody, these are the best tools that you have. Like I know that’s not how it works. Like that can be good enough. And I would just sort of be like, okay and move on and like send you a three paragraph text. But so like how, like, do you have places people who in your life who both are like on board with you emotionally, that you can be your whole vulnerable self with that you can like vent to your trust friends, so you’re not like taking it on a stranger. 00:21:21 And you are also, I’m still stuck in this emotions and you were talking about like, it does sometimes feel like now that you’re around these people who are imagining porn, this like, god, like that does feel lovely. Like what if there was someone looking out for me? Like I think that we don’t have to feel bad if we think that sometimes, right? Like we don’t have to beat ourselves up for that. There’s like nothing wrong with it. It’s, it’s very human that like in a hard world to want someone even bigger and even more loving and even more powerful to have our back. And so like wouldn’t it be like, I don’t know, like wouldn’t it be nice like I think we can say like, wouldn’t it be nice if I could pray to God and like I just like really knew that God would like make my rent payment happen. 00:22:05 Like maybe it will, but like maybe it won’t. Like, but I wish I had that certainty or, and I’m thinking also about just sort of like beyond prayer, like, like afterlife. Like I really don’t, I don’t think that I’m gonna ever get to like see Josh and talk to Josh again. Like, and sometimes it’s like nice to like, whether I say it to myself or to my journal or to my partner or to other friends who knew him, like, man, like fuck, like I wish he was here. Or like, I wish he was looking down. Like I don’t, I intellectually don’t think that he was looking down on me, but like, I wish he was, or like I was just listening to the podcast episode so that we recorded like a few weeks after he died. It was right around this time of year actually the, the, the lectionary text was on the like post-resurrection exper appearances I think. 00:22:48 Or we just, I just brought that up because I was like sitting in his old apartment and feeling like, oh, like he feels like he’s like here still. And like I know that he’s like, not here, but like to, it’s, it’s like, it’s okay to use metaphor or or poetic language or to like, imagine if like I, you know, I remember my, before he died, my therapist would be like, you know, maybe you just like now when he couldn’t travel anymore, like you could just like have an afternoon like talking about like, oh, like what if he would like went back. It was also the pandemic. Like what if feel like we went back to fire island. Like wouldn’t it be lovely to like go to the beach or go cruising for guys or what place would we want to see? Or like, you know, that trip that we never got to take to France, like what would we eat? And at this point he couldn’t eat. He had like got obvious nutrition intravenously. So it was like, oh yeah, like remember that like pot roast you made three years ago. 00:23:31 Like, like it is okay to sort of like indulge our emotions and tell stories and use poetic language and metaphor and imagine and wish and dream. Like there’s like something really beautiful and human about that. Even if you as you intellectually are like, yeah, like he, like he’s gone. And also like I sometimes I still talk to him like, and that’s like a yes. And, And I, it also, as you were talking about like the wouldn’t it be nice if, if God like if if someone was looking out for me, I think that too is like an invitation to me to think about like, how do we be that for each other? Yeah. Right. 00:24:11 That there is this sense of like, yeah, maybe, maybe God isn’t gonna miraculously drop 500 bucks for my rent in my lap, but like maybe a bunch of my friends will, or like, maybe I can do that for someone else. And that like, I don’t know that that doesn’t get to your point about grief and loss and that Yeah. But, but there is, I don’t know, even in that it’s a sense of like, when you and your friends get together and you talk about what you remember and what you experienced with Josh, like that is a, a way of calling him back and recalling him and keeping his, keeping him alive in, in the midst of your community. 00:24:53 And I know that you’ve talked a lot about how much he taught you all and how you continue to live out those values together. Yeah. And that, that too is like a way of, of carrying that forward. And so I think that there, there is like the thing that feels so appealing about that prayer of like, it a miracle is just gonna happen, but it, it always required people, right? Yeah. So I think that the, the like beauty of, I don’t know, maybe the beauty of progressive theology or the honesty of progressive theology is to say, well, it’s always been us, right? Yeah. It’s always been up to us to like make that happen and to show up and to be be the justice, be the community, be the whatever in the world. 00:25:42 And like, I don’t know, we can, we can still do that. Even, even when things are the way they are now. Shay that is, I, I’m such a fan boy, I can’t believe I’ve known you for so long. Like, that was so it’s al like if, yeah, ’cause I like it was never in my mind, it was never a man in the sky intervening, which then means like, it’s always been us, which is actually like, God, I could cry. That’s like really fucking beautiful and like, I, it just reminds me of like last week, right? Also we were talking about like community and community care and effort and like, I feel just like infinitely lucky that I, like I do feel held by these like five guys that like we went through hell with, right? 00:26:28 And I’m aware that like not everyone has that and like doesn’t feel as held by their like this like beautiful queer chosen family that I have. And also I’m aware that like 15 years ago I didn’t, I didn’t know Josh 15 years ago. Like, it, like, it is not something that I’ve always had. It’s something that like partly I lucked into partly we all put a lot of effort in. Like, I, like I tell a story in my book, love Beyond Monogamy. Like I absolutely, like Peter met Josh, we like first met through a, like a dating and hookup app. Like I would’ve vetoed him if I had that power and like got him outta my life because I was like jealous and uncomfortable and like, but I didn’t. And like we grew up And I became one of my best friends, right? That like, it was not without trial and error and turmoil and heartbreak and you know, hurt feelings along the way. 00:27:15 Like, and also like a decade later, like we emerged or something really beautiful and like it took, it took work and like I had many other iterations of friend groups over the years, right? Like that I’m still friends with many of those people just like in different ways. And so like, if you’re like, God, I like I that’s like well and good Brian, you’re not this beautiful queer family in New York. Like, like that. Like it might mean taking some actions to go either meet some people or like deepen the connections that you already have. I just shared a Instagram post today from a black woman educator who was talking about like communal care and friendship and it was like, you have to stop splitting your lunches on Venmo down to the penny. 00:28:01 Like that makes your relationship transactional. You have to like, you don’t Venmo your friend to dog your cat, like you dog sit their cat there, there a dog one weekend, like the house pick up your groceries the next weekend. Like you need to sort of like, there are some things, especially now with technology and social media and sort of like on demand everything. Like, it is really easy to sort of like isolate and we really have to like push against the sort of commodification of every single thing. And that means like sometimes like I buy a this round of drinks and you buy the second round or you buy the round next week or like you crash on my couch, like crouch on your couch. 00:28:41 Like I pick you up from the airport, you pick me up from the airport, I ask you how you’re feeling. It’s vulnerable, it feels scary. Like I bet you were to my house for dinner. Like, I mean, we could, that could be a whole series or a whole like immersive something or other, but there like, it does feel like you, it takes action and it’s never, it’s like never too late to start my mom not to get too personal and share her shit. She’ll be, would be so upset. But like my mom has made some like really beautiful friendships just over the past like five years that are like super, super meaningful to her and she’s pushing 70 now. So like, it’s never like, there’s always time to, to start forming the community around you. 00:29:22 Friends. Don’t forget that coming up in the first week of June, we’re doing the Queerness Everyday Challenge. It is a six day challenge where we encourage you to do something to infuse and integrate your queerness and your spirituality every single day. And you can do it five minutes a day or less and have a great community of people that come around and come together to, to do this challenge. It’s only $7. So we would love to have you as part of Sanctuary Collective to Join the Queerness Everyday Challenge. You can find out more by gonna Queer Theology com slash challenge and you can also sign up there, hope to see you inside of Sanctuary Collective. The Queer Theology podcast is just one of many things that we do at Queer Theology dot com, which provides resources, community, and inspiration for L-G-B-T-Q Christians and straight cisgender supporters. 00:30:05 To dive into more of the action, visit us at Queer Theology dot com. You can also connect with us online on Facebook, Twitter, Tumblr, and Instagram. We’ll see you next week. The post Queering Prayer appeared first on Queer Theology.

Besides just being BUSY at the moment, we’re both feeling the anxiety of the daily current news. And it is exhausting, y’all. So, yes, while we do need a good nap, we also get into the themes of rest, self-care, and community engagement amidst the challenges of modern life in this episode. There is a tension between the need for personal rest and the demands of activism, and as with most things in life, it is important to find balance. We also talk about the value of micro rituals in daily life, even if they are much more micro than you would like them to be. We’re holding another round of the Queerness Every Day Challenge and it’s a great opportunity for folks to participate in small, meaningful practices that connect queerness and spirituality, especially amidst the busyness!   Takeaways Both hosts express a shared feeling of being emotionally and spiritually drained. The conversation highlights the importance of self-care amidst life’s demands. There is a tension between the need to rest and the need to engage in activism. Marginalized individuals often have less ability to rest due to survival pressures. Quality engagement with community can be more rejuvenating than passive consumption. Micro rituals can help maintain connection to spirituality and self-care. The busier one is, the more they need to engage in self-care practices. Finding a minimum viable ritual can help maintain spiritual practices during busy times. Community connections are vital for emotional support and rejuvenation. The Queerness Every Day Challenge encourages small, meaningful daily practices.   Chapters (07:18) Balancing Self-Care and Activism (13:28) Quality Engagement vs. Passive Consumption (19:27) Micro Rituals for Daily Life (22:27) The Queerness Every Day Challenge     Resources:. Join our online community at  Sanctuary Collective Community If you want to support the Patreon and help keep the podcast up and running, you can learn more and pledge your support at patreon.com/queertheology   This transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors or omissions. Welcome to the Queer Theology Podcast. I’m Brian G Murphy. And I’m father Shannon, T l Kearns. We’re the co-founders of Queer Theology dot com and your hosts from Genesis, revelation, the Bible declare good news to LGBTQ plus people, and we want to show you how tune In each week on Sunday for conversations about Christianity, queerness and transness, and how they can enrich one another. We’re glad you’re here. Hello. Hello. Hello. Welcome back, Shannon. And I just, before we hit record right now, or I asked Shannon, what do you wanna talk about on the podcast today? And I wish we were already recording so I could have a screenshot of the face he made and he said, napping. 00:00:50 And, you know, God, that hit me. So that was, felt just like, felt so real And I was like, yeah, let’s talk about that. Like, and so we’re not gonna talk only about napping, but I think, and, and let us know if this resonates with you, that like, we’re both kind of like literally tired a lot of the time, emotionally tired, sometimes feeling like spiritually drained and despondent. I mean, I think like for all the obvious reasons that everyone is feeling. And then also we, we probably each have our own sort of like, particular versions of that in our own lives. You know, this is something that happens at all points throughout history and throughout our lives. And also like at this particular moment, it feels maybe it’s more acute for many of us. 00:01:34 And also, right, like I still gotta pay the bills And I still have like family and friends that I care about and who care about me. And I still want to like experience joy and connection and community. And I still wanna, like, I don’t wanna give up and just crawl into a hole. I want to continue to fight to make the world a better place. And so like, we wanna explore this sort of like tension between the very real need to sometimes take naps and to take care of ourselves, and also the importance of taking care of each other. And maybe how those two, like you actually can’t separate as much as maybe people want you to think you can separate and, and just sort of like, like how are we doing this in this moment? 00:02:16 We don’t have an outline. This is like very unscripted off the cuff. I was working on my other job like until like 9:00 PM last night. So we’re like, this is like, you’re like, you’re Shay’s been driving a bunch for work. Like you’re getting, this is real. So Shay like you said, I want talk about, or I don’t, if you see this, wanna talk about, I think you said what I wanna do is nap. Yes, yes. So like what’s, like, what’s going on for you? Yeah, yeah. It’s just been a really, really busy season. You know, as we’re recording this, we’re recording this a little bit ahead of, of when it’s gonna go out, but like, I just launched a book a couple of weeks ago. I started a new job about a month ago. 00:02:55 I’m like you said, I’ve been driving a ton. The, the work that I’m doing has me in, in a bunch of different places. A, a play that I have been working on for two years, like just had its premiere, right? So there’s just been a ton going on and we were both kind of joking, you know, I think there’s that meme that goes around that’s like adulthood is just saying things are gonna calm down after next week over and over again until you die. Yep. And that’s, I feel like the two of us have both been in that space of, like, I was just telling my wife today, I was like, yeah, now this play is open. Like the the last thing I have to do is like rewrite the Queer Theology book. And we were kind of like laughing and then I can take a break and it’s just like, you know, it’s just, It’s just a small little thing of rewriting a whole 65,000 a book, Not 60,000 pages, Lord, Sorry, 60,000 words. 00:03:49 Yes. Be like, what publishing. But I think that, you know, I, I think, I think that this feeling that both of us are laughing about is like not uncommon with a lot of people. And I think that like, in addition to all of the just logistical and whatever things, it’s also like we are living in a time of increasing whatever this is. And there’s a lot of, you know, anxiety and fear and uncertainty and just a lot of unknowns. And like that also takes a toll on your mental and emotional and spiritual health. And so like, I’m just, I’m carrying all of that. 00:04:31 Yeah. And I think, I know that there’s been a lot of conversation online about like, rest over the past. I don’t know, it, it feels like over the past couple of years there’s been kind of this rest discourse, some from the like Nat Ministry folks, but like that it’s, it’s a lot broader, more broad than, than just that. And I’ve, I’ve really struggled with that because I think that there is a tension between, yes, we have to take care of ourselves, we have to like actually sleep and eat and drink water and all of those things. And also like, the more marginalized you are, I think the less ability you have to rest. 00:05:14 Like, there’s just always something to do. And like often that’s something to do feels very tied to survival, right? It’s not just like, I don’t have the luxury to just like check out because people are trying to legislate trans people out of existence. Right? Like, I don’t have the luxury to just whatever. And It’s like not choosing between like, I’m only gonna go go to one brunch this weekend instead of two brunches this weekend. Exactly. Right. Exactly. And like, and sometimes it feels like, I dunno, this is maybe my bias showing, I mean, sometimes it feels like some of the folks using the rest idea, especially online, are people who are like white, white, able bodied, cis and like not actually doing anything anyway. 00:06:01 And so it like, so it’s like whatcha resting from Yeah. Like, because you’re like not out in the streets and you’re not defending trans people and you’re not like fighting for existence. And so all I’m saying, and you work Like, and you work at Google, like Yeah. Like, you’re, you’re, you’re fine. Yeah. Maybe, maybe what you need to do is like, rest less and yeah, work more so that the rest of us can rest Anyway. So I, so I, I’ve struggled with that tension, but I do think that there is a, there’s something here for marginalized folks at figuring out, like, what is that balance? Like how do we care for ourselves and invest in our communities and like center joy and celebration in the midst of also not checking out of the work and continuing to show up for justice causes. 00:06:54 And I don’t, I don’t clearly with how tired I’m today, like I have not achieved that balance. But I do think that it’s like, that’s an important thing to be thinking through and and wrestling through for all of us, especially in this moment. So those are, yeah, those are some of my initial thoughts. Yeah. Something that you said sparked in me, this totally unrelated idea that I use in my relationship coaching practice, but it, it feels like an apt analogy. And I, I wanna share that and then like, then I’ll share a little bit about my own shit. But like oftentimes, especially in long-term relationships where the partners live together, what will happen is they, because they live together and they’ve been together for a while, they’ll end up spending like most of their time together. 00:07:37 And so every day they like come home from work or they work all day at home anyways. ’cause they’re, they’re remote working and so they’ll sort of like be at home and like, maybe they’ll cook dinner and maybe they’ll order dinner in and they’ll like watch a TV show or like not, or sort of like be on their phones. And so they’re like spending a lot of like physical time together, but it’s like very like the same old, same old every single day and kind of monotonous and, or they’re like physically next to each other on the couch, but they’re scrolling on Instagram if they’re open or polyamorous, like they’re scrolling on Grindr or Tinder or they’re like Snapchatting with like strangers, right? Like, and so you’re like together, but you’re like not having quality reconnection time, nor are you actually having quality, like meeting new people time or stimulating your brain through hobbies or like resting. 00:08:31 And so this sort of like seemingly paradoxical coaching that I often give folks is like, you probably need to spend like more both like more time together and less time together, like less physical time together. Even if that’s just sort of like go into separate rooms and like read a book over there and like, you play your favorite video game over here, but like, don’t just like sit on the couch kind of doing nothing together. That is nice sometimes, but like, that shouldn’t be your every day. And, and then spend more time like, like cooking in the elaborate meal rather than just like reheating pizza or like making a picnic in the park or going for a walk around the block or like putting your phones away and sitting on the couch and like holding hands or using one of those like intimacy card decks by Best Self co like asking each other a few like sort of deep questions, like to actually get some quality connection. 00:09:16 And so I think that there’s a, an analogy here where sort of like, when I feel the least the when I sometimes, like when I feel the most in need of rest is like when I’m like not doing anything where it’s like I’ve like caught myself in a doom scroll and I’ve been like reading the news and reading all these, watching all these like reels about how terrible things are and wars and bombings and prisons and like feelings sort of like helpless and hopeless and disconnected and like, my eyes literally hurt, but I am not actually napping. And so like, like I think that, and I’m saying this just as much to myself as I am to you or anyone else is like, I probably need like both more naps and also more picnics and also more protests. 00:10:02 And also let’s spin another p like, and also like more pottery, right? Like, like I think that like what I, what like I think I like need to unhook from is this sort of like mediocre, there’s a Bible verse about this also, like, right, like, don’t be there, don’t be be be hot or cold. Don’t be lukewarm God lukewarm. Or like, I think that this like, sort of like lukewarm, I feel like I don’t have enough energy to go to the park, but I like, don’t wanna take a nap ’cause it feels like there’s too much to do. So then I kind of do like neither. And so I think like the, like how can I both rest and then also like rejuvenate and like those like might be two different things and Instagram reels and YouTube videos as much as I want them to be rejuvenating or not actually rejuvenating, right? 00:10:51 It’s like a talk with friends of like fresh sour of like watching the sunset, like whatever it might be. Like going to like a community meeting and meeting my neighbors, like getting outside of my house. I always, I hate sometimes leaving my house. And also 95% of the time if I’m leaving my house as long as I’m home by 8:45 PM like I I’m glad that I, I’m glad that I left the house. So there’s like something there about this sort of like, yes ending, it’s like not either or. And like the times that I feel like most in need of support, like going, whether it’s to a book club or services or just like meeting up with friends and offering a listening ear, like giving support also sometimes then allows me to get support and asking for what you need. 00:11:43 And like, like now more than ever, community connections just like feel super important and that does take like work, but it’s like a different type of work than like your day job work. You know what I mean? Yeah, that’s that’s what I was gonna say. Like I, it feels to me that sometimes the things that take energy, like showing up at a protest or a community meeting or, or even like engaging with friends while while those do take energy, it takes, it’s a different, it’s a more engaged energy, right? And the recovery from that is different. It feels a lot different than like doom scrolling or tweeting or getting in involved in like in raging conversations online. 00:12:30 Yeah. I in a way that like, that too can sometimes feel like you’re doing something like quote unquote doing something. Like you’re staying informed, you’re bringing a Awareness stand, speaking your voice. Yes. Yeah. Like all of those things. But like those take a different type of toll And I think that like lead I, I’ll, I’ll speak for myself, like often lead me to a feeling of, I don’t know, like blah is the best Blah god word For it. Right. I’m Just like, a lot of the time that’s like, Yeah. Where it’s just like I, I I get like, I guess I’m engaged, I guess what, but it doesn’t, like I’m not rejuvenated and I’m also like not spent in a way that feels right. 00:13:14 There is a way in which like when I’ve done a really good thing, I had a hard conversation with someone Yeah. That I do feel spent, but it it’s like a good kind of spent Yeah. That like, like after a really good workout, right? Like you, your body feels spent, but it also feels Yeah. Strong and engaged and you feel in it. And I think that like, that feels like an important distinction for me too. Yeah. You know, I, so I used to, there was a while a few years ago where I was like praying every day. I mean, and also like praying, I am not a talk to God prayer. I’m like a read a liturgy prayer. So I, but like, so it wass like the same liturgy every day or like for a while with poems. 00:13:54 Like, so when I say pray, like I really mean like spending like some amount of minutes in sort of structured mindfulness. And I was like doing like every day And I was like, really great. And I like have been doing it for a while and like, like a few weeks ago I like, I was like, oh, like maybe I should like, like dab in this morning. And I like did it And I was like, oh, that felt great. Like I wish I did this more. And then like I did it then like the next day maybe, And I was like, oh, this is awesome. I’m gonna keep doing this. And then like the third day I didn’t do it. Like, And like it does, like, you do have to sort of like keep your foot on the pedal a little bit and like, I don’t know, I like, I, that is something that speaks to me like reading, whether it’s like liturgical prayers or poetry, but like, it could be journaling or knitting or crafting or like hosting weekly meals with your roommates or your chosen family or just like your friends. 00:14:44 Like I know that we’re like a little broken record here, but like, what are the like practices that like support and sustain you and like you the like weird paradox, right? Is that like you do have to like exert some amount of effort on it. It’s just that like, kinda like you were saying like a workout, but it’s like a workout for your heart, like your, your, your soul that like, you exert a little bit of effort for your soul and then like the, the payoff is so much more than the effort. Like, we invited a few people over for dinner on a Friday night a few weeks ago, and it was like, oh, there was just five of us and like my husband made a crockpot chicken, like pulled chicken thing like that we put on store-bought rolls and it was like just, it was very simple and pretty cheap and like, but so like, so lovely, right? 00:15:41 And I was like, oh, I wanna do more of this. And like, then we had friends over for drinks before a bunch of ’em went over to out to their Kylie Mano concert. Like that night I didn’t, I stayed in, but like some of them went to that And I was like, oh, we should like, we should like move this thing like every Friday. Of course. Like I haven’t, so like for as much as I, as much as we like talk about rituals, we have like a whole workshop inside of spi, study hall, sanctuary collective about rituals and the power of them. Like even I sometimes need to sort of like go back to those checklists and worksheets and sort of like recommit to them. And so like, I think like, I guess I didn’t start out this conversation thinking that I was gonna like end here, but I was like, oh, like what are the, and whether it’s like spiritual rituals are just sort of like communal care. 00:16:26 Like what are the things that actually make me feel cared for, protected, safe, seen, supported part of something bigger and like how might I put in a little bit of effort to get those and then also like maybe say no to some stuff that like isn’t gonna actually fill me up and like go to bed early. Like, I’m so glad I didn’t go to the sky Le Monroe concert. Like if you feel like I went to bed like on a Friday night at like 9:00 PM it was fucking amazing, right? So like sometimes it’s saying like, that does sound like fun, but like, let’s do an afternoon thing this weekend instead of getting together at 9:30 PM for drinks. You know, like, and or maybe you’re a night owl at 9:30 PM works great for you and an afternoon thing wouldn’t be good for you. 00:17:08 But like figuring out like what, like how can you sometimes do rest but also not like resting without retreating I think is, I guess what I’m figuring out. And that also makes me think of like, I, I think often when I’m as stressed and as busy as I currently am, it can feel like, what do you mean you want me to have rituals on top of this? Like I don’t even have time to Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sleep I like and now I’ve gotta do this new thing. And one of the things that I’ve been working on and not always succeeding with but working on over the past couple of years is like to use a kind of businessy term is like what’s my minimum viable ritual, right? 00:17:50 Where it’s like in an ideal day, right, I would love to sit down before I go to work and write three pages longhand in my journal and while having a cup of coffee and then light a candle and read some prayers and read a poem and meditate and do like all of these different things. And it’s like, okay, that’s the perfect, so like what is, what is the like thing that I can keep in practice? And so it’s like, great, I can write three sentences in my journal and it might be at the end of the day, not in the morning, I can do five minutes of meditation instead of 10. I can read a super short poem or nothing. 00:18:32 Right? Like yeah. That there are ways for me to stay engaged in these practices even if it’s not ideal. And, but it, that is still like keeping me engaged in that, in that practice so that when I do have more time, you know, then I can do the full thing. There was also some meditation teacher that, that was, had this thing of like, anyone who said, I’m too busy to meditate. He’s like, you should meditate for 20 minutes a day and if you’re too busy to meditate for 20 minutes a day, you should meditate for two hours a day. Right? It was this sense of like, the busier you’re, the more that you actually need the thing. And I, I’m sure that that teacher was maybe being facetious, but Yeah. 00:19:14 But I think that there is something there of like, it’s in the times when we’re most stressed and the, and when we feel most, like I do not have time to go out with my friends. I do not have time to engage in spiritual practices. I do not have time to do X, y and Z. Yeah. But those are the times when we most desperately need to figure out how to do something, something to connect something to practice something to whatever. Yeah. And I don’t know if this is like an a DHD hyper fixation thing or if this is just like an everyone thing, but like, I often find myself like wanting to, like when I have like an idea of like wanting to like really go big, I wanna like watch 12 different YouTube videos about it. 00:19:55 I wanna like read some articles about it. I want some checklist. I wanna like make a spreadsheet or a plan or start a new project in my like to do app and like we’re like, go big, right? And it’s like, yeah, or, or like, could I just like do one thing? Like could I just like text it, right? Like I don’t actually have to have a whole system for like how I’m gonna send every single person I know a birthday card in an anniversary card And I just thinking of you card all year long, I could just send like one card to the next person whose birthday is right. Or like for my mornings like to sort of like pray the morning like prayer service and, and Judaism it like takes like about 15 minutes if you’re like by yourself and kind of going quickly. But like, if I like wanna get like my prayer show out, it’s like, it’s like at least 18 to 20 minute like endeavor, right? 00:20:36 Like, And I have to like find my per on then fold it back up afterwards. So I’m like, that’s like my ideal. But like, okay. But so I don’t, I don’t either, like I don’t have time for that or I’m just like, do all energy And I don’t feel like that, that feels like overwhelming wherever I am, like sitting or laying down. Can I just like use the timer on my watch for five minutes and just sort of like count my breath and then maybe say thema, which is like one sentence, two sentences before or after that and like call that a day. Which, which like leads me, I guess like, which like leads me into this thing that we have coming up The Queerness Every Day Challenge. One of the things that we talk about is like finding affirmations or like literally like micro rituals that you can sort of like remind yourself of ways in which your queerness and your faith are like already intertwined. 00:21:29 And like starting with something like super, super small as like a really powerful reminder of the, like that you’re good, that you’re holy, that you’re deserving of love and rest. That you’re like, your body is good. Like whatever is like fuels important for you. Like whatever, like the word is that you need to hear. Like how can you find these like tiny little practices that you can sort of like smush into your life that don’t feel like they’re add-ons that you can do laying down, that you can do on the bus, that you can do before bed that you can like do before tired, but you don’t have to do anything. All you have to do is like open your eyes and like look at the thing you already put out like three weeks ago. 00:22:09 Right. So that’s coming up soon. I Shay you wanna share a little bit more about this? Yeah. You know, one of the things that I love about The Queerness Every Day Challenge this is will be our what our third time doing it fourth. So yeah, third time. Is that like, it, it’s a good reminder to me about how about returning to the same practices? Like, and we, we switch it up a little bit each year, but, but the, the functional thing is kind of the same. So like, how do we do these small things that can infuse queerness and spirituality and the intersections between them into our daily lives in like five minutes a day or less? And what I love about this is like, it’s a reminder to me that a revisiting and returning to the same practices reveal something deeper every time to me. 00:23:00 And also like, because I have changed in the last year, even though I’m doing the same thing, like I’m gonna have a different experience of it because I’m different. And it’s a reminder that like even small things can, when when they add up, can make a really big difference in that. Like re-engaging in this work, reminding myself of these intersections and why they matter to me, like is deeply, deeply meaningful. And so whether you’ve done it with us in the past or whether you’re like brand new to it, really encourage you to, to join this queerness everyday challenge. It’s super fun. We have a community space collective, something, something small that you can do. 00:23:47 There’s some advanced player moves if you’ve done it before or you wanna take it even deeper. And we do it together every day for a week and, and come together and form community around that. And it’s, it’s really awesome. It’s a, it was a really special time every year and so we hope you’ll will join us for that. Yeah, and it’s the first week of June, so it’s a great way to kick off your pride month. It runs Sunday, June 1st to Friday, June 6th. It’s just $7 and you can do it from anywhere in the world. We have folks in the US and Canada and South Africa, and Denmark Australia, Germany, South Korea, like really, really from all over. And so we would love to have you be a part of that. 00:24:29 You can go to Queer Theology dot com slash challenge to learn more and sign Up. Yeah, we’d love to have you. The Queer Theology podcast is just one of many things that we do at Queer Theology dot com, which provides resources, community, and inspiration for L-G-B-T-Q Christians and straight cisgender supporters. To Dive into more of the action, visit us at Queer Theology dot com. You can also connect with us online on Facebook, Twitter, Tumblr, and Instagram. We’ll see you next week. The post We Need a Nap appeared first on Queer Theology.

We tackle a series of questions from listeners on this week’s episode! The questions focus on the intersection of faith, identity, and community for LGBTQ+ individuals. We discuss the challenges faced by transgender individuals in church settings, the misconceptions surrounding sin and sexuality, the experiences of agnostics in religious spaces, and the nuanced understanding of the Holy Spirit in the lives of queer individuals. We also get into grief, demons and the importance of personal agency and community in navigating these topics.   Takeaways No, it’s not a sin and you’re not going to hell. Conservative views often equate same-gender relationships with addiction. It’s important to find an affirming community. God didn’t make a mistake in creating trans individuals. We co-create our identities with God. Agnostics are welcome in many progressive churches. Defining God can vary greatly among individuals. Community and rituals can be meaningful without belief in God. The Holy Spirit’s role is often misunderstood in evangelicalism. The working of the spirit is a mystery, not a certainty. Activism can inspire students to take action and create change. Transcendence can be felt in everyday experiences, such as dance and community. The concept of demons and possession is often tied to mental health and societal issues. Rituals can provide comfort and connection in times of grief. Praying for the departed can be a personal and meaningful practice. Understanding the historical context of spiritual beliefs is crucial. Personal agency should not be undermined by the concept of demonic influence. Grief is a non-linear process that requires compassion and understanding. Community support is vital in navigating spiritual and emotional challenges. Rituals can help honor the memory of loved ones and facilitate healing.   Chapters (1:04) Agnostics and Their Place in Church (8:21) Navigating Church as a Transgender Individual (15:57) The Role of the Holy Spirit in LGBTQ+ Lives (26:05) Exploring the Concept of Demons and Possession (31:28) Praying for the Departed: Grief and Rituals   Resources: What’s the Deal with the Pigs? Want to submit a question? Go to queertheology.com/listen to submit your own.  Join our online community at  Sanctuary Collective Community    If you want to support the Patreon and help keep the podcast up and running, you can learn more and pledge your support at patreon.com/queertheology   This transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors or omissions. (9s): Welcome to the Queer Theology Podcast. I’m Brian G Murphy. And I’m father Shannon, T l Kearns. We’re the co-founders of Queer Theology dot com and your hosts From Genesis, revelation. The Bible declares good news to LGBTQ plus people, and we want to show you how tuning In each week on Sunday for conversations about Christianity, queerness and transness, and how they can enrich one another. We’re glad you’re here. Hello. Hello. Welcome back to the Queer Theology Podcast. This week we’ve got a q and a episode. You all have been sending in questions through our Google Voice number, and we’re super excited to tackle some of them today. We’ve got some really great and interesting questions, and we’re just gonna take ’em one by one. And if you would like to submit your question for a future episode of the podcast, you can go to Queer Theology dot com slash podcast and there will be instructions on that page with how to submit your question. (1m 4s): Our first question is an anonymous one from Tumblr. For anyone who is still on Tumblr, you can submit questions to us there. We, I think Tumblr is still in existence as of the recording of this episode. So this question is, can a agnostics go to church? I wrote a whole novel of a question with backstory and everything, but deleted it because that’s the crux of my question. I realized I was queer after I became agnostic. So that combo doesn’t hold much angst for me luckily. But every now and then I circle back around to religion and the thing that always stops me from engaging completely is that I am agnostic. And I don’t think that’s going to change at this point. I’ve done a lot of soul searching and a lot of research, and it doesn’t matter which religion, I just can’t believe things I don’t believe. (1m 48s): That wasn’t very eloquent, but I hope you know what I mean. But something’s obviously calling me back over and over. So yeah. Can agnostics go to church? I think that’s actually quite elegant, actually. Yes. I love this question. Yeah, yeah. Yes, definitely. I would say that in, in a, in many, most like progressive liberal mainline churches, the pastors and priests there were like, absolutely love for agnostics to come. It’s not just me saying this. I have talked to many Agnos and many pastors and priests at, at churches that are like, yeah, sure, come on. There’s like lots of reasons to come to church. (2m 28s): Like if you believe in the mission of Jesus, the work that we’re doing here at the community that we’re forming, the rituals speak to you. Like, come on in. You don’t Have to. And and honestly, a lot of those pastors and priests might also be agnostics. Yep. So that’s just know that, Yes. I would also, also also gonna say like a lot of pastors and priests are potentially agnostic, And I think this really gets down to like, how do you define God? And so like if God is a man in the sky that like used magic spells and conjured up miracles to create, to form the world in his hand and intervenes in the affairs of the world, then like many, many, many Christians, Jews, pastors, priests, rabbis, imams, like don’t believe in that God. (3m 21s): But many people still say that they believe in God. But it’s something else. I, for probably the entire time that we’ve done Queer Theology, I’ve been like, I don’t know if I believe in God. And so for a while there was like, can I still call myself a Christian? And, and Shannon, you’ve always been like, yeah, man, like you, like believe in the ministry of Jesus and like you’re down for a Christian community. And so like, come on. I’m like, good enough for me. Obviously at some point I converted to Judaism And I think like, actually like, like when I was still a Christian, it kind of felt important to be like, well, I don’t believe in the conservative Christian version of God, but there’s like a different version of God that I do believe in. (4m 5s): And it’s definitely not anything supernatural, but it’s like, I don’t know, when you like hold a baby in your arms and it cries like it’s just sound waves reverberating through the air and then into your eardrum. Like, and also that it’s like something more, right? When you like have a really like special meal with your like queer chosen family, there’s like something sort of like sizzling in the air. There. There are things that we have been told are impossible, and then a group of people who are willing to sacrifice everything for it come together believing in the impossible. And then somehow the what what seems to be impossible becomes impossible, right? (4m 49s): And so like that sort of like whatever that is, I like people call that, some people call that God. And so like, I think like you get to define what God is and you can still be agnostic or even an atheist and believe in the power of community or unpacking and diving into religion or seeing what you can learn or the rituals or what whatever it might be for you. And like you don’t, you don’t have to believe in God to do that. And also a lot of the people who say they believe in God, like there’s so many different definitions of God that is important to ask. Like, well, what does that, what does God mean to you? Because you might be closer in belief to a lot of the people at these churches than you realize. (5m 33s): Yeah. I, I echo all of that. I, I think that too, like just also, you know, kind of being clear with folks about who you are, which doesn’t mean you need to like walk in announcing you and agnostic, right. And I believe that. Yeah. But like, you know, being clear about with folks there about like what is it that you are invested in and, and how you want to engage and why you’re, why you’re there. And I think I would also add that finding the right community is gonna be really important too, because like if you’re in a community that is really, really big on proselytization, like you are just gonna be miserable, right? (6m 15s): Yeah. And they’re gonna be, yeah, they’re gonna see you as a project and they’re gonna try and save you. So like, you’re gonna wanna be in a, in a congregation that like allows for a diversity of belief and that is about the practice of creating community. So I just encourage you to, to kind of look for that as you’re joining a place or, or even attending, because that’s gonna be the thing that’s gonna make a difference between whether you have a good experience or a bad experience. But I, I think that there’s something in your question too about like, I’m feeling drawn to this. Just listen to that, right? Like, and, and again, like whatever that thing is that’s drawing you, whether that is community, whether it’s ritual, whether it’s justice, whether it’s whatever, there’s something there. (7m 4s): And so listening to that and finding out the places that you can live that out are, are gonna be important. And you might find that it’s actually not a church that you’re looking for, that you are looking for, I don’t know, a queer game night or a food not bombs community, right? But, but you might find that out by spending some time in churches and figuring out where to plug in and and how to connect with people. Yeah. And I would just offer at most churches the pastor is, would be like down for, maybe, I shouldn’t say most, but at many churches, probably most the pastor or a pastor at the church would be like down for having, setting up a meeting at some point, like for 30 minutes or a coffee or something. (7m 48s): So like if that doesn’t intimidate you, if that would feel good, like just to sort of like talk it out and be like sort of, here’s where I am, this is what I’m looking for. Like if it’s a smaller church, they’re probably like hungry for new members and so they would be like, excited to have you. And if they’re a bigger church, there’s a good chance that they have like multiple pastors or staff to like, do just this. And so like at any size church, you’ll probably be able to find someone to like talk to about this, to sort of get a sense of like what do they feel about your agnosticism. So our next question is from Darby. I am a transgender male who went back to church after my wife’s sister died back last March. (8m 28s): I believe in God and heaven and felt really good going to church until the beginning of this month when one of the pastors stated We need to help and save our family members and friends, those who are addicted to alcohol, pornography, and same sex relationships. It really made me uncomfortable. I didn’t even listen to the rest of the service and haven’t been back to church but want to go. I feel people judging who I am is definitely a sin to, and why can people be ugly toward us when all we do is love for love? Is being gay or trans a sin? Will I not go to heaven for being me? When people say God made you in his image and didn’t make a mistake making me, it really confuses me and he response to help me. I would appreciate it. Absolutely. Darby, we feel you. (9m 8s): Yeah. This is a hard one, right? Like it’s, it’s so hard when you’re in a space where you’re hearing aff affirming messages. So first of all, no, it’s not a sin and you’re not going to hell. So that’s, you can just take that off the plate. Yep, yep, yep. Right off the bat. And, and you know, I think that anytime someone is talking about being addicted to pornography, I always, that always raises red flags for me. I I really think that conservative folks are like obsessed with this idea of being addicted to everything and like clarifying very natural and normal sexual expression as addiction. (9m 52s): And so like that, that in your question raises red flags to me for sure. And of course like equating same gender relationships with other addictions is also like this person is, has some bad theology and would really encourage you to like seek out a, a new church. Yeah. There’s, there’s multiple questions sort of all wrapped up in this question, right? There’s this one question of I wanna go to church, but this church like says that it’s a sin to be gay and trans. Like, so I have been back, but I want to go back what, like what I do about that there’s like the question that then that church is bringing up in, in Darby, which is like, is it a sin to be queer? (10m 38s): And then there’s also this question of like, isn’t it a sin for you to judge people? Like what’s, like, what’s the deal with them judging me? And then also this other, this final question which is like related to the sin question, but feels different, which is like, did God make a mistake when making trans people? And I know that that’s a question that you’ve addressed multiple times, but so like it feels maybe like worth it to, to tease apart those Yeah, I mean when it comes to the, is it a sin question, right? Like I I I echo yha, no definitively no, this is a question that has been asked and answered for decades. And so like, I would encourage you, there’s a, there’s a lot of great scholarship out there if you are still really wrestling with that, that’s been written about this. (11m 21s): And also one of the things that I have found is that getting into this sort of like back and forth arguing about the academics and the translations and this word and the theology and the hermeneutics and the blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, like can be really difficult and unsatisfying. Not because there’s anything wrong with queerness or our arguments or our positions, but just that like conservative Christianity has like so warped the conversation around not just this issue but like, like the bible in general and theology in general, that like they’ve kind of rigged the rules to the game and then are asking you to play this like rigged version of the game with them. (12m 3s): And so trying to like answer the question dead on of like, is it a sin by looking at their arguments on their terms is gonna be like crazy making. And so I would encourage you if you are a person who like cares about church community, the Bible, faith, et cetera, that it’s really important to find an affirming community, not so that they’ll tell you what you want to hear, but because like they have different tools for reading the Bible and different ideas about theology and who God is and how God acts in the world. And it’s really like a holistic thing that you need to sort of like unpack. It’s not just like, you can’t just sort of like trade one answer for another answer. (12m 45s): It’s about reading the Bible with fresh eyes and re-imagining theology outside of this sort of like vindictive, punitive, small-minded, judgmental god. And so like that takes a bit of work, that’s work that we do inside of sanctuary collective and spiritual study hall. So like if you’re interested in coming alongside some LGBTQ folks from across the country, we love to have you Queer Theology dot com slash community, but there’s also lots of books and resources written about that. We have some, a few listed on our website. You can go to Queer Theology dot com slash Is it okay? And there are be some, some resources there for you. And then what about this? Like, is it a, like did God make a mistake, Shay if that feels like an important question to, to Tackle? (13m 27s): Yeah. I, this is such a complicated question, right? Because I I, my initial response is like, no, God didn’t make a mistake. And also I know for some folks their transness doesn’t necessarily feel like something that they are excited or happy about or that it’s a gift, right? Like I, I now have come to feel that my trans identity is a real gift that, like me being trans was God’s design and intention. And that I learned a lot through that process. And like that is really beautiful and helpful for me. But I know for other folks who have experienced right, a lot of dysphoria who really struggle with their trans identity, it, it feels like saying that God made them that way is like some kind of punitive or punishing thing and right. (14m 17s): So like I wanna tread carefully in that space. And so like if, if that’s how you’re feeling about your trans identity, like it can be really tricky to hear that like God intended you for, for you to be trans, right? But I do think that there is something for me in like, I learned a lot through the process of transitioning about myself, about what it means to be a good man about what it means to be a good human in ways that I don’t think I would have learned if I were cis and, and had been born a cis guy. Like I, I’ve often shared that had I been born a cis dude, like I would be an asshole even more than I already am because like I was born in a, in a tradition, right? (15m 2s): That trained cis guys in a different way and like without having to kind of question my own masculinity, like I, I had those giftings that would have led me down that path of, of being kind of an asshole. And so like, I’m grateful for my trans experience, but I, so all of that to say that like, I think that this is a really complex and complicated question and where I land on it is that like we get to have a say in co-creating our identities with God. And I think lots of folks have have talked about that over the years and like have experienced that. And so it, it is you, you transitioning or choosing to transition whenever that looks like for you is not you going against God des God’s design. (15m 54s): And I think that for me is the bottom line. Amen. Our next question is from Tam and Tam asked, hi, I would like to know if you all believe in The Holy Spirit. If so, how does he work in the life of someone who identifies as an LGBTQ plus person? Yeah, It’s, it’s so interesting because we get lots of messages from lots of different types of people. And so when messages are like super short like this, it’s always hard to like parse out like who the, who the asker is and what sort of assumptions they might be bringing to the question and what they’re getting at. And are there any sort of unasked questions or like agendas. (16m 39s): And so like for instance, with this question, it could be asked from someone who is a conservative anti LGBT person who is trying to like look for a gotcha moment for us to trap us into saying something wrong about The Holy Spirit. Or it could be someone who is queer and like is wanting to know how The Holy Spirit could function in their life, or it could be from some other thing. And so given the lack of information, we’re just gonna take this at face value as a good faith question. If this was you or if you have a similar question, you can always like write in, in with more details, but we’re gonna just sort of do the best that we can with the limited information that we have. So Shay what would you, how would you answer this? (17m 20s): Yeah, it, so growing up, right, The Holy Spirit was a big deal, right? It was very much a, a part of my evangelical world and, and worldview and like The Holy Spirit was God’s indwelling in each believer to base honestly often mostly to convict us of sin, right? I think The Holy Spirit was supposed to do a little bit more than that, but like in our conception it Was stick back. Yep, yep, yep, yep, yep. And so, and so I don’t believe in The Holy Spirit in that way anymore. (17m 60s): So I’ll say that to start, I do think that there is, you know, back to back to the last question of like, it depends on how you define God, right? For me, there is a spirit in the world, something bigger than me. I, I believe in that And I do believe that that spirit is working in the world in ways that I might not be able to understand or see. And I also believe that like part of what we often call The Holy Spirit or what, especially in evangelicalism we call The Holy Spirit, right? (18m 40s): Which was like conviction of sin or nudges to do certain things are also like our own intuition and the the ways that God has wired us to like seek community and to want justice in the world. And so when I think about like how God works, where the spirit works in queer and trans folks, like, part of that for me was like, this spirit helped me understand that I was trans and have the courage to pursue, pursue transition. Like the spirit calls me toward community and toward justice and toward working for the least of these, the spirit, you know, sometimes does let me know that I’m being a jerk and that I should maybe apologize to someone and like show up in a different way in community. (19m 32s): And so I, I do believe in that, but I don’t necessarily believe that it’s like a unique to Christians or BI don’t know, like the cartoon of the little like angel on your shoulder right. Telling you things, right? And, and so I, so I think that this question has a lot of nuance And I think there’s also to me of like, part of what I think evangelicalism does wrong is it creates a sense of certainty around things that are actually supposed to be quite mysterious. And I, and for me, like the working of the spirit and what the spirit is, is absolutely a mystery. (20m 16s): And like I’m not afraid of that And I don’t feel the need necessarily to define it while also like living in it. I don’t know that, I don’t know if that, that doesn’t feel very eloquent, but that’s kind of like my thoughts on The Holy Spirit at this moment. Yeah, I think for me, similar to our first question, it’s like, well it depends on how you define all of these terms. And I like, similar to you, I think that I used to have this idea of The Holy Spirit as like both a voice, I guess like in my head, mind, spirit, soul, that like, since I had accepted Jesus, like was talking to me in some way to like convict me of my sin or tell me what job I should take or this is the girl that you should date or whatever. (21m 3s): And then like, maybe also somehow there was this sort of like war like, like supernatural war between like The Holy Spirit and like Demons. So like maybe somehow like The Holy Spirit was like, I don’t know, moving and making things happen out in the world also. And so like I like don’t believe in that. And so then I for a while was like, okay, I’m like, I don’t believe in any of that. And then I did this activism where I was traveling across the country doing direct act, non-violent, direct action activism at schools that discriminated against queer people. We were stopping in Ellendale, North Dakota at, it was an Assemblies of God school, I think it was, it doesn’t matter, yellow doesn’t matter. (21m 48s): This school, this Assemblies of God school in North Dakota and like the day before we got there, the police chief of this like small town like came to our hotel and was like, we gotta talk like the towns folk have heard you’re coming. And we got wind of a plan that some guys are gonna like bring their farm combines and literally run you off the road with their combines. So we need to make a plan. So that’s like the city erected these like concrete barriers kind of like blocking off the road where we were gonna be so that the combines couldn’t get to us so we could still be like protesting outside of the school. And then we heard that there was this Christian knitting group in South Dakota called Hook and for Jesus, and they also heard we were coming. (22m 37s): And so for like months leading up to our visit, they were like knitting prayer shawls each in a different color of the original pride rainbow. And as they were knitting them, they like prayed over them and thought about us and wished us well and infused all of their good vibes into it. And then they drove up from South La Dakota, North Dakota, and they gave us all these, these like six or seven prayer shawls. And so different people took them. One of them was like a Jewish guy, one of them was a, an atheist person. And we sort of like wrapped ourselves in these prayer shawls and stood at the chicken wire fence that the school had erected to sort of like demarcate the property line. (23m 19s): And like a, a van full of guys did end up coming and they got to the barrier, they realized they couldn’t get through. They like, they ended up leaving. And I, I remember like some just being like, oh, something is sort of like moving here and three women in our group three because like, this is a, a sacred number on the trinity. And they, they took these prayer shawls and that like, it’s important to be women because the Assemblies of God is, is like deeply sexist. And so they like brought these prayer shawls onto the campus and laid them out on the center lawn and then got arrested because they weren’t supposed to be there. And like you, I was like, oh, I can like see The Holy Spirit descending onto this campus and like, I couldn’t actually see it, right? (24m 6s): But like there was this like thing that was happening and the administrators and the students watching and the police and like the protestors and like months later we heard from students and parents of like various different schools along the way that were like, I saw what happened to you all. I transferred schools. I, like, I started talking to my administration, we started an underground gsa, like it stirred something up. And I remember thinking like, oh, maybe when the writers of the Bible said like The Holy Spirit dis descended upon Jesus like a dove there like wasn’t actually a Casper the ghost thing that you could see with your eyes that like literally floated down from heaven and at got onto Jesus, right? (24m 54s): Maybe the writers of the Bible had a same experience as me where like something big and epic happened that like seemed to be larger than the sum of its parts. And they like were grasping at language to describe what was happening. And the only thing that they could do was sort of like rise to this metaphor in the same way that it was like the flames of Pentecost were on this campus or this, or The Holy Spirit had come down upon us that I felt like I could see it, right? But I couldn’t actually see it. And so like, I think there’s a, like that whatever, like that thing is, I see it on the dance floor at queer clubs when I’m like on the sidelines getting a drink of water, like looking out at my friends dancing and kissing and hugging and making out and grinding. (25m 38s): It’s like something is moving here that is transcendent and sacred. And so like I think people throughout the ages have heard have called that still small voice that like nus like nudging of the conscious that sort of like energy in a room or a space or a protest or a revolution like that is The Holy Spirit moving. And so like hell yeah, I believe in that. Amen. Okay, so our next question is from Destiny. And Destiny recorded an audio, so we’re gonna listen to that now. Okay, so I remember one of you in previous episodes giving a new context for hell and hell isn’t what we think of it as today. (26m 24s): But my question is what then do you do with that, with the concept of Demons? I’m talking about like the whole possession knowledge. I dunno, I’m just curious what your thoughts are around that. Thanks. Okay, so question about Demons and possession. So I full caveat, I am obsessed with exorcism movies. My, one of my favorite book series is the Merely Watkins series, which is by Phil Rickman, which is about a episcopal priest in Wales who is also the diocesan exorcist. (27m 8s): Like I love this shit. And also I don’t actually believe in any of it. And so it feels like, it feels like an important distinction of like, you can enjoy paranormal shows, exorcism movies, like scary creepy things. Like if that’s your jam, like I don’t think that there’s anything necessarily wrong with that. And also I, I think that the idea of of Demons and possession is just really complicated and that probably like when, when it comes to talking about scripture, right? That I think probably in almost every passage that we have about Demons, there are like two things happening. (27m 53s): One is either someone is having a mental health crisis in a time when like mental health crises weren’t a thing or like we didn’t know how to categorize them or talk about them or write about them. And so I think think that that is like one thing or the idea of possession is being used as an analogy, an allegory for something political. Che Meyers in his book Binding the Strong Man talks about this a lot. We talked about it a lot when we did our, our our long series on the gospel of Mark. (28m 34s): So if you wanna like dive really deeply into some of the things about possession, we, we talked about it in that series, but like it often folks are talking about possession as living under empire, right? And they’re using that language as a way to talk about it subversively. And so I, I think that that is is important. That’s s episode, that’s episode 4 28 and it’s titled What’s the Deal with the Pigs Mark Week two if you’re looking for it right. Put a link in the show notes to this episode. Yeah. But yeah, I mean I I think that like there are things in the world that we can’t explain and that people sometimes have experiences that, that feel bigger than than them. (29m 22s): And like I, so I don’t wanna necessarily discount all of that out of hand, but I think like we have to be really careful when we’re talking about things like this because I think that like the idea of people, people being demon possessed is just really, really dicey and has been used to like, cause a lot of harm to people, especially marginalized people. And so like I think we just gotta be, we gotta be careful on that front. Yeah, I would, everything that you said so eloquently, I don’t have much to add other than to echo to, to sort of be mindful that you’re, that you’re not using or that other people aren’t using Demons and demon possession to dehumanize other people to remove their agency, to remove your agency. (30m 12s): It think it can also be like a way that folks let themselves off the hook, right? Like the devil got to me, right? It wasn’t me, it was the devil or a demon. And so like, it’s important that you take personal responsibility for whatever the things are that you did or that if like people are being mean to you, they, and that they try to use Demons or being possessed or the devil got to them as an excuse or justification for it. Like that’s, I don’t know if that feels like BS to me. And So just to to to be mindful of like your own, the importance of your own agency in the midst of all of this. But if it, it’s if those like, so like all of that, like, and also, I don’t know, given everything that’s going on in the world right now with like the Trump administration and Elon Musk and all that, like it does, it does sort of feel like there’s this sort of like battle of like powers and principalities playing out right now. (31m 5s): And so like if that sort of like language is like meaningful to you, cool, tap into that. But just like make sure that you like know how it’s being used and how you’re defining all the terms and that it’s, that it’s like moving you somewhere and not sort of like disconnecting you from your intuition, from your agency, from your wisdom. Alright, and we’ve got one more question. This is another one from Destiny and also we’re gonna listen to it now. What do you all think about the Divine Mercy prayer for context? I pray the Chapel of Divine Mercy. It what first used to me to pray for my dad because I was afraid he wouldn’t be in heaven. (31m 45s): And it was like my granny way of consoling me, but now it just kind of fell into a thing I do to commemorate a day when I’m grieving someone. My dad dealt with an opioid addiction And I was back in a lot more scared for his soul than I am now. All right, so Brian, what do you, what do you think about this divine mercy prayer and praying for praying in Grief and praying for people who have departed? I love it. The first thing that comes to me is just like, it’s really lovely that you found something that is like meaningful for you to help you move through your Grief. (32m 32s): And so like, if that’s working for you, like yes, pay attention to that. Shannon And I are both big proponents of virtual for all sorts of aspects of our lives. And like this is an example of a ritual. We have more information about virtuals and how you can build your own inside of spiritual study hall. Again, that’s Queer Theology dot com slash community to find out more information. But I, and also I’m just sort of struck that like, this is a thing that lots of traditions have like figured out that like Grief, like death is enormous and Grief is hard and having some things to help move you through that, it is powerful. (33m 14s): It reminds me of Judaism, we say the mourner’s Scottish for a year after a person dies traditionally every single day for a year after a person dies, and then every year on the anniversary of their death. And like, I think that probably thousands of years ago, and maybe still today amongst like some orthodox and super super, super religious Jews, there’s this sense that like, you ha it’s, it’s an the obligation of their survivors to pray the mors Kaddish on behalf of the deceased person so as to like ensure that they get to heaven. Jews, most Jews these days like don’t really believe in heaven in this, in that sort of like way anymore. (33m 56s): And certainly don’t believe that. Like if no one prays for you, you’re not gonna get to, to get into heaven. I, And I think like many Jews now recognize that like it’s mostly for us, like we, we do this thing to help us move through this process and also as a way to honor these people and to keep their memory alive. And so like you’re also like not alone in like being like afraid of the, the FTA that your dad’s soul, right? And wanting to do something, to pray a prayer on this side of death to help your dad out. That’s a beautiful impulse. I think the message that I would give is that like your dad is like, okay, and you don’t have to worry that your prayers will get him into heaven or that your prayers will keep him out of heaven or that like he didn’t get into heaven because it’s something that he did. (34m 47s): I just really don’t think that that’s the way, like heaven and hell works. And also like if this is something that is like honoring of your father and meaningful to you, then like that’s a beau I think it’s a beautiful practice. And I say mourner’s, Kaddish for my, my best friend who is sort of like the heart of our chosen family. I, I view him as a sibling. It’s like every year in the anniversary of his death, I say kadish for him because like, ’cause like, we need, we need tools like this. And so like, absolutely. It’s beautiful. Yeah, I I fully agree with all of that. I, I remember, I think it was Marcus Bork who said something like, you know, I, I don’t know what happens after we die, but I trust that the love that held us in life continues to hold us after, after death. (35m 28s): Mm. And and that to me, I, I used to really think that like you couldn’t pray for those who departed. But there, there was also Madeline Engel, I think had had this quote where she was talked about, she’s like, I don’t stop loving someone after they die. So like, of course I’m going to continue to pray for them because like I continue to still love them. And I think that was really helpful for me in, in realizing that, again, like, it, it feels like it’s mostly for me, right? Like it’s, I am, I am I am praying for this person that I love who isn’t here any longer And I don’t necessarily know that it’s doing anything for them, but I definitely know that it’s doing something for me and it’s connecting me and reminding me of them and the love that I had for them and the love that they had for me when they were still alive. (36m 20s): And like, I think that that’s a really beautiful thing. And I think whatever helps us to move through Grief is really important, right? Grief is a tricky, tricky beast and it, it’s not linear and it’s not clean and it’s not any of those things. And so like rituals can help ground us in that. And like Brian said, you know, I, I think that, I think that we don’t have to do it out of a sense of anxiety that if we do it wrong or we don’t pray it enough or we whatever, that this person won’t be cared for. Like, I think that we have to let, we have to let go of that kind of pressure and anxiety. (37m 1s): But this sense of using prayer as a connective tool, as a way to move through Grief as a, a reminder of love and connection, I think that that’s a beautiful and healthy and really powerful thing. And for you, destiny, if you’re worried that your dad is in hell, or if any, to anyone listening your life, if, if you’re worried that someone who has died has like maybe gone to hell or that you might go to hell, or that if they were to die, they would go to hell. That is a really terrifying thought and like, understandably, understandably, super worrisome. And so we have an episode as part of our scary Things you might have learned in Church series all about like, will you end up in hell? And so it might be helpful to sort of revisit that topic. That’s episode number 4 26 and the title is Scary Things. (37m 42s): Will You End Up in Hell if you wanna sort of tackle this topic of hell and people ending up there, head on On. All right. And just as a reminder, if you have a question that you want us to answer on the podcast, go to Queer Theology dot com slash podcast. There are a couple of different ways that you can submit questions, you can submit them in writing or through a a voice note. We would love to tackle your question on an upcoming episode. And until then, we will see you next time. See you next week. The Queer Theology podcast is just one of many things that we do at Queer Theology dot com, which provides resources, community, and inspiration for LGBTQ Christians and straight cisgender supporters. To Dive into more of the action, visit us at Queer Theology dot com. (38m 23s): You can also connect with us online on Facebook, Twitter, Tumblr, and Instagram. We’ll see you next week. The post Grief, Demons, Agnostics at Church: Listener Q&A appeared first on Queer Theology.

Fr. Shannon shares a sermon exploring the story of Doubting Thomas from the Gospel of John for this episode. He delves into themes of fear, doubt, and faith, emphasizing the importance of acknowledging doubt as a natural part of faith, particularly in the face of suffering and uncertainty. May we be a little more like Thomas in the sense that it feels like he was being reasonable. And may we embrace our doubts and continue to show up for our communities, promoting peace and justice despite challenges.   Takeaways Doubt is a natural part of faith. Thomas’s demand for proof is reasonable. Historical context is crucial for understanding scripture. Fear can lead to isolation and doubt. Jesus offers peace in times of fear. Community support is vital during struggles. Faith can coexist with questions and uncertainty. Showing up for others is an act of faith. We are loved despite our doubts. Our actions for justice matter, even when we doubt.   Chapters (03:46) Exploring Fear and Doubt   (06:32) Historical Context of the Gospel of John   (09:46) Thomas’s Reasonable Doubt   (12:36) Faith Amidst Suffering and Questions   (15:25) Benediction and Reflection on Doubt   Resources: Join our online community at  Sanctuary Collective Community    If you want to support the Patreon and help keep the podcast up and running, you can learn more and pledge your support at patreon.com/queertheology   This transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors or omissions. (9s): Welcome to the Queer Theology Podcast. I’m Brian G Murphy. And I’m father Shannon, T l Kearns. We’re the co-founders of Queer Theology dot com and your hosts from Genesis, revelation. The Bible declares good news to LGBTQ plus people, and we want to show you how Tuning each week on Sunday for conversations about Christianity, queerness and transness, and how they can enrich one another. We’re glad you’re here. Hello and welcome back to the Queer Theology Podcast. Today we’re gonna do something a little bit different, and I’m gonna offer a sermon based on John 20 verses 19 through 31. You’ll recognize this. This is the passage famously known as the Doubting Thomas passage, and this is a new take on it. (50s): So let’s start by reading John 20. It was still the first day of the week. That evening while the disciples were behind closed doors because they were afraid of the Jewish authorities, Jesus came and stood among them. He said, peace be with you. After he said this, he showed them his hands and his side. When the disciples saw the Lord, they were filled with joy. Jesus said to them, again, peace be with you as the Father sent me so I am sending you. Then he breathed on them and said, receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone’s sins, they are forgiven. If you don’t forgive them, they aren’t forgiven. Thomas, the one called Didymus, one of the 12, wasn’t with the disciples. When Jesus came, the other disciples told him, we’ve seen the Lord, but he replied, unless I see the nail marks in his hands, but my finger in the wounds left by the nails and put my hand into his side. (1m 38s): I won’t believe after eight days, his disciples were again in the house and Thomas was with them. Even though the doors were locked, Jesus entered and stood among them. He said, peace be with you. Then he said to Thomas, put your finger here. Look at my hands. Put your hand into my side. No more disbelief. Believe Thomas responded to Jesus, my Lord and my God. Jesus replied, do you believe because you see me happier? Those who don’t see and yet believe, then Jesus did. Many other miraculous signs in his disciples presence, signs that aren’t recorded in the scroll, but these things are written so that you will believe that Jesus is the Christ God’s son, and that believing you will have life in his name. (2m 23s): I was kind of a nervous kid. Maybe it was growing up with a steady diet of people talking about the imminent return of Jesus or the threat of hell, or the ridiculousness of eighties satanic panic or growing up in a rural area where there were strange sounds at night and the darkness felt impenetrable, And I was a sensitive child attuned to the moods of everyone around me, which meant I was often afraid And I tried to overpower that fear with faith. If I could just do all of the right things, I would be okay. If I could just believe harder, believe all the right things, I’d be filled with favor. I remember distinctly hearing today’s story from the gospel of John growing up, every sermon focusing on Thomas’s doubt and saying how wrong he was. (3m 10s): Every sermon too, focusing on the line you believe because you have seen, but blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe, and the pastor would encourage us all that the writer was talking about us. We were the ones who hadn’t seen and yet believed, and so we better keep believing or else, okay. They didn’t say it quite like that, but that’s how it sounded to a nervous kid sitting in a pews. So what do we do with this story? What do we do with doubt and faith and poor old Thomas? Now, some of you might be looking around a sanctuary that you’re sitting in, which was really full on Easter and is well less full this week and patting yourself on the back because you showed up on the weeks after Easter. (3m 55s): You are obviously full of faith, but maybe even as you sit there in the pew or listen to this podcast, you are feeling these secret doubts nagging at you, wondering why things are so hard, wondering why you’re suffering the way you are. Wondering why it feels like there is silence from God. You look around at the world and you see the violence. You see the inequality, you see the suffering, and you wonder what good faith is and where is God in the midst of all of this struggling. But then you feel guilty for feeling those things, chastising yourself for your lack of faith, feeling like if you just believed harder or did more or prayed with more fervor, then God would show up for you. (4m 41s): You feel caught between your desire for faith and your very real doubt, and you worry that the Bible condemns you at every turn. So let’s look at the story from John 20. It can be easy sometimes when we know a story really well to gloss over the details. Yeah, yeah. We know this. We’ve heard this a million times before, but as we enter into a text that might be well known, let’s try to see it anew. The Easter story ends on a triumphant note. Jesus is risen, risen, hallelujah. But today’s story starts back in a place of fear. Jesus’. Friends and followers are huddled together, hiding in a locked room. (5m 22s): They haven’t yet received the good news of the resurrection in their minds, in their bodies and souls. They are in a place of despair and fear. Their friend, their leader has been killed and they’re afraid there. Next, it’s important for us to start there to sit with them for a moment in that place of fear. And just a note on some historical context before we go further, the gospel of John was the last of the gospels to be written about 20 to 30 years later than the other gospels. It’s drawing not only on a large body of oral history and testimony, but also on a theological base that was still evolving and changing. It was also written in a community that was separating further and further from the Jewish communities. (6m 7s): It had started out belonging to as these divides deepened and conflict grew, we see more and more blame cast on Jewish authorities in John whereas other earlier gospels more rightly blamed Rome. We have to center our understanding of this anti-Jewish sentiment in its context. These stories were written by folks and two folks still who still considered themselves Jewish, but who had probably been expelled from their Jewish communities. After the destruction of the temple by Rome, these Jewish people who were now devoted to Jesus were angry at what they felt was an unfair expulsion from their home communities. So they lashed out at the religious leaders. So on the one hand, this is an intercommunal argument written by a group that considered themselves still part of the Jewish faith. (6m 53s): On the other hand, at the time this was, this text was written, both of these communities, the Jewish communities and this new community of Jewish Jesus followers were both marginalized communities under the occupation of Rome. So we have to be really careful when we read and speak about these texts today in our context, which is very different, and where especially in the United States, the Christian Church is dominant and Jewish communities are still marginalized and oppressed. We also come to these texts with centuries of antisemitism, often done in the name of Christianity, and using these very texts as justification of that bias. The writer of the gospel of John is writing to a very specific community with very specific concerns, and sometimes those concerns get heard differently. (7m 41s): The further we get from their context, the further we get from their context. So we have to tread with care. So this specific community existing a generation after Jesus’ death and resurrection, trying to keep the faith as they are isolated and alienated from the communities they once called home are also afraid. They would’ve identified with those terrified disciples locked into that room wondering where it had all gone so wrong. And let’s note too that while the women were going to the garden to bear witness and to attend to Jesus’ body, these men were hiding away. The men were giving into their fear. They’re hiding away. (8m 21s): They’re in a locked room, and it’s in this place, in these circumstances that Jesus appears to them and his first words are peace be with you. These are people who needed to be offered peace. Jesus offers them peace and then reinstates their mission. As God has sent me, now I am sending you, he gives them the Holy Spirit by breathing on them. It’s as if he’s saying, get out of this room, get back to work. The mission isn’t over. Jesus is telling his friends that they are to carry on What he started. Started. Then we’re told that Thomas wasn’t with them when Jesus appeared, we don’t know why. (9m 1s): We don’t know where he was, but he comes back and the disciples tell him what he’s missed, and Thomas basically says, unless I see him for myself, I’m not going to believe I need to see that Jesus is alive. I need to see that he’s the same person by seeing the wounds in his hand and side, I need to see Thomas gets a lot of flack for this. Here we are over 2000 years later and we’re still calling the guy doubting Thomas, and it’s easy to focus on Thomas’s disbelief, his desire to see it for himself, his demand for physical proof. It’s easy too, because of how we’ve often been taught the story to blame Thomas to say he’s being unreasonable to say he should have trusted his friends in their story to say he should have trusted God. (9m 49s): It’s easy to blame Thomas for his doubt and say, we would’ve been different. But as I’m reading this text, again, there’s a part of me that wonders if Thomas is the only one who’s being reasonable. Thomas wasn’t willing to just believe because he’d been told to. Thomas wasn’t willing to get swept up in popular opinion. Thomas was looking around and saying, I need to actually see. I need some proof. And it makes me wonder too, where Thomas was while the others were hiding. It makes me wonder if he was out there trying to keep things going, if he was checking on other people, if he was continuing to spread the message. (10m 31s): It makes me wonder if while people were hiding, he was working, he was being brave. We don’t know of course, but I wonder, And I wonder if the writer of the story felt guilty and wanted to take Thomas down a notch or two, it wouldn’t be the first time. We’ve seen a dig like that in the Bible and even in the gospels as rival communities tried to tell the story that made their founders look the best. What if we consider Thomas as behaving reasonably? How does that change how we read the story? So now it’s eight days later, the disciples are again in a place with locked doors, pay attention to that Jesus has appeared to them, given them a mission, given them the Holy Spirit, and they’re still hiding. (11m 17s): They’re still behind locked doors, and we’re gonna say, Thomas is the one dropping the ball. Thomas is the one who’s doubting. These other guys have seen Jesus. They’ve heard him give the continued missing mission and they’re still hiding. So now Jesus enters again. He again offers peace, and he offers Thomas the proof he asked for, and here’s what I find striking Thomas said before, unless I put my finger in the wounds, I won’t believe Jesus says, here you go, touch away. And Thomas doesn’t. He simply says, my Lord and my God. Now, this too is important because calling someone Lord in the time of Rome meant something. (12m 2s): It was a treasonous slogan If you were calling Jesus Lord, it was because you were saying Caesar wasn’t. So, Thomas not only immediately believes, but also offers a statement of belief that is stronger than anyone else. I also find it striking that Jesus was willing to give Thomas what he needed in order to believe He didn’t tell him. He shouldn’t have asked Jesus’s statement, do you believe because you see me happier? Those who don’t see and yet believe, while some people read it as sarcastic, it could just as easily be a statement of fact or a later addition to provide comfort to a community, a generation after Jesus’s time on earth, people who definitely hadn’t seen, and yet were still believing sometimes in our rush to move past hard feelings. (12m 49s): We intentionally or not shame people for being reasonable. I don’t know about you, but sometimes when I look around at the world, it’s easy to feel despair. It’s easy to feel hopeless. It’s easy to feel doubt when we see wars and threats of wars, when we see children getting sick and dying, when we experience the death of people close to us, when we see attacks on the vulnerable, when we see people filled with hatred, it’s easy to look around and ask, where is God? Where is God in all of this? Where is the hope? Where is the promise? In fact, to look squarely at the pain of the world and simply shrug our shoulders is the antithesis of being reasonable. (13m 31s): And yet, that’s what so many want to ask us to do. Just keep going. Keep your chin up. Keep the faith. God is in control. What if the reasonable thing to do, the faithful thing to do is to ask for some proof or at the very least, to acknowledge the pain and the suffering? Thomas waited for eight more days to see Jesus eight more days without the proof. But you know what? He stayed. He didn’t leave. He didn’t run off. He didn’t abandon them. He stayed in the midst of not knowing. In the midst of waiting for proof, in the midst of the questions, in the agony, he stayed. And that to me feels like the most faithful act of all to stay when it’s hard to show up when you don’t know how it’s going to turn out to keep doing the work, even when it doesn’t seem to be making any difference, to love to do justice, to promote peace, even in the face of all that’s hard, and sometimes it’s going to seem unreasonable, and sometimes we’re going to want to ask for proof or encouragement or a sign, and that’s okay. (14m 38s): So no matter what you’re feeling today, no matter what doubts you carry, no matter what despair you feel, no matter what situations, feel hopeless, show up like Thomas, filled with doubt, filled with questions, and willing to be there with your community. Anyway, we are not condemned by our doubt or shamed for our questions. We are loved in the midst of them, and still we show up still. We follow in the way of justice still. We follow in the way of the justice of Jesus. Still, we are given peace and we offer that peace to others still. We believe that nothing we do for the benefit of others, no matter how hopeless or unreasonable it seems, goes unnoticed or undone, it all matters. (15m 25s): So let us show up in all of our messiness with all of our questions, with all of our frailty. Let us show up and do good as best we know how. Amen. I offer today as a benediction, a prayer for our wounds from the Reverend Mike abuse. Thomas gets a bad rap, holed up in that room, hiding from harm. Everyone knows you shouldn’t believe everything you hear. So why do we dismiss his doubt? Trust but verify worthwhile rumors. Don’t mind being investigated. Justifiable. Faith doesn’t mind being substantiated. Not everything deserves your, not everyone deserves your vulnerability, but you still deserve to be touched no matter the depth of your skepticism or the depth of your pain. (16m 17s): Don’t preach, reach out and in the story isn’t over for worse and better. Let it stretch you like the scar you are. Perhaps we don’t need a solid savior, but rather a salve that simply tells the truth about the trauma and leaves room for us to hear the healing happening in the heartbreak. Amen. May you go in the peace of God, the love of Christ, and the power of the Holy Spirit. Amen. The Queer Theology Podcast is just one of many things that we do at Queer Theology dot com, which provides resources, community, and inspiration for BTQ Christians and straight cisgender supporters. To dive into more of the action, visit us at Queer Theology dot com. (16m 59s): You can also connect with us online on Facebook, Twitter, Tumblr, and Instagram. We’ll see you next week. The post Maybe Doubting Thomas Was The Only Reasonable One appeared first on Queer Theology.

We’re honored to have religious scholar, preacher, teacher, and activist, Rev. Dr. Wil Gafney on the pod this week. Rev. Dr. Gafney is a biblical scholar whose work focuses on translation of the scriptures for congregations and lay readers, womanist and feminist biblical interpretation and women who prophesied in ancient Israel and the ancient Afro-Asiatic world and their reception in rabbinic literature. She is the author and translator and wrote “Womanist Midrash: A Reintroduction to Women of the Torah and of the Throne” and its sequel, “Womanist Midrash: A Reintroduction to Women of Joshua Judges, Samuel and Kings.” She co-edited “The Peoples’ Bible” and “The Peoples’ Companion to the Bible.” Dr. Gafney is an Episcopal priest canonically resident in the Diocese of Pennsylvania and licensed in the Diocese of Texas and a former Army chaplain and congregational pastor in the AME Zion Church. Her lectures and sermons are widely sought after in academic and Jewish and Christian congregational spaces in the US and in the UK. In this conversation, Dr. Gaffney discusses the Womanist Midrash project, exploring the intersection of womanism and biblical interpretation. She emphasizes the importance of context in understanding scripture, the role of translation, and the significance of centering marginalized voices in religious narratives. Dr. Gaffney also introduces the Women’s Lectionary project, which aims to highlight women’s stories in the biblical text, and addresses the challenges of biblical illiteracy in contemporary faith communities.   Takeaways Midrash fills the spaces between the letters and gaps in the story. Womanism is invested in the wellbeing of the entire community. Biblical interpretation is not just about facts but about the stories that shape identity. Translation is inherently interpretative and should be approached with awareness. The Queen of Sheba’s story reveals the richness of shared religious traditions. Understanding context is crucial for interpreting biblical texts. The Women’s Lectionary project aims to center women’s voices in scripture. Marginalized voices enrich the understanding of biblical narratives. Biblical illiteracy can be addressed through guided reading programs. Engaging with scripture can be both devotional and academic.   Chapters (00:00) Introduction to Womanist Midrash (03:03) The Intersection of Womanism and Midrash (06:04) The Role of Translation in Biblical Interpretation (09:06) Exploring Biblical Stories: The Queen of Sheba (11:54) Understanding Context in Biblical Narratives (14:56) The Women’s Lectionary Project (17:56) The Impact of Centering Marginalized Voices (20:59) Navigating Biblical Illiteracy (23:56) Conclusion and Resources   Resources: Learn more about Rev. Dr. Wil Gafney at https://www.wilgafney.com/ Womanist Midrash Volume 2 by Rev. Dr. Wil Gafney Join our online community at  Sanctuary Collective Community   If you want to support the Patreon and help keep the podcast up and running, you can learn more and pledge your support at patreon.com/queertheology This transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors or omissions. (9s): Welcome to the Queer Theology Podcast. I’m Brian G Murphy. And I’m father Shannon, T l Kearns. We’re the co-founders of Queer Theology dot com and your hosts from Genesis, revelation. The Bible declares good news to LGBTQ plus people, and we want to show you how Tune in each week on Sunday for conversations about Christianity, queerness and transness, and how they can enrich one another. We’re glad you’re here. Okay. Full fanboy disclosure alert. Shannon And I have been wanting to get today’s guest on the podcast for many, many years, and today is finally the day. I’m so excited to share this conversation with you with Dr. Will Gaffney. We had a really powerful conversation about sacred stories and sacred communities and the intersections between those two. (56s): How to see ourselves in those stories and in the traditions, and to really look at the importance of going, looking for people that have always been there, but that perhaps the dominant powers straight, cis, white, male, European, have tried to silence or play down, or I ignore. They’re so, so, so, so, so many insights from this conversation. I think you’ll hear me say summary here, that we could keep on going for a, you know, a few more hours. There’s just so much to dig into. So after the episode, pop on over to our Instagram and leave a comment on this post for what was your most meaningful insight from today’s conversation, because I know there are just so many. (1m 36s): It is a jam packed conversation. Today we’re joined by the Reverend Dr. Will Gaffney, who is a biblical scholar whose work focuses on translation of the scriptures for congregations and lay readers, womanist and feminist biblical interpretation, and women who prophesied in ancient Israel and the ancient Afro Asiatic world and their reception in rabbinic literature. She’s the right Reverend Sam b Halsey, professor of Hebrew Bible at the Bright Divinity School in Fort Worth, Texas. She’s the author of a Woman’s Lectionary for the whole church years A, B, and C, and a novel year W, which is a standalone volume and translator of its biblical selections. (2m 17s): She’s also the author of a Womanist Midrash, A Reintroduction to Women of the Torah and of the Throne, and its sequel Womanist Midrash, A Reintroduction to Women of Joshua Judges, Samuel and Kings. She co-edited the People’s Bible and the People’s Companion to the Bible. Dr. Gafney is an Episcopal priest, canonically resident in the Diocese of Pennsylvania and licensed in the Diocese of Texas, and a former Army chaplain and congregational pastor in the AME Zion Church, a former member of the Dorsha Dera Reconstructionist Minion of Germantown Jewish Center in Philadelphia. She has co-taught courses with and for constructionist Rabbi Seminary pa. (2m 60s): Her lectures and sermons are widely sought after in academic and Jewish and Christian congregational spaces in the US and in the UK. She’s a public facing religious scholar, preacher, teacher activist, and an amateur watercolorist. Thank you so much for being here with us today. Dr. Gaffney, Thank you so much for joining us on the podcast. We’re so excited to talk about your work and introduce hopefully more people to it. So thanks for being here. My pleasure. I’d love to start by asking if you can just tell us a little bit about the Womanist Midrash Project. You know, how did that project come about? And maybe for folks in our audience who might not know what Mid Rush is, if you can give a brief description or definition of that. (3m 41s): Alright. Mid is a Jewish classical practice of biblical interpretation that continues into the present and it has delineated rules for rabbinic literature, and in the contemporary context, it has become much more wide open. One way to think about biblical interpretation in this context is to imagine a page of Torah if you’ve seen one or even a page of your own scriptures, and think about the letters and the spaces between them. (4m 24s): Midrash fills the spaces between the letters and gaps in the story, making stories more complete, rich and full. I did study rabbinic literature in my PhD program with Jewish faculty members, And I spent a decade as a member of a synagogue while I was teaching in Philadelphia, and I’m now a member of one here. And I say that to make it clear that this is not an opportunistic, but that I am not appropriating a Jewish practice, but rather in some contemporary modes of thought in Jewish scholarship and Jewish biblical interpretation, sermon writing, that anytime anyone expounds on the Hebrew scripture, they are doing midrash. (5m 24s): So that, that’s a brief overview of the origins and contemporary use of midrash. Womanism is black feminism, a feminism that is richer, deeper, thicker, and more complex, while classic white women’s feminism really centered on breaking through power structures, getting a place at the table, black women’s feminism womanism is much more comprehensive. It is invested in the wellbeing of the entire community and it centers black women’s thoughts and experiences because if a policy is not good for black women than it is not good for anyone, womanism will look at the complex array of identities, often focusing on two or three in a particular project while attentive to the intersectional harm that comes from the way the dominant culture wields its force against those identities. (6m 41s): That, by the way, is the proper definition of intersectional, the harms that accrue as a result of the different identities not having multiple identities. Yeah, yeah. So then, then you embarked on this bringing these two ideas and fears of, of knowledge together in the Womanist Midrash project. And I’m wondering if you can talk a little bit about, you know, how that came to be and and what your hope is for that project. Really, they came together in me as a biblical interpreter because of my roots in the black church. (7m 24s): I was very familiar with the preaching practice known as the sanctified imagination. And when I began to study biblical interpretation as a scholar, I intuited that the sanctified imagination was an indigenous form of mid rash, if you will, that it was the way black folk interpreted scripture, particularly black preachers who were brought up in the black church, and they had a lot of similarities in their storytelling aspect. So it was natural for me to fuse my academic work with my religious life. (8m 8s): That’s a very common practice among black folk in the religious academy. We are more often than not, practitioners of a faith tradition, and even those who are now outside of a faith tradition tend to remain on good terms with it, and it informs their own work. So the way that I attend to biblical translation, which became something that I found that I loved and would become a hallmark of my own scholarship, focused on getting everybody on the page in the story with my first book, women Prophets, daughters of Miriam Women Prophets in Ancient Israel. (8m 56s): Because when we say the word prophets or the corresponding Hebrew word ne, it’s a collective. And so many of the biblical expressions have been translated in virtually 1960s English as mankind. Some old Bibles, you’ll see the Sons of Israel. Well, they didn’t leave the daughters behind. So I began translating in a way that made it clear. So for those expressions that were called masculine, plural, I, I renamed them as common plural because they were grammatically, the rules of grammar are you have to have at least two people, and only one of them has to be male. (9m 42s): But just as an English grammar, I could say to a bunch of women, you guys, let’s go biblical Hebrew does that, and Naomi uses masculine form for Ruth and Opa when there are no males among them. So I would translate something like the Children of Israel, which you would see in a lot of Bibles or the Israelites, but I found those to be unsatisfying, And I started writing The Women, children and men of Israel. So then I would need to explain in my writing why my translations of the scriptures look different from other people’s. (10m 22s): And that combination of translation and explanation, deep linguistic based exegesis, and then telling a story about the character, those became the key components of Womanist Midrash. Hmm. Yeah, this is a little bit of like a, it may be in the weeds, I’m Jewish, and it, it just like what you’re doing like reminds me of how I think like in Christianity there’s sort of like this focus on sort of like getting the translation like exactly right. And is arguing over translations. And if you read any sidor, there’s like the Hebrew and the English, and they’re like basically the same thing, but like sometimes they’re not exactly the same thing. (11m 5s): Sometimes they’re like wildly different. Like I think that, and, But we all, there’s for millennia we’ve called these translations because there’s a recognition that all translation inherently is interpretation. And so I just like love that what you’re doing, like you were saying, like adds more nuance and color and depth to the, to the text. But part of the baked in antisemitism of the Western Enlightment Biblical Guild is that they were scholars and scientists and not moved by religion, and that they could determine what the precise translation was, unlike the people before them who laid claim to the text. (11m 49s): And so there’s a lot of this, we know what we’re doing with your text and we’re right baked in. And my early academic career was sort of under the umbrella that translation should be without interpretation, which is yeah. You know, impossible and nonsensical. So it was brushing up against that. That’s also easier to understand in Judaism because you are very much aware that the text, and indeed half the liturgy depending on what kind of Jewish community you belong to is in another language. (12m 28s): It’s been a joke, but it’s also true that there are Christians who have not known that the scriptures they read have been translated from other languages. Yeah. You know, people who not only just say that, you know, the King James is, is perfect and itself revealed from heaven, but you know, think that Jesus spoke English and yeah, for that matter was a white person and all this, this kind of thing. So one of the lectures I give now regularly is called the Invisibility of Translation, where I introduce people to translation and how it affects the text that they read. (13m 9s): And it’s always an eye-opening experience and shock and some other things. Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah, I would, I would love to listen to that lecture. I feel like that would be so good for so many people. Well, it, there’s probably, there’s probably a version of it on will gaffney.com. Okay. I tend to post my things after the event. Great, great. I’m curious, as you were doing this, this Midrash project, what maybe some of your favorite stories were to dive into or the ones that maybe revealed something new that you hadn’t noticed before? (13m 52s): Oh my goodness, so much. In so many, especially now that there are two volumes. So I’ll, I’ll say something about the second volume. I decided to do The Queen of Sheba, and she can only be done properly with, she appears a little bit in the Quran, but it’s the hadit where her, the big part of her story is. But even bigger than that, in the Ethiopian sacred tradition, there’s basically an entire sacred work that tells the story of her encounter with Solomon and their child and all of these things. (14m 39s): So I put all of that together, that Keppra Nagas from Ethiopia, the Haddi from Islam, the Hebrew Bible, and a little bit of New Testament, she’s named a couple of times in the gospels. And so that was a different project because I was working with a whole lot of source material. And some of it is quite humorous. The, there is a tradition in the Haddi that the world’s first depilatory hair removing cream was invented for her because Solomon was dismayed by the amount of hair on her legs, which became visible when someone did something sneaky and had her walk over a surface that was smooth, reflective water, and they saw up her dress a little bit. (15m 35s): So, you know, those kind of things are humorous, but it calls us to recognize that this is a shared religious tradition, and our scriptural version of the story is only one ancient version. And people at the point when all of this literature was extant at the same time, very likely entertained the multiple sources together. The way we entertain multiple gospels that can’t even get their story straight about the resurrection, which is kind of the thing, right? Yeah. How many angels, Mary, Peter, John, who was running, who was there, who she was there clinging onto him by himself, at what point did she leave? (16m 22s): Did Peter run then where did the other angel go? I mean, it’s like a car wreck where you’re trying to get the same story out of the witnesses, but people will tell you with sincerity in their eyes that there are no contradictions in scripture. Yeah. We’re always like, it starts with Genesis one and two. Like they, they have different orders of creation. Like, come on, come on. I remember studying theology in undergraduate and learning about, oh, like the Jesus seminar where they were sort of like trying to just like get at like what was the real Jesus, right. And what was later on. (17m 3s): And I think that feels connected to this sort of like, project of white academia. And I, And I, but I, I know that for many people in our audience, they’re like, well, what actually happened in the Bible? Or which version of the story is correct? And can you just like talk a little bit about like what happened when you held all these different versions of these stories together? Not with the goal of like, well, which, which version was right, but sort of like what happens in the synergy amongst all the different tellings. And, and you, you also kind of hinted that this happens with amongst the gospels also. Like how do you, like, how, what do you make of these different versions of the stories and what sort of bubbles up from there? (17m 44s): Well, there’s a saying that I use in class, A text without a context is a pretext. Ooh. In order to understand the text, you have to understand the context. Just as a person who hadn’t been exposed to the speech or the character would not know what we meant by four score and 20 years ago, right? You’re in part of the American context, either by your education or by living and being raised in it, so you know what to do with those words. But if you are not a part of ancient Afro culture, you’re not a part of ancient Israelite culture and religion, which is not Judaism. (18m 31s): Judaism derives from it. But there are different religions, different cultural practices to some degree, different languages. The differences between modern Hebrew and biblical Hebrew, our legion, a whole present tense was invented for modern Hebrew. Biblical Hebrew doesn’t have one. So in knowing that context, one of the things that you’ll know, and this does apply to the gospels, this applies to antiquity. They were not a fact-based era of, of being, people told the things that were important to them in a narrative to compel and convince you. (19m 22s): They were not interested in what would be a hallmark of the post-enlightenment, just the facts. So you see differences across gospels, between gospels and epistles. Paul just mixed stuff up. My favorite one was what? That Sarah bowed and called Abraham Lord. Well, that’s not in there. He took a story of a verse in Deuteronomy about the commandments. And because this commandment was referred to as this word, he goes, oh, that’s Jesus. (20m 9s): And when it’s clearly clear, it’s very clear that it’s at the end of Moses giving not just the commandments, but retelling all of Israel’s story in a way that doesn’t line up with the previous books of the Torah, by the way. Yep. And Moses is saying, keep all of this, this whole thing, this word, this word of God, that whole thing is not Jesus. There’s a relationship between them, but not the same. So the way that people who are earnestly and faithfully and sincerely telling the most amazing story and experience they’ve ever heard, and the ancestral stories that are important to pass down to the children is not even intended to be read as factual as we say today. (21m 5s): Certainly not literally. So people make straw houses out of the, the bricks of scripture by trying to read them in ways that they were not intended to be read missing. Thank you. Stephen Colbert, the truthiness, I use that word with my students. What is the truthiness of the Exodus story? If there is no archeological evidence and there isn’t that 2 million people stomp through the desert going that way. The truthiness is that this is a foundational narrative that shapes Israelite identity and subsequently provides a basis for faith, for African slaves in the us and subsequently becomes a paradigm for coming out of the closet for gay folk. (22m 1s): And subsequently becomes, it holds all these truths in it. The archeological piece is irrelevant. Ooh. Yeah. Amen to that. I think there’s also some arrogance to like, to think that we now get outta objective truth, and we don’t do that anymore. Like you turn on Fox News versus CNN versus NBC, right? Like we’re, even today news is propaganda history books are written by the victor. Like it’s just like we’re, we’re, we’re still doing that. We just maybe kind of like dress it up in the guise of objectivity, right? (22m 43s): Sure. But this notion of literal scripture and truth comes down from what we call plantation religion, that it’s important to have an irrefutable source and an irrefutable hierarchy. And so those kind of readings were used Not just to, to invade, invent the American’s slovo, but also to set up these colonizing empires that presaged it. So these were strategic readings that would confer Godlike power on monarchs. (23m 30s): Nevermind they weren’t in the Israelite Judean monarchy family history. But now all of a sudden, all the crown heads of Europe are divinely anointed heads of the church, et cetera, et cetera. Well, except back to the point where you had popes, but you get this divine authority that becomes unquestionable and particularly for the, the Western church and the Western powers gets fused with scripture. There’s a thing in, in British history, well, you know, the national song is O Jerusalem. (24m 13s): There aren’t, they aren’t anywhere near Jerusalem, right? Yeah. And there’s a thing that the European wave of painting biblical characters as Caucasian wasn’t just, every culture gets to see God and the holy people in their image. But there is a period that the faces of the monarchs were used for the faces of the saints and the biblical characters to make a, a claim on divinity themselves. And then that became a very powerful witness to people who were not literate. That’s what stained glass did. (24m 54s): It told us the story of the scriptures that people could see when they couldn’t read themselves. And so there’s this fusing of monarchial identity and biblical authority. This is all just making me think like we talk a lot as part of our project of that storytelling is the way to change people’s hearts and minds that, you know, people can debate facts, but they can’t debate your story. And it also brings in this thing of like, it’s so important that we pay attention to the stories that we’re telling about ourselves as both as individuals and as a people. (25m 35s): Because those stories really impact our ethics and how we live our lives. And you know, we’re seeing that kind of writ large in the United States right now. So, so thank you for, for bringing out this, this piece of stories. I think it’s so, so important. Can, can you tell us, you also have this, this women’s lectionary project, which is both the, the cycle of lectionary texts, but then also a, a standalone year. And we started this podcast to do a queer reading of the Lectionary every Sunday. And we did that for a couple times through, and then decided we were gonna take a break from the lectionary for a while. (26m 15s): Yeah. But I’m wondering if you could talk a little bit about why that project and maybe what you felt was missing in kind of the quote unquote traditional lectionary that, that you wanted to create something different for folks Women. That’s the answer. Yeah. Well, you, you can restart with the lectionary because after we finish this year, your A will be up and you can start with a women’s lectionary. Yeah, yeah. I was preparing to preach, I don’t know what the RCL texts were, but they were wholly inadequate. (27m 5s): And I went on Facebook and Twitter and whined about them And I tweeted something like, what would it look like if someone built electionary around women’s stories? I have the exact wording somewhere. I have the tweet archived as an image. ’cause God knows what’s gonna happen with that site. Yeah. And everybody got in my mentions and responses, you do it, Dr. Gaffney, you do it. I was writing a grant for an extended sabbatical, and it was not going well because I found myself writing what I think they might want to hear to just give me the money so I can get this sabbatical, which is, you know, not a passion project that’s a failing and flailing desperation project. (28m 3s): So I just started scribbling it out and then I couldn’t stop writing. And that, and the timing was perfect, that that happened in 17. They did their considerations and made the awards in 18, And I had 2019 the entire 12 months to do the consultations, travel, get away to write, do all of that before I was locked in my house for three years. Yeah, yeah. The blessing is I didn’t lose that sabbatical year to covid. I had it. So that was 2019. (28m 43s): And in 2021 I published both the standalone and year a ’cause that’s all I was doing, you know, teaching class online of course. And then this is, so it was, and then B in the summer of 23 and see in the summer of 24. And what the lectionary does is it raises the whole thing to the ground as much as possible. I am an Episcopal priest And I wanted it to be particularly useful for those with the similar structure. So I didn’t wanna do a New Testament, an Old Testament, because that would limit it to who could use it. (29m 28s): So I had to have a first reading from the Hebrew Bible, a psalm or Canticle and epistle. Oh, I’m talking with my fingers And I can’t see them. This was, this was my trial during Covid because I talk with my hands And I learned to talk with my hands all the way up here. Yeah, yeah. All the way up here. Okay, three, Three, top up my face. So we’re up to the epistle and of course the gospel. And then, because I’m a Hebrew biblical scholar who specializes in translation, translation notes, so the preacher could, or the person reading devotional could immediately see why did that verse look like that? Oh wait, she says it right here. (30m 9s): Okay. You know, and then there are preaching prompts from people who’ve read a whole cycle and said, I never thought about these texts together. I’m still reeling over that translation. I don’t even know where to begin. I got you. The lectionary was characterized by being Hebrew Bible driven as much as possible. The asterisk with that are that we’re reading a for a Christian calendar sequence. And I really try to negotiate and hold a tension of how Hebrew Bible is used by the Christian Church. (30m 52s): And I wanted to demonstrate that it’s not a magic eight ball predicting Jesus. Right. So yeah, for example, I started with advent and instead of saying, what’s a Hebrew Bible text that works for advent, I thought about the story that we tell an advent and the annunciation is a huge part of it. Don’t get me started on why we tell the annunciation in December and not in March takes nine months to make a baby. But the Marian Annunciation in the New Testament is not a new thing. (31m 33s): This is something God did regularly in the Hebrew Bible. And so that notion that let me teach people Bible, let me see if, if I can take a chunk out of biblical illiteracy in the church, especially with the way they use the Hebrew Bible that can be super secessionist and co-opting and all of these things. So the four weeks of Advent had three Hebrew Bible annunciations, and then Mary’s annunciation building that pattern. So I wanted to translate in a way that people could hear everyone on the page. So the crowd surrounded Jesus, the crowd of women, children, and men. (32m 17s): And so then you find out that women are in all of these places. ’cause what’s a crowd? Everybody outdoors. So it has to have all kinds of people. Those translations, Joshua Annihilate, annihilated the Canaanites, women, children, and men reads very differently when you’re just saying, you know, Canaanites parasites hit tides, hitite, you know, all the ites. Then you start to come to account of the layers of genocidal violence in the text. So I picked hard pairings sometimes on Good Friday we read the Death of J’s daughter at the hands of her father, and we read the crucifixion story and we think about what it means to claim the death of a child as a religious necessity. (33m 22s): How horribly that can go wrong, how horribly that’s gone wrong in Christianity. So that’s the, the broad structure one, there are two other unique pieces with it. And that is I decided to use the female pronoun in the Psalms for people who have never heard God presented as themselves or as other than themselves. And because of the way that the title Lord functions as a slave holding title, I look to Jewish tradition, which does not say the divine name, it’s not knowable, it’s not pronounceable, but instead said Lord, not as God’s name, but as the thing you say, because you can’t say God’s name that got lost somewhere. (34m 16s): And that there are other things you can say like Hashem and Ham. Mako. And I developed a whole list of divine titles, some drawn from my experience from the black church, like the arc of safety, others drawn from the work of a Rabbi Rosenberg, things like wellspring of life. I made them explicitly feminine places, womb of creation. So all of those components characterize the lectionary, the women’s lectionary, a women’s lectionary for the whole church. (34m 58s): Yeah. So powerful. We, we had coherent Ro Shapiro on a few months ago and, and they also have a list of names for God. And I took a, an online course with them, and when I was reading through theirs, I was like, oh, just like thinking about all of the different ways to think about God, like womb of creation. Oh my God, that like really hit me. It’s just like so much richer than like, Lord God, you know, even like be universe. Right. Which sometimes in progressive spaces would be like creator. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. So it, it’ll be interesting to see if where we’ve come up with some of the same names. (35m 38s): Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Totally. I’m wondering if you can talk a little bit about what changes for a congregation, for a people when voices that voices are centered that maybe they’re not used to having centered, you know, we talk a a lot about how queer and trans theology and readings of scripture aren’t just good for queer and trans folks. They’re good for cis and straight folks as well. I’m wondering if you can just reflect on that a little bit. Well, that was one of the basic underlying principles of the lectionary, that there are something like 111 named women in the Hebrew Bible and only 52 weeks a year. (36m 29s): So there was no reason for the RCL to be as male focused as it was. And so the of the texts I was putting together in these different ways were all texts with women, or that addressed women, or as close as I could get them. So they were, these congregations were then hearing the gospel through stories of women, many of whom they never knew existed. They’re hearing the First Testament told through other people. And under the principle that we as women and other folk who were not identified at the time were supposed to have gotten the gospel right by only listening to stories of men. (37m 14s): Well then surely it worked the other way around. And I did that with gender in the lectionary. But it’s also the case that as my theology professor Kelly Brown Douglas said that where you sit in the arena of life either gives you view to what’s happening on the center stage, or your view is obscured by a pillar. And if you think you already know what this text means and what it can mean and what it should mean, then you’re closing off layers of illumination. (37m 56s): I mean, it is part of what we see on television with all of the specials telling this person’s story, whether it’s a crime story or a human interest story, because that person and that producer want the viewing public to learn something, see something, hear something, and people come away from those programs saying, you know, I never knew it was like that. I had no idea this culture was like that. I didn’t know that this religion did that. That same discovery, when you share another person’s story, is true when the story is a biblical interpretation. (38m 39s): I was thinking about this question made me think about why I started going to synagogue in the first place. I had an encounter with seminarians of different religious traditions that was curated for seminarians. And, And I was very taken with the chanting of the Torah, the chanting of Psalms, which is what we heard then. And later I heard the chanting of the Torah, but the discussion in the synagogue that I would become a member of the discussion of the texts, the people were drawing from a whole different set of knowledge and authoritative books and authors and doing some of the best text grappling I had ever heard. (39m 26s): It was a well-educated congregation. It was seminary professors and seminarians, but still lay people well, good chunk of rabbis, but still people had who had not studied these texts academically. And the conversation was so much richer. But I wouldn’t have had that if I believe that Christians, whether my black church upbringing or the dominant white church I find myself in, now that we know what the Hebrew Bible says. Yeah. (40m 6s): I’m, I’m thinking about what you just shared now, and like the past few things, there’s been this like through line, right, of at, at some point you mentioned trying to sort of like weave in a corrective to people’s biblical illiteracy. And the enunciation was like one of many enunciations that happens in, in throughout Hebrew scriptures. And I’m thinking about, we hear both from pastors and also from lay folks, similar themes from pastors. We hear like, well, I can’t like teach the Bible while I’m preaching like that. Ha. Like, it’s just too much work to do all of this biblical education, like from the pulpit, I just have to preach a good message. And maybe they’ll come to Bible study later and then from lay folks will hear like, the, this all sounds like well and good, but like I just wanna like read the Bible and have it feel comforting to me. (40m 50s): I don’t wanna like do all of this homework to read the Bible. And I’m, I guess I’m like wondering, like, do you have any words of wisdom for like either like why that’s important to do this sort of work or how to get started if it feels like daunting or overwhelming? Like how, like how do you begin to peel back your own sort of like biblical illiteracy either in your congregation or within yourself? So I would say use the church fathers as a model. You know, they had a fourfold way of reading scripture. They read scripture differently depending on what they were doing with it. (41m 32s): So reading scripture devotional is fine. And I would encourage people to do that. And I would say what you, what you find or discover for yourself is meaningful read prayerfully guided by the Holy Spirit, but understand that that meaning is not then what the text means for other people. What it has meant, what it means when you understand the language and the culture so that there are multiple levels. But I would certainly not say, well, you know, you can’t read the Bible unless you know, know all this context that I’m talking about. (42m 17s): But you need to understand what kind of reading that is that you’re doing. And the same with most Bible studies in church. We’re doing a church-based Bible study in this, and this is gonna be different from the way that you would study the Bible in university or in seminary and make the point that all of those are valid and like a layer cake. They add a lot when you read them together, which is why the church fathers would sometimes do all the readings at the same time. But we’ve lost that bit of our tradition to the people, to the literalists who say, and even the non literalists, the pastors who want the, the religious churchy meaning to be the only meaning. (43m 15s): Yeah. And in terms of you don’t have to have time to teach when you preach. I strongly disagree. Yeah, I think so. Do we? So I I do, I do both. I do both. And I’m not the only one who does both. But pastors are negotiating popularity contests in the pulpit and a whole host of other things you can and the constraints on their time and that that’s real. So pastors don’t always have time to do the kind of study on a text. (43m 58s): Yeah. That’s necessary. Yeah. That’s that’s different from I can’t do it in this one sermon. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I, I I’m thinking of folks that like want to want to read the Bible expansively or are queer or are women or folks of color and they open up the Bible and because they haven’t studied in seminary or because they haven’t had a pastor do this sort of work for them, they open it up and they see, they read a passage and they think like, oh, here it says that like, because they just absorbed from the mainstream conservative Christian media, white media, like evangelical media. Like, oh, well here it says God as a man, or I’ve heard this passage say that sex is bad, or I can’t trust my desires. (44m 42s): And there’s not sort of like, maybe they don’t even want to believe that, but like, that’s just all they’ve ever heard. And I mean, obviously I’m gonna start telling people to, you know, go through The Women electionary as one starting point. But like, do you have a, like a, like what’s the, like the good word for people who when they open up the Bible, it like feels scary or they see condemnation or, or an angry God or an empire God in it. So those things are there, those things are real. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And it’s very much like going into a foreign country without a map. And that doesn’t always turn out well. You know, people begin these reading projects and they get to, sometimes it’s usually Leviticus Yeah. (45m 30s): That they, they fall apart. I had a Jewish men’s study group tell me that they made it all the way through. They go, they said, we go through the Torah, you know, during the year. So we decided, we decided, okay, we, we are doing all of this. I had a men’s bible study group in the synagogue say that because they go through the Torah during the three-year cycle, they wanted to read more. And so they started with Joshua because that was next after the Torah. They were so horrified by the violence and the calls for violence from God that they stopped. (46m 14s): And I had a talk with them about reading Joshua as a veteran, telling his stories. I was an army chaplain and we talked about the way that soldiers experience battle in the middle of it after it. And all the ways their stories differ from the official histories and how they are often the hero in their stories as a way of understanding the type of literature. Joshua, is to give them one way of looking at it. But it’s very difficult to just read without a guide. (46m 55s): Sometimes people have a very good experience of it, in part because of their prayer life or whatever is within them as an individual. But it is frightening and disappointing to other people and can be easy to be heard in prescriptive rather than descriptive terms. So what I would say is use one of the reading programs that does like a chapter of Hebrew Bible, a Psalm, and a chapter of New Testament a day. So you’re not just slogging through Leviticus For four weeks. (47m 41s): You’re encountering this difficult text along with a psalm that makes you, can make you feel better or more familiar territory. And something from the New Testament. I find that works fairly well. I love that suggestion. Thanks. I, I feel like we could keep talking forever, but I, I wanna be honoring of your time and so if, if folks wanna know more about you and and your work, where is the best place for them to connect with that? Will gaffney.com. Excellent. We’ll put that in the show notes. Thank you so, so much for the time that you’ve given us today. This is, this is gonna be really meaningful to a lot of folks, so we really appreciate it. (48m 23s): The Queer Theology podcast is just one of many things that we do at Queer Theology dot com, which provides resources, community, and inspiration for L-G-B-T-Q Christians and straight cisgender supporters. To dive into more of the action, visit us at Queer Theology dot com. You can also connect with us online on Facebook, Twitter, Tumblr, and Instagram. We’ll see you next week. The post Putting Women Back In The Story with Rev. Dr. Wil Gafney appeared first on Queer Theology.

For this episode of the podcast, Fr. Shannon has a sermon for Easter to share with y’all as our sort of virtual community and congregation of sorts! And there isn’t a coffee hour after, but if you would like to join in discussions, come on into our community at Sanctuary Collective.  In this sermon, Fr. Shannon explores the significance of the resurrection of Jesus, emphasizing its relevance to our daily lives and the transformative power it holds for individuals and communities. This call is to revolution and to live out the principles of justice and love in the present. We encourage you all to actively participate in creating a better world, rooted in the hope and empowerment that the resurrection brings.   Takeaways Easter is often viewed as a future promise rather than a present reality. The resurrection of Jesus has implications for how we live today. Women played a crucial role in the resurrection story, becoming the first evangelists. The resurrection signifies a shift in community dynamics and relationships. The movement of Jesus continues to inspire hope and action against oppression. Living out the resurrection means engaging in justice and community service. The promise of resurrection is a message of hope for the marginalized. Fear should not prevent us from living fully and courageously. We are invited to participate in the work of creating a better world. Embracing our fears can lead to transformative action.   Chapters (03:44) Easter’s Impact on Daily Life (06:31) The Role of Women in the Resurrection (09:30) The Shift in Community Dynamics (12:25) Living Out the Resurrection Today (15:29) Embracing Fear and Living Fully   Resources: Join our online community at  Sanctuary Collective Community  If you want to support the Patreon and help keep the podcast up and running, you can learn more and pledge your support at patreon.com/queertheology   This transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors or omissions. (9s): Welcome to the Queer Theology Podcast. I’m Brian G Murphy. And I’m father Shannon, T l Kearns. We’re the co-founders of Queer Theology dot com and your hosts From Genesis, revelation. The Bible declares good news to LGBTQ plus people and we want to show you how Tuning each week on Sunday for conversations about Christianity, queerness and transness, and how they can enrich one another. We’re glad you’re here. Alright. Happy Easter y’all. So a little piece of Queer Theology podcast history is when we first started this podcast a million years ago, episodes used to come out, I think on like Tuesday or th on, I think it was on Tuesday, and we had this idea that like folks who were preaching that coming Sunday as we were going through the lectionary could sort of use it and be inspired by it and incorporate that into their sermons if they wanted to. (1m 2s): And what we quickly found was that some pastors were listening to it, but there are a lot of non pastors, a lot of just like regular Christians were listening to it in lieu of what were in addition to going to their church services that it became sort of a Sunday sermon for them that they listened to on Tuesday. I know some folks would say, I actually wait until Sunday to listen to it because it’s kind of become my queer church. That whether they don’t have a, maybe you don’t have a church in your area that feels inclusive and affirming or you that so you don’t go to one at all or you do go to one, but there’s just sort of like they’re affirming, but maybe it’s not like as queer forward as you would like, and so you would like a little extra queerness in it. And so sort of like in that style as an homage to that, Shannon has a sermon for Easter that he’s going to preach for you and share for you today as our sort of like virtual community and congregation of sorts. (1m 57s): And this is a podcast, so there isn’t a coffee hour unfortunately after this, after this. But if you would like to join in discussions, not just today, but all throughout the day and the week and and the years coming into our community at Sanctuary Collective and you go to queer thou.com/community to learn about that. And with that, I’ll turn the mic over to Shannon for today’s sermon. Our gospel reading today is from Matthew 28 verses one through 10. After the Sabbath at dawn on the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to look at the tomb. Look, there was a great earthquake for an angel from the Lord came down from heaven coming to the stone. He rolled it away and sat on it. Now his face was like lightning and his clothes as white as snow. (2m 41s): The guards were so terrified of him that they shook with fear and became like dead men. But the angel said to the women, don’t be afraid. I know that you were looking for Jesus who was crucified. He isn’t here because he’s been raised from the dead justice. He said, come see the place where they laid him. Now hurry, go tell his disciples he’s been raised from the dead. He’s going on ahead of you to Galilee. You will see him there. I’ve given the message to you with great fear and excitement. They hurried away from the tomb and ran to tell his disciples, but Jesus met them and greeted them. They came and grabbed his feet and worshiped him. Then Jesus said to them, don’t be afraid. (3m 21s): Go and tell my brothers that I’m going to Galilee. They will see me there. I grew up in a church where Easter was a big deal. We dressed up and had sunrise services and pulled out all of the stops. And yet at the same time, my church kind of sort of believed that the really important stuff theologically had happened on Friday with Jesus’ death. Sure, we believed in the resurrection and thought it mattered, but it mostly seemed to be about something that impacted what happened to us after we died. If we believed the right way, then we would get to go to heaven, but this idea of Easter of Jesus rising from the dead didn’t entirely have an impact on how we lived right here and now. (4m 7s): It was a future thing, so we celebrated but mostly about what would happen later. Well, I know the church that I grew up in was different than a lot of the churches you might have grown up in. I think for a lot of us, we carry the same kind of belief with us. The resurrection matters, but we’re not entirely sure why or it matters, but for the future, not for today, and before we can even get into that, it feels important to name that. I know Easter might bring up some disparate feelings for folks. For some of you, you absolutely believe in the resurrection of Jesus. No questions asked for others. (4m 48s): You might have some doubts or questions, some might not believe in it at all. Know that whatever you’re coming into the space with your questions, your doubts, your confusions are welcome here. And not only that, but centuries of scholars and theologians and pastors have had these conversations and don’t all agree. And yet we still have these stories that we keep on talking about and debating and telling year after year. Some of you might be hoping this sermon goes super fast that you can get back to music or to lunch still, others might feel like there is nothing new in this story. (5m 30s): You’ve heard it every year. You know the ending, And I hear you like Christmas. We know these stories. We think we have them all figured out, but I believe if we continue to grapple with them, we might still find ways to be surprised. So no matter how you’re entering this space today full of belief or full of doubt or just here to please your family, I hope we can go on a journey together to see what this story might have to say to us. Still in the newer testament, there are four stories of Jesus’ life and ministry called the gospels. Each of these stories tells about the resurrection of Jesus in a completely different way. (6m 11s): Each of the writers were trying to make sense of this story for their community and what they were going through. This story that we read today comes from the gospel according to Matthew. And we’re going to look at just this story and not try to cram all of the different stories together. Now in this account. Before we get to this moment in the garden, we need to pay attention to a few other things. Jesus’s disciples, the people who had been following him for years, the ones who left homes and families and businesses in order to join Jesus’s ministry and mission in this account in Matthew, the writer tells us that when Jesus is arrested, they all run away. (6m 54s): Peter Jesus’s right hand person is present during the trial, but he denies Jesus and then he too disappears. These men are now in hiding gone. They are not present at the cross. They don’t help to bury Jesus. They run away. And we can understand why Jesus’s ministry happens in the context of Roman occupation, the Roman government heavily taxes the people, earns money off of their labor and oppresses them at every turn. And when someone tries to fight back, they are killed. There are stories of lines of crosses. Lining the roads into towns is a symbol of what happens when you try to fight back. (7m 36s): Jesus comes onto the scene in this atmosphere picking up the mantle of many other prophets and activists and healers who say, we don’t have to live like this. We can live in a world where there is enough for everyone. We can live in a world where there isn’t oppression. We can live in a world where there is food and clean water and healthcare. We can look out for one another and well like many other prophets and activists and healers. This message doesn’t go over super well with the folks who are sitting at the top of the keep. The ones who are making money off of other people’s work, the ones who already have everything they need and worry. This call to help others means they’ll have less. (8m 19s): We’ve seen this story before. We see it still. And so Jesus is arrested. He’s tried as a criminal, as one who’s stirring up descent and his followers, his friends know that they might be next. And so they run and they hide. They’re heartbroken that their friend and leader is dead. They are terrified that they will be killed next. They feel like this movement that they have given everything to is a failure. They thought this time it was going to be different, but now here it is ending up like all of the other movements. Rome is still in power. They are still being crushed and now their friend is dead. (9m 1s): And so we can understand their desire to hide, to protect themselves. And yet after the Sabbath is over, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary come to the tomb in this account. They don’t come to anoint Jesus’s body because that’s already been done by the woman with the perfume before Jesus’ death. In this version of the story, they come to sit vigil. They come to make sure that no one can steal the body of Jesus. They come to make sure Jesus is not disappeared like so many others, they come to make sure their friend’s body is left alone. They come to the tomb knowing there will be guards there knowing they will be at risk and they come there anyway. (9m 45s): And when they arrive, they’re met with an earthquake and an angel and the angel rolling the stone away. This is an echo of stories and prophecies and language from Daniel language that the community would’ve known and recognized. Not only is something incredible happening here, it’s happening as part of our tradition. The women are given the call to go and tell the brothers that Jesus has risen. This is really beautiful for a couple of reasons. First, Jesus calls the disciples, his brothers, even after they ran away, even after they left him, even after they didn’t show up and denied. Jesus is saying restoration is possible. Not only that, there is still work to be done. (10m 27s): The movement isn’t over. So Jesus restores these men to relationship. And second, it’s the women, the faithful ones, the ones who showed up who get to be the bearers of this good news. They’re given the role of evangelists and as they turn to go and fulfill their role, they see Jesus in the garden and become not only evangelists, but also the first witnesses to the resurrection. In a time when women’s word wasn’t allowed in the court of law, in a time when women were on the margins, they become the first ones to see Jesus. They become the ones given the message and told to share it with others. (11m 7s): Share. In this story we see that something new is happening, A new way of being community, a new way of showing up for one another, a new way of organizing ourselves that doesn’t fall into the old notions of power and hierarchy. It’s important to pay attention to how radical it is that we even have this story. The gospels written years after Jesus’ life and death could have covered this up. They could have realized that this story would’ve made their claim about Jesus less likely to be believed. And yet they left it in. The fact that we have this story tells us that something new is happening, something important, something beautiful. (11m 47s): As we’ll see over the next several weeks, if you keep reading the lectionary texts, that even though Jesus is alive, people are still afraid, they’re still doubting, they’re still in hiding. Jesus was resurrected, but the church didn’t spring up, ready to go. They’re still floundering and nervous. They still didn’t quite know what to do. They still couldn’t really absorb how the resurrection changed things. One thing was clear, though nothing would ever be the same because the empire, the kings, the rulers had killed a poor prophet and leader of a nonviolent movement. And in the past that would’ve been the end of things. The movement would’ve scattered or changed directions or found a new leader. (12m 27s): But this time the leader comes back to life, the powers that be tried to quell a movement. But God said, no, not this time. And in the moment it became about more than a movement. People started to realize that now everything was different. This inbreaking of God into the world in Jesus shifted it all before the powerful always won. The poor were always beaten down, the people who had the most weapons and soldiers and might always won. But now it’s the little guy, the marginalized, the poor, the women, the oppressed living in occupied land. Now there something to hope for because if the empire can’t kill you, there is nothing really to fear and a people who aren’t afraid of dying, a people who cannot be killed, these people are dangerous. (13m 21s): As that started to sink in, the whole movement of Jesus followers shifted. They started carrying themselves differently. They started speaking with more confidence. They started making noise and making changes. And one could say that they changed the world. And we are inheritors of that. We are part of that movement that when lived out is still shaking things up and is still striving to bring about the kingdom of God right here and right now. And that my friends is good news and that is also our invitation. Will we do what’s right for each other, for our communities, for the least of these, even when it’s hard, even when it’s scary, even when it’s dangerous? (14m 4s): And that is the message for us here and now. It’s not about some future reward, it’s not about heaven when we die. It’s right here in this moment, in your city, in your state, we are called to continue the work of Jesus, which he laid out for us in Matthew 25 to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to visit those in prison. A reminder that when we do things for the least of these, we do them for Jesus. And a promise that if you are one of the least of these, if you live on the margins, if you are oppressed or left out or beaten down, that God is on your side. The promise of resurrection is God’s yes to you and God’s no to the powers that oppress. (14m 48s): And so whatever you’re carrying today, grief or stress, doubt, fear, know that God is with you. There is a word of hope for you in this ancient story. And know that the invitation to create a better world, to participate in the kingdom of God is open to anyone who will do their part. You are invited to play a part in the new creation right where you are by planting a garden, by feeding your neighbors, by working for justice, by standing up for someone who’s being beaten down. Every little bit helps. Will you answer the invitation? Will you do your part where you are? Can you imagine what would happen if we really lived this way, if we really believed that we can make a difference if we really believed that none of us were too small or too unimportant or too afraid, and instead did whatever we could to bring about the kingdom of God here and now, that would indeed be good news. (15m 47s): This call of Easter is for all of us to believe that God invites us into the work to believe that we can carry on the mission of Jesus, to trust that we can do it scared or full of doubt, the mission is entrusted to us just as we are. So may you play your part. May you seek justice. May you be a witness to the good news you have seen and invite others to join you in the work. And may we bring about the kingdom of God right here, right now, right in our midst. Amen. And I offer as a benediction a prayer for a remembered death by the Reverend Mike Abusey. (16m 29s): I was hemming and hawing about my fears. Will my body be safe? Will my mind be safe? Will my heart and lungs be safe? Should I make this choice? Should I raise my voice? Should I put my privilege and my life on the line? And my sweet and my sweet sister smiled and said, I once met a woman who shared that when her fear for her own life started to pull her back from actually living, she stopped and said to herself, I am already dead. And my brain broke open. I am already dead. I am dust And I am stardust. A fragile collection of glitter crumbs, ages old already honed by countless supernovas who decided to come together and dance for a short sacred time as one magical me made shape. (17m 17s): My cells and my soul will move together until the moment they tear apart and drift off to become another star, another shape, another fear-filled already dead living thing. So live you are already dead. And every tiny shiny particle that makes up your parts knows how to dance a revolution because they’ve done it all, endured it all and danced it all before you are new and you are infinite and you are finite. And that is freedom. So move with the courage of the supernovas who continue to shape this world. You were born to die like the brave beings who have blazed before, who looked fear in the eye and said, I’m already dead, so I’m gonna go outlive in. (18m 4s): You are dust in your stardust. And to both will you return. So turn it out while you’re here. Feel the fear, but also feel the fire that is not only burning you alive, but burning you to life. Amen. Alright, thank you so much for that message, Shannon. And to everyone listening who is celebrating Easter today, I hope you have a very happy Easter. The Queer Theology podcast is just one of many things that we do at Queer Theology dot com, which provides resources, community, and inspiration for L-G-B-T-Q, Christians and straight cisgender supporters. To dive into more of the action, visit us at Queer Theology dot com. You can also connect with us online on Facebook, Twitter, Tumblr, and Instagram. (18m 45s): We’ll see you next week. The post The Revolution Starts Here appeared first on Queer Theology.

Fr. Shannon’s book, “No One Taught Me How to Be a Man,” is out April 15th and he can’t wait to share it with y’all! In this episode, we delve into the complexities of masculinity, particularly from a trans perspective, and discuss the societal expectations and pressures that men face. Shannon emphasizes the need for a new understanding of masculinity that is inclusive and healthy, addressing the crisis many men experience today. This discussion is especially important as we head into a new era of men defined by evangelical Christian beliefs.    Takeaways This book is about unlearning harmful masculinity. Trans perspectives can offer new insights on masculinity. Many men feel a sense of not being enough. There is a crisis in masculinity affecting men’s health. Healthy masculinity can improve relationships. Men often struggle with societal expectations. The book aims to provide practical steps for change. Courage is needed to redefine masculinity. Men’s closest relationships reflect their overall behavior. The conversation about masculinity is ongoing and necessary.   Chapters (02:08) Exploring Masculinity: A Trans Perspective (06:44) The Crisis in Masculinity (12:47) The Need for New Masculine Models (17:02) Identifying Male Suffering (19:25) Romance and Relationships in Masculinity   Resources: Join our online community at  Sanctuary Collective Community  Grab your copy of No One Taught Me How To Be A Man at https://www.queertheology.com/books/   If you want to support the Patreon and help keep the podcast up and running, you can learn more and pledge your support at patreon.com/queertheology This transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors or omissions. (9s): Welcome to the Queer Theology Podcast. I’m Brian G Murphy. And I’m father Shannon, T l Kearns. We’re the co-founders of Queer Theology dot com and your hosts From Genesis, revelation, the Bible declare good news to LGBTQ plus people, and we want to show you how tuning Each week on Sunday for conversations about Christianity, queerness and transness, and how they can enrich one another. We’re glad you’re here. Hello. Hello. Hello. I am so excited for today’s episode of the Queer Theology Podcast because if you listen to this on the day comes out, it means that Shannon’s newest book, No One Taught Me How To Be A Man is coming out in just two days. We’re gonna share a bit of a sneak peek. I think this is an exclusive sneak peek the first time it’s been Anything from the book has been shared at length publicly, so you’re in for a treat and we’re gonna just like jam on masculinity and the book and more. (1m 2s): So I’m really excited about that. Shannon, before we dive into your book, your, your, your selection in just like a sentence or two. What is this book and who is it for and what do you hope to accomplish with it? Yeah, this is a book about masculinity mostly for cisgender men, but for trans and queer men of all stripes to think about what are the things that we might need to unlearn in order to be healthier men for ourselves and for all of the people around us. So it looks at like different models of masculinity and what they’ve taught us and what in those lessons might be good and what in those lessons might be bad. And so I’m really hopeful that it opens up a conversation for men who have been thinking that their masculinity or the way that they embody their masculinity might need, need to change, but they’re not quite sure how to navigate that. (1m 53s): I love it. And would you share a, like a selection from your book with us? Yeah, so this is, this is the introduction of the book, so it’s a, it’s a way to kind of let you know a little bit more about what I was thinking and who this book is for. When I posted online that I was writing a book about masculinity, someone commented, I’m sorry, you have nothing to add to this topic when you hear that I’m a transgender man, you might agree with that random internet commenter. As a trans man, my credentials might seem to some to be suspect, yet it’s this very identity that has helped me to see and understand masculinity in a new way. As a transgender man, No One Taught Me How To Be A man. I wasn’t raised as a man, nor was I indoctrinated into masculine spaces when I figured out my own maleness. (2m 38s): After a lifetime of wordless, not enoughness, I had to make a masculine space for myself. My sense from talking with many other men and extensively studying the research on masculinity is that even those who were raised as men feel they too had to figure it out on their own. The struggle to figure out what it means to be a man and how to feel like you’re enough gets more complex. As the world changes rapidly, we continue to look for models to help us sort out how to be in the world. As I tried to figure out what being a man meant to me, I went first to the various streams of conversations about men and masculinity, but in each of them I found something to be lacking. Some fundamental piece was missing. There were residences, but none of them fully explained my experience of the world. (3m 20s): Some were centered around body parts And I knew from experience that it wasn’t those parts that made me a man. Some were centered on healing relationships with other men, but I had close male friends and that wasn’t doing it either. Some were focused solely on how to get and maintain relationships with women, and that too felt like not the whole picture, something was missing. I did what many men tried to do. I experimented. I tried on lots of different ways to be a man from the hyper-masculine man to the fierce protector to the gentleman, until finding some kind of mix that felt authentic and didn’t do harm to the people around me. On that journey, I look to other men to media portrayals of masculinity, to feminist conversations about toxic masculinity. (4m 0s): And in each place I try to figure out where I fit and what was missing. I realized that my unique upbringing, my own journey and what I’ve experienced in moving through masculine spaces might help unlock something for men who have that same sense that something is missing but can’t quite figure out what. You might be wondering why we need another book about masculinity. Haven’t we spent enough time talking about men and men’s issues? On the surface, it certainly seems men have been centered in far too many conversations for far too long. And the spate of books about the various crises and masculinity seem designed to make that center hold. And yet, in the midst of all of these conversations, we seem to have found very few solutions talking about masculinity isn’t new. (4m 43s): While there haven’t been the same well-defined waves as there have been in the feminist movement, there have definitely been streams of conversation that overlap, argue with one another and try to solve the problem of masculinity. In this work, the question often becomes, is it masculinity that’s the problem, or is it men? Is it possible to separate the two? Is there a way to encourage healthy masculinity? And what happens if we disagree on what healthy masculinity means? People have posited all sorts of solutions to the issue. Some thinkers say, if we could just, if we could simply recover some kind of warrior ethos, we’ll be alright. Others say, we just need kinder and gentler men. Some have theorized that it’s about connecting with an absent father or healing your father wound. (5m 25s): Others want us to engage in initiation rights, often stolen from indigenous communities. There are some who believe the way forward is to eradicate gender entirely. Some say everything masculine is toxic, while others say toxic masculinity doesn’t exist, and people are just shaming men for being men. What’s often lost in the midst of these schools of thought is the average man just trying to get through the day. Men who feel like they’re floundering and don’t know where to turn for help. From my conversations with other men, many of us feel like something is missing, something isn’t right. We feel like there should be be more, But we have no idea how to get it. We continually feel like we’re not measuring up to what our partners want and are expecting to the other men in our lives. (6m 6s): To a society that seems to keep moving the goalposts, it feels like hyperbole. But when we look at the statistics, there is indeed a crisis in masculinity. This isn’t some far right talking point about how we need to man up, nor is it simply a liberal left viewpoint about eradicating all of gender. No, this is a real crisis that is threatening the health, relationships, and wellbeing of men. And because of the way many men have been raised and indoctrinated, when men are hurting, they tend to hurt the people around them. All you have to do to see that, that this threat is real is look at the data from men delaying going to the doctor, to men having few to no friends outside of their romantic partners to the high rates of suicide. (6m 46s): Not only that, but men are also struggling with how to parent, how to date and find partners and how to connect. These statistics affect not only men, but also everyone in those men’s lives. There are direct links between the ways men are suffering and the harm they do to other people. If we truly want a healthy society, we have to address this crisis. What we’ve been doing hasn’t been working. We need a new kind of thinking and intervention that will allow men to show up for themselves and others. This book is an examination of masculinity that isn’t centered on biology or body parts. It’s an exploration of what it might take to be a good man in this world that seems filled with toxic men. It’s about masculinity that centers women and other people of marginalized genders, but that also makes space for men to be themselves. (7m 30s): It’s a plea for a healthy masculinity, a wholehearted masculinity and a gentle masculinity. And it’s written by a man who had to figure out on his own what masculinity was. This book is for men. If you identify as a man, if you move through the world as a man, then you’re welcome here. We’re not going to define what makes a man in this book. I don’t care what body parts you do or don’t have. I don’t care who you’re attracted to or not attracted to. I’m not worried about your testosterone level or your chromosomes or your DNA if you’re a man. This book is for you. If you’re wondering if you’re man enough, you’re, if you’re wondering if I’m going to try to tell you to stop being a man, I’m not. If you’re wondering, if I’m going to prescribe a one size fits all version of masculinity, that once again leaves you out, then fear not. (8m 13s): And keep on reading this book, book won’t argue that there’s only one way to be a man and that trans men, queer men, and anyone who doesn’t fit the stereotype aren’t men. Nor will it say that masculinity is just fine. And the real problem is all the women getting so upset about things. I don’t think the way forward is to reclaim the past and bring back old notions of chivalry and manliness. So if you’re open to the conversation, then let’s have it. If you’re hungry to think about being a man in new ways, if you’re feeling lonely in your masculinity, if you’re feeling like there’s no room for you in the world anymore, this book is for you. If you’re feeling like all of the old ways are dying out and you just don’t understand why, then read on. If you’re wondering why it seems like so many men are dying by their own hands or struggling to form relationships or feeling isolated, then we’re in this together. (9m 0s): If you’re a trans man who’s trying to figure out how to inhabit your new id, if you’re a queer man who senses, you’ve got some unhealthy practices or coping skills to unlearn. If you’re still figuring out what masculinity means to you, you’ll find a place here. What we’re not going to do in this book is decide who gets to be a man and who doesn’t. That’s a losing game for all of us. It sets up walls. You might be surprised to find yourself on the outside of them for too long. This idea of one right way to be a man has left too many of us feeling like we’re not enough, we’re not tough enough or cool enough or strong enough. But on the other hand, there are men who feel like they’re not sensitive enough or quiet enough or gentle enough to fit in anymore. This book is for all of us as we try to figure out what it means to be men in our current world. (9m 43s): I’m not going to ask you to stop being a man. I’m not going to tell you that we need to abolish gender or get rid of the binary, but I am going to ask what we mean by masculinity. I’m going to invite a conversation about how we’re showing up as men, and if that’s actually serving us. I want us to open up the doors to the secret places where many of us are wrestling, but are afraid to say it out loud. Yes, we’ll talk about how to be better husbands and fathers, but in some ways that’s a side note. It’ll happen automatically if we learn to be healthier Men, if we learn to be healthier men, our relationships, all of them, friendships too will deepen. Our physical health will get better. Our mental and spiritual health will improve. We’ll see a shift in our relationship to ourselves and our communities. (10m 25s): Does that seem miraculous? I promise It’s possible if we show up, if we do the work, if we allow ourselves to ask the questions and really listen to the answers and change the ones that we don’t like. This book is inclusive of transgender men, obviously, as it’s written by one. And it’s inclusive of men who are gay or queer and of men who are straight and who have never questioned either their gender or their sexuality a day in their lives. Our experiences of masculinity will differ from each other based on our class, our race and ethnicity, and the ways we were raised. Instead of trying to flatten the experience of masculinity, we should open it up. We all have something to learn from one another. It’s no secret the world is changing and many of us are feeling left behind the jobs that were once highly coveted for, their security, longevity and high pay don’t exist anymore, and they’re not coming back. (11m 13s): The ways many of us were taught to be, to speak, to act, to treat others aren’t seen in the same light anymore. The ways we formed relationships in the past aren’t available to us. In a world of fast and easy connection, we are lonelier than ever. After years of struggling exploring and experimenting, I’ve come to an experience of masculinity that I dream of for all men. I want us to have ease in our bodies, to feel like we are enough to have solid partnerships, to feel capable and competent in our workplaces and our in our households. To have deep friendships, to be physically, mentally, and spiritually healthy and to be content. While this might sound like a far-fetched dream, I do believe it’s possible. (11m 53s): Make no mistake. It’ll take courage. Courage to go against the grain, courage to face our deepest selves. Courage to shift generational narratives. When we do these things, people will push back. It will be uncomfortable for us and others. We’ll have to learn new ways of being and speaking and hold tight to them even as it disrupts the those around us. Change is hard. It’s easier to just keep doing what we’ve been doing, even if it doesn’t work anymore. We need courage now more than ever. Courage to face what’s no longer working for us. Courage to shake off ways of being that are holding us back. Courage to lean into discomfort and take charge of our growth so we can be the people we wanna be. Here’s what I promise, it’ll be worth it. (12m 35s): Amen. That’s that’s, I mean, I read it and I’m still like big tingling from that. So I have, so a bunch of questions. One is you do a lot of different types of work and you have written and preached and taught on a bunch of different topics. Like how did you end up wanting to write a secular book about masculinity out of all the other books you could, you have written and might write and will write? I feel like this was a topic that just wouldn’t leave me alone. It, it’s one that I started thinking about like a while ago, but didn’t feel ready to write. (13m 21s): It’s, it’s funny how like sometimes that just happens, right? We, we have this idea, but then we have to kind of grow into the idea. And part of it was that, you know, when I started my transition, I started reading a ton of books about masculinity. Like I even did a, a self self-guided study on masculinity as like part of my seminary education, education. And from the very get go I was reading these books and being like, I don’t, something is missing here. Like even as I was still very new in my own masculine journey, I just, I was like, I, these, I feel like these men are just, they don’t, they can’t even see what they can’t see, right? (14m 8s): And that I am seeing something else like as a trans person reading these books. And so that kind of planted the idea in my head that it was like, I think that something about transness is opening up a new window. And then I read some, some more recent books that were like trying to help men be better partners, right? And these were books by women, cis women who were very much like in touch with wanting men to be healthy. And yet they too were making all of these assumptions that were really based on societal expectations and not reality. Right? Like Fair Play, which is a book about like yeah. (14m 50s): Household, which I love. I love it too. It was like a super, super help helpful book. And also there’s all sorts of stuff in that book that I was like, this is not, this is not gender. Like this isn’t gender that you are assuming. Yeah. Like you’re making all of these assumptions. And and then there was another book also by a cis woman also, not To, not to knock on fair play, but like my partner And I read it and we had to, we’re like, well, we have to do a lot of translating ’cause this is like very clearly Yes. Meant for a like man, cis straight man and a cis straight woman and their kids. Right. Also, like at the end of the book, she kind of concludes it with like, I don’t know, like if you can get your husband to like carry like a third of the weight, like that’s a win. (15m 35s): You should really sell it. Like that’s like, that’s as good as it’s ever gonna get. Yeah. What, there’s some wild stuff in that book. There was also like a whole chapter about like identifying what type of husband your husband is. And one of them I was like, well, that’s my wife And I am, I’m the, I’m the wife in this situation. Yeah. Right. And so it’s just like these things. And then there was this other book also written by a cis woman that was like, you know, about how to, how men could be healthier. And she had something that I found really striking of that there was a man in her life that was being vulnerable and it upset her. (16m 16s): And I was like, okay, the, so we have these like double standards, right? And we have these expectations that cis folks are bringing to the conversation that are just like not serving anyone. And it feels like there is a space now for a, a book that tries to get rid of some of those assumptions, or at least to to name the assumptions. ’cause I think that was the thing that was bothering me is that people were making assumptions, but they weren’t naming them as assumptions. They were just saying like, this is how it’s, And I was like, oh, trans folks bring something to the conversation because like, we don’t, we don’t get to just say, this is how it is. (16m 57s): Right. We had to figure out who we are from, from the jump. Yeah. In that passage you read, you said, I believe this is what you said that you, you mentioned like the secret places where many of us are suffering, but are afraid to say out loud. And can you like sort of name some of the ways in which you’ve been suffering or you’ve seen not to like make you like bleed for us? Or the ways that you’ve seen like men suffering that this book seeks to like shine a healing light on? Yeah, I mean, I, I think, I think this sense of not enoughness is one that has been true for me. And I, I think is also true for other men as well. Like this sense of like, that you were somehow going to be found out, right? (17m 42s): Like for me it’s often like I am very deeply concerned in spaces with a lot of cis men of like being found out as trans and not putting me in danger. But I, but I think that there’s something else, right? Of like, people looking at me and, and, and judging me and saying like, oh, he’s not really a man or his masculinity is, is not authentic. And for me, again, it’s like, because of my transness, but I’ve seen in other men, like queer men who are worried that the ways that they’re carrying themselves are gonna reveal that they’re quote unquote not enough or too Effeminate. Yeah. All of the like no femme, like I Exactly. I want a real man. Yeah. Yeah. And, and, And I think that like even for cis straight men, there’s this sense of like, if I, if I am too emotional, if I am gentle, if I like, enjoy being with my kids, someone is gonna question my masculinity, my, so I think that that is a big one for a lot of folks. (18m 41s): And I think that there’s also, the other kind of big one that I’m seeing is like the world changing so fast and men, especially men of a certain generation, but not only like being unable to keep up, right? And that is both like technology and jobs, but it’s also like, what am I expected to do now? Am I expected to pay for the date or not? Am I expected to, I don’t be gentle or, or a protector? Am I like, what am I expected to do and how do I manage all of those expectations? (19m 21s): And I think that that’s a place that’s causing a lot of anxiety for men. Yeah. It’s, it sounds like a lot of that friction is happening in the context of like romantic relationships of what, and is that, is that like the true of this book? Or like how, like how is it about romance versus other spheres of life? Yeah, I I, it, there is a lot of, of like romance and partnership in the book, but I think that like, it, it’s because our, our re our closest relationships become a microcosm of how we act everywhere. Yeah. Right? So it’s like if you are someone who is not carrying your weight in your household, there’s a good chance you’re also not carrying your weight in your workplace, right? (20m 9s): So I think that whether you are partnered or not, this book like looks at the places where you might be feeling entitled to certain things because of your gender and how that might be playing out like in the, in all of the places you inhabit. So, you know, thinking about, there’s, I I tell a story in the book of my wife worked at a seminary and the seminary had like a shared kitchenette and she was like, it was only and always the men who would leave their dishes in the sink, in the kitchenette with the assumption, right? That like someone else would clean up after that in A progressive, a progressive seminary also, And this is a progressive seminary, right? (20m 52s): Like lots of queer and trans men working there. And she was like, it was striking to me that it was only the men that did that. And, but like that, and that was, but again, like, and so I can imagine that these men were also doing that at home, right? That there was this assumption that someone else would clean up for them. And I think that that assumption too of like, who in your workplace is in charge of remembering birthdays and getting the card and like bringing snacks for the whatever or organizing the annual potluck or whatever if, if we even do that at work anymore, but Right. Like, yeah. All of these ways that expectations are gendered and that I, I think we just need to be paying attention to the ways that those things are playing out. (21m 37s): Yeah. And you, you mentioned in, in the passage, like, we need a new kind of inspection, I think is what you said, or analysis. And you also like if we, if like we will do the work. And so like, I’m wondering, I mean I know that that’s like the book, but like, I guess like what, what is like new about this analysis and also, and like relatedly, I know that you’re not prescribing a like one size fits all approach, but like you said a few times, like something was, has been missing. And so like what is that missing piece and like what is the type of work that we, is it, is it like literal manual labor? (22m 18s): Is it like in our minds work? Like is it interper? Like what is, what is the work that we’re doing? Yeah, I mean, I, I think the work is like all of the above, right? There is, there is some unlearning we need to do about, or many of us need to do about like what it means to be a man and, and how we play that out. And so then as we do that unlearning work, some of it does become like manual labor to show up differently in our households and in our workplaces to like, you know, make sure that there is a fair distribution of labor or to learn for, for some of us who are not partnered it, it might be like to learn how to take care of the spaces that we live in, right? (23m 2s): Like, can you cook? You should be able to, right? Like whether you are living alone or with someone like you should be able to make some meals and do your own laundry and like pay attention when things are messy and, and not just assume again that that is like gendered labor. And so I think some of what is new is asking us to really examine, you know, what are the things that we are assuming about what it means to be a man and can we pay attention to those assumptions and, and hold them up. Some of, some of this is also like examining the different models of, of masculinity, which I think is not entirely new. (23m 50s): And also I think the way that I brought together like a bunch of different things is new right? There, there are folks that now that are starting to talk about like how growing up on sitcoms, right? Like taught men learned incompetence, right? And so like that is definitely part of this. But I think that there’s also, like, we got messages from our church and from evangelicalism about masculinity that like, whether you are in the church or even evangelical, that is now taking center stage in our country, right? Assumptions about what it means to be a man and how you interact with other people. (24m 32s): So I think putting all of that together and then, and then the other piece is that I’ve, I’ve tried to be really practical in this book of saying like, here are some next steps and here are some things to try and here are some things to like pay attention to and answer for yourself in a way that I hope it won’t just be like, great, now I’ve read this book And I don’t know what to do with it, but that it’ll actually like, give you some next steps and, and lead you into action. Ah, I love it. So it’s out tomorrow or it’s out in two days? If you’re listening to this, what is the exact date that it comes out? It comes Out Tuesday, April 15th. Fantastic. And so right now it’s already on sale. Obviously you can get it wherever books are sold. (25m 13s): We have some links to like the major retailers on our website at Queer Theology dot com slash books. But like you can go to your local bookstore and if they don’t have it in stock, every, all indie bookstores would be delighted to order it for you. And you can have it picked up there. Like it might be a few bucks more expensive than Amazon. Sometimes it’s the same price if you’re picking it up in, in store. So buy wherever books are sold, request from, from your library and stay tuned. I think we’ll be doing a book club about it at some point. So hop on our mailing list if you’re not already on there to get all of the details about that. The Queer Theology podcast is just one of many things that we do at Queer Theology dot com, which provides resources, community, and inspiration for L-G-B-T-Q Christians and straight cisgender supporters. (25m 54s): To dive into more of the action, visit us at Queer Theology dot com. You can also connect with us online on Facebook, Twitter, Tumblr, and Instagram. We’ll see you next week. The post Exclusive First Look at “No One Taught Me How To Be A Man” appeared first on Queer Theology.