Post Shame & Sacred Intimacy with Adam MacLean

(9s):
Welcome to the Queer Theology Podcast. I’m Brian G Murphy. And I’m father Shannon, T l Kearns. We’re the co-founders of Queer Theology dot com and your hosts from Genesis, revelation. The Bible declares good news to LGBTQ plus people, and we want to show you how Tuning in each week on Sunday for conversations about Christianity, queerness and transness, and how they can enrich one another. We’re glad you’re here. You all are in for a treat. Today we have Adam McLean joining us for a conversation about lots of things. The big one, the center of it is shame and it’s inverse, or, well, I guess we’ll find out if it’s in the inverse pride. I know that as L-G-B-T-Q people, almost all of us probably struggle with shame in some way, shape or form.

(56s):
And I’m really excited to have this conversation with you, Adam, to bring sort of a new light to the various ways shame shows up in our lives and in particular in this new millennium. So you’re the founder of the hashtag PostShame, the Post Shame org website. You’ve also got a podcast, Find Your Light with Adam MacLean, where you have these difficult conversations around shame and leadership and self-acceptance. And I know from your work that a big part of that is developing tools to help people examine the things in their past that they might worry about, and then proactively share those stories themselves and, and doing so transform the stories and their narratives around those stories. And so like, wow, such important, I would even call it holy work that you’re doing.

(1m 42s):
I love, I love the idea of calling it holy work. My long journey around being okay with using words like secret and holy and divine. I’ve, I’ve arrived in my forties being like, those are okay. Words to say. So I’m really having that, that’s that, that you’re, that you’re doing the type of work you’re doing and, and you’re stitching together all these sometimes disparate subjects. But it turns out we’re all, we’re all going in the same direction. We’re all trying to focus on the same thing. And dissolving shame turns out to be, I think, the great work of our time. Yeah, it’s been so misapplied, it’s been so misutilized, and I think in a lot of sacred spaces, especially like churches, sometimes it can be so weaponized and how cool that you’re leading a movement of people who are kind of squaring their faith and their sexuality and making it make sense.

(2m 40s):
So thank you for the work that you’re doing. Well, You’re welcome. Thanks for being here. So you kind of keyed us into perhaps like a little bit of your backstory when you said you’re recently arriving to this place where it feels comfy to describe your work as as holy or sacred. And so can you share a little bit about your background that maybe made those words for a time being like not feel so safe or comfortable or accurate? Right. Well, I’ll start with The Birth of Post shame.org. I wanted to run for office. And in 2016, after the first time that Hillary won more votes than Trump, just a reminder, she won more votes, but she wasn’t allowed to become president. And I was like, the world’s on fire.

(3m 20s):
It’s time. I’m just gonna have to run for office. So I started to do opposition research on myself and assemble a team and like put things together. And I realized that I had all these naked images of me on the internet, some consensual, some non-consensual, and this was something I needed to deal with. And during the process of trying to figure out how to reconcile all that and make it so I could run for office, I realized that a bunch of millennials and Gen Z folks were kind of opting out of politics writ large because the internet is such a scary place and your whole past gets piled onto the internet. And then it’s just this scary place to kind of try to be a human. And yeah, I know. Yeah, the internet’s a scary place.

(4m 1s):
So I started in what I really thought was a very secular endeavor, you know, kind of coping with online shaming how who gets shamed for what and why online. And the, you know, the conversation essentially became what is shameful. And I was like, oh gosh, yeah. I don’t think being gay is shameful at all, but that’s because I’ve had this like, you know, evolving life where as a teenager, okay, quick, quick, quick story time. Go back to like, me as a teenager, I grew up Episcopalian in Buffalo, New York, and I was going to confirmation class because my Jewish friends all had bar and Bat Mitzvahs.

(4m 48s):
And I was like, that sounds like an amazing party. I don’t understand why I don’t get one of those. And then my friends at, at the Epi Episcopal Church were like, well, you can get confirmed. And I was like, do we get to have a Bar mitzvah? And they were like, not exactly, but you know, go get confirmed and you know, we can have a party. And so I start teaching the confirmation classes and the person teaching them was like, all right, go home and please get your baptismal certificate and bring it in. ’cause we need that, you know, paperwork to, to do the confirmation. So I go home And I say to my mom and dad, I need my baptismal certificate. And they were like, Ugh, about that.

(5m 28s):
And I was like, what do you mean? And they’re like, so, you know, they’re like, of course. And I remember this conversation vividly because it was the first time I was confronted with like God as paperwork. Like, I was like, what do you mean? And they said so about that, they said, of course you’re one of God’s children. Of course God loves you. And I was like, what is this preamble? And they’re like, but you weren’t like officially baptized. You know, we baptized you in the bathtub and like, if you need to get anointed with some oil, like we can totally ask, you know, father John at the Invisible Church to do that for you. But like, you weren’t like officially baptized. There wasn’t like a baptism.

(6m 10s):
And I was like, really? Okay. So I go back to the confirmation class and I’m like, I don’t have a baptismal certificate. And they were like, whoa, okay, so we’re gonna have to do all that. You’re gonna have to get baptized. And I was like, what has changed? Like what? Like, like what has changed? And they’re like, well, you just, you have to be baptized. I’m like, no, really what is different there? There’s no way that anything is actually materially different. And as my mom and dad who were like, I guess trying to be as caring as they could, and what they knew was about to be kind of a dramatic situation, they were like, God loves you. And I was like, yeah. So I’m set. Yeah, I’m good. Yeah.

(6m 50s):
I, I I’m, I’m already taking care of this, this ceremony isn’t going to change anything. Yeah. And now I’ve, and then I was like, I don’t think this confirmation’s gonna change much of anything either. And then I was like, huh. And that began my like searching. Yeah. So sorry, this was a lot of story time to say like, I feel very lucky that I had this early experience. We’re kind of poking holes in the power structure was like part of my upbringing. I felt really lucky to get to kind of ask the question, like, who gets to decide my spiritual journey? And it turns out it’s me. So back to shaming writ large, like what is shameful?

(7m 34s):
You know, morality’s important. People always ask, what could you not be Post Shame about? And I’m like, you could try to be Post Shame about pedophilia and murder. You could try. You’re not going to get anyone on your side. No one’s going to like join you. But when you have to come out, when you say, I’ve lived this life and my sexuality does not square with my religion. And then you finally say, but I can’t do this any other way, I’m gay. I have to come out. And then you realize, oh God, there was nothing to be ashamed of anyway. I have to teach the religious leaders of being gay is okay. And so Post Shame, any coming out story, which we’ll talk about more, but any coming out story is a way to tell the power structures.

(8m 17s):
No, no, no. I was always holy, I was always cared for, I was always held, And I’m gonna tell you how this is gonna go. Yeah. And I, And I may, I think there’s a difference, right between feeling like being ashamed of something and feeling regret or remorse or guilt, right? Like there are things that I’ve done that have been hurtful that I wish I didn’t do that I could bet I would take back. And the, the challenge in this not be like consumed by shame and but to be like, I can regret that I can make amends, I can apologize, I can improve, I do better in the future. But like, I don’t have to be captive to shame just because I like did something bad bad. So I think there’s also like, what can you not be Post Shame about?

(8m 58s):
It’s like, well, you can, there’s lots of things you can be Post Shame about just as long as, and that’s different from like sometimes the reconciliation or repair that might need to happen. Exactly. Well, you know, we, we all stand in the, in the light. I was about to say, we stand in the shadow, But we actually stand in the light of Brene Brown. Yeah, yeah. And Brene Brown has these, you know, amazing distinctions between guilt and shame. That shame is something we actually feel about ourselves. And guilt is something we feel about an action. So when you are unkind to someone, absolutely, you should feel guilty about it. When you break the rules that you knew you were breaking, you should feel guilty about it because like, like that’s something you’re gonna have to figure out.

(9m 39s):
Yeah. But when should shame be applied? You’re right. And the internet is the sharpest, double-edged sword humanity is ever invented because the swiftness with which we are able to publicly shame someone is something humans have never seen before and is like completely incomprehensible to our lizard brains. And just the internet writ large can feel very scary because of what so many people are describing as mob mentality and cancel culture. I really don’t think anyone actually gets canceled. I think the genesis of cancel culture comes from trying to hold people to account, which is something that the internet has actually helped and hastened in many ways, but then in other ways it’s just provided a platform for shamelessness and people to say, you know, middle fingers up, I don’t care what anyone thinks, I’m just gonna keep speaking my mind.

(10m 29s):
Which in some cases is really helpful, but it depends on who you’re making your enemy in that scenario. Yeah. More, more on That’s a larger distinction. Yeah, actually. And because also the way that power comes into function or like the, the, the most powerful people doing like the most harm, like sort of like rise above that, whereas like marginalized people, small platforms, individuals can like really have their lives up. I just like, I think about people who like JK Rowling like turns the ire of her, like masses on. And so like JK Rowling’s, like not getting canceled, but like, I wish she would, but like, but she like picks on like a random trans woman and like their lives get destroyed. Right? Like, and so that’s like for like for nothing, for like, for being a trans woman on the internet.

(11m 12s):
So it’s just, yeah. It’s a mess. Yeah. So post PostShame, I would say is really committed to examining who gets shamed for what and why. Yeah. And who, who is, you know, having a hard time on the internet. So I love that you brought up just very simply just saying marginalized people reminds me that like, and sorry, and back to your earlier question of like my journey of being okay with words, like holy and sacred and divine and all this stuff. Yeah. I remember going into 12 step rooms, I would say in like my late twenties searching, wondering, you know, and then them saying, you know, you’ve gotta surrender and you’re gonna have to, you know, reckon your relationship with God and everything. And I was like, why is God involved?

(11m 53s):
I just wanna to figure out if I should stop drinking. I just want to figure out how to deal with my money problems. Like, I was in those 12 step rooms feeling like I was trying to tackle something concrete. And they were like, well, God is here. And I was like, what? What are they doing? Anyway, the AA and the 12 step programs were invented around a kind of, and Holly Whitaker talks in this, about this in her book, quit Like a Woman, you know, these programs were invented to kind of bring a certain type of man to his knees. It really was for a kind of apex predator in a hierarchical society to kind finally submit and realize that he wasn’t in charge and he needed to, you know, for lack of a better imagery, you know, get down on his knees and be humble in front of God.

(12m 38s):
And, you know, surrender to God. And Holly Whitaker says like, what are you talking about? Queer folks, women, people of color. They’ve been on their knees in a lot of different contexts in this lifetime. They have been, felt like they’ve been pushed down so many times. She really wanted, Holly really wanted to, like, from what I understand, kind of like invert this kind of, I must be humble before God energy, you know? And instead say, no, I wanna be self-expressed. I wanna be fully myself. I mean, the reason I stopped drinking was because Holly Whitaker told me by drinking, I was letting the man kind of keep me down. I was letting this like capitalist spending weird.

(13m 19s):
Like, you know, I think alcohol’s gonna end up going the way of cigarettes. Like people will just be like, it’s bad for you. Yeah. Like, you shouldn’t, you shouldn’t do it. It’s really bad. And so it’s like, it’s like my, I’m not, I’m not textbook sober, but like, I don’t drink as a kind of radical act of self-love, not as a humble, humble, quite the opposite. I mean, I don’t drink kind of self righteously to be like, yeah, you know, who else doesn’t drink Brene Brown? You know, I want to be like Brene Brown. So like, that’s how I got myself together. So, yeah. Anyway, so now I kind of go into 12 step rooms with a different reverence being like, if you need to be brought to your knees, then go down to your knees.

(14m 3s):
And if you need to be lifted up, there’s this room of really nice people who are also kind of willing to lift you up. Yeah. So that’s how I kind of reckon all that. Yeah. One of my friends in, in sobriety says like, one of the sort of like catchphrases for God, for folks that are like, maybe don’t believe it, like in a traditional understanding of God is like a group of drunks since we’re like being, being like held by a group of drunks, being like accountable to a group of drunks, like at the end of the day. And I just sort of like, oh, like, that’s like a God I can believe in. Like, like, and just to see the ways which like my friends in 12 step programs, like show up for one another and care for one another and give one another. And like even the ones who are like, like selflessness sometimes, but not in a, like I am nothing sort of way, but sort of in a, like, we are all in this together sort of way is really beautiful.

(14m 51s):
Totally. And that’s also when, and I mean, just the title of this podcast, Queer Theology, you know, has been, it’s been, you know, popping around in my head for, for weeks and months now, because I’m literally just like, where am I in like stitching together my queerness and my, you know, willingness to interrogate theology. I’ve, I’m struggling with the word sin these days because I’m just like, Oh, I’ll sell you on sin. But I just, I’m like, I’m gonna use your God as a group of drunks analogy, which I’m realizing the joke there is the acronym group of drunks.

(15m 32s):
Yeah. Okay. Because I’m like, the drunks is, I’m like, drunks is so pejorative. Why, why, why is that what we’re talking about? But anyway, yeah, equipping a quippy of acronym always helps. And I’m just kind of like, well, it’s, it’s their sin that brought them together and their sin is what’s, what’s helping them see through this life and the fact that community is going to be the only way through it. I, I just can’t get on board with sin capital s and one God removes it. I just, I’m not there. It’s not my practice. It’s not my jam. Is there something you want to sell me on? Is there, is there, I mean, I love sin in the context of like BDSM and like, like investigating your shadow.

(16m 17s):
So like I’m all in on that, but you cannot, when I go to church with my boyfriend, he’s a, an onic episcopalian. And when I sit in that church, there are certain, some of the prayers that I can’t say because I’m Oh yeah, no, I’m not gonna tell you on that version of sin. Okay. I, because I, like, I went through it on my journey. I went through a period of time where I was like, there’s no sin, sins not real. And it was actually sort of like original sin that I came back around to first. And I was, but like not in the weird Christian way, right? That like, I was born like in a hospital in America that like using medical technology that uses like rare minerals that were harvested like on other continents that create war and strife and poverty.

(17m 3s):
Right? And so like, whoa, Trump, whoa. That is, that is such a butterfly effect that like the original sin is that rare earth mining was necessary for your birth. And that’s on you, bro. That’s so it Interesting. No, it’s, it’s Not, it’s not That’s a thing though. It’s like, it’s not on me. It is, it is a fact. Right? I like, I like grew up in America that is like the, the fortunes that we experience as American citizens, like is held up by the American military, by white supremacy. Like we’re both like white men. Like I actually like, And I, that doesn’t mean I did something wrong or that I’m shameful, but like, I actually cannot get away from like systemic injustices that happen in the world that I play a part of.

(17m 45s):
Like, there just like is no, you know, there’s no consumption under capitalism. Like that doesn’t mean that I’ve done something wrong necessarily. And it does definitely doesn’t mean that like a god up in the sky is going to like, erase it all and make it all better. But like there are in fact like ways in which like, we can’t help but hurt people or benefit from like harmful things despite our like best efforts and intentions. And like it does, it feels like until you And I, yeah, I don’t, I don’t don’t actually call it sin, right? Like I would just call it like systemic injustice. But like, I do think that there’s like concept of like, there actually are that there actually are like forces in the world that like act upon us and if we just pretend that they’re not there, we actually cannot dismantle them.

(18m 32s):
And so like being able to like name those in some way, And I like personally wouldn’t use the word sin because it’s like all wrapped up in like weird baggage. But like, I do think that like there’s an angle in which like yeah. Like sometimes like, do cause harm or are part of harmful systems. That’s really interesting. So, so help me out. This is like, for, for the listeners out there, this is when the guest is cheating, right? This is when the guest is like, goes in and is like, okay, well this is free therapy, this is opportunity. So, so I, okay, so I’m standing in the pew and all, all these prayers that have been cultivated over centuries, right?

(19m 13s):
Yeah, yeah. Like, it’s not like these are unthoughtful. So people who really thought they were onto something writing these books are really trying to like guide society, you know, like let’s, let’s assume best intentions for most of this stuff. Yeah, yeah. Especially the Episcopalians because they are like so inoffensive. Yeah. I, I’m, I’m so, I’m so down with the early acceptance of gay marriage in the Episcopal church. Anyway, so I’m standing in the pew And I’m saying these prayers and it has to do with sin. So, so help me. So like I, I’m now like blanking on like, yeah, I literally was an acolyte. So like, how can I not remember these prayers? But like, you know, so then what am I saying when I’m like, God would take away the sins of the world.

(19m 54s):
I, I, yeah. I don’t know how to square energetically, how can I, how can I endure these prayers? Because really I stand there And I like purse my lips and sometimes it’s also like a recorded telecast in this very fancy St. Thomas Episcopal church. Yeah. Yeah. Which Is fabulous in, in Manhattan. I mean, I know that they are not using certain video clips because I’m like rolling my eyes in a way that are like, like it’s, it must be distracting sometimes. So, so gimme a recommendation. Yeah. How do I ride that out? It depends on how you define the word God, right? Like, if God is a like man in the sky, that is like waving his hand over the world and sort of like casting some magic spell to like excise the sin.

(20m 39s):
Like Yeah. Eye roll. You’re right. You’re turning me off. Yeah. Nonstop. Yeah. Yeah. Eye roll, eye roll, eye roll, Right? Like, and so like, and, and, but, and here’s the thing, like, I’m not really here to defend the Episcopal church. Like the, the problem with in my, in my, in my outsider is you a lot of like the mainline Christian denominations, like it’s really about tradition, right? And so like, they, they care a lot maybe about like the world, but like, I don’t know if it actually is like thoughtful as you’re giving them credit to. A lot of it is like, we’ve had these buildings for a long time and we sing these pretty hymns and we have this beautiful sounding organ, which your boyfriend plays beautifully. Like, and also like, we just like the way that it sounds and we like the community and like these words just sort of like give us like comfort because like our parents and our grandparents and their grandparents have been saying it.

(21m 27s):
And like, there’s actually I think like not a lot of self-reflection going on both, especially like amongst your everyday parishioner. It’s like, I think that could be the sense of your sort of like, I do we actually even believe these words, right? But there’s, I think there’s a word, a way in which you could reframe all of that, but like, also like if, if Episcopalianism like doesn’t do it for you, like go find your piece elsewhere. Oh, work. Okay. Well quick shout out to Colin, my fabulous boyfriend who, who came up with this idea that I, I should be on the podcast and, and, and really believed in the cross section of Queer Theology and Post Shame as like, you know, topics that, that really support and magnify one another.

(22m 8s):
And Colin is a fabulous, fabulous organist and very talented in that regard. And I have to say, the sermons lately, it’s like always some visiting fancy person from England have been great. So this is something I think is also different in my forties. And on quick, another story time. When I was a teenager, when I was in acolyte, my family was friends with the priest church family as well. I don’t feel like naming them, but like, anyway, we were friends with them. They had a deaf son who I was friends with. I felt really lucky to have like a deaf bestie when I was a kid.

(22m 50s):
There was so much, it was so relentlessly confronting. One of the things he used to do was if he was getting yelled at by his parents, he would cover his eyes. And I thought that was so funny that, that that, that they couldn’t sign to him. Anyway, so that’s just, that’s, this is just imagery is just so reminding me of my childhood. Anyway, they went away to something in Maine when I was like 13 and they invited me to go with them, and the priest was preaching like a guest preacher at a church. And I have no idea what the sermon was about, but after the service, I mean, I’m 13 in this story and Father John comes over to me and says, so what did, what did you think of the sermon?

(23m 36s):
And I was like, what do you mean? And he is like, well, what did you think about it? And I was like, I I mean, good job. Like what? And he was like, did I, did I do okay? And it was again, One of these wild thing for a pastor to say to a 13-year-old or anyone really, he Was nervous. Yeah, I know, I know he was nervous, but like, again, I felt really lucky that I had these like early experiences of like seeing the quote unquote man behind the curtain. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Where I was like, oh, you’re just a man. Yeah, yeah. And you’re, and think about it, he’s writing this sermon in the nineties. I mean, he’s not getting help from little Clippy or Chachi pt, you know? Yeah. He has to like write this sermon on his own.

(24m 16s):
Yeah. Like find these ideas from within himself, try to, you know, explain this message. I feel like nowadays I, God, I could really work with cha bt on like an amazing Post Shame sermon. It would be like so spectacular. And I would love to be like stitched together my disdain of the word sin and the, the parsing out the difference between guilt and shame and like, how do we do this with the context of Episcopalianism, you know, St. Thomas Episcopal invite me to do a guest, a guest sermon one day anyway. So it just that that’s what’s on my mind. Yeah. I mean, so like, I, well I’ll plug a research really quickly and then, we’ll, I wanna get back to Post Shame because like, so I think that there is something really powerful about like rituals.

(24m 58s):
And so I think that for like many people, they like haven’t taken the time, and this is like not a judgment anyway, they haven’t taken the time to like create their own or to find their own or to find their own unique meaning in the ones they’ve inherited. And so they just sort of like go through the motions and it’s like there is something comfortable about like, singing the same Christmas songs every year, or like these prayers that we always say together. And like, even if you don’t necessarily believe in the content of it, there’s like something about like the process of doing it together with these people who you do care about that feels comforting in some way. Connective. And so like, what we really encourage people to do is like, like create your own rituals or like re like really understand this sort of like radical roots of Christian or Jewish rituals or like, like baptism and communion actually have these like really, really powerful radical roots that like kind of get lost in like two millennia later.

(25m 48s):
And so like find your, either find your own way in your own way into existing ones or create your own so that you have like way, a way to sort of like tap into and remind yourself of like your deepest values and to connect with like the people who you are in community with and your, your values or your higher power. And we have a whole workshop on that. I mean, you make, you make a really good point. And I, I want to say, I mean, I’m not like anti getting baptized, but the way that I would want to be baptized is like, I would invite every single person I know in New York, we would fill the whole church. It would be like wedding level invite list. Okay. Yeah. And like, I would stand at the front of this church and strip completely naked.

(26m 31s):
Yeah. And like walk, walk into a pool and be like, if, if I’m going to declare the way that I like, want to be involved in this communion of like, just the, I don’t know, like again, someone would have to help me stitch together the mission statement of this baptism. But like I describe this to my friends about what I would, what would be the bar for me to like agree to be baptized into the church. And they’re like, Adam, you’re describing a drag show. You’re describing your own drag performance. And like that is not exactly like, I don’t know if the Episcopal church is like eager to get the Adam McLean version of baptism.

(27m 11s):
Yeah. Like there’s other places like you And I should do that in a park. Yeah. Like, like we should have the, the Queer Theology, tm, Adam McLean being baptized for pride, like fully, fully nude, immersed with like the most beautiful prayers and like sacred. Do you see how animated Yeah. Yeah. I’m here for it. It’s like totally queer and radical who wants to be baptized, but just like the word baptism, it’s Yeah, yeah, yeah. I guess if I really care I have to do a little bit more research. But you’re saying you have resources on this, are there like back episodes that are about baptism specific? Oh Yeah. We, we, we have a workshop called ri no not about baptism specifically, But we have, we have, we talk about baptism in it, but it’s, it’s a workshop called Rituals for Resistance and Resilience.

(27m 56s):
It’s that Queer Theology com slash rituals. Thank you for plugging that. Yeah, that’s awesome. Totally. When I, so I got both religiously and legally married like a little over a year ago on my 15th. Congratulations. You had your one year anniversary. Yeah, It was like a few months ago at this point. Congratulations. Congratulations. Which is wild. Congratulations. We got married on our 15th anniversary and so people keep asking me like about my one year and I’m like, it doesn’t, it feels like my 16th year, not my, my first year for sure. But, but so to get back to that, people were like in the lead up to it. Were like, are you so excited? It’s gonna, like everything’s gonna change. Or like in the, in the immediate aftermath of like, oh, like how’s married life? And I was like, I don’t know, like the same, we’ve been together for 15 years.

(28m 39s):
And so there was, I remember there was like this part of me that was like, nothing is like actually like ontologically different about me or our relationship. Kinda like your experience of like what with the baptism, specificate, like what has changed? And then I was like in couples therapy and also writing my book about non-monogamy and like writing about rituals. And I was like, we like, we like we did do it and like we could have not done it. And Like there’s like one way to look at it where like nothing is different. And then there’s like another way to look at it where like, I guess like actually something like is different And I can’t, And I hate this ’cause like before I was married I was like, oh, these married people are just like, they don’t understand.

(29m 25s):
I’ve been together for 14 years. It’s the same. And, And I don’t necessarily think that like you have to get married, but like there is like some way in which that like putting 200 of our friends and families and loved ones together in a room and like for us Humble wrack. Like It Was, it was taco, it was a taco buffet. So like, No, no, I don’t need the details. I’m just so happy for you. The 200 folks were like, hell yes. Yeah. So that’s great. And we like signed this katuba and like some rituals, right? And it was like, oh, like maybe like something magical did sort of happen and like, I don’t really, it’s like on the way, like in the logical part of my brain, like mostly atheist, part of my brain is like nothing happened.

(30m 10s):
Like it just was this, but, and then there’s like, so there is like some sort of woo that was like, I don’t know, I think we like actually did sort of like conjure some shift. And so I think whether it’s marriage or baptism or conversion or divorce, like there are these like moment moments that you can like mark with meaning, and you don’t, you, you could just sort of like coast through them, but like if you choose to, I think you can like call into something like bigger and deeper if you would, if you would like, I think that is probably the most adult most thoughtful way to even question this context entirely. Yeah. It’s like you don’t have to use the word god in your 12 step meeting.

(30m 53s):
You don’t have to say the prayers at the church, you can just like hang out, you know, during that part of the service. Yeah. But to, you’re, you’re literally offering people In this conversation the idea that you can check in with your own rituals and your own ceremonies and then Exactly. Things are exactly the same. But something also did shift because of declarations, because of language. What is more beautiful than signing the katuba. Yeah. Like it is so exciting to, to, I mean all that script, I, it just like, I mean I want one Colin, don’t listen, don’t listen to this part Also, we’re not Jewish, but Well Depends on how find it.

(31m 35s):
He’s I can have a good, That’s a whole other episode. That’s a whole other episode. But I, I think that is where I’m at with, I don’t wanna say with with the sacred, with the divine. I am so game to interrogate how our language and our thoughts shape the world we live in. And that all we can do is make commitments in our relationships. Like that’s like all we can do. Like yes, we can build things in the physical world, but they don’t actually do anything until the relationships were in interact with them.

(32m 18s):
Yeah. I don’t know, do I, do I believe that? Totally. Do I believe that statement? I’m kind of thinking about some crystals that I have on my altar at home right now And I’m like, no, those inanimate objects are lovely, but it’s because of who gave them to me or where I was when I got them, or like what they symbolize and are reminding me of. I dunno. Yeah, that’s a baptism. There’s magic, but like if crystals work better for you, like stick with the crystals. You, you Adam. And also like you listening, like I, we feel like we constantly say like, part of our work is to help people reclaim the religious traditions they come from. And part of them, part of our work is to help people be like, oh, actually this like no longer fits me. I don’t need this to them. Like, leave healthfully.

(32m 59s):
Okay, put a phone mute. But I, I appreciate that you keep turning the tables and becoming the interviewer. It’s clear that you have a podcast. This always happens when you get two podcasters together, they start interviewing one another. But, so I wanna, I wanna circle back to like Post Shame and like the actual work of like Moving Beyond Shame for folks. Like how do you like guide people through that? Great. So Post Shame dot org is an online tool to help people find something in their past that they worry would leak on the internet. They leak it on their own with context and they share a story of strength and leadership that shows they’re ready to help people deal with something similar. It’s a six step process. The company as it were, is really a consultancy where you get to work with me on what it is that you are afraid will leak on the internet.

(33m 44s):
These could be people preparing to run for office. These can be people in a large business organization that are trying to go from that SVP level to that CEO level. A very crude description of it that some people like in the business world is like training for how to make the internet like your bitch. Like how to make the internet work for you. Because when a board is considering who is going to be able to be in that kind of like hot seat that like relentless focus seat, they want someone who’s not only like internet savvy, but like already kind of mindd their past and looked in their closet, so to speak, to find the things that, you know might derail them being CEO.

(34m 25s):
My favorite part of PostShame is that it’s actually this amazing conversation starter and context to remember that online shaming is always gendered and racialized. Online shaming is not evenly distributed amongst, you know, what you look like or your social strata. And it’s like everyone’s favorite discussion entryway into declaring how dissatisfied they are with how the internet works. Like no one is enjoying cancel culture. It just isn’t, it just isn’t going well. And, and everyone it turns out has a story where they have more sympathy for someone who they don’t feel got a fair shake on the internet.

(35m 7s):
On Find Your Light. With Adam MacLean my podcast, we kind of look at a person like me and my guest in act two of the podcast, look at a person who’s had a public shaming or a downfall and kind of imagine what their life would be like if they had had access to Post Shame and utilize this tool instead of going through their scandal just like clumsily. And it turns out so many people are like, oh, there’s so much nuance to these stories. We wish this person would’ve just like, come clean sooner. Because it turns out it’s not that bad. And so many people have gone through this. This i I just, I it’s my favorite way of, of going through the world. It’s, it’s how I slow down the internet in my mind.

(35m 48s):
And it turns out when I offer offer it to people, either as a service or a context or just like a cocktail party conversation, they are calmer. Yeah. It is, it is a mechanism to say internet shaming is so fast. I’ve also, one of the ways I quote unquote help people is sometimes I see someone going through an internet shit storm. Either I know them or like I don’t agree with what, you know, the headline is of what they’ve gone through. But I still reach out to them and say, I’m sorry you’re going through an internet shit storm. They’re really scary, aren’t they? And people are like, thank you. You’re the only person Yeah. Who has checked in with how I’m doing. One person I’m thinking of in particular, I don’t wanna go into the details of it, but he was in the wrong Yeah.

(36m 29s):
And I was like, I’m really sorry you’re going through an online shit storm. And he was like, you’re the only one. Yeah. Thank you so much. And I was like, please don’t, please don’t do anything to hurt yourself. Like please know that there is a way through this and you know, keep staying in the conversation. Don’t get so like, I, you know, I’m gonna bring him up because everyone else always brings him up in this context. But Trump, like, he is not Post Shame. He is shamelessness personified. He is all elbows out. He he has no empathy, he has no contrition, he has no humanity. So go live your life as, as Donald Trump. It’s, let me know how it goes.

(37m 10s):
There’s no way it’s fun. Yeah. There’s no way it’s connected. Yeah. There’s no way it’s enriching. Yeah. Like look at that guy. He’s so, he obviously smells and is just like an arid rotting from the inside human being. Sure he is a massing power, but at what cost? Yeah. Like, and which is why I really worry about kiddos seeing people like that in unquote power because they’re like, well is that how you get through this life? Yeah. Is elbows out saying, no apologies to anyone and I’m over here Post Shame being like, no, no, no. Apologies to many. Yeah. But you don’t have to actually apologize to everyone. ’cause sometimes the thing that you think is shameful actually isn’t shameful.

(37m 50s):
Especially if when it comes to things like sexuality and recovery and evidence of, you know, sex tapes and nudes and everything. Yeah. Yeah. So did that, did that answer your question? Yeah. That that’s what I do with cliche a lot. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And it’s just like, wow. It’s like I, you don’t have to apologize for the sex tape, but like someone else should probably be apologizing for like the fucked up relationship that they, that they had. Right. We, and we like ways, we were talking about sort of things are like racialized and gendered and like queer people are stigmatizing in different ways than straight people. And it’s just sort of like the ways in which we’re told like, these things are bad. I remember like when I was living in West Hollywood, someone was like, some, some guy, some queer man was like running for I think city council and he was like, by the way, I have a dude’s nude.

(38m 31s):
Like here’s the account I, I Know. Yeah. I know this story. Like, yeah, he’s an, an early, I forgot his name. He’s an early, he’s an early example of Post Shame. There was also someone who was running for governor of Arizona and he, these, there were these early examples of like, well I guess it’s gonna leak, so why don’t I just come out about it anyway. Yeah. Which I think is an amazing first draft. Neither of those candidates was like, especially like politically agile. Yeah. And like, did they even get any like, support on their side? Like it’s interesting for the headline. Yeah. Which I also think is something people are very concerned about pursuing Post Shame is they’re like, well, I don’t wanna just come out about everything.

(39m 14s):
Like, the best part of being in interaction with other humans is that we remember that like context is important. Like things should be context dependent. It’s actually very inappropriate if I just walk into every business interaction I have and I’m like, Hey, I have naked photos of me on the internet. Like, it’s like, whoa, whoa, whoa. Hold on. Yeah. Like, that’s not what we need to talk about right now. Yeah. Do I feel it’s important for me to publicly discuss that I have naked photos on the internet because I want to de-stigmatize them and like come out relentlessly that revenge porn is abhorrent. And at the same time we can also continue a conversation that having naked photos of yourself on your phone or sending them to other romantic partners or people you’ve never met that you’re just simply chatting with is also allowed Yeah.

(40m 2s):
In a reasonable way for consenting adults to communicate. Yeah. So like my nudes are on the internet to fight revenge porn, but like, I can’t actually go into a conversation with someone who doesn’t want to talk about nudes at all and just be like, nudes, nudes, nudes. You, you have to, you have to stand up for stuff at the same time. There Was a while ago where someone that I knew back when I used to go to church, like at some point we became social media friends and like he would send me like flirty messages that I would like not particularly reciprocate. And at some point I started just getting like, like naked pictures of like explicit like dick pics and, and butt pics. And I was like, I don’t, like, this is not our vibe.

(40m 45s):
And I remember him being like, oh, sorry. I just like, I’d be like, I’ve had so much shame that I’m like really trying to like be like more sex positive And I like, don’t always know where the line is. And I was like, okay, well like sending like non-consensual naked photos is like not sex positive. Like, so I could send them to consenting people who wanna have it, but like I actually like don’t want to receive these anymore. So like please don’t send them to me. And then like he would stop for a while and like he’d be like, send of ’em again. I’d be like, we have talked about this. Like, And I was like, if you do this again, like I’m going to block you because like, this is not like this second or third time that we had this conversation. And like, and then I kept tapping And I was like, man, like this is not, this is also like not it, right? Like I’m glad that you’re feeling your oats, but like if you’ve got a clear, literally metaphorically, I guess if you’ve got like a clear signal that it’s not okay or not wanted like that, you gotta knock that off and it’d be one thing.

(41m 34s):
Or if it was like we were in a group snapshot and like that was sort of like the vibe and like the first time And I don’t know, like I’m kind of a like, you get one free pass sending me nudes and I’ll like tell you if I want more of not or not, but like, not everyone is like that. It just feels like if you’re gonna be talking about these topics or sending, like you were saying like the context is so, is important. Like talking about it is different than like showing them, talking about them in sort of this like the, the way that you talk about like your work and like the importance of it is like different than talking about them in sort of like a titillating way. That’s something that we inside of our online community are that we always like striking that balance of like, how do we open up spaces to talk about sex and queer sex and like not being ashamed about sex and like anonymous sex or sex parties without also like, and like being able to like name that and having a space to discuss that amongst other spiritual folks without it being sort of like inappropriate for people who like Yeah.

(42m 26s):
And so like that’s always like a balance and it like, like you were saying, it just looks like context. Context and can sound are both so important in this in these conversations. Yes. You’re reminding me of Audra Lorde has these beautiful, sometimes I go on like bell hooks and Audra Lorde and like, like these amazing Yeah. You know, YouTube like black holes where I just like, it’s like suddenly two in the morning and all I’m doing is watching Yeah. Watching all of this like amazing feminist content on YouTube. Anyway, she does this amazing clarification of the difference between the pornographic and the erotic. And I think you’re pointing out something important that like exactly like you have a book coming out that has to do with your non-monogamy and polyamory or sorry.

(43m 13s):
Yeah. I actually might be mis describing it. Is it polyamorous as well or is it Just Yeah, polyamory, monogamy. Yeah. All all things. Yeah. Great. So some people think those words are inherently pornographic, right? Yeah. They think immediately it’s like coming out as bisexual, right? Yeah. They think, oh my God, that means you are this greedy threesome having maniac. And it’s like, no, I was just describing my identity as Yeah. You know, as such, I’m, I’m an aspiring, budding bisexual. I’m actually get so much pushback and welcome. I’m a bisexual Too. That’s like a very, I’m a very faggy, very gay bisexual. Well, exactly. If anyone’s watching this on video, these two guys are like, so I’d like to go on a date with a woman.

(43m 54s):
And they’re like, did you see the snaps? You just gave? Like, you’re gay. Anyway, let’s, let’s leave that to the side. Let’s leave that to the side. But this, this, you know, we’re, we’re still talking about something fairly radical, right? Especially with all of this sexuality and like self-expression stuff. I am just very aware that many people perceive what I’m talking about as pornographic. And I very often try to ground it by saying I’m accessing my erotic all the time. These difficult conversations are part of my erotic, these talking about the intersections of shame and theology. I mean like, I don’t even know if 10 years ago me would even be able to have this conversation because I’d bring so much like agro upset energy to being like, so many people are mad church abuse scandals.

(44m 44s):
You know, just like, and now I’m just kind of like, what are the things that work for people? Ceremony is beautiful. Anyway. Yeah. So I just, I think there’s this key distinction between the erotic and the pornographic. And I think staying in the erotic is, is an appropriate loving way to have a conversation. And I just wanna point out that sometimes the nudes conversation on the plat, the different platforms that we’re all on, I think that it’s your experience of this person, like kind of sending you, you know, non-consensual nudes essentially is it’s in the platform.

(45m 24s):
Like the platform can be so deadened and the type of connection can be so deadened that this person is so desperate to connect that they’re like, here’s this whole, here’s this whole pick. I’m expressing myself, I’m sex positive. And you’re like, oh my God, this platform is so, so poorly designed that like, I’m open and Instagram and it’s just these like disappearing whole pic. And I was just like, okay, great. Like that’s not the energy I was in right now. Yeah. Like, I’m looking for grief resources. Yeah. I’m trying to, I’m trying to, to to do research on, you know, health and wellness. Yeah. It’s just like, it’s so messy. I had a, a client come to me recently who really wanted to come out about his inappropriate messaging behavior and we went through the whole like process of Post Shame And I kind of predicted where we were going to get to.

(46m 18s):
And when we got to the end of it, he realized he had like one apology to make and that what was really happening was that it was addictive behavior. And what he was doing was he wasn’t making his artwork because he was so caught up in what, like might even be described as like sex addict behavior. Kind of like a pathological behavior of like trying to get a rise out of people, get people’s attention and feel validated through this mechanism. Because of doing the PostShame process, he realized he had one apology to make and he needed to delete like Grindr from his phone. And I was like, that is a beautiful end of Post Shame.

(46m 58s):
You don’t have to like go on a press tour talking about all the messed up messages you sent. Like it, it can actually be tampered down. Yeah. And again, this is one of my favorite parts of Post Shame is like walking people through, you know, what do you feel ashamed about? I bet other people are also having a similar experience and how can you share your story to help other people feel less alone? And that’s what we’re doing right now on this podcast. Yeah. Yeah. So with the pulse shame consultancy, it sounds like your clients tend to be like higher powered, like, or not high powered, but yeah. High, high powered and high or high level or aspiring to those levels like business executives, politicians, like things like that, people in the public spotlight, leaders of some sort or aspiring leaders.

(47m 46s):
Do you also, but also do any work with like, just sort of like everyday individuals? And if not, like, do you have any like, tips for like, just sort of like, I Mean, all my clients are badass, so Yeah. So some some are, some are more high profile than others. Sure. But I also have a sacred intimacy practice. Yeah. And I would describe sacred intimacy as a healing modality where you work with a PR practitioner who’s willing to help you kind of investigate your shadows and come up with somatic like embodied exercises to kind of metabolize those shadows, complete processes in your mind and body like Carl Jung style that like need to be completed.

(48m 26s):
And sometimes that can in and can include touch and intimate touch. So my Post Shame world has also kind of morphed into the sacred intimacy world where you’re asking like, is it, is it like everyday folks? I have a lot of straight male clients who are kind of meeting their body for the first time and are so scared and don’t know where to go for this type of like, coaching. And I have to say the touch elements with my straight clients are pretty, pretty low. Like, like low stress. Like none of my straight clients are coming in and like asking for like very explicit work.

(49m 6s):
They’re kind of like, I’ve been married for 10 years. I, sorry, how explicit am I allowed to? You could be As as close as you might be. Yeah. It’s just, I was just like, they’re like, you know, I’ve been married for 10 years, you know, I, I only, I can only come by jerking off. Like, I don’t like having sex with my wife. I gained all this weight. I wanna get off these antidepressants, or I wanna get off this Adderall and this is making me feel this way. And it’s just like, people are just like so squirreled up with like all these things about their body and sex and shame. And so we do, you know, embodiment exercises to kind of like help them meet their body again for the first time. For many of them, they haven’t had a male counterpart that they can talk to about these parts of their body.

(49m 50s):
And looping this back to like religious shame, so many of these men are afraid of being labeled as gay because they’re coming to this place for this type of help. And there’s nothing gay about a kind of like, again, ceremonial, ritualistic, like being with another man and talking through how their male anatomy works, how they experience their male body and healing that. And I know it sounds odd to say, but like it’s not gay. Yeah, no, It, it’s not gay. It’s, it’s kind of bro vibes. And I like use this imagery a lot.

(50m 30s):
I don’t know if it’s landing with people, but like, I really think about like men going like building a fire in the woods together and like talking about what matters to them and like discovering, like that’s their form of church, right. Like discovering their inner worlds sharing, being in relationship with one another. They’re not gonna make out, they’re not even gonna spoon in their tent. Yeah, yeah. But they need someone to talk to about this life, the, the mystery of their body, their sexuality in themselves. Yeah. And also like, as, as Gayness for lack of a better word, has gotten like more visibility. I feel like there’s, it’s not accepted fully.

(51m 13s):
So there’s like this like retraction away from types of touch kiss, physical affection that like straight men used to be more comfortable doing one another that now they’re so God afraid of doing, the fear of being perceived as gay. Like, I had this, I have this book called, oh I can See It, loving a Photographic History of Men In Love 1850s through 1950s. And it’s like these really cute and like I, I read it and like they all as like, it’s a photo book. So I look through it And I like, they all look like super queer to me and some way, but like I am aware also that like some percentage of these men are probably like not actually like gay in the way that we would describe it. It’s just that like you could be cutesy and hold hands or be silly together like in 1890s in a way that you like is like less accepted now because it gets like coded as gay.

(52m 2s):
Yeah. I do a lot of like breath work retreats, yoga retreats, plant medicine retreats, even in mixed gay and straight spaces, but they are usually male or male identified only. And when men are together, they’re goofy. They love like climbing on one another and like being like, it’s roughhousing. Yeah. And it’s like, it’s, it’s, I Don’t know, it’s we’re animals, man. Like, Like I know we are animals, But we’re like Animals. Like Yeah, I know. Also, like I’m six four and 200 pounds. Like I’m, I’m a great guy to wrestle with. Yeah. Like, you can climb me and like, yeah.

(52m 44s):
Again. Yeah. So that’s what I’m out here in the world doing and that’s how Post Shame has kind of like, has this like offshoot and sacred intimacy. And I am manifesting like a headline that is like the Straight Whisperer. Like I really feel like there is just, there’s all these headlines about male loneliness and like the crisis of men. And like people like Scott Galloway are doing their very best to like put this like magnifying glass on like, we really have to take care of these men because they are lonely and they are dopamine addicted and they are playing video games and they also have access to guns. Yeah. Like it can be very, very dark and scary. So I want to be out here being like, well, there’s a nice guy Adam, who like is willing to talk to you about whatever is the scariest, darkest part of yourself.

(53m 30s):
Yeah. And like, if you need a hug, I’m also came for a hug. Yeah. And it’s not gay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I gotta connect you with my creative partner here, Shannon, because his book is all about like masculinity and all that shit from his like perspective as a trans man. Right. Shannon is a trans man, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So I love, I love talking to trans men about their experience of the first time they take testosterone. And I hope I’m not stealing a joke from Shannon, but apparently it’s like you are horny and hungry. It is literally like, I want a sandwich And I want to fuck. And I just think that is so funny. I haven’t gone on like HGH or like testosterone journey for myself yet, but I’m sure when I get into my fifties and if that becomes part of my life, I’m just gonna be like, they were right.

(54m 11s):
I’m hungry and horny. Yeah. I remember like in my, in my twenties, like I, I had like my dad’s bald, my mom’s, my mom’s ad was bald. Like I have lots of balding in my family. I just like didn’t wanna go bald And I was considering going on Propecia to stop my hair loss. And I was like having all this angst about like spending money on this pill to my, just my body. And I was talking with one of my friends who happens to be a trans guy and he Was like, just wait till prep comes out and then you have to walk through that fire as well. I know. He was like, I don’t know man. Like I, if there’s like some medication that you can take that like makes you feel more at home in your body, like obviously I’m in support of that. And I was like, And I was like, well of course, like of course like you are allowed to do it, but it just like, somehow it felt like superf allowed superfluous like when I was doing it.

(54m 54s):
And he was like, you can let, like, you can let that go man. And so I like, I’m really appreciative for the ways in which like trans guys have also taught me how to be a man. God is trans. Yeah. God is trans because trans folk, this is, this is where I’m at And I know there’s no trans folks in the room right now. So if someone is like, you can’t talk about the trans folks if they’re not even there. I’m going to share this closely held personal view, which is trans folks by being themselves. It is like coming out, I’m about to say coming out on steroids. I mean, it is such a magnified experience of coming out by saying, I am all of these things you cannot tell me otherwise. Yeah. What is more beautiful than that? Also, the, the revelations that we’re having as a culture that so many things we do are gender affirming.

(55m 40s):
I I I would love to get rid of the gender binary, although some of us are at one end and others of us are at the other end. Yeah. I I don’t think we have to focus so much on the one side or the other, but if you need to go on that testosterone and grow that beard and get the surgeries, knock yourself out. Yeah, yeah. Like be gender affirmed. Yeah. Yeah. So if you And I, you And I will have a support group if we go on testosterone in a few years and we will, we will go back to each other and be like, we’re hungry and horny. Yeah. Yeah. That’s, that’s gonna happen. So if folks are interested in connecting with you about your Post Shame consultancy work and or your like sacred intimacy work, what is the best way for folks to get ahold of you for that?

(56m 21s):
Post Shame dot org is the prettiest website on the internet. I’m on Instagram at, at, at a mac attack, And I recently have joined Blue Sky and am dipping my toe into what it’s like to commune with all of the folks who are sharing their nudes and kind of like living a kind of like much more out and proud life on Blue Sky. And that’s Alt Mac attack. Get the joke. It’s like an alt Twitter, but it’s Alt Mac attack and I’m having a little bit of fun over there. But I gotta say it’s scary because Yeah. Living out and proud is, and, and, and really walking the walk while you’re talking, the talk can be confronting.

(57m 4s):
So if you, if you see my nudes on Blue Sky, please be nice. Awesome. Well, thank you again so much for being here, Adam, it was great to connect with you and thank you for this like, really delightful and insightful conversation. Thank You. And thank you for all the work you’re doing. And may we both keep shouting our missions loud and proud, because it turns out they’re all the same. All we’re doing is dissolve and shame all day long. Amen to that. The Queer Theology podcast is just one of many things that we do at Queer Theology dot com, which provides resources, community, and inspiration, Fort Q Christians and straight cisgender supporters. To dive into more of the action, visit us at Queer Theology dot com. You can also connect with us online on Facebook, Twitter, Tumblr, and Instagram.

(57m 46s):
We’ll see you next week.