Queer Theology

Fr. Shannon discusses his upcoming book aimed at youth, exploring the impact of traditional devotionals on young people's faith. He critiques their limitations, emphasizing context and the potential for harmful theology. The conversation highlights the importance of innovative spiritual practices, encouraging young people to engage critically with scripture. The book includes journaling prompts for reflection, promoting a communal experience and empowering readers to ask questions and deepen their understanding of faith.

Rev. Mark E. Fowler from the @tanenbaumcenter joins us this week and discusses his journey from a Presbyterian upbringing to becoming an interfaith minister. Rev. Fowler guides Tanenbaum to the fulfillment of its mission to promote justice and build respect for religious difference by transforming individuals and institutions to reduce prejudice, hatred, and violence. He is a graduate of the One Spirit Interfaith Seminary, is an ordained Interfaith/Interspiritual minister, and is a Dean of second-year students at One Spirit Interfaith Seminary. In this episode, he explores the concepts of interfaith and interspirituality, emphasizing the importance of community and understanding among different faiths. Rev. Fowler shares insights from his work at the Tannenbaum Center, which focuses on combating religious prejudice and promoting justice. He reflects on personal experiences with spirituality, the impact of wounds from religious traditions on peoples’ spiritual journeys, and the intersection of faith and activism.    Takeaways Reverend Mark Fowler emphasizes the importance of community in interfaith work. Interfaith work involves knowing one another as neighbors and supporting each other. Interspirituality transcends traditional interfaith concepts, focusing on shared humanity. Tannenbaum Center aims to combat religious prejudice and promote justice. Personal experiences with religion can shape one’s spiritual journey significantly. Wounds from past religious experiences can influence current spiritual exploration. Christian privilege can be an invisible barrier to understanding religious diversity. Engagement in interfaith work can lead to healing and community building. Joy can be found in spending time with family and friends. The importance of investigating the relationship between culture and religion.   Chapters (04:23) Understanding Interfaith and Interspirituality (09:13) Personal Journey and Spiritual Background (18:21) The Role of Tannenbaum Center in Interfaith Work (27:31) Navigating Privilege and Spiritual Identity (33:12) Finding Joy and Community   Resources: Tanenbaum Center: https://tanenbaum.org/ Mark E. Fowler on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mark-fowler-9468b36  Follow Tanenbaum Center on IG: @tanenbaumcenter Join our online community at  Sanctuary Collective Community    If you want to support the Patreon and help keep the podcast up and running, you can learn more and pledge your support at patreon.com/queertheology   This transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors or omissions. (9s): Welcome to the Queer Theology Podcast. I’m Brian G Murphy. And I’m father Shannon, T l Kearns. We’re the co-founders of Queer Theology dot com and your hosts from Genesis, revelation. The Bible declares good news to LGBTQ plus people, and we want to show you how Tuning each week on Sunday for conversations about Christianity, queerness and transness, and how they can enrich one another. We’re glad you’re here. Hello. Hello. I’m excited to bring you another guest interview on the Queer Theology Podcast. Today we are talking to Reverend Mark E Fowler, who is the Chief Executive Officer of Tannenbaum, a secular non-sectarian nonprofit, providing thought leadership, innovative trainings and comprehensive solutions that foster respect for religious and non-religious beliefs and practices. (52s): Its mission is to promote justice and build respect for religious difference by transforming individuals and institutions to reduce prejudice, hatred, and violence. As CEO, Reverend Fowler is responsible for all of tenant bomb’s departments, the design and implementation of all tenant bomb trainings and the expansion of tenant bomb programs nationally and internationally. Reverend Fowler is a sought after keynote speaker and facilitator in all of tenant bomb’s core program areas, and has addressed organizations globally on issues of equality in race, gender, sexual orientation, and religion. Recently, Reverend Fowler delivered the keynote at the 2020 Diversity Best Practices Emerge Conference was featured in a fireside chat with Robert Cook, CEO, and president of F IRA’s 2020 Diversity Summit, and continued in his role as navigator at the 2020 unveiling of out Next’s latest curriculum outta the closet and into the C-suite. (1m 42s): Reverend Fowler earned a BA in English and Education at Duke University and was trained as a mediation and conflict resolution specialist with the NYC Department of Education. Reverend Fowler is also a graduate of the One Spirit. Interfaith Seminary is an ordained Interfaith slash Interspiritual minister and is a Dean of second year students at the One Spirit Interfaith Seminary. We are so glad to have you here today, Reverend Fowler. Thank you so much for joining us. Well, Reverend Mark, thank you so much for being here with us today. It’s just a joy to get to talk to you and share your story and share your work, And I know our listeners are gonna be really jazzed to hear about it. Thank you. It’s a pleasure to be here. So we’d like to start these interviews by asking if we were out at a queer dinner party or maybe like a church coffee hour, how would you introduce yourself to someone that you’re just getting to know? (2m 30s): Those is probably two different locations. Sure. Give us both of those answers then I wanna, I wanna hear the, the coffee hour and the cocktail party answer. Right. So at a, at a cocktail party or at a, a dinner or something like that. I’d probably say that I’m Mark, that I’m a native New Yorker, have been doing work in and around the community from a spiritual perspective for probably about 20, 25 years. And that includes being members of various different religious communities. I think if I were just kind of like hanging out at the church social, I’d probably talk about or say that, you know, I’m Mark Fowler, native New Yorker. (3m 15s): My journey started in the Presbyterian Church in Harlem and has kind of made its way through a number of spaces to now being a practicing interfaith Interspiritual minister. Yeah. And so can you talk about what interfaith means to you? I know lots of, it’s kind of a buzzwordy thing And I think lots of people, especially from Christian backgrounds, have good intentions when they head into interfaith work. But so what does that, what does that look like for you? Yeah, so personally, first I think I would say that I was not a person who was necessarily looking or searching for an Interspiritual path, and primarily because I grew up in a Christian environment, Presbyterian in Harlem, as I said. (4m 5s): And there is sometimes this, there are lots of assumptions and stereotypes about the difference between the black church experience as a theological precept and black people going to a church. And there’s kind of like this idea that, you know, there’s always, you know, tambourines and Hammond organs and you know, visitations of the Holy Ghost and all of that. And that was not my early experience. My experience in our Presbyterian church was one, things were a little bit more solemn, there were anthems, but it was a much more kind of relaxed, if you will, worship experience. (4m 46s): And for me, there weren’t other members of our family that practiced a faith different than the one that we all generally like went to. And so even in growing up in Harlem, like there was a Catholic church, which was predominantly InCorp, you know, had black congregants. There were places where other religious organizations gathered, but there wasn’t a lot of interaction between them except for if people happened to know each other in the buildings or the neighborhoods in which they lived. But there wasn’t a lot of visitation back and forth as I would grow older. Interfaith really did have to do with coming in contact with having some understanding of, and in some instances, beginning to practice or consider practices in traditions outside of the ones that I was familiar with. (5m 40s): When I think about interfaith work today different than in interfaith experience, interfaith work is often because we’re in the United States, most everything is kind of colored by Protestant Christianity in particular. But they generally, they tend to be spaces where people kind of like put their toe in the water at the, the very highest level of just meeting and knowing people of other traditions in deeper practices. It is communities that consciously and actively come together to know one another as neighbors and to be able to be of support to one another in times of trouble. (6m 22s): So an example of this for me, several years ago, there was a rabbi who was taken hostage in their temple via gunman himself and two other congregants. While that was going on, he had been a member of an interfaith group of religious leaders in their community. Nobody called them. As soon as they heard that the rabbi was in trouble, they self dispatched to that location to take care of his people while that horrible situation was being dealt with. And for me, that’s kind of one of the highest levels of interfaith experience and interfaith cooperation because you are no longer just like a representative of your faith. (7m 10s): You are a person that I know you are a member of my extended family and community, and if something happens to you, that’s wonderful, I celebrate that. But if there’s something that happens that’s troubling or there’s trouble, we are here for that as well. And I would say that inter spirituality is even a different construct than interfaith. Oh. So I, I love the distinction that you just made between an interfaith experience versus interfaith work. And not to like, I dunno put words in your mouth, but it, it’s, it sometimes feels like interfaith experiences might be a little bit like a melting pot, whereas like interi work is like everyone still remain retains their distinctiveness, but you’re working sort of together honoring those differences and working together like amongst and within them. (8m 1s): So yeah. Yes. And then, so I had a follow up question, but now I wanna know more about this inter spirituality. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So into spirituality is an ideal theological concept that I think really came into more knowledge, or at least was published about in the late nineties, early two thousands. There’s a book called The Mystic Heart, and then there’s another book called The Interest, the Becoming Interspiritual Age. And in both of those books, it talks about kind of like the condition that would exist beyond interfaith work as, as we were just been talking about it. (8m 41s): So where the concern for human humanity and the concern for human beings is outshined by any individual theological concept. And if anything that which we say we believe is actually in service to this larger ideal of global community, that there is no separation between people. There may be differences, but there’s no separation, there is no experience superior and inferior. And that whatever the goals and challenges we have of the day are for all of us to meet in a place that leaves us all. (9m 26s): Well, I love that. I love that. So the example that you shared of interfaith work was obviously a very sort of heightened emergency situation in your work at the Tanenbaum Center. Like what does that interfaith work look like on sort of an ongoing basis? Yeah, so at Tannin Bombs, first of all, we are a secular and non-sectarian not-for-profit. So we are not a religious organization ourselves. And that can get, you know, weird because people hear the name Tannenbaum and they automatically think that we are a Jewish organization aligned with Judaism, et cetera. We’re named after the Rabbi Mark Tannenbaum, and in particular because of his interfaith work before his death. (10m 12s): But we are not a religious organization. So a lot of our approach to this work is from a practical perspective. And how do you build, well, our mission is to combat religious prejudice, to promote justice, to build respect for religious difference. And so some of the ways that we do that are providing people with tools, resources, skills, so that they can navigate the religious diversity or the religious environment that they find themselves in. And with a goal of people being able to build bridges, relationships, coalitions, et cetera, that honor their individual faith journey. (10m 57s): Or even the journeys of people who don’t ascribe to a particular faith who are unaffiliated or atheist, agnostic, spiritual, but unaffiliated. All of those that we are trying to provide in the content areas in which we work an opportunity to consider what are my own biases and obstacles to really understanding and respecting the experience of someone, and how do we actually build, how do we address the concerns that we have, the communal concerns that we have where we find ourselves. Yeah, I know with this type of, you know, values driven work that the, the personal and the professional are often very much intertwined. (11m 37s): And so I would love to sort of rewind a little bit for you and can we sort of dive into you, you touched upon it a little bit, but sort of what is your background and experiences with religion like growing up and into adults? Yeah. And how has that shifted? What stayed the same? Yeah, what, what was the journey to hear? Yeah, so as I said, I, you know, grew up in a Presbyterian church in Harlem. I went to a Catholic junior high school in my neighborhood in the Bronx, where at the time, in seventh grade is the year, usually people participate in confirmation. And so I remember coming home and there are classes that are like built into the day, like there’s religious instruction classes. (12m 18s): So I remember coming home at one point and telling my mother, oh yeah, we’re getting ready for confirmation. She’s like, yeah, you’re not gonna be doing that. Like, you can go to the class all day long, but you’re not gonna be pre, you’re not gonna be like confirming yourself as a Catholic. Yeah. And I was kinda like, oh, okay. I mean, I didn’t know that there was anything, there wasn’t, it wasn’t presented as something that was wrong with Catholicism. It was just kind of like, you have a faith tradition and that’s the one that you’re going to follow. Was a little bit unchurched for a number of years because my mother decided, and we just, my sister And I didn’t really get along with some of the other kids in the church that we went to. (13m 2s): So we were happy to not go. And my mother had some concerns about like the church leadership at the time. So through high school I was pretty much unchurched. When I went to college, I started singing in the gospel choir And I had never sung in a gospel choir before. I’d never had that experience. And so during that first year, there was like, you know, learning this different wonderful music, but then there was this inner experience of God that I had not experienced before. And that was something that definitely continued through college and through that experience. (13m 42s): And then I joined new church that my mother had become affiliated with in the Bronx, and they refer to themselves as a non-denominational church that’s welcoming of all people. And so you had still, the majority of the majority to almost all of the congregants were black, but had come from a variety of experiences. Yet the church itself really kind of modeled the pastor’s training. And so it kind of operated as a Baptist church to a certain degree. And that church still exists. And I’ve had the honor of now preaching there after having been a member more than 20 years ago. (14m 24s): What, and then personally like, yeah, and then personally like meeting, like, you know, a friend of mine who is an AAN priestess and who was doing, who had been trained in and was doing indigenous practices and work and doing readings and things like that, which was also something that I had not experienced before my barber at one point. And at that time I actually had dreadlocks who was a Buddhist, who invited me to come to the temple to, you know, to meditate and chant. So I was just being introduced to other people’s experiences. (15m 4s): And I would say, again, it wasn’t so much that I was on this journey to find various experiences, but they were kind of finding me. And then in the early nineties, I joined a church called Unity of Fellow Unity, fellowship of Christ Church. Church started in Los Angeles as an AIDS ministry because at that particular time, as people were dying of aids, churches were not always funeral realiz people who had died of aids. And so within the LGBTQ plus community, there were people who had been ordained in a variety of traditions, and they started providing that service that grew into a church and social movement. (15m 52s): And I was a member there for many years. And that one was very much kind of like spanning a little bit of indigenous African ancestral tradition to Baptist and Pentecostal moments. So there was a lot that was happening inside of that experience as well. And I would say when I started working at Tannen Bound, what I started to experience in a different way, not necessarily so much from the personal expression, but really considering all of these traditions and people that I had never really thought about or knew about in depth or detail before, what was their lived experience in terms of how they were being treated equitably or not in the areas in which we work, which are education, healthcare, the workplace, and in peace building, or some might refer to it as conflict resolution still. (16m 52s): So that’s kind of been the journey. And then at in 2010, I decided to go to One Spirit, interfaith Seminary. And while I was a member at Unity, I had thought about pursuing, becoming a deacon. That did not happen while I was there, but there had been this earlier call to be of sacred service. And when I decided to fully answer that call, the interfaith model was one that was really appealing to me. Yeah, that’s really cool. I, my, my mom is a big, big, like we also grew up, I grew up going to Presbyterian Church and now I’m Jewish, but she’s like dabbling in Unity Foundation. (17m 42s): It’s much more her speed. I know when you were talking about sort of the ways in which different traditions were sort of like finding you, I I’m thinking of two different types of progressive Christians, LGBT Christians, and one is the sort of like, bring it on. I wanna like sort of sample everything. And then there’s another sort of archetype where I think it’s like, oh no, I can’t sample other things because like, those aren’t mine to, to take. And so I, I’m like curious sort of like your thoughts on the, like the, like what are people who are maybe grew up Christian and are sort of, maybe I’m still Christian, maybe I’m not still Christian, like maybe I’m curious, but I’m not exactly sure And I don’t know how you feel about religion. (18m 29s): Like what are some words of wisdom that you might have as they sort of deconstruct, reconstruct, find their spiritual footing? I don’t know how wise they’ll be, but Sure. The, the words that I’ll share. So I think there are a couple of things. One is if there are experiences that people have, and this is regardless of sexual orientation, gender identity or gender expression. But if there are experiences people have had where there is a wound or there is some kind of spiritual injury, that can often be what’s determining and deciding where and how to follow and what I want to explore, what I don’t think is open to me, et cetera. (19m 14s): And I do think that there, it’s important to at least be able to identify those wounds and consider how there might be some ongoing healing around that wound so that it closes over maybe the course of your life where there’s a scab for a period and then the scab falls off and then there’s new skin and then the skin feels in. Like I feel that to connect two different bodies of work I’ve participated in for a short period, I was, I worked in an organization that supported people who were HIV positive and or trying to remain negative. (19m 57s): And one of the things that I learned as I was being introduced to case management was for some people in recovery, depending on when they started using a particular drug, their emotional development stopped at the time that they began using and became addicted. And I have found that model to be helpful in thinking about how people pursue their spiritual life. So depending on where and when and how that wound happened, some people may find themselves wanting to explore a spiritual life, but emotionally may be responding to it from six or 10 or 13, 20, 25, whatever moment that was, that kind of interrupted, that natural experience is something that has to be like dealt with and adapted. (20m 47s): And I do think, in my experience, I, I’ve served as a dean at one spirit, and one of the things that I’ve often seen kind of consistently in classes is that people come to, into spiritual work in some ways because of that wound or being disassociated from a tradition that they were a member of. And what ultimately people find is that there is some reconciliation that was really beyond their imagination of reconciling with the tradition of their, their, the beginning of their journey or where that wound happened as a way for them to move into sacred service. (21m 31s): So there are any number of traditions, including non-Christian ones that require an adherence and almost a rejection of other traditions. But I think what people find in their lived religious and lived spiritual experience is that you can try and not see similarities in the ways in which people worship and believe, but you’re gonna see them. And the question becomes how are you gonna respond? Where what is black and white and right in front of you appears because it will. Yeah. It’s like we all use candles, lots of us use scents. (22m 13s): Most of us use our bodies in some way. Like Yes, yes, there are, there are all of these places of convergence that have to do with the experience of human beings seeking the divine in the ways in which they give language to that. Yeah. You’re also, And I love how you were like, I don’t know how wise this will be. And then it was just, I mean, just fire. So I, I often tell this story. I first told it a million years ago, close to 20 years ago when I was doing some activism on the equality ride, speaking at a conservative Christian college about, and we sort of like merged the story of the Garden of Eden and Genesis and this sort of my first gay relationship, but as a teenager, And I, like, I keep coming. (23m 0s): I mean, I keep on coming back to it partly because it really resonates with folks, but it’s sort of become like one of the cornerstone stories of mine. And I, And I think actually in coming up with that talk for this school was like when I really shifted in my head from like, I think it’s okay to be gay, to like I know it. And I had, And I had never until this moment realized like, oh, well, when I was a teenager was when I first had that conflict between my faith and myself. And so it like makes sense that EI was in my twenties by this point, but like going back and revisiting that moment and saying like, here’s how this is holy was so, yeah. (23m 45s): Like, oh yeah, of course, of course. That’s why that story in particular Yes. Means so much to me. And so, oh, that’s just, I’m, I love it. I’m seeing it on, anyway. It’s really cool. Thank you for that insight. I wanna talk more about like tenant balm and your work there in particular, we’ve sort of, given that the high level, I know that you do, you know, some events on life, some events in person in different cities. Like what is, for someone who’s not yet a part of the work, like what is, what are some like ways in or Yeah. Yeah. So there are different ways in, in our education work. So first of all, one of the things I just want to shout out my communications team for is that they do an amazing job maintaining all of our social media presences, our website, our YouTube page, all of those are places where there is, there are resources, recordings, et cetera. (24m 37s): In our education work, it’s pretty much directed towards teachers, But we increasingly are doing more work with parents and doing more work with school personnel broadly defined and occasionally more work with students. And so there are, there’s all of the resources that we have, but there are often trainings that are done online where people can participate in our workplace work. We do a lot of work with global corporations, large not-for-profits and government agencies. We have two convenings a year. One of ’em, which is gonna be next week, excuse me, our Religious Diversity Leadership Summit. We’re gonna be holding it in Philadelphia at the Franklin Institute. (25m 20s): And that is our general audience conference. So people who are intrigued and interested in the idea of religious diversity, inclusion, and belonging in the workplace. We often have people who are members of, or leaders of employee resource, group of faith-based, employee resource groups, chief human resources officers, chief Diversity officers. And we’re really just presenting information from a variety of speakers and panels on what are some of the current trends and topics that are of interest to people. We also convene what we call the Religious Diversity Symposium. And that is particularly for senior leaders to really think about and strategize what’s the long-term vision and goal within their companies and their institutions on building a culture that is respectful of religious differences, including the experiences of people who are completely unaffiliated from religion altogether. (26m 19s): In our healthcare work, we do a lot of webinars for healthcare professionals and those involved with providing care to people who are not medical providers on the ways in which patients and families make decisions for their care that are based in their religious and spiritual beliefs. And in some instances, those who do not have a belief and may be in a healthcare institution that is faith-based in some way. And how do they navigate their experience. We’ve created curriculum for nursing students, medical students, residency programs, and we have a book that we wrote called The Medical Manual for Religiou Cultural Competence. And then in our Peace building work, I think the most direct access is through the case studies. (27m 3s): So we’ve written two books that are volumes of the work of our peacemakers in action who are women and men religiously motivated working for peace in active conflict zones. Their life or their liberty may have been at risk. And one of the things that we found was most important was that finding people who were relatively unknown, who you are not gonna see on CNN, you’re not gonna hear on religion news service or W or NPR, but they’re doing the work at the grassroots level and their commitment is inspired by their religious and spiritual beliefs. So now, we actually, a couple of years ago started moving towards a podcast model for our case studies. (27m 44s): And so we have two of our peacemakers, Dani Jira from Sri Lanka, and the Reverend Jackie Mana Puti from Indonesia. Their case studies are actually podcasts that people can listen to and can hear their story and their voice. And where can folks find that? On our website@tannenbaum.org. And you can just tool around to the different programs and you can find, if you go to tannenbaum.org/peace peace building, you’ll find access to the ca to the podcast case studies. Great. And we’ll put links to all of these things in the show notes. Of course, yes. You mentioned, you mentioned religiously motivated, and so I Yes. (28m 25s): Obviously, you know, as you said, Nan Baum is a non-religious, non-sectarian nonprofit, but of course, the people who are do the work, I imagine many or most folks are religiously motivated Yes. In some way. And so, but I, And I know also for many people, sometimes justice work or activism or peacemaking feels like maybe something separate from like their religious or the religion that they were, are used to. And so in what ways does sort of your faith or religion motivate you towards this type of workout? Like how are those intertwined for you personally? Hmm. No one has ever asked me that question before. Brian. That’s a great question. So the first job that I applied for at Tannenbaum was to be the educator and trainer for what then was called the Religion and Diversity Education Program. (29m 17s): Hmm. I had been a public high school teacher for 11 years here in New York City. I had been a trainer in a program at the Anti-Defamation League called the World of Difference Institute. I had actually done some work around coaching people and professional development, but, and had never really, and had been a spiritual person or involved in religion and spirituality my whole life. But I was never, ever seeking a job that had anything to do with religion. And when I saw the job description, I was like, that is really interesting. It wasn’t something that I was looking for, but when I came across it, I was kind of like, huh, this is an interesting way to kind of, you know, spend time while you’re making money. (30m 0s): So when I started at Tannenbaum, it wasn’t so much driven because I felt like it was, being at Tannenbaum was fulfilling a spiritual mandate for me. As much as this is a topic that, or this is an, an area religion is something that has been helpful, useful, has supported me, And I wonder what it’s like, Hmm. Within the first two years of working at Tannenbaum, one of the things that I came across was an article that was written around white Christian privilege and Christian privilege in particular. (30m 43s): And it was built around the idea of Debbie McIntosh’s article on unpacking the in invisible knapsack around white privilege. But this author identified that, so I can identify as white, but I’m also Jewish and there are some privileges that come with Christian privilege that I don’t get. So he then kind of took the concept and personalized it as a, a clinician, because I believe he’s a, he was a, a therapist, I believe. And just talking about like his lived experience that also is impacted by Christian privilege. I had never thought of my religious identity as one in which I experienced privilege. (31m 30s): Hmm. So being, being a black man in the United States, being a gay man in the United States, I was all kinds of, of acquainted and had all kinds of evidence as to the places and moments where I was not treated equitably and didn’t have to surrender any of that. But this was a moment where I had to, I, I really came to this thing like, huh. So as black as I am, and as gay as I am, because I come from a Christian background, not even practicing as I did as a child, there are things in life that I have privilege around. There are concerns about daily living that I do not have simply because I come from that background, not even fully fully practicing it any longer. (32m 20s): So I would say for me now, my kind of like moral drive around being a tannenbaum and leading tannenbaum has to do with that realization that I probably had about 16 years ago. That there’s a responsibility that I had and have as someone who was raised Christian in the United States and even has had an education in what it means for me personally to be a person who respects various religious and spiritual traditions and the experiences of people who are not connected to religion at all. (33m 1s): Yeah. It’s, you know, that’s one of the ways privilege operates right. Is that you don’t see it when you’re the beneficiary of it. Right. And I, you know, I, I know that I, my friends who are trans have talked about, especially who’ve been like, oh, when I transitioned, I suddenly, I like really got a crash course in it because I like saw the ways in which the world treated me differently. Yes. And I, as I’ve been, as I converted to ju to ju to Judaism a few years ago, I’m like, oh, I like, I, I, yeah, I see it. And I, I, I think that, like, I oftentimes hear people say like, well, America’s like not a Christian nation. And I’m like, I don’t know, like ask any non-Christian, right. (33m 42s): Like, ask anyone who’s like something else, right? Like, if you’re like an atheist, but your parents celebrate Christmas and you celebrate Christmas, like Yeah. Yeah. Like, you’re not Christian in some ways, but like in other ways you kind of are. And so like yeah, I think one of Those things that’s really interesting, sort of be on the other end of it and be like, oh yeah, like the America in particular is like really oriented around Christianity, whether that’s Jesus Christianity or Christmas Christianity. Like they’re, they’re both expressions of, of it. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that there’s, there’s something about when things become implicit, and we generally tend to focus more on the explicit because that tends to be the shiny ball that people can kind of like look at and scream at and react to. (34m 30s): But what we don’t necessarily take enough time to consider is how long it took for things to, that were and are religious to become such a part of the culture and the experience that nobody even thinks about its relationship to religion any longer. It’s just the way it’s or the way it’s supposed to be. And those are usually good catchphrases as to, oh, there’s something going on, there’s something more that I need to investigate here. So your work at Tannin Bomb, obviously there’s like very specific sort of channels and areas of focus for people who are gonna be the, the most likely to get involved. (35m 16s): You know, healthcare professionals, corporate leaders, things like that. If there’s just someone at home listening and they’re like, I don’t know, I’m just like a, I’m like a queer person and I’m like really interested in what Reverend Mark here is saying, And I like, I, I’m like, I’m hungry for more. Like, what are some suggestions for of steps that those folks might, might take? Like is it getting involved with you somehow? Is it practices for themselves? What does that look like? So I think one of the things that, well, there are a couple of ways. So one is we have had a Faith and Pride series for going on for a couple of years. And I would really encourage people to check that out just to see not just, you know, my mad rantings, but you know, what are other people from other traditions talking about in terms of their experience of faith and pride. (36m 3s): Because we really are trying to, and would really welcome, like if people wanted to share, we have kind of like a, it’s through a device called a system called Memory Fox, where people can like, respond to some prompts about their experience of their intersection, of their life, of faith and, and their life and pride and like how does, how do, what are some of the lessons they’ve learned and experiences that they’d wanna share. So that’s one way for people who just wanna learn more about Tannin Beum. We have something called Coffee with Mark. I mean, I, I, it, it just, I can’t barely get it out of my mouth ’cause it’s just so crazy to be talking about yourself in the third person. But it’s the opportunity for members of our community, both old and new, to find out kind of like, what are the new things that we are doing and what are some of the projects that we’re working on? (36m 55s): And really to ask people, answer people’s questions about, about our work. So those are two really good, immediate ways to get involved. Cool. And it also might be that they could nudge folks at their work, people and leadership, or at the employee resource group representatives to go to go check you out too as well. They, you know, you know, if it happened that way, that would be okay. Like it wouldn’t be a bad thing. Sure, sure, sure, sure, sure, sure. Well, so if like folks want to stay connected with you personally and or tenon bomb as the organization Yes. Like, what are the best ways to do that? Yeah, so I am on LinkedIn, so anyone can find me as Mark Fowler, Mark E Fowler on LinkedIn. (37m 40s): We also have an Instagram account, which is, I believe at Tannenbaum Center. And I we’re, you know, constantly posting. And that’s an account where there’s, it’s, you know, you’re gonna get a response immediately. We’re also on Facebook and on X so people can follow me and follow us there as well. Awesome. And we like to close out by asking like, what’s one thing that’s bringing you joy these days? Oh, definitely spending time with friends and family is, is bringing me joy. This past weekend I was at my grand and niece’s, if that’s the way you say it, my niece’s daughter’s second birthday party. Mm. (38m 20s): Nothing better than, you know, two year olds and other kids running around, jumping in and out of the pool, eating stuff that they shouldn’t, all of that. And spending time with, you know, my sister and her children and my mother. And you know, this is a time for community And I really do, I’m mindful of the numbers of people on the planet that do not have an experience of community. So when, when I I, I don’t take for granted the numbers of places and spaces where I am welcome as that line from Cheers where everybody knows my name and they don’t necessarily care about what I do, but they just know and appreciate me. (39m 9s): So that’s something that gives me joy. I love that. Well, thank you so much for being here, Reverend Mark, it’s been an absolute pleasure. Thank you so much, Brian. The Queer Theology podcast is just one of many things that we do at Queer Theology dot com, which provides resources, community, and inspiration, fort LGBTQ Christians and straight cisgender supporters. To Dive into more of the action, visit us at Queer Theology dot com. You can also connect with us online on Facebook, Twitter, Tumblr, and Instagram. We’ll see you next week. The post Exploring Interfaith with Reverend Mark E. Fowler appeared first on Queer Theology.

We’re showcasing another throwback episode for this week and this one is the beginning of a series we did on the Gospel of Mark. Mark is one of our favorite books of the Bible. There is so much richness to the history in Mark and for this first episode in the series, we look at the context and time in which this gospel was written. We had such a good time diving deep into this sacred story, and trying to pull out new insights for today. There is so much relevance that can be carried into our own lives from these ancient texts.    Resources: Listen to the full series on Mark Week 2: What’s the Deal With the Pigs? Week 3: Healing and Oppression Week 4: When Empires Crumble Join our online community at  Sanctuary Collective Community  If you want to support the Patreon and help keep the podcast up and running, you can learn more and pledge your support at patreon.com/queertheology The post Throwback: The First Gospel – Mark  appeared first on Queer Theology.

We have both found ourselves living in really different communities – Brian in New York City, and Shay in rural Kansas. That got us to thinking about the contrasting religious experiences of living in urban and rural settings and reflecting on how these environments shape understandings of community, spirituality, and the presence of the Divine. There has been a theme of going to the desert or the quiet of the country to hear God, but what if paying attention and tuning in helps us find God in everyday city life as well? We emphasize the need for connection and community in both urban and rural contexts, ultimately leading to a deeper understanding of faith and presence in diverse spaces.   Takeaways We are living in two very different places. The spaces we inhabit shape our religious imagination. Cities are often seen as sites of wickedness compared to gardens. Urban areas provide more safety nets than rural communities. There is a sense of community in rural areas that can be lacking in cities. Religiosity can feel overt and uncomfortable in rural settings. Community hospitality is often stronger in smaller towns. Finding God requires training our attention to the divine in everyday life. Paying attention to the details can reveal the presence of God. Both urban and rural settings have unique challenges and opportunities for faith.   Chapters (02:20) Exploring Urban vs. Rural Spirituality (05:03) The Role of Community in Different Spaces (11:32) Finding God in Everyday Life (16:57) Attention and the Divine in Our Environments Resources:.  Say Yes by Andrea Gibson Join our online community at  Sanctuary Collective Community    If you want to support the Patreon and help keep the podcast up and running, you can learn more and pledge your support at patreon.com/queertheology This transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors or omissions. (9s): Welcome to the Queer Theology Podcast. I’m Brian G Murphy. And I’m father Shannon, T l Kearns. We’re the co-founders of Queer Theology dot com and your hosts from Genesis, revelation. The Bible declares good news to LGBTQ plus people, and we want to show you how Tuning each week on Sunday for conversations about Christianity, queerness and transness, and how they can enrich one another. We’re glad you’re here. Hello there. And welcome to August. If you’re in the Northern hemisphere, I hope that you are staying cool. It’s blistering here where I am not sure about where you are, Shannon, of how hot it’s where you are, yet it’s blistering there too. He’s nodding his head. And for our southern hemisphere friends, I hope you’re enjoying your winter. I saw on a update from someone that we follow in Australia and he was saying it’s like five degrees Celsius there. (54s): So that’s, that’s wild. ’cause I’m like, that sounds delightful to me right now. And so before we started recording this, Shannon And I were just sort of like catching up on our lives and it occurred to us that We are living in two very different places and we were just sort of like reflecting on the sort of like what it, what it means to like be somewhere. So I am at, at the time of this recording, I’m living in New York City and it’s a population of like around, I forget like 9 million, 8 million. And Shannon is living in independent, Shannon is living in a small town in Kansas, which is a population of about 8,000. So wildly different experiences. (1m 36s): And I think that like, I don’t know, there’s like something about, we both live in America obviously, and there’s something about like real America and like what is real America when people say that they probably actually mostly mean like suburban red states. And I’m obviously in a blue state, but not in the suburbs and neither is really in the suburbs. And we’re just thinking about like the ways in which God has talked about being present in cities, not in cities in the desert, not in the desert. And we just think there’s like something there about place and location. And so we want to sort of explore that together. So like sh anything else to sort of add to that sort of setup, Shay? So I, I just think it’s also interesting in this current moment that we’re in to like reflect upon how the spaces that we’re in shape our religious lives and, and in some ways like our religious imagination and also like how we might be able to both find God in all of the spaces that we’re in, but also like help to potentially challenge the imagination of the, of the space we’re in if it needs it. (2m 40s): Right. Yeah. Yeah. And I I I would actually probably posit that like both the spaces that we’re in need some kind of challenging. Yeah. It’s just gonna look really different. Yeah. First off, what I was thinking, what prompted this was I had was journaling a little while ago And I was reflecting upon the ways in which desert imagery gets used in religious texts that, you know, the Israelites wandered in the desert, Jesus went out into the desert. And then even like post post scripture, like especially within Christianity, there’s like the desert fathers sort of Christian monastics, Christian hermits. There’s sort of like this sort of the sense that sort of aloneness can be like one way that you access God. (3m 24s): And there’s sort of I think a romanticizing about the countryside, the country solitude from Walt Whitman to like classic American paintings, just sort of, when we talk about quote unquote real America, what sort of, what image sort of conjures that to mind there. And I don’t know, I was just thinking like there’s like a hustle and a bustle and an electricity sort of in the air in New York City and like what if God is just as much in like the sparks on the subway track and in the hiss of the steam coming up from the manhole and in the honks of the taxi cabs as God is in the rustling of the wind and the pitter-patter of drizzle on the riverbed. (4m 12s): And yeah, so I think that there’s, so I was like wanting to like reclaim urban life thinking about the ways in which, you know, Gotham in, in Batman comics is sort of like this like place of decay and crime and Sodom and gamar, these like, sort of like cities being dangerous. And the reality is I just Googled it, like 82% of Americans live in cities and urban areas. So like real America is like cities like this is like where people actually live. And so there’s like something there, which is not to say cities are perfect, there’s like gross economic inequality in many cities, especially like in New York City. (4m 54s): But so I, yeah, so there’s, but like, so I yes. I’m just like noodling on on that. And so like, I guess like what are the ways in which like, ’cause Shay you’ve lived in both cities Yeah. And rural areas. And so like what are the ways in which, and you, you like what from like rural to city back to rural, and it’s like what are some ways in which your understanding of like what it means to live in the country or in the city have like shifted and also how you’ve experienced God in in those places? Yeah, I mean, just to, just to touch on a couple of things that you said, you know, one of the things that jumps out at me in thinking about imagery, right? We see in, in the things that you mentioned, Gotham, Saddam, and Kimura. (5m 34s): But in general, like all throughout scripture there is this sense of cities as sites of wickedness as opposed to gardens, right? That there is always this like juxtaposition between the, the city and the garden, which I, I find really kind of fascinating and, and like you said, we do know that there are gross economic inequalities in cities and yes. Also in rural communities, like yeah, totally be rural. But one of the things that I think is, is interesting is that there’s also much better safety nets Yeah. Inside of cities. And like we can talk about like there are lots of reasons for that. (6m 17s): Not all of them good, right? Like there there has been like a massive, you know, economic pull out of rural communities that has like devastated many of the things that yeah would have been historically safety nets in the past. And, and so like that’s a problem. But I do think that there is just simply because of like not only density of population, but also like density of resources that there are more protections for you should you need it, right? There are, there are shelters that you can go to, there are organizations that can possibly provide for your needs in ways that like don’t exist in, in the town that I’m in, like I think there’s maybe a shelter. (7m 10s): And yet there is also like poverty and people experiencing homelessness in a city of 8,000 people. And so one could also say like, the failures of the rural community to not take care of, of their population is higher. So like that was one thing that kind of stuck out to me as you were talking. I also reflect upon how, especially where I am, I, I think that there is a combination, particularly here in Kansas and in Oklahoma where I’m spending some time where we’re not just rural, we’re also, it’s still kind of considered the Midwest, but it is, it feels south to me in a way. (7m 56s): Like I’ve never lived this far south before. There is an overt religiosity everywhere I go. Like I have never been told to have a blessed day more in my life than the last like two years in a not sarcastic way, right? Like, I think people have told me to have a blessed day on the internet and in, in yeah. Urban spaces, but it was sarcastic here it’s like actually genuine. And so, but so I think about like how that overt religiosity kind of plays out and, and also it is expected that everyone is on the same page and, and on board with that religiosity, with those expressions and that you are grateful for them. (8m 46s): And so I find myself often deeply uncomfortable in both like, oh, that was a very sweet and encounter at the quick trip, but also like, why are, why are we saying that to people and what is the assumption behind that? And not to mention like the fact that there are, I often joke about the town that I’m living in, it feels like there are more churches than people and like how, how does that play out? And like the assumption is that you go to church, but there are all of these tiny churches, right? And like how does that impact how we’re taking care of our community and showing up for each other and, and is there a sense of I take care of the people in my congregation but not this other congregation. (9m 26s): And I think that that’s really fascinating too, all while saying I, I do feel like there is definitely a more community minded spirit here in Kansas than I experienced in Minneapolis. And I think partially that is ’cause like Minneapolis is kind of a weird beast of a city in that it is very Midwest and like lots and lots of people grew up in Minneapolis and so like they have their friends that they’ve had their friends since kindergarten. So, and, and so as someone who moved there, it was very hard to find and make community. It was just not set up for that in, in the ways that like when I moved to Kansas, even before I moved, I already had a community here. (10m 14s): Yeah. Because they were just so like excited to welcome people and especially excited to like, welcome outsiders and that was not something I experienced in Minneapolis. And so I think that like there is a hospitality here, right? That is not the hospitality that I experienced in, in the city of Minneapolis. It also reminds me like when you show up to a small church or a small synagogue, like often, especially like if you’re younger, like, and like that, they’re like just like so excited that it’s like there’s someone new. And so I could see moving to this small town, you are like not young, but you’re not old. You’re like in your forties, you’re queer, you’re an artist. (10m 56s): And so I could imagine those types of people in your small town being like, PE people, people like you don’t move here. So we’re like, we’re so excited about that. Whereas like in Minneapolis it’s like, oh, you’re like a queer artist, like moving to a city like cool. We got, we have a lot of those already. Yeah. Yeah. So there’s an element that just like, I, I see that parallel there. Yeah, I, I remember when I was living in Los Angeles, another like, yeah, the other, one of the other largest cities in America, I remember my, my predominantly LGBT synagogue was partnering with Sage, the sort of nonprofit for LGBT, older adults and elders to do like a Hanukkah party for like the Jewish folks, a part of that organization. (11m 40s): And I remember being like, oh yeah, like if you’re old and you live in a city, like, especially like if you’re a queer person, like you can be part of sage and then like the 20 somethings and the 30 somethings and the 40 somethings from like the queer synagogue will come and celebrate Hanukkah with you. Like, and they can just like hop on the bus and get there. Whereas like if you live somewhere else, you have to drive further. You’re just more spread out. There might not be like a d there’s only so many queer people in your, in your small town that there is just sort of like a critical mass of people that makes, especially for queer life, there’s like a vibrancy there that there’s not, there’s a, it’s a different type of vibrancy in small, like small town gay bars. (12m 22s): And so I was like sort of struck by that element of it. And I do think that like, it’s really easy in big cities to feel surrounded by people and alone. I think because people have their lives and their friends or like, and sometimes in big cities like their careers and so they’re just sort of like go, go, go, go, go. And so like, it can be harder to plug in and make those connections and also if you like, are able to sort of take the time and find those people that like, there’s something really special about being able to, I don’t know, like I live in the same building as two of my friends, right? (13m 11s): Like when I, I’ve like often lived within walking distance of like seven friends, eight friends, which is when I lived in the suburbs, like I had some, like a few friends in my neighborhood, but most friends I had to drive to get to. And so there’s just sort of like this closeness that, that makes like casual connections easier or like spur of the moment connections easier. And that, because especially in New York City, it’s a very public transit heavy city like millionaire CEOs and homeless people are like riding the same subways together. And so there’s like no illusions of like separateness, like we are physically smushed together and have to figure out how to occupy the same space together. (13m 52s): Which is like, not to say that like the millionaires are like suddenly like more generous or like not racist because of that experience, but there’s just sort of like a, it’s like a different, it, there’s like orients you to the other in a different way. And I, you know, I it’s, it’s interesting when folks come from other places to visit of all different types of backgrounds that there’s like the, the city can like feel scary to them ’cause there’s just like people everywhere and it’s loud and there’s someone asking for money and there’s like someone sleeping on the corner and like, what do you do with all of that? And it’s like someone who’s lived in a city my entire adult life, it’s just like, oh, these are just like the people that make up the city with me. You don’t actually have to be scared of them. (14m 32s): I’m scared of being in, in the suburbs or, or, or like in a rural place where it’s like there’s no houses for as far as I can see. It’s dead silent. Like that’s terrifying to me. Like I want, I want to like be able to hear the person on the other side of my wall and then there’s like this, like this closeness that there to me feels like some sort of Divine synergy. And it’s interesting because as you’re talking, I I think that that same communal closeness is in rural communities, right? And it’s the sense of there are only so much of us, so we have to figure out how to get along, right? Like yeah, if you, you can’t, if you get mad at the one person who owns the one restaurant in town, like you gotta figure that out because there’s nowhere else to go. (15m 21s): Or like there’s one guy who, you know, mows lawns or shovel snow. So like yeah, you gotta, you gotta, it’s like the town mechanic. Exactly. You know, there aren’t a lot of choices and there is beauty in that, right? It’s you like figure out, you know, like you said, how to get along, you figure out how to build community informed community. And I think that like the difference, right? People I think often conflate rural with suburban, which is like very different. Like there is a, there is a, an illusion of self-sufficiency that one can have when you live in the suburbs that is like not possible in either urban spaces or rural spaces. (16m 4s): Like it’s just not, there is no illusion that like I’m making it on my own when I have this community around me. Right? And I, I look at, I look at that And I, there was a, I I think I’ve told this story before of like when I first moved here and the bed that I ordered like wasn’t getting put together correctly and within 10 minutes someone had found like someone with a metal grinder to like fix the bed that I had ordered from Amazon. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. And in a way that like had I been in another space, I would’ve, you know, driven to loads in the suburbs and like, or purchased a new whatever and this was a real sense of community like gathering around to make, make this possible. (16m 51s): And I also think that there’s something here in, And I don’t know, I don’t know what this is exactly, but like I’m thinking about like for queer progressive people of faith, there are challenges in both in finding and making community and like living out your religious life in both urban and rural spaces. Like here the closest like overtly affirming church that I feel like would have my back is almost an hour away, right? And so like if I want to make, if I wanna be a part of a church community, like I’m probably going to have to travel in, in a different way and in the, in the midst of the like overt religiosity, which in some cases seems like it would make engaging in faith easier. (17m 45s): It actually sometimes feels like for a trans person in rural America, like it actually feels less easy, right? That they’re, that that overt Christian display like sometimes makes me feel unsafe or like excluded. Yeah. I’m not in a space where I can, where I can worship. Whereas like I think in, in urban spaces, right? Like you have options, there are options of congregations and synagogues and all different sorts of, of places to engage in worship. And also there are so many options of so many things that like engaging in religious community is a choice and it’s not a choice that people are always making. (18m 29s): And so like how do you build that community? Which I think brings me to like my larger point in all of this. And I was thinking of this in the very, from the very beginning when you were talking about, you know, God in the his of the subway and the manhole covers that like, all of this brings me back to an aspect of attention and like how do we train our attention to find the divine where we are? Right? And I think that like there is this sense of back the monastics, right? There was this sense of like, there is so much happening in the city that I have to go to the caves and the desert and the whatever in order to have the space and silence to like hear the voice of the divine. (19m 14s): Yeah. But I think that almost all of them would then say it, the intention was never to then remain there. It was always to then train yourself to then come back to the community with a new musculature to be able to hear right where you are. Yeah. And I think that that is the, the work that’s in front of us of like how do we train ourselves to tune in and pay attention where we are to finding the divine. Yeah. I’m, I’m, that really resonates with me this sort of like paying attention piece that, so I turned 40 like a few weeks ago at this point and Andrea Gibson actually died the day before I turned 40, which was like just weird clusterfuck of emotion for me. (20m 3s): But I was just like thinking about the ways in which they, Andrea Gibson, like really like paid attention and it was like in the particularities and the specificities of their poems and their observations and their musings like that I think is what really like crackled and sizzled for people. Like, I, like I, I remember the first, the first poem I think that I ever introduced me to Andrew Gibson, like, I don’t know 15 years ago was, was probably say, I think it’s called Say Yes When Two Violins are placed in a room, if a court on one violin is struck, the other violin will sound that note. (20m 45s): If this is your definition of hope, this Is for you. And it’s like it starts with this like specific thing of like a string on a violin and then like that becomes like hope. And I don’t know, like a violin isn’t inherently hopeful, right? But like there’s, they, they noticed something in this like two violins strings resonating togetherness of it. And it reminds me of like Mary Oliver’s poem, instructions for Living a Life Pay Attention, be astonished to Tell about it. And that like, I think that’s the work that we have been doing here. What that that we before like rambling about before, before I started recording this was like that I, as I was turning approaching 40 and turning 40, I’ve just been like reflecting on my life and very, very content with it and very pleased with it. (21m 35s): And there’s been a lot that’s gone really well and a lot that’s gone really terribly. And I think that my life today looks like absolutely nothing like what I hoped it would look like when I was 12 or 16 or 18 or 22 or 24. And also like, it’s so fucking fabulous. Like it’s just fantastic. Like, I’m so grateful for it. And, And I think that so much of that is because of the paying attention that queering theology has done for me, that I’m so thankful that I’m queer because it like forced me to question everything around me. (22m 15s): And even before we Shay you, you And I started doing this work together, I was like, I really had to like figure out like what is my life? Who am I, what is the purpose of life? What is God? What is the universe? Where do I fit into all of this? I didn’t have all of the answers to all that figured out, but like queerness and not fitting into the culture at, in 1998, 2003, whenever like forced me to this sort, like forced me to pay attention And that like, the more that I do this work, it’s like I feel like that’s where the juicy stuff of life is. And I think that this, this work, like we have a podcast, we have a book coming out next year. (22m 56s): We don’t, it’s spoiler alert, we don’t make very much money from it. So like, we’re certainly not doing it for the money, but like, it, it is sort of like a work that we bring ourselves to, but like it’s, we started this work because we were sort of doing it as a personal practice already on our own and we found immense value in it and we wanted to share that with others. And so like, I know this started with the city and the country, but like I think that there’s like something here about the paying attention to it. Like God is already everywhere. It’s if you’ll pay attention and look for them, will you, will you find God? And so like, yeah, I’m just, I would love to hear from y’all also like where are the ways in which like God shows up like in your particular place because like, I only in the same way that we’re always talking about, like, everyone has different experiences of queerness and so we need them all to fully understand the divine. (23m 49s): I’ve only ever lived in suburban Maryland in Los Angeles and New York City and with some stints in, with some stints in like, not like suburban Boston and a little bit of time in, in small town Michigan. But like I’ve, I’ve only have a handful of experiences, right? And so like where are the ways in which like God is showing up in y’all’s life? I dunno, send us an email or come onto Instagram and, and share that with us. Anything oth other, any other like sort of like musings on God in cities and God in the country. For you, Shea I just echo what you said. You know, I think that we can find the divine everywhere and, and part of the work then is like, how do we, how do we tune ourselves to, to notice better? (24m 41s): And I, I think, you know, reading poetry is one way and dabbling in writing poetry, even bad poetry is another way. And, you know, going to, again, the, the artists always can help us point the way forward. And so what, who are the, who are the artists that you’re looking to right now as, as people who are helping you to see in new ways? And would love to hear that too. If you wanna share. The Queer Theology podcast is just one of many things that we do at Queer Theology dot com, which provides resources, community, and inspiration for LGBTQ Christians and straight cisgender supporters. To dive into more of the action, visit us at Queer Theology dot com. (25m 22s): You can also connect with us online on Facebook, Twitter, Tumblr, and Instagram. We’ll see you next week. The post Rural God, City God appeared first on Queer Theology.

Andrew Gurza (@andrewgurza) joins Brian this week on the podcast to talk about sex, disability, and his new book, “Notes From a Queer Cripple.” Andrew is an award winning Disability Awareness Consultant and the Chief Disability Officer and Co-founder of Bump’n, a sex toy company for and by disabled people.  Andrew uses they/he pronouns and identifies proudly as disabled.  He is also the host of Disability After Dark: The Podcast Shining a Bright Light on Disability Stories. In this conversation, Andrew shares their journey as a queer disabled person, discussing their experiences with sexuality, disability advocacy, and the importance of creating inclusive spaces. They delve into their work as a speaker and author, emphasizing the need for open discussions about sex and disability. The conversation highlights the challenges faced in the community, the impact of critiques, and the joy of connecting with others through shared experiences.   Takeaways Andrew has been a disability consultant for 14 years. They emphasize the importance of discussing sex and disability openly. Andrew’s book is a love letter to queer disabled people. They advocate for the inclusion of disabled sexuality in mainstream conversations. Andrew’s experiences with sex work have transformed their relationship with intimacy. They believe that disabled people deserve to explore their sexuality freely. Andrew’s journey includes creating a sex-positive community for disabled individuals. They highlight the need for more accessible spaces for disabled people to express their sexuality. Andrew’s work aims to challenge societal norms around disability and sexuality. They encourage others to see the beauty in their bodies and desires.   Chapters (02:40) Talking About Sex and Disability (05:37) The Journey to Disability Advocacy (08:29) The Book: Notes from a Queer Cripple (11:19) Sex Work and Intimacy (14:09) The Importance of Connection (17:01) Embracing Sexuality and Body Positivity (19:50) The Power of Humor in Disability Advocacy (22:52) The Influence of Queer Media (25:10) Creating Inclusive Spaces for Disabled Queer People (28:32) The Impact of the Deliciously Disabled Party (31:07) Navigating Critiques and Misunderstandings (34:35) The Complexity of Disability and Sexuality (37:21) The Importance of Community and Support (40:19) Final Thoughts on Sexuality and Disability   Resources:. Notes From a Queer Cripple by Andrew Gurza Learn more about Andrew Gurza https://www.andrewgurza.com/about Join our online community at  Sanctuary Collective Community   This transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors or omissions. (9s): Welcome to the Queer Theology Podcast. I’m Brian G Murphy. And I’m father Shannon, T l Kearns. We’re the co-founders of Queer Theology dot com and your hosts from Genesis, revelation. The Bible declares good news to LGBTQ plus people, and we want to show you how Tuning each week on Sunday for conversations about Christianity, queerness and transness, and how they can enrich one another. We’re glad you’re here. Hello. Hello. Hello and welcome back to another episode of the Queer Theology Podcast. Today we’ve got a really exciting interview with Andrew Gza. Have been a fan and follower of Andrew Online. I think I first saw him through the website, hammer Rose, and I’ve been following his Twitter and his Instagram listening to his podcast for many, many, many years now. (50s): And so I’m just like a little, little bit of a fanboy over this interview. Andrew Gurza is an award-winning disability awareness consultant uses they he pronouns and identifies proudly as disabled. Their work has been featured on A-B-B-C-C-B-C Daily Extra Gay Times, uk, Huffington Post, the Advocate Everyday feminism mashable out.com, and several anthologies. He was a subject of an award-winning national film board of Canada documentary called Picture This. Andrew has guested on a number of podcasts including Dan Savage’s, Savage Love, and Cameron Esposito’s Query. He has spoken all over the world on sex disability and what it means to be a queer cripple. He is also the host of Disability After Dark, The Podcast Shining a Bright Light on Disability Stories, which won a Canadian podcast award in 2020. (1m 36s): One was a queer tea award nominee and was chosen as an honoree of the 2020 Web Awards. The show is available on all platforms. Andrew’s also the creator of the viral hashtag Disabled People are hot and relevant to today’s conversation. He’s the author of a new book, Notes From a Queer Cripple. I so enjoyed talking with Andrew And I think that you are going to enjoy the conversation as well. So let’s dive in. Andrew, thank you so much for being here with me today. Brian, thank you for having me here today. It’s such a pleasure. I am like a little bit fanboying. I first, this is, I think, I think you know this. I first like found out about you years ago, I think by way of Hammer Rose. (2m 16s): I think I saw you in in a adult film on the internet. That one. Yeah. Yeah. And I was like, he’s hot and fun and interesting And I wanna like, I like checked you out on social media And I was like, oh, you’ve got a podcast. So I was, I subscribed to your podcast and I’ve been following your Instagram and your tweets for like, at least since 2016 if not longer. And so thank you. When we start, when you started following me back and we started talking online, I was like, ah, this is so cool. And then I found out we have, we both independently got booked deals and then found out we have the same editor. And so that’s like been cool that that sort of like serendipitously worked out. And so you’re a podcaster, a disability advocate and educator. (2m 58s): You’re now a published author and like an all around like really like rad person. And so I’m, I’m so glad to have you on this podcast. Thank you so much. So today, like just set the stage for where we’re going. I wanna talk about like your experiences like as a like queer, disabled person and also like in general and also about your like book in particular. So let’s get started. Cool. And ready? Yeah. Let’s do it. Yeah. So can you like, share, one of the ways that we like to start the interview is by asking folks like, imagine that you’re out like a, a fun queer dinner party or a cocktail party. (3m 39s): Like how would, how do you introduce yourself? I would say, hi, my name’s Andrew. I’m a freelance disability consultant And I give talks about sex and disability. I’ve been doing it now for 14 years, which is really weird and a long time. But I’ve been doing it for, yeah, freelance for about 14 years now, which feels like such a long time. But I talk predominantly about sex and disability ’cause no one else does. Yeah, totally. You know, I think that for many folks listening who have like some sort of religious background, like talking about sex in public can be kind of scary. And I, I, you know, we at Queer Theology com talk about it a lot. (4m 20s): And so like can you share what it was like for you to start talking about sex, like in a public way? I was, yeah. I was never afraid of it. I was never scared of it. I’ve always been a very sexually open person. From the time I knew that I was queer at like six years old to going through puberty, I always knew that like, this shouldn’t be a scary thing. But what I probably didn’t, didn’t count for is that people would be afraid of me and my disability because of it. And so I made the choice when I was done school, I went to school for legal studies and law. So I made the choice when I was done school to, I was looking for jobs And I was looking for work And I said, I wanna do disability consulting. (5m 5s): I wanna be a speaker on disability. And everybody went, that’s a nice hobby, that’s not a real job. Hmm. And I kind of went, well fuck you, I’m gonna make it my job. Watch me make it my job. And I made a card up this to print, printed my name on it, said I’m a disability awareness consultant, having no idea what that was. And said I wanted, here’s what I do. And I started contacting HuffPo and the Advocate and, and like men’s health magazines and every, every magazine where a queer person would go. And I said, I wanna write for free, not anymore, but at the time when I was up for free, I wanna write about sex and disability. Do you have anybody that does that? And they were like, no. (5m 45s): And I was like, great, can I be the one that does that for you? And so I just started putting it out there publicly because I wanted to do education, but also I wanted to be honest, I wanted to get laid. I wanted gay men and queer men to notice me. And I was like, if I put my body out there and, and push that I’m a sexual being, maybe finally I’ll get laid or I’ll go on some dates or I’ll meet somebody. Yeah. And so there was a professional reason for it and there was a sexual reason for it. It was like, I want people, I want queer men specifically to know that I’m here too. Yeah. And to get paid while you’re attracting queer men to have sex with you. Yeah. So that’s a double win. And to like, make some money. (6m 26s): ’cause everybody said, oh, it’s a hobby, it’s not a real job. It can be your hobby. And I kept being like, well, I don’t want to be a hobby. It’s, it’s what I wanna do. And so I was really disheartened by the lack of community support. But I also was thankful because there was nobody doing it in my area at the time. I mean, I was in Toronto and I’m still in Toronto because there was nobody at the time doing it. I, I kind of cornered that market locally and said, okay, I’m gonna be the guy. And that led to like, I was on one girl five days for a season, which is a little Canadian pop show. It happened like 10 years ago. (7m 6s): I did a season of that Talking About Sex and Disability. I’ve done porn, I’ve done like tv I’ve done like, because I refused to be like, I’m not going to, I’m not gonna listen to you. I’m gonna do this. Yeah. You sc was my follow-up question, which was gonna be, so you’ve, you’ve talked about like writing. What are some of the other ways that you do disability advocacy and consulting? I have a great podcast called Disability After Dark where I talk, I talk, I used to talk only about sex And I got bored. So now it’s an Everything Disability podcast, but for the first like 200 episodes, it was predominantly sex and disability. So I do that once a week, once, once every other week. (7m 48s): And I do consulting And I do writing And I do tweeting. And I do like so many different things free. The joy of freelance is, it’s very flexible. You can do so many different things in one day for your job. And I love that. And so I do so many different things from talks to tweeting to, to Instagraming, to like doing lives, like doing stuff like this. It’s really, really cool that I can use my voice to talk about sexuality, queerness, and disability and in so many different ways. Yeah. Thank you for all of that. So one of the things, so you’ve got a book coming out or you have a book that is already out Notes From a Queer Cripple. (8m 30s): Yes. I Now I know that the like unsexy story is that like the publisher approached you about it, but like when you were thinking about what this book might be, how did you come up? Like why, why The Book that you ended up writing? Like why that book in that way? Well, that, that was in The Book that I wanted to write initially. I had written a, my spec outline was a lot broader, a lot more like, how do we make the queerness accessible to everyone? And they were like, that’s very nice. Can you hone it into disability and your community? Please can you just talk about your community? And I was like, okay. So I had to pivot and they were like, just tell stories like you would in your tweets and just talk, like those things you talk about in your tweets, make them longer for an essay. (9m 17s): Go. And so, like, that was really daunting for me ’cause I didn’t, I forgot how to write long form. I forgot how to do like, oh, I have to write pages and pages of this to make it make sense. And so like they said, we wanted you to write a love letter to queer, disabled people, but also give queer, non-disabled people a place to land. And so that’s kind of how The Book came to be. And really it’s a collection of seven Chapters of a bunch of stories of my formative years trying to be queer and disabled, trying to access sex, trying to, like trying to go to clubs, trying to go to, trying to make a porn, try like doing all these things but infusing disability in a way that I don’t think we’ve seen before. (10m 1s): And being unashamedly like queer about it. And I am disabling queer. I suck, I do this. I, and it’s very, very direct. And a lot of people who have read it, they love it. But there have been some that have said like, oh, it’s too heavy on the sex work. It’s too heavy on the sex chat. Why? And I think that’s important because so much of disability writing or queer writing doesn’t put the two worlds together of it. It’s very sanitized. Yeah. It was No time to do that. Yeah. One of the things that I, I noticed as I was reading your book was that like, obviously you have had very different experiences for me. (10m 44s): And also I recognized like my myself in many parts of it and sort of like parts of my own queer experiences and that like, there are some like through lines between many of our queer experiences and queer lives that are sort of like resonate across differences or ways in which your like experience with a disability. Like remind me of other experiences like not related to disabilities that I’ve had. Right. And so like, not to, not to universalize a, a particular story, but I feel like this is one of those moments where like disabled justice like helps everyone and like learning from disabled folks can sort of help you see your own self in a new light while also helping you see disability in a, in a new light as well. (11m 30s): Yeah. And I think, you know, I I, that was kinda the point of The Book. I wanted to tell everybody, like, you will become disabled, disability will be a part of your story. You might run into like the hottest disabled person at the club, and then disability becomes better, your story. And like how do you sleep with them? How do you have in with them? How do you get to know them all? All the stuff I talk about in The Book gives a non-disabled queer person, particularly queer men. And that’s kind of who, that’s kind of the community that I was speaking to was really queer men because they have so much ableism to unpack. So I wanted them to see queer, disabled sex is a possibility and how like sexy can be. (12m 13s): Yeah. How has your relationship to sex changed over like the course of your life? Oh, the course of my life. Well, as I share in The Book, my first sexual experience wasn’t super great. The guy, the guy that I was with call me a pity fuck Oh my god. To my face, which was, you know, real fun for me. Fuck Yeah. And so that was really, that was, I was 19 when that happened. It was a really hard thing to experience and things to kind of compartmentalize. And so it’s changed because I started using sex workers about nine years ago And I decided to hire a sex worker to have my needs met. (12m 57s): And it’s given me so much more confidence because I don’t have to wait on, I don’t have to like hope that some guy’s gonna like me. I can hire somebody to have my needs met. It’s turned my sexuality into a much less desire based thing and more of like a therapeutic thing when I see a sex worker, like, yes, there’s desire and there’s playfulness there and all those things, but because my body is has different needs, I treat it like going to see a physio every week or going like, I’ll see my sex worker every three months or something as a part of my therapeutic process. (13m 37s): So like I am, I went from wishing guys would, would write me back wishing guys would date me, wishing guys would like talk to me. And I still feel that way a lot of the time, but now with sex work as an option, I feel like, oh, I can get my knees met this way And I can at least have an orgasm or have intimacy the way that I want without worrying about all the other emotional stuff that comes along with that. Yeah. So before the podcast, before I started recording, I was complimenting the color of your wall, which I can see, but if you’re listening you probably can’t see. It’s, it’s this, this really beautiful bluish ish color. And you shared that like your regular sex worker came over and painted it for you and painted it naked. (14m 20s): And so I, I would imagine like many people listening when they think about sex work or imagining someone coming over and fucking and then leaving, and you’ve used words like therapeutic and also I know that like he also painted your wall for you while naked. And so like, can you talk about like, yes, it’s about sex, like, and also like what else is a part of that experience? Like, And I love that question. Sometimes it’s about intimacy. Sometimes, like he comes over and we watch Bob’s burgers and cuddle and like have a laugh. And sometimes we have sex and sometimes we don’t. And sometimes, like he sleeps over and we just watch a show. Like it’s, it’s so much, yes, there’s a sexual component there. (15m 3s): Of course there is. But we’ve been seeing, he’s my main sex worker. I’ve been seeing him now for almost eight years. So we’re really well attuned to each other. And it’s nice to have somebody that I can be like, I just wanna spend time with you. I don’t necessarily want us to mess around. I wanted to spend time with you. I wanna talk to you. Like sometimes we’ll just text and they’ll be like, Hey, how are you? How’s your day? How are you doing today? How are you feeling today? Like people think it’s this dark, dirty deed that’s happening, but really it’s building connection with somebody. And also, like, I’m aware that a lot of sex workers are students and teachers and, and people with three jobs trying to make it, trying to make ends mean. (15m 48s): So I’m aware that like by me helping him out transactionally, I’m actually supporting another marginalized person. And that’s like, there’s something really, really beautiful about that symbiotic relationship we have together. And I am, so like, when he came over and painted my house, that was right after COVID, not the COVID iss over, but like right after the first, the last big wave. So in 2021, like right after we were allowed to see each other again, and we hadn’t seen each other from March, 2020 to October, 2021. And we, we would have sessions like once every month, honestly. And so we didn’t see each other for like a year and a half and we were both like, we miss each other. (16m 31s): So in that session we talked for an hour about our lives and we like hugged and we tried a little bit and it was, you know, it was a nice like moment to have together. And so for me it’s so much deeper than just I’m gonna have the sexual experience, I’m gonna pay this guy for it, and then that’s it. Part of me, which is I didn’t have to do that. But I know that I, I think it’s the same as like any relationship. They all have. They all have, and we talked about this a minute ago, they all yeah. Have transactions somewhere. So if by me giving him 300 bucks an hour allows him to feed himself and for me to feel sexually fulfilled for an hour, like that’s a really cool thing that I got to do. (17m 16s): Yeah. And Be a part of. Yeah, I mean we, we talk about this on your podcast, but like my, like the line between like a spouse who works and a spouse who doesn’t work versus like a sugar baby, sugar daddy versus like quote unquote sex work. Those are like, those are blurry lines and whether it’s monetary transactions that are happening or like care, like we are all caring for one another. And so I think what, you know, what I I’m hearing from you is like, this should be an option for folks who wanna be able to take advantage of it. I mean, I’m gonna say it quite bluntly, it should be funded by the government, it should be funded by, like in Australia they have a disability support program called the National Disability Insurance Scheme. (18m 3s): And up until a while ago, they were funding sex work. Yeah. They were allowing, they were giving you a stipend every month to hire a worker to have your needs met. Like that is so critically important. Yeah. Yeah. And it’s, again, all we do sometimes is watch TV and have a laugh and yeah, we might get naked and be naked while that’s happening, but it’s not One time we went to the grocery store and he, he helped me buy groceries. Yeah. And we just had a laugh. It’s like, it’s so much more than what people think it is. Yeah. And I wish that they would see that like, these connections are important and when you have severe disabilities like I do, where my body doesn’t look quote unquote normative, when you meet somebody who paid or otherwise wants to spend time with you, you have to like capitalize on that as best you can. (18m 54s): One of the things that I’ve noticed about you over the years is that you’re able to talk really boldly and matter of factly about sex in general, about like your desires and experiences like about your body and your body parts and how they’re hot. And like I know that I’m, I would imagine like many people, people listening to this podcast, many of us have come from like more restrictive backgrounds where like talking about sex was like super taboo or we were like, felt ashamed about our bodies or our sexual desires. And I know that’s pro potentially also like part of your story as well. But like, how did you get to a place where you could just like, so boldly be like, like, this is my sex life. (19m 35s): I’ve got a, like a big dick and it’s really hot and like my body is sexy and like let’s have, like this is who I am. How, like how did you get there? Okay. Know, we’re not supposed to flirt, but every day you see I get a huge giant smile on my face. So just So, just so it makes very aware of that. Thank you. You know, some days I’m there and some days I’m not there. Like it’s, it’s really ebb and flow. Like some days I hate my body. Some days I hate my experience, but I know that if I’m vocal about my sex life and somebody with severe disabilities, somebody else with severe disabilities will listen to that and think, oh, if Andrew can talk about it so openly, maybe I can too. (20m 16s): And so I don’t always do it because I believe it. It’s sort of like a fake until I believe it in myself kind of thing. If I constantly push that I’m the sexiest disabled person you’ll ever meet, which I know is not true. There are way hotter disabled people than me. But like if I push that pretend thing around it, maybe eventually I can believe it too. And then it’ll be true. Yeah. And like did, like, did you just like, like how did you get that idea to do that? Or did like, were you inspired by someone else or did you like read it in a book? Did you like think it up yourself? I’ve always been provocative. I’ve always been somebody who like, who likes to push the boundaries a little bit. And so one time I was doing a magazine shoot for a magazine in Toronto called, now they’re now defunct, I think. (21m 3s): And they were doing like a Love your Body shoot. And so you had to go and be naked. And I went down with my friend to the studio And I got naked and they covered my bits And I did it. And so they, they put, they, they did the magazine, they went all over Toronto and then Global, the, the news called me and said, would you come on a segment? And I was like, okay, sure. So I did. And they were like, oh, why did you do this? And I jokingly said something like, oh, I think I’m deliciously disabled like funny. And I just like made the joke on the air as a joke because I like to be, you know, funny and quick. And then I was like, oh wait, there’s something there that I, And I can play with that And I can make the idea of being disabled really hot and really fun. (21m 47s): And then from that grew, the Disabled people are hot hashtag that I created. And then from that grew like the offer to be on TV. And like, I just was recently, I didn’t get it, but I was asked to audition for like that movie about Judy Human that’s coming out soon. And so all of my stuff has been to be like, you need to look at me, you need to see who I am. And I did it partially as a joke because I didn’t believe anybody would actually care. But then it turned into something. So like I didn’t do it thinking it would actually happen. I did it. Oh, let’s try and see what happens. Yeah. I love that. I’m guys, so every time you say something I have like three questions as a result. (22m 28s): ’cause it’s just so interesting. But so you, you, you mentioned that like at first you didn’t necessarily believe it and it’s like, I’m wondering like how it feels different. And you mentioned that you still don’t always believe it, but like, how does it feel different now than when you say like, I’m really hot or talk about your body or deliciously disabled or whatever it might be now versus like the first time you sort of like tentatively said it out loud. Well, now I know when I say it, people will pay attention to it. And now I know when I talk about it, it will, it will garner a response. Whereas when I first did it, I was like, nobody cares. Like, when I first put out Deliciously Disabled the first time, no one cared. (23m 10s): Like it wasn’t a big thing, but it, that turned into a sex party that I threw four disabled people and like, it, it’s just a ma It was a matter of me just trying stuff and seeing what, and I’m, I love Silly Punt and like, alliteration and like silly stuff. So like on apps like Grinder and Scruff and Sniffy, my name is either bar in a chair or like Big Dick trip or like, you know, super ballsy or like funny stupid stuff to make myself laugh because I think we take disability and that’s part of what Dly Disabled was too. We take disability so fucking seriously and it’s okay if we make fun of ourselves, it’s okay if we play with it a little bit. (23m 56s): And especially when it comes to our bodies and our desires and our, our sexual worth. It needs to be a bit of a game, otherwise it’s so not fun. Not fun. Yeah. And that feels very queer and the ways in which queer people have always used sort of like camp to like subvert things and to like lighten our spirits and keep us going. Yeah, exactly. And I I, I love camp. Like, I was raised on like ab fab And I was raised on like, you know, the bird cage And I was raised on so many, so much queer media that I didn’t realize was queer at the time. That looking back on it, I was like, of course I would go this way. Of course I would be this like flamboyantly queer, queer person. I remember like the very first queer movie that I watched that was like pointedly queer with my mom was was Priscilla Queen of the Desert. (24m 47s): And like I, we watched that the night I came out to her. And so like queerness has been all around me my whole life. And so I I And I love doing big silly gestures And I think disabled queer people deserve big, silly, sexy moments. And so when I do things like do a porn or do a, a show about sex and disability or do a post where I’m half naked and on Instagram or do a post where I’m like kissing and doing in my wheelchair, all that stuff’s important because it deserves a space just like everything everybody else does. Yeah. I think you’re like, I think you’re like a prophet. I think you’re a queer prophet. You’re doing really important work. (25m 27s): Wow. Wow. That that’s, that feels very nice but also very big. Wow. Yeah, I mean like, like in the, in the Jewish Bible, like with the, the prophets almost like they’re, they’re these, one of the things they do right is they like, they do these big gestures that are like meaningful in and of themselves, but also sort of like call attention to a larger issue. And so I think like what, what you do when you like post sexy pictures of yourself, it’s like both like you being sexy in and of yourself like, and also as like part of a larger thing that’s happening. And I know that you’re like inspiring and lots of other folks on the internet to, to see themselves in sexy ways or to see people who aren’t like them in, in other, in new sexy ways. (26m 9s): Yeah. Like, you know, And I, I, I hope that I can use my privilege as, as a white disabled person for somebody of color with disabilities to be like, I wanna do the same thing. I want to show that I ha that I deserve to be sexy too. And so I try to, I try to remember my privilege all the time and remember that in doing the work that I do, yeah, it’s fun and flirty and whatever, but it’s also, there’s such a bigger meaning behind it. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Can you talk a little bit about deliciously Disabled at the party and like what it was like to it plan this party and like what it was like to be at it? Yeah. The person And I that threw it, we had a falling out so I won’t speak to her part ’cause we don’t talk anymore. (26m 53s): Sure, sure, sure. And the, the shady is real. And there are many things I could say that I won’t because I’m a good podcaster And I know I’m not a great jam, but I also kind of wanted to, so there I sort of did. Yeah. But that was really fun to do that. We did it 10 years ago. We did it at a theater here in Toronto called Buddies in Bad Times Theater, which is like an iconic Toronto theater space. ’cause we couldn’t find a sex club that was accessible. So we needed to use a theater space. So they, they let us, and then we were just gonna do a play party, a simple play party that that honored disabled folks. (27m 33s): And that was all supposed to be. And then somebody did a press thing and they called it a disabled orgy. And I was like, oh, I don’t love that. But like that, that ran like wildfire. And then yeah. People from Howard Stern to the BBC were calling us to be like, can we come and film? And we were like, no, this is not, it’s not a joke to us. Like yeah, this is the real thing. And so we sold out, we had people on the night, we had people from around the block trying to get in that we had to say no to. Wow. And so, like, there were probably, I can’t remember exactly ’cause it was 10 years ago, but there were probably like 150 people there, which in that, in that space feels like a lot of people. (28m 17s): And it was packed. And I didn’t actually have sex that night, like a lot of people didn’t have sex. But it was a place to explore desire, explore sexuality, explore sensuality. And it was the first with kind. And I know there have been sexy ish play parties around that, but still there are not enough parties that uplift disability access and sexuality. And that’s what we wanted it to be. And that’s what it was like, we really tried to be like, oh, disabled. We had beds for if disabled people wanted to have sex, there were options. We had like lifts. We had things ready to go in case we wanted to have sex. And what I love about that party, we did that 10 years ago And I haven’t done it since. (28m 60s): But that party was the, the reason why in the new queers folk season that died, RIP they had a party disabled people fuck party that was based on the party that I threw. Oh, that’s so cool. So like, I am forever. And I remember going to the pretend party and seeing like a bunch of disabled folks and Hoyer lifts and like all the things that we had at my party. And it was so awesome that like this thing that I created that I never thought anyone would care about Yeah. Is now immortalized on a like iconic queer television show. Yeah. That’s incredible. (29m 39s): And I think that what you said just a moment ago where like this thing that I thought nobody would care about, like, and then there was 150 people. There was a line around the block that I think that that sometimes the, the we, we can feel so alone or like we’re the only one who wants this or who is this way and then, or that is a silly idea. And then just like, we’re not alone. And there’s like so much like potential impossibility out there if you’re willing to put yourself out there and take like, take some big risks. Oh yeah. And I, and almost every time I do a talk, somebody will say to me, Hey, would you ever do another one? Like what would you? And I, I always say like, well are you gonna pay me because Yeah, yeah, yeah. (30m 22s): We like, we didn’t get paid the first time and it was a lot of work and like I would do it again if you paid me real money. Yeah. And, and you guys dealt with all the logistics and then I got to just be the host. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. But like the reality of that and the backlash we got from queer people who said it was a bad idea. Artistic people. Artistic people who said How dare we use a theater space to have sex. Which is ironic because a lot of theater is Yeah. Very sexual. Yeah. Disabled people who told me that how dare I the party is a bad idea. Don’t do it. Like the backlash that we got from all sides of people. Yeah. We didn’t understand what we were really saying was disabled sexuality has value. (31m 6s): Let’s showcase that. Yeah. It’s all we were saying, it’s all the party really was like, I didn’t know sex in, i, I didn’t fuck around. I wa I wanted to a lot, but I was busy running around saying, oh my God, hi, thank you for being here. Oh my God. But like, it was just running Into sex party takes a lot of hard, practical, boring work science. So much work. And I am a bad hostess man. I did not want by like the 10th person, I was like, I don’t wanna say hi anymore. Like hop fun, bye. Like I wanted to fuck. And I didn’t get to do that ’cause I was working. But like the whole point of the party was people, disabled people deserve spaces to be obtusely sexual. (31m 47s): Yeah. Overtly sexual. To be slutty, to be dirty. Yeah. To be quote unquote inappropriate. We deserve spaces to do that. And the media backlash from all sides reminded me that we’re not quite ready to talk about sex and disability yet. Which is why I think my book also kind of rubs some people the wrong way. They’re not ready for how sexual it is. People have critiqued that they’re not ready for my discussions of sex work. People have critiqued that. My newest favorite critique is there’s a section in The Book where I talk about asking my care worker to help me set up a sex toy and like to help me use a sex toy. (32m 30s): And she did. And there’s a critique that I’m exploiting her. And I was like, well this, this, like of course I asked, I asked her if it was all right, of course. Like I checked before I did anything. Like this idea that disabled people can’t be sexual and have no, should not be allowed any avenue to ask for help to be sexual is really a problem. And so that’s why my book is so loud and so in your face and doesn’t hold back from the telling the truth. And I think people were afraid of that. I had somebody who critiqued it who also said like, oh, well if they’re not binary ’cause I use they, that they, and he pronouns, if they’re not binary, why are they only talking about men? (33m 13s): And I was like, because it’s my story and men are who I choose to sleep with. Like Yeah. And your gender is different than who you wanna have sex with also. Yeah, exactly. So I just, I find some of the critiques really narrow-minded because it shows that we have a lot of work to do. And it reminds me, And I’m thankful for the critiques, it reminds me that I’ll never behalf of a job, I’ll never not be working Yeah. To push these narratives and to push sex and disability positivity. And you know, I, but I’ve had also great reviews where people said, like The Book woke me up to things I didn’t see before The Book opened Something in me that I didn’t notice before. (33m 56s): Like really powerful reviews too. And it’s hard when you and you know, from also writing Yeah. Writing stuff. Like when you put something that is so personal to you out in the public sphere, it can be really hard. Yeah. I mean like, I I, that’s one of the things that I love about The Book. I mean, listeners will not be surprised that I love that book That’s very boldly sex, like sex word or sex positive. But like, it’s just like so, so needed and like such an antidote to like the shame and secrecy that so many of us has been like going indoctrinated to Yeah. To believe it is like that we should carry, carry around with us And well, you know, one of my favorite parts of The Book is, is you know, just talking about sex work in The Book, talking about like, my experience with my sex worker talking about the porn I did. (34m 49s): Like, it’s so bold. And I remember when I did my book launch a couple weeks ago, by the time this comes out, I don’t know how many weeks it’ll be, but I did it about a month ago. I did a book launch for The Book and my college prof my favorite pro, I invited her to say a few words ’cause she inspired me not to write The Book, but she inspired me in the work that I do And I just adore her. So she came and she’s like a, she’s like a really cool hip, like just one of my favorite profs in the whole world. And she came on the Zoom and talked about how great it was. And I like teared up and to know that my like 60 something was reading a book about me very explicitly talking about like, yeah, sex made me so happy. (35m 35s): ’cause I was like, see everybody, it’s fine. We’re all, it’s good. Everybody can understand this. Yeah. I, I think that that’s a reminder that like there are like allies in unexpected places and that like, sometimes the people like, just like not make assumptions because like sometimes it’s the people that we think like should be on board or not. Like I know I’ve also gotten critiques of my work, like when I talk about sex positivity or a polyamorous spirituality and like sometimes like from queer people or queer young people. And then there’ll be like a straight cis like 65-year-old rabbi is like, this is inspired, you have to keep doing this work. Right. Or like a priest like gets it and I’m like, yeah. Like there’s like, there’s some ageism and thinking like, oh, only young people. (36m 19s): Like the young people are sex positive and the old people aren’t sex positive that like, oh yeah. There’s a ton of ableism that way. It’s, It’s all old people can be awesome and young people can be terrible. Yeah. It that’s really true. And and the same with disabled folks. Like we think that all disabled folks are these ubic angelic beautiful souls that are so innocent, blah, blah, blah, blah. But dude, there are some really shitty disabled people out there. Yeah. Like sometimes like you’re just a shitty person. It’s not because you’re disabled, because you’re queer, because you’re, you’re a woman. It’s just like some people are shitty. You’re a shitty person and like I’ll conduit sometimes I can also be a shitty person. Sure, sure, sure. We all can do that. And so I think this idea that one of my favorite critiques that I’ve gotten so far is the latest one that I got on my neck alley again. (37m 7s): ’cause I I shouldn’t read my critiques. Thank you. So the latest one that I got was they said, no, no, no, I don’t like that he exploits care workers. I don’t like that he pays for sex. And then they said sometimes the writing felt immature. And I kind of laughed at that because I was like, why does everything, why does everything we write about disability have to be steeped in seriousness and like intensity? Why can’t somebody with a disability write a little immature thing? Why, why? Yeah. And it’d be lighthearted. Yeah. Yeah. I wouldn’t say it’s immature. It does not strike me as an immature book. Like there are many parts that are lighthearted, but it’s like so much mature content you’re talking about just in a lighthearted, very approachable, accessible way. (37m 54s): Really smart choice. Yeah. I wanted to write back to her and be like, well actually I, back to what you said I wanted write back and be like, well actually it’s just that, you know, accessible. But then I was like, okay, you’re gonna have your opinion no matter what. There’s something I can do. And that’s hard for me because like, I want all my stuff to be loved by everyone. And I’m quickly realizing that’s not true. Yeah. There’s this, there’s this quote from Jesus in one of the, the gospels where he’s like sending out his followers to go like, preach the gospel. And he’s like, if you get to a city or a town or a house and they like won’t listen to you, just leave and like dust the dust, the shake the dust offal to, to try and like convince them of your goodness or the rightness of this message. (38m 39s): And I think that’s like a message for, but, but Shannon And I here are constantly harping on and it’s like, I think for you also it’s like it’s, it’s just kinda like not land with some people and those aren’t the people that you’re gonna be talking to. But I know that your work really lands and transformative for so many people. Well that feels so nice to hear. ’cause you know, you know, and I’m sure you understand this, we work in a vacuum. Yeah. We do a lot of the, we do a lot of the stuff. We do solo, we do a lot of it by ourselves. We do a lot of it for nobody but ourselves. And so when somebody says like, oh, it something you did meant something to me, it’s like, oh wow. That’s so nice. Thank you. Okay, great. Wow. Wow. Yeah. And like, you know, you asked earlier how I got, how I got talking about sex. (39m 23s): I wanna change the question a little bit. Like Yeah. Because of comments like that, there have been so many moments where I’ve been like, oh, I should just give it up and get a real job, or I should just give it up and not do this anymore. And then I get comments like that and I’m like, okay, there’s another reason why I gotta keep going. I just have to remember this and it’ll be fine. Yeah. One of the things I talk about in my book I see like a real synergy here is like hospitality being like a core sacred obligation across traditions and the ways in which like queer people and non-monogamous, like slutty sex is a practice of hospitality, of welcoming a stranger into your house, into your bedroom, into your body. (40m 4s): And there’s a lot of like trust and care there. And I think what happens on like an individual, like on any given like individual hookup or experience, but also I’m like thinking about it with like deliciously disabled, like what an incredible model of hospitality and inclusion and belonging. And it’s like a vision of like the kingdom of God. Like the way that the world could be where sort of it’s sort of like come and like bring your whole self and your bodies and have like your needs met and your desires seen and maybe you’ll have sex or maybe you won’t. Or maybe let’s complicate what it even means to have sex and be in a sexual space. And it doesn’t necessarily have to be fucking in a particular way, but it can all, it can be, it can be blurry and sensual and sexy and that there’s like some power in in coming together and that like that like I, I dunno, And I what you just said, there’s, there’s a ton of power in coming together. (40m 59s): Yeah. Yes. Oh my god. Yeah. There’s a ton of power in coming together and you know, we, we are so I am still 10 years later so fucking proud of that party. I’m so proud of what, what we did, even though I didn’t get to have sex the night at all And I was so fucking tired and so busy and so exhausted from the whole thing. But it set the world of blaze because it remind like fucking Howard Stern wanted to come and film it and the BBC wanted to come and film it and like yeah, they wanted to make a mockery of it. But it started a conversation that disabled people before me have been talking about and after me, long after me. We’ll talk about, Yeah. (41m 40s): Of like Disabled people. Fuck. And we want intimacy and it shouldn’t be, why are we only allowed to talk about accessibility when it’s about ramps and elevators and buttons? Why can’t I talk about access to like the hot guy that I wanna fuck or the bedroom or the shower room or the dark room that I wanna be. Yeah. Why is access not relegated to those places too? Putting together a sex toy that works for you. Like all those things. Yeah, yeah. Like I created a sex toy. RIP to that too. It’s no longer a thing, But we, you know, tried to get that going and like I’ve done so much to, to continue the conversation that will happen long after I’m gone. (42m 21s): And I hope that in the brief blips that I’ve had here, it’s made an impact. Yeah. Well I think so. So your book is called Notes From a Queer Cripple. Folks can get it anywhere. Books are sold, right? Anywhere. Anywhere. Books are sold if you wanna go And a book Yeah. Go Ahead to Amazon or you know, Barnes and Noble. Yeah. Basically anywhere books are sold. The digital and physical copy right now I have no idea if they’re gonna do an audiobook. I’ve been asked multiple times I the answer, I dunno, how does even work? Yeah. Audible, if you’re listening, I’m right here. I’ll do one. Just call me. Yeah. And so like what’s like one thing that you hope readers take away from your book? (43m 2s): I hope they take away that sexuality and disability is way more nuanced than I think they realized. It isn’t just about getting that guy in the wheelchair off. It isn’t just about getting that guy in the wheelchair laid. It’s about how you see your body. It’s about how you see your sensuality and it, I hope people that are disabled take away that they see a part of themselves in there. And I hope that people who are not disabled take away that they have a lot of work to do. Awesome. Thank you so much. And where can folks, if they wanna keep in touch, whether you or follow along or support your work, how can folks do that? Yeah, I’m most active on Instagram. They can go to Andrew Gza on Instagram. They can go to Andrew Gza on Blue Sky. (43m 43s): I did have an ex account, but I killed it because don’t wanna support the fascist regimes that we’re dealing with right now. So just Instagram and Blue Sky. They can go to andrew gza.com to book me for talks, book signings, readings and all those great things as well. Awesome. Thank you guys for Being here One more time. Sorry. They can listen to my podcast, disability After Dark, wherever you get podcasts every other Sunday. I love it. I’m a subscriber to that. So thank you again so much for being here, Andrew. Thank you for having me. It was such a pleasure. The Queer Theology podcast is just one of many things that we do at Queer Theology dot com, which provides resources, community, and inspiration for L-G-B-T-Q Christians and straight cisgender supporters. (44m 25s): To dive into more of the action, visit us at Queer Theology dot com. You can also connect with us online on Facebook, Twitter, Tumblr, and Instagram. We’ll see you next week. The post The Journey of a Queer Disabled Advocate with Andrew Gurza appeared first on Queer Theology.

We’ve hit another milestone on the podcast – 600 episodes!! That’s 600 weeks of looking at the Bible, faith, God (and a lot of other things!) through the lens of queer theology. We’ve grown. The community has grown. The world has changed. And all that will continue. But what will still remain, is that there is so much richness to be discovered in scripture. In this reflective episode, we celebrate 600 episodes and discuss the evolution of our faith, the power of sacred texts, and the changing landscape of queer and trans Christian spaces. We explore personal growth through spiritual practices, the moral challenges of today’s society, and the relevance of queer theology in a world that continues to grapple with issues of faith and identity. Under it all, the continuing thread we find is the importance of community and the ongoing journey of understanding our own spirituality.   Takeaways The podcast has been running for 12 years, reflecting on faith and spirituality. Polypossibilities cohort explores the intersections of polyamory and spirituality. The power of sacred texts continues to resonate in new ways. Queer and trans Christian spaces are evolving, facing both progress and regression. Personal growth is deeply tied to spiritual practices and community engagement. Moral moments in society call for reflection and action. The relevance of their work highlights both positive and negative aspects of faith today. Surprises from the journey include a deeper engagement with traditional practices. The importance of community in exploring spirituality and identity. Looking ahead, the hosts are excited for future episodes and continued exploration.   Chapters (01:21) Reflecting on 12 Years of Podcasting (02:11) The Evolution of Faith and Spirituality (04:55) The Power of Sacred Texts (08:00) Navigating Queer and Trans Christian Spaces (11:04) Personal Growth Through Spiritual Practices (14:54) Moral Moments in Today’s Society (18:11) Surprises from 600 Episodes (23:25) Looking Ahead to Future Episodes   Resources:.  Register for Poly Possibilities at queertheology.com/poly-possibilities  Join our online community at  Sanctuary Collective Community  If you want to support the Patreon and help keep the podcast up and running, you can learn more and pledge your support at patreon.com/queertheology   This transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors or omissions. (9s): Welcome to the Queer Theology Podcast. I’m Brian G Murphy. And I’m father Shannon, T l Kearns. We’re the co-founders of Queer Theology dot com and your hosts from Genesis, revelation. The Bible declares good news to LGBTQ plus people, and we want to show you how Tune in each week on Sunday for conversations about Christianity, queerness and transness, and how they can enrich one another. We’re glad you’re here. Hello? Hello. Hello. Before we dive into this episode, which spoiler alert is our 600th episode, which is just mind blowing to me. You can’t see Shea, but he’s shaking his head in disbelief. Just a quick reminder that we are running a three week poly possibilities cohort that starts next week. (52s): It starts on Tuesday, July 29th, three Tuesday evenings Eastern time, Wednesday mornings, Australia, Japan time, and various time zones. Depending on where in the world you are, it’s gonna be looking at the intersections of obviously polyamory and spirituality and really with an eye towards what a polyamorous perspective, how that can enrich all of our types of relationships as well as our spiritual and faith lives. And so this is great for you, certainly if you’re a polyamorous or non-monogamous person of faith, but also, even if you are not polyamorous or not open in an open relationship of some sort, but you just wanna learn from the wisdom of polyamory, we would love to have you, you can learn more and register at Queer Theology dot com slash poly possibilities. (1m 35s): There are sliding scales, and if you can’t or you don’t wanna join the calls live, there’s always the option to watch the replays. I would say like about half the folks do it that way. Anyways, so you’d be in good company, whether you join live or watch the replays. If you have any questions, shoot us an email, connect ology com or send us a DM on Instagram. And with that said, let’s dive into this episode. This Episode, 600 episodes. I can’t believe it. We’ve been doing this podcast pretty much every week for 12 years, 13 years. I don’t, I’m not quite sure what the Math is. Yeah, I think 12 years. Yeah. That is wild. It is wild. And so today we just wanted to reflect a little bit on, you know, over the 12 years, obviously we spent the first six or seven years of that queering a bible passage every, every, actually longer, longer than six or seven years, maybe the first nine years. (2m 31s): Yeah. Because I feel like we did the lectionary in total three times anyway, you know, queering a bible passage. And then we’ve talked about all sorts of other things impacting the lives of queer and trans people of faith. And I wanted to talk a little bit today about, you know, what has stayed the same over those 12 years? What has changed? Obviously both of us have been through a lot of life and a lot of, Oh my god, So many locations. We’ve moved quite a bit in those 12 years. You, you converted. We’ve done, we’ve done lots of things over the 12 Years. (3m 12s): Yeah, you were celibate, now You’re married, you started. Yeah. So lots, lots of lots of differences. So I’m, I’m curious for you, Brian, as you think about like the last 12 years and particularly this podcast, what are some of the first things that come up for you, maybe as, as just general reflections, things that that stand out. Yeah, I mean, I think that I still really love the Bible, which is, I don’t know, wild, like maybe like, I don’t know, not fashionable in progressive circles anymore, but I think there’s like something really cool there about sacred texts and wrestling with them and wrestling them with them together with you, Shannon, on this podcast with the listeners of this podcast in the emails that they send us or in the discussion threads inside of our Sanctuary Collective Community to sort of like, have these conversations together with people. (4m 1s): Or like when we do the type of work in person at speaking events at churches or synagogues or, or conferences, colleges, that there’s like something about not just like reading the Bible and isolation, but like reading it together with other people that feels like really juicy and interesting. And I am just like, never, like, I’ve never been more convinced, like my con my conviction only grows that queerness is already holy and that the world is in desperate need of like the queer gospel, the queer good news. And that like, that there’s like something about whether or not you s stay religious or a particular version of, of faith that like, there’s like something really powerful about saying like, how I do life as holy. (4m 49s): And then also like making sure that like, but like bringing sort of a greater attention and intentionality to how you do life together, just like really adds like a richness to life. Life. And I dunno, I was t in my twenties when we started this And I just turned 40. So it’s like weird that this is not spinning the decades and lots of love and loss along the years. And that like, there’s like, something about sa like having spiritual tools is not just like, I don’t know, forgetting into heaven. Like who the fuck cares. Like, I don’t mean lots of people really care a lot, obviously that’s like not a question that these days like captivates me anymore, but I think that like, it’s not just fairy tales and make believe that like, I, I’ve now like seen the real power of having both practices and communities to lean on when times are really good and when times are really bad. (5m 42s): And I want everyone to have that sort of well to draw upon. So there’s just some initial reflections. What about you, Shea? Yeah, yeah. You know, I, I think one of the things that comes up for me and, And I know that I’ve said this before is that there have been so many times when we, especially when we were queer in the lectionary every week, where I would, you know, read the text and be like, I, there is nothing new to say about this particular passage. Like, we’ve looked at it, I like, I’ve looked at it a million times over the course of my life and now I’ve looked at it a million times over the course of this podcast. And almost inevitably there we would figure out something new to say, right? (6m 26s): Or something that was still resonating or something that was resonating in a new way because of what was going on in the world. And I think that like, that is both the power of a practice that you return to over and over again, that it like continues to find new ways to be meaningful. I I think that’s also the power of returning to these stories over and over again, that you find new ways to, to engage with them because you have changed, The world has changed. But I think that’s also like the power of a sacred text, right? Is that it continues, it finds ways to continue to speak even in a very different world and society and culture. (7m 14s): And I think that that’s like something that’s really special and powerful, so that, that resonates for me. And I, And I’ve been noticing even in myself lately, e even though we’re, we’re doing less with, with querying the Bible on the podcast, like we still obviously engage in that in our work. And I’m still like finding ways to be sub surprised by these stories and yeah. To be changed by these stories. And I think that that’s like a, a really special and powerful thing. And, and, and I’m grateful for that. I, I also feel like, you know, I’ve, I’ve studied the bible my entire life and went to seminary, like have done all the things and also like I’m still deepening my understanding of these texts and that like, that’s both in a academic way, but it’s also in a, a personal spiritual practice way. (8m 6s): And that’s been, that’s been really special too. I I also feel like it’s been interesting to watch the queer and trans Christian space change slash not change slash regress over over the last 12 years. And I think that that’s a really, we’re in a really interesting time, right? I think that there, when we started this podcast, no one was really talking about deconstruction or the, that word had kind of like just entered the lexicon. (8m 47s): Yeah. And, and, but lots of people were kind of in that space of trying to figure out what Christianity could look like. And we like made a ton of progress as like a queer, trans Religious Group. Like there was just so much progress being made. And then I think it feels like then there was like another wave of massive deconstruction and that really impacted like the, the progress that we were making. And, And I’ve seen, I’ve seen a bit of, of regression in the organizing in queer and trans religious spaces in particular. (9m 28s): And that’s like both sad to see and frustrating. And also because I’ve seen it change before. I believe that it can change again. And so like that’s kind of this space I’m finding myself in of like, how might I be able to be involved in the change moving forward. Yeah. I, you know, when you were talking about being like going to seminary, it reminds me that when we started this podcast, you had your, had had completed seminary. I think you had like shortly before we started become a deacon, or maybe shortly after, like right around the time. And then of course like not too long after that we’re like ordained. And so like, when we started, it was very much like, you are the seminarian, you’re the Bible expert. (10m 11s): I am the like, lay person that has nothing that does not like, I like, that’s, I like studied religion in undergrad a little bit, but like I minored in it. I didn’t like even have a bachelor’s in it, right. And like that was like a bit of a dichotomy and that like two things have I’ve noticed been like really powerful for me. And that is that like bringing myself to scripture and to tradition has like opened my eyes to how I understand like my faith. And that like bringing those to myself has like enriched the way that I understand myself and my body and my desires and my sex life and my romantic relationships and my friendships and life and death and all of the things. (10m 57s): And also I think that part of what has like enabled me to do that is by like, learning from you and your sort of like seminary wisdom and also along the way, like reading a lot of books and watching a lot of movies and listening to other podcasts of people who like more learned it than me on like how to read the Bible and what the Bible means and how various communities have engaged with like the Bible in particular and sacred your texts in general. And that there’s a little bit of like, like tending to the soil and then you like sewing the soil and like, you kinda like reap, you reap a little way down the line. But I think like I am able to in the moment sometimes, like I, I had this tweet go like that people really liked about seeing like the Holy Spirit on the dance, a gay club. (11m 49s): And I feel like I was like able to spot that and articulate that because for the past like six years I had been reading the bible every week with you and like read a bunch of books about it and was like thinking about it and, and journaling about it. And so there, there also is sometimes like when I’m like reading a book or reading the Bible, I’m like, sometimes it feels like really inspiring and engaging and exciting and sometimes it’s just sort of like, oh, okay, like this is like neat I guess. But it’s like later when I’m like outliving my life that I’m like, oh, like this is what it was talking about. Or like, oh, I like see this new connection. And I think that like, what has like struck me is I, for the most part I have like, now that I’m like Jewish, actually I have like some religious Jewish friends, but like before my conversion, like basically none of my friends were religious. (12m 40s): And even still most of even my Jewish friends are not particularly religious. So I mostly around non Christians or like, hey, like the, so like Christmas and Easter Christians are like culturally Christian, but like not, people would not describe themselves as religious. And like whenever my work comes up and like either like the podcast or books at first I’m like, oh, I work at the intersections of like queerness and and spirituality. And they’ll be like, oh, that’s like probably really like needed. But it like, seems like it’s like not for them. And then if they ask a follow-up question And I get to sort of like give an example and I’ll sort of like draw upon like something that I know will be relevant to them, they’re like, oh, that’s like really meaningful. Or like, oh, I’ve like never thought about the ways in which like sex can be sacred or like, oh yeah, like you’re right. (13m 21s): Like there is something like really beautiful about queer friendship And I think that like, I don’t really care if you’re a Christian. What I, I mean I know some people do, but like, I don’t really care if you’re a Christian, but what I care about is that like you have some sort of like connection to the divine and the transcendent. And I actually do think that like Christianity, if you were like a raised Christian or Judaism and you were raised Jewish or whatever, like, or you wanna convert like, I think like there these like ancient pathways like do offer like some meaningful inroads and like where you go from there and how you follow that is sort of like up to you. But like, I don’t know, they’ve been around for a couple millennia because I think that there’s like some, some like wisdom and some like useful tools in there. (14m 5s): And so like that is why I continue to engage in this work. And who knows if we’ll be here for episode 1200, but like I think that there’s like some real there, there when it comes to this type of work, whether you want to sort of just heal from Christianity and your spiritual or baggage and move on, or whether you want to like become an active Christian again or whether you just wanna sort of like find God on on the dance floor like this, it, it just all feels like interconnected for me. Yeah. And I, I feel like those tools that you’re talking about, you know, I’m, I’m seeing a lot of folks in, in this current political moment that we’re in, especially in the United States, it really having this sense of, of like, well two things. (14m 48s): One, they’re seeing how Christianity is being used in order to do a lot of harm to people. But two, on the flip side, I I think that there’s a lot of people who are sitting in this space of like, I feel like I should do something, but I don’t know what that something is. And I, I feel like, you know, these practices that, that we’re both talking about, like really help in those moments to help you figure out both how to settle yourself enough that so that you can look at and figure out where you fit in and, and where you can be useful and helpful, but also like help us to know that these patterns of history, you know, ha have their patterns, we call them patterns for a reason they keep coming back. (15m 43s): And so like figuring out how, how our faith and our spiritual practices speak in this particular moment is I, I think is also something that I think a lot of people are hungry for, but maybe aren’t necessarily knowing how to tap into and, and connect with. And that feels like an important, important thing to be engaging with these days. Yeah. I’m reading a book about the prophets and like, oh my god, talk about palsa, all this has happened before all this will happen again. It’s like, oh, like you’re like mistreating women. Oh, you like, don’t take, take care of the poor needy, like, oh, you’re like abusing immigrants. (16m 24s): Oh, like people don’t have enough to eat. It’s like, fuck man. Like 2000 years ago they were like wailing about this and like, here we are 2000 years later still dealing with this. And so like in, in some ways that’s like quite depressing that like humanity has not like, I dunno, gotten to a better place. And also there’s like something about this moment and all moments that like, I, I think that even people who like are no longer the type of Christian that we used to be, and maybe in some ways are like, have been like burned by like that sort of language. I think like if you look around at the world and you’re like, things are like not right, this is like not right. (17m 8s): Like that is a like moral judgment that you are making and that’s okay. It’s that maybe like a good thing to make moral judgments about some things. And I think that I’m like interested as we like look at this moment and the moments that come after it. Like I don’t, I don’t know, like I’m not trying to start a cult, right? But like, but I do think that that like, this is a moral moment that we’re facing and there’s like some really powerful worldviews that are clashing with one another at like the way that not just the United States of America should be, but if this is happening across, across, across the globe, right? (17m 48s): That we’re seeing, like seeing what are our values and how, what’s like the vision for how we structure society and like I, it’s up to us, right? Like the people who are working to make the world in what is in my view a worse place, they’re like working, they spend, they spend their days and nights thinking about this. And so I feel as I’ve been reading this book about the prophets, like it’s one thing to like intellectually know, like I support abortion access, like I support queer rights, like I support like trans medical access, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Like, and sometimes I like write my Congress people and like I protest And I, you know, talk to my neighbors, whatever it might be. But like there’s, there’s something about this sort of like life or deafness, Jeremiah, there’s like a fire burning in my bones that like, is like burning to escape that like this is like, this is a moment and it’s like, I don’t know, I just, I feel like there’s like, there’s like something about, about having both the tools and the inspiration and the motivation and the community and the history to draw upon and the sort of like, I don’t know, like I wanna like just be like, I’m just like fired up. (18m 55s): And that I think that like, it’s not okay to just sort of like sit back and we come from queer people and Christians and Jews, like we come from traditions that have like seen a world as it should, as like on fire instead of like, we can fix this. And so like I am, I dunno, just like, I just want us to all be part of that solution. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that there is something too in that our say traditions and practices help us a to practice for the world as, as we want to inhabit it, but also help us, I think in, in the example of the prophets to really like pinpoint what are the ways of protest of action, of intervention that are actually useful and helpful and what our, you know, just show. (19m 49s): I, I think that there’s, there’s, there’s some real wisdom in these ancient texts of saying, yeah, like, you might need to, to leave your house and go do some street performance art like Isaiah and Jeremiah in order to call attention to, to these yeah. Moments that we’re living in. And like, and that’s, there’s a, there’s a real beauty and power in engaging, engaging with that work in the public square. Yeah. So as we’ve been doing this for the past 600 episodes, what has been something that has like most surprised you? (20m 33s): Hmm. I mean I, I’m really surprised that we’re still going, I dunno if that is the most surprise, but, you know, we have both started other things in the intervening years and have shut other things down. And so I think that like both the consistency of this work over the past 600 episodes, but also the relevance of this work, And I think in relevance in both like really positive ways and also like, ugh, I wish we weren’t still relevant kind of ways is is both. Yeah, both legit. But, but yeah, you know, I I think that that’s, that’s been a really powerful thing And I, And I think it, what it, what it calls me do is to continue to be engaged and to be thinking about how can I be engaged in a way that is that uplifts the, the broader community and that continues to find new things and helpful things and useful things to say even, you know, for the next 600 episodes. (21m 47s): What about you? Yeah, you know, this, this is like probably not surprising to anyone else, but like a few, like a year or so ago, I said to my partner, I was like, you know, it’s like really interesting over the past few years I’ve like really started to become like religious. And he looked at me and he was like, are you serious right now? Like, whatcha talking about you’ve been religious like the entire time that I’ve known you? And it was like, it was genuinely shocking to me. I was like, no, no, no. And I, And I think that like, what I, what I meant by that was I think that I had in my mind like engaged with religion and as much as I like, have known intellectually that like my activism and my religion are very much like intertwined, I think that I would’ve said like, oh, well, yeah, I’m like kind of religious, but like in the blow jobs or blessing sort of way and in the like drag brunches worship sort of way, not in the like go to church every week. (22m 59s): And he was like, yeah, sure, that’s like how you live out your life. But also at like various points you’ve like prayed the daily office like every morning and every evening, like with other people and by yourself. You like observed like lent by going to a church at lunchtime and like reading the psalms and the prophets every day. You like fairly regularly like read your Bible, you like get up in the morning and you like read sometimes poetry, but sometimes the Psalms like, now you’re Jewish and you do like the daily liturgy. And I was like, oh, you are right. That I think that I, so I think like what has been surprising to me is like I, I very much feel like I don’t want to try to convince anyone else that like they have to be religious in any sort of like quote unquote traditional way. (23m 49s): And so I think that when I’m talking to people, especially in my day-to-day life, like outside of my work here, I think I like really emphasize like that empha that that angle of it, of like, but it’s okay if you don’t go to church. Like it’s okay if you don’t read the Bible. And there’s like lots of different ways to be like spiritual, spiritual or religious. And I think that like what was, I guess like surprising to me is that that is true and also that like co like that exists alongside of like, like there’s like power in praying the rosary where there’s power in praising like praying like davening the sea door and then like, yeah, like there’s like something about knitting, but, and there’s also something about having a prayer shawl and that like, you can be deeply religious and also super queer. (24m 35s): And it reminds me that like at the reception or the, not the reception, like the party part, the dance party part, at my wedding, one of our friends came up to, to, to me it was actually more, more to Peter’s friend. And he was like, that Brian, that was like so special. He was like, you had like a reli like a deeply religious ceremony at like the end of your, you had this like queer capric super non-traditional people told stories about Grindr and hookups and like, like Peter, Peter being in his underwear. And then you had this like deeply religious like ritual and like, now we’re having this like queer dance party and like you’re making out with all of your friends on the dance floor and like that all of that co can coexist together really special. (25m 20s): And I actually think that like, part of the reason I can be so like, yeah man, polyamory is awesome. Like being slutty is like divine is because I’ve like tapped into these like, traditional practices. And so I think, like I am, it’s surprising I guess is that I’m like much more, I like much more traditionally religious now than when we started this work. Even as I think like my theology is probably even more sort of like radical than it was before. I think when we started I was like, maybe there’s a God, maybe there’s, And I got, I wanna go to heaven one day. And so I think I probably have in some ways like a more non-traditional theology, but more traditional practices and, and language. (26m 7s): And I think that all kind of feels interconnected in some way. Well, we are looking forward to however many next episodes of this podcast. There are the next 500, 600,000. We, we shall see where the winds take us. Before we go, just a reminder that the Poly Possibilities cohort is starting up soon, so you can get all of the information by going to Queer Theology dot com slash poly possibilities three week cohort. One of the things that I love about this cohort every year is just seeing the community come together, who, many of them who it feels like at the start feel like they’re the only ones in their world who are interested in these intersections and find not only like a whole community of people who are also having these questions, but really see how their insights into relationships can be beneficial and meaningful to, to everyone poly, both poly and non-poly folks. (27m 10s): And so make sure that you get on board with that. Again, Queer Theology dot com slash poly possibilities. We would love to have you in the cohort this year. The Queer Theology podcast is just one of many things that we do at Queer Theology dot com, which provides resources, community, and inspiration for L-G-B-T-Q Christians and straight cisgender supporters. To dive into more of the action, visit us at Queer Theology dot com. You can also connect with us online on Facebook, Twitter, Tumblr, and Instagram. We’ll see you next week. The post What We Learned From Reading The Bible Every Week for 600 Weeks appeared first on Queer Theology.

We’re joined this week by Troy Weekes (@troyweekesmusic) from “Alphabet Soup” to talk about the show, his music, and faith. From Harlem New York, Troy has been singing since the age of three and performing since the age of fourteen. He is also a songwriter, actor, dancer, and MC/Event Host. He is currently working on his first EP project, under the new genre and style that he created called *Soul & B. He can sing gospel, neo-soul, and R&B, but he did not feel like one or the other is exactly where he fits in. When not working on his own project, Troy can be seen performing with his band, Ji-Groove. and hosting events all across America. “Alphabet Soup,” an unfiltered reality of queer dating in NYC, where raw emotions, intimate texts and authentic relationships unfold without scripts or filters is now airing on Peacock.   In this conversation, Troy shares his journey as a reality TV star on ‘Alphabet Soup,’ discussing the importance of vulnerability, navigating sexuality, and the role of faith in his life with Brian. He emphasizes self-love, authenticity, and the power of community, while also touching on his music career and aspirations for the future. Troy’s insights provide a powerful message of hope and resilience for the LGBTQ community and beyond.   Takeaways Troy emphasizes the importance of being vulnerable in reality TV. He discusses the challenges of navigating sexuality and relationships. Faith plays a significant role in Troy’s life and identity. Troy identifies as pansexual and shares his experiences in dating. He highlights the importance of self-love and authenticity. Troy’s music is a blend of R&B, neo-soul, and gospel. He aims to create a community for LGBTQ couples. Troy believes in the power of manifestation and positive thinking. He shares insights on overcoming personal challenges and societal pressures. Troy encourages others to embrace their true selves and pursue their passions.   Chapters (02:57) Reality Show Dynamics and Vulnerability (05:55) Navigating Sexuality and Relationships (08:41) Faith and Spirituality in Troy’s Life (11:42) Polyamory and LGBTQ+ Identity (14:37) Reactions to the Show and Personal Life (17:24) Troy’s Musical Journey and Live Experience (19:46) The Art of Performance: Blending Music and Comedy (21:03) Spirituality and Vulnerability in Art (22:58) Building Community: Love and Support for LGBTQIA Couples (25:02) Authenticity in Relationships and Reality TV (26:01) Messages of Self-Love and Personal Growth (29:09) Overcoming Challenges and Embracing Change (33:37) Creating a Legacy: Music, Fragrance, and Future Projects (35:58) Finding Joy in Living Authentically   Resources:.  Follow Troy on Instagram @troyweekesmusic  Learn more about Troy at https://www.mta.info/agency/arts-design/collection/troy-weekes-music  Watch “Alphabet Soup” on Peacock: https://www.peacocktv.com/watch-online/tv/alphabet-soup/6837618235516302112  Join our online community at  Sanctuary Collective Community    If you want to support the Patreon and help keep the podcast up and running, you can learn more and pledge your support at patreon.com/queertheology   This transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors or omissions. (9s): Welcome to the Queer Theology Podcast. I’m Brian G Murphy. And I’m father Shannon, T l Kearns. We’re the co-founders of Queer Theology dot com and your hosts from Genesis, revelation, the Bible declare good news to LGBTQ plus people, and we want to show you how Tune in each week on Sunday for conversations about Christianity, queerness and transness, and how they can enrich one another. We’re glad you’re here Today. We are joined by Troy Weeks from the New Reality TV show on Peacock and Amazon Prime Alphabet Soup to talk about the show, his music, and his faith From Harlem, New York. Troy has been singing since the age of three and performing since the age of fourteen. He’s also a songwriter, actor, dancer, and MC and Event Host. (52s): He is currently working on his first EP project under the new genre and style that he created Soul and Beat, which, which he talks about in this episode. He can sing Gospel, neo soul, and R and b, but he did not feel like one or the other is exactly where he fits in. Troy can be seen hosting and performing in events all across the country. This new show that Troy is in Alphabet Soup is an unfiltered reality of queer dating in NYC, where e emotions are raw, intimate texts and authentic relationships unfold without scripts or filters is now airing a peacock at Amazon Prime. In today’s conversation, Troy, she’s Journey as a reality TV star, discusses the importance of vulnerability, navigating sexuality in the role his faith plays in his life. (1m 33s): In this conversation we talk about all about self-love, authenticity, and the power of community, while also exploring his diverse music career. And he gives us some sneak peeks into his future. This is a powerful message of hope and resilience for everyone in the queer community and beyond. I had so much fun chatting with Troy And I think you’re really going to enjoy this episode. Let’s get into it. Troy, thank you so much for being here on the Queer Theology podcast today to talk about yourself and the show that you’re on Alphabet Soup. It’s been a really fun show to watch and I’m so excited to dive into more of it and also like your story because I think you’re like a really, I wanna say compelling character because it’s a TV show, but also you’re actual also actual a real person. So I’m shame person. (2m 15s): I’m glad you said that because that’s one of the most important things about Alphabet Soup is, And I want people to know, like it’s not, it’s not a a scripted show at all. It’s hundred percent a reality series. It’s a documentary, but in reality style. So everything that’s happening is in real life, real time and real life. It’s happening now. Yeah. And so the show, it’s kind of cool. It’s like it follows relationships and dating, but it’s like not a sort of like classic dating show with contestants and these sort of like pre-arranged pairings. Correct. And so, but like you are going on dates and being emotionally vulnerable in front of a camera. And so like what was it like to put yourself out there in in this way? (2m 58s): Well, to start it off, it was like during the pandemic, I think me and Shannon met originally during the Pandemic, he did an original series called Sex Love Misery, which is now out on Amazon. Okay. This is where it all started. Yeah. So put a ca he put a cast in. Now I was like, okay, you know what? I’ve always wanted to be a part of reality in general. Like this is like, I’ve been on a couple reality shows. I actually have another reality show out now and it’s, it’s called Complete Boss. It’s about being a Boston entrepreneur and having your own business. And I, I created my own unisex Fragrance, so Oh, okay. Cool. All those out there who wanna smell, smell amazing, you walk by it like, what is that? You got on? You gotta get you. So I can tell you about it later, But we’ll put all The links to all this in the description. Yes. You guys will have it. I’ll tell you all about it. Yeah. (3m 38s): I’ve been doing Fragrance for 10 years And I decided to do my own because everyone was like, you saw so good. So I was on the show for that, which is out now as well. So I’ve always wanted to do reality. I met Shannon, we did one show and sort of like we just like, Hey, we’ll see what happens with it. Nothing really came of it, but I was the only person that continued to work with him, so I was like, let’s keep the ball rolling, let’s keep the ball rolling. So boom, Alphabet Soup is born And I decided, okay, cool. This is a little bit different And I gotta be more vulnerable in a different way, so I’m gonna go ahead and go with it. And so for me it was a little, it was a little different at first ’cause I’m such a private person when my public life, like I’m a public person, but my life is private. Most people know me as Troy weeks music singer, artist, you know, musical creator, media, personality, interviews, podcasts, all that stuff. (4m 22s): So people know me for being on the camera. And so I’m used to being in front of the camera, but telling my business was a different thing. And so for me, I just felt like years ago I was on another show that was supposed to come out, didn’t come out. And while we’re filming, I was on that show And I was on a podcast, my first podcast, And I decided to come out as pansexual because I never talked about my sexuality. And everyone was always like, Hmm, but what is this? He’s gay. What is it? I’m like, so I got tired of people just asking. So I said, you know what I’m gonna do? I’m gonna do you guys one favor, I’m gonna put it on my podcast and I’m on, and I’m, and the show I’m on so that you guys can watch the episode and go back anytime you have any questions because I don’t have to keep explaining. And I decided to come out as pansexual because I felt like it was hard to date being pansexual, especially when the words started first coming out because people didn’t understand. (5m 4s): And so a lot of women wouldn’t take me seriously because a lot of women didn’t wanna have sex with a man who had sex with another band. So it’s like Barry and then dealing 21 questions and I’m like, for me, I know who I’m, I know where I stand. I’m not gonna, I, I don’t have to deal with that. If you have an insecurity about who I’m in my situation, that’s a problem for you because pansexual man can be a great father, be boyfriend, be fiance, great husband. That doesn’t change anything. And so I, I felt decided to like about to be the face of it. I’ll be the face of it. So once I decided to put my sexuality out there and say, Hey, this is who I’m be the face of pansexuality, boom, I decided to just go on and do it. And then this being show, just, it just naturally led to that. And then even having Ray on my partner, it was a lot, he’s from Jamaica Refugee, he’s never been front the camera. (5m 44s): It’s not his thing at all. And so for him to be at vulnerable, it took months for us to convince him to do it, but he did it. And now he, he’s, he’s so happy that he did because it allowed him to tell his story. So it ain’t been easy y’all, but I’m glad that I was able to put it on a platform like this in, in a different way where we can make change in our community for it better. Yeah. One of the fun things is like, you don’t know upfront anyone’s sexual orientations or their gender identities or their gen gender journeys. It sort of like gets revealed to you as a viewer, you know, as if you were meeting a person in real time. So that’s, it’s kind of fun to sort of be like, wait, like who is this person? What are they into, like what’s their vibe? What are they looking for? And you kind of find out exactly, it gets in pieces. But let’s say you were at like a queer dinner party or queer cocktail party. (6m 25s): Like how might you introduce yourself and, and what are some of the identities that are important to you? You’ve already touched on a few of them. Of course. I definitely would say my pronouns, if you hear them, I would say pansexual, identify as pansexual, the same thing. Like, so always that’s always just fear when me and my partner meet someone because they’re always like, well, you guys together, so you’re two gay guys. My partner’s pansexual and I’m pansexual. I have an 8-year-old daughter, shout out to my baby girl. Genesis Olivia, I love you girl. And so we decided that we wanted to expand our family and like, what does that look like for us? So in talking about it, we both realized we wanted the same thing. We wanted to expand our family. We both wanted to have find a girlfriend or two girlfriends or have, have two girlfriends together. (7m 5s): They wanna be with us, who knows whatever it looks like. We decided that we’re gonna stand on whatever it looked like for us. So it’s usually, hi, I’m choice, my partner away. I’m pansexual, he’s pansexual. I have an 80-year-old daughter, we’re looking for a girlfriend. Boom. So it’s usually how it runs if someone’s like interested because I don’t know how else to put it. So, and then like for instance, my mom watched it. She, she couldn’t pass the first episode ’cause she was just over the fact that I was dating someone else other than Ray. And then the fact that I was, me and Ray were with the girl, we had sex with the girl. She was just like, ah, this is too much for me. Y’all doing too much. Y’all doing too much. I can’t, I can’t, I can’t watch. So, you know, it’s not easy for everyone to, to process in this day and time because it’s still something like that’s not spoken about or sort of taboo in the sense of like reality. (7m 48s): So it’s here, it’s happening and it’s real. And so, you know, I love my mom and like she, we have, we have two ferrets and she hates any kind of animals, any kind of fake animals, anything look like a animal, like creatures. And so she was hugging up on the ferret and we’re friends now. So I’m like, if you can make a relationship with my parent and you don’t even like animals you can fund in your heart to make a relationship with our girlfriend so I don’t get over it. Yeah. And so I know that you’re like a gospel singer and like consider yourself a person of faith. Can you talk a little bit about your like spiritual or religious background and like, you ready for that? Yeah. How that got where you today we’re ready, let’s do it. So I, I grew up in the church first and foremost, I, I found God at 13. (8m 32s): I grew up in an under neighborhood and in my neighborhood there was a community center that always like served food and you know, engaged in the community. And I just happened to go and didn’t know they had a church. And I started going to the church there And I got ready close with the pastor. And so that started my journey in faith and I’ve been a Christian since I was 13 and so on. And I kept going and always singing and always singing as an adult. I moved to New York, back to New York because I left New York for a little while And I got into church choirs here and that’s where I started being in the church here, singing in the church, choirs here. And eventually led me to being a minister of music. So I’ve been a minister of music for five, six years now. A different church. I started singing praise and worship first and then I became a praise and worship leader from praise and worship leader that was a minister of one church and then to another church. (9m 14s): And so the back and forth either praise on worship, leading or ministering. And I’m actually also a Christian Buddhist. Last year my partner And I became Buddhist as well. So we’re Christian Buddhists. So yeah. And I’m actually a licensed minister. I can perform about four weddings this far. So if you’re queer and you look to get married and you want 12 weeks music to be the minister, how you doing? Come On. I love that. And I feel like there’s lots of queer Christian Buddhist crossover. Wow, I didn’t know that. I mean maybe it’s just like my, like my friends, I definitely went through like a Buddhist phase and like I am reading lots of Buddhist books and getting into meditation and the practices. It’s been really a meaningful part of my journey as well. But so I, I know to be like an LGBT person in the church, like it feels, for some people it feels like, oh my God, it was hard enough just to be gay or lesbian, bisexual. (10m 1s): Hard enough To come out. No, I have to. Yeah. And now like when you add non-monogamy, you’re polyamory into the mix. Yeah. It’s like you had another thing. And so like how, what has that been like navigating polyamory as a person at Faith? I dunno if you, I’m like all up in that polyamory person at Faith. I, I’m also polyamorous and bisexual and a person At Faith. So someone understand each other in a way. Like for me it’s like I’m unapologetically who I am And I don’t have to explain who God created me to be. I woke up this man, I woke up me And I tell people all the time when I do my shows, I do a lot of experience. I have my own band, I worked with them 10 years. I just had a show last night and the night before that and night before that. So I’m always working. Music is my life, music is my ministry, nor created me to be a street creature. (10m 41s): And that’s why I’m saying that because all my ministry ties to being in this industry, in the public, being in the eye and being someone that people are looking at. So one being someone that people are always looking at looking up to admired by, like, it, it, it’s been a journey being able to understand and stand in my own truth and be comfortable with that. Because for a long time there’s a lot of things I wouldn’t say or do, but you know, when it comes to the church, you gotta be solid and stand on your own faith for your own self because God is not the church, God is in you. And so you have to be able to stand on that for yourself because you’re gonna go through a transition no matter who you’re, and now us being who we’re is gonna a double transition because now you know it’s a lot more. And so it’s like I’m already now coming out of a stage where I’m trying to find who I am And I’m said this is who I am standing on it. (11m 21s): And then now the one group of people who’s supposed to all lean on and I’m supposed to rely on for love, for confidence, for guidance is sort of giving resistance too. So where do I go? And this is why a lot of us ends up in all houses in in the ballroom scene or in different situations where we shouldn’t be in because we’re looking for love or looking for comfort, looking for guidance in all the wrong places. And because we don’t have that, it leads us down the wrong path a lot. We gotta go through a lot of things to get to a point where we really find ourselves and and understand who we’re, And I feel like, you know, don’t nobody, don’t nobody know how to struggle like a LGBTQ Christian. Okay. Because Amen. Especially if you’re black, I ain’t gonna hold it. But it, especially if you’re black or trans because those two, being black in our community and being and being on GT is a lot and especially just being trans in general is, is is you know, in any community could be a lot. (12m 8s): So it is just something that you know, you gotta realize and stand on. When I said yes to the call on God’s life for me, I said, it’s one thing I didn’t tell you what to do Lord, but I need to not be around the corner. I don’t wanna go, I don’t wanna be a preacher in the church around the corner because there’s a lot of people in these church houses playing church And I don’t have time for it. I wanna be like Jesus, I wanna go to the, I wanna go down to down the street, I the corner. I wanna be like Jesus. And so I said yes and the Lord showed me, boom. Yeah. Immediately right after that I was in a setting, I was hosting karaoke, didn’t never been. And I was hosting karaoke And I was in a lounge and the Lord used me to prophesy to people and minister to people like I was in a church. Now I wasn’t on the microphone of everyone, but it was in a, to them personally, you come here, lemme talk to you for a minute. (12m 51s): The Lord told me to tell you this, da da da. Go get, go get Sarah. Tell Sarah to come here. And I’ve never did that in a real church. Like I’ve never done that in a church house. So for the Lord to say, okay, this is what you’re doing, boom. I never had an experience like that again per se. It’s always impersonal, personal like person to person. But I don’t play with God. And I already knew that that was that and that was that on that. And so every time I do a show, my live experience I call it, I always give a message because a lot of things, everything I do ties to my ministry. That’s why I said I’m a street preacher with that. I’ve even created my own style of music. ’cause I sing RB, Neo soul and gospel music, but I didn’t fit into one style and genre alone. So I created soul and bead. So if you look up drawing so hard, my single and have a video for it, that’s the epitome of what soul and be is because everything I do has a message makes you think about something, makes you wanna change, makes you wanna get up and do something. (13m 34s): And I don’t say Jesus lord of Christ, but you feel the spirit, you feel it. And I say to me, that’s the most important thing. I don’t have to say anything about spirituality, but you gonna feel it no matter what, no matter who you are, no matter where I’m at. And so that’s why the Lord created me to be me And I stand on it. Amen. Can you talk a little bit more, I love that so much. I, my Shannon And I hear are Queer Theology. I think long time listening to the podcast we’ll be like yeah, yeah, yeah. Like purchase like a drag show or a ballroom or like brunch with your friends or just like late night like Kiki. Like it’s, it’s like that’s the spirit there too. Can you talk a bit more about how you’ve like found God sort of outside of church walls? So once I realized who God was and, And I said yes to the Lord, that was the beginning journey for me because growing up where I grew up in the neighborhood, it wasn’t a good neighborhood and there was nobody around me who was in church. (14m 21s): So it was me in my spirituality sort of against all of them and trying to, you know, convert them and change and help them understand better. And like, and I’m 1314, so I like, and this ain’t, That’s a lot of weight to put on a 13-year-old, right? It’s like, why me? Like, you know this like, it’s a lot for me to handle, but it allowed me to be the stance for my family to open the door. And at that time I didn’t understand, but now I understand who I’m and why that purpose was because of the, the authority that I have and how my, how my family and everyone else looks up to me. The Lord shows me for that particular thing. Because when I say things, people speak, things happen and people listen. And so I’ve been that living example and because I’ve been an example, I’ve been able to, you know, get my mom closer to guy and get my sister, like most of the people close to me, closer to guy, anybody that’s around me, I’m hugging on you, speaking into you. (15m 7s): So it’s like I realize that this is really who I am and that it’s important to like, even to tell people like as simple as I work with you today, like I’m proud of you And I I’m telling you this, like I’m proud of you after researching you and looking at what you’ve done, looking with you guys, how far you’ve come. I’m proud of you. And like you have to be able to tell those two people and let them know why they, why they, why they’re alive and let some other flowers now because that’s important. Yeah. We don’t have to know each other to big each other up, but I’m proud of you. Yeah, yeah. So like what’s the reaction been like to you and the show and the sort of like the, the non monogamy of it and the sort like bold, I mean like boldly talk about sex and like it’s, it’s like you go there. (15m 48s): Oh yeah, We don’t, we go there. Literally. What’s the, what’s the re like in your personal life or amongst like your your more like your, your queer friends who aren’t religious, your religious friends who like aren’t queer. Everyone’s just first of all shocked when I’m like, it’s on Peacock. They’re like That. I know it’s wild. You like, there’s like, you’re like, I that’s you, that’s me. It’s you and you’re on Peacock and like you’re talking about fetish and you’re talking, you got your, your your cap and the harnesses and like I’m really exposed. Like it’s beautiful, they’re very shocked. But this, that’s not prefacing when I tell the people that’s, I’m telling ’em watch it for the first time I’m talking to, I say, listen, it’s a little different than what you’re used to. (16m 31s): You know me but you don’t know me. You’re getting a little bit insight into my personal life and it’s gonna be some things that you don’t know about me that you’re gonna find out. But you know, go watch for yourself and find out we can talk about it later. And that’s how to preface it because I’m like, same with my mom. She’s like, ah, so some people can handle it and some people can’t. And I, it’s not a surprise. I’ve been telling people this for a while so it’s not like they just saw it and found out like, oh my god. So if they aren my immediate family, like we did a screening a couple times, like for my birthday two, two years ago we did a screening and my family came in frame my birthday family friends. So like they got a dose of it. I got to watch it in first hand in a room full of 35, 40 people like react to the first episode. So, so it was, it was interesting like people who like who’ve known me, seen me grow up as a kid, you know, they’ve never seen me intimate or ready before like that kissing and all that stuff. (17m 15s): So it was a eye opener. So, but it’s always been a great reaction like for the most part. And I, a lot of people that who know me, they’re like wow, it’s a lot. You know, I understand this is who you are now. I know. But it’s always been positive for the most part. I know that there’s been some negativity out in the world that’s out there now. I’ve seen some of the posts and some things people say, but like I said in a lot last podcast, I don’t really take it in a negative way. ’cause I’ve learned being on the side of media, being involved, like I don’t give in my energy because I’m not giving you my power. Yeah. So what I’ll do is say thank you for watching. Your view means a lot, but your opinion is your opinion. Have a good night. Yeah. Bam. I don’t have to feed into the negativity, but you still watch it. So regardless of what people say. And so for me, I’ve been trying to teach that to the youngsters, the new ones, the newbies in the game of reality TV or or being on camera that there’s gonna be that no matter what. (17m 57s): Especially with t lgbtq, there’s a lot probably polyamory is a lot of what y’all doing in here on what we’re doing. So I mean, me personally, I expect that, but to me the message is always bigger. At the end of the day. You’re always gonna have the naysay, but the message is always bigger and so methods focus on that. Yeah. I mean I just think it’s like so powerful the way it’s, you’re you and like the other members of the show are just like so boldly yourselves and like unafraid to go there and that like, I don’t know, like kids all over the country are gonna be able to like watch it on Peacock. It’s not like Peacock, Remember is Amazon Prime? Yeah. I remember having to like secretly like use Kada download like Queer Folk or Noah’s Ark. (18m 38s): Right, right. Watching it alone in my bedroom. Right. You just like log into peacock.com like it’s cool, it’s wild. It’s right there for you. Yeah, that was just a dream for too because that’s, it was such a process. That’s why it took so long to finally happen because Shannon was like, you know what? We worked so hard on this, it’s a great message. Like it’s something different. Let’s just go for a big push. And so he pushed for a while with, you know, different aggregators to get it pushed major networks out tv, you know, all these other networks was interested and just the process of the networking game is, is just numbers waiting and la la la la But at the end of the day it was all worth it because we ended up with Peacock and Amazon Prime. So it was amazing. You know, the sky’s the limit to where I can go right now ’cause it’s taking the wheels of its own and so we’re just blessed. (19m 21s): Yeah. So you’re also like in addition to this, you know, reality dating star, a musician in your own right. And then, so talk to me, talk to me about like music and how that’s like, been part of your, your life and your journey. Ladies and gentlemen, that’s how I stop my show. So just that’s give you a little peek. So I’m Troy Weeks music. I’ve been single since I was three in performance since 14. I actually just won McDonald’s Gospel Fest 2025 male soloist winner. So for those of you who don’t know now, you know yeah boy just won 2025 McDonald Gospel Fest winner. So I’ve been been single since three performance since 14. And I had just been on this journey of finding myself. And so that’s how at age 28, the Lord let me to find soul and being, create my own style and genre music. (20m 6s): And then from then it’s been going, I’ve had my own band now over 10 years. The four weeks I’ve experience, and it started from one gig became eight months and now 10 years. So you can find me look all over the place performing. I travel, we travel, I’m always somewhere hosting like on red carpets, interviewing people or doing my podcast. I started doing media, my podcast years ago I was with a podcast And I one podcast I was on a a talk show from a talk show to another podcast, to my own podcast, free Yourself for four weeks. Music Out, you can look it up. And I have got that advice for weeks music, but it Very Awesome is And who I am and that’s really who I’m Troy’s music. (20m 49s): Yeah. And we’ll, and we’ll pull links to all this in the show notes, but I think recaps at the end of the episode. But like for this live experience, it sounds like really rad. Like where can people, if I wanna like come experience Troy’s Troy Weeks’s music experience, like how do, like where is that happening? Yeah, so the best thing to do is just check my Instagram because my Instagram is like my, my main source of everything. Yeah. I have a show, like my stories, I put a lot in my personal business because that’s, you know, it’s half fun people, like they watch it. Yeah. Since I, especially since I won McDonald’s gospel spread, especially since I’m on Alphabet super on Peacock people watching. So I put a lot of things on my story. So if you go to my Instagram at Troy weeks music, W-E-E-K-E-S, Troy, weeks, music on everything. If you type in Google you’ll see my whole life. But on Instagram I put all my shows and usually in the city you can find me mostly in Harlem, at Savannah Shrine, Harlem Nights downtown at the Groove. (21m 37s): So I reside, have residencies throughout the city, but I’m always a little, I’m gonna, I’m gonna come, I’m gonna come sometimes Be your city, you know, I’m all over the place. So it’s like if you, you know, once you see me, you can’t unsee me. Yeah. Once you see the experience, you can’t unsee it. And that’s the most important thing. If you, if you don’t, you just gotta come see for yourself. I always say you, you gotta see it for yourself. And the reason why I say experience, because I always tell people from the jump after I say ladies and gentlemen and hold a note forever, forever, boom. And I got asthma, but I can still hold the notes. That’s all part of the joke. And I have glasses with no lenses, so I see everything, all of that is part of the show live experience. Right. I went to scuba theater. Yeah. Okay. So I gotta add it in there. Look how vibrant I look. Okay, you kid, you gotta have confidence to worship like this. So after that I took them on the journey And I tell ’em, snap, clap, sing, move, and give money, you know, you gotta give a little tip. (22m 26s): Now some of us got kids the Pampers and teeth, you know, so yeah, I do a little standup comedy hosting all of it together. So it’s a musical experience and so I always let them up from the beginning. What, what the, what the house was on. And the last thing I say is, oh, you ready for the show? Yeah. You ready? And we get moving. Yeah. I mean it sounds like transcendent, it’s essentially cool. Like how, what’s your process like of putting together, like you’re, you’re weaving together music and comedy and storytelling and fa and fashion and spirituality and faith. Like, like what, how do you, like what’s your process like? How do you tap into all of that and pull it together? That’s a good question. I think the most important thing is, is I always stay tapped into my face first because, yeah, I stay grounded because being, I’m, I’m a preacher and a street preacher, so for me it’s like being, like, it’s hard to tap into that and then untap out of it. (23m 17s): And that’s the process that people don’t understand. I’m, I’m, I’m making myself physically, spiritually vulnerable so that I can provide for what the people need. So opening up myself, opening up myself, open myself every single time. So one, I stay true to myself. I already asked for this and the Lord said yes. And I said yes. And the sense of where I’m going. So I always go with the flow. I always, it’s always an experience, always a message because I want people to understand what’s happening. So sometimes I’ll say things I won’t remember because I’m a prophet And I always tell you if I might never remember this because it’s not for me, it’s for you, God, save the Lord. So for me, balancing all these things together is just, it’s, it’s an experience because I, I, it’s easy to burn out, but this is really my passion in my life And I wake up every day excited to do this, excited to be me, excited to go on this next journey, next experience and tap in. (24m 9s): And because I have someone who loves and supports me, having a great support system is important. My partner, we’re about to make four years in August and it’s just been a journey in that itself. Watch off of that suit you go see, we go through real life situations, things that real couples go through. And I think it’s important that people see a great representation of love. And this is why my partner And I Ray, we’re working on a, our community, I would say a community collective called 4K, four couples only. It’s a collective for L-G-B-T-Q-A, couples and couples, straight couples or allies of us. But we do events where we have couples only in a space where we can enjoy each other’s time and each other’s company because there’s not a lot of couples in our community that I know, I other people how many gay couples, you know, how many couples, you know there a lot of people dunno out of couples who are in our community. (24m 53s): So something has to give. And if me and my man gotta be Martin Luther King and Martin Luther King too, if our community would love and some people love is more, is important to bring back the love, the how important love is. And we will. And so we do these events. So if you’re a couple out there, we have a Facebook four, just reach out to me on my Instagram and say I wanna be a part of it. There’s a Facebook group on call 4K, four couples only. But I think I have to invite you to the group. I’m still trying to figure that part out. I’m new to the Facebook part of it. But yeah, like we we’re created a community of love And I feel like you just have to do what you have to do. And if you have to be the pillar for it, you have to. But it’s time to make change. We need to know that love is there and if you love yourself, you can find the love you need. You can manifest the love you want. Stop being so negative, putting things out there. I’m never gonna find, I’m never gonna, you can have anything you want if you believe it because manifestation is real. (25m 33s): You just gotta believe it. Yeah. Amen. You mentioned your, like your partner Ray that you do a lot of work with, he’s your partner also. You were on the show together. What was it like, like not just putting yourself up there, but putting your, like being on this reality show and, and putting your relationship with Ray and that dynamic between the two of you out, like you talked about a little bit about earlier about being like vulnerable in your, in your show and as an artist, but also I’m sure like this is like that time d kind of Exactly. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, it was, it wasn’t easy because again, I’m a very public person, so my, my, my private life is private And I keep it private for a reason, but it just sort of aligned itself where it just was time for me to finally go out there and tell my story and tell the truth and put it out there what’s happening because it’s, it’s a lot of people who need to see what looks like them and representation of themselves and, and know that they’ll be okay and they’ll be comfortable with it. (26m 29s): And I felt like I wanted to be able to be that and to, for Ray to finally come around full circle and do that and then see himself back and realize he was happy with his decision. Like, oh my God, not like he regretted it. It felt good because we just did a podcast recently and they asked that question like, how, like, did you guys have a fight after the show film or did you guys regret doing anything, like saying anything or doing anything? We didn’t because we were authentically ourselves and you know, and, and real about how we felt. And we do that in our relationship at, at home. And so that comes out through the TV and so it’s important that you have some strong, you have to have a foundation to stand on. You gotta have a good foundation for your house. If you ain’t got a foundation for your house, when the women blow, it’s gonna fall down. So you gotta start have a strong foundation and that relationship is different and it’s not easy, but being able to go through that journey on this process played out is inspiring to me as well because it inspiring. (27m 18s): It’s gonna be an inspiring to other people. So I figured that the message is bigger. It was, it was bigger than us. Yeah. And what’s like, what’s one message or a few messages that you hope viewers of Alphabet Soup take away from it? Take away from watching it. One, I hope you, I hope you understand like in in the trailer, if you don’t love yourself, I’d have you gonna love somebody else. Start with that. So you gotta love you first friend because there’s no way you can live somebody else in like, and us being l lgbtq going through the journeys of transition of getting out the house to come out the closet in the church, it’s a lot. And so you really gotta understand that you could really be in a moment of time to find the person for you, but you don’t love yourself enough to be able to understand and realize what’s happening. You miss the window of opportunity. Sometimes you don’t get it again. (27m 59s): So it’s important to one, walk away with love yourself first so that you can be able to receive the love you want. Because dating out here ain’t easy. Two, be authentically yourself. You wake up, you, I tell people all the time I’m gonna do my shows are my live experience. You wake up, you, it don’t cost you no money to be you, it free. You just gotta believe anything you wanna do and put your mind to it. You can do it and you can achieve it. And so be your best self. Because I’ve been told no by the four American Idol, the Voice, America’s Got Talent, all these shows. 23 times I’ve been told no. But I’m so talented and so great. I’m still living my dreams. I got my own band. I’ve been for 10 years now. I’ve been putting other artists on. I’ve been doing amazing things because your talent not based on somebody else, it’s based on you, your faith and your trusting and believing in yourself. (28m 39s): ’cause God gave you the gift, not somebody else. And so walk in it and don’t be afraid. ’cause God gives you everything you need to make it happen. Don’t be afraid, walk in it, stand in it and walk in it. It ain’t gonna be easy. It wasn’t easy for Jesus to walk through the stand and then he wasn’t easy to come to hang himself on under the cross for, for us. But at the end of the day, there has to be, you have to stand for something or your fault for anything. Yeah. You gotta be able to say, this is what I’m doing, this is what I’m standing, like you’re standing in your faith and like you trust God and you stand, you gotta be able to stand up the same way. And I feel like that is what’s important. Take that away. And last but not least be able to have an open mind. Like the world is bigger than your two eyes right here and what you see in front of you. Like there’s so much money you can learn. And then like I learned the ignorance of that. We were taught, we were all taught ignorance. (29m 21s): I don’t care who you’re, where you’re from the world. We’re born being taught ignorance based on who we’re and where we’re from and who our family is. And so learn to unlearn all that negativity because at the end of the day, you only got one life to live and you’re not a cat, you ain’t got nine, you have one, it’s your life to live. And every day you get a to wake up And I, I could do today. And so, you know, age is nothing but a number. A lot of people say I’m too old, I’m too age is nothing but a number. Cheryl Lee Ralph said, if you can’t do it in your thirties, 20 through your thirties, you can’t do it in your thirties, do it in your forties. You can’t do it to your forties in your fifties. Can’t do it in your fifties. Do it your sixties. Like just do it like yeah, don’t ever stop doing it. Like your time is your time and if you believe this is what you’re supposed to be doing, just keep working. (30m 1s): That is why I’ve never given up because I know for a fact that the age has nothing to do with what my gift is gonna do for the world. Mm. And so I just stay focused on, on the prize looking forward. Because if you’re looking backwards in the past and on around you, on the side with the struggle, you can’t go forward. God’s trying to bless you. Look where you’re going. Listen, stay in tune and focus, you know? Yeah. Stop. Listen to everything else around you. Focus on what yourself meditate something. Yeah. I’m, I’m turning 40 in two weeks, so I’ve been reminding myself that a lot recently. Like, oh Wow, come on now I’m still be there, Have age just to number, not I’m still here. Like I got more life ahead of me. We got things to do. Keep on, keep on on. Yeah, Exactly. (30m 41s): I’m soon be 40, I’m 30, I turned 39 this year. So I understand like when he gets to those close age ranges, it’s like you start to question yourself. Like my, my biggest fear was being 30 and having the show for it. And my daughter was born a couple days before my 30th birthday. So it’s like I was with that fear for so long and look, I got the greatest gift of the world. Like the Lord trusts me enough to be a dad and for me to have a kit. So age is nothing but an ember. You can do anything you wanna do. If you really believe it, it’s just like, just don’t lose, just don’t lose faith in it. Just don’t lose the hope in it. You can do anything. You, as long as you still preach, you can do anything you want to do. The world in society and our family, everyone teaches us. Oh, with the weights on you, that’s look you supposed to overcome. Yeah, yeah, yeah. (31m 22s): So it’s okay that you’re gonna go through these trends. You’re always in a transitional, you’re always transitioning, you’re always on a on on a rotating like circle. You know what I’m saying? And that’s the part that you have to understand. You, you, you, you’re never gonna be the same. You gonna always evolve. So as you evolve, you gotta check in with yourself. I like to say I’m getting ready before you got you evolving now in a different Yeah. Decade. So how do I check in with yourself? How do I, what, what does this look like for me? Where am I going and what do I didn’t do that I don’t need to do? Or are the waste of my time and what do I need to do now to focus on where I’m going? And like those little things will make a change. It’s not the negativity of age because they ain’t number because you be plus something. Yeah. So it yeah, yeah, yeah. Has nothing to do with ages more about you as a person and how you overcome those things being thrown at you. (32m 6s): You know, you’ve already, you made it about to make 40, so I know you Overcome it. You know how many queer men didn’t make it to 40? Like what a blessing. Like god damn. That is My whole point. Yeah. You’re overcome, you overcame it. Yeah. So now what’s the next thing? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Man, pressure. Pressure makes diamonds. I totally like some of the hardest parts. Like they sucked. I wouldn’t, I didn’t wanna go through them, but also like they formed me into to who I am. So I You wouldn’t be who you’re, You’re all you Exactly. That Pass the points one push. Yeah. You wouldn’t be able to stand here and be confident and strong enough to stand here on your own podcast. One of the longest one lgbtq, come on. You wouldn’t be able to do that if you did not stand and believe in that. So shout out to you. Yeah. Yeah. It was like, I mean, not, not to make it about me, but like 12 years ago when we started this, like people were not happy that we were talking about sex and religion and queerness. (32m 51s): They were like, we wanna be just good. Well we’ll just be good gay Christians and like, don’t talk about polyamory, don’t talk about sex or like abolish the prisons. Like feed all the people have radical love, self-acceptance, like open relationships. It’s all like, and they’re like, you, You don’t even know how many people that you’ve, you’ve impacted though being able to be the voice because you too were the voice to be able to make change for a whole new world. Like, I’m even talking to you about this, it seems, I’m like, like I, It’s cool. Yeah. I’ve never been able to actually talk to someone who would understand and be able to go through it. So for me it’s like, that’s what I’m saying. Like I, I-I-I-I-I understand where you’re coming from, but somebody had to do it and you did it so that you could be where you’re, yeah. (33m 32s): I remember eight years ago were like on some like live webinar or something And I referenced being polyamorous. People were like, I’ve never heard another Christian out loud in public say that they were polyamorous. And I was like, hello. Hi to me. How you doing? You, you mentioned like a moment ago, like in one of your like three points was like the, the importance of loving yourself. Like how are some of the ways that you’ve learned to love yourself, like in worlds that are like stacked against us sometimes. Like what are some of the ways you’ve cultivated that, that, that self love For me, I realized that I can’t change things that I have no control over. So I, and knowing and learning that it changed my life. (34m 13s): And then ultimately the biggest change was becoming a addiction and abuse coach. Because I went through so much in my life that I had to deal with those. I was angry And I didn’t know, I was angry when I was angry. So I had to go through a lot to realize, you know what, this is what that is, this is what that is. And I came into a point where I realized things like emotional incest and the abuse I was really getting. I didn’t know it was abuse. And so I said, you know what? Now that I know this, I’m gonna take my power back. So I set boundaries, new boundaries for myself and moving forward with around. And so I said, okay, even with my mom, dad, boundaries, Boundaries, boundaries. So important. Yeah. And My mom’s only son and she has three kids. I have a 20 sibling. I’m my mom’s only son. And so she loves and adores me. (34m 54s): But I have to say, listen mom, I’m at a new place in my life, a new bond in my life where I’m tired of being your son and your boyfriend. I just wanna be your son. Just wanna be your son. I just need my mom. So I’m gonna let the boyfriend go. ’cause I need to need you to be my mom And I, we gonna have to figure out what that looks like, but let’s just do it because that’s what I need for, I have my own family, I have own relationship, I have my own things I need to focus on And I don’t wanna focus that energy that anymore. And the same thing with my dad. My dad, I love my dad. I, my dad’s oldest kid, And I keep saying oldest because I’m the oldest of my twin sister And I, but I’m the oldest all the kids. And so me, my dad are very close, so I’m my kids. He looks like he’s, he looks young, they have us young, so we look like brothers. And so I’m like, he was just here in town actually last week for the first time in a long time. And I was hosting karaoke and he gotta come sing with me. He don’t even sing. (35m 35s): It was interesting. It was dope. So it’s like, I tell my dad the same thing. I don’t wanna be your brother and your son anymore. I just want you to be my dad. Like, I need to separate this so that I can move on with my life because you’ve given me responsibility for too long And I don’t check on anymore. I got my own things to where about. So boom. So you have to come those realizations. So when I realized that And I became my whole self, now I’m able to operate and walk and move in a different way to let myself, in a way I can check in And I can know what the boundaries are for me. I know what, what doesn’t feel right. I know what, you know, what I need to do to change it. So taking more accountability, being more responsible. And so I, I use those things to one, live the be a living example to teach people how to be better. What a beautiful, what a beautiful message. So like Alphabet Soup, it’s out now on Peacock and Amazon Prime. (36m 17s): Troy works music on Instagram. Like where else can folks find you and like what else have you got coming up? Yeah, so basically again, all social media at Troy weeks music. So I have, I have a few shows coming up next month. Again, a live of experience coming up hosting karaoke again next month coming up. There’s a lot of activity, a lot of musical activities happening. So come and check it out. I also working on getting a full launch with my product, but uni it’s a unisex Fragrance that I created. I’ve been doing Fragrance for 10 years And I decided to finally do my own because it was like this muscle. Good. So not only is it in a spray form, it’s in an oil form, it’s in the body, shower, wash, body gel, lotion, body butter, massage oil. So full body, head to toe smelled good, smelled great uni, I wanna Check it out. (37m 0s): Yeah. And then also again, I run McDonald’s Gospel Fest. That was that. And so now I started working on the shows, working on getting uni off the ground. I’m working on my album soon. So I’m really, I have a full body of work. I’ve got, I’ve got tons of music out videos s with other people. Yeah. But it’s time that I’m finally working on my album, the Book of Life. It’s been 10 years in the making. And so babe, when that hit the ground, it’s gonna be on and popping. And y’all gonna be looking for me at your local town because when my album comes up, my goal is to go on tour to different towns, different states, different cities, and do the tour weeks live experience. And I always do, but add my own music in. Now people can hear my music, know my songs, and make it a real live experience and feature some artists from different towns. So get yourselves ready if you’re out there, if you’re an artist, check my music out. (37m 41s): If you’re s saying private vibe, I’m definitely looking forward to collaborative with artist. Y’all can, watching you on Peacock, Amazon. Now, I’m assuming y’all can watch me on the Complete Network Looking, complete Network. The show is called Complete Boss Bootcamp. That’s why I had uni had a billboard out in Atlanta for us. So if you’re in Atlanta, you might have seen my billboard out there from being on the show, still being a dad and loving it, loving my man and loving my life. I So check, check me out guys. Again, I love connecting with people. I’m not afraid to talk, ask questions. You can just, I’m, I’m touchable reachable, I answer my own dms and all that. I ain’t got nobody doing it for me. So let’s talk if you guys have any questions, and if you’re ever in New York City for the moment of time, come the two weeks. (38m 26s): Yeah, thank you for all that. We’ll put all that in the description of the episode and then we like to close out by asking like, what’s one thing that’s bringing you joy these days? One thing that’s bringing me joy is knowing that me being, living in my truth, specifically with this moment in time, something like this is gonna really be able to make change. Like, I’ve tried so hard to be the change and now that I don’t, I, being myself is actually making the change. So I, I’m bringing joy doing, spreading the word every day with about Alphabet Soup because it’s bringing light and opening minds to people that they’ve never seen before. Especially when they see it to me, it’s like, oh, well Troy’s normal. I I know him if he’s, you know, do this. And maybe it’s something like I may be interested in too. I don’t know. So like, to be able to wake up every day and inspire people gives me so much joy. (39m 8s): So that’s what it is for me. Keeping it, I’m keeping it normal. Thank you for being here, Troy, and thank you for being a part of Alphabet Soup. It’s such a, like the show in general is such a beautiful show that like showcases queer life from so many different angles and, and like the love and the beauty of it and the joy, but also like that you keep it real in the show and like the drama and the difficulty Real, The the, the struggle of a dating scene sometimes. And like it’s just, it feels like so real but also like so beautiful and so hopeful and so I love it. And you’re such a great part in this, in the show. And so yeah, thanks for everything. Yes, Y’all go watch it. Please go watch it, go watch it, go watch it. You really enjoy it. And this season two is already done, so at some point that’ll be all. (39m 48s): But please engage, tell somebody else about it. I think it’s important that we spread the word so that people can know that we’re out here, we’re queer, we’re loud, and it’s this so let’s do it. Yeah, I’m hooked. It’s such, I’m like, every episode ends and I’m like, oop, I gotta, I gotta keep watching. Like it just, right. What’s that? There’s some good, there’s some good cliffhangers in there. It’s good. It’s a good show Suck. Food stamps. Yeah, from the Trailer. One of my favorites, so yeah. Awesome. Alright, well thanks again for being here and links to all of Troy’s stuff will be in the episode description and we’ll talk to you next week. Oh Yeah. See you guys. Thank you so much for having me. Just a reminder that we’re hosting another three week cohort, all about integrating queer sex and non-monogamous relationships with our values and our faith and our spirituality. (40m 32s): It’s called Poly Possibilities. And we’re starting later this month. We would love to have you join. It’s happening inside of our community and Learning hub. Learn more at Queer Theology dot com slash polyposis. The Queer Theology podcast is just one of many things that we do at Queer Theology dot com, which provides resources, community, and inspiration for L-G-B-T-Q, Christians and straight cisgender supporters. To dive into more of the action, visit us at Queer Theology dot com. You can also connect with us online on Facebook, Twitter, Tumblr, and Instagram. We’ll see you next week. The post Finding God Outside the Walls of Church with Troy Weekes from Alphabet Soup appeared first on Queer Theology.

We get a lot of questions about hell, the rapture, and end times. So awhile back, we did a series on Scary Things. For this week, we have another throw back episode from this series. For this one, we’ll focus on the Rapture and the End of the World.  We’re talking all about end times, the rapture, and other “scary” things from the Bible. We are certain that no matter the religion or faith you were brought up in, you’ve probably heard something or another about the end of the world and in this episode, Brian and Fr. Shay talk about what they were taught, whether they believe in the rapture, and a hilarious (twisted?) rapture-themed practical joke from Shay’s childhood.   Resources:.  Listen to all the Scary Things episodes: https://www.queertheology.com/podcast/424/  Join our online community at  Sanctuary Collective Community  If you want to support the Patreon and help keep the podcast up and running, you can learn more and pledge your support at patreon.com/queertheology   This transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors or omissions. (9s): Welcome to the Queer Theology Podcast. I’m Brian G Murphy. And I’m father Shannon, T l Kearns. We’re the co-founders of Queer Theology dot com and your hosts from Genesis, revelation. The Bible declares good news to LGBTQ plus people and we want to show you how Tuning in each week on Sunday for conversations about Christianity, queerness and transness, and how they can enrich one another. We’re glad you’re here. Hello, hello. Hello. As you can tell from the title of this episode, we are coming to you today with another Throwback episode. There’s just so many gems that we want to share some more of them with you. And this one in particular we picked because it touches upon some themes that we’ve been seeing a lot of inside of the sanctuary community and the discussions that folks have been having, the questions that they’ve been asking, the ways in which they’ve been responding to stuff that’s going on in the world and in their lives, as well as some of the comments we’ve gotten on our Instagram, some emails that we’ve received recently that this sort of like idea of hell or disappointing God or being punished because of something we’ve done wrong looms large over many of us. (1m 13s): And that is true for folks that even into intellectually don’t believe that there’s a hell or intellectually don’t believe that God is punishing them. Still, we are finding that sometimes there’s like some lingering fear going on, or just like not sure how to respond to people. If there’s a well-meaning parent or friend or uncle who is like really concerned about the fate of your eternal soul that can sort of like question of like, is God mad at me? Is God gonna punish me now or after I die? Is something that like looms large for folks? And so we wanted to highlight this series that we did a few years ago called like Scary Things that You may have Learned in Church. It’s a four part series. We’re going to air the first episode for you right now as a Throwback. (1m 54s): If you would like to listen to the remainder of that series, you can go to Queer Theology dot com slash Scary Things and we’ll have them all linked in one place for you. There. Also, inside of our Learning Community hub, we have an A place to discuss the podcast. I mean, these episodes also live in there. That’s in the free for all area. So if you would like to discuss this episode of the one other ones that you listen to with us, with other folks who are also listening to it, going over to my greati com and create a free account while you’re there, you can also sign up for Spiritual Study Hall and or Sanctuary Collective if you want to get access to the community or get access to sort of our like OnDemand library resources. It’s sort of like a masterclass for spiritual nerdery and sacred storytelling and things like that. (2m 36s): So, and it also obviously supports this work. So without further ado, here is the first episode in the Scary Things series. We are entering another special series and this is about Scary Things that you might have been taught in church. We’re gonna cover four parts over the next four episodes, the Rapture and End Times Satan Hell and Eternal Damnation. And it’s, yeah, it’s a little bit inspired by the format is gonna be a little bit inspired by the, you’re wrong about podcasts if you’ve ever heard that. And so for each episode, either Shea or I will be sort of like lead me the other through the various Scary Things we and you at home might have been taught at church. (3m 20s): And so today we’re gonna start with the rapture in the end times. Shay, this is your episode, so take it away. Oh, I’m so excited. I feel like anyone who has listened to this podcast for more than a hot second knows that I have a lot of thoughts and feelings about the rapture. And so, but I would love to hear from you, like I grew up in a very specific tradition. Brian, you grew up in a, an evangelical Presbyterian church, so a a bit of a more mainline tradition. And so I would love to know like what were you taught about the rapture? Like is, was that even a thing for your church growing up? Yeah, I don’t think that the rapture was super a thing that was taught from the pulpit or in Sunday school. (4m 4s): It definitely like wasn’t emphasized in like official church channels. Right? But I was also like, I was evangelical Presbyterian, so it was kind of this like, how are you both right? It was like double predestination, but also you have to go tell all of your friends about Jesus. And so, but the rapture was kind of like something that like generally was floating around in the ether. And at some like the end times or the left behind books or something that I never read, we definitely didn’t read as like a group, but that, that I had heard of, knew about people talked about. (4m 45s): And so a lot of the sort of my exposure to end times teaching was much more sort of like speculative amongst my peers rather than something that was drilled in from the church leadership. And I remember, but I must have internalized it because I remember talking to my parents who converted to evangelicalism as teenagers And I was like, listen, I just have a, I have a feeling on my heart, God has put it on my heart that Jesus is gonna come back before any of the four of us die. So we don’t have to worry about death and dying and being separated because like, I just know, I just really believe that Jesus is gonna come back and we’re all gonna get to go straight to heaven and skip the dying part. (5m 28s): And so, I dunno, like I think that I more so than being like magically suped up, I think I was maybe more along the lines of that like Jesus would come down first. Hmm. And like what, what if anything were you taught about either how the world would end, what would happen when Jesus came back? Like what was kind of in the, in the zeitgeist about that? Yeah, we didn’t talk about it that much. I mean, I think that like something about Jesus coming down, like I have like vivid imageries, like maybe he would be riding a horse or a chariot or I like a unicorn. (6m 12s): I do know that like when I was a kid, I used to see like when I would like, you know how sometimes like rays of light will sort of like poke through the clouds and like there’s enoughness that you can actually see the sun beam. I’d be like, oh, do you think? Like, do you think Jesus is about to come down over there? But I, so it wasn’t like volcanoes exploding or mass wart. It was like, oh, I think I’ll just sort of likes descend. And I, I do know that I think, I think it Christian, like this type of Christian talk often points to images from Revelation. I have this idea that that’s where a lot of this end times and or rapture imagery comes from. And so like there’s like something about the mark of the beast, something about 6, 6 6, like maybe something about like war, but it wasn’t like, I didn’t have like one specific cohesive narrative. (7m 6s): And then I also was like, they were like, there was, I think it was Carmen like Carmen song being the champion, like the is also sort of like part of that whole sort of like zeitgeist. We are gonna put a link to the champion music video in the show notes because if you did not grow up with Carmen, there is no adequate way for us to explain this man to you nor to explain his, and I’m using air quotes music to, to you. So I would just like go watch video. I would Have your mind, I would blast the champion And I would just kind of like, not dance, but just sort of like, you can’t see me. (7m 48s): I like, like I was a fighter, right? Like sort of like bouncing around the room, like imagining like Satan in the ring gonna get killed by Jesus the warrior. Yes. My church youth group of course led by me did a human video to the champion and many others of course. So, you know, I grew up very much in a rapture tradition, which is interesting and we will talk more about that in a moment. You know, I very much believe that the rapture was coming, that at some point the, so the idea was like at some point Jesus would like come partially back to earth and that anyone who was the right type of Christian would rise to meet Jesus in the air. (8m 35s): So Jesus would only, he would be like floating. Yes. Okay. Basically. And we would rise to meet him and that like whatever you were doing, you would just like be taken up. And so if you were driving a car, like a car would crash, if you were washing dishes, the sink would be on. And so I, I don’t know if this was a thing where you or Brian, but like there would, there were the, these bumper stickers that said in case of rapture, this car will be unmanned that were like super, super popular. Oh wow. People would put them on their cars. Right. And so like this is something, the thing that I remember so vividly as a kid is that I was taught that like whatever was earthly would be left behind. (9m 19s): So not only would we like meet Jesus in the air, But we would meet Jesus in the air naked, which was like terrifying to me as a small trans child who was like, yeah, super uncomfortable in my body. And like nervous about that is very specific. Yeah. I was like, I don’t think I, I, I don’t know if I want this, but I also remember as a kid, like this vivid fear of if I couldn’t find my mother because she was like, I don’t know, outside or like wandered off in the grocery store, I was like, oh shit, I’ve been left behind my family. Did I have to tell this story because it’s so my family and so fucked up. We decided one year my grandfather was like a super, super prankster. (10m 3s): He loved practical jokes. He took April Fools very, very seriously. And so one year the entire family decided to prank him and to make him think he’d been left behind. It was an elaborate prank. So I lived right next door to my grandparents. So we set it up. We knew that every Sunday night he would get home from church and then he would go out and feed the pets. And so we set it up the both of our houses we like dropped closed where they were left the fridge door open, left the sink running. We told everyone in his church and all of the family to not answer the phone if he called. Like this was an elaborate whoa like multi-family friend. (10m 43s): And looking back on it, I feel like it was a little shady like that. That’s like a pretty cruel prank. He didn’t, he like saw someone slipping onto the back porch and it was ruined. But aw. Anyway, you know rapture, rapture thinking was really huge. And along with that, the end times, so what’s the real truth about the rapture? Like there are several different views about when the rapture will happen. There’s this kind of pre tribulation idea that like Jesus will come back, then everything will go to shit. There’s a post tribulation view that says like everything will go to shit birth and then Jesus will come back. (11m 23s): Hmm. So my tradition very much grew up with this pre tribulation view. Jesus would come back, he would snatch up the real Christians, hell would like rain on earth for a bunch of years and we would just get to skip it. I’ve heard something about a thousand years Is that, is that this or where does this a thousand years factor in? There is a thousand years. I think that this is the, like the tribulation will will last for a thousand years. Okay. That some people can get saved during that time, but that they are like still stuck. So it’s like really important that you get saved before the rapture happens so that you get to avoid all of the bad stuff. (12m 5s): And so that was really like the left behind series, right? Was that it started with a bunch of people getting taken away, but then all of these people were left to deal with the rise of the antichrist and, and the people that got saved who then were like fighting the antichrist, like still had to live through the tribulation, I guess is punishment for like not getting their act together sooner. Which also feels like dickish sketchy to me. Yeah. Antithetical to, anyway, so there’s like two main verses other than the whole of revelation, but two main verses that led people to think that there was going to be a rapture. (12m 48s): First Thessalonians four 15 through 17, which says according to the Lord’s word we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord certainly will certainly not proceed. Those who have fallen asleep for the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a loud command with the voice of the archangel and the trumpet call of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first after that we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. And then the other is from Matthew 24 37 through 40 and as were the days of Noah. So she’ll be the coming of the son of man for as in those days, which were before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving a marriage until the day that Noah entered into the ark. (13m 33s): And they knew not until the flood came and took them all away. So shall be the coming of the son of man then shall two men be in the field. One is taken, one is left. So it iss kind of like, you know, end times judgment is coming. Yeah. But the reality is that the guy who first proposed and made really popular, the rapture, the pre tribulation rapture in particular didn’t come up with that until 1827. And this is why I get mad. It’s like this is not something that was handed down from Jesus. This is a very, a relatively new understanding. His name was John Nelson Darby. He was a part of the Plymouth Brethren in England, which is why my church was so hooked on this. (14m 18s): ’cause we were part of the, that Brethren movement we had broken off. But again, like ca coming from a tradition that didn’t actually teach me the history of my own tradition, I like didn’t know that this was a unique thing that the Plymouth brethren believed. I just thought it was like the truth. Right? Which is why I think it’s so important that we know our history and where we come from. This view was then kind of spread around even more. It became really popular through the Scofield reference Bible. I remember my grandfather having that Bible and and that’s really what, what pushed this view forward. Most mainline and Catholic traditions don’t have any view of the rapture either pre or post or mid right. (15m 6s): It’s just like not a thing for them. The all of the kind of tribulation rapture ideas are almost always evangelical traditions and, and Baptist traditions. And much of what we internalize about the rapture is really modern. And it comes more from pop culture, right. From that novel or that terrible film, A Thief in The Night, which I know many youth groups were forced to watch from how Lindsay’s late Great Planet Earth and of course from the left behind series. And I think that, like for me, the thing that like sticks out for me is that in many ways the rapture is really convenient, right? (15m 46s): Yeah. It’s this idea that like real Christians are in a secret club, they’re gonna be protected from all of the shit that goes down during the end times. And our sole mission is to get as many people saved as possible so that they get snatched up to, but also it pretty much lets them off the hook for having to do anything to care about the world. We don’t have to care about creation because it’s all gonna be destroyed anyway. Right? Like, so there’s this idea that we can do whatever we want as long as we get as many people saved because like God’s gonna come back. Jesus come back, take us. And that’s gonna be that. Yeah. And we’re gonna be protected. (16m 27s): It reminds me of billionaires trying to like build spaceships to get off the planet. Like Right. It’s exactly the same. Like Jesus is our billionaire spaceship. Yeah. Yeah. Some something that sticks out to me in these as in those passage us that you read, I can see how folks who support the rapture would like point to these passage us. But like when you actually read them, like they’re kind of a little wonky. Like I don’t really know what to do with them, but they don’t actually say what the Rapt people say. Like, and this one from First Thessalonians, it’s like, it’s not saying that like the Christians go up first and then the non-Christians get left behind. It’s like the dead people go up first and then the alive people go up after them. (17m 12s): Like Yeah. And there’s also, I mean I think that like there was all of these views both in the gospels and in Paul’s letters about the fact that like Jesus’s return was imminent. Yeah. They believed that he was gonna come back before any of them died. Yeah. And clearly that was incorrect. Yeah. And so I think that there’s also this sense of people trying to make sense of what they had been taught from Jesus, what they believed about, like what Jesus’ work was and what his resurrection accomplished. That was murky. And I think that in some cases we, they just got it wrong. (17m 54s): Yeah. Like Paul definitely thought, he like says explicitly in his letters that are in the Bible that like, he’s not gonna die. ’cause he says it’s gonna come back before Paul dies. And like he was just wrong. Right. And I think that like part of the impulse of evangelicals is that they can’t actually admit that, right? Yeah. Because then they would have to say, well, there are errors in the Bible and they can’t do that. So it becomes this like, we have to then create this other thing that makes sense of this thing that we’re reading and then it just like spirals out from There. Yeah. And I think that like there’s, there is though then this other sense of like, okay, well if the rapture isn’t real, like if that was made up or that was a misguided notion, yeah. (18m 38s): There is still this sense of like, but there are going to be the end times, right? Like there’s, God’s still gonna come back and judge everyone. The world is still gonna be destroyed. Like there’s still gonna be, I don’t know, you brought up Revelation, like, so Brian, what else were you taught about the end times or the book of Revelation? Yeah, I Guess like the, this whatever sort of like thousand years things was not necessarily like maybe, or maybe not what like was connected to the rapture, like could or cannot be, but it was sort of a, you could believe that separately that there was like something about like an antichrist I guess. Like, and it was, I guess like not clear was the antichrist like a demon that was going to like, that we would be able to like see as a demon, like look sort of non-human or would it be a politician like with Brooklyn, the Antichrist or Obama, the Antichrist, like, and like insert any, you know, liberal ish politician. (19m 41s): I also know that like in my church, this was probably like less in like the main service and more just sort of like in youth group stuff. Like where it was a little bit less, you know, controlled. They were like, there was like this whole thing about Hebrew and Hebrew letters corresponding to numbers and like looking for secret messages in the Bible. And if you like, put all of these numbers together, like, or these wor like secret, there’s like sort of like there was this something about like secret messages in the Hebrew Bible that would like tell us about the future. (20m 21s): And so like end times mark of the beast 6, 6, 6, we’re all sort of floating around. But I don’t think I had a specific vision of like the world would end or like what that would look like. I do know that at some point after I left that tradition, someone was telling me that like in their tradition it was about how Earth got like restored and, but Earth became paradise. And I was like, oh, that’s not, I didn’t, I didn’t learn that. I didn’t learn that. But I’m aware That that is something that some folks believe. Yeah. I re I remember that like ATM cards were yeah. People who were worried about ATM cards being the mark of the beast for a while, right? (21m 1s): ’cause you couldn’t, you couldn’t buy or sell. Right? Yeah. That was part of it that without the market of the beast, you couldn’t buy or sell. And people were anxious about ATM cards. Now everyone’s got the fricking a m cards. But now I think some people are like, oh, well the vaccine cards are the mark of the beast because unvaccinated people are being discriminated against, which is just ridiculous. Anyway. Yeah. So I I I mean, I think almost all of our views of the end times come from really poor readings of the book of Revelation. We have to understand that like the book of Revelation was written under Empire and under occupation by a person who had been exiled to an island and left on his own for already like, for sedition. (21m 43s): So of course he can’t come out and write a street against Rome and the Emperor without getting himself killed. And so of course he like writes about this vision that he has. And so everything in the book of Revelation is not this like wonky ridiculous prophecy of some future where there’s gonna be dragons and four horsemen and the horror of Babylon, right? Yeah. It’s all like coded language for what he was already experiencing, what they were already experiencing. And when you imagine being from an oppressed and marginalized community and you look around and you’re like, yeah, we’re like already in the end times. (22m 25s): Yeah. The world is already ending. I’ve been hearing a lot of like indigenous activists talking about like, the apocalypse has already come. Like we are in it. We’ve been living in it. And the ways that the, the world is being treated, creation is being treated is like part of the end times part of this narrative. And that makes a lot of sense to me. I too did not grow up with a tradition that said like the earth was gonna be restored. Like no, it was, it was the, the earth doesn’t matter. The earth is gonna burn. So like we can do whatever we want to it. We can pillage and destroy and carbon emissions, et cetera, because God’s gonna destroy the earth. (23m 8s): But what we actually see, if you really read Revelation, even if you do read it as more of a future thinking prophetic book, and in Paul’s letters too, we actually get this sense of restoration, right? That, that it’s not that earth is gonna be destroyed and that we’re gonna go to heaven. That actually the, the idea is that we’re going to get a new, potentially a new earth, but that like earth is still in existence. We don’t actually, our, our eternal dwelling is in this restored earth, not in some heaven far away. (23m 50s): Which was mind blowing to me when I learned that and read that as an adult. Hmm. I will say, I know people have a lot of feelings about NT Wright. I think that some of his scholarship is not great, but his book surprised my hope is actually really, really brilliantly beautiful. And I, I wanna share some things from that book because I, it, it has really impacted my view of what happens at the end. And so one of the things that he says is we need to remind ourselves that throughout the Bible, not least in the Psalms, God’s coming judgment is a good thing. It’s something to be celebrated and long for yearned over. It causes people to shout for joy and the trees at the field to clap their hands. (24m 32s): Because in a world of systemic injustice, bullying, violence, arrogance and oppression, the thought that there might come a day when the wicked are firmly put in their place and the poor and weak are given their due is the best news there can be faced with a world in rebellion, a world full of exploitation and wickedness. A good God must be a god of judgment. Hmm. And I’m like, ugh. Right. Yeah. Like this is, this is it. Right. And I think that again, this is a reminder that the Bible is written by oppressed and marginalized people living in context of oppression. And so when we’re talking about judgment, we are talking about those things. It’s, it’s not for like rich, white, politically powerful Republican evangelicals to be like, those gays are gonna get theirs. (25m 19s): It’s about no, actually the people that are like squandering the earth and are being oppressive are gonna get theirs. And like that’s a good thing. The other thing that, that NT Wright talks about a lot And I think is, is really evidenced in the writings of Paul, is that part of the, part of the responsibility of being a Christian, being a follower of Jesus, of believing in the restoration of all things, is that it puts a responsibility on us to be a part of that restoration and a part of that restoration as far as like climate change goes a part of that restoration as far as like art and beauty goes a part of that restoration as far as justice and political systems and, and making things right that like a responsibility isn’t to get a bunch of other people saved. (26m 15s): So we get taken away in the great snatch, it’s actually to like do the work of being a restorative person. And that when we do that work, like we should be the most art filled and beauty filled and joy filled. Because that’s, that’s the, that’s the work, right? That we’re making something beautiful and and amazing. And that, like, one of the things that he also says is like part of getting used to living in the post Easter world, part of getting used to letting Easter change your life, your attitudes, your thinking, your behavior is getting used to the cosmology that is now unveiled. Heaven and earth are made for each other and at certain points they intersect and interlock. (26m 60s): Jesus is the ultimate such point. We as Christians are meant to be such points derived from him. The spirit, the sacraments and the scriptures are given. So the double life of Jesus, both heavenly and earthly can become ours as well already in the present. His idea is that like heaven and earth now are already acting upon one another. They’re interlocked that the work is overlapping. That sometimes we can see it and sometimes we can’t, but like we’re already living in this end times because of Jesus’s resurrection. That to me is a really beautiful thing. I know that that’s maybe a little wooey for you, Brian. Yeah, But my jaw’s dropped. It’s so beautiful. (27m 40s): Like, I, it’s a little right, like, I don’t know. I don’t know. Like, I don’t know. But I, there is something really that speaks to me about that. And I think to me like this then makes the idea of the end times the rapture, God’s judgment. Like none of that is scary anymore. It’s actually beautiful and hopeful and empowering and impactful and like, helps me to navigate the world in a different way, in a, in a more joy-filled way, but also a, I think a more engaged way. And that to me is, is really, really exciting. I love It. I love it. So next week we’re gonna turn our attention to Satan and get ready y’all. (28m 21s): ’cause I have 14 pages of notes. We are gonna go on a journey. I can’t wait to do that with you. That is all for this week’s episode. I hope you enjoyed it. Remember, if you would like to listen to the whole series, you can go to Queer Theology dot com slash Scary Things and we’ll compile all those in one place. Also, a reminder that we can only do this show and the other work that we do at Queer Theology dot com because of support from folks just like you. So if you would be interested in supporting this work to help it be sustainable for us, we would cherish that support. We notice each and every dollar, you can go to Queer Theology dot com slash community to join the community. That’s one way to support. (29m 1s): Or if you just wanna kick us some bucks, go to patreon.com/ Queer Theology. Thanks again and we will see you next week. So we’ll talk to you very soon. The Queer Theology podcast is just one of many things that we do at Queer Theology dot com, which provides resources, community, and inspiration for L-G-B-T-Q Christians and straight cisgender supporters. To dive into more of the action, visit us at Queer Theology dot com. You can also connect with us online on Facebook, Twitter, Tumblr, and Instagram. We’ll see you next week. The post Throwback: Scary Things appeared first on Queer Theology.

We’re joined on the podcast this week by Adam MacLean (@adammacattack) who is the founder of PostShame.org and #PostShame, online tools designed to help people examine their past for things they worry might leak on the internet, and then proactively share those stories themselves. By doing so, they transform these stories into narratives of strength and leadership, offering support to others struggling with similar challenges. He is also the host of the podcast “Find Your Light with Adam MacLean”, where he navigates difficult conversations around shame, leadership, and self-acceptance. In these discussions, Adam integrates his expertise in holding space for others, helping listeners work through challenges related to the body, mind, and spirit—particularly within the realms of sacred intimacy. In this conversation, Brian and Adam delve into the complexities of shame, particularly within the LGBTQ community. They explore the concept of post-shame, the impact of the internet on personal narratives, and the distinction between guilt and shame. Adam shares his personal journey, including his experiences with spirituality and 12-step programs, and how these intersect with his queerness. The discussion also touches on the significance of rituals in creating meaning and community, culminating in reflections on marriage and personal transformations. In this conversation, Adam and Brian explore the complexities of shame, relationships, and the impact of online culture on personal identity. They discuss the PostShame process, which helps individuals confront their pasts and navigate the challenges of public scrutiny. The dialogue delves into the nuances of sexuality, consent, and the importance of context in conversations about intimacy. They also touch on the experiences of men in today’s society, the distinction between erotic and pornographic expressions, and the significance of gender affirmation in personal journeys. Takeaways Dissolving shame is essential for self-acceptance. The internet amplifies the experience of shame. Guilt is about actions, while shame is about self. Community plays a crucial role in healing from shame. Rituals can help create meaning in our lives. Personal narratives can be transformed through sharing. Spirituality can be redefined outside traditional structures. Queerness and theology can coexist harmoniously. Self-expression is a radical act of love. Marriage can mark a significant shift in relationships. We can only make commitments in our relationships. Online shaming is not evenly distributed. The PostShame process helps individuals reclaim their narratives. Navigating shame involves understanding context and consent. Sexuality and shame are often intertwined in complex ways. The distinction between erotic and pornographic is crucial. Healing can involve somatic practices and intimacy. Men often struggle with loneliness and connection. Trans experiences challenge traditional notions of gender. Dissolving shame is a shared mission for many.   Chapters 03:05 – The Birth of Post-Shame and Personal Journey 07:11 – Understanding Guilt vs. Shame 10:09 – The Role of the Internet in Shaming 11:45 – Revisiting 12-Step Programs and Spirituality 14:55 – The Intersection of Queerness and Theology 19:19 – Rituals and Their Significance in Community 21:57 – Personal Reflections on Marriage and Rituals 31:46 – Interrogating Language and Relationships 33:14 – Moving Beyond Shame 34:28 – The PostShame Process 36:46 – The Impact of Online Shaming 38:07 – Navigating Sexuality and Shame 39:40 – Context and Consent in Conversations 42:46 – The Distinction Between Erotic and Pornographic 47:34 – Sacred Intimacy and Healing 50:27 – Male Loneliness and Connection 56:12 – Trans Experiences and Gender Affirmation   Resources:. Learn more about Adam at https://www.postshame.org/adammaclean Join our online community at  Sanctuary Collective Community   If you want to support the Patreon and help keep the podcast up and running, you can learn more and pledge your support at patreon.com/queertheology This transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors or omissions. (9s): Welcome to the Queer Theology Podcast. I’m Brian G Murphy. And I’m father Shannon, T l Kearns. We’re the co-founders of Queer Theology dot com and your hosts from Genesis, revelation. The Bible declares good news to LGBTQ plus people, and we want to show you how Tuning in each week on Sunday for conversations about Christianity, queerness and transness, and how they can enrich one another. We’re glad you’re here. You all are in for a treat. Today we have Adam McLean joining us for a conversation about lots of things. The big one, the center of it is shame and it’s inverse, or, well, I guess we’ll find out if it’s in the inverse pride. I know that as L-G-B-T-Q people, almost all of us probably struggle with shame in some way, shape or form. (56s): And I’m really excited to have this conversation with you, Adam, to bring sort of a new light to the various ways shame shows up in our lives and in particular in this new millennium. So you’re the founder of the hashtag PostShame, the Post Shame org website. You’ve also got a podcast, Find Your Light with Adam MacLean, where you have these difficult conversations around shame and leadership and self-acceptance. And I know from your work that a big part of that is developing tools to help people examine the things in their past that they might worry about, and then proactively share those stories themselves and, and doing so transform the stories and their narratives around those stories. And so like, wow, such important, I would even call it holy work that you’re doing. (1m 42s): I love, I love the idea of calling it holy work. My long journey around being okay with using words like secret and holy and divine. I’ve, I’ve arrived in my forties being like, those are okay. Words to say. So I’m really having that, that’s that, that you’re, that you’re doing the type of work you’re doing and, and you’re stitching together all these sometimes disparate subjects. But it turns out we’re all, we’re all going in the same direction. We’re all trying to focus on the same thing. And dissolving shame turns out to be, I think, the great work of our time. Yeah, it’s been so misapplied, it’s been so misutilized, and I think in a lot of sacred spaces, especially like churches, sometimes it can be so weaponized and how cool that you’re leading a movement of people who are kind of squaring their faith and their sexuality and making it make sense. (2m 40s): So thank you for the work that you’re doing. Well, You’re welcome. Thanks for being here. So you kind of keyed us into perhaps like a little bit of your backstory when you said you’re recently arriving to this place where it feels comfy to describe your work as as holy or sacred. And so can you share a little bit about your background that maybe made those words for a time being like not feel so safe or comfortable or accurate? Right. Well, I’ll start with The Birth of Post shame.org. I wanted to run for office. And in 2016, after the first time that Hillary won more votes than Trump, just a reminder, she won more votes, but she wasn’t allowed to become president. And I was like, the world’s on fire. (3m 20s): It’s time. I’m just gonna have to run for office. So I started to do opposition research on myself and assemble a team and like put things together. And I realized that I had all these naked images of me on the internet, some consensual, some non-consensual, and this was something I needed to deal with. And during the process of trying to figure out how to reconcile all that and make it so I could run for office, I realized that a bunch of millennials and Gen Z folks were kind of opting out of politics writ large because the internet is such a scary place and your whole past gets piled onto the internet. And then it’s just this scary place to kind of try to be a human. And yeah, I know. Yeah, the internet’s a scary place. (4m 1s): So I started in what I really thought was a very secular endeavor, you know, kind of coping with online shaming how who gets shamed for what and why online. And the, you know, the conversation essentially became what is shameful. And I was like, oh gosh, yeah. I don’t think being gay is shameful at all, but that’s because I’ve had this like, you know, evolving life where as a teenager, okay, quick, quick, quick story time. Go back to like, me as a teenager, I grew up Episcopalian in Buffalo, New York, and I was going to confirmation class because my Jewish friends all had bar and Bat Mitzvahs. (4m 48s): And I was like, that sounds like an amazing party. I don’t understand why I don’t get one of those. And then my friends at, at the Epi Episcopal Church were like, well, you can get confirmed. And I was like, do we get to have a Bar mitzvah? And they were like, not exactly, but you know, go get confirmed and you know, we can have a party. And so I start teaching the confirmation classes and the person teaching them was like, all right, go home and please get your baptismal certificate and bring it in. ’cause we need that, you know, paperwork to, to do the confirmation. So I go home And I say to my mom and dad, I need my baptismal certificate. And they were like, Ugh, about that. (5m 28s): And I was like, what do you mean? And they’re like, so, you know, they’re like, of course. And I remember this conversation vividly because it was the first time I was confronted with like God as paperwork. Like, I was like, what do you mean? And they said so about that, they said, of course you’re one of God’s children. Of course God loves you. And I was like, what is this preamble? And they’re like, but you weren’t like officially baptized. You know, we baptized you in the bathtub and like, if you need to get anointed with some oil, like we can totally ask, you know, father John at the Invisible Church to do that for you. But like, you weren’t like officially baptized. There wasn’t like a baptism. (6m 10s): And I was like, really? Okay. So I go back to the confirmation class and I’m like, I don’t have a baptismal certificate. And they were like, whoa, okay, so we’re gonna have to do all that. You’re gonna have to get baptized. And I was like, what has changed? Like what? Like, like what has changed? And they’re like, well, you just, you have to be baptized. I’m like, no, really what is different there? There’s no way that anything is actually materially different. And as my mom and dad who were like, I guess trying to be as caring as they could, and what they knew was about to be kind of a dramatic situation, they were like, God loves you. And I was like, yeah. So I’m set. Yeah, I’m good. Yeah. (6m 50s): I, I I’m, I’m already taking care of this, this ceremony isn’t going to change anything. Yeah. And now I’ve, and then I was like, I don’t think this confirmation’s gonna change much of anything either. And then I was like, huh. And that began my like searching. Yeah. So sorry, this was a lot of story time to say like, I feel very lucky that I had this early experience. We’re kind of poking holes in the power structure was like part of my upbringing. I felt really lucky to get to kind of ask the question, like, who gets to decide my spiritual journey? And it turns out it’s me. So back to shaming writ large, like what is shameful? (7m 34s): You know, morality’s important. People always ask, what could you not be Post Shame about? And I’m like, you could try to be Post Shame about pedophilia and murder. You could try. You’re not going to get anyone on your side. No one’s going to like join you. But when you have to come out, when you say, I’ve lived this life and my sexuality does not square with my religion. And then you finally say, but I can’t do this any other way, I’m gay. I have to come out. And then you realize, oh God, there was nothing to be ashamed of anyway. I have to teach the religious leaders of being gay is okay. And so Post Shame, any coming out story, which we’ll talk about more, but any coming out story is a way to tell the power structures. (8m 17s): No, no, no. I was always holy, I was always cared for, I was always held, And I’m gonna tell you how this is gonna go. Yeah. And I, And I may, I think there’s a difference, right between feeling like being ashamed of something and feeling regret or remorse or guilt, right? Like there are things that I’ve done that have been hurtful that I wish I didn’t do that I could bet I would take back. And the, the challenge in this not be like consumed by shame and but to be like, I can regret that I can make amends, I can apologize, I can improve, I do better in the future. But like, I don’t have to be captive to shame just because I like did something bad bad. So I think there’s also like, what can you not be Post Shame about? (8m 58s): It’s like, well, you can, there’s lots of things you can be Post Shame about just as long as, and that’s different from like sometimes the reconciliation or repair that might need to happen. Exactly. Well, you know, we, we all stand in the, in the light. I was about to say, we stand in the shadow, But we actually stand in the light of Brene Brown. Yeah, yeah. And Brene Brown has these, you know, amazing distinctions between guilt and shame. That shame is something we actually feel about ourselves. And guilt is something we feel about an action. So when you are unkind to someone, absolutely, you should feel guilty about it. When you break the rules that you knew you were breaking, you should feel guilty about it because like, like that’s something you’re gonna have to figure out. (9m 39s): Yeah. But when should shame be applied? You’re right. And the internet is the sharpest, double-edged sword humanity is ever invented because the swiftness with which we are able to publicly shame someone is something humans have never seen before and is like completely incomprehensible to our lizard brains. And just the internet writ large can feel very scary because of what so many people are describing as mob mentality and cancel culture. I really don’t think anyone actually gets canceled. I think the genesis of cancel culture comes from trying to hold people to account, which is something that the internet has actually helped and hastened in many ways, but then in other ways it’s just provided a platform for shamelessness and people to say, you know, middle fingers up, I don’t care what anyone thinks, I’m just gonna keep speaking my mind. (10m 29s): Which in some cases is really helpful, but it depends on who you’re making your enemy in that scenario. Yeah. More, more on That’s a larger distinction. Yeah, actually. And because also the way that power comes into function or like the, the, the most powerful people doing like the most harm, like sort of like rise above that, whereas like marginalized people, small platforms, individuals can like really have their lives up. I just like, I think about people who like JK Rowling like turns the ire of her, like masses on. And so like JK Rowling’s, like not getting canceled, but like, I wish she would, but like, but she like picks on like a random trans woman and like their lives get destroyed. Right? Like, and so that’s like for like for nothing, for like, for being a trans woman on the internet. (11m 12s): So it’s just, yeah. It’s a mess. Yeah. So post PostShame, I would say is really committed to examining who gets shamed for what and why. Yeah. And who, who is, you know, having a hard time on the internet. So I love that you brought up just very simply just saying marginalized people reminds me that like, and sorry, and back to your earlier question of like my journey of being okay with words, like holy and sacred and divine and all this stuff. Yeah. I remember going into 12 step rooms, I would say in like my late twenties searching, wondering, you know, and then them saying, you know, you’ve gotta surrender and you’re gonna have to, you know, reckon your relationship with God and everything. And I was like, why is God involved? (11m 53s): I just wanna to figure out if I should stop drinking. I just want to figure out how to deal with my money problems. Like, I was in those 12 step rooms feeling like I was trying to tackle something concrete. And they were like, well, God is here. And I was like, what? What are they doing? Anyway, the AA and the 12 step programs were invented around a kind of, and Holly Whitaker talks in this, about this in her book, quit Like a Woman, you know, these programs were invented to kind of bring a certain type of man to his knees. It really was for a kind of apex predator in a hierarchical society to kind finally submit and realize that he wasn’t in charge and he needed to, you know, for lack of a better imagery, you know, get down on his knees and be humble in front of God. (12m 38s): And, you know, surrender to God. And Holly Whitaker says like, what are you talking about? Queer folks, women, people of color. They’ve been on their knees in a lot of different contexts in this lifetime. They have been, felt like they’ve been pushed down so many times. She really wanted, Holly really wanted to, like, from what I understand, kind of like invert this kind of, I must be humble before God energy, you know? And instead say, no, I wanna be self-expressed. I wanna be fully myself. I mean, the reason I stopped drinking was because Holly Whitaker told me by drinking, I was letting the man kind of keep me down. I was letting this like capitalist spending weird. (13m 19s): Like, you know, I think alcohol’s gonna end up going the way of cigarettes. Like people will just be like, it’s bad for you. Yeah. Like, you shouldn’t, you shouldn’t do it. It’s really bad. And so it’s like, it’s like my, I’m not, I’m not textbook sober, but like, I don’t drink as a kind of radical act of self-love, not as a humble, humble, quite the opposite. I mean, I don’t drink kind of self righteously to be like, yeah, you know, who else doesn’t drink Brene Brown? You know, I want to be like Brene Brown. So like, that’s how I got myself together. So, yeah. Anyway, so now I kind of go into 12 step rooms with a different reverence being like, if you need to be brought to your knees, then go down to your knees. (14m 3s): And if you need to be lifted up, there’s this room of really nice people who are also kind of willing to lift you up. Yeah. So that’s how I kind of reckon all that. Yeah. One of my friends in, in sobriety says like, one of the sort of like catchphrases for God, for folks that are like, maybe don’t believe it, like in a traditional understanding of God is like a group of drunks since we’re like being, being like held by a group of drunks, being like accountable to a group of drunks, like at the end of the day. And I just sort of like, oh, like, that’s like a God I can believe in. Like, like, and just to see the ways which like my friends in 12 step programs, like show up for one another and care for one another and give one another. And like even the ones who are like, like selflessness sometimes, but not in a, like I am nothing sort of way, but sort of in a, like, we are all in this together sort of way is really beautiful. (14m 51s): Totally. And that’s also when, and I mean, just the title of this podcast, Queer Theology, you know, has been, it’s been, you know, popping around in my head for, for weeks and months now, because I’m literally just like, where am I in like stitching together my queerness and my, you know, willingness to interrogate theology. I’ve, I’m struggling with the word sin these days because I’m just like, Oh, I’ll sell you on sin. But I just, I’m like, I’m gonna use your God as a group of drunks analogy, which I’m realizing the joke there is the acronym group of drunks. (15m 32s): Yeah. Okay. Because I’m like, the drunks is, I’m like, drunks is so pejorative. Why, why, why is that what we’re talking about? But anyway, yeah, equipping a quippy of acronym always helps. And I’m just kind of like, well, it’s, it’s their sin that brought them together and their sin is what’s, what’s helping them see through this life and the fact that community is going to be the only way through it. I, I just can’t get on board with sin capital s and one God removes it. I just, I’m not there. It’s not my practice. It’s not my jam. Is there something you want to sell me on? Is there, is there, I mean, I love sin in the context of like BDSM and like, like investigating your shadow. (16m 17s): So like I’m all in on that, but you cannot, when I go to church with my boyfriend, he’s a, an onic episcopalian. And when I sit in that church, there are certain, some of the prayers that I can’t say because I’m Oh yeah, no, I’m not gonna tell you on that version of sin. Okay. I, because I, like, I went through it on my journey. I went through a period of time where I was like, there’s no sin, sins not real. And it was actually sort of like original sin that I came back around to first. And I was, but like not in the weird Christian way, right? That like, I was born like in a hospital in America that like using medical technology that uses like rare minerals that were harvested like on other continents that create war and strife and poverty. (17m 3s): Right? And so like, whoa, Trump, whoa. That is, that is such a butterfly effect that like the original sin is that rare earth mining was necessary for your birth. And that’s on you, bro. That’s so it Interesting. No, it’s, it’s Not, it’s not That’s a thing though. It’s like, it’s not on me. It is, it is a fact. Right? I like, I like grew up in America that is like the, the fortunes that we experience as American citizens, like is held up by the American military, by white supremacy. Like we’re both like white men. Like I actually like, And I, that doesn’t mean I did something wrong or that I’m shameful, but like, I actually cannot get away from like systemic injustices that happen in the world that I play a part of. (17m 45s): Like, there just like is no, you know, there’s no consumption under capitalism. Like that doesn’t mean that I’ve done something wrong necessarily. And it does definitely doesn’t mean that like a god up in the sky is going to like, erase it all and make it all better. But like there are in fact like ways in which like, we can’t help but hurt people or benefit from like harmful things despite our like best efforts and intentions. And like it does, it feels like until you And I, yeah, I don’t, I don’t don’t actually call it sin, right? Like I would just call it like systemic injustice. But like, I do think that there’s like concept of like, there actually are that there actually are like forces in the world that like act upon us and if we just pretend that they’re not there, we actually cannot dismantle them. (18m 32s): And so like being able to like name those in some way, And I like personally wouldn’t use the word sin because it’s like all wrapped up in like weird baggage. But like, I do think that like there’s an angle in which like yeah. Like sometimes like, do cause harm or are part of harmful systems. That’s really interesting. So, so help me out. This is like, for, for the listeners out there, this is when the guest is cheating, right? This is when the guest is like, goes in and is like, okay, well this is free therapy, this is opportunity. So, so I, okay, so I’m standing in the pew and all, all these prayers that have been cultivated over centuries, right? (19m 13s): Yeah, yeah. Like, it’s not like these are unthoughtful. So people who really thought they were onto something writing these books are really trying to like guide society, you know, like let’s, let’s assume best intentions for most of this stuff. Yeah, yeah. Especially the Episcopalians because they are like so inoffensive. Yeah. I, I’m, I’m so, I’m so down with the early acceptance of gay marriage in the Episcopal church. Anyway, so I’m standing in the pew And I’m saying these prayers and it has to do with sin. So, so help me. So like I, I’m now like blanking on like, yeah, I literally was an acolyte. So like, how can I not remember these prayers? But like, you know, so then what am I saying when I’m like, God would take away the sins of the world. (19m 54s): I, I, yeah. I don’t know how to square energetically, how can I, how can I endure these prayers? Because really I stand there And I like purse my lips and sometimes it’s also like a recorded telecast in this very fancy St. Thomas Episcopal church. Yeah. Yeah. Which Is fabulous in, in Manhattan. I mean, I know that they are not using certain video clips because I’m like rolling my eyes in a way that are like, like it’s, it must be distracting sometimes. So, so gimme a recommendation. Yeah. How do I ride that out? It depends on how you define the word God, right? Like, if God is a like man in the sky, that is like waving his hand over the world and sort of like casting some magic spell to like excise the sin. (20m 39s): Like Yeah. Eye roll. You’re right. You’re turning me off. Yeah. Nonstop. Yeah. Yeah. Eye roll, eye roll, eye roll, Right? Like, and so like, and, and, but, and here’s the thing, like, I’m not really here to defend the Episcopal church. Like the, the problem with in my, in my, in my outsider is you a lot of like the mainline Christian denominations, like it’s really about tradition, right? And so like, they, they care a lot maybe about like the world, but like, I don’t know if it actually is like thoughtful as you’re giving them credit to. A lot of it is like, we’ve had these buildings for a long time and we sing these pretty hymns and we have this beautiful sounding organ, which your boyfriend plays beautifully. Like, and also like, we just like the way that it sounds and we like the community and like these words just sort of like give us like comfort because like our parents and our grandparents and their grandparents have been saying it. (21m 27s): And like, there’s actually I think like not a lot of self-reflection going on both, especially like amongst your everyday parishioner. It’s like, I think that could be the sense of your sort of like, I do we actually even believe these words, right? But there’s, I think there’s a word, a way in which you could reframe all of that, but like, also like if, if Episcopalianism like doesn’t do it for you, like go find your piece elsewhere. Oh, work. Okay. Well quick shout out to Colin, my fabulous boyfriend who, who came up with this idea that I, I should be on the podcast and, and, and really believed in the cross section of Queer Theology and Post Shame as like, you know, topics that, that really support and magnify one another. (22m 8s): And Colin is a fabulous, fabulous organist and very talented in that regard. And I have to say, the sermons lately, it’s like always some visiting fancy person from England have been great. So this is something I think is also different in my forties. And on quick, another story time. When I was a teenager, when I was in acolyte, my family was friends with the priest church family as well. I don’t feel like naming them, but like, anyway, we were friends with them. They had a deaf son who I was friends with. I felt really lucky to have like a deaf bestie when I was a kid. (22m 50s): There was so much, it was so relentlessly confronting. One of the things he used to do was if he was getting yelled at by his parents, he would cover his eyes. And I thought that was so funny that, that that, that they couldn’t sign to him. Anyway, so that’s just, that’s, this is just imagery is just so reminding me of my childhood. Anyway, they went away to something in Maine when I was like 13 and they invited me to go with them, and the priest was preaching like a guest preacher at a church. And I have no idea what the sermon was about, but after the service, I mean, I’m 13 in this story and Father John comes over to me and says, so what did, what did you think of the sermon? (23m 36s): And I was like, what do you mean? And he is like, well, what did you think about it? And I was like, I I mean, good job. Like what? And he was like, did I, did I do okay? And it was again, One of these wild thing for a pastor to say to a 13-year-old or anyone really, he Was nervous. Yeah, I know, I know he was nervous, but like, again, I felt really lucky that I had these like early experiences of like seeing the quote unquote man behind the curtain. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Where I was like, oh, you’re just a man. Yeah, yeah. And you’re, and think about it, he’s writing this sermon in the nineties. I mean, he’s not getting help from little Clippy or Chachi pt, you know? Yeah. He has to like write this sermon on his own. (24m 16s): Yeah. Like find these ideas from within himself, try to, you know, explain this message. I feel like nowadays I, God, I could really work with cha bt on like an amazing Post Shame sermon. It would be like so spectacular. And I would love to be like stitched together my disdain of the word sin and the, the parsing out the difference between guilt and shame and like, how do we do this with the context of Episcopalianism, you know, St. Thomas Episcopal invite me to do a guest, a guest sermon one day anyway. So it just that that’s what’s on my mind. Yeah. I mean, so like, I, well I’ll plug a research really quickly and then, we’ll, I wanna get back to Post Shame because like, so I think that there is something really powerful about like rituals. (24m 58s): And so I think that for like many people, they like haven’t taken the time, and this is like not a judgment anyway, they haven’t taken the time to like create their own or to find their own or to find their own unique meaning in the ones they’ve inherited. And so they just sort of like go through the motions and it’s like there is something comfortable about like, singing the same Christmas songs every year, or like these prayers that we always say together. And like, even if you don’t necessarily believe in the content of it, there’s like something about like the process of doing it together with these people who you do care about that feels comforting in some way. Connective. And so like, what we really encourage people to do is like, like create your own rituals or like re like really understand this sort of like radical roots of Christian or Jewish rituals or like, like baptism and communion actually have these like really, really powerful radical roots that like kind of get lost in like two millennia later. (25m 48s): And so like find your, either find your own way in your own way into existing ones or create your own so that you have like way, a way to sort of like tap into and remind yourself of like your deepest values and to connect with like the people who you are in community with and your, your values or your higher power. And we have a whole workshop on that. I mean, you make, you make a really good point. And I, I want to say, I mean, I’m not like anti getting baptized, but the way that I would want to be baptized is like, I would invite every single person I know in New York, we would fill the whole church. It would be like wedding level invite list. Okay. Yeah. And like, I would stand at the front of this church and strip completely naked. (26m 31s): Yeah. And like walk, walk into a pool and be like, if, if I’m going to declare the way that I like, want to be involved in this communion of like, just the, I don’t know, like again, someone would have to help me stitch together the mission statement of this baptism. But like I describe this to my friends about what I would, what would be the bar for me to like agree to be baptized into the church. And they’re like, Adam, you’re describing a drag show. You’re describing your own drag performance. And like that is not exactly like, I don’t know if the Episcopal church is like eager to get the Adam McLean version of baptism. (27m 11s): Yeah. Like there’s other places like you And I should do that in a park. Yeah. Like, like we should have the, the Queer Theology, tm, Adam McLean being baptized for pride, like fully, fully nude, immersed with like the most beautiful prayers and like sacred. Do you see how animated Yeah. Yeah. I’m here for it. It’s like totally queer and radical who wants to be baptized, but just like the word baptism, it’s Yeah, yeah, yeah. I guess if I really care I have to do a little bit more research. But you’re saying you have resources on this, are there like back episodes that are about baptism specific? Oh Yeah. We, we, we have a workshop called ri no not about baptism specifically, But we have, we have, we talk about baptism in it, but it’s, it’s a workshop called Rituals for Resistance and Resilience. (27m 56s): It’s that Queer Theology com slash rituals. Thank you for plugging that. Yeah, that’s awesome. Totally. When I, so I got both religiously and legally married like a little over a year ago on my 15th. Congratulations. You had your one year anniversary. Yeah, It was like a few months ago at this point. Congratulations. Congratulations. Which is wild. Congratulations. We got married on our 15th anniversary and so people keep asking me like about my one year and I’m like, it doesn’t, it feels like my 16th year, not my, my first year for sure. But, but so to get back to that, people were like in the lead up to it. Were like, are you so excited? It’s gonna, like everything’s gonna change. Or like in the, in the immediate aftermath of like, oh, like how’s married life? And I was like, I don’t know, like the same, we’ve been together for 15 years. (28m 39s): And so there was, I remember there was like this part of me that was like, nothing is like actually like ontologically different about me or our relationship. Kinda like your experience of like what with the baptism, specificate, like what has changed? And then I was like in couples therapy and also writing my book about non-monogamy and like writing about rituals. And I was like, we like, we like we did do it and like we could have not done it. And Like there’s like one way to look at it where like nothing is different. And then there’s like another way to look at it where like, I guess like actually something like is different And I can’t, And I hate this ’cause like before I was married I was like, oh, these married people are just like, they don’t understand. (29m 25s): I’ve been together for 14 years. It’s the same. And, And I don’t necessarily think that like you have to get married, but like there is like some way in which that like putting 200 of our friends and families and loved ones together in a room and like for us Humble wrack. Like It Was, it was taco, it was a taco buffet. So like, No, no, I don’t need the details. I’m just so happy for you. The 200 folks were like, hell yes. Yeah. So that’s great. And we like signed this katuba and like some rituals, right? And it was like, oh, like maybe like something magical did sort of happen and like, I don’t really, it’s like on the way, like in the logical part of my brain, like mostly atheist, part of my brain is like nothing happened. (30m 10s): Like it just was this, but, and then there’s like, so there is like some sort of woo that was like, I don’t know, I think we like actually did sort of like conjure some shift. And so I think whether it’s marriage or baptism or conversion or divorce, like there are these like moment moments that you can like mark with meaning, and you don’t, you, you could just sort of like coast through them, but like if you choose to, I think you can like call into something like bigger and deeper if you would, if you would like, I think that is probably the most adult most thoughtful way to even question this context entirely. Yeah. It’s like you don’t have to use the word god in your 12 step meeting. (30m 53s): You don’t have to say the prayers at the church, you can just like hang out, you know, during that part of the service. Yeah. But to, you’re, you’re literally offering people In this conversation the idea that you can check in with your own rituals and your own ceremonies and then Exactly. Things are exactly the same. But something also did shift because of declarations, because of language. What is more beautiful than signing the katuba. Yeah. Like it is so exciting to, to, I mean all that script, I, it just like, I mean I want one Colin, don’t listen, don’t listen to this part Also, we’re not Jewish, but Well Depends on how find it. (31m 35s): He’s I can have a good, That’s a whole other episode. That’s a whole other episode. But I, I think that is where I’m at with, I don’t wanna say with with the sacred, with the divine. I am so game to interrogate how our language and our thoughts shape the world we live in. And that all we can do is make commitments in our relationships. Like that’s like all we can do. Like yes, we can build things in the physical world, but they don’t actually do anything until the relationships were in interact with them. (32m 18s): Yeah. I don’t know, do I, do I believe that? Totally. Do I believe that statement? I’m kind of thinking about some crystals that I have on my altar at home right now And I’m like, no, those inanimate objects are lovely, but it’s because of who gave them to me or where I was when I got them, or like what they symbolize and are reminding me of. I dunno. Yeah, that’s a baptism. There’s magic, but like if crystals work better for you, like stick with the crystals. You, you Adam. And also like you listening, like I, we feel like we constantly say like, part of our work is to help people reclaim the religious traditions they come from. And part of them, part of our work is to help people be like, oh, actually this like no longer fits me. I don’t need this to them. Like, leave healthfully. (32m 59s): Okay, put a phone mute. But I, I appreciate that you keep turning the tables and becoming the interviewer. It’s clear that you have a podcast. This always happens when you get two podcasters together, they start interviewing one another. But, so I wanna, I wanna circle back to like Post Shame and like the actual work of like Moving Beyond Shame for folks. Like how do you like guide people through that? Great. So Post Shame dot org is an online tool to help people find something in their past that they worry would leak on the internet. They leak it on their own with context and they share a story of strength and leadership that shows they’re ready to help people deal with something similar. It’s a six step process. The company as it were, is really a consultancy where you get to work with me on what it is that you are afraid will leak on the internet. (33m 44s): These could be people preparing to run for office. These can be people in a large business organization that are trying to go from that SVP level to that CEO level. A very crude description of it that some people like in the business world is like training for how to make the internet like your bitch. Like how to make the internet work for you. Because when a board is considering who is going to be able to be in that kind of like hot seat that like relentless focus seat, they want someone who’s not only like internet savvy, but like already kind of mindd their past and looked in their closet, so to speak, to find the things that, you know might derail them being CEO. (34m 25s): My favorite part of PostShame is that it’s actually this amazing conversation starter and context to remember that online shaming is always gendered and racialized. Online shaming is not evenly distributed amongst, you know, what you look like or your social strata. And it’s like everyone’s favorite discussion entryway into declaring how dissatisfied they are with how the internet works. Like no one is enjoying cancel culture. It just isn’t, it just isn’t going well. And, and everyone it turns out has a story where they have more sympathy for someone who they don’t feel got a fair shake on the internet. (35m 7s): On Find Your Light. With Adam MacLean my podcast, we kind of look at a person like me and my guest in act two of the podcast, look at a person who’s had a public shaming or a downfall and kind of imagine what their life would be like if they had had access to Post Shame and utilize this tool instead of going through their scandal just like clumsily. And it turns out so many people are like, oh, there’s so much nuance to these stories. We wish this person would’ve just like, come clean sooner. Because it turns out it’s not that bad. And so many people have gone through this. This i I just, I it’s my favorite way of, of going through the world. It’s, it’s how I slow down the internet in my mind. (35m 48s): And it turns out when I offer offer it to people, either as a service or a context or just like a cocktail party conversation, they are calmer. Yeah. It is, it is a mechanism to say internet shaming is so fast. I’ve also, one of the ways I quote unquote help people is sometimes I see someone going through an internet shit storm. Either I know them or like I don’t agree with what, you know, the headline is of what they’ve gone through. But I still reach out to them and say, I’m sorry you’re going through an internet shit storm. They’re really scary, aren’t they? And people are like, thank you. You’re the only person Yeah. Who has checked in with how I’m doing. One person I’m thinking of in particular, I don’t wanna go into the details of it, but he was in the wrong Yeah. (36m 29s): And I was like, I’m really sorry you’re going through an online shit storm. And he was like, you’re the only one. Yeah. Thank you so much. And I was like, please don’t, please don’t do anything to hurt yourself. Like please know that there is a way through this and you know, keep staying in the conversation. Don’t get so like, I, you know, I’m gonna bring him up because everyone else always brings him up in this context. But Trump, like, he is not Post Shame. He is shamelessness personified. He is all elbows out. He he has no empathy, he has no contrition, he has no humanity. So go live your life as, as Donald Trump. It’s, let me know how it goes. (37m 10s): There’s no way it’s fun. Yeah. There’s no way it’s connected. Yeah. There’s no way it’s enriching. Yeah. Like look at that guy. He’s so, he obviously smells and is just like an arid rotting from the inside human being. Sure he is a massing power, but at what cost? Yeah. Like, and which is why I really worry about kiddos seeing people like that in unquote power because they’re like, well is that how you get through this life? Yeah. Is elbows out saying, no apologies to anyone and I’m over here Post Shame being like, no, no, no. Apologies to many. Yeah. But you don’t have to actually apologize to everyone. ’cause sometimes the thing that you think is shameful actually isn’t shameful. (37m 50s): Especially if when it comes to things like sexuality and recovery and evidence of, you know, sex tapes and nudes and everything. Yeah. Yeah. So did that, did that answer your question? Yeah. That that’s what I do with cliche a lot. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And it’s just like, wow. It’s like I, you don’t have to apologize for the sex tape, but like someone else should probably be apologizing for like the fucked up relationship that they, that they had. Right. We, and we like ways, we were talking about sort of things are like racialized and gendered and like queer people are stigmatizing in different ways than straight people. And it’s just sort of like the ways in which we’re told like, these things are bad. I remember like when I was living in West Hollywood, someone was like, some, some guy, some queer man was like running for I think city council and he was like, by the way, I have a dude’s nude. (38m 31s): Like here’s the account I, I Know. Yeah. I know this story. Like, yeah, he’s an, an early, I forgot his name. He’s an early, he’s an early example of Post Shame. There was also someone who was running for governor of Arizona and he, these, there were these early examples of like, well I guess it’s gonna leak, so why don’t I just come out about it anyway. Yeah. Which I think is an amazing first draft. Neither of those candidates was like, especially like politically agile. Yeah. And like, did they even get any like, support on their side? Like it’s interesting for the headline. Yeah. Which I also think is something people are very concerned about pursuing Post Shame is they’re like, well, I don’t wanna just come out about everything. (39m 14s): Like, the best part of being in interaction with other humans is that we remember that like context is important. Like things should be context dependent. It’s actually very inappropriate if I just walk into every business interaction I have and I’m like, Hey, I have naked photos of me on the internet. Like, it’s like, whoa, whoa, whoa. Hold on. Yeah. Like, that’s not what we need to talk about right now. Yeah. Do I feel it’s important for me to publicly discuss that I have naked photos on the internet because I want to de-stigmatize them and like come out relentlessly that revenge porn is abhorrent. And at the same time we can also continue a conversation that having naked photos of yourself on your phone or sending them to other romantic partners or people you’ve never met that you’re just simply chatting with is also allowed Yeah. (40m 2s): In a reasonable way for consenting adults to communicate. Yeah. So like my nudes are on the internet to fight revenge porn, but like, I can’t actually go into a conversation with someone who doesn’t want to talk about nudes at all and just be like, nudes, nudes, nudes. You, you have to, you have to stand up for stuff at the same time. There Was a while ago where someone that I knew back when I used to go to church, like at some point we became social media friends and like he would send me like flirty messages that I would like not particularly reciprocate. And at some point I started just getting like, like naked pictures of like explicit like dick pics and, and butt pics. And I was like, I don’t, like, this is not our vibe. (40m 45s): And I remember him being like, oh, sorry. I just like, I’d be like, I’ve had so much shame that I’m like really trying to like be like more sex positive And I like, don’t always know where the line is. And I was like, okay, well like sending like non-consensual naked photos is like not sex positive. Like, so I could send them to consenting people who wanna have it, but like I actually like don’t want to receive these anymore. So like please don’t send them to me. And then like he would stop for a while and like he’d be like, send of ’em again. I’d be like, we have talked about this. Like, And I was like, if you do this again, like I’m going to block you because like, this is not like this second or third time that we had this conversation. And like, and then I kept tapping And I was like, man, like this is not, this is also like not it, right? Like I’m glad that you’re feeling your oats, but like if you’ve got a clear, literally metaphorically, I guess if you’ve got like a clear signal that it’s not okay or not wanted like that, you gotta knock that off and it’d be one thing. (41m 34s): Or if it was like we were in a group snapshot and like that was sort of like the vibe and like the first time And I don’t know, like I’m kind of a like, you get one free pass sending me nudes and I’ll like tell you if I want more of not or not, but like, not everyone is like that. It just feels like if you’re gonna be talking about these topics or sending, like you were saying like the context is so, is important. Like talking about it is different than like showing them, talking about them in sort of this like the, the way that you talk about like your work and like the importance of it is like different than talking about them in sort of like a titillating way. That’s something that we inside of our online community are that we always like striking that balance of like, how do we open up spaces to talk about sex and queer sex and like not being ashamed about sex and like anonymous sex or sex parties without also like, and like being able to like name that and having a space to discuss that amongst other spiritual folks without it being sort of like inappropriate for people who like Yeah. (42m 26s): And so like that’s always like a balance and it like, like you were saying, it just looks like context. Context and can sound are both so important in this in these conversations. Yes. You’re reminding me of Audra Lorde has these beautiful, sometimes I go on like bell hooks and Audra Lorde and like, like these amazing Yeah. You know, YouTube like black holes where I just like, it’s like suddenly two in the morning and all I’m doing is watching Yeah. Watching all of this like amazing feminist content on YouTube. Anyway, she does this amazing clarification of the difference between the pornographic and the erotic. And I think you’re pointing out something important that like exactly like you have a book coming out that has to do with your non-monogamy and polyamory or sorry. (43m 13s): Yeah. I actually might be mis describing it. Is it polyamorous as well or is it Just Yeah, polyamory, monogamy. Yeah. All all things. Yeah. Great. So some people think those words are inherently pornographic, right? Yeah. They think immediately it’s like coming out as bisexual, right? Yeah. They think, oh my God, that means you are this greedy threesome having maniac. And it’s like, no, I was just describing my identity as Yeah. You know, as such, I’m, I’m an aspiring, budding bisexual. I’m actually get so much pushback and welcome. I’m a bisexual Too. That’s like a very, I’m a very faggy, very gay bisexual. Well, exactly. If anyone’s watching this on video, these two guys are like, so I’d like to go on a date with a woman. (43m 54s): And they’re like, did you see the snaps? You just gave? Like, you’re gay. Anyway, let’s, let’s leave that to the side. Let’s leave that to the side. But this, this, you know, we’re, we’re still talking about something fairly radical, right? Especially with all of this sexuality and like self-expression stuff. I am just very aware that many people perceive what I’m talking about as pornographic. And I very often try to ground it by saying I’m accessing my erotic all the time. These difficult conversations are part of my erotic, these talking about the intersections of shame and theology. I mean like, I don’t even know if 10 years ago me would even be able to have this conversation because I’d bring so much like agro upset energy to being like, so many people are mad church abuse scandals. (44m 44s): You know, just like, and now I’m just kind of like, what are the things that work for people? Ceremony is beautiful. Anyway. Yeah. So I just, I think there’s this key distinction between the erotic and the pornographic. And I think staying in the erotic is, is an appropriate loving way to have a conversation. And I just wanna point out that sometimes the nudes conversation on the plat, the different platforms that we’re all on, I think that it’s your experience of this person, like kind of sending you, you know, non-consensual nudes essentially is it’s in the platform. (45m 24s): Like the platform can be so deadened and the type of connection can be so deadened that this person is so desperate to connect that they’re like, here’s this whole, here’s this whole pick. I’m expressing myself, I’m sex positive. And you’re like, oh my God, this platform is so, so poorly designed that like, I’m open and Instagram and it’s just these like disappearing whole pic. And I was just like, okay, great. Like that’s not the energy I was in right now. Yeah. Like, I’m looking for grief resources. Yeah. I’m trying to, I’m trying to, to to do research on, you know, health and wellness. Yeah. It’s just like, it’s so messy. I had a, a client come to me recently who really wanted to come out about his inappropriate messaging behavior and we went through the whole like process of Post Shame And I kind of predicted where we were going to get to. (46m 18s): And when we got to the end of it, he realized he had like one apology to make and that what was really happening was that it was addictive behavior. And what he was doing was he wasn’t making his artwork because he was so caught up in what, like might even be described as like sex addict behavior. Kind of like a pathological behavior of like trying to get a rise out of people, get people’s attention and feel validated through this mechanism. Because of doing the PostShame process, he realized he had one apology to make and he needed to delete like Grindr from his phone. And I was like, that is a beautiful end of Post Shame. (46m 58s): You don’t have to like go on a press tour talking about all the messed up messages you sent. Like it, it can actually be tampered down. Yeah. And again, this is one of my favorite parts of Post Shame is like walking people through, you know, what do you feel ashamed about? I bet other people are also having a similar experience and how can you share your story to help other people feel less alone? And that’s what we’re doing right now on this podcast. Yeah. Yeah. So with the pulse shame consultancy, it sounds like your clients tend to be like higher powered, like, or not high powered, but yeah. High, high powered and high or high level or aspiring to those levels like business executives, politicians, like things like that, people in the public spotlight, leaders of some sort or aspiring leaders. (47m 46s): Do you also, but also do any work with like, just sort of like everyday individuals? And if not, like, do you have any like, tips for like, just sort of like, I Mean, all my clients are badass, so Yeah. So some some are, some are more high profile than others. Sure. But I also have a sacred intimacy practice. Yeah. And I would describe sacred intimacy as a healing modality where you work with a PR practitioner who’s willing to help you kind of investigate your shadows and come up with somatic like embodied exercises to kind of metabolize those shadows, complete processes in your mind and body like Carl Jung style that like need to be completed. (48m 26s): And sometimes that can in and can include touch and intimate touch. So my Post Shame world has also kind of morphed into the sacred intimacy world where you’re asking like, is it, is it like everyday folks? I have a lot of straight male clients who are kind of meeting their body for the first time and are so scared and don’t know where to go for this type of like, coaching. And I have to say the touch elements with my straight clients are pretty, pretty low. Like, like low stress. Like none of my straight clients are coming in and like asking for like very explicit work. (49m 6s): They’re kind of like, I’ve been married for 10 years. I, sorry, how explicit am I allowed to? You could be As as close as you might be. Yeah. It’s just, I was just like, they’re like, you know, I’ve been married for 10 years, you know, I, I only, I can only come by jerking off. Like, I don’t like having sex with my wife. I gained all this weight. I wanna get off these antidepressants, or I wanna get off this Adderall and this is making me feel this way. And it’s just like, people are just like so squirreled up with like all these things about their body and sex and shame. And so we do, you know, embodiment exercises to kind of like help them meet their body again for the first time. For many of them, they haven’t had a male counterpart that they can talk to about these parts of their body. (49m 50s): And looping this back to like religious shame, so many of these men are afraid of being labeled as gay because they’re coming to this place for this type of help. And there’s nothing gay about a kind of like, again, ceremonial, ritualistic, like being with another man and talking through how their male anatomy works, how they experience their male body and healing that. And I know it sounds odd to say, but like it’s not gay. Yeah, no, It, it’s not gay. It’s, it’s kind of bro vibes. And I like use this imagery a lot. (50m 30s): I don’t know if it’s landing with people, but like, I really think about like men going like building a fire in the woods together and like talking about what matters to them and like discovering, like that’s their form of church, right. Like discovering their inner worlds sharing, being in relationship with one another. They’re not gonna make out, they’re not even gonna spoon in their tent. Yeah, yeah. But they need someone to talk to about this life, the, the mystery of their body, their sexuality in themselves. Yeah. And also like, as, as Gayness for lack of a better word, has gotten like more visibility. I feel like there’s, it’s not accepted fully. (51m 13s): So there’s like this like retraction away from types of touch kiss, physical affection that like straight men used to be more comfortable doing one another that now they’re so God afraid of doing, the fear of being perceived as gay. Like, I had this, I have this book called, oh I can See It, loving a Photographic History of Men In Love 1850s through 1950s. And it’s like these really cute and like I, I read it and like they all as like, it’s a photo book. So I look through it And I like, they all look like super queer to me and some way, but like I am aware also that like some percentage of these men are probably like not actually like gay in the way that we would describe it. It’s just that like you could be cutesy and hold hands or be silly together like in 1890s in a way that you like is like less accepted now because it gets like coded as gay. (52m 2s): Yeah. I do a lot of like breath work retreats, yoga retreats, plant medicine retreats, even in mixed gay and straight spaces, but they are usually male or male identified only. And when men are together, they’re goofy. They love like climbing on one another and like being like, it’s roughhousing. Yeah. And it’s like, it’s, it’s, I Don’t know, it’s we’re animals, man. Like, Like I know we are animals, But we’re like Animals. Like Yeah, I know. Also, like I’m six four and 200 pounds. Like I’m, I’m a great guy to wrestle with. Yeah. Like, you can climb me and like, yeah. (52m 44s): Again. Yeah. So that’s what I’m out here in the world doing and that’s how Post Shame has kind of like, has this like offshoot and sacred intimacy. And I am manifesting like a headline that is like the Straight Whisperer. Like I really feel like there is just, there’s all these headlines about male loneliness and like the crisis of men. And like people like Scott Galloway are doing their very best to like put this like magnifying glass on like, we really have to take care of these men because they are lonely and they are dopamine addicted and they are playing video games and they also have access to guns. Yeah. Like it can be very, very dark and scary. So I want to be out here being like, well, there’s a nice guy Adam, who like is willing to talk to you about whatever is the scariest, darkest part of yourself. (53m 30s): Yeah. And like, if you need a hug, I’m also came for a hug. Yeah. And it’s not gay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I gotta connect you with my creative partner here, Shannon, because his book is all about like masculinity and all that shit from his like perspective as a trans man. Right. Shannon is a trans man, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So I love, I love talking to trans men about their experience of the first time they take testosterone. And I hope I’m not stealing a joke from Shannon, but apparently it’s like you are horny and hungry. It is literally like, I want a sandwich And I want to fuck. And I just think that is so funny. I haven’t gone on like HGH or like testosterone journey for myself yet, but I’m sure when I get into my fifties and if that becomes part of my life, I’m just gonna be like, they were right. (54m 11s): I’m hungry and horny. Yeah. I remember like in my, in my twenties, like I, I had like my dad’s bald, my mom’s, my mom’s ad was bald. Like I have lots of balding in my family. I just like didn’t wanna go bald And I was considering going on Propecia to stop my hair loss. And I was like having all this angst about like spending money on this pill to my, just my body. And I was talking with one of my friends who happens to be a trans guy and he Was like, just wait till prep comes out and then you have to walk through that fire as well. I know. He was like, I don’t know man. Like I, if there’s like some medication that you can take that like makes you feel more at home in your body, like obviously I’m in support of that. And I was like, And I was like, well of course, like of course like you are allowed to do it, but it just like, somehow it felt like superf allowed superfluous like when I was doing it. (54m 54s): And he was like, you can let, like, you can let that go man. And so I like, I’m really appreciative for the ways in which like trans guys have also taught me how to be a man. God is trans. Yeah. God is trans because trans folk, this is, this is where I’m at And I know there’s no trans folks in the room right now. So if someone is like, you can’t talk about the trans folks if they’re not even there. I’m going to share this closely held personal view, which is trans folks by being themselves. It is like coming out, I’m about to say coming out on steroids. I mean, it is such a magnified experience of coming out by saying, I am all of these things you cannot tell me otherwise. Yeah. What is more beautiful than that? Also, the, the revelations that we’re having as a culture that so many things we do are gender affirming. (55m 40s): I I I would love to get rid of the gender binary, although some of us are at one end and others of us are at the other end. Yeah. I I don’t think we have to focus so much on the one side or the other, but if you need to go on that testosterone and grow that beard and get the surgeries, knock yourself out. Yeah, yeah. Like be gender affirmed. Yeah. Yeah. So if you And I, you And I will have a support group if we go on testosterone in a few years and we will, we will go back to each other and be like, we’re hungry and horny. Yeah. Yeah. That’s, that’s gonna happen. So if folks are interested in connecting with you about your Post Shame consultancy work and or your like sacred intimacy work, what is the best way for folks to get ahold of you for that? (56m 21s): Post Shame dot org is the prettiest website on the internet. I’m on Instagram at, at, at a mac attack, And I recently have joined Blue Sky and am dipping my toe into what it’s like to commune with all of the folks who are sharing their nudes and kind of like living a kind of like much more out and proud life on Blue Sky. And that’s Alt Mac attack. Get the joke. It’s like an alt Twitter, but it’s Alt Mac attack and I’m having a little bit of fun over there. But I gotta say it’s scary because Yeah. Living out and proud is, and, and, and really walking the walk while you’re talking, the talk can be confronting. (57m 4s): So if you, if you see my nudes on Blue Sky, please be nice. Awesome. Well, thank you again so much for being here, Adam, it was great to connect with you and thank you for this like, really delightful and insightful conversation. Thank You. And thank you for all the work you’re doing. And may we both keep shouting our missions loud and proud, because it turns out they’re all the same. All we’re doing is dissolve and shame all day long. Amen to that. The Queer Theology podcast is just one of many things that we do at Queer Theology dot com, which provides resources, community, and inspiration, Fort Q Christians and straight cisgender supporters. To dive into more of the action, visit us at Queer Theology dot com. You can also connect with us online on Facebook, Twitter, Tumblr, and Instagram. (57m 46s): We’ll see you next week. The post Post Shame & Sacred Intimacy with Adam MacLean appeared first on Queer Theology.

We’re doing something that we haven’t done in awhile here which is to have a throwback episode for this week. We’re coming up on a huge milestone- 600 episodes!-  and there’s probably a lot of episodes that some of y’all have not heard and we think that revisiting the Bible has power because you learn new things. So for this episode, we’ll revisit Queerness as a Cornerstone.  This episode is filled with so much good stuff and we’re excited for you to dive in. We have a listener question from Bella about how to talk about your faith without making other people uncomfortable. How do we disconnect sharing our faith from some people’s ideas about evangelising people. We also queer this week’s passage from 1 Peter 2:2-10. We talk about what it means and feels like to be nourished by God’s word and how the experience of queerness and transness can be a touchpoint for the entire church. So stay tuned and enjoy this episode.   In this episode, we talk about: Brian talks about learning Danish and cooking  Fr. Shay talks about cooking monstastic soups  Shout out to a new Patreon supporter  A question from Bella about how to talk about your faith Fr. Shay talks about the pressure to evangelize that he grew up with  Brian shares about how progressive folks sometime move too far in the other direction Fr. Shay talks about disconnecting sharing from conversion  Invitation to Sanctuary Collective  We queer a text from 1 Peter 2:2-10  Brian talks about the joy of being nourished by God’s Word  Fr. Shay talks about what it means to taste that the Lord is good  Brian delves into the power of learning to trust your body  Fr. Shay talks about the power of those rejected to build something incredible    Resources:.  Join our online community at  Sanctuary Collective Community  If you want to support the Patreon and help keep the podcast up and running, you can learn more and pledge your support at patreon.com/queertheology   This transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors or omissions. (9s): Welcome to the Queer Theology Podcast. I’m Brian G Murphy. And I’m father Shannon, T l Kearns. We’re the co-founders of Queer Theology dot com and your hosts from Genesis, revelation. The Bible declares good news to LGBTQ plus people, and we want to show you how Tuning each week on Sunday for conversations about Christianity, queerness and transness, and how they can enrich one another. We’re glad you’re here. Hello. Hello. Hello. It’s Brian. For right now, you’re getting just me. She’ll be tuning in in a way, in just a moment. We’re doing something that we haven’t done in a little while, which is we’re going to have a Throwback episode for you today. We’re coming up on 600 episodes of this podcast in I think just a few weeks, which is, this is a lot of episodes. (54s): And so unless you’ve been listening diligently every single week for the past, I dunno, 12 years, And I know that there are some folks who have been around all that time. So like, shout out to you and thank you for going on this journey with us. There’s probably a lot of episodes that you have not heard or that you heard a while ago and have since forgotten. And we think that there are some real gems in there, and in the same that we think that revisiting the Bible has power ’cause you like learn things new. And again, I think similarly hope that revisiting this podcast episode will speak to y’all in a new and a fresh way today. So that’s like the philosophical, nice sounding reason for why we’re doing it. The other reason is just a practical matter, Shannon And I have both had been having to work more at our other jobs as we’ve been having to work less at radiology because the funding is just not where it used to be. (1m 40s): And so if you would, so it’s just like hard to schedule times when we’re both available because we’ve more been working a lot outside of this. If you would like to help contribute to make our work here at the podcast and elsewhere on the internet more sustainable, we would, we would share your support. That is, you can do so@atpatreon.com slash Queer Theology, or you can join the community at Queer Theology do com slash community. You’ll also hear the start of this episode. I’m a listener q and a. And so if you have a question that you would like epi answer in a future episode of the podcast, send us an email to connect at Queer Theology dot com or just pop on over to Queer Theology com slash listen and you’ll be able to pop up in the bottom corner. You can record our voice note. We would love to hear your voice like we hear Bellas In this episode. So without further ado, here is Queerness Is A Cornerstone, our queer take on first Peter two, two through 10. (2m 29s): Hello. Hello. Welcome back to the Queer Theology Podcast. So Brian, what’s going on in your world? Well, I am still on my Danish kick and I’ve, I’ve, I found my, my great aunt’s like Danish cookbook and so I’ve been tackling some recipes there, some that I grew up making. So I’ve been starting with those and I’ve, they’re got, there’s some ones in it that look really interesting, but I don’t think I’ll be doing like pickled herring anytime soon. So I, so I’m just sticking with like the simple stuff that I already know how to make lots of like baked goods and pastries. So that’s been fun to sort of like, since all the gays on Instagram are baking and everyone’s making like cookies and breads and pies, but I’m making like Danish pancake balls and other weird stuff. (3m 18s): So that’s been fun to sort of scratch that itch in addition to learning the language. What about you? Yeah, So I got a book for Christmas that’s called 12 Months of Monastic Soups, and it’s all soups made in monasteries or soups that monks would eat. And I’ve been working my way through that book. I’m still actually in January cooking my way through January, even though it is clearly not January anymore. But that’s been really fun and the soups are quite tasty. They’re super simple and fairly easy to make, but they’re really great. But it is also clear to me that the monks don’t like a lot of spice. (3m 58s): That’s been my one kind of beef with this of, of sometimes wanting to be like, y’all need some red pepper in this. I also got a pasta maker for Christmas, and so that might be my next experiment to make some, some pastas. I got a book called Mastering Pasta, so we might be trying that next, although I don’t know, that might be too much. That is next level. I, I make like zucchini pasta sometimes by just like spiralizing zucchini. But that, that’s as far as I on the pasta train that seems, We got one of those too. I, I once made pasta. I’ve made it one time and it took forever, just forever, forever, forever to make it without any of the equipment and for just one pot of spaghetti. (4m 46s): So I don’t know, but yeah, we’ll see. I’ve got it. So I might as well try it. Yeah, Yeah. Months ago, back when we were able to be in the same place as other people, my, one of our, I went over to a friend’s place for like a big group dinner and someone had brought like mostly pre-made like pasta dough that all we had to do was like knead it some more and then like run it through the machine. And so that was fun to sort of like do a little piece of Before we dive in, this podcast is brought to you by over 130 supporters on Patreon This week we want to give a shout out to James Alameda who joined four months ago. So thank you so much James. Thank you. And if you enjoy this show and you want to support it, you can do that for as little as $2 per month over@patreon.com slash Queer Theology. (5m 31s): You can learn more about why we need your support and you can check out all of the sweet perks. Again, that’s patreon.com/ Queer Theology. Okay, onto the show this week we’ve got a listener question from Bella who is a supporter on Patreon. She recorded an audio question for us, so we’re gonna go ahead and play that now. Hi guys. My name is Bella And I love your podcast. You guys have really helped me to fully accept myself and my sexuality as beautiful and something that God created. So for my question, I was wondering if you guys have any advice on sharing your faith? I grew up in a couple different conservative and non-denominational churches and evangelism and outreach to strangers was huge. (6m 18s): I always felt uncomfortable with it because it was always the turn or burn approach where they would manipulate people into thinking they’re bad and going to hell. And because of this, even though I have a strong relationship with God And I have a church that I love and that is very accepting, it’s still really hard for me to even just tell people that I’m a Christian. So do you guys have any advice on how to share my faith? Because I do wanna tell people about the amazing things that God has done in my life, but I just don’t want to make them uncomfortable or force anything on them. Thank you. Oh man, I really resonate with this question. I grew up in a tradition that said that you had to share your faith and that if you didn’t like people were gonna go to hell and it’s gonna be all your fault. (7m 6s): I once went on this mission trip, I think I’ve may have told the story before, but I called it the mission trip from hell because it was, And I remember they took us to a McDonald’s and they told us that we weren’t allowed to order lunch until we had witnessed to another person. And I just, I remember feeling like so awkward and annoyed and hungry as I’m trying to like find an unsuspecting McDonald’s patron to foist my faith on. And I just remember feeling that it was like super awkward. And so I, I resonate with this question of like wanting to find a way to talk about something that’s important to you in a way that isn’t awkward and uncomfortable. (7m 49s): So Brian, do you have any tips for Bella? Yeah, I think that, you know, lots of folks who grew up in a more conservative, you have to share your faith or sharing your faith is all about converting people so that they like don’t go to hell. I, you know, like I think progressive Christian folks like sometimes have like moved away from that and been like, well we, I don’t want to share my faith in that way because I don’t wanna like put pressure on people or, you know, we believe in sort of interfaith work or that it’s okay to be non-religious or, you know, all those, those things. And I think that’s important to respect people’s journey and where they are. (8m 34s): And you know, we often say like, it’s okay if you’re not Christian. Like that’s okay. And also something has happened like in our lives and we’ve found healing and transformation and grace and clarity in community and that like something really resonates with like the Christian story and with the work that we are doing and what we found. So obviously like we started a podcast and a website, like we believe that that like at its heart, like Christianity and queer Christianity is like, is like worth sharing. And so for me it’s less about when I approach these conversations about trying to like convince someone to do it my way or to believe the things that I believe. (9m 18s): And it’s more about saying like, here’s how I’ve like found life. Here’s how I found healing, here’s how I found wholeness. These are like the effects that have happened. And not just like the effects because like often Christianity is like presented as a sort of like miracle cure. Like I used to be sad and then I found Jesus and now everything’s great. And so it’s like, not about like the before and after, but like we really think that like the transformation happens like in the work that like the beauty and the divinity is found like in the, like in the process and in the muck and in the doing of it. And so I share like the meaning that I’m, that I found, but also that like I’m finding and making and why that’s resonating with me. (10m 1s): And I think that for some folks like Christianity is like the perfect vessel for that. And queer in Christianity, especially if you grew up Christian, like finding this sort of like liberating and transformative understanding of the gospel is gonna be huge. And for some people they might like learn from our process but apply that to their own lives in their own spiritual traditions that they come from or, or, you know, growing up atheist, but having like the baggage of of being like raised in a, you know, Christian supremacist culture, right? Like the process might be similar but but different for someone else. And so it’s, it’s less about trying to convert them to my version of Christianity and more of sharing the work that I have done I am doing and how it’s been meaningful to me Yes to all of that. (10m 48s): And I think it really helps if you can disconnect your sharing from this sense of evangelism, right? Like you are simply just talking about things that are important to you. And if you can disconnect it from this sense that you’re trying to convert or coerce someone to believe the way that you do, I think that it frees you up to just have a conversation with people and you, you can talk to your friends and be like, you know, this is what, this is what’s been going on in my life and like I call this god or theology or Christianity and like, this is why it’s important to you, to me. (11m 29s): And I think that like when you do it that way, it, it takes the pressure off of your friends to respond in a certain way and it it frees them up to be able to just listen and engage with you. And I think too, like if you do have a friend who’s like, you know, I really can’t hear about God or Christianity, like I have too much baggage or trauma around that, then it also lets you say, cool, like I don’t have to talk about that because I don’t have any pressure. I’m not under any pressure to convert you. And I think that that that really helps to, to make, to make sense of, of of how to talk about your faith in a way that feels freeing and good and right for everyone involved. (12m 17s): Absolutely. We wrestle with questions like this, how to integrate our faith into our lives in ways that are real and meaningful and also respectful constantly talking about, about issues of importance. And so if you’re looking to dive into questions like this and others of everything from coming out and families and dating and loss and mental health and coping and quarantine and so much more, and we would love to welcome you as part of Sanctuary Collective, you can learn more at Queer Theology dot com slash community. Okay, let’s open up our bibles and queer this text. (13m 0s): Our text today is first Peter two, two through 10. And I’m gonna go ahead and read that for us. This is from the common English Bible. Instead like a newborn baby, desire the pure milk of the word nourished by it. You will grow into salvation. Since you have tasted that the Lord is good, now you are coming to him as a as to a living stone. Even though this stone was rejected by humans from God’s perspective, it is chosen valuable. You yourselves are being built like stones into a spiritual temple. You’re being made into a holy priesthood to offer up spiritual sacrifices that are acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. Thus it is written in scripture. Look, I am laying a cornerstone in Zion chosen valuable. (13m 40s): The person who believes in him will never be shamed. So God honors those who believe, for those who refuse to believe though the stone, the builders tossed aside has become the capstone. This is a stone that makes people stumble and a rock that makes them fall because they refuse to believe in the word. They stumble indeed this is the end to which they were appointed. But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people who are God’s own possession. You have become this people so that you may speak of the wonderful acts of the one who called you out of darkness into his amazing light once you weren’t a people, but now you are God’s people. Once you hadn’t received mercy, but now you have received mercy, A freaking men, Ooh, there is a lot to unpack in here. (14m 26s): There is so much in like every sentence and every word. I just right from the get go, I love that it starts with this idea of being like nourished by the milk of God’s word. And I think like that is a whole sermon right, right there that like, it’s supposed to be nourishing and you know what like nourishment and malnourishment feels like in your body. And so like is is this faith? Is this teaching, is this word that you’ve been taught and that you’re internalizing, is it actually nourishing you and and giving you life freedom, strength? (15m 9s): Or is it leading to depression harm, suicidal ideation? Like do you feel actually sick in your body? And just like learning to trust that is if we like didn’t even go into the rest of the passage, which is just like magnificent, but just this first, just these first two sentences about like being nourished I think is so important. Yeah. And Along with that, I think since you know that the Lord is good, this is such a huge point, right? If you know the Lord is good because you’ve tasted yes that the Lord is good. And so like if your conception is that God is a bully that is going to smite you for being gay, then like you aren’t tasting that the Lord is good. (15m 50s): And so, you know, we get so many emails for at Queer Theology emails over and over again asking like, how do I know it’s okay to be gay? How do I know that I’m not like damning myself? How do I know that God won’t smite me? And I think like this is the answer, right? Like if you are tasting that the Lord is good, then you can be assured that God won’t smite you because a good God won’t damn you or smite you just for being yourself. Yeah. And I know in the past we’ve talked about like learning to trust our bodies and we, we really go into depth in some of our courses inside a sanctuary collective. But like we’ve been sometimes been taught that like we, like can’t trust our bodies. (16m 34s): And I just love that the, the language used here is about like bodies and senses, right? It’s like nourishing and you can just like taste it and we have to, we can’t experience God without the sensations of our body. Oh, I just love this. Okay, so like, moving on to the other part, there’s then there’s this whole thing about, about the stone that has been rejected. And I just think this is such a beautiful metaphor for, for queer folks and our power shea. What would you say about that? I think this other idea, this idea of the rejected stone, the cornerstone, you know, we’ve, we’ve talked about this at Queer Theology a lot and not, not necessarily in these words, but this idea that like the faith of queer and trans people is so rich because we’ve, we haven’t been able to take anything for granted. (17m 23s): You know, everything that we believe, everything that we say, everything that we’ve done in the church has been something that we’ve really had to wrestle with and fight for and, and make space for ourselves in that. And I think that like, because we don’t take anything for granted because we’ve done such hard work, the faith that we have is so rich and so deep and so filled with life and goodness. And I think that like this faith that has come from our sense of rejection becomes then this cornerstone that not only queer and trans people can build on, but that like straight and cisgender people can build on as well. (18m 12s): Like it becomes this monument to a faith that is full and life-giving and leads towards wholeness. And that’s so incredibly beautiful and that because of the work that we’ve put in and the the ways that we’ve turned rejection around, we’ve created this cornerstone to this building that is our lives, that is this monument, this royal priesthood that is going to change the world. Yeah, And I think that there’s something important to note in here about how, you know, this is the stone that makes people stumble in a rock that makes them fall because they refuse to believe in the word they stumble. (18m 54s): And so like, if like people don’t recognize like your queer Christian glory, that’s on them. Like, you’re like transphobic pastor, you’re like homophobic parents, they’re like, you’re like weird uncle. Like they’re, they’re like missing out on something. They’re missing out on this royal priesthood, this holy nation, right? And you got something remarkable inside of you and that’s on, that’s on them if they’re missing out on that. Alright, that was today’s episode. I hope that y’all enjoyed this Throwback episode and reflection. I know that as I was listening back to it before recording this little intro and outro, I, I found something new gem that touched and inspired me. (19m 40s): And so I hope that is the same for you. You may have heard we referenced a few courses that were coming up at the time of the recording. Those have obviously passed since this episode was like from a few years ago. They live on demand inside of our learning and community hub. There’s courses and workshops on reading the Bible, purity, culture, sex and relationships. More generally, transgender like being a transgender person of faith, being a trans ally and spiritual practices lots more. So if you would like to get access to all those as well as an interactive community of queer spiritual seekers and people of faith from all around the world and help to support the work that we do here, you can do that at Queer Theology dot com slash community. We would love to have you inside. (20m 21s): Alright, talk to you next week. The Queer Theology podcast is just one of many things that we do at Queer Theology dot com, which provides resources, community, and inspiration for LGBTQ Christians and straight cisgender supporters. To Dive into more of the action, visit us at Queer Theology dot com. You can also connect with us online on Facebook, Twitter, Tumblr, and Instagram. We’ll see you next week. The post Throwback: Queerness Is A Cornerstone appeared first on Queer Theology.