Queer Theology

In this week’s throwback episode, we return to the final episode of our eight-part series on Matthew. And here is where we come to crucifixion and resurrection.. The End… but really, the Beginning! It’s important for us to call out and recognize in these texts the significant polemic against the Jewish leaders, even if most of Matthew’s audience still considered themselves to be Jewish. The context is crucial here for us to not continue the anti-semitic rhetoric that “the Jews killed Jesus”, but underline that the Roman Empire killed Jesus. We have stories of the anointing of Jesus, the last supper, his betrayal, the trial, and subsequent punishment of death. From the story of the resurrection, we really look at who Jesus entrusted the continued work of discipleship. It is not to perfect angels that this work is given to continue, but to the doubting, flawed, messy, complicated people. How can we embrace that same call to follow Jesus today?   Resources: Journey Into the Bible part of Spiritual Study Hall  Join our online community at  Sanctuary Collective Community    If you want to support the Patreon and help keep the podcast up and running, you can learn more and pledge your support at patreon.com/queertheology   The post Throwback: The End. Or is it? Matthew 26-28 appeared first on Queer Theology.

What was your upbringing regarding your belief in Satan or the Devil? How were you taught (or scared) growing up about the fallen angel, the demon, the serpent, Beelzebub, and the many other names? In this throwback episode, we will discover where our idea of Demon or Satan comes from and see how your beliefs or ideas about the devil line up with what scripture says. Satan in the Hebrew Bible: Numbers 22:22 Satan in the Garden of Eden as the serpent: Ezekiel 28:12-19 Where the term “fallen archangel” come from: Isaiah 14:12 Pop-cultural resources about The Devil: Inferno by Dante Aligheri Paradise Lost by John Milton The Canterbury Tales by Geoffrey Chaucer Screwtape Letters by CS Lewis A few images depicting Satan Florence Baptistry mural Detail of Satan from Hans Memling’s Triptych of Earthly Vanity and Divine Salvation Devilish propaganda William Blake’s depiction of Lucifer in Paradise Lost   Resources: Join our online community at  Sanctuary Collective Community    If you want to support the Patreon and help keep the podcast up and running, you can learn more and pledge your support at patreon.com/queertheology The post The Devil and His Many Names appeared first on Queer Theology.

We are queering the whole chapter of Isaiah 58 in this week’s episode. There is so much in this chapter, especially when we look at themes of justice, community, and personal reflection. It’s especially interesting to look at how this chapter resonated with our younger selves and how we view it today. There is emphasis on the importance of treating marginalized individuals with care and the communal nature of faith. We feel called in this chapter to foster growth and imagination, focusing on our own unique gifts that come with queerness.  Takeaways Isaiah 58 calls for justice and community care. Personal faith should reflect how we treat others. Communal restoration is a key aspect of faith. Revisiting scripture can lead to personal growth. Navigating privilege is essential in faith discussions. Sabbath is a time for rest and reflection. Imagining a better world is crucial for progress. Articulating a collective dream is necessary for change. Community support is vital for individual growth. Engagement with scripture fosters deeper understanding.   Chapters (02:59) Personal Reflections on Faith and Justice (06:02) The Communal Nature of Faith (09:12) Revisiting Scripture: Growth and Reflection (12:07) Navigating Privilege and Safety (14:49) The Importance of Sabbath and Rest (18:04) Imagining a Better World (21:03) Articulating Our Collective Dream (24:00) Conclusion: Community and Next Steps   Resources: Join our online community at  Sanctuary Collective Community  If you want to support the Patreon and help keep the podcast up and running, you can learn more and pledge your support at patreon.com/queertheology The post Queering Isaiah 58: Communal Restoration and Justice appeared first on Queer Theology.

This week we’re celebrating Brian’s new book, “Love Beyond Monogamy,” which comes out this month! In this book, he explores the themes of polyamory, spirituality, and the importance of love in various forms. Brian shares insights on how the book addresses both monogamous and non-monogamous audiences, emphasizing the sacredness of ALL relationships. The conversation also touches on the societal stigmas surrounding queerness and non-monogamy, and Brian reads an excerpt from the book that illustrates his perspective on spirituality and connection. This book is not just for poly folks or queer folks, it has so much for everyone.    Takeaways The book is about polyamory and spirituality. It addresses love in all its forms, not just romantic. Spirituality is a key theme in understanding relationships. The book aims to celebrate connections beyond monogamy. Brian emphasizes the importance of pre-orders for authors. Polyamory is often misunderstood as solely about sex. The book is for both monogamous and non-monogamous readers. Brian shares personal experiences with queerness and spirituality. The book includes a reading about finding God in community. Brian hopes the book will serve as a healing balm for readers.   Chapters (01:17) Exploring the Essence of the Book (04:57) The Role of Spirituality in Relationships (08:24) Reading Excerpt: The Polyamorous God (13:11) Dreams and Aspirations for the Book (15:43) The Gifts of Polyamory (21:15) Addressing Skepticism Towards Polyamory (24:26) Logistics and Upcoming Events Resources: Get Brian’s book, Love Beyond Monogamy: How Polyamory Can Enrich Your Spirituality, Faith, and Relationships Join our online community at  Sanctuary Collective Community  If you want to support the Patreon and help keep the podcast up and running, you can learn more and pledge your support at patreon.com/queertheology The post Love Beyond Monogamy appeared first on Queer Theology.

We’re going back to our roots and queering scripture for this week’s episode! We look at Hebrews 13:1-8, 15-16 where we explore themes of faith, community, and the importance of engaging with marginalized groups, particularly those who are incarcerated. We reflect on the radical message of this passage, and how it emphasizes the call to hospitality and solidarity. We also discuss the complexities of building relationships with those who are different from us, but the absolute necessity of doing so. We must be willing to be vulnerable, trust others, and practice embodied love in our interactions with others.   Takeaways The lectionary provides a framework for exploring faith and community. Hospitality is a divine encounter that can change lives. Solidarity with the incarcerated requires deep empathy and understanding. Trust and vulnerability are essential in building relationships. Engaging with marginalized communities can be uncomfortable but necessary. Solidarity is not just about charity; it’s about deep relationships. Practicing love means showing up for others in tangible ways. The messiness of life is part of the journey of faith. We must be willing to step outside our comfort zones. Engagement with others can lead to transformative experiences.   Chapters (02:43) Radical Hospitality and the Divine in Strangers (05:29) Solidarity with the Incarcerated: A Call to Action (08:04) Practicing Vulnerability and Trust in Community (10:47) The Cost of Solidarity: Embracing Messiness (13:48) Transformative Relationships: Beyond Charity (16:42) Engaging with the Uncomfortable: A Journey of Faith   Resources: Join our online community at  Sanctuary Collective Community    If you want to support the Patreon and help keep the podcast up and running, you can learn more and pledge your support at patreon.com/queertheology   This transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors or omissions. (9s): Welcome to the Queer Theology Podcast. I’m Brian G Murphy. And I’m father Shannon, T l Kearns. We’re the co-founders of Queer Theology dot com and your hosts from Genesis, revelation. The Bible declares good news to LGBTQ plus people, and we want to show you how Tuning each week on Sunday for conversations about Christianity, queerness and transness, and how they can enrich one another. We’re glad you’re here. Hello. Hello. Hello. Today is Sunday, August 30th, and the reason why that date matters is because we are kicking it old school style here in the podcast, and we’re gonna get back to our roots and queer, one of the passage, us from this week’s lectionary. If you have been a listener for only the past few years, you might not know that for the first like eight or so years, we went through the Christian Lectionary every week for those eight, eight years. (56s): So it’s a three year cycle. So we went through it almost entirely three times. Obviously we had a lot aqua to do, so we’ve been doing topics and deeper dives into whole books and interviews and things like that for the past few years. But we just really love the Bible. And there’s something about pulling up the week and seeing what speaks to us. This is also practice that Jews do through the weekly Torah portion. They, they, we go through the first five books of the Bible, the, the Torah, the first five books, ofm, Moses, Genesis, EXUS, Leviticus, numbers, and Deuteronomy on a yearly cycle. And so there’s something about like, it’s, it’s kinda like akin to pulling tarot cards where you just sort of, you pull the card and you see what comes up for you in that moment. And so this week we’re looking at Hebrews 13, one through eight, 15 through 16. (1m 41s): We’ll be reading from the common English Bible as is our practice. Keep loving each other like family. Don’t neglect to open up your homes to guests because by doing this, some have been hosts to angels without knowing it. Remember prisoners as if you were in prison with them and people who are mistreated as if you were in their place. Marriage must be honored in every respect with no cheating on the relationship because God will judge the sexually immoral person and the person who commits adultery your way of life should be free from the love of money, and you should be content with what you have. After all, he has said, I will never leave you or abandon you. This is why we can confidently say the Lord is my helper And I won’t be afraid. What can people do to me? Remember your leaders who spoke God’s word to you, imitate their faith as you consider the way their lives turned out. (2m 26s): Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. So let’s continually offer up a sacrifice of praise through him, which is the fruit from our lips that confess his name. Don’t forget to do good and to share what you have because God is pleased with these kinds of sacrifices. Oh man, this is so, so, so rich. I was like giggling because we, I, I have a book coming out in at this point, oh my God, like 18 days, 19 days. Ian Monogamy comes out on September 18th, and when we were looking, we were like, let’s just, it’s been a minute. Let’s look at the LEC to see if we might wanna do something of that. (3m 6s): And I, I don’t talk about this passage specifically in my book, but I do have a series of graphics for Instagram planned to promote the book that are a little bit spicy. So if you’re interested in some spicy Bible takes, follow me over at this is BGM on Instagram. And, and this is one of the passage us that I grabbed as around hospitality of Strangers. And in particular, like what, what stuck out to me was this bit about that like, because if you would like neglect to open up your house, you, you might miss out on hosting angels without knowing it. And so there’s like this something about angels, guests being angels, guests being God, seeing God in this stranger that really, that really sort of captured my attention. (3m 57s): And I have lots of sex positive and non-monogamous and polyamorous perspectives on that, but that I can, that I can certainly dive into. But I, I know also Shay, when I said, oh, oh, this passage jumps out at me, you also said that you were curious about this passage. So what are some of the things that come up for you? Yeah, I mean I, I’ve been doing a lot of work in, in regards to folks who are incarcerated lately. And so this Hebrews 13, three remember prisoners as if you were in prison with them really jumped out at me. You know, I think that’s a, it’s a verse on a lot of folks use in their kind of quote unquote prison ministry. (4m 37s): But I think about how often or how, how rarely I hear more progressive folks talk about this verse and, and really hold to that. And, And I, I, I was, I was actually thinking the other day about how how distant the lives of folks who are incarcerated are for so many people, particularly in like white, mainline more progressive traditions. Obviously that is not the case across the board, but in the, in many of the churches that I’ve been in, that has been the case. (5m 18s): Or if it wasn’t the case, the people who did have loved ones who were incarcerated or friends who were incarcerated, like didn’t really talk about that because they didn’t feel like they could or they didn’t feel like anyone could understand. Or maybe there was shame around that. And so I I, I’m just really struck by this, this line and, and especially like what it would do if we actually took it seriously to remember prisoners as if you were in prison with them. I mean, that’s a really strong statement of Solidarity. And I was also struck by, you know, I, I know that, I know in my experience, not a lot of people read out of Hebrews or spend a lot of time with this book. (6m 9s): ’cause I think it is a little bit of a quirky book, but I, I was just really struck by like how kind of radical this whole text is minus the like weird purity culture thing in the middle, but like, engage in radical hospitality, love each other, like family, remember prisoners and people who are mistreated, don’t love money. Be content with what you have. Like pay attention to the fruit of, of your leaders, not just like doing whatever they say, but like, consider the way that their lives turned out. (6m 57s): Don’t forget to do good, right? Like all of these, share what you have. Yeah. Share what you have. And like I, it just, I’ve been spending a lot of time around evangelicals and it just like boggles my mind that like they will pull out the sexual immorality verse and ignore everything else. And it’s like y’all, it says, it says these things, not so, Not so literalist now, are we? Yeah, it’s, it’s just, it’s just wild to me. But, but again, at the same, at the same token, like as I’m saying all of this, I’m also talking about how so many progressive folks like ignore the, remember those who are in prison. (7m 37s): And so I think Right, There is a sense of all of us pick and choose, but at least like, let’s be honest about what we’re picking and choosing and why we’re doing it. Because I think that like, that it’s that lack of honesty and transparency about how we’re engaging with the text, that is what makes it so dangerous to like pick and choose and, and, and enter into those kinds of conversations. Yeah, I I’m thinking about what you were saying about how for many people in white progressive churches that like people in prison feels like there’s at least one layer removed from that and it’s, I dunno, maybe it’s scary or it’s uncertainly dunno where to begin. (8m 24s): And I, I’m, I’m remembering our conversation a few weeks go about like rural God, city God. And one of the things that living in New York City has done for me is it like puts me in close proximity to lots of different types of people. And so there’s, I’m just sort of less immediately frightened by quote unquote the other, which is not to say that people in New York City like love prisoners and have good relationships with them, you could still have all sorts of shitty politics or theology around, around prison. And also I think that like, there’s something here about welcome and, and prisoners and even like these and sharing and these good fruits that there, that I think that we like really need to start practicing A getting comfortable being uncomfortable, and b, not being afraid of people who are different than us and people then are other than us. (9m 25s): And so, like in my book, Laiya Monogamy, I talked a little bit about like some ways that you might start do that. And I, And I, like, I don’t think that you have to have sex with Strangers to, to, to practice. But I, but what I will say is that like there is like an incredible amount of trust that anyone having a one night stand puts in the other person, but like in particular, right? Like queer men, we’re making lots of generalizations here, but like, there’s a culture of queer men having one night stands. We use Grindr, we use other apps to, to, to find hookups and then to just sort of like, I don’t, I don’t, sometimes I don’t even know your name and I’m inviting you over into my house. I’m gonna get totally naked with you. That’s incredibly vulnerable. And like if I can practice being trusting and vulnerable enough to have a one night stand, like certainly I can be, I can also practice tru being trusting and vulnerable enough to have a conversation with a person asking for money or to have a conversation or like become a pen pal with a prisoner or to get involved in like a local food kitchen that like these things take work and they’re gonna be outside of our comfort zone. (10m 33s): And also, like, one of the things that I recommend in my book is like if you can find one area where you’ve already practiced being a little bit uncomfortable or trusting in someone else a little bit more like that, they then you realize that that is a muscle that you can develop. And so then like where might you then also point yourself and try to develop or where you aren’t as comfortable or where you, your, your focus might need a little bit more attention. And I think, you know, all of us naturally have things that we’re more interested in, things that come easier to us. And I think that that, you know, we can’t, we can’t be doing all things all the time. We would be like, there’s just not enough time or energy in the day. (11m 15s): So we do, there is some amount of narrowing your focus that you have to do in order to like really do good work. And, and one of the things that I talk about in my book is to like make sure that that is like an intentional choice rather than I fall into the things that come easiest to me. I fall into the things that benefit me the most. I fall into the things that support people who look like me. I, I focus on the things that my, are important to my parents or that are important to, you know, the, the church that I’ve always gone gone to. And it, it might behoove us all to sort of look to see like, well, where are the spots that we’re not paying as much attention? And not that we didn’t have to become like full-time activists for those causes, but is there some learning that we could do around that? (11m 58s): Is there some sigma boosting that we could do around that? Is there some support we could offer in some way? Like might we pay like just a little bit more attention to some of those areas so that we can really, because I think like all parts of this passage from hospitality to being consolidated with prisoners to, I think also like even this like marish thing, like I think there is something that we could reclaim there that like they’re all sort of important ideals and like, I don’t want us to be single issue people of faith. And this can be like Audrey Lorde talks about that you can’t be single issue voters because we don’t live single issue lives And I don’t, I don’t want to fall into being a single issue person of faith. (12m 39s): Yeah. I I think the other thing that stuck out to me along with everything that you were saying is also like having a better understanding and practice of what Solidarity actually means and looks like. Because I, I think that along with getting uncomfortable, like Solidarity is also uncomfortable, right? Yeah. And so many of us, I I think again, speaking in general, gen generalities, gen generalities, there We go. Generalities. So many of us speaking in generalities, you know, have been taught about charity, right? Like donate, we give money, we volunteer somewhere, we quote unquote give back or whatever. (13m 29s): And, and again, that like keeps us at a remove. And, And I think that what this passage is calling us to is actually like not being at a remove, right? Welcoming the stranger into your home, remembering those in prison as if you also were in prison. And like, if we actually took that seriously. I, I think that changes our posture and it’s not just about, oh, I give money when I can. Yeah. Or I volunteer once a week. It’s like, no, I actually reorient my life so that I’m in deep relationship with people relationship and that then changes how I show up in the world. (14m 12s): And that is deeply uncomfortable, right? Because I think it’s really, it’s easier to think about like, how might I give to the less fortunate while also just then going back to my house. It’s a, it’s a lot different to think about like, oh, what does it mean to actually like be friends or family with someone who’s in prison? What does it mean to actually invite someone over to my house that I don’t know that well or that is really different than me? Like, what does it mean to share meals with people not from, you know, a soup kitchen counter where I’m on one side serving and they’re on the other side eating. (14m 56s): Like, what does it mean to actually break bread together? I think that those are the things that are, that we need to be practicing and that if we start to practice that, that like, that will radically change our lives. And that is very, very scary, I think. And also I think it’s going to be the thing that is gonna be necessary in the coming moments. Yes. Yes. And, And I like, that’s also like practicable. And so like, I think I sometimes take for granted that I, in my early twenties got like really intense civil disobedience, non-violence means training through from civil rights leaders. And that that really shaped me and that, that I was then thrown into activism in, in New York City. (15m 36s): And so like, this is like not work that you, one, I think the key Takeaways from that time of my life was like, this is like not work that you do on your own. And so there are already, wherever you live, there are people maybe not depending if you, if you live in a small town, like maybe not a five minute drive away, but like somewhat accessible to you, I’m sure that there are people that are organizing in some way. And so like if you need to get plugged into other folks to learn from them, like how do I like resist the police document, the police, like what are some places that I like might intermix my life with people who are different than me? Because like to your point earlier, it’s not about just like, oh, I give money or I volunteer and like, that’s enough. (16m 19s): But like, when I’m thinking about Solidarity, it’s like how do I use my body? Who am I friends with? Like where do I move to or do I not move to like if I have kids, like where do I send my, like kids to school, how do I like spend my money? Not just like, do I do, I give away a little bit when it feels convenient, but like, like a friend needs a new car, so I’m gonna, and I’ve got some extra cash, so I’m gonna like, I’m gonna shell it a thousand dollars and other friend’s gonna show out a thousand dollars somebody, I’m gonna show it a thousand dollars. And I’m like, buy this person a new car, or I’m gonna open up the doors to my house and house someone. Like sometimes Solidarity is uncomfortable and sometimes Solidarity costs something. (17m 8s): And like, and also it’s the right thing to do. And also like, you meet, you meet God there, you know? And, And I think too that there’s something about like, it’s often messy, right? Like you, there’s no guarantees that the person you’re supporting that just got out of prison like is gonna not go back. Right. And there’s, there’s no chance that there, there’s no like guarantees that the person you open up your house to like, might not steal something from you. Right. They might not, but like that could happen. And so, And I, I think that there is a a also a, a cost to weighing of like, it, this isn’t about perfection and it’s not about it. (17m 58s): It’s not about the shiny like, I don’t know, pamphlet picture that you get to post on your social media or your nonprofits website. Like sometimes relationships are messy and sometimes like you are gonna be the one that fails and lets someone down and does something that’s hurtful or harmful and like, that’s all part of it. Right. And I, And I think that, I don’t know, I, I think too often we, I get caught up in this idea of it has to be perfect before I can engage or like, if there’s a chance that it’s not gonna be perfect, I don’t wanna do it. And, and like we just don’t have time to be waiting for the perfect anymore. (18m 42s): Like I think we have to, we have to engage in, in whatever ways we can. And like you said, like not alone, like we do this in community and we do this, we do this as a practice and you don’t have to open your doors to a complete stranger tonight. Right. Like, that’s probably not the best thing for you to do. Yeah. But like, what are the ways that you can start on that journey of, of being in Solidarity in new ways? Like what is, what is the thing that you could do today to start opening you up to that journey of learning? Yeah. And also like, it might be that you open up your doors to a complete stranger tonight. You know, I’m, I’m thinking like, when I was in, in my twenties, my, like two of my good friends And I like, through these set of circumstances, we ended up like at a cafe. (19m 29s): Like one of them was in a, in a group program. We were all at dinner afterwards with people from the group. And the person who ended up at our table, we were like all chatting and hanging out and like, it came up like he like was planning on sleeping on the subway that night because he didn’t have stable housing. And one of my friends was like, no, like, you’re coming. Like, I just met you an hour ago at the start of dinner and like, you’re gonna come sleep at my place Sunday if you, if you would like a place to stay. Like, I’m gonna open up our couch to you. And like he ends up doing that. And over the course of the next, like many years, like, lived there for a while, lived with me for a while. At some point I ended up moving into that, that same apartment. And he moved away and then he moved back and we were all roommates together and like we’ve all, we’ve all since left in New York City and also like, we all still keep in touch. (20m 12s): And he became like a lifelong friend that I haven’t seen in probably a decade, but that we like text somewhat regularly. And there was times there where like it was uncomfortable and like we were, I was annoyed at him. He was annoyed at me. Like he left the state, I left the state. We came back like, it was like not, you know, like an easy story necessarily. Like, and also like, he’s like, like a good friend now. And that experience changed me. And it was, it took my, my other friend being like, no, like, this changes tonight. Or I’m thinking about friends that I know that have like fallen into addiction. And then because of that lost jobs then because of that, like lost housing and like, how do you like continue to show up for them and take care of them and love them. (20m 56s): Like even in the midst of addiction recovery, like relapse, there aren’t any like easy, clear cut like answers. And also I try to start with like, if I put love at the center and not this sort of just sort of touchy feely emotion of love, but like embodied love at the center of this. Like what are some ways that I can continue to show up for the people who I’ve known for a long time? The people who are crossing my path today, the people who I’m, who I’m, who I might meet in the future, the people that I share a city with. And it’s like, it’s, there’s not always the right answer and it’s definitely not always easy, but like, can you do something? (21m 40s): And it just like, it keeps coming back to like, it takes practice. So start wherever you are, like start practicing there and then try to take like one small step outside of your comfort zone. You can start by giving up Harry Potter. Like if you, I just, I was like listening back to, to a podcast episode I was on, I was like, you won’t stop reading Harry Potter. You think you’re gonna resist fascism or like confront the police or hide the Jews or the immigrants or like, or get trans people their medication. Like no, you won’t, you won’t, you won’t put on a book. Yeah, you are, you are literally watching Voldemort take over and you can’t even watch the, you can’t even learn the lesson from the book that you refuse to stop reading. (22m 21s): Yeah. Jesus. The Queer Theology podcast Is just one of many things that we do at Queer Theology dot com, which provides resources, community, and inspiration for LBTQ, Christians and straight cisgender supporters. To dive into more of the action, visit us at Queer Theology dot com. You can also connect with us online on Facebook, Twitter, Tumblr, and Instagram. We’ll see you next week. The post Strangers & Solidarity – Hebrews 13:1-8, 15-16 appeared first on Queer Theology.

Fr. Shannon discusses his upcoming book aimed at youth, exploring the impact of traditional devotionals on young people's faith. He critiques their limitations, emphasizing context and the potential for harmful theology. The conversation highlights the importance of innovative spiritual practices, encouraging young people to engage critically with scripture. The book includes journaling prompts for reflection, promoting a communal experience and empowering readers to ask questions and deepen their understanding of faith.

Rev. Mark E. Fowler from the @tanenbaumcenter joins us this week and discusses his journey from a Presbyterian upbringing to becoming an interfaith minister. Rev. Fowler guides Tanenbaum to the fulfillment of its mission to promote justice and build respect for religious difference by transforming individuals and institutions to reduce prejudice, hatred, and violence. He is a graduate of the One Spirit Interfaith Seminary, is an ordained Interfaith/Interspiritual minister, and is a Dean of second-year students at One Spirit Interfaith Seminary. In this episode, he explores the concepts of interfaith and interspirituality, emphasizing the importance of community and understanding among different faiths. Rev. Fowler shares insights from his work at the Tannenbaum Center, which focuses on combating religious prejudice and promoting justice. He reflects on personal experiences with spirituality, the impact of wounds from religious traditions on peoples’ spiritual journeys, and the intersection of faith and activism.    Takeaways Reverend Mark Fowler emphasizes the importance of community in interfaith work. Interfaith work involves knowing one another as neighbors and supporting each other. Interspirituality transcends traditional interfaith concepts, focusing on shared humanity. Tannenbaum Center aims to combat religious prejudice and promote justice. Personal experiences with religion can shape one’s spiritual journey significantly. Wounds from past religious experiences can influence current spiritual exploration. Christian privilege can be an invisible barrier to understanding religious diversity. Engagement in interfaith work can lead to healing and community building. Joy can be found in spending time with family and friends. The importance of investigating the relationship between culture and religion.   Chapters (04:23) Understanding Interfaith and Interspirituality (09:13) Personal Journey and Spiritual Background (18:21) The Role of Tannenbaum Center in Interfaith Work (27:31) Navigating Privilege and Spiritual Identity (33:12) Finding Joy and Community   Resources: Tanenbaum Center: https://tanenbaum.org/ Mark E. Fowler on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mark-fowler-9468b36  Follow Tanenbaum Center on IG: @tanenbaumcenter Join our online community at  Sanctuary Collective Community    If you want to support the Patreon and help keep the podcast up and running, you can learn more and pledge your support at patreon.com/queertheology   This transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors or omissions. (9s): Welcome to the Queer Theology Podcast. I’m Brian G Murphy. And I’m father Shannon, T l Kearns. We’re the co-founders of Queer Theology dot com and your hosts from Genesis, revelation. The Bible declares good news to LGBTQ plus people, and we want to show you how Tuning each week on Sunday for conversations about Christianity, queerness and transness, and how they can enrich one another. We’re glad you’re here. Hello. Hello. I’m excited to bring you another guest interview on the Queer Theology Podcast. Today we are talking to Reverend Mark E Fowler, who is the Chief Executive Officer of Tannenbaum, a secular non-sectarian nonprofit, providing thought leadership, innovative trainings and comprehensive solutions that foster respect for religious and non-religious beliefs and practices. (52s): Its mission is to promote justice and build respect for religious difference by transforming individuals and institutions to reduce prejudice, hatred, and violence. As CEO, Reverend Fowler is responsible for all of tenant bomb’s departments, the design and implementation of all tenant bomb trainings and the expansion of tenant bomb programs nationally and internationally. Reverend Fowler is a sought after keynote speaker and facilitator in all of tenant bomb’s core program areas, and has addressed organizations globally on issues of equality in race, gender, sexual orientation, and religion. Recently, Reverend Fowler delivered the keynote at the 2020 Diversity Best Practices Emerge Conference was featured in a fireside chat with Robert Cook, CEO, and president of F IRA’s 2020 Diversity Summit, and continued in his role as navigator at the 2020 unveiling of out Next’s latest curriculum outta the closet and into the C-suite. (1m 42s): Reverend Fowler earned a BA in English and Education at Duke University and was trained as a mediation and conflict resolution specialist with the NYC Department of Education. Reverend Fowler is also a graduate of the One Spirit. Interfaith Seminary is an ordained Interfaith slash Interspiritual minister and is a Dean of second year students at the One Spirit Interfaith Seminary. We are so glad to have you here today, Reverend Fowler. Thank you so much for joining us. Well, Reverend Mark, thank you so much for being here with us today. It’s just a joy to get to talk to you and share your story and share your work, And I know our listeners are gonna be really jazzed to hear about it. Thank you. It’s a pleasure to be here. So we’d like to start these interviews by asking if we were out at a queer dinner party or maybe like a church coffee hour, how would you introduce yourself to someone that you’re just getting to know? (2m 30s): Those is probably two different locations. Sure. Give us both of those answers then I wanna, I wanna hear the, the coffee hour and the cocktail party answer. Right. So at a, at a cocktail party or at a, a dinner or something like that. I’d probably say that I’m Mark, that I’m a native New Yorker, have been doing work in and around the community from a spiritual perspective for probably about 20, 25 years. And that includes being members of various different religious communities. I think if I were just kind of like hanging out at the church social, I’d probably talk about or say that, you know, I’m Mark Fowler, native New Yorker. (3m 15s): My journey started in the Presbyterian Church in Harlem and has kind of made its way through a number of spaces to now being a practicing interfaith Interspiritual minister. Yeah. And so can you talk about what interfaith means to you? I know lots of, it’s kind of a buzzwordy thing And I think lots of people, especially from Christian backgrounds, have good intentions when they head into interfaith work. But so what does that, what does that look like for you? Yeah, so personally, first I think I would say that I was not a person who was necessarily looking or searching for an Interspiritual path, and primarily because I grew up in a Christian environment, Presbyterian in Harlem, as I said. (4m 5s): And there is sometimes this, there are lots of assumptions and stereotypes about the difference between the black church experience as a theological precept and black people going to a church. And there’s kind of like this idea that, you know, there’s always, you know, tambourines and Hammond organs and you know, visitations of the Holy Ghost and all of that. And that was not my early experience. My experience in our Presbyterian church was one, things were a little bit more solemn, there were anthems, but it was a much more kind of relaxed, if you will, worship experience. (4m 46s): And for me, there weren’t other members of our family that practiced a faith different than the one that we all generally like went to. And so even in growing up in Harlem, like there was a Catholic church, which was predominantly InCorp, you know, had black congregants. There were places where other religious organizations gathered, but there wasn’t a lot of interaction between them except for if people happened to know each other in the buildings or the neighborhoods in which they lived. But there wasn’t a lot of visitation back and forth as I would grow older. Interfaith really did have to do with coming in contact with having some understanding of, and in some instances, beginning to practice or consider practices in traditions outside of the ones that I was familiar with. (5m 40s): When I think about interfaith work today different than in interfaith experience, interfaith work is often because we’re in the United States, most everything is kind of colored by Protestant Christianity in particular. But they generally, they tend to be spaces where people kind of like put their toe in the water at the, the very highest level of just meeting and knowing people of other traditions in deeper practices. It is communities that consciously and actively come together to know one another as neighbors and to be able to be of support to one another in times of trouble. (6m 22s): So an example of this for me, several years ago, there was a rabbi who was taken hostage in their temple via gunman himself and two other congregants. While that was going on, he had been a member of an interfaith group of religious leaders in their community. Nobody called them. As soon as they heard that the rabbi was in trouble, they self dispatched to that location to take care of his people while that horrible situation was being dealt with. And for me, that’s kind of one of the highest levels of interfaith experience and interfaith cooperation because you are no longer just like a representative of your faith. (7m 10s): You are a person that I know you are a member of my extended family and community, and if something happens to you, that’s wonderful, I celebrate that. But if there’s something that happens that’s troubling or there’s trouble, we are here for that as well. And I would say that inter spirituality is even a different construct than interfaith. Oh. So I, I love the distinction that you just made between an interfaith experience versus interfaith work. And not to like, I dunno put words in your mouth, but it, it’s, it sometimes feels like interfaith experiences might be a little bit like a melting pot, whereas like interi work is like everyone still remain retains their distinctiveness, but you’re working sort of together honoring those differences and working together like amongst and within them. (8m 1s): So yeah. Yes. And then, so I had a follow up question, but now I wanna know more about this inter spirituality. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So into spirituality is an ideal theological concept that I think really came into more knowledge, or at least was published about in the late nineties, early two thousands. There’s a book called The Mystic Heart, and then there’s another book called The Interest, the Becoming Interspiritual Age. And in both of those books, it talks about kind of like the condition that would exist beyond interfaith work as, as we were just been talking about it. (8m 41s): So where the concern for human humanity and the concern for human beings is outshined by any individual theological concept. And if anything that which we say we believe is actually in service to this larger ideal of global community, that there is no separation between people. There may be differences, but there’s no separation, there is no experience superior and inferior. And that whatever the goals and challenges we have of the day are for all of us to meet in a place that leaves us all. (9m 26s): Well, I love that. I love that. So the example that you shared of interfaith work was obviously a very sort of heightened emergency situation in your work at the Tanenbaum Center. Like what does that interfaith work look like on sort of an ongoing basis? Yeah, so at Tannin Bombs, first of all, we are a secular and non-sectarian not-for-profit. So we are not a religious organization ourselves. And that can get, you know, weird because people hear the name Tannenbaum and they automatically think that we are a Jewish organization aligned with Judaism, et cetera. We’re named after the Rabbi Mark Tannenbaum, and in particular because of his interfaith work before his death. (10m 12s): But we are not a religious organization. So a lot of our approach to this work is from a practical perspective. And how do you build, well, our mission is to combat religious prejudice, to promote justice, to build respect for religious difference. And so some of the ways that we do that are providing people with tools, resources, skills, so that they can navigate the religious diversity or the religious environment that they find themselves in. And with a goal of people being able to build bridges, relationships, coalitions, et cetera, that honor their individual faith journey. (10m 57s): Or even the journeys of people who don’t ascribe to a particular faith who are unaffiliated or atheist, agnostic, spiritual, but unaffiliated. All of those that we are trying to provide in the content areas in which we work an opportunity to consider what are my own biases and obstacles to really understanding and respecting the experience of someone, and how do we actually build, how do we address the concerns that we have, the communal concerns that we have where we find ourselves. Yeah, I know with this type of, you know, values driven work that the, the personal and the professional are often very much intertwined. (11m 37s): And so I would love to sort of rewind a little bit for you and can we sort of dive into you, you touched upon it a little bit, but sort of what is your background and experiences with religion like growing up and into adults? Yeah. And how has that shifted? What stayed the same? Yeah, what, what was the journey to hear? Yeah, so as I said, I, you know, grew up in a Presbyterian church in Harlem. I went to a Catholic junior high school in my neighborhood in the Bronx, where at the time, in seventh grade is the year, usually people participate in confirmation. And so I remember coming home and there are classes that are like built into the day, like there’s religious instruction classes. (12m 18s): So I remember coming home at one point and telling my mother, oh yeah, we’re getting ready for confirmation. She’s like, yeah, you’re not gonna be doing that. Like, you can go to the class all day long, but you’re not gonna be pre, you’re not gonna be like confirming yourself as a Catholic. Yeah. And I was kinda like, oh, okay. I mean, I didn’t know that there was anything, there wasn’t, it wasn’t presented as something that was wrong with Catholicism. It was just kind of like, you have a faith tradition and that’s the one that you’re going to follow. Was a little bit unchurched for a number of years because my mother decided, and we just, my sister And I didn’t really get along with some of the other kids in the church that we went to. (13m 2s): So we were happy to not go. And my mother had some concerns about like the church leadership at the time. So through high school I was pretty much unchurched. When I went to college, I started singing in the gospel choir And I had never sung in a gospel choir before. I’d never had that experience. And so during that first year, there was like, you know, learning this different wonderful music, but then there was this inner experience of God that I had not experienced before. And that was something that definitely continued through college and through that experience. (13m 42s): And then I joined new church that my mother had become affiliated with in the Bronx, and they refer to themselves as a non-denominational church that’s welcoming of all people. And so you had still, the majority of the majority to almost all of the congregants were black, but had come from a variety of experiences. Yet the church itself really kind of modeled the pastor’s training. And so it kind of operated as a Baptist church to a certain degree. And that church still exists. And I’ve had the honor of now preaching there after having been a member more than 20 years ago. (14m 24s): What, and then personally like, yeah, and then personally like meeting, like, you know, a friend of mine who is an AAN priestess and who was doing, who had been trained in and was doing indigenous practices and work and doing readings and things like that, which was also something that I had not experienced before my barber at one point. And at that time I actually had dreadlocks who was a Buddhist, who invited me to come to the temple to, you know, to meditate and chant. So I was just being introduced to other people’s experiences. (15m 4s): And I would say, again, it wasn’t so much that I was on this journey to find various experiences, but they were kind of finding me. And then in the early nineties, I joined a church called Unity of Fellow Unity, fellowship of Christ Church. Church started in Los Angeles as an AIDS ministry because at that particular time, as people were dying of aids, churches were not always funeral realiz people who had died of aids. And so within the LGBTQ plus community, there were people who had been ordained in a variety of traditions, and they started providing that service that grew into a church and social movement. (15m 52s): And I was a member there for many years. And that one was very much kind of like spanning a little bit of indigenous African ancestral tradition to Baptist and Pentecostal moments. So there was a lot that was happening inside of that experience as well. And I would say when I started working at Tannen Bound, what I started to experience in a different way, not necessarily so much from the personal expression, but really considering all of these traditions and people that I had never really thought about or knew about in depth or detail before, what was their lived experience in terms of how they were being treated equitably or not in the areas in which we work, which are education, healthcare, the workplace, and in peace building, or some might refer to it as conflict resolution still. (16m 52s): So that’s kind of been the journey. And then at in 2010, I decided to go to One Spirit, interfaith Seminary. And while I was a member at Unity, I had thought about pursuing, becoming a deacon. That did not happen while I was there, but there had been this earlier call to be of sacred service. And when I decided to fully answer that call, the interfaith model was one that was really appealing to me. Yeah, that’s really cool. I, my, my mom is a big, big, like we also grew up, I grew up going to Presbyterian Church and now I’m Jewish, but she’s like dabbling in Unity Foundation. (17m 42s): It’s much more her speed. I know when you were talking about sort of the ways in which different traditions were sort of like finding you, I I’m thinking of two different types of progressive Christians, LGBT Christians, and one is the sort of like, bring it on. I wanna like sort of sample everything. And then there’s another sort of archetype where I think it’s like, oh no, I can’t sample other things because like, those aren’t mine to, to take. And so I, I’m like curious sort of like your thoughts on the, like the, like what are people who are maybe grew up Christian and are sort of, maybe I’m still Christian, maybe I’m not still Christian, like maybe I’m curious, but I’m not exactly sure And I don’t know how you feel about religion. (18m 29s): Like what are some words of wisdom that you might have as they sort of deconstruct, reconstruct, find their spiritual footing? I don’t know how wise they’ll be, but Sure. The, the words that I’ll share. So I think there are a couple of things. One is if there are experiences that people have, and this is regardless of sexual orientation, gender identity or gender expression. But if there are experiences people have had where there is a wound or there is some kind of spiritual injury, that can often be what’s determining and deciding where and how to follow and what I want to explore, what I don’t think is open to me, et cetera. (19m 14s): And I do think that there, it’s important to at least be able to identify those wounds and consider how there might be some ongoing healing around that wound so that it closes over maybe the course of your life where there’s a scab for a period and then the scab falls off and then there’s new skin and then the skin feels in. Like I feel that to connect two different bodies of work I’ve participated in for a short period, I was, I worked in an organization that supported people who were HIV positive and or trying to remain negative. (19m 57s): And one of the things that I learned as I was being introduced to case management was for some people in recovery, depending on when they started using a particular drug, their emotional development stopped at the time that they began using and became addicted. And I have found that model to be helpful in thinking about how people pursue their spiritual life. So depending on where and when and how that wound happened, some people may find themselves wanting to explore a spiritual life, but emotionally may be responding to it from six or 10 or 13, 20, 25, whatever moment that was, that kind of interrupted, that natural experience is something that has to be like dealt with and adapted. (20m 47s): And I do think, in my experience, I, I’ve served as a dean at one spirit, and one of the things that I’ve often seen kind of consistently in classes is that people come to, into spiritual work in some ways because of that wound or being disassociated from a tradition that they were a member of. And what ultimately people find is that there is some reconciliation that was really beyond their imagination of reconciling with the tradition of their, their, the beginning of their journey or where that wound happened as a way for them to move into sacred service. (21m 31s): So there are any number of traditions, including non-Christian ones that require an adherence and almost a rejection of other traditions. But I think what people find in their lived religious and lived spiritual experience is that you can try and not see similarities in the ways in which people worship and believe, but you’re gonna see them. And the question becomes how are you gonna respond? Where what is black and white and right in front of you appears because it will. Yeah. It’s like we all use candles, lots of us use scents. (22m 13s): Most of us use our bodies in some way. Like Yes, yes, there are, there are all of these places of convergence that have to do with the experience of human beings seeking the divine in the ways in which they give language to that. Yeah. You’re also, And I love how you were like, I don’t know how wise this will be. And then it was just, I mean, just fire. So I, I often tell this story. I first told it a million years ago, close to 20 years ago when I was doing some activism on the equality ride, speaking at a conservative Christian college about, and we sort of like merged the story of the Garden of Eden and Genesis and this sort of my first gay relationship, but as a teenager, And I, like, I keep coming. (23m 0s): I mean, I keep on coming back to it partly because it really resonates with folks, but it’s sort of become like one of the cornerstone stories of mine. And I, And I think actually in coming up with that talk for this school was like when I really shifted in my head from like, I think it’s okay to be gay, to like I know it. And I had, And I had never until this moment realized like, oh, well, when I was a teenager was when I first had that conflict between my faith and myself. And so it like makes sense that EI was in my twenties by this point, but like going back and revisiting that moment and saying like, here’s how this is holy was so, yeah. (23m 45s): Like, oh yeah, of course, of course. That’s why that story in particular Yes. Means so much to me. And so, oh, that’s just, I’m, I love it. I’m seeing it on, anyway. It’s really cool. Thank you for that insight. I wanna talk more about like tenant balm and your work there in particular, we’ve sort of, given that the high level, I know that you do, you know, some events on life, some events in person in different cities. Like what is, for someone who’s not yet a part of the work, like what is, what are some like ways in or Yeah. Yeah. So there are different ways in, in our education work. So first of all, one of the things I just want to shout out my communications team for is that they do an amazing job maintaining all of our social media presences, our website, our YouTube page, all of those are places where there is, there are resources, recordings, et cetera. (24m 37s): In our education work, it’s pretty much directed towards teachers, But we increasingly are doing more work with parents and doing more work with school personnel broadly defined and occasionally more work with students. And so there are, there’s all of the resources that we have, but there are often trainings that are done online where people can participate in our workplace work. We do a lot of work with global corporations, large not-for-profits and government agencies. We have two convenings a year. One of ’em, which is gonna be next week, excuse me, our Religious Diversity Leadership Summit. We’re gonna be holding it in Philadelphia at the Franklin Institute. (25m 20s): And that is our general audience conference. So people who are intrigued and interested in the idea of religious diversity, inclusion, and belonging in the workplace. We often have people who are members of, or leaders of employee resource, group of faith-based, employee resource groups, chief human resources officers, chief Diversity officers. And we’re really just presenting information from a variety of speakers and panels on what are some of the current trends and topics that are of interest to people. We also convene what we call the Religious Diversity Symposium. And that is particularly for senior leaders to really think about and strategize what’s the long-term vision and goal within their companies and their institutions on building a culture that is respectful of religious differences, including the experiences of people who are completely unaffiliated from religion altogether. (26m 19s): In our healthcare work, we do a lot of webinars for healthcare professionals and those involved with providing care to people who are not medical providers on the ways in which patients and families make decisions for their care that are based in their religious and spiritual beliefs. And in some instances, those who do not have a belief and may be in a healthcare institution that is faith-based in some way. And how do they navigate their experience. We’ve created curriculum for nursing students, medical students, residency programs, and we have a book that we wrote called The Medical Manual for Religiou Cultural Competence. And then in our Peace building work, I think the most direct access is through the case studies. (27m 3s): So we’ve written two books that are volumes of the work of our peacemakers in action who are women and men religiously motivated working for peace in active conflict zones. Their life or their liberty may have been at risk. And one of the things that we found was most important was that finding people who were relatively unknown, who you are not gonna see on CNN, you’re not gonna hear on religion news service or W or NPR, but they’re doing the work at the grassroots level and their commitment is inspired by their religious and spiritual beliefs. So now, we actually, a couple of years ago started moving towards a podcast model for our case studies. (27m 44s): And so we have two of our peacemakers, Dani Jira from Sri Lanka, and the Reverend Jackie Mana Puti from Indonesia. Their case studies are actually podcasts that people can listen to and can hear their story and their voice. And where can folks find that? On our website@tannenbaum.org. And you can just tool around to the different programs and you can find, if you go to tannenbaum.org/peace peace building, you’ll find access to the ca to the podcast case studies. Great. And we’ll put links to all of these things in the show notes. Of course, yes. You mentioned, you mentioned religiously motivated, and so I Yes. (28m 25s): Obviously, you know, as you said, Nan Baum is a non-religious, non-sectarian nonprofit, but of course, the people who are do the work, I imagine many or most folks are religiously motivated Yes. In some way. And so, but I, And I know also for many people, sometimes justice work or activism or peacemaking feels like maybe something separate from like their religious or the religion that they were, are used to. And so in what ways does sort of your faith or religion motivate you towards this type of workout? Like how are those intertwined for you personally? Hmm. No one has ever asked me that question before. Brian. That’s a great question. So the first job that I applied for at Tannenbaum was to be the educator and trainer for what then was called the Religion and Diversity Education Program. (29m 17s): Hmm. I had been a public high school teacher for 11 years here in New York City. I had been a trainer in a program at the Anti-Defamation League called the World of Difference Institute. I had actually done some work around coaching people and professional development, but, and had never really, and had been a spiritual person or involved in religion and spirituality my whole life. But I was never, ever seeking a job that had anything to do with religion. And when I saw the job description, I was like, that is really interesting. It wasn’t something that I was looking for, but when I came across it, I was kind of like, huh, this is an interesting way to kind of, you know, spend time while you’re making money. (30m 0s): So when I started at Tannenbaum, it wasn’t so much driven because I felt like it was, being at Tannenbaum was fulfilling a spiritual mandate for me. As much as this is a topic that, or this is an, an area religion is something that has been helpful, useful, has supported me, And I wonder what it’s like, Hmm. Within the first two years of working at Tannenbaum, one of the things that I came across was an article that was written around white Christian privilege and Christian privilege in particular. (30m 43s): And it was built around the idea of Debbie McIntosh’s article on unpacking the in invisible knapsack around white privilege. But this author identified that, so I can identify as white, but I’m also Jewish and there are some privileges that come with Christian privilege that I don’t get. So he then kind of took the concept and personalized it as a, a clinician, because I believe he’s a, he was a, a therapist, I believe. And just talking about like his lived experience that also is impacted by Christian privilege. I had never thought of my religious identity as one in which I experienced privilege. (31m 30s): Hmm. So being, being a black man in the United States, being a gay man in the United States, I was all kinds of, of acquainted and had all kinds of evidence as to the places and moments where I was not treated equitably and didn’t have to surrender any of that. But this was a moment where I had to, I, I really came to this thing like, huh. So as black as I am, and as gay as I am, because I come from a Christian background, not even practicing as I did as a child, there are things in life that I have privilege around. There are concerns about daily living that I do not have simply because I come from that background, not even fully fully practicing it any longer. (32m 20s): So I would say for me now, my kind of like moral drive around being a tannenbaum and leading tannenbaum has to do with that realization that I probably had about 16 years ago. That there’s a responsibility that I had and have as someone who was raised Christian in the United States and even has had an education in what it means for me personally to be a person who respects various religious and spiritual traditions and the experiences of people who are not connected to religion at all. (33m 1s): Yeah. It’s, you know, that’s one of the ways privilege operates right. Is that you don’t see it when you’re the beneficiary of it. Right. And I, you know, I, I know that I, my friends who are trans have talked about, especially who’ve been like, oh, when I transitioned, I suddenly, I like really got a crash course in it because I like saw the ways in which the world treated me differently. Yes. And I, as I’ve been, as I converted to ju to ju to Judaism a few years ago, I’m like, oh, I like, I, I, yeah, I see it. And I, I, I think that, like, I oftentimes hear people say like, well, America’s like not a Christian nation. And I’m like, I don’t know, like ask any non-Christian, right. (33m 42s): Like, ask anyone who’s like something else, right? Like, if you’re like an atheist, but your parents celebrate Christmas and you celebrate Christmas, like Yeah. Yeah. Like, you’re not Christian in some ways, but like in other ways you kind of are. And so like yeah, I think one of Those things that’s really interesting, sort of be on the other end of it and be like, oh yeah, like the America in particular is like really oriented around Christianity, whether that’s Jesus Christianity or Christmas Christianity. Like they’re, they’re both expressions of, of it. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that there’s, there’s something about when things become implicit, and we generally tend to focus more on the explicit because that tends to be the shiny ball that people can kind of like look at and scream at and react to. (34m 30s): But what we don’t necessarily take enough time to consider is how long it took for things to, that were and are religious to become such a part of the culture and the experience that nobody even thinks about its relationship to religion any longer. It’s just the way it’s or the way it’s supposed to be. And those are usually good catchphrases as to, oh, there’s something going on, there’s something more that I need to investigate here. So your work at Tannin Bomb, obviously there’s like very specific sort of channels and areas of focus for people who are gonna be the, the most likely to get involved. (35m 16s): You know, healthcare professionals, corporate leaders, things like that. If there’s just someone at home listening and they’re like, I don’t know, I’m just like a, I’m like a queer person and I’m like really interested in what Reverend Mark here is saying, And I like, I, I’m like, I’m hungry for more. Like, what are some suggestions for of steps that those folks might, might take? Like is it getting involved with you somehow? Is it practices for themselves? What does that look like? So I think one of the things that, well, there are a couple of ways. So one is we have had a Faith and Pride series for going on for a couple of years. And I would really encourage people to check that out just to see not just, you know, my mad rantings, but you know, what are other people from other traditions talking about in terms of their experience of faith and pride. (36m 3s): Because we really are trying to, and would really welcome, like if people wanted to share, we have kind of like a, it’s through a device called a system called Memory Fox, where people can like, respond to some prompts about their experience of their intersection, of their life, of faith and, and their life and pride and like how does, how do, what are some of the lessons they’ve learned and experiences that they’d wanna share. So that’s one way for people who just wanna learn more about Tannin Beum. We have something called Coffee with Mark. I mean, I, I, it, it just, I can’t barely get it out of my mouth ’cause it’s just so crazy to be talking about yourself in the third person. But it’s the opportunity for members of our community, both old and new, to find out kind of like, what are the new things that we are doing and what are some of the projects that we’re working on? (36m 55s): And really to ask people, answer people’s questions about, about our work. So those are two really good, immediate ways to get involved. Cool. And it also might be that they could nudge folks at their work, people and leadership, or at the employee resource group representatives to go to go check you out too as well. They, you know, you know, if it happened that way, that would be okay. Like it wouldn’t be a bad thing. Sure, sure, sure, sure, sure, sure. Well, so if like folks want to stay connected with you personally and or tenon bomb as the organization Yes. Like, what are the best ways to do that? Yeah, so I am on LinkedIn, so anyone can find me as Mark Fowler, Mark E Fowler on LinkedIn. (37m 40s): We also have an Instagram account, which is, I believe at Tannenbaum Center. And I we’re, you know, constantly posting. And that’s an account where there’s, it’s, you know, you’re gonna get a response immediately. We’re also on Facebook and on X so people can follow me and follow us there as well. Awesome. And we like to close out by asking like, what’s one thing that’s bringing you joy these days? Oh, definitely spending time with friends and family is, is bringing me joy. This past weekend I was at my grand and niece’s, if that’s the way you say it, my niece’s daughter’s second birthday party. Mm. (38m 20s): Nothing better than, you know, two year olds and other kids running around, jumping in and out of the pool, eating stuff that they shouldn’t, all of that. And spending time with, you know, my sister and her children and my mother. And you know, this is a time for community And I really do, I’m mindful of the numbers of people on the planet that do not have an experience of community. So when, when I I, I don’t take for granted the numbers of places and spaces where I am welcome as that line from Cheers where everybody knows my name and they don’t necessarily care about what I do, but they just know and appreciate me. (39m 9s): So that’s something that gives me joy. I love that. Well, thank you so much for being here, Reverend Mark, it’s been an absolute pleasure. Thank you so much, Brian. The Queer Theology podcast is just one of many things that we do at Queer Theology dot com, which provides resources, community, and inspiration, fort LGBTQ Christians and straight cisgender supporters. To Dive into more of the action, visit us at Queer Theology dot com. You can also connect with us online on Facebook, Twitter, Tumblr, and Instagram. We’ll see you next week. The post Exploring Interfaith with Reverend Mark E. Fowler appeared first on Queer Theology.

We’re showcasing another throwback episode for this week and this one is the beginning of a series we did on the Gospel of Mark. Mark is one of our favorite books of the Bible. There is so much richness to the history in Mark and for this first episode in the series, we look at the context and time in which this gospel was written. We had such a good time diving deep into this sacred story, and trying to pull out new insights for today. There is so much relevance that can be carried into our own lives from these ancient texts.    Resources: Listen to the full series on Mark Week 2: What’s the Deal With the Pigs? Week 3: Healing and Oppression Week 4: When Empires Crumble Join our online community at  Sanctuary Collective Community  If you want to support the Patreon and help keep the podcast up and running, you can learn more and pledge your support at patreon.com/queertheology The post Throwback: The First Gospel – Mark  appeared first on Queer Theology.

We have both found ourselves living in really different communities – Brian in New York City, and Shay in rural Kansas. That got us to thinking about the contrasting religious experiences of living in urban and rural settings and reflecting on how these environments shape understandings of community, spirituality, and the presence of the Divine. There has been a theme of going to the desert or the quiet of the country to hear God, but what if paying attention and tuning in helps us find God in everyday city life as well? We emphasize the need for connection and community in both urban and rural contexts, ultimately leading to a deeper understanding of faith and presence in diverse spaces.   Takeaways We are living in two very different places. The spaces we inhabit shape our religious imagination. Cities are often seen as sites of wickedness compared to gardens. Urban areas provide more safety nets than rural communities. There is a sense of community in rural areas that can be lacking in cities. Religiosity can feel overt and uncomfortable in rural settings. Community hospitality is often stronger in smaller towns. Finding God requires training our attention to the divine in everyday life. Paying attention to the details can reveal the presence of God. Both urban and rural settings have unique challenges and opportunities for faith.   Chapters (02:20) Exploring Urban vs. Rural Spirituality (05:03) The Role of Community in Different Spaces (11:32) Finding God in Everyday Life (16:57) Attention and the Divine in Our Environments Resources:.  Say Yes by Andrea Gibson Join our online community at  Sanctuary Collective Community    If you want to support the Patreon and help keep the podcast up and running, you can learn more and pledge your support at patreon.com/queertheology This transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors or omissions. (9s): Welcome to the Queer Theology Podcast. I’m Brian G Murphy. And I’m father Shannon, T l Kearns. We’re the co-founders of Queer Theology dot com and your hosts from Genesis, revelation. The Bible declares good news to LGBTQ plus people, and we want to show you how Tuning each week on Sunday for conversations about Christianity, queerness and transness, and how they can enrich one another. We’re glad you’re here. Hello there. And welcome to August. If you’re in the Northern hemisphere, I hope that you are staying cool. It’s blistering here where I am not sure about where you are, Shannon, of how hot it’s where you are, yet it’s blistering there too. He’s nodding his head. And for our southern hemisphere friends, I hope you’re enjoying your winter. I saw on a update from someone that we follow in Australia and he was saying it’s like five degrees Celsius there. (54s): So that’s, that’s wild. ’cause I’m like, that sounds delightful to me right now. And so before we started recording this, Shannon And I were just sort of like catching up on our lives and it occurred to us that We are living in two very different places and we were just sort of like reflecting on the sort of like what it, what it means to like be somewhere. So I am at, at the time of this recording, I’m living in New York City and it’s a population of like around, I forget like 9 million, 8 million. And Shannon is living in independent, Shannon is living in a small town in Kansas, which is a population of about 8,000. So wildly different experiences. (1m 36s): And I think that like, I don’t know, there’s like something about, we both live in America obviously, and there’s something about like real America and like what is real America when people say that they probably actually mostly mean like suburban red states. And I’m obviously in a blue state, but not in the suburbs and neither is really in the suburbs. And we’re just thinking about like the ways in which God has talked about being present in cities, not in cities in the desert, not in the desert. And we just think there’s like something there about place and location. And so we want to sort of explore that together. So like sh anything else to sort of add to that sort of setup, Shay? So I, I just think it’s also interesting in this current moment that we’re in to like reflect upon how the spaces that we’re in shape our religious lives and, and in some ways like our religious imagination and also like how we might be able to both find God in all of the spaces that we’re in, but also like help to potentially challenge the imagination of the, of the space we’re in if it needs it. (2m 40s): Right. Yeah. Yeah. And I I I would actually probably posit that like both the spaces that we’re in need some kind of challenging. Yeah. It’s just gonna look really different. Yeah. First off, what I was thinking, what prompted this was I had was journaling a little while ago And I was reflecting upon the ways in which desert imagery gets used in religious texts that, you know, the Israelites wandered in the desert, Jesus went out into the desert. And then even like post post scripture, like especially within Christianity, there’s like the desert fathers sort of Christian monastics, Christian hermits. There’s sort of like this sort of the sense that sort of aloneness can be like one way that you access God. (3m 24s): And there’s sort of I think a romanticizing about the countryside, the country solitude from Walt Whitman to like classic American paintings, just sort of, when we talk about quote unquote real America, what sort of, what image sort of conjures that to mind there. And I don’t know, I was just thinking like there’s like a hustle and a bustle and an electricity sort of in the air in New York City and like what if God is just as much in like the sparks on the subway track and in the hiss of the steam coming up from the manhole and in the honks of the taxi cabs as God is in the rustling of the wind and the pitter-patter of drizzle on the riverbed. (4m 12s): And yeah, so I think that there’s, so I was like wanting to like reclaim urban life thinking about the ways in which, you know, Gotham in, in Batman comics is sort of like this like place of decay and crime and Sodom and gamar, these like, sort of like cities being dangerous. And the reality is I just Googled it, like 82% of Americans live in cities and urban areas. So like real America is like cities like this is like where people actually live. And so there’s like something there, which is not to say cities are perfect, there’s like gross economic inequality in many cities, especially like in New York City. (4m 54s): But so I, yeah, so there’s, but like, so I yes. I’m just like noodling on on that. And so like, I guess like what are the ways in which like, ’cause Shay you’ve lived in both cities Yeah. And rural areas. And so like what are the ways in which, and you, you like what from like rural to city back to rural, and it’s like what are some ways in which your understanding of like what it means to live in the country or in the city have like shifted and also how you’ve experienced God in in those places? Yeah, I mean, just to, just to touch on a couple of things that you said, you know, one of the things that jumps out at me in thinking about imagery, right? We see in, in the things that you mentioned, Gotham, Saddam, and Kimura. (5m 34s): But in general, like all throughout scripture there is this sense of cities as sites of wickedness as opposed to gardens, right? That there is always this like juxtaposition between the, the city and the garden, which I, I find really kind of fascinating and, and like you said, we do know that there are gross economic inequalities in cities and yes. Also in rural communities, like yeah, totally be rural. But one of the things that I think is, is interesting is that there’s also much better safety nets Yeah. Inside of cities. And like we can talk about like there are lots of reasons for that. (6m 17s): Not all of them good, right? Like there there has been like a massive, you know, economic pull out of rural communities that has like devastated many of the things that yeah would have been historically safety nets in the past. And, and so like that’s a problem. But I do think that there is just simply because of like not only density of population, but also like density of resources that there are more protections for you should you need it, right? There are, there are shelters that you can go to, there are organizations that can possibly provide for your needs in ways that like don’t exist in, in the town that I’m in, like I think there’s maybe a shelter. (7m 10s): And yet there is also like poverty and people experiencing homelessness in a city of 8,000 people. And so one could also say like, the failures of the rural community to not take care of, of their population is higher. So like that was one thing that kind of stuck out to me as you were talking. I also reflect upon how, especially where I am, I, I think that there is a combination, particularly here in Kansas and in Oklahoma where I’m spending some time where we’re not just rural, we’re also, it’s still kind of considered the Midwest, but it is, it feels south to me in a way. (7m 56s): Like I’ve never lived this far south before. There is an overt religiosity everywhere I go. Like I have never been told to have a blessed day more in my life than the last like two years in a not sarcastic way, right? Like, I think people have told me to have a blessed day on the internet and in, in yeah. Urban spaces, but it was sarcastic here it’s like actually genuine. And so, but so I think about like how that overt religiosity kind of plays out and, and also it is expected that everyone is on the same page and, and on board with that religiosity, with those expressions and that you are grateful for them. (8m 46s): And so I find myself often deeply uncomfortable in both like, oh, that was a very sweet and encounter at the quick trip, but also like, why are, why are we saying that to people and what is the assumption behind that? And not to mention like the fact that there are, I often joke about the town that I’m living in, it feels like there are more churches than people and like how, how does that play out? And like the assumption is that you go to church, but there are all of these tiny churches, right? And like how does that impact how we’re taking care of our community and showing up for each other and, and is there a sense of I take care of the people in my congregation but not this other congregation. (9m 26s): And I think that that’s really fascinating too, all while saying I, I do feel like there is definitely a more community minded spirit here in Kansas than I experienced in Minneapolis. And I think partially that is ’cause like Minneapolis is kind of a weird beast of a city in that it is very Midwest and like lots and lots of people grew up in Minneapolis and so like they have their friends that they’ve had their friends since kindergarten. So, and, and so as someone who moved there, it was very hard to find and make community. It was just not set up for that in, in the ways that like when I moved to Kansas, even before I moved, I already had a community here. (10m 14s): Yeah. Because they were just so like excited to welcome people and especially excited to like, welcome outsiders and that was not something I experienced in Minneapolis. And so I think that like there is a hospitality here, right? That is not the hospitality that I experienced in, in the city of Minneapolis. It also reminds me like when you show up to a small church or a small synagogue, like often, especially like if you’re younger, like, and like that, they’re like just like so excited that it’s like there’s someone new. And so I could see moving to this small town, you are like not young, but you’re not old. You’re like in your forties, you’re queer, you’re an artist. (10m 56s): And so I could imagine those types of people in your small town being like, PE people, people like you don’t move here. So we’re like, we’re so excited about that. Whereas like in Minneapolis it’s like, oh, you’re like a queer artist, like moving to a city like cool. We got, we have a lot of those already. Yeah. Yeah. So there’s an element that just like, I, I see that parallel there. Yeah, I, I remember when I was living in Los Angeles, another like, yeah, the other, one of the other largest cities in America, I remember my, my predominantly LGBT synagogue was partnering with Sage, the sort of nonprofit for LGBT, older adults and elders to do like a Hanukkah party for like the Jewish folks, a part of that organization. (11m 40s): And I remember being like, oh yeah, like if you’re old and you live in a city, like, especially like if you’re a queer person, like you can be part of sage and then like the 20 somethings and the 30 somethings and the 40 somethings from like the queer synagogue will come and celebrate Hanukkah with you. Like, and they can just like hop on the bus and get there. Whereas like if you live somewhere else, you have to drive further. You’re just more spread out. There might not be like a d there’s only so many queer people in your, in your small town that there is just sort of like a critical mass of people that makes, especially for queer life, there’s like a vibrancy there that there’s not, there’s a, it’s a different type of vibrancy in small, like small town gay bars. (12m 22s): And so I was like sort of struck by that element of it. And I do think that like, it’s really easy in big cities to feel surrounded by people and alone. I think because people have their lives and their friends or like, and sometimes in big cities like their careers and so they’re just sort of like go, go, go, go, go. And so like, it can be harder to plug in and make those connections and also if you like, are able to sort of take the time and find those people that like, there’s something really special about being able to, I don’t know, like I live in the same building as two of my friends, right? (13m 11s): Like when I, I’ve like often lived within walking distance of like seven friends, eight friends, which is when I lived in the suburbs, like I had some, like a few friends in my neighborhood, but most friends I had to drive to get to. And so there’s just sort of like this closeness that, that makes like casual connections easier or like spur of the moment connections easier. And that, because especially in New York City, it’s a very public transit heavy city like millionaire CEOs and homeless people are like riding the same subways together. And so there’s like no illusions of like separateness, like we are physically smushed together and have to figure out how to occupy the same space together. (13m 52s): Which is like, not to say that like the millionaires are like suddenly like more generous or like not racist because of that experience, but there’s just sort of like a, it’s like a different, it, there’s like orients you to the other in a different way. And I, you know, I it’s, it’s interesting when folks come from other places to visit of all different types of backgrounds that there’s like the, the city can like feel scary to them ’cause there’s just like people everywhere and it’s loud and there’s someone asking for money and there’s like someone sleeping on the corner and like, what do you do with all of that? And it’s like someone who’s lived in a city my entire adult life, it’s just like, oh, these are just like the people that make up the city with me. You don’t actually have to be scared of them. (14m 32s): I’m scared of being in, in the suburbs or, or, or like in a rural place where it’s like there’s no houses for as far as I can see. It’s dead silent. Like that’s terrifying to me. Like I want, I want to like be able to hear the person on the other side of my wall and then there’s like this, like this closeness that there to me feels like some sort of Divine synergy. And it’s interesting because as you’re talking, I I think that that same communal closeness is in rural communities, right? And it’s the sense of there are only so much of us, so we have to figure out how to get along, right? Like yeah, if you, you can’t, if you get mad at the one person who owns the one restaurant in town, like you gotta figure that out because there’s nowhere else to go. (15m 21s): Or like there’s one guy who, you know, mows lawns or shovel snow. So like yeah, you gotta, you gotta, it’s like the town mechanic. Exactly. You know, there aren’t a lot of choices and there is beauty in that, right? It’s you like figure out, you know, like you said, how to get along, you figure out how to build community informed community. And I think that like the difference, right? People I think often conflate rural with suburban, which is like very different. Like there is a, there is a, an illusion of self-sufficiency that one can have when you live in the suburbs that is like not possible in either urban spaces or rural spaces. (16m 4s): Like it’s just not, there is no illusion that like I’m making it on my own when I have this community around me. Right? And I, I look at, I look at that And I, there was a, I I think I’ve told this story before of like when I first moved here and the bed that I ordered like wasn’t getting put together correctly and within 10 minutes someone had found like someone with a metal grinder to like fix the bed that I had ordered from Amazon. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. And in a way that like had I been in another space, I would’ve, you know, driven to loads in the suburbs and like, or purchased a new whatever and this was a real sense of community like gathering around to make, make this possible. (16m 51s): And I also think that there’s something here in, And I don’t know, I don’t know what this is exactly, but like I’m thinking about like for queer progressive people of faith, there are challenges in both in finding and making community and like living out your religious life in both urban and rural spaces. Like here the closest like overtly affirming church that I feel like would have my back is almost an hour away, right? And so like if I want to make, if I wanna be a part of a church community, like I’m probably going to have to travel in, in a different way and in the, in the midst of the like overt religiosity, which in some cases seems like it would make engaging in faith easier. (17m 45s): It actually sometimes feels like for a trans person in rural America, like it actually feels less easy, right? That they’re, that that overt Christian display like sometimes makes me feel unsafe or like excluded. Yeah. I’m not in a space where I can, where I can worship. Whereas like I think in, in urban spaces, right? Like you have options, there are options of congregations and synagogues and all different sorts of, of places to engage in worship. And also there are so many options of so many things that like engaging in religious community is a choice and it’s not a choice that people are always making. (18m 29s): And so like how do you build that community? Which I think brings me to like my larger point in all of this. And I was thinking of this in the very, from the very beginning when you were talking about, you know, God in the his of the subway and the manhole covers that like, all of this brings me back to an aspect of attention and like how do we train our attention to find the divine where we are? Right? And I think that like there is this sense of back the monastics, right? There was this sense of like, there is so much happening in the city that I have to go to the caves and the desert and the whatever in order to have the space and silence to like hear the voice of the divine. (19m 14s): Yeah. But I think that almost all of them would then say it, the intention was never to then remain there. It was always to then train yourself to then come back to the community with a new musculature to be able to hear right where you are. Yeah. And I think that that is the, the work that’s in front of us of like how do we train ourselves to tune in and pay attention where we are to finding the divine. Yeah. I’m, I’m, that really resonates with me this sort of like paying attention piece that, so I turned 40 like a few weeks ago at this point and Andrea Gibson actually died the day before I turned 40, which was like just weird clusterfuck of emotion for me. (20m 3s): But I was just like thinking about the ways in which they, Andrea Gibson, like really like paid attention and it was like in the particularities and the specificities of their poems and their observations and their musings like that I think is what really like crackled and sizzled for people. Like, I, like I, I remember the first, the first poem I think that I ever introduced me to Andrew Gibson, like, I don’t know 15 years ago was, was probably say, I think it’s called Say Yes When Two Violins are placed in a room, if a court on one violin is struck, the other violin will sound that note. (20m 45s): If this is your definition of hope, this Is for you. And it’s like it starts with this like specific thing of like a string on a violin and then like that becomes like hope. And I don’t know, like a violin isn’t inherently hopeful, right? But like there’s, they, they noticed something in this like two violins strings resonating togetherness of it. And it reminds me of like Mary Oliver’s poem, instructions for Living a Life Pay Attention, be astonished to Tell about it. And that like, I think that’s the work that we have been doing here. What that that we before like rambling about before, before I started recording this was like that I, as I was turning approaching 40 and turning 40, I’ve just been like reflecting on my life and very, very content with it and very pleased with it. (21m 35s): And there’s been a lot that’s gone really well and a lot that’s gone really terribly. And I think that my life today looks like absolutely nothing like what I hoped it would look like when I was 12 or 16 or 18 or 22 or 24. And also like, it’s so fucking fabulous. Like it’s just fantastic. Like, I’m so grateful for it. And, And I think that so much of that is because of the paying attention that queering theology has done for me, that I’m so thankful that I’m queer because it like forced me to question everything around me. (22m 15s): And even before we Shay you, you And I started doing this work together, I was like, I really had to like figure out like what is my life? Who am I, what is the purpose of life? What is God? What is the universe? Where do I fit into all of this? I didn’t have all of the answers to all that figured out, but like queerness and not fitting into the culture at, in 1998, 2003, whenever like forced me to this sort, like forced me to pay attention And that like, the more that I do this work, it’s like I feel like that’s where the juicy stuff of life is. And I think that this, this work, like we have a podcast, we have a book coming out next year. (22m 56s): We don’t, it’s spoiler alert, we don’t make very much money from it. So like, we’re certainly not doing it for the money, but like, it, it is sort of like a work that we bring ourselves to, but like it’s, we started this work because we were sort of doing it as a personal practice already on our own and we found immense value in it and we wanted to share that with others. And so like, I know this started with the city and the country, but like I think that there’s like something here about the paying attention to it. Like God is already everywhere. It’s if you’ll pay attention and look for them, will you, will you find God? And so like, yeah, I’m just, I would love to hear from y’all also like where are the ways in which like God shows up like in your particular place because like, I only in the same way that we’re always talking about, like, everyone has different experiences of queerness and so we need them all to fully understand the divine. (23m 49s): I’ve only ever lived in suburban Maryland in Los Angeles and New York City and with some stints in, with some stints in like, not like suburban Boston and a little bit of time in, in small town Michigan. But like I’ve, I’ve only have a handful of experiences, right? And so like where are the ways in which like God is showing up in y’all’s life? I dunno, send us an email or come onto Instagram and, and share that with us. Anything oth other, any other like sort of like musings on God in cities and God in the country. For you, Shea I just echo what you said. You know, I think that we can find the divine everywhere and, and part of the work then is like, how do we, how do we tune ourselves to, to notice better? (24m 41s): And I, I think, you know, reading poetry is one way and dabbling in writing poetry, even bad poetry is another way. And, you know, going to, again, the, the artists always can help us point the way forward. And so what, who are the, who are the artists that you’re looking to right now as, as people who are helping you to see in new ways? And would love to hear that too. If you wanna share. The Queer Theology podcast is just one of many things that we do at Queer Theology dot com, which provides resources, community, and inspiration for LGBTQ Christians and straight cisgender supporters. To dive into more of the action, visit us at Queer Theology dot com. (25m 22s): You can also connect with us online on Facebook, Twitter, Tumblr, and Instagram. We’ll see you next week. The post Rural God, City God appeared first on Queer Theology.

Andrew Gurza (@andrewgurza) joins Brian this week on the podcast to talk about sex, disability, and his new book, “Notes From a Queer Cripple.” Andrew is an award winning Disability Awareness Consultant and the Chief Disability Officer and Co-founder of Bump’n, a sex toy company for and by disabled people.  Andrew uses they/he pronouns and identifies proudly as disabled.  He is also the host of Disability After Dark: The Podcast Shining a Bright Light on Disability Stories. In this conversation, Andrew shares their journey as a queer disabled person, discussing their experiences with sexuality, disability advocacy, and the importance of creating inclusive spaces. They delve into their work as a speaker and author, emphasizing the need for open discussions about sex and disability. The conversation highlights the challenges faced in the community, the impact of critiques, and the joy of connecting with others through shared experiences.   Takeaways Andrew has been a disability consultant for 14 years. They emphasize the importance of discussing sex and disability openly. Andrew’s book is a love letter to queer disabled people. They advocate for the inclusion of disabled sexuality in mainstream conversations. Andrew’s experiences with sex work have transformed their relationship with intimacy. They believe that disabled people deserve to explore their sexuality freely. Andrew’s journey includes creating a sex-positive community for disabled individuals. They highlight the need for more accessible spaces for disabled people to express their sexuality. Andrew’s work aims to challenge societal norms around disability and sexuality. They encourage others to see the beauty in their bodies and desires.   Chapters (02:40) Talking About Sex and Disability (05:37) The Journey to Disability Advocacy (08:29) The Book: Notes from a Queer Cripple (11:19) Sex Work and Intimacy (14:09) The Importance of Connection (17:01) Embracing Sexuality and Body Positivity (19:50) The Power of Humor in Disability Advocacy (22:52) The Influence of Queer Media (25:10) Creating Inclusive Spaces for Disabled Queer People (28:32) The Impact of the Deliciously Disabled Party (31:07) Navigating Critiques and Misunderstandings (34:35) The Complexity of Disability and Sexuality (37:21) The Importance of Community and Support (40:19) Final Thoughts on Sexuality and Disability   Resources:. Notes From a Queer Cripple by Andrew Gurza Learn more about Andrew Gurza https://www.andrewgurza.com/about Join our online community at  Sanctuary Collective Community   This transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors or omissions. (9s): Welcome to the Queer Theology Podcast. I’m Brian G Murphy. And I’m father Shannon, T l Kearns. We’re the co-founders of Queer Theology dot com and your hosts from Genesis, revelation. The Bible declares good news to LGBTQ plus people, and we want to show you how Tuning each week on Sunday for conversations about Christianity, queerness and transness, and how they can enrich one another. We’re glad you’re here. Hello. Hello. Hello and welcome back to another episode of the Queer Theology Podcast. Today we’ve got a really exciting interview with Andrew Gza. Have been a fan and follower of Andrew Online. I think I first saw him through the website, hammer Rose, and I’ve been following his Twitter and his Instagram listening to his podcast for many, many, many years now. (50s): And so I’m just like a little, little bit of a fanboy over this interview. Andrew Gurza is an award-winning disability awareness consultant uses they he pronouns and identifies proudly as disabled. Their work has been featured on A-B-B-C-C-B-C Daily Extra Gay Times, uk, Huffington Post, the Advocate Everyday feminism mashable out.com, and several anthologies. He was a subject of an award-winning national film board of Canada documentary called Picture This. Andrew has guested on a number of podcasts including Dan Savage’s, Savage Love, and Cameron Esposito’s Query. He has spoken all over the world on sex disability and what it means to be a queer cripple. He is also the host of Disability After Dark, The Podcast Shining a Bright Light on Disability Stories, which won a Canadian podcast award in 2020. (1m 36s): One was a queer tea award nominee and was chosen as an honoree of the 2020 Web Awards. The show is available on all platforms. Andrew’s also the creator of the viral hashtag Disabled People are hot and relevant to today’s conversation. He’s the author of a new book, Notes From a Queer Cripple. I so enjoyed talking with Andrew And I think that you are going to enjoy the conversation as well. So let’s dive in. Andrew, thank you so much for being here with me today. Brian, thank you for having me here today. It’s such a pleasure. I am like a little bit fanboying. I first, this is, I think, I think you know this. I first like found out about you years ago, I think by way of Hammer Rose. (2m 16s): I think I saw you in in a adult film on the internet. That one. Yeah. Yeah. And I was like, he’s hot and fun and interesting And I wanna like, I like checked you out on social media And I was like, oh, you’ve got a podcast. So I was, I subscribed to your podcast and I’ve been following your Instagram and your tweets for like, at least since 2016 if not longer. And so thank you. When we start, when you started following me back and we started talking online, I was like, ah, this is so cool. And then I found out we have, we both independently got booked deals and then found out we have the same editor. And so that’s like been cool that that sort of like serendipitously worked out. And so you’re a podcaster, a disability advocate and educator. (2m 58s): You’re now a published author and like an all around like really like rad person. And so I’m, I’m so glad to have you on this podcast. Thank you so much. So today, like just set the stage for where we’re going. I wanna talk about like your experiences like as a like queer, disabled person and also like in general and also about your like book in particular. So let’s get started. Cool. And ready? Yeah. Let’s do it. Yeah. So can you like, share, one of the ways that we like to start the interview is by asking folks like, imagine that you’re out like a, a fun queer dinner party or a cocktail party. (3m 39s): Like how would, how do you introduce yourself? I would say, hi, my name’s Andrew. I’m a freelance disability consultant And I give talks about sex and disability. I’ve been doing it now for 14 years, which is really weird and a long time. But I’ve been doing it for, yeah, freelance for about 14 years now, which feels like such a long time. But I talk predominantly about sex and disability ’cause no one else does. Yeah, totally. You know, I think that for many folks listening who have like some sort of religious background, like talking about sex in public can be kind of scary. And I, I, you know, we at Queer Theology com talk about it a lot. (4m 20s): And so like can you share what it was like for you to start talking about sex, like in a public way? I was, yeah. I was never afraid of it. I was never scared of it. I’ve always been a very sexually open person. From the time I knew that I was queer at like six years old to going through puberty, I always knew that like, this shouldn’t be a scary thing. But what I probably didn’t, didn’t count for is that people would be afraid of me and my disability because of it. And so I made the choice when I was done school, I went to school for legal studies and law. So I made the choice when I was done school to, I was looking for jobs And I was looking for work And I said, I wanna do disability consulting. (5m 5s): I wanna be a speaker on disability. And everybody went, that’s a nice hobby, that’s not a real job. Hmm. And I kind of went, well fuck you, I’m gonna make it my job. Watch me make it my job. And I made a card up this to print, printed my name on it, said I’m a disability awareness consultant, having no idea what that was. And said I wanted, here’s what I do. And I started contacting HuffPo and the Advocate and, and like men’s health magazines and every, every magazine where a queer person would go. And I said, I wanna write for free, not anymore, but at the time when I was up for free, I wanna write about sex and disability. Do you have anybody that does that? And they were like, no. (5m 45s): And I was like, great, can I be the one that does that for you? And so I just started putting it out there publicly because I wanted to do education, but also I wanted to be honest, I wanted to get laid. I wanted gay men and queer men to notice me. And I was like, if I put my body out there and, and push that I’m a sexual being, maybe finally I’ll get laid or I’ll go on some dates or I’ll meet somebody. Yeah. And so there was a professional reason for it and there was a sexual reason for it. It was like, I want people, I want queer men specifically to know that I’m here too. Yeah. And to get paid while you’re attracting queer men to have sex with you. Yeah. So that’s a double win. And to like, make some money. (6m 26s): ’cause everybody said, oh, it’s a hobby, it’s not a real job. It can be your hobby. And I kept being like, well, I don’t want to be a hobby. It’s, it’s what I wanna do. And so I was really disheartened by the lack of community support. But I also was thankful because there was nobody doing it in my area at the time. I mean, I was in Toronto and I’m still in Toronto because there was nobody at the time doing it. I, I kind of cornered that market locally and said, okay, I’m gonna be the guy. And that led to like, I was on one girl five days for a season, which is a little Canadian pop show. It happened like 10 years ago. (7m 6s): I did a season of that Talking About Sex and Disability. I’ve done porn, I’ve done like tv I’ve done like, because I refused to be like, I’m not going to, I’m not gonna listen to you. I’m gonna do this. Yeah. You sc was my follow-up question, which was gonna be, so you’ve, you’ve talked about like writing. What are some of the other ways that you do disability advocacy and consulting? I have a great podcast called Disability After Dark where I talk, I talk, I used to talk only about sex And I got bored. So now it’s an Everything Disability podcast, but for the first like 200 episodes, it was predominantly sex and disability. So I do that once a week, once, once every other week. (7m 48s): And I do consulting And I do writing And I do tweeting. And I do like so many different things free. The joy of freelance is, it’s very flexible. You can do so many different things in one day for your job. And I love that. And so I do so many different things from talks to tweeting to, to Instagraming, to like doing lives, like doing stuff like this. It’s really, really cool that I can use my voice to talk about sexuality, queerness, and disability and in so many different ways. Yeah. Thank you for all of that. So one of the things, so you’ve got a book coming out or you have a book that is already out Notes From a Queer Cripple. (8m 30s): Yes. I Now I know that the like unsexy story is that like the publisher approached you about it, but like when you were thinking about what this book might be, how did you come up? Like why, why The Book that you ended up writing? Like why that book in that way? Well, that, that was in The Book that I wanted to write initially. I had written a, my spec outline was a lot broader, a lot more like, how do we make the queerness accessible to everyone? And they were like, that’s very nice. Can you hone it into disability and your community? Please can you just talk about your community? And I was like, okay. So I had to pivot and they were like, just tell stories like you would in your tweets and just talk, like those things you talk about in your tweets, make them longer for an essay. (9m 17s): Go. And so, like, that was really daunting for me ’cause I didn’t, I forgot how to write long form. I forgot how to do like, oh, I have to write pages and pages of this to make it make sense. And so like they said, we wanted you to write a love letter to queer, disabled people, but also give queer, non-disabled people a place to land. And so that’s kind of how The Book came to be. And really it’s a collection of seven Chapters of a bunch of stories of my formative years trying to be queer and disabled, trying to access sex, trying to, like trying to go to clubs, trying to go to, trying to make a porn, try like doing all these things but infusing disability in a way that I don’t think we’ve seen before. (10m 1s): And being unashamedly like queer about it. And I am disabling queer. I suck, I do this. I, and it’s very, very direct. And a lot of people who have read it, they love it. But there have been some that have said like, oh, it’s too heavy on the sex work. It’s too heavy on the sex chat. Why? And I think that’s important because so much of disability writing or queer writing doesn’t put the two worlds together of it. It’s very sanitized. Yeah. It was No time to do that. Yeah. One of the things that I, I noticed as I was reading your book was that like, obviously you have had very different experiences for me. (10m 44s): And also I recognized like my myself in many parts of it and sort of like parts of my own queer experiences and that like, there are some like through lines between many of our queer experiences and queer lives that are sort of like resonate across differences or ways in which your like experience with a disability. Like remind me of other experiences like not related to disabilities that I’ve had. Right. And so like, not to, not to universalize a, a particular story, but I feel like this is one of those moments where like disabled justice like helps everyone and like learning from disabled folks can sort of help you see your own self in a new light while also helping you see disability in a, in a new light as well. (11m 30s): Yeah. And I think, you know, I I, that was kinda the point of The Book. I wanted to tell everybody, like, you will become disabled, disability will be a part of your story. You might run into like the hottest disabled person at the club, and then disability becomes better, your story. And like how do you sleep with them? How do you have in with them? How do you get to know them all? All the stuff I talk about in The Book gives a non-disabled queer person, particularly queer men. And that’s kind of who, that’s kind of the community that I was speaking to was really queer men because they have so much ableism to unpack. So I wanted them to see queer, disabled sex is a possibility and how like sexy can be. (12m 13s): Yeah. How has your relationship to sex changed over like the course of your life? Oh, the course of my life. Well, as I share in The Book, my first sexual experience wasn’t super great. The guy, the guy that I was with call me a pity fuck Oh my god. To my face, which was, you know, real fun for me. Fuck Yeah. And so that was really, that was, I was 19 when that happened. It was a really hard thing to experience and things to kind of compartmentalize. And so it’s changed because I started using sex workers about nine years ago And I decided to hire a sex worker to have my needs met. (12m 57s): And it’s given me so much more confidence because I don’t have to wait on, I don’t have to like hope that some guy’s gonna like me. I can hire somebody to have my needs met. It’s turned my sexuality into a much less desire based thing and more of like a therapeutic thing when I see a sex worker, like, yes, there’s desire and there’s playfulness there and all those things, but because my body is has different needs, I treat it like going to see a physio every week or going like, I’ll see my sex worker every three months or something as a part of my therapeutic process. (13m 37s): So like I am, I went from wishing guys would, would write me back wishing guys would date me, wishing guys would like talk to me. And I still feel that way a lot of the time, but now with sex work as an option, I feel like, oh, I can get my knees met this way And I can at least have an orgasm or have intimacy the way that I want without worrying about all the other emotional stuff that comes along with that. Yeah. So before the podcast, before I started recording, I was complimenting the color of your wall, which I can see, but if you’re listening you probably can’t see. It’s, it’s this, this really beautiful bluish ish color. And you shared that like your regular sex worker came over and painted it for you and painted it naked. (14m 20s): And so I, I would imagine like many people listening when they think about sex work or imagining someone coming over and fucking and then leaving, and you’ve used words like therapeutic and also I know that like he also painted your wall for you while naked. And so like, can you talk about like, yes, it’s about sex, like, and also like what else is a part of that experience? Like, And I love that question. Sometimes it’s about intimacy. Sometimes, like he comes over and we watch Bob’s burgers and cuddle and like have a laugh. And sometimes we have sex and sometimes we don’t. And sometimes, like he sleeps over and we just watch a show. Like it’s, it’s so much, yes, there’s a sexual component there. (15m 3s): Of course there is. But we’ve been seeing, he’s my main sex worker. I’ve been seeing him now for almost eight years. So we’re really well attuned to each other. And it’s nice to have somebody that I can be like, I just wanna spend time with you. I don’t necessarily want us to mess around. I wanted to spend time with you. I wanna talk to you. Like sometimes we’ll just text and they’ll be like, Hey, how are you? How’s your day? How are you doing today? How are you feeling today? Like people think it’s this dark, dirty deed that’s happening, but really it’s building connection with somebody. And also, like, I’m aware that a lot of sex workers are students and teachers and, and people with three jobs trying to make it, trying to make ends mean. (15m 48s): So I’m aware that like by me helping him out transactionally, I’m actually supporting another marginalized person. And that’s like, there’s something really, really beautiful about that symbiotic relationship we have together. And I am, so like, when he came over and painted my house, that was right after COVID, not the COVID iss over, but like right after the first, the last big wave. So in 2021, like right after we were allowed to see each other again, and we hadn’t seen each other from March, 2020 to October, 2021. And we, we would have sessions like once every month, honestly. And so we didn’t see each other for like a year and a half and we were both like, we miss each other. (16m 31s): So in that session we talked for an hour about our lives and we like hugged and we tried a little bit and it was, you know, it was a nice like moment to have together. And so for me it’s so much deeper than just I’m gonna have the sexual experience, I’m gonna pay this guy for it, and then that’s it. Part of me, which is I didn’t have to do that. But I know that I, I think it’s the same as like any relationship. They all have. They all have, and we talked about this a minute ago, they all yeah. Have transactions somewhere. So if by me giving him 300 bucks an hour allows him to feed himself and for me to feel sexually fulfilled for an hour, like that’s a really cool thing that I got to do. (17m 16s): Yeah. And Be a part of. Yeah, I mean we, we talk about this on your podcast, but like my, like the line between like a spouse who works and a spouse who doesn’t work versus like a sugar baby, sugar daddy versus like quote unquote sex work. Those are like, those are blurry lines and whether it’s monetary transactions that are happening or like care, like we are all caring for one another. And so I think what, you know, what I I’m hearing from you is like, this should be an option for folks who wanna be able to take advantage of it. I mean, I’m gonna say it quite bluntly, it should be funded by the government, it should be funded by, like in Australia they have a disability support program called the National Disability Insurance Scheme. (18m 3s): And up until a while ago, they were funding sex work. Yeah. They were allowing, they were giving you a stipend every month to hire a worker to have your needs met. Like that is so critically important. Yeah. Yeah. And it’s, again, all we do sometimes is watch TV and have a laugh and yeah, we might get naked and be naked while that’s happening, but it’s not One time we went to the grocery store and he, he helped me buy groceries. Yeah. And we just had a laugh. It’s like, it’s so much more than what people think it is. Yeah. And I wish that they would see that like, these connections are important and when you have severe disabilities like I do, where my body doesn’t look quote unquote normative, when you meet somebody who paid or otherwise wants to spend time with you, you have to like capitalize on that as best you can. (18m 54s): One of the things that I’ve noticed about you over the years is that you’re able to talk really boldly and matter of factly about sex in general, about like your desires and experiences like about your body and your body parts and how they’re hot. And like I know that I’m, I would imagine like many people, people listening to this podcast, many of us have come from like more restrictive backgrounds where like talking about sex was like super taboo or we were like, felt ashamed about our bodies or our sexual desires. And I know that’s pro potentially also like part of your story as well. But like, how did you get to a place where you could just like, so boldly be like, like, this is my sex life. (19m 35s): I’ve got a, like a big dick and it’s really hot and like my body is sexy and like let’s have, like this is who I am. How, like how did you get there? Okay. Know, we’re not supposed to flirt, but every day you see I get a huge giant smile on my face. So just So, just so it makes very aware of that. Thank you. You know, some days I’m there and some days I’m not there. Like it’s, it’s really ebb and flow. Like some days I hate my body. Some days I hate my experience, but I know that if I’m vocal about my sex life and somebody with severe disabilities, somebody else with severe disabilities will listen to that and think, oh, if Andrew can talk about it so openly, maybe I can too. (20m 16s): And so I don’t always do it because I believe it. It’s sort of like a fake until I believe it in myself kind of thing. If I constantly push that I’m the sexiest disabled person you’ll ever meet, which I know is not true. There are way hotter disabled people than me. But like if I push that pretend thing around it, maybe eventually I can believe it too. And then it’ll be true. Yeah. And like did, like, did you just like, like how did you get that idea to do that? Or did like, were you inspired by someone else or did you like read it in a book? Did you like think it up yourself? I’ve always been provocative. I’ve always been somebody who like, who likes to push the boundaries a little bit. And so one time I was doing a magazine shoot for a magazine in Toronto called, now they’re now defunct, I think. (21m 3s): And they were doing like a Love your Body shoot. And so you had to go and be naked. And I went down with my friend to the studio And I got naked and they covered my bits And I did it. And so they, they put, they, they did the magazine, they went all over Toronto and then Global, the, the news called me and said, would you come on a segment? And I was like, okay, sure. So I did. And they were like, oh, why did you do this? And I jokingly said something like, oh, I think I’m deliciously disabled like funny. And I just like made the joke on the air as a joke because I like to be, you know, funny and quick. And then I was like, oh wait, there’s something there that I, And I can play with that And I can make the idea of being disabled really hot and really fun. (21m 47s): And then from that grew, the Disabled people are hot hashtag that I created. And then from that grew like the offer to be on TV. And like, I just was recently, I didn’t get it, but I was asked to audition for like that movie about Judy Human that’s coming out soon. And so all of my stuff has been to be like, you need to look at me, you need to see who I am. And I did it partially as a joke because I didn’t believe anybody would actually care. But then it turned into something. So like I didn’t do it thinking it would actually happen. I did it. Oh, let’s try and see what happens. Yeah. I love that. I’m guys, so every time you say something I have like three questions as a result. (22m 28s): ’cause it’s just so interesting. But so you, you, you mentioned that like at first you didn’t necessarily believe it and it’s like, I’m wondering like how it feels different. And you mentioned that you still don’t always believe it, but like, how does it feel different now than when you say like, I’m really hot or talk about your body or deliciously disabled or whatever it might be now versus like the first time you sort of like tentatively said it out loud. Well, now I know when I say it, people will pay attention to it. And now I know when I talk about it, it will, it will garner a response. Whereas when I first did it, I was like, nobody cares. Like, when I first put out Deliciously Disabled the first time, no one cared. (23m 10s): Like it wasn’t a big thing, but it, that turned into a sex party that I threw four disabled people and like, it, it’s just a ma It was a matter of me just trying stuff and seeing what, and I’m, I love Silly Punt and like, alliteration and like silly stuff. So like on apps like Grinder and Scruff and Sniffy, my name is either bar in a chair or like Big Dick trip or like, you know, super ballsy or like funny stupid stuff to make myself laugh because I think we take disability and that’s part of what Dly Disabled was too. We take disability so fucking seriously and it’s okay if we make fun of ourselves, it’s okay if we play with it a little bit. (23m 56s): And especially when it comes to our bodies and our desires and our, our sexual worth. It needs to be a bit of a game, otherwise it’s so not fun. Not fun. Yeah. And that feels very queer and the ways in which queer people have always used sort of like camp to like subvert things and to like lighten our spirits and keep us going. Yeah, exactly. And I I, I love camp. Like, I was raised on like ab fab And I was raised on like, you know, the bird cage And I was raised on so many, so much queer media that I didn’t realize was queer at the time. That looking back on it, I was like, of course I would go this way. Of course I would be this like flamboyantly queer, queer person. I remember like the very first queer movie that I watched that was like pointedly queer with my mom was was Priscilla Queen of the Desert. (24m 47s): And like I, we watched that the night I came out to her. And so like queerness has been all around me my whole life. And so I I And I love doing big silly gestures And I think disabled queer people deserve big, silly, sexy moments. And so when I do things like do a porn or do a, a show about sex and disability or do a post where I’m half naked and on Instagram or do a post where I’m like kissing and doing in my wheelchair, all that stuff’s important because it deserves a space just like everything everybody else does. Yeah. I think you’re like, I think you’re like a prophet. I think you’re a queer prophet. You’re doing really important work. (25m 27s): Wow. Wow. That that’s, that feels very nice but also very big. Wow. Yeah, I mean like, like in the, in the Jewish Bible, like with the, the prophets almost like they’re, they’re these, one of the things they do right is they like, they do these big gestures that are like meaningful in and of themselves, but also sort of like call attention to a larger issue. And so I think like what, what you do when you like post sexy pictures of yourself, it’s like both like you being sexy in and of yourself like, and also as like part of a larger thing that’s happening. And I know that you’re like inspiring and lots of other folks on the internet to, to see themselves in sexy ways or to see people who aren’t like them in, in other, in new sexy ways. (26m 9s): Yeah. Like, you know, And I, I, I hope that I can use my privilege as, as a white disabled person for somebody of color with disabilities to be like, I wanna do the same thing. I want to show that I ha that I deserve to be sexy too. And so I try to, I try to remember my privilege all the time and remember that in doing the work that I do, yeah, it’s fun and flirty and whatever, but it’s also, there’s such a bigger meaning behind it. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Can you talk a little bit about deliciously Disabled at the party and like what it was like to it plan this party and like what it was like to be at it? Yeah. The person And I that threw it, we had a falling out so I won’t speak to her part ’cause we don’t talk anymore. (26m 53s): Sure, sure, sure. And the, the shady is real. And there are many things I could say that I won’t because I’m a good podcaster And I know I’m not a great jam, but I also kind of wanted to, so there I sort of did. Yeah. But that was really fun to do that. We did it 10 years ago. We did it at a theater here in Toronto called Buddies in Bad Times Theater, which is like an iconic Toronto theater space. ’cause we couldn’t find a sex club that was accessible. So we needed to use a theater space. So they, they let us, and then we were just gonna do a play party, a simple play party that that honored disabled folks. (27m 33s): And that was all supposed to be. And then somebody did a press thing and they called it a disabled orgy. And I was like, oh, I don’t love that. But like that, that ran like wildfire. And then yeah. People from Howard Stern to the BBC were calling us to be like, can we come and film? And we were like, no, this is not, it’s not a joke to us. Like yeah, this is the real thing. And so we sold out, we had people on the night, we had people from around the block trying to get in that we had to say no to. Wow. And so, like, there were probably, I can’t remember exactly ’cause it was 10 years ago, but there were probably like 150 people there, which in that, in that space feels like a lot of people. (28m 17s): And it was packed. And I didn’t actually have sex that night, like a lot of people didn’t have sex. But it was a place to explore desire, explore sexuality, explore sensuality. And it was the first with kind. And I know there have been sexy ish play parties around that, but still there are not enough parties that uplift disability access and sexuality. And that’s what we wanted it to be. And that’s what it was like, we really tried to be like, oh, disabled. We had beds for if disabled people wanted to have sex, there were options. We had like lifts. We had things ready to go in case we wanted to have sex. And what I love about that party, we did that 10 years ago And I haven’t done it since. (28m 60s): But that party was the, the reason why in the new queers folk season that died, RIP they had a party disabled people fuck party that was based on the party that I threw. Oh, that’s so cool. So like, I am forever. And I remember going to the pretend party and seeing like a bunch of disabled folks and Hoyer lifts and like all the things that we had at my party. And it was so awesome that like this thing that I created that I never thought anyone would care about Yeah. Is now immortalized on a like iconic queer television show. Yeah. That’s incredible. (29m 39s): And I think that what you said just a moment ago where like this thing that I thought nobody would care about, like, and then there was 150 people. There was a line around the block that I think that that sometimes the, the we, we can feel so alone or like we’re the only one who wants this or who is this way and then, or that is a silly idea. And then just like, we’re not alone. And there’s like so much like potential impossibility out there if you’re willing to put yourself out there and take like, take some big risks. Oh yeah. And I, and almost every time I do a talk, somebody will say to me, Hey, would you ever do another one? Like what would you? And I, I always say like, well are you gonna pay me because Yeah, yeah, yeah. (30m 22s): We like, we didn’t get paid the first time and it was a lot of work and like I would do it again if you paid me real money. Yeah. And, and you guys dealt with all the logistics and then I got to just be the host. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. But like the reality of that and the backlash we got from queer people who said it was a bad idea. Artistic people. Artistic people who said How dare we use a theater space to have sex. Which is ironic because a lot of theater is Yeah. Very sexual. Yeah. Disabled people who told me that how dare I the party is a bad idea. Don’t do it. Like the backlash that we got from all sides of people. Yeah. We didn’t understand what we were really saying was disabled sexuality has value. (31m 6s): Let’s showcase that. Yeah. It’s all we were saying, it’s all the party really was like, I didn’t know sex in, i, I didn’t fuck around. I wa I wanted to a lot, but I was busy running around saying, oh my God, hi, thank you for being here. Oh my God. But like, it was just running Into sex party takes a lot of hard, practical, boring work science. So much work. And I am a bad hostess man. I did not want by like the 10th person, I was like, I don’t wanna say hi anymore. Like hop fun, bye. Like I wanted to fuck. And I didn’t get to do that ’cause I was working. But like the whole point of the party was people, disabled people deserve spaces to be obtusely sexual. (31m 47s): Yeah. Overtly sexual. To be slutty, to be dirty. Yeah. To be quote unquote inappropriate. We deserve spaces to do that. And the media backlash from all sides reminded me that we’re not quite ready to talk about sex and disability yet. Which is why I think my book also kind of rubs some people the wrong way. They’re not ready for how sexual it is. People have critiqued that they’re not ready for my discussions of sex work. People have critiqued that. My newest favorite critique is there’s a section in The Book where I talk about asking my care worker to help me set up a sex toy and like to help me use a sex toy. (32m 30s): And she did. And there’s a critique that I’m exploiting her. And I was like, well this, this, like of course I asked, I asked her if it was all right, of course. Like I checked before I did anything. Like this idea that disabled people can’t be sexual and have no, should not be allowed any avenue to ask for help to be sexual is really a problem. And so that’s why my book is so loud and so in your face and doesn’t hold back from the telling the truth. And I think people were afraid of that. I had somebody who critiqued it who also said like, oh, well if they’re not binary ’cause I use they, that they, and he pronouns, if they’re not binary, why are they only talking about men? (33m 13s): And I was like, because it’s my story and men are who I choose to sleep with. Like Yeah. And your gender is different than who you wanna have sex with also. Yeah, exactly. So I just, I find some of the critiques really narrow-minded because it shows that we have a lot of work to do. And it reminds me, And I’m thankful for the critiques, it reminds me that I’ll never behalf of a job, I’ll never not be working Yeah. To push these narratives and to push sex and disability positivity. And you know, I, but I’ve had also great reviews where people said, like The Book woke me up to things I didn’t see before The Book opened Something in me that I didn’t notice before. (33m 56s): Like really powerful reviews too. And it’s hard when you and you know, from also writing Yeah. Writing stuff. Like when you put something that is so personal to you out in the public sphere, it can be really hard. Yeah. I mean like, I I, that’s one of the things that I love about The Book. I mean, listeners will not be surprised that I love that book That’s very boldly sex, like sex word or sex positive. But like, it’s just like so, so needed and like such an antidote to like the shame and secrecy that so many of us has been like going indoctrinated to Yeah. To believe it is like that we should carry, carry around with us And well, you know, one of my favorite parts of The Book is, is you know, just talking about sex work in The Book, talking about like, my experience with my sex worker talking about the porn I did. (34m 49s): Like, it’s so bold. And I remember when I did my book launch a couple weeks ago, by the time this comes out, I don’t know how many weeks it’ll be, but I did it about a month ago. I did a book launch for The Book and my college prof my favorite pro, I invited her to say a few words ’cause she inspired me not to write The Book, but she inspired me in the work that I do And I just adore her. So she came and she’s like a, she’s like a really cool hip, like just one of my favorite profs in the whole world. And she came on the Zoom and talked about how great it was. And I like teared up and to know that my like 60 something was reading a book about me very explicitly talking about like, yeah, sex made me so happy. (35m 35s): ’cause I was like, see everybody, it’s fine. We’re all, it’s good. Everybody can understand this. Yeah. I, I think that that’s a reminder that like there are like allies in unexpected places and that like, sometimes the people like, just like not make assumptions because like sometimes it’s the people that we think like should be on board or not. Like I know I’ve also gotten critiques of my work, like when I talk about sex positivity or a polyamorous spirituality and like sometimes like from queer people or queer young people. And then there’ll be like a straight cis like 65-year-old rabbi is like, this is inspired, you have to keep doing this work. Right. Or like a priest like gets it and I’m like, yeah. Like there’s like, there’s some ageism and thinking like, oh, only young people. (36m 19s): Like the young people are sex positive and the old people aren’t sex positive that like, oh yeah. There’s a ton of ableism that way. It’s, It’s all old people can be awesome and young people can be terrible. Yeah. It that’s really true. And and the same with disabled folks. Like we think that all disabled folks are these ubic angelic beautiful souls that are so innocent, blah, blah, blah, blah. But dude, there are some really shitty disabled people out there. Yeah. Like sometimes like you’re just a shitty person. It’s not because you’re disabled, because you’re queer, because you’re, you’re a woman. It’s just like some people are shitty. You’re a shitty person and like I’ll conduit sometimes I can also be a shitty person. Sure, sure, sure. We all can do that. And so I think this idea that one of my favorite critiques that I’ve gotten so far is the latest one that I got on my neck alley again. (37m 7s): ’cause I I shouldn’t read my critiques. Thank you. So the latest one that I got was they said, no, no, no, I don’t like that he exploits care workers. I don’t like that he pays for sex. And then they said sometimes the writing felt immature. And I kind of laughed at that because I was like, why does everything, why does everything we write about disability have to be steeped in seriousness and like intensity? Why can’t somebody with a disability write a little immature thing? Why, why? Yeah. And it’d be lighthearted. Yeah. Yeah. I wouldn’t say it’s immature. It does not strike me as an immature book. Like there are many parts that are lighthearted, but it’s like so much mature content you’re talking about just in a lighthearted, very approachable, accessible way. (37m 54s): Really smart choice. Yeah. I wanted to write back to her and be like, well actually I, back to what you said I wanted write back and be like, well actually it’s just that, you know, accessible. But then I was like, okay, you’re gonna have your opinion no matter what. There’s something I can do. And that’s hard for me because like, I want all my stuff to be loved by everyone. And I’m quickly realizing that’s not true. Yeah. There’s this, there’s this quote from Jesus in one of the, the gospels where he’s like sending out his followers to go like, preach the gospel. And he’s like, if you get to a city or a town or a house and they like won’t listen to you, just leave and like dust the dust, the shake the dust offal to, to try and like convince them of your goodness or the rightness of this message. (38m 39s): And I think that’s like a message for, but, but Shannon And I here are constantly harping on and it’s like, I think for you also it’s like it’s, it’s just kinda like not land with some people and those aren’t the people that you’re gonna be talking to. But I know that your work really lands and transformative for so many people. Well that feels so nice to hear. ’cause you know, you know, and I’m sure you understand this, we work in a vacuum. Yeah. We do a lot of the, we do a lot of the stuff. We do solo, we do a lot of it by ourselves. We do a lot of it for nobody but ourselves. And so when somebody says like, oh, it something you did meant something to me, it’s like, oh wow. That’s so nice. Thank you. Okay, great. Wow. Wow. Yeah. And like, you know, you asked earlier how I got, how I got talking about sex. (39m 23s): I wanna change the question a little bit. Like Yeah. Because of comments like that, there have been so many moments where I’ve been like, oh, I should just give it up and get a real job, or I should just give it up and not do this anymore. And then I get comments like that and I’m like, okay, there’s another reason why I gotta keep going. I just have to remember this and it’ll be fine. Yeah. One of the things I talk about in my book I see like a real synergy here is like hospitality being like a core sacred obligation across traditions and the ways in which like queer people and non-monogamous, like slutty sex is a practice of hospitality, of welcoming a stranger into your house, into your bedroom, into your body. (40m 4s): And there’s a lot of like trust and care there. And I think what happens on like an individual, like on any given like individual hookup or experience, but also I’m like thinking about it with like deliciously disabled, like what an incredible model of hospitality and inclusion and belonging. And it’s like a vision of like the kingdom of God. Like the way that the world could be where sort of it’s sort of like come and like bring your whole self and your bodies and have like your needs met and your desires seen and maybe you’ll have sex or maybe you won’t. Or maybe let’s complicate what it even means to have sex and be in a sexual space. And it doesn’t necessarily have to be fucking in a particular way, but it can all, it can be, it can be blurry and sensual and sexy and that there’s like some power in in coming together and that like that like I, I dunno, And I what you just said, there’s, there’s a ton of power in coming together. (40m 59s): Yeah. Yes. Oh my god. Yeah. There’s a ton of power in coming together and you know, we, we are so I am still 10 years later so fucking proud of that party. I’m so proud of what, what we did, even though I didn’t get to have sex the night at all And I was so fucking tired and so busy and so exhausted from the whole thing. But it set the world of blaze because it remind like fucking Howard Stern wanted to come and film it and the BBC wanted to come and film it and like yeah, they wanted to make a mockery of it. But it started a conversation that disabled people before me have been talking about and after me, long after me. We’ll talk about, Yeah. (41m 40s): Of like Disabled people. Fuck. And we want intimacy and it shouldn’t be, why are we only allowed to talk about accessibility when it’s about ramps and elevators and buttons? Why can’t I talk about access to like the hot guy that I wanna fuck or the bedroom or the shower room or the dark room that I wanna be. Yeah. Why is access not relegated to those places too? Putting together a sex toy that works for you. Like all those things. Yeah, yeah. Like I created a sex toy. RIP to that too. It’s no longer a thing, But we, you know, tried to get that going and like I’ve done so much to, to continue the conversation that will happen long after I’m gone. (42m 21s): And I hope that in the brief blips that I’ve had here, it’s made an impact. Yeah. Well I think so. So your book is called Notes From a Queer Cripple. Folks can get it anywhere. Books are sold, right? Anywhere. Anywhere. Books are sold if you wanna go And a book Yeah. Go Ahead to Amazon or you know, Barnes and Noble. Yeah. Basically anywhere books are sold. The digital and physical copy right now I have no idea if they’re gonna do an audiobook. I’ve been asked multiple times I the answer, I dunno, how does even work? Yeah. Audible, if you’re listening, I’m right here. I’ll do one. Just call me. Yeah. And so like what’s like one thing that you hope readers take away from your book? (43m 2s): I hope they take away that sexuality and disability is way more nuanced than I think they realized. It isn’t just about getting that guy in the wheelchair off. It isn’t just about getting that guy in the wheelchair laid. It’s about how you see your body. It’s about how you see your sensuality and it, I hope people that are disabled take away that they see a part of themselves in there. And I hope that people who are not disabled take away that they have a lot of work to do. Awesome. Thank you so much. And where can folks, if they wanna keep in touch, whether you or follow along or support your work, how can folks do that? Yeah, I’m most active on Instagram. They can go to Andrew Gza on Instagram. They can go to Andrew Gza on Blue Sky. (43m 43s): I did have an ex account, but I killed it because don’t wanna support the fascist regimes that we’re dealing with right now. So just Instagram and Blue Sky. They can go to andrew gza.com to book me for talks, book signings, readings and all those great things as well. Awesome. Thank you guys for Being here One more time. Sorry. They can listen to my podcast, disability After Dark, wherever you get podcasts every other Sunday. I love it. I’m a subscriber to that. So thank you again so much for being here, Andrew. Thank you for having me. It was such a pleasure. The Queer Theology podcast is just one of many things that we do at Queer Theology dot com, which provides resources, community, and inspiration for L-G-B-T-Q Christians and straight cisgender supporters. (44m 25s): To dive into more of the action, visit us at Queer Theology dot com. You can also connect with us online on Facebook, Twitter, Tumblr, and Instagram. We’ll see you next week. The post The Journey of a Queer Disabled Advocate with Andrew Gurza appeared first on Queer Theology.