Faith and Identity: Miryam Kabakov on Building Inclusive Orthodox Communities

We welcome Miryam Kabakov to the podcast this week. Miryam is a national leader who has worked for more than three decades on the inclusion of LGTBQ+ individuals in the Orthodox world. She is Executive Director and ​co-founder of Eshel, @eshelonline, a national organization that supports LGBTQ+ Orthodox individuals and their families. Prior to being a leader at Eshel, Miryam was the New York and National Program Director of AVODAH: The Jewish Service Corps, Director of LGBT programming at the JCC Manhattan, Social Worker at West Side Federation for Senior and Supportive Housing, and was the first social worker at Footsteps.  She founded the New York Orthodykes, a support group for lesbian, bisexual and transgender Orthodox women, and is the editor of “Keep Your Wives Away From Them: Orthodox Women, Unorthodox Desires,” a collection of writings about the challenges and joys of LBT Orthodox Jews and winner of the Golden Crown Literary Award. In this conversation, Miryam shares her journey of growing up in a modern Orthodox community while grappling with her LGBTQ identity with Brian. She discusses the challenges of acceptance within her family and the broader Orthodox community, and how these experiences led her to found Eshel, an organization dedicated to supporting LGBTQ Jews. Miryam emphasizes the importance of community, rituals, and the ongoing work to create inclusive spaces within Orthodox Judaism. She also reflects on the evolving landscape of LGBTQ acceptance in religious contexts and the power of obligation and connection in fostering supportive environments.

 

Takeaways

• Miryam’s upbringing in a modern Orthodox community shaped her understanding of faith and queerness.
• The importance of community in navigating LGBTQ identity within Orthodox spaces.
• A-Shell was founded to create supportive environments for LGBTQ Jews and their families.
• Coming out is a continuous journey, especially in Orthodox contexts.
• Family acceptance can take time, but patience is key.
• Creating inclusive rituals is essential for LGBTQ individuals in Orthodox life.
• The future of queer Judaism holds hope for greater acceptance and understanding.
• Obligation to care for one another is a core value in Jewish tradition.
• Retreats provide a safe space for LGBTQ individuals to connect and share experiences.
• Communication and connection are vital for bridging gaps between communities.

 

Chapters

(04:38) Growing Up Orthodox and LGBTQ: A Personal Narrative

(08:58) The Formation of A-Shell: Building Community

(13:31) Navigating Dual Identities: Coming Out Experiences

(18:05) Creating Inclusive Spaces: The Work of A-Shell

(22:31) Ritual Innovations in the Orthodox Community

(24:11) Navigating Orthodox Jewish Law and Queer Identity

(27:36) The Intersection of Gender and Ritual

(29:26) Faith and Acceptance in Queer Identity

(32:27) Challenges of Inclusivity in Orthodox Communities

(34:24) Retreats: A Safe Space for LGBTQ+ Jews

(37:12) The Attraction of Orthodoxy for Queer Individuals

(40:57) The Power of Obligation and Community Support

 

Resources:

• Learn more about Miryam and Eshel here: www.eshelonline.org 
• Follow Eshel on IG @eshelonline
• Join our online community at  Sanctuary Collective Community 

 

If you want to support the Patreon and help keep the podcast up and running, you can learn more and pledge your support at patreon.com/queertheology

 

This transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors or omissions.

(10s):
Welcome to the Queer Theology Podcast. I’m Brian G Murphy. And I’m father Shannon, T l Kearns. We’re the co-founders of Queer Theology dot com and your hosts from Genesis, revelation. The Bible declares good news to LGBTQ plus people, and we want to show you how Tuning each week on Sunday for conversations about Christianity, queerness and transness, and how they can enrich one another. We’re glad you’re here Today on the podcast, we have a really special interview. Miriam Kabakov is a national leader who has worked for more than three decades on the inclusion of LGBTQ plus individuals in the Orthodox world. Miriam is executive director and co-founder of Elle, a national organization that supports LGBTQ plus Orthodox individuals and their families.

(53s):
Prior to being a leader at Eshel, Miriam was the New York and National Program Director of Voda, The Jewish Service Corps, director of LGBT programming at the JCC Manhattan Social Worker at West Side Federation for Senior and Supportive Housing, and was the first social worker at Footsteps. Miriam received her MSW from the World’s Wilder School of Social Work. She also received a certificate in fundraising from the University of St. Thomas, and a certificate in program evaluation from the University of Washington, and has a background in informal Jewish education from Brandeis University. She founded the New York Orthodox, a support group for lesbian, bisexual, and transgender Orthodox women, and is the editor of Keep Your Wives Away From Them, Orthodox Women Unorthodox Desires published by North Atlantic Books in May of 2010.

(1m 37s):
A collection of writings are the challenges and joys of LBT Orthodox Jews and winner of the Golden Crown Literary Award. On a more personal note, I’m so excited to share this interview with you because I’ve seen up close and personal lives that have been transformed by a Shell. I just can’t help but keep coming back to the idea that we are stronger together and Miriam is working to make that a reality. Miriam, thanks so much for being here on the podcast with us. I’m, it’s really excited to talk to you. I got an impressive list of accomplishments and things that you’ve done both for the Jewish world and the LGBT community, And I, I know our audience is gonna be in for a treat with you today.

(2m 17s):
Thank you so much, Ryan. It’s really an honor to be here. I wanna, before we dive into sort of present day Miran and the work that you’re doing with Michelle, can you just take us back to a more like child, a younger version of yourself, and that’s sort of like, what was it like for you growing up? How does religion and queerness intersect for you and when did you start to become aware that maybe there was a rift or maybe people told you there should be a rift there? What, like, what was that, what was that upbringing like for you? Sure. I can go there. I go there a lot because calls that we get on our warm line always often make me think of myself as, you know, know a younger person, a younger version of health.

(3m 2s):
And it’s always remarkable to me that these many decades later people are still saying the things that I said when I was younger. And that is, I am the only one. I must be the only one. This is crazy. How could God have made me this way? You know, what I know about our tradition and our religion and what’s supposed to be the right way to live doesn’t really jive with how I’m feeling inside. Now, I grew up in a modern Orthodox community going to modern Orthodox Day school, and that means that meant to me that the modern world and orthodoxy had a way of coexisting, and that everything we learned, sort of both, both of those things had to make sense of each other in order to have that like understanding and combination of the modern world and the ancient world and our faith and science.

(3m 59s):
And so the way I grew up was that this is gonna be okay, but I didn’t know how. And what I mean is that what we would learn in school was like, how do you apply ancient texts and ancient laws and customs to modern day problems? So my father was an A doctor in New York City, and he used to take me as a young person to these medical ethics meetings with, you know, the Fed Jewish Federation in New York. And you know, and they would ask all of these really interesting questions, you know, about like death and dying and, you know, how do we deal with that when we know that we’re not really allowed to like assist somebody who’s dying to die?

(4m 44s):
Like, that’s not our place. This is just one example and what is our role in that moment when, you know, as a, as a modern day person, you know, that the person is suffering. So like they would grapple a lot with these really difficult questions. So I knew that there was gonna be a way, some way somehow for me to work this out. So I grew up just really being deeply steeped in my faith. I was very religious And I was more religious than my parents. As I grew and stuff, my orthodoxy even stronger and stronger And I really, really loved it. Like it was everything to me. It gave me my sense of myself, it gave me a sense of purpose in life. And, and then I was realizing that, that I’m attracted to the, the girls in the class, not so much to the boys and what’s gonna happen to me.

(5m 30s):
And I gave myself a certain number of years to grow out of it and to pray really hard and hopefully I, I would get over it. And that didn’t really happen. So I did other things. Like I saw some therapists and some rabbis who kind of gave me like some magic potion or like some prayers to say or things to do in my life to bring out the side of me that would be interested in being with a man. And none of those things worked for the long run. And then I sort of happened into a group of women who were also Orthodox and L-G-B-T-Q.

(6m 11s):
And it was then that I realized like, really truly I am not alone. And that if some people are making this work, I can make it work too. And I have to make it work because God loves me, God created me this way, obviously I’m not changing. So like, what am I supposed to do? Be a miserable human being. And in Judaism you’re not allowed to be a miserable human being that’s like an an Antifa thing. Like you just, you know, worship God enjoy. It’s like we have a commandment to be happy. And so that was what I believed And I believed that it was gonna work itself out somehow.

(6m 52s):
And the only real way that it did work itself out for me was in community. Like finding other people who are like me and you know, learning to celebrate together with this new community. And so going into the work that I do at ahl, I brought all of that with me and that the first thing that we actually did was have a retreat. So we didn’t actually know how many people would come and we basically, the first year we did it was we sold out the retreat center. We had about 115 or 20 people and we were like, this is the best thing ever and this is going to have to continue. And so we just, we’ve hit the 15th year, we’re we’re keeping on, keeping on, and after three years we added another retreat for parents of LGBT LGBTQ people, Orthodox parents.

(7m 43s):
And for them as well, it is a parallel process between their children and themselves. Just like their kid couldn’t tell them the parents or anyone else in the Orthodox community, the parents feel that they can’t tell anybody in their community. So when they come to this retreat, it’s like the very first time that they can actually speak their truth about their child. And they don’t have to fear when somebody says, how is, how is your kid doing? You know, are they married yet? Like no one is gonna ask that question. So it’s a very special environment. And yeah, so that’s a long way of saying like, where I came from and how I got here and why we do what we do at a Shell or how, you know, one of the things that we do, which is community building.

(8m 28s):
I love that. I love that. I recognize myself in that sort of like, I don’t know how it’s gonna work out, but it’s gonna work out. And I think, I don’t know where we got the hutzpah from, but like not everyone has that reaction I’m finding. And so I I’m glad that, I’m glad that you had that, that it’s true sense. Yeah, it’s true. Not everybody has that. And So I, I imagine that part of what led you to form a Shell was this sort of experience of community, but there’s a big leap from just sort of like seeing the power of community and wanting to be part of it to founding a whole organization. Like what was it that led you to make something formal around LGBT LGBTQ Jews or like Orthodox Jews? Good question. It was a long journey, I guess, into, you know, the moment when a group of us were able to like formulate this nonprofit and, but it was preceded by like over a decade of forming communities, mostly in New York City at the time.

(9m 26s):
I, my story started in Jerusalem with a group called The Orthodox of Jerusalem, and I love that. Yeah. And, and then I brought that group to New York, like I came to New York And I started doing that, doing, having that group there. And we met at the center on 13th Street, the LGBT LGBTQ center. And I didn’t, again, I didn’t think anyone would show up. And every single month new women came, people came back and it became a very big robust group. And alongside that, there were other groups forming one that became predominantly inhabited by men. And yeah, there were just like, you know, these informal underground groups.

(10m 10s):
And by underground, I mean we were not funded by the Jewish community by any means. We were not funded by the LGBT LGBTQ community and we were all volunteer led, you know, and just kind of, we were doing our own thing and feeling like this is like beginning to feel like a movement, like this is like beginning to feel substantial. And you know, at the same time, other organizations had started, obviously in New York and way before that also of, you know, for LGBT LGBTQ Jews or just LGBT LGBTQ people. But we didn’t really think that anyone would take us seriously because, you know, like why be Orthodox? That was always the question, well, why are you, why don’t you just leave?

(10m 52s):
What are you like, why, what are you beating your heads against the wall? And anybody who asked us that, like it was clear to me they had not been in the orthodox community, like fully immersed. ’cause you know, people don’t really get the, the what’s so compelling and what’s so compelling is that it’s like, it’s a kind of a thing that holds you in life. So you’re not floating alone in the ether. There’s a very strong sense of community and responsibility to each other. There’s a very deep sense of purpose and meaning, and it’s very, very hard to give that up. And so people would say like, yeah, why, why are you orthodox? So, so that’s why we didn’t really think people were gonna take us that seriously.

(11m 33s):
And then the Orthodox folks would be like, you can’t be LGBT LGBTQ. That’s just not a thing. They didn’t even use that word. We can’t be homosexual. That’s like not a thing. You know, if you are, it’s because you’re following your yate sharra, which means your evil inclination and you better get over it. You have to like conquer your ever evil inclination. You’re not working hard enough. So like there was no sympathy from anybody, You know, like We had it both, both sides. Like, you can’t be this and you can’t be that. So, and that was sort of when this, this feeling of movement, a movement was forming, you know? And that was when in 2010, a bunch of us got together and helped launch this project, and which later became a Shell Inc.

(12m 18s):
Which is our organization. And, and it, it like, its time had come and, you know, how did we get funding that was like the whole thing and that just like, it’s really the same, it was the same story, like nobody was gonna fund us. And then along came a, a minister, a woman who had started a, a project called Welcoming Congregations and she also has a family foundation and she heard about us and she reached out or somebody reached her and there was a match made. And that was our first substantial grant that could really like, help us launch our projects and, and start a shells.

(13m 1s):
So gratitude to the Christian community or for, to her and for the work that she did. And we modeled some of our projects after the work that she was doing also. So that’s how we got started. Very cool. You, well you took one of my follow up questions out of my mouth about sort of when coming out, like why, why state orthodox. But I’m curious also, just like on a more personal note, like what was your experience like coming out as an LGBT person in the orthodox world? And I don’t know if I love using this language, but as an or as an orthodox person in the LGBT community, those sort of like dual coming outs. Yeah. You know, coming out as LGBT LGBTQ in the orthodox world was a, a long haul and it’s was never like ever done.

(13m 45s):
It still doesn’t ever feel like it’s done because you always have to remind people or tell people, you know, I’m married to a woman, so like I have to like share that information in orthodox spaces, you know, and that’s not a given. Like it’s, you know, there’s an assumption of heterosexuality obviously. So, but it, but it was, for me it was the hardest part was with my family, obviously, you know, feeling accepted by my parents and then by my siblings who are, are very, very orthodox in different ways. And so it was painful.

(14m 25s):
It was like a very, it was a very big challenge and it was a struggle and it, it took years and it took years to, to heal from the pain of the rejection. And, you know, half my family not coming to my wedding was a huge slap in the face to me as somebody who was always there for them and their kids and their weddings and their happy times. And so thank God I’m in a wonderful place with my family now And I feel very blessed about that. I really, really do. But it was a very long journey. And so now when I hear parents talking about their kids or I hear LGBT LGBTQ people talking about, you know, their families are like, you know, their family members not showing up for them in the ways that they’ve shown up for their family members.

(15m 15s):
I always wanna say like, please just gimme their number. I wanna like share my, I wanna like make sure that you don’t have years of pain like I did and years of needing to heal. Like there’s an easy way out and that is like, let’s step up, you know, the, the love and the acceptance and the empathy, but that’s my fantasy. It doesn’t really work like that. Everybody has to go through their own understanding and their own journey with this. And so that’s just to say that, you know, the family piece is the hardest piece And I think that’s why we really focus on the family, the families that we work with. ’cause if the parents are okay, the kids are gonna be okay ultimately.

(15m 55s):
And so we also focus on obviously LGBT, LGBTQ people finding each other. We have a very big network of that for friendship, for companionship, for love, for whatever it is community and yeah. So, and then coming out in the LGBT LGBTQ world as an orthodox person, yeah, people would just look at me funny And maybe less so now, but yeah, it’s, yeah, I don’t know. I don’t know. I mean, I can’t say I experienced the antisemitism that people are experiencing now.

(16m 35s):
It’s incredibly painful. What I’m seeing people go through right now. And you know, we did actually recently did a study of if LGBT LGBTQ Jews are feeling comfortable in queer only spaces like non-Jewish queer spaces and a large percentage of them are leaving those spaces. ’cause there’s just such intense antisemitism coming from, you know, the sentiment about against Israel and they have no place to go. ’cause they can’t go into their Orthodox communities, you know, for solace. They come to us, you know, so we’re, our community’s gotten stronger.

(17m 17s):
But anyway, I’m hoping that won’t last forever. Yeah. You know, you talk about the importance of that sort of family acceptance and also in your own life, it took your, it took some of your family a while to get there. And I’m wondering like what advice do you have for someone who’s, whatever their religious background might be, but then their parents are having, are not accepting at this moment. Like how do you balance, like not feeling like you’re banging your head against a wall and how do you like find the sort of joy in the moment while also also being able to sort of go on the, the journey with, with the parents and not have to feel like you have to cut them out entirely. Like how they, how do you, how do you, like, how do you like thread that needle?

(17m 59s):
Okay, so like for the parents, they love being together. It’s really beautiful. Like the parents have formed their own family almost. And, and they help each other a lot. There’s a lot of peer support out of this community. They came up with a saying that I use all the time that life is long and life is short or life is short and life is long. Really, like we all know what life is. Short means, like things feel like they’re going really quickly and all of a sudden you turn around and you’re 10 years older and like that. But, but life is long in that if you give people time and if you let them take their time, things will change.

(18m 40s):
So that, I repeat that like a mantra to every single parent I talk to when they’re, when they’re in distress, I’m like, you know, life is long. You’re gonna see the, the story isn’t over about your child. I do say the same thing to the LGBT LGBTQ people, but it’s harder, I think it’s harder for them to hear. ’cause you know, they’ve been living with this way longer than their parents have known about them. So they’re more impatient. Like they finally come out and they’re like, okay, I’m out. I’ve accepted myself. Yay. Where’s my party? And the parents are like completely devastated. So I say to them like, you’ve known for 15 years but your parents are just finding out now and you know what it’s like in the Orthodox community, so you need to be patient.

(19m 28s):
Yeah. So patience all around. Yeah. Can you say more about your work and like how much of it is focused on trying to get orthodox schuls or orthodox organizations to be, to change versus sort of supporting LGBT folks in figuring out what it means to live an Orthodox life or a Jewish life outside of, or alongside of those institutions or amongst their own sort of like found family created communities? Yes. All of it. All of it at once. Yeah. When we started we didn’t know like where to prioritize, where to begin.

(20m 12s):
And we started at coming at it in both ends, like giving community and in support to LGBT LGBTQ people and starting to chip away at the orthodox community’s understanding of what this is. And so we’ve never abandoned either end of that. Like our mission is to create an LGBT LGBTQ inclusive orthodoxy where people feel like they just belong, like they belonged yesterday before they came out. You know, that is like a seamless transition between before the day before when you were not out and the day you came out. And so that is a really, that’s a lot of work.

(20m 52s):
So we have this program called the Welcoming Shools project and it’s like a series of interviews with people with rabbis who lead congregations and just kind of talking with them. It’s a very non-judgmental conversation just to hear how they will have an LGBT LGBTQ person belong in their synagogue. And there’s a wide range of questions like rituals like that you’ll let them do or events like, you know, milestones you’ll let them celebrate and just generally feeling inclusive of them. And we’ve interviewed 300 of these synagogues so far.

(21m 34s):
We’re still doing, we do about 25 a year and it’s a beginning of a conversation and we also are able to assess like, is this a place we would send somebody? And everybody has a different, you know, ability to tolerate other people’s intolerance. Yeah. Some people will be fine going to one synagogue and some people will be fine, not be fine. So we have to sort of like make a match. So we work a lot on, on making orthodoxy in, you know, a friendly place. That’s really what we do. That’s our goal. But we can’t do that. We can’t just expect people LGBT, LGBTQ people to sit around and wait for that.

(22m 18s):
Right? Right. So we create, like, the way I see our Retreats is like, or our gatherings is like a, it’s like a, a utopian space. It’s like, this is how we want it to be and we give people a sense of how it will be and how it can be, and it, it, it also takes patience. But now in a few places we’re seeing that some of our members have gone and created LGBT LGBTQ like groups inside orthodox synagogues. Mm, wow. Right. Yeah. That was 10 years ago. No. And so that’s really wonderful and that kind of is a beautiful combination of the two things that we’ve been working on.

(23m 4s):
You know, strengthening people from within so that they have the belief that they don’t have to leave the community and the ability to advocate for themselves and then the orthodox community. Like recognizing you’re the same person that I knew yesterday and there’s no reason why you should have to go anywhere else. Yeah. Wow. What other sort of major important changes have happened that you’ve seen since you founded Elle? So I guess what we’ve seen is like, first of all, the statistics around people coming out in general in America show that people are coming out younger and younger, and this is true in the Orthodox community as well.

(23m 52s):
And that, and because like 10 or 15 years ago or 20 years ago, people were coming out like the average age was like 21. So like a kid would go to college or they would leave home and then they would come out. So the community didn’t really need to figure out what to do about it. But now teenagers are coming out in Orthodox Day schools. So some orthodox communities are really getting a real, like their own taste of what this means to really have that person still belong. And some of them are making choices to like, for, I’m not judging it honestly, sometimes it’s just a practical thing. They can’t make it work or you know, they’ll have a mass exodus, the parents will pull their kids out of the school and then the school will, you know, be damaged in a not good way.

(24m 39s):
And so like, you know, no judgment, but, but there are places that are able to hold the student and keep them. And so that’s different that there are queer orthodox kids staying inside of day schools. And that’s a good thing. We have built this incredible parent network and so there’s that for people, you know, that parents are not alone so they can figure out how to help their child. Yeah. And that we’ve given a space for queer Orthodox Jews to feel whole, like there is now this place. And so these things are all new things, I think.

(25m 21s):
And, and because of that, I think that a lot of the Orthodox communities are recognizing that this isn’t a choice, it is the nature of the human condition. As one of my favorite professors in my master’s program at Yeshiva University used to say Norman Linzer, he used to say, this is the nature of the human condition. And that’s a phrase that I say all the time like this buddy, like, this is not changing, this is the way God made us. So you have to figure out how to deal with us in a loving and accepting way.

(26m 2s):
Yeah. And I guess what what also is beginning to change is the ritual side. Like orthodox queer people want what straight Orthodox people want because that’s how they were raised. So they were like raised to expect certain things for themselves. You know, it’s, it’s very heteronormative, but like, I’ll say it anyway, like, you know, being married, getting married, having children, not for everybody obviously, but this is like the cultural norms of this community. So they expect that. And if they can’t have it, they’re like gonna make it, they’re gonna create it. So there’s a ton of new rituals coming out and they’re starting to be more clergy in the orthodox sphere that will help facilitate these rituals, which is really new.

(26m 52s):
And these are all great things. Yeah. Can you, can you say more about these, like the ritual aspect of it and, and also like, as a relatedly, I suppose that the Orthodox world obviously is, has a long way to go when it comes to LGBT stuff, but also there’s also different roles and rituals for men versus women in the orthodox world and a lot of, many of the rituals are, are, are gendered as well. And so like, like what is that, like, what are some new innovative ways folks are expanding orthodox ritual? Yeah, great question. It’s, it’s really new. So like the ways that I’ve seen the rituals so far are around marriage and you know, the language of those rituals is male and female.

(27m 42s):
And so people will create rituals that don’t feel like they are violating Orthodox Jewish law because orthodox queer Jews don’t want to violate Orthodox Jewish law. So they’ll do some alternatives like, but that feel like the same kind of a wedding, for example. So like when I came out And I invited my Orthodox relatives to my wedding, they were most appalled that it was gonna be a Jewish wedding. And I was like, what did you think I was gonna do like a Buddhist wedding?

(28m 23s):
Like what, what were you thinking would be good for me or comfortable for me? So, you know, my partner And I, it was, it felt like a very traditional wedding, But we took out some things that we knew that were not gonna jive with my understanding of orthodox law, but it felt orthodox. It felt like it, it like, it was a very traditional wedding. So that’s just to say that there’s a lot of like keeping true to what feel like what is the tradition without, with also keeping true to Jewish law. Okay. So that’s one thing in terms of other rituals, like there’s a ritual for a woman to af if she’s married and she is stopped menstruating, that she goes to a mikva, like a ritual bath.

(29m 14s):
And so, you know, we get this question a lot or you know, I’ve heard it many times like, what do two women do in that case? And do those same laws apply because, you know, men and a woman don’t, like they sleep in separate beds during her time of menstruation. So like, what do two women do? And so there are people that teach this, like how do you manage that? But not everybody thinks like, not every orthodox queer person thinks that that’s relevant because it’s only relevant to a man and a woman. So like, I guess what I’m Mm, Kind of boiling it down here to, like, some people will take the paradigm and plunk it right onto their lives and some people will say, no, you know what, I’m actually under the radar of this Jewish law because I’m not with the member sex.

(29m 60s):
Right. Yeah. And then I feel like maybe Brian, you were alluding to like bi the binary, were you, I mean, not necessarily though week, we can certainly go there. I was sort of like just thinking about the ways in which like gender, like, like rabbis and like who, like who lays to fill in and sort of obligations around like other sorts of like ritualistic obligations Yeah. That are like, that are, that are not necessarily queer issues, but that are like, have a gendered component as well that maybe like some trans folks are like, like how do I, how do I, how do I navigate haha around what are my obligations as a man or a woman or as a person with like this body part or that body part?

(30m 50s):
And are they just sort of like putting themselves into existing rituals? Are they creating like new rituals or Yeah, I I’m feeling like mostly in the orthodox sphere that we’re not necessarily creating new rituals. We’re trying to figure yeah. How to take on the rituals that we’re supposed to take on, but as you know, the person I am today, like how does this map onto this new reality of who I know I am and who I wanna be seen as. Yeah. So yeah, I think there’s more of that than creating our own rituals that are like radically different. Yeah. Yeah. And so can you say more about just like for yourself, like what does it mean to be like queer and religious?

(31m 34s):
Like what does that like look like for you on a, on a, on a sort of like a soul level, I suppose That I am, I’m accepting that I’m different than most people and that God is okay with that and it’s gotta love me anyway. Like I said earlier, you know, and I can’t radically change myself. Like I can’t perform, you know, heart or brain surgery on a metaphorical level. Like I just can’t and change the way that God made me. So, and, and my obligation is to rejoice and to like be a happy person as much as I can be and have faith, you know, even in the, in light of all of the horrible things that are going on in this world.

(32m 24s):
Like, yeah, I wake up every morning shaking my head like, really is this really going on? And so like, but to have faith is, is an important thing. And, and so yeah, just, you know, trying to figure out how to keep my faith and understand that I’m, I feel things differently than maybe my siblings or you know, people, some of the people around me. And that it’s also, it’s okay and it’s, it’s, this is the way God made me. So it’s like here I am, you know? That’s what it’s like for me. Yeah. I, I’m, I’m struck by the tension of wanting to sort of like stay within the bounds of Jewish law and also like wanting to have like the ritual that feels orthodox and wanting to change congregations, but also like, not change orthodoxy.

(33m 28s):
And maybe this is a, maybe we cut this question and it’s an off record, like, but like Holocaust, does it change slowly? Right? And so like, like in what, like when you imagine a, a queer Jewish future 500 years from now, like are the wedding ceremonies between two queer Jews still sort of like, oh, well we’re able to sort of like, fly under the radar and make this work in our own way? Or like, is there a world where queerness could be totally integrated into Haha Yeah, I mean, for sure this is, okay, this is what I learned as a younger person, right?

(34m 9s):
Like living my modern orthodox community that we’re not changing halakha, but halakha needs to address our lives as we see Like, that’s just halakha. It’s halakha means the way, so like, given you know who I am, what is the way I need to live, and just as ha you know, Halakha has addressed questions of, of the modern day, like in SI science or, you know, with disability or you know, just things that, you know, in the time of codifying Jewish law they didn’t know about. So like now what that we know, what is your answer today?

(34m 50s):
And so there are rabbis out there who are creating what’s called response literature. Like when you ask that question of do two women have to keep the laws of Nita, which is that the family purity laws around menstruation, which is what it’s called. And there are people addressing those questions. So like for us to be able to like live in halak way in the way of Jewish law. So, so I guess 500 years from now, it’s like, it’s like a non-issue and that we figured it out and just like, you know, hundreds and hundreds of years ago when the rabbis, you know, talked about nine different genders, like recognizing genders, like it wasn’t a thing, it wasn’t a big deal, it was just like, this is the way it is and for whatever reason, you know, there’s tremendous, you know, fear and Yeah.

(35m 52s):
Understanding and you know, otherness about it and it shouldn’t be that way and it wasn’t that way. Yeah. Yeah. In some ways it, it sometimes in some areas feels like there’s a little bit of like going, I don’t know, like going backwards or fear of the unknown. Like, you know, you know, you have stories about, you know, a long time ago people being like, oh, this person was named one thing and then they left and then they came back and like, now they’re a man. And so like, clearly they’re gonna be a man and like if they, they can figure that out in like, I dunno, when it was like 1920s or 1880s Poland like surely we can figure it out in 2025 America. Right, right, right. The, the mystery of God’s world. That’s how I think. Yeah. Think about it.

(36m 33s):
And so what, like what are do what are some of the challenges that you see for why orthodox rabbis aren’t more inclusive? So I don’t wanna speak for them, but I guess there’s tremendous fear, I think of the unknown. And there’s also concerns about not being accepted amongst their peers. And if we let the gay people come to our synagogue, like, what will be next? You know, what, how will this structure fall apart or how will it affect us in a negative way?

(37m 15s):
Like, what bad things will happen after that? You know, things that are also unknown to us. And so I think that’s a lot of it is, I hate to say peer pressure, you know? Yeah. And a fear of what they don’t know. And I under I understand that. I mean, I get it, you know, when you don’t know something, it’s scary. Yeah. And so a lot of what we do is try to put a human face on, you know, queer people and just be like, let’s get us together in a room and talk to each other, talk to other, you know, and communication is the key. Listening is the key to getting into someone’s heart and that’s, that’s what we need to do.

(38m 2s):
’cause that’s what’s keeping us out. Yeah. I mean I, I think that’s why the work of your organization is so important because it’s, it’s, it’s like bringing all these people together And I don’t, it just feels like, like eventually there’ll be like a watershed moment. Like there’s a, there’ll be peer peer pressure from the opposite direction. Right? Right. Like it’s, it’s scary to be the only one saying it, but when you’re sort of one among many voices, like the connecting that you do both of LGBT Jews to one another, but parents and rabbis and the work, like, it helps to sort of make it a little bit easier to be brave. And so I yeah, I’m so glad that you’re doing this work. I know that Retreats and gatherings are like a big part of your work.

(38m 42s):
Like can you gimme a, can you give us a sample of like, what does it look like to go on a retreat as, as like an for one, maybe like for both sides, like an LGBT focused retreat or a parent focused retreat. Like what’s a day in the life of a retreat? Yeah, it’s a good question. ’cause we think a lot about that when we create them. And what we want is for the queer person to walk into this retreat. And it’s always on Shabbat. So it’s always like a Friday night, Saturday, Sunday so that they can experience exactly what they had when they grew up with one difference. And that one difference is that they’re fully accepted and it feels very magical. Like I was saying before, like a little slice of utopia, you know, Ghana, Eden, the Garden of Eden, like it’s utopian to like have that change like that, you know, Shabbat looks and feels and sounds exactly like it did in the spaces that you were a part of that didn’t accept you, but you can be exactly who you are and be surrounded by people who have the same kind of experience.

(39m 52s):
So it doesn’t look much different than your maybe average orthodox retreat over a weekend. But we do have a lot of sessions and we have a lot of speakers and people sharing their stories a lot. We have a lot of storytelling, a lot of, you know, people just sharing their backgrounds and where they came from to give and where they are now. And so like people have an inspiration for like how they can live their lives and, you know, and with the parents, same, like, it looks just like an Orthodox retreat and that’s what it is. It’s on Shabbat. We, you know, keep strict laws of keeping kosher and keeping Shabbat and, and all the joyousness of those that day.

(40m 38s):
Like we have it all. And yet the parents know that they can completely let their guard down with each other. And we do a lot of learning together and a lot of psychoeducation and education, you know, things that they need to know to parent their kid. So, yeah. Yeah. Do you have any coming up? Oh yeah, we have. Thanks for asking Brian. We have two, two of our Retreats. The LGBT LGBTQ retreat will be on March 13th to 15th, and the parent retreat will be April 30th to May 3rd, God willing of 2026.

(41m 20s):
And they’re usually on the east coast. So this one will be in Maryland and people can find out about it on our website. And registration isn’t open yet, but it will be, you know, in, in a few weeks or months. Awesome. And we’ll put links to all of that in the show notes of this podcast episode. And this, this next question might also be one that that has to the god in room for, because the answer might be no, but, but earlier you talked about, you know, when people find out that you’re, when queer people sometimes find out that you’re orthodox, they’re like, well, why are you still orthodox? Or like, what’s the point of being orthodox? And certainly I know lots of non-Orthodox Jews that are like, I just like don’t get that whole world.

(42m 1s):
But I also know what seems like a growing number of Jews who were either grew up secular or reform and are sort of interested in moving like towards like conservative or more orthodox practice, but feel like, well I don’t want to, like I’m trans. I like don’t know if I, I’m like, I’m not gonna go to a habad house. Like, and so like I I’m wondering if any part of these are sort of like the work that you do attracts like orthodox curious, queer, queer Jews. It absolutely does. And it’s always, we always like scratch our heads a little bit. Like we get a lot of calls from people who wanna convert to orthodoxy.

(42m 44s):
Hmm. A lot of trans people also. And you know, I have certain theories around maybe like some trans people have said to me, ’cause like in an orthodox synagogue you have a, you have a divider, so men aren’t, or one side of women on the other. And as you know, growing up in that and you’re sitting in the women’s section, but you feel like you belong in the men’s section when you finally can go into the men’s section, it is like incredibly validating around, you know, your gender. So, but anyway, so for people who are wanting to convert or who are ortho curious also like, you know, it’s not like I don’t get it because it’s the same answer that I give.

(43m 26s):
Why are you still orthodox? Right? Yeah, I get it. It’s a very compelling life and, but it comes with so many restrictions and so many things you cannot do, but it also comes with great meaning and things you can do and you’re, you’re supposed to do. So yeah, people are drawn to it. non-Orthodox people are very drawn some times to orthodox spaces and there’s a warmth. There’s also, like I was saying before, a sense of meaning and ritual and an obligation. And so I think that in a world where, you know, like anything goes, sometimes people need to be told no, everything doesn’t go like, yeah, you can’t do this now, you can do this later.

(44m 7s):
Like, I think people like boundaries and that is what Jewish law gives you. It gives you a structure. And I know I craved that when I was growing up, so that’s what I got out of it. Yeah. So people want meaning, you know, people want warmth, people want community, and these are all the things that we get in this community. I love that you said obligation in that sort of mix of things. I think about that a lot as a community organizer and as a relationship coach. And like there certainly is something about boundaries and there’s something about like, we’re all responsible for our own feelings and all of that. Like, and also there, for me it feels like something about, there is also something about like choosing to be bound up together and choosing to be obligated to one another.

(44m 57s):
Or like maybe sometimes like being told that you’re obligated to one another. And so like, can you share more about like whether like in an orthodox framework or just like in your own sort of like personal Miriam framework of sort of like the power of obligation and how that could look like in a healthy context? Sure. So I have this reflex that not everybody in my family appreciates That Whenever I hear that somebody does not have a place to spend Shabbat or like they need a place to stay over, like I’m like, stay with us, you know, and I’m moving other People some, yeah, the same reflex. They don’t have the same reflex all, I mean, they’re very hospitable, but I’m just like, you have to stay with us.

(45m 40s):
Like, that is, and that’s actually, that’s the whole metaphor of the a Shell tree. So I guess it works for me that Abraham and Sarah planted this sheltering tree in the desert. So when they saw people wandering and needing a place to stop and, and be fed and being taken care of, and then they would do that and then send them on their way. So that’s the a Shell tree metaphor. And, and you know, so like I have this feeling of like, if somebody needs a place, you just give it to them. There’s like no question. So it’s not even a choice for me. You know, if somebody’s sick, it is not a choice. You actually must try to visit them or bring them some food.

(46m 23s):
If somebody needs money to live it, it is not a choice to give charity. It is an obligation for us to give at least 10% of our income to charity. And so like, there’s not a lot of questions like, tell me what to do and I’ll do it. You know? And so yeah, I think that’s, you know, we’re obligated to take care of each other and so yeah. So those are some of the ways it shows up in my life. Awesome. If folks are like interested in learning more about Elle getting involved in the programming, wanna tune into your, like make use of your warm line.

(47m 4s):
Like what are the ways that folks can connect with you? Sure. So great. So just, you can email us, I will tell you info@selonline.org, E-S-H-E-L-O-N-L-I-N-I-N e.org info at. And you’ll find somebody who, an actual person on the other line, on the other side of that who will respond to you. And if you, if you’re in, if you’re feeling like you’re in distress or you want support or you wanna find out more about our programs, you can call our warm line, which the number is 7 2 4 SL zero one or 7 2 4 3 7 4 3 5 0 1.

(47m 52s):
You can leave a voicemail or a text. Yeah. So there’s a lot of ways just go to our website and you’ll see all the ways to reach out to us. We have a whole calendar of events. We have about 15 to 20 support groups we run each month online, so they’re very accessible. And then we have a lot of regional events in different cities, and we have a full program in New York City, so that’s good if people are in that area. Also, we have Shabbat dinners and we do once a month on a Monday night, we have a in-person event in New York and we have chapters all over.

(48m 33s):
So there’s also ways for people outside of New York City to get involved and to be with people. Fantastic. Well thank you for this lovely conversation. And I, we like to close by asking guests, like, what’s one thing that’s bringing you joy lately? I love that. Oh boy. You know, I have to say, I’m discovering, and this isn’t, I grew up in the city, a New York City girl. Like this was never anything I would’ve said. Like, I like being in nature, just, it does bring me joy. And I, I learned that from being in nature and, and being in the moment, like there’s nothing, like just being fully present and just appreciating what is right now, this very moment.

(49m 15s):
And, And I also, my, my dog brings me great joy. He’s incredible. He is a love bug And I just love being with him. And so I think like, you know, I think animals and, you know, there’s like great, that’s also part of nature, you know, just like these beings that actually we have no clue what they’re thinking or what they’re, you know, they’re what they’re all about. It’s like a mystery. So like, I just love, you know, I love watching birds and animals and being with my animal and yeah. So those are two things I think. And what else? My children, when they’re willing to talk to me when they’re teenagers, but they, they bring me incredible joy.

(49m 59s):
So yeah. Thank you for that question. I love thinking about that. You’re welcome. Well, thank you again, Maria, for being here with us today. Absolutely. Brian, it was so great to meet you. Maybe I’ll see you at an initial retreat. Yeah. I’m like, I’m like, sign me up and you stop by at night in New York or something. I’m, I’m gonna be joining the email newsletter and staying in the loop on all things. Sounds really cool. Oh good. Alright. Thank you. Keep up the good work, The podcast. Thank you. The Queer Theology podcast Is just one of many things that we do at Queer Theology dot com, which provides resources, community, and inspiration for LGBT, LGBTQ Christians and straight cisgender supporters. To dive into more of the action, visit us at Queer Theology dot com. You can also connect with us online on Facebook, Twitter, Tumblr, and Instagram.

(50m 42s):
We’ll see you next week.

The post Faith and Identity: Miryam Kabakov on Building Inclusive Orthodox Communities appeared first on Queer Theology.