What We Learned From Reading The Bible Every Week for 600 Weeks

(9s):
Welcome to the Queer Theology Podcast. I’m Brian G Murphy. And I’m father Shannon, T l Kearns. We’re the co-founders of Queer Theology dot com and your hosts from Genesis, revelation. The Bible declares good news to LGBTQ plus people, and we want to show you how Tune in each week on Sunday for conversations about Christianity, queerness and transness, and how they can enrich one another. We’re glad you’re here. Hello? Hello. Hello. Before we dive into this episode, which spoiler alert is our 600th episode, which is just mind blowing to me. You can’t see Shea, but he’s shaking his head in disbelief. Just a quick reminder that we are running a three week poly possibilities cohort that starts next week.

(52s):
It starts on Tuesday, July 29th, three Tuesday evenings Eastern time, Wednesday mornings, Australia, Japan time, and various time zones. Depending on where in the world you are, it’s gonna be looking at the intersections of obviously polyamory and spirituality and really with an eye towards what a polyamorous perspective, how that can enrich all of our types of relationships as well as our spiritual and faith lives. And so this is great for you, certainly if you’re a polyamorous or non-monogamous person of faith, but also, even if you are not polyamorous or not open in an open relationship of some sort, but you just wanna learn from the wisdom of polyamory, we would love to have you, you can learn more and register at Queer Theology dot com slash poly possibilities.

(1m 35s):
There are sliding scales, and if you can’t or you don’t wanna join the calls live, there’s always the option to watch the replays. I would say like about half the folks do it that way. Anyways, so you’d be in good company, whether you join live or watch the replays. If you have any questions, shoot us an email, connect ology com or send us a DM on Instagram. And with that said, let’s dive into this episode. This Episode, 600 episodes. I can’t believe it. We’ve been doing this podcast pretty much every week for 12 years, 13 years. I don’t, I’m not quite sure what the Math is. Yeah, I think 12 years. Yeah. That is wild. It is wild. And so today we just wanted to reflect a little bit on, you know, over the 12 years, obviously we spent the first six or seven years of that queering a bible passage every, every, actually longer, longer than six or seven years, maybe the first nine years.

(2m 31s):
Yeah. Because I feel like we did the lectionary in total three times anyway, you know, queering a bible passage. And then we’ve talked about all sorts of other things impacting the lives of queer and trans people of faith. And I wanted to talk a little bit today about, you know, what has stayed the same over those 12 years? What has changed? Obviously both of us have been through a lot of life and a lot of, Oh my god, So many locations. We’ve moved quite a bit in those 12 years. You, you converted. We’ve done, we’ve done lots of things over the 12 Years.

(3m 12s):
Yeah, you were celibate, now You’re married, you started. Yeah. So lots, lots of lots of differences. So I’m, I’m curious for you, Brian, as you think about like the last 12 years and particularly this podcast, what are some of the first things that come up for you, maybe as, as just general reflections, things that that stand out. Yeah, I mean, I think that I still really love the Bible, which is, I don’t know, wild, like maybe like, I don’t know, not fashionable in progressive circles anymore, but I think there’s like something really cool there about sacred texts and wrestling with them and wrestling them with them together with you, Shannon, on this podcast with the listeners of this podcast in the emails that they send us or in the discussion threads inside of our Sanctuary Collective Community to sort of like, have these conversations together with people.

(4m 1s):
Or like when we do the type of work in person at speaking events at churches or synagogues or, or conferences, colleges, that there’s like something about not just like reading the Bible and isolation, but like reading it together with other people that feels like really juicy and interesting. And I am just like, never, like, I’ve never been more convinced, like my con my conviction only grows that queerness is already holy and that the world is in desperate need of like the queer gospel, the queer good news. And that like, that there’s like something about whether or not you s stay religious or a particular version of, of faith that like, there’s like something really powerful about saying like, how I do life as holy.

(4m 49s):
And then also like making sure that like, but like bringing sort of a greater attention and intentionality to how you do life together, just like really adds like a richness to life. Life. And I dunno, I was t in my twenties when we started this And I just turned 40. So it’s like weird that this is not spinning the decades and lots of love and loss along the years. And that like, there’s like, something about sa like having spiritual tools is not just like, I don’t know, forgetting into heaven. Like who the fuck cares. Like, I don’t mean lots of people really care a lot, obviously that’s like not a question that these days like captivates me anymore, but I think that like, it’s not just fairy tales and make believe that like, I, I’ve now like seen the real power of having both practices and communities to lean on when times are really good and when times are really bad.

(5m 42s):
And I want everyone to have that sort of well to draw upon. So there’s just some initial reflections. What about you, Shea? Yeah, yeah. You know, I, I think one of the things that comes up for me and, And I know that I’ve said this before is that there have been so many times when we, especially when we were queer in the lectionary every week, where I would, you know, read the text and be like, I, there is nothing new to say about this particular passage. Like, we’ve looked at it, I like, I’ve looked at it a million times over the course of my life and now I’ve looked at it a million times over the course of this podcast. And almost inevitably there we would figure out something new to say, right?

(6m 26s):
Or something that was still resonating or something that was resonating in a new way because of what was going on in the world. And I think that like, that is both the power of a practice that you return to over and over again, that it like continues to find new ways to be meaningful. I I think that’s also the power of returning to these stories over and over again, that you find new ways to, to engage with them because you have changed, The world has changed. But I think that’s also like the power of a sacred text, right? Is that it continues, it finds ways to continue to speak even in a very different world and society and culture.

(7m 14s):
And I think that that’s like something that’s really special and powerful, so that, that resonates for me. And I, And I’ve been noticing even in myself lately, e even though we’re, we’re doing less with, with querying the Bible on the podcast, like we still obviously engage in that in our work. And I’m still like finding ways to be sub surprised by these stories and yeah. To be changed by these stories. And I think that that’s like a, a really special and powerful thing. And, and, and I’m grateful for that. I, I also feel like, you know, I’ve, I’ve studied the bible my entire life and went to seminary, like have done all the things and also like I’m still deepening my understanding of these texts and that like, that’s both in a academic way, but it’s also in a, a personal spiritual practice way.

(8m 6s):
And that’s been, that’s been really special too. I I also feel like it’s been interesting to watch the queer and trans Christian space change slash not change slash regress over over the last 12 years. And I think that that’s a really, we’re in a really interesting time, right? I think that there, when we started this podcast, no one was really talking about deconstruction or the, that word had kind of like just entered the lexicon.

(8m 47s):
Yeah. And, and, but lots of people were kind of in that space of trying to figure out what Christianity could look like. And we like made a ton of progress as like a queer, trans Religious Group. Like there was just so much progress being made. And then I think it feels like then there was like another wave of massive deconstruction and that really impacted like the, the progress that we were making. And, And I’ve seen, I’ve seen a bit of, of regression in the organizing in queer and trans religious spaces in particular.

(9m 28s):
And that’s like both sad to see and frustrating. And also because I’ve seen it change before. I believe that it can change again. And so like that’s kind of this space I’m finding myself in of like, how might I be able to be involved in the change moving forward. Yeah. I, you know, when you were talking about being like going to seminary, it reminds me that when we started this podcast, you had your, had had completed seminary. I think you had like shortly before we started become a deacon, or maybe shortly after, like right around the time. And then of course like not too long after that we’re like ordained. And so like, when we started, it was very much like, you are the seminarian, you’re the Bible expert.

(10m 11s):
I am the like, lay person that has nothing that does not like, I like, that’s, I like studied religion in undergrad a little bit, but like I minored in it. I didn’t like even have a bachelor’s in it, right. And like that was like a bit of a dichotomy and that like two things have I’ve noticed been like really powerful for me. And that is that like bringing myself to scripture and to tradition has like opened my eyes to how I understand like my faith. And that like bringing those to myself has like enriched the way that I understand myself and my body and my desires and my sex life and my romantic relationships and my friendships and life and death and all of the things.

(10m 57s):
And also I think that part of what has like enabled me to do that is by like, learning from you and your sort of like seminary wisdom and also along the way, like reading a lot of books and watching a lot of movies and listening to other podcasts of people who like more learned it than me on like how to read the Bible and what the Bible means and how various communities have engaged with like the Bible in particular and sacred your texts in general. And that there’s a little bit of like, like tending to the soil and then you like sewing the soil and like, you kinda like reap, you reap a little way down the line. But I think like I am able to in the moment sometimes, like I, I had this tweet go like that people really liked about seeing like the Holy Spirit on the dance, a gay club.

(11m 49s):
And I feel like I was like able to spot that and articulate that because for the past like six years I had been reading the bible every week with you and like read a bunch of books about it and was like thinking about it and, and journaling about it. And so there, there also is sometimes like when I’m like reading a book or reading the Bible, I’m like, sometimes it feels like really inspiring and engaging and exciting and sometimes it’s just sort of like, oh, okay, like this is like neat I guess. But it’s like later when I’m like outliving my life that I’m like, oh, like this is what it was talking about. Or like, oh, I like see this new connection. And I think that like, what has like struck me is I, for the most part I have like, now that I’m like Jewish, actually I have like some religious Jewish friends, but like before my conversion, like basically none of my friends were religious.

(12m 40s):
And even still most of even my Jewish friends are not particularly religious. So I mostly around non Christians or like, hey, like the, so like Christmas and Easter Christians are like culturally Christian, but like not, people would not describe themselves as religious. And like whenever my work comes up and like either like the podcast or books at first I’m like, oh, I work at the intersections of like queerness and and spirituality. And they’ll be like, oh, that’s like probably really like needed. But it like, seems like it’s like not for them. And then if they ask a follow-up question And I get to sort of like give an example and I’ll sort of like draw upon like something that I know will be relevant to them, they’re like, oh, that’s like really meaningful. Or like, oh, I’ve like never thought about the ways in which like sex can be sacred or like, oh yeah, like you’re right.

(13m 21s):
Like there is something like really beautiful about queer friendship And I think that like, I don’t really care if you’re a Christian. What I, I mean I know some people do, but like, I don’t really care if you’re a Christian, but what I care about is that like you have some sort of like connection to the divine and the transcendent. And I actually do think that like Christianity, if you were like a raised Christian or Judaism and you were raised Jewish or whatever, like, or you wanna convert like, I think like there these like ancient pathways like do offer like some meaningful inroads and like where you go from there and how you follow that is sort of like up to you. But like, I don’t know, they’ve been around for a couple millennia because I think that there’s like some, some like wisdom and some like useful tools in there.

(14m 5s):
And so like that is why I continue to engage in this work. And who knows if we’ll be here for episode 1200, but like I think that there’s like some real there, there when it comes to this type of work, whether you want to sort of just heal from Christianity and your spiritual or baggage and move on, or whether you want to like become an active Christian again or whether you just wanna sort of like find God on on the dance floor like this, it, it just all feels like interconnected for me. Yeah. And I, I feel like those tools that you’re talking about, you know, I’m, I’m seeing a lot of folks in, in this current political moment that we’re in, especially in the United States, it really having this sense of, of like, well two things.

(14m 48s):
One, they’re seeing how Christianity is being used in order to do a lot of harm to people. But two, on the flip side, I I think that there’s a lot of people who are sitting in this space of like, I feel like I should do something, but I don’t know what that something is. And I, I feel like, you know, these practices that, that we’re both talking about, like really help in those moments to help you figure out both how to settle yourself enough that so that you can look at and figure out where you fit in and, and where you can be useful and helpful, but also like help us to know that these patterns of history, you know, ha have their patterns, we call them patterns for a reason they keep coming back.

(15m 43s):
And so like figuring out how, how our faith and our spiritual practices speak in this particular moment is I, I think is also something that I think a lot of people are hungry for, but maybe aren’t necessarily knowing how to tap into and, and connect with. And that feels like an important, important thing to be engaging with these days. Yeah. I’m reading a book about the prophets and like, oh my god, talk about palsa, all this has happened before all this will happen again. It’s like, oh, like you’re like mistreating women. Oh, you like, don’t take, take care of the poor needy, like, oh, you’re like abusing immigrants.

(16m 24s):
Oh, like people don’t have enough to eat. It’s like, fuck man. Like 2000 years ago they were like wailing about this and like, here we are 2000 years later still dealing with this. And so like in, in some ways that’s like quite depressing that like humanity has not like, I dunno, gotten to a better place. And also there’s like something about this moment and all moments that like, I, I think that even people who like are no longer the type of Christian that we used to be, and maybe in some ways are like, have been like burned by like that sort of language. I think like if you look around at the world and you’re like, things are like not right, this is like not right.

(17m 8s):
Like that is a like moral judgment that you are making and that’s okay. It’s that maybe like a good thing to make moral judgments about some things. And I think that I’m like interested as we like look at this moment and the moments that come after it. Like I don’t, I don’t know, like I’m not trying to start a cult, right? But like, but I do think that that like, this is a moral moment that we’re facing and there’s like some really powerful worldviews that are clashing with one another at like the way that not just the United States of America should be, but if this is happening across, across, across the globe, right?

(17m 48s):
That we’re seeing, like seeing what are our values and how, what’s like the vision for how we structure society and like I, it’s up to us, right? Like the people who are working to make the world in what is in my view a worse place, they’re like working, they spend, they spend their days and nights thinking about this. And so I feel as I’ve been reading this book about the prophets, like it’s one thing to like intellectually know, like I support abortion access, like I support queer rights, like I support like trans medical access, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Like, and sometimes I like write my Congress people and like I protest And I, you know, talk to my neighbors, whatever it might be. But like there’s, there’s something about this sort of like life or deafness, Jeremiah, there’s like a fire burning in my bones that like, is like burning to escape that like this is like, this is a moment and it’s like, I don’t know, I just, I feel like there’s like, there’s like something about, about having both the tools and the inspiration and the motivation and the community and the history to draw upon and the sort of like, I don’t know, like I wanna like just be like, I’m just like fired up.

(18m 55s):
And that I think that like, it’s not okay to just sort of like sit back and we come from queer people and Christians and Jews, like we come from traditions that have like seen a world as it should, as like on fire instead of like, we can fix this. And so like I am, I dunno, just like, I just want us to all be part of that solution. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that there is something too in that our say traditions and practices help us a to practice for the world as, as we want to inhabit it, but also help us, I think in, in the example of the prophets to really like pinpoint what are the ways of protest of action, of intervention that are actually useful and helpful and what our, you know, just show.

(19m 49s):
I, I think that there’s, there’s, there’s some real wisdom in these ancient texts of saying, yeah, like, you might need to, to leave your house and go do some street performance art like Isaiah and Jeremiah in order to call attention to, to these yeah. Moments that we’re living in. And like, and that’s, there’s a, there’s a real beauty and power in engaging, engaging with that work in the public square. Yeah. So as we’ve been doing this for the past 600 episodes, what has been something that has like most surprised you?

(20m 33s):
Hmm. I mean I, I’m really surprised that we’re still going, I dunno if that is the most surprise, but, you know, we have both started other things in the intervening years and have shut other things down. And so I think that like both the consistency of this work over the past 600 episodes, but also the relevance of this work, And I think in relevance in both like really positive ways and also like, ugh, I wish we weren’t still relevant kind of ways is is both. Yeah, both legit. But, but yeah, you know, I I think that that’s, that’s been a really powerful thing And I, And I think it, what it, what it calls me do is to continue to be engaged and to be thinking about how can I be engaged in a way that is that uplifts the, the broader community and that continues to find new things and helpful things and useful things to say even, you know, for the next 600 episodes.

(21m 47s):
What about you? Yeah, you know, this, this is like probably not surprising to anyone else, but like a few, like a year or so ago, I said to my partner, I was like, you know, it’s like really interesting over the past few years I’ve like really started to become like religious. And he looked at me and he was like, are you serious right now? Like, whatcha talking about you’ve been religious like the entire time that I’ve known you? And it was like, it was genuinely shocking to me. I was like, no, no, no. And I, And I think that like, what I, what I meant by that was I think that I had in my mind like engaged with religion and as much as I like, have known intellectually that like my activism and my religion are very much like intertwined, I think that I would’ve said like, oh, well, yeah, I’m like kind of religious, but like in the blow jobs or blessing sort of way and in the like drag brunches worship sort of way, not in the like go to church every week.

(22m 59s):
And he was like, yeah, sure, that’s like how you live out your life. But also at like various points you’ve like prayed the daily office like every morning and every evening, like with other people and by yourself. You like observed like lent by going to a church at lunchtime and like reading the psalms and the prophets every day. You like fairly regularly like read your Bible, you like get up in the morning and you like read sometimes poetry, but sometimes the Psalms like, now you’re Jewish and you do like the daily liturgy. And I was like, oh, you are right. That I think that I, so I think like what has been surprising to me is like I, I very much feel like I don’t want to try to convince anyone else that like they have to be religious in any sort of like quote unquote traditional way.

(23m 49s):
And so I think that when I’m talking to people, especially in my day-to-day life, like outside of my work here, I think I like really emphasize like that empha that that angle of it, of like, but it’s okay if you don’t go to church. Like it’s okay if you don’t read the Bible. And there’s like lots of different ways to be like spiritual, spiritual or religious. And I think that like what was, I guess like surprising to me is that that is true and also that like co like that exists alongside of like, like there’s like power in praying the rosary where there’s power in praising like praying like davening the sea door and then like, yeah, like there’s like something about knitting, but, and there’s also something about having a prayer shawl and that like, you can be deeply religious and also super queer.

(24m 35s):
And it reminds me that like at the reception or the, not the reception, like the party part, the dance party part, at my wedding, one of our friends came up to, to, to me it was actually more, more to Peter’s friend. And he was like, that Brian, that was like so special. He was like, you had like a reli like a deeply religious ceremony at like the end of your, you had this like queer capric super non-traditional people told stories about Grindr and hookups and like, like Peter, Peter being in his underwear. And then you had this like deeply religious like ritual and like, now we’re having this like queer dance party and like you’re making out with all of your friends on the dance floor and like that all of that co can coexist together really special.

(25m 20s):
And I actually think that like, part of the reason I can be so like, yeah man, polyamory is awesome. Like being slutty is like divine is because I’ve like tapped into these like, traditional practices. And so I think, like I am, it’s surprising I guess is that I’m like much more, I like much more traditionally religious now than when we started this work. Even as I think like my theology is probably even more sort of like radical than it was before. I think when we started I was like, maybe there’s a God, maybe there’s, And I got, I wanna go to heaven one day. And so I think I probably have in some ways like a more non-traditional theology, but more traditional practices and, and language.

(26m 7s):
And I think that all kind of feels interconnected in some way. Well, we are looking forward to however many next episodes of this podcast. There are the next 500, 600,000. We, we shall see where the winds take us. Before we go, just a reminder that the Poly Possibilities cohort is starting up soon, so you can get all of the information by going to Queer Theology dot com slash poly possibilities three week cohort. One of the things that I love about this cohort every year is just seeing the community come together, who, many of them who it feels like at the start feel like they’re the only ones in their world who are interested in these intersections and find not only like a whole community of people who are also having these questions, but really see how their insights into relationships can be beneficial and meaningful to, to everyone poly, both poly and non-poly folks.

(27m 10s):
And so make sure that you get on board with that. Again, Queer Theology dot com slash poly possibilities. We would love to have you in the cohort this year. The Queer Theology podcast is just one of many things that we do at Queer Theology dot com, which provides resources, community, and inspiration for L-G-B-T-Q Christians and straight cisgender supporters. To dive into more of the action, visit us at Queer Theology dot com. You can also connect with us online on Facebook, Twitter, Tumblr, and Instagram. We’ll see you next week.