Complicated Communities

(9s):
Welcome to the Queer Theology Podcast. I’m Brian G Murphy. And I’m father Shannon, T l Kearns. We’re the co-founders of Queer Theology dot com and your hosts from Genesis, revelation. The Bible declares good news to LGBTQ plus people, and we want to show you how Tuning each week on Sunday for conversations about Christianity, queerness and transness, and how they can enrich one another. We’re glad you’re here. Welcome back to the Queer Theology Podcast. We’re excited to join you today for another conversation. In one of those kind of weird synchronicity moments, both Brian And I had similar notes of things that were on our mind that, that we wanted to talk about. And so we’re gonna, we’re gonna talk through this idea, and one of the things that I’ve been thinking a lot about lately, I’ve been hanging out with a lot of folks who normally I wouldn’t hang out with and have been kind of thrown into a relationship with them, and it’s causing me to like really challenge a lot of my thinking And I, some of my own biases and, and preconceived notions about like, I don’t know, for lack of a, of a better term, like quote unquote good people and bad people.

(1m 21s):
And, And I think that, like, I, I don’t know, as I look at the world, I see like so much Polarization, right? And I think especially in online communities, but not just online communities, there’s a, there’s a lot of impulse to, to name people as good or bad or right or wrong, or like, these are my people and those are not my people. And, and I’ve just been in these, in these situations with people and forming relationships with people that are like complicating that notion of, of quote unquote good people and bad people or problematic people and whatever the opposite of problematic people is.

(2m 3s):
Yeah. Yeah. And then at the same time, I’ve been reading this book called Cherished Belonging by Father Gregory Boyle. He’s the founder of Homeboy Industries, which is the largest gang intervention program in the world. And it’s this book that’s all about seeing all people, including ourselves as like inherently good and as good just as we are. And so I, I’m gonna maybe start us off with a quote and then we’ll, we’ll launch into this Brian and see, see what resonates with you. So he has this, this quote where he says, he’s talking about like people holding negative views or, or views that we would consider negative.

(2m 47s):
He said they hold this belief not because they’re cruel, but because they are strangers to themselves. That is not a value judgment, but a health assessment for nothing can touch anyone’s goodness, not even holding such a view. Goodness and belonging remain intact no matter what unhealthy notion we find ourselves clinging to. And I read that quote and had to like, put the book down for a little bit and kind of grapple, grapple with my own feelings about it. And so I’m wondering how, how that, how that quote strikes you and, and what, what comes up for you in these, these ideas? Yeah. I mean, I have for a long time now felt like the distinction of good people versus bad people is like not a helpful one for like two reasons.

(3m 36s):
One is that like everyone imagines themselves to be the good people. And So just like practically speaking, it’s like not a useful paradigm because like there’s like not a universally agreed upon definition of good people and bad people. And so like we all, we’re all someone else’s bad person, right? But also, like, even for the people that I would consider like bad people or doing harmful things or people that frustrate me or that I disagree with or whatever, it might be problematic, like doing things that are problematic, I think. And I think this comes from sort of like a moral ethical, perhaps like a religious conviction that like we’re all good people and that, or maybe we’re just neutral people.

(4m 21s):
I don’t know, we’re all like, like we’re good or neutral and that like we can do things that harm, right? And so it’s actually more useful to be like, this thing that you are doing or they’re doing has this effect and that effect causes harm or like brings healing, right? Because I think like two things happen if it’s you. Like when you label someone as like a bad person or a good person, it’s like if they’re a bad person, then like they’re irredeemable and they’re, and if you’re a good person, I’ve just like seen it be used as like an excuse to excuse shitty behavior because it’s like, well, I’m a good person, so therefore like the harmful things that I’ve done don’t count or something.

(5m 8s):
But so that, so like I, that’s the sort of backdrop, and then when you, that particular quote, yeah, I mean, I think that I like intellectually agree with it. And also I also had a catch in Mia sort of like, well, it just Like, is it ex is there like, like is there an excusing happening, right? Where it’s like, because I I of, of this bad behavior or of this person who’s causing harm, like it’s not that they’re cruel, it’s that they’re, And I now, I forget the exact quote, but like, no, they’re, they’re there are stranger to themselves, right? And that like flies in the face of like, I think a, a meme that folks often, I, I’ve been seeing a lot like a, a verbal meme that I’ve even said that like the cruelty is the point, right?

(5m 55s):
That like, there’s a certain segment of, I’ll talk about us, the US population of the US political system and also the US like voters. But it seems to, they like seem to delight in the cruelty. Like I think I already include a light evangelical Christians who like, I’m going to have it and you’re going to hell. And I get to sort of like delight in the fact that like, I’m, I, you’re going there and I’m not. And so it, like, I do some, it does, it does strike me as like, no, some people are cruel. And also in the times where I’ve been subjected to like interpersonal cruelty as opposed to like systemic injustice, and I’ve been close enough to that person to really see the full picture, I’m like, And I hadn’t stopped to think about this until we started talking about, about this book and this quote.

(6m 49s):
I was like, oh, yeah. Like that person is like a stranger to themselves is like deeply uncomfortable. Is afraid. Yeah. And so, like if that’s true about the people that have like harmed me, that I am close enough to sort of like know them three dimensionally, like presumably it’s true about people that I don’t know that well, because it just seems like there’s a, the, the, the pattern here. And so like, how do you hold this tension of like, well, maybe that’s true, but also that doesn’t excuse it, and like, where do you go forward? So that’s sort of all the stuff that sort of bubbles up for me as I hear it, this particular passage.

(7m 30s):
Yeah. And I think, I think that obviously I gave you a quote and I’ve finished the book, and so like, you know, I think that, that he would agree with you and and also say that like, people who delight and cruelty are not healthy people, right? Like going back to like, it’s not a value judgment, it’s a health assessment. One of the things that, that he talks about a lot in this book is that like, then the job becomes like if people are strangers to themselves, if people are living in this state that is unhealthy, a that doesn’t mean that we can’t have boundaries, right?

(8m 10s):
He talks often about like that, that there are certain people that are not welcome or he wouldn’t say not welcome, that are, are invited to go get healthy before they come back to homeboy industries, right? Or they are, they’re invited to like go seek help for a while elsewhere before they come back because their behavior is such that they are harming the community. And like that can’t be allowed. And I think that that’s actually a healthier posture than a lot of churches that I’ve seen that are like, But we can’t tell this person that they can’t come because that wouldn’t be a nice thing to do to them. And then meanwhile, right, the person who’s unhealthy and homophobic, spews whatever they want all over the queer folks in the congregation, right?

(9m 1s):
Like we’ve, we’ve seen that happen over and over again. Yeah. And then the church doesn’t actually do anything to help the person who Right. Is just doing the spewing. Right? It’d be one thing if they were like actually intervening, but they’re like usually not and maybe like don’t have the resources or the bandwidth or the like, expertise to be doing that sort of intervention. Yeah. Yes. But I, but, but his larger point then is I, I think like all about like, what is our role as communities? And, and his big thing is like we as communities need to be creating communities of health and places where people can come back to health and, and Stop being strangers to themselves.

(9m 44s):
And I think that like, that is even more challenging to, to me than, than thinking about the first part of that quote. ’cause like I can intellectually ascend to everyone’s goodness. I struggle to ascend to the fact that I then need to be in community with them. And so, and, And I, And I think that there’s like, there’s nuance there, right? There’s tension there of like, I don’t think that we need to be in relationship with people who are actively harming us. Yeah. But I also don’t think necessarily that we get to like only be around people who think and believe the exact same way that we do.

(10m 26s):
Like I don’t think that that is, that leads to a healthy community either. And so like how do we, how do we make those calls of like, of, of how community forms? And I think that there is something for me about like, there are layers to that, right? Like there is a group of people that I allow in my inner most circle who maybe are people who think and believe the same way I do, and they’re the ones that like I’m gonna be most intimate with and most vulnerable, vulnerable with. And then there’s like another layer, right? And then it comes out and it’s like that outer layer might be folks that I am still in community with, and also they don’t get full access to all of my personhood because like, they can’t, they’re not healthy enough to handle it or, or we’re not in that kind of relationship.

(11m 23s):
I don’t know. That’s a initial thought. Yeah. Yeah. My first impulse went to sort of a similar thing And I was thinking less concentric circles and more just sort of like different contexts. But I think we’re actually saying the same thing. But like, I was thinking I went to Bobby, unsurprisingly, like organizing, right? Where it’s like, well, if we’re talking about like my deepest, most intimate friendships like that, I’m, I’m gonna have like one standard for that. But like, if we’re organizing around food insecurity, like I, it might behoove me to work with people who I don’t know, like maybe think I like queerness is a sin or like, are voting for Republicans or like whatever, like the thing might be that I don’t love as long as we’re able to sort of like come together around this particular common cause and, and sort of sort of being like, like ally, I don’t know if ies is the right word, sort of like partners in a particular thing as opposed to like deep intimate a bride or die align like allies right.

(12m 24s):
With one another. And I’m also thinking about, like, I think we, before we started recording, we were talking about like binary thinking, like yes, no. And so I also think that there’s an element of sort of querying, blurring the binaries around all of this and coupled with boundaries, right? And so like, like for people that I are in my personal life, maybe that some that, that fall somewhere between the people that I trust most intimately that were very aligned on one extreme and people who are actively harming me, like physically and trying to like literally murder me on the other extreme that like, how do I say like, well, I can do this, but like, not that, or I’m gonna like, as long as you behave like this, we can coexist.

(13m 18s):
But like, you don’t, if you’re, I know you don’t really affirm queerness, so like I can have surface level conversations with you, but we’re like, not gonna go deeper, but I’ll like stick around enough that if you wanna change your mind, I’m here. But like, you don’t get an invitation to the dinner party until you’ve like righted your right. Righted your ways. And, and yeah. So I think that there’s like, there’s something about different levels of access for different people. And this also gets back to like the rubric not being, are you a good person or are you a bad person? Or like, have you gone and gotten healed? Right? And then you, and then you can come back once you’re fully healed.

(13m 58s):
Or like, you can only come to my church if you’re like already a perfect ally. Like obviously no, but maybe you like, don’t get to preach at the church if you’re going to preach anti-gay things. Right? Right. Or like, maybe you’re like, you don’t get to be on the board of elders if you like, don’t think that women should be able to be in leadership, but like, if you can sit and listen and have cordial conversation, like Yeah, come on in. Right? Like that’s a different Yeah. Even if you don’t sort of believe the same ways, And I think it’s less about right. Belief, right? But sort of the impact of your actions, which sometimes flows from your beliefs, but sometimes is in contradiction to that.

(14m 43s):
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think that’s a really helpful distinction and nuance. And especially when it comes to like the difference between beliefs and actions, especially in religious spaces, right? Where it’s so, because so often we have equated what it means to, I don’t know, I’ll speak from my church, like be a Christian with belief of like, do you believe the right things that kind of, I don’t know, putting it back on action of like, how are you behaving is, is I think sometimes a little bit helpful. And I know that like folks who grew up in conservatism get a little bit twitchy about that because that has also been used as a weapon.

(15m 26s):
But, but I think it is like in these moments, you know, thinking about how our, how we’re showing up in spaces and how our actions are impacting people can, can be really helpful. And I think that your point about organizing was also really helpful because I think that sometimes, and especially, I don’t know, I’ve seen this a lot in leftist spaces in particular of, of this idea of like, not only do you have to like believe all of the right things about the issue that you’re organizing on, like there’s an ideological purity, right? That almost comes with before you can organize on this thing, before you can be a part of our collective.

(16m 9s):
Like you have to ascent in the exact way that we need you to ascent. And I, I just don’t think that that is necessarily helpful and especially in like, the times that we’re living in where we’re desperately gonna need like broad coalitions working really, really hard to like, fix the massive problems we’re facing. Like figuring out what are deal breakers for each of us individually. Like who, who can we actually organize with and like, who can’t we organize with is gonna be, I think, important. I don’t know. And I’m, I guess I’m feeling particularly nudged to maybe be a little bit more expansive in who I’m able to and willing to work with in these times because things are so, so important, right?

(16m 60s):
The issues that we’re organizing on across a wide variety of things are just really, really vital. Yeah. Especially like for you when you’re in a, in a rural republican dominant state and a republic rural area of the state, like, yeah, listen, If I Guy, you’ve gotta like work with what you’ve got. Yeah. Yeah. If I, if I only worked with people that like I fully agreed with, I would literally be working by myself, like alone in my, in my house. Like there would literally be no one else. Yeah. For me, there’s also a balance between, on the flip side, when we’re talking about ourselves there, for me there’s a balance between self-reflection and self-judgment.

(17m 44s):
And how do I try to be self-reflexive of who I am and how I’m showing up in the world in general, in particular spaces, in particular relationships in any given moment, the actions that I’m like doing or not doing, the impact that I’m having while also being gentle with myself and like holding that judgment lightly while also not using that gentleness as like a get outta the jail card as, as an excuse to get away with shit. Right? Like, I, like, I can’t be like, well I am queer so therefore like I’m a good person, so therefore I can’t possibly be doing harm.

(18m 28s):
Or like, I read James Cone or I have a black friend, or like, I, like I I work with trans folks. Like therefore, like I can’t, I have like no room to grow, right? And sort of always sort of like being mindful of where my, where like my growing edges and where might I be like the annoying person in the room that someone is having to like, struggle to organize with. ’cause like, I think it’s like, it’s tempting. I know, I know we’ve talked about this in previous episodes, like especially as, as queer people who have had religion and the Bible used against us to then sort of like reverse that and see ourselves as oh, like we’re the oppressed ones and the Bible is good news for us.

(19m 14s):
Which the Bible is good news for queer people, right? And to see like, it only is a comforting word. And so how do we hold and tension this sort of being comforted, being challenged, like while also I’m, I am, I am all good, but also I can’t, that’s not good enough sometimes. And to like, I can’t let myself off the hook And I can be good And I can still cause like immense harm. And that can all still be true. And as I say that, probably the more harm you’ve caused, the more important it is for you to remember your goodness so that you don’t spiral into like, well I can’t ever do anything right And I might as well just give up.

(19m 60s):
I’m a terrible person. ’cause like you going to some sort of like pity spiral about an ouch you caused someone doesn’t hurt, help anyone. But sort of like being able to stand and be like, ah, yeah, I, I fucked that up. Whether it’s like in a moment or whether it’s sort of like, oh, like my whole worldview is being challenged And I, the way that I thought things worked aren’t, And I, I maybe I need to to shift a little bit on that. So yeah. That there’s, it feels like, yeah, I’m just challenged by like grace for others. Grace for yourself, grace in a way that isn’t weaponized to excuse, to make, to make like marginalized people, excuse sh shitty behavior grace that isn’t used to let yourself off the hook.

(20m 48s):
But also that is sort of like, sees that we are all made in the image of God. And so like then what, like what does that mean? I think about that a lot. ’cause I, I like some, I often not always, I often go through the morning morning prayers for in Judaism, and one of the things is like, like for like, for creating me the image of God. And so like every day I’m reminding myself like, I am created in the image of God. I’m created in the image of God, I’m created in the image of God. And then like, what does that, like, what does that, like what does that mean for me? And how do I show up as that? And it’s, I think it’s, it’s, it’s also true for everyone else. So like what does it mean that like, oh, not to get too personal, but like I have a in-law that is like a homophobe and it’s like, what do I do?

(21m 40s):
Like what does it mean that he’s created an image of God? Right? Like, I don’t wanna be besties with him. He was not invited to my wedding, but like I see him at our niece’s events sometimes and like, so like, how do I, because I don’t wanna not be there for my niece, right? Like, so how do you hold all that intention and like Yeah, yeah. Messy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It is messy. And I think that like, I don’t know, I I think that part of me is, is helped by going back to Boyle’s comment about people not being healthy. And I think that this, you know, I think of a lot about my mom, right?

(22m 22s):
And, and like I, my relationship with her is, is strained. It is maybe a generous way of, of putting that. But like, I also have a ton of compassion for her because I know how deeply wounded she has been in her life. And I understand very intimately like that the, the construction she has done around her faith is such to keep herself safe from that wounding, right?

(23m 2s):
Like I, I can see it. And also just because I can see it And I can understand it And I have a lot of compassion for it, doesn’t mean that we are close. Right? And doesn’t mean that like she gets to be in that kind of inner circle. Yeah. It doesn’t make sense. But it has, it has really helped me, I think to have more compassion for her to like, and to, I don’t, I I don’t wanna say forgive, I don’t, I don’t, I don’t know what the, what the word is, but like, to, to be able to, in some ways, like release some Yeah, I was gonna say.

(23m 43s):
Yeah, I was gonna say release. Yep. Yeah, Because it’s like, I, I can like, I understand it and that understanding has been helpful for me. And I, And I think that like what you’re saying too about it’s important that we, we, we understand our own inherent goodness too, right? Like, especially for those of us that grew up in traditions that like did not affirm our inherent goodness. Like that can be a helpful corrective while also holding that tension of like, And I still screw up and there is still more room to grow and there are places in which I am not charitable And I am not living in to full health And I amm not, you know, in touch with myself And I, and so it, not to like leave it on a murky note, but I do think that there is something here about like being, learning to be comfortable in or dealing with or living in the tension of it all, the nuance of it all, the gray of it, all the, you know, queerness of it all.

(24m 47s):
I, I think is the, is a move toward health, right? Like, and we’re, yeah. It feels like we need more people willing to live in that space in these days in particular. Yeah. You know, I am, I am to, to, as we wrap up, I, I was not at all thinking about this until just now, but I’m realizing that the, this conversation echoes like a number of conversations that we’ve been having inside of Sanctuary collective with people who are, have complicated relationships with their families that are starting to get back in contact with relatives that they haven’t talked to in a long time, that are starting to put up boundaries with relatives that they have been in, in, in close relationship with for a while that are moving and getting married and getting divorced and leaving communities, starting new communities, figuring out they want out communities, recognizing that the communities they’re part of are harmful and what’s like, what to do with that.

(25m 43s):
And like, so this is like, these are conversations that we’re like really having on a regular basis inside of Sanctuary Collective. And so if you’re like, I got a messy, I got a messy life sometimes or if things feel complicated, like we would absolutely love to like wrestle alongside of you, inside of Sanctuary Collective, you can find more enjoying at Queer Theology dot com slash community. The Queer Theology podcast is just one of many things that we do at Queer Theology dot com, which provides resources, community, and inspiration for LGBTQ Christians and straight cisgender supporters. To dive into more of the action, visit us at Queer Theology dot com. You can also connect with us online on Facebook, Twitter, Tumblr, and Instagram. We’ll see you next week.