Rural God, City God

(9s): Welcome to the Queer Theology Podcast. I’m Brian G Murphy. And I’m father Shannon, T l Kearns. We’re the co-founders of Queer Theology dot com and your hosts from Genesis, revelation. The Bible declares good news to LGBTQ plus people, and we want to show you how Tuning each week on Sunday for conversations about Christianity, queerness and transness, and how they can enrich one another. We’re glad you’re here. Hello there. And welcome to August. If you’re in the Northern hemisphere, I hope that you are staying cool. It’s blistering here where I am not sure about where you are, Shannon, of how hot it’s where you are, yet it’s blistering there too. He’s nodding his head. And for our southern hemisphere friends, I hope you’re enjoying your winter. I saw on a update from someone that we follow in Australia and he was saying it’s like five degrees Celsius there. (54s): So that’s, that’s wild. ’cause I’m like, that sounds delightful to me right now. And so before we started recording this, Shannon And I were just sort of like catching up on our lives and it occurred to us that We are living in two very different places and we were just sort of like reflecting on the sort of like what it, what it means to like be somewhere. So I am at, at the time of this recording, I’m living in New York City and it’s a population of like around, I forget like 9 million, 8 million. And Shannon is living in independent, Shannon is living in a small town in Kansas, which is a population of about 8,000. So wildly different experiences. (1m 36s): And I think that like, I don’t know, there’s like something about, we both live in America obviously, and there’s something about like real America and like what is real America when people say that they probably actually mostly mean like suburban red states. And I’m obviously in a blue state, but not in the suburbs and neither is really in the suburbs. And we’re just thinking about like the ways in which God has talked about being present in cities, not in cities in the desert, not in the desert. And we just think there’s like something there about place and location. And so we want to sort of explore that together. So like sh anything else to sort of add to that sort of setup, Shay? So I, I just think it’s also interesting in this current moment that we’re in to like reflect upon how the spaces that we’re in shape our religious lives and, and in some ways like our religious imagination and also like how we might be able to both find God in all of the spaces that we’re in, but also like help to potentially challenge the imagination of the, of the space we’re in if it needs it. (2m 40s): Right. Yeah. Yeah. And I I I would actually probably posit that like both the spaces that we’re in need some kind of challenging. Yeah. It’s just gonna look really different. Yeah. First off, what I was thinking, what prompted this was I had was journaling a little while ago And I was reflecting upon the ways in which desert imagery gets used in religious texts that, you know, the Israelites wandered in the desert, Jesus went out into the desert. And then even like post post scripture, like especially within Christianity, there’s like the desert fathers sort of Christian monastics, Christian hermits. There’s sort of like this sort of the sense that sort of aloneness can be like one way that you access God. (3m 24s): And there’s sort of I think a romanticizing about the countryside, the country solitude from Walt Whitman to like classic American paintings, just sort of, when we talk about quote unquote real America, what sort of, what image sort of conjures that to mind there. And I don’t know, I was just thinking like there’s like a hustle and a bustle and an electricity sort of in the air in New York City and like what if God is just as much in like the sparks on the subway track and in the hiss of the steam coming up from the manhole and in the honks of the taxi cabs as God is in the rustling of the wind and the pitter-patter of drizzle on the riverbed. (4m 12s): And yeah, so I think that there’s, so I was like wanting to like reclaim urban life thinking about the ways in which, you know, Gotham in, in Batman comics is sort of like this like place of decay and crime and Sodom and gamar, these like, sort of like cities being dangerous. And the reality is I just Googled it, like 82% of Americans live in cities and urban areas. So like real America is like cities like this is like where people actually live. And so there’s like something there, which is not to say cities are perfect, there’s like gross economic inequality in many cities, especially like in New York City. (4m 54s): But so I, yeah, so there’s, but like, so I yes. I’m just like noodling on on that. And so like, I guess like what are the ways in which like, ’cause Shay you’ve lived in both cities Yeah. And rural areas. And so like what are the ways in which, and you, you like what from like rural to city back to rural, and it’s like what are some ways in which your understanding of like what it means to live in the country or in the city have like shifted and also how you’ve experienced God in in those places? Yeah, I mean, just to, just to touch on a couple of things that you said, you know, one of the things that jumps out at me in thinking about imagery, right? We see in, in the things that you mentioned, Gotham, Saddam, and Kimura. (5m 34s): But in general, like all throughout scripture there is this sense of cities as sites of wickedness as opposed to gardens, right? That there is always this like juxtaposition between the, the city and the garden, which I, I find really kind of fascinating and, and like you said, we do know that there are gross economic inequalities in cities and yes. Also in rural communities, like yeah, totally be rural. But one of the things that I think is, is interesting is that there’s also much better safety nets Yeah. Inside of cities. And like we can talk about like there are lots of reasons for that. (6m 17s): Not all of them good, right? Like there there has been like a massive, you know, economic pull out of rural communities that has like devastated many of the things that yeah would have been historically safety nets in the past. And, and so like that’s a problem. But I do think that there is just simply because of like not only density of population, but also like density of resources that there are more protections for you should you need it, right? There are, there are shelters that you can go to, there are organizations that can possibly provide for your needs in ways that like don’t exist in, in the town that I’m in, like I think there’s maybe a shelter. (7m 10s): And yet there is also like poverty and people experiencing homelessness in a city of 8,000 people. And so one could also say like, the failures of the rural community to not take care of, of their population is higher. So like that was one thing that kind of stuck out to me as you were talking. I also reflect upon how, especially where I am, I, I think that there is a combination, particularly here in Kansas and in Oklahoma where I’m spending some time where we’re not just rural, we’re also, it’s still kind of considered the Midwest, but it is, it feels south to me in a way. (7m 56s): Like I’ve never lived this far south before. There is an overt religiosity everywhere I go. Like I have never been told to have a blessed day more in my life than the last like two years in a not sarcastic way, right? Like, I think people have told me to have a blessed day on the internet and in, in yeah. Urban spaces, but it was sarcastic here it’s like actually genuine. And so, but so I think about like how that overt religiosity kind of plays out and, and also it is expected that everyone is on the same page and, and on board with that religiosity, with those expressions and that you are grateful for them. (8m 46s): And so I find myself often deeply uncomfortable in both like, oh, that was a very sweet and encounter at the quick trip, but also like, why are, why are we saying that to people and what is the assumption behind that? And not to mention like the fact that there are, I often joke about the town that I’m living in, it feels like there are more churches than people and like how, how does that play out? And like the assumption is that you go to church, but there are all of these tiny churches, right? And like how does that impact how we’re taking care of our community and showing up for each other and, and is there a sense of I take care of the people in my congregation but not this other congregation. (9m 26s): And I think that that’s really fascinating too, all while saying I, I do feel like there is definitely a more community minded spirit here in Kansas than I experienced in Minneapolis. And I think partially that is ’cause like Minneapolis is kind of a weird beast of a city in that it is very Midwest and like lots and lots of people grew up in Minneapolis and so like they have their friends that they’ve had their friends since kindergarten. So, and, and so as someone who moved there, it was very hard to find and make community. It was just not set up for that in, in the ways that like when I moved to Kansas, even before I moved, I already had a community here. (10m 14s): Yeah. Because they were just so like excited to welcome people and especially excited to like, welcome outsiders and that was not something I experienced in Minneapolis. And so I think that like there is a hospitality here, right? That is not the hospitality that I experienced in, in the city of Minneapolis. It also reminds me like when you show up to a small church or a small synagogue, like often, especially like if you’re younger, like, and like that, they’re like just like so excited that it’s like there’s someone new. And so I could see moving to this small town, you are like not young, but you’re not old. You’re like in your forties, you’re queer, you’re an artist. (10m 56s): And so I could imagine those types of people in your small town being like, PE people, people like you don’t move here. So we’re like, we’re so excited about that. Whereas like in Minneapolis it’s like, oh, you’re like a queer artist, like moving to a city like cool. We got, we have a lot of those already. Yeah. Yeah. So there’s an element that just like, I, I see that parallel there. Yeah, I, I remember when I was living in Los Angeles, another like, yeah, the other, one of the other largest cities in America, I remember my, my predominantly LGBT synagogue was partnering with Sage, the sort of nonprofit for LGBT, older adults and elders to do like a Hanukkah party for like the Jewish folks, a part of that organization. (11m 40s): And I remember being like, oh yeah, like if you’re old and you live in a city, like, especially like if you’re a queer person, like you can be part of sage and then like the 20 somethings and the 30 somethings and the 40 somethings from like the queer synagogue will come and celebrate Hanukkah with you. Like, and they can just like hop on the bus and get there. Whereas like if you live somewhere else, you have to drive further. You’re just more spread out. There might not be like a d there’s only so many queer people in your, in your small town that there is just sort of like a critical mass of people that makes, especially for queer life, there’s like a vibrancy there that there’s not, there’s a, it’s a different type of vibrancy in small, like small town gay bars. (12m 22s): And so I was like sort of struck by that element of it. And I do think that like, it’s really easy in big cities to feel surrounded by people and alone. I think because people have their lives and their friends or like, and sometimes in big cities like their careers and so they’re just sort of like go, go, go, go, go. And so like, it can be harder to plug in and make those connections and also if you like, are able to sort of take the time and find those people that like, there’s something really special about being able to, I don’t know, like I live in the same building as two of my friends, right? (13m 11s): Like when I, I’ve like often lived within walking distance of like seven friends, eight friends, which is when I lived in the suburbs, like I had some, like a few friends in my neighborhood, but most friends I had to drive to get to. And so there’s just sort of like this closeness that, that makes like casual connections easier or like spur of the moment connections easier. And that, because especially in New York City, it’s a very public transit heavy city like millionaire CEOs and homeless people are like riding the same subways together. And so there’s like no illusions of like separateness, like we are physically smushed together and have to figure out how to occupy the same space together. (13m 52s): Which is like, not to say that like the millionaires are like suddenly like more generous or like not racist because of that experience, but there’s just sort of like a, it’s like a different, it, there’s like orients you to the other in a different way. And I, you know, I it’s, it’s interesting when folks come from other places to visit of all different types of backgrounds that there’s like the, the city can like feel scary to them ’cause there’s just like people everywhere and it’s loud and there’s someone asking for money and there’s like someone sleeping on the corner and like, what do you do with all of that? And it’s like someone who’s lived in a city my entire adult life, it’s just like, oh, these are just like the people that make up the city with me. You don’t actually have to be scared of them. (14m 32s): I’m scared of being in, in the suburbs or, or, or like in a rural place where it’s like there’s no houses for as far as I can see. It’s dead silent. Like that’s terrifying to me. Like I want, I want to like be able to hear the person on the other side of my wall and then there’s like this, like this closeness that there to me feels like some sort of Divine synergy. And it’s interesting because as you’re talking, I I think that that same communal closeness is in rural communities, right? And it’s the sense of there are only so much of us, so we have to figure out how to get along, right? Like yeah, if you, you can’t, if you get mad at the one person who owns the one restaurant in town, like you gotta figure that out because there’s nowhere else to go. (15m 21s): Or like there’s one guy who, you know, mows lawns or shovel snow. So like yeah, you gotta, you gotta, it’s like the town mechanic. Exactly. You know, there aren’t a lot of choices and there is beauty in that, right? It’s you like figure out, you know, like you said, how to get along, you figure out how to build community informed community. And I think that like the difference, right? People I think often conflate rural with suburban, which is like very different. Like there is a, there is a, an illusion of self-sufficiency that one can have when you live in the suburbs that is like not possible in either urban spaces or rural spaces. (16m 4s): Like it’s just not, there is no illusion that like I’m making it on my own when I have this community around me. Right? And I, I look at, I look at that And I, there was a, I I think I’ve told this story before of like when I first moved here and the bed that I ordered like wasn’t getting put together correctly and within 10 minutes someone had found like someone with a metal grinder to like fix the bed that I had ordered from Amazon. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. And in a way that like had I been in another space, I would’ve, you know, driven to loads in the suburbs and like, or purchased a new whatever and this was a real sense of community like gathering around to make, make this possible. (16m 51s): And I also think that there’s something here in, And I don’t know, I don’t know what this is exactly, but like I’m thinking about like for queer progressive people of faith, there are challenges in both in finding and making community and like living out your religious life in both urban and rural spaces. Like here the closest like overtly affirming church that I feel like would have my back is almost an hour away, right? And so like if I want to make, if I wanna be a part of a church community, like I’m probably going to have to travel in, in a different way and in the, in the midst of the like overt religiosity, which in some cases seems like it would make engaging in faith easier. (17m 45s): It actually sometimes feels like for a trans person in rural America, like it actually feels less easy, right? That they’re, that that overt Christian display like sometimes makes me feel unsafe or like excluded. Yeah. I’m not in a space where I can, where I can worship. Whereas like I think in, in urban spaces, right? Like you have options, there are options of congregations and synagogues and all different sorts of, of places to engage in worship. And also there are so many options of so many things that like engaging in religious community is a choice and it’s not a choice that people are always making. (18m 29s): And so like how do you build that community? Which I think brings me to like my larger point in all of this. And I was thinking of this in the very, from the very beginning when you were talking about, you know, God in the his of the subway and the manhole covers that like, all of this brings me back to an aspect of attention and like how do we train our attention to find the divine where we are? Right? And I think that like there is this sense of back the monastics, right? There was this sense of like, there is so much happening in the city that I have to go to the caves and the desert and the whatever in order to have the space and silence to like hear the voice of the divine. (19m 14s): Yeah. But I think that almost all of them would then say it, the intention was never to then remain there. It was always to then train yourself to then come back to the community with a new musculature to be able to hear right where you are. Yeah. And I think that that is the, the work that’s in front of us of like how do we train ourselves to tune in and pay attention where we are to finding the divine. Yeah. I’m, I’m, that really resonates with me this sort of like paying attention piece that, so I turned 40 like a few weeks ago at this point and Andrea Gibson actually died the day before I turned 40, which was like just weird clusterfuck of emotion for me. (20m 3s): But I was just like thinking about the ways in which they, Andrea Gibson, like really like paid attention and it was like in the particularities and the specificities of their poems and their observations and their musings like that I think is what really like crackled and sizzled for people. Like, I, like I, I remember the first, the first poem I think that I ever introduced me to Andrew Gibson, like, I don’t know 15 years ago was, was probably say, I think it’s called Say Yes When Two Violins are placed in a room, if a court on one violin is struck, the other violin will sound that note. (20m 45s): If this is your definition of hope, this Is for you. And it’s like it starts with this like specific thing of like a string on a violin and then like that becomes like hope. And I don’t know, like a violin isn’t inherently hopeful, right? But like there’s, they, they noticed something in this like two violins strings resonating togetherness of it. And it reminds me of like Mary Oliver’s poem, instructions for Living a Life Pay Attention, be astonished to Tell about it. And that like, I think that’s the work that we have been doing here. What that that we before like rambling about before, before I started recording this was like that I, as I was turning approaching 40 and turning 40, I’ve just been like reflecting on my life and very, very content with it and very pleased with it. (21m 35s): And there’s been a lot that’s gone really well and a lot that’s gone really terribly. And I think that my life today looks like absolutely nothing like what I hoped it would look like when I was 12 or 16 or 18 or 22 or 24. And also like, it’s so fucking fabulous. Like it’s just fantastic. Like, I’m so grateful for it. And, And I think that so much of that is because of the paying attention that queering theology has done for me, that I’m so thankful that I’m queer because it like forced me to question everything around me. (22m 15s): And even before we Shay you, you And I started doing this work together, I was like, I really had to like figure out like what is my life? Who am I, what is the purpose of life? What is God? What is the universe? Where do I fit into all of this? I didn’t have all of the answers to all that figured out, but like queerness and not fitting into the culture at, in 1998, 2003, whenever like forced me to this sort, like forced me to pay attention And that like, the more that I do this work, it’s like I feel like that’s where the juicy stuff of life is. And I think that this, this work, like we have a podcast, we have a book coming out next year. (22m 56s): We don’t, it’s spoiler alert, we don’t make very much money from it. So like, we’re certainly not doing it for the money, but like, it, it is sort of like a work that we bring ourselves to, but like it’s, we started this work because we were sort of doing it as a personal practice already on our own and we found immense value in it and we wanted to share that with others. And so like, I know this started with the city and the country, but like I think that there’s like something here about the paying attention to it. Like God is already everywhere. It’s if you’ll pay attention and look for them, will you, will you find God? And so like, yeah, I’m just, I would love to hear from y’all also like where are the ways in which like God shows up like in your particular place because like, I only in the same way that we’re always talking about, like, everyone has different experiences of queerness and so we need them all to fully understand the divine. (23m 49s): I’ve only ever lived in suburban Maryland in Los Angeles and New York City and with some stints in, with some stints in like, not like suburban Boston and a little bit of time in, in small town Michigan. But like I’ve, I’ve only have a handful of experiences, right? And so like where are the ways in which like God is showing up in y’all’s life? I dunno, send us an email or come onto Instagram and, and share that with us. Anything oth other, any other like sort of like musings on God in cities and God in the country. For you, Shea I just echo what you said. You know, I think that we can find the divine everywhere and, and part of the work then is like, how do we, how do we tune ourselves to, to notice better? (24m 41s): And I, I think, you know, reading poetry is one way and dabbling in writing poetry, even bad poetry is another way. And, you know, going to, again, the, the artists always can help us point the way forward. And so what, who are the, who are the artists that you’re looking to right now as, as people who are helping you to see in new ways? And would love to hear that too. If you wanna share. The Queer Theology podcast is just one of many things that we do at Queer Theology dot com, which provides resources, community, and inspiration for LGBTQ Christians and straight cisgender supporters. To dive into more of the action, visit us at Queer Theology dot com. (25m 22s): You can also connect with us online on Facebook, Twitter, Tumblr, and Instagram. We’ll see you next week.