An interesting one today with an extended interview/discussion with Konstantin Kisin co-host of the Triggernometry YouTube channel and Podcast and author of An Immigrant's Love Letter to the West. Topics covered include potential biases in the mainstream and heterodox spheres, media coverage in the covid era, debate within the heterodox sphere, the dangers of focusing on interpersonal relationships, and whether the WEF is really using wokism to make everyone eat bugs and live in pods. It's fair to say that we do not see eye to eye on various issues but Konstantin puts in a spirited defence for his positions and there are various positions where a two-person consensus is achieved. Matt was physically present but he preferred to occupy the spiritual position of The Third for this conversation, given Chris' greater familiarity with Konstantin's output.Prior to the interview, we have an extended, somewhat grievance-heavy, opening segment in which we discuss 1) the recent damages awarded in the 2nd Sandyhook court case against Alex Jones, 2) Russian apologetics and the heterodox sphere, and 3) Institutional Distrust and Conspiracy Spirals. Dare we say this is a thematically consistent episode? Maybe... in any case, there should be plenty for people to agree or disagree with, which is partly why our podcast exists.So join us in this voyage into institutional and heterodox biases and slowly come to the dreaded conclusion that philosophers might be right about something... epistemics might actually matter.LinksBloomberg article on Alex Jone's almost $1 Billion damagesJRE: #1848 - Francis Foster & Konstantin KisinTriggernometry episode with Sam Harris on Trump, Religion, and Wokeness (Featuring Epoch Times ad read)Triggernometry episode with Harry Miller on excessive policingKonstantin's appearance on the Dark Horse PodcastNew Republic article on the Heterodox figures touring for Orban's governmentInvestigative Atlantic Article on the Epoch TimesTwitter Thread by Konstantin on a recent speech by PutinTwitter Thread by Konstantin outlining why he thinks many have grown to distrut the mediaA Special Place in Hell: The Adventures of Baron Munchausen By Proxy

In this bitesize decoding, a conservative columnist, a religious icon carver, and a tortured ex-psychologist walk into a Daily Wire studio and try to hash out some solution of the meta-meaning-crisis. In an astounding twist it turns out it involves embracing traditional Christianity. Who could have guessed?Join us on Jordan’s religious powered rocket as we consider the esoteric mystery of tableware, how fiction is probably true, and try to uncover what’s the deal with atheist materialists anyway?In a nutshell, it's the same old drum that's being beaten: it only seems like science does better than religion at explaining things, because religion trumps science because God does causality in mysterious non-material ways. Maybe ways that have something to do with symbols and meaning or whatever. Ho hum - this is why it's a mini-decoding and not a full episode. It's more than OK to skip this one if you feel you've already got a handle on Jordan and Pageau's jam. But honestly, it's maybe all worth it to hear Pageau's explain 'vertical causation'. Try to follow the argument there, we dare you.Along the way Matt and Chris will also teach us valuable lessons like how to deal with road rage bullies or aggressive bull sharks and how if you really want to be a Christian it’s ok to go to mass.LinksDouglas Murray and Jonathan Pageau | #290

Fellow decoders: a few weeks ago Chris and Matt were invited to virtually attend a lecture at Macquarie University that promised to be of interest for the podcast. And that lecture was presented by the philosophy professor Neil Levy on the intriguing topic of 'Intellectual Virtue Signalling'. That is the status-seeking advertising of what is commonly perceived as intellectual virtues. We found Neil's thesis extremely compelling, with clear applications to a lot of the stuff we observe week on and week out on DTG. So, naturally, we swallowed our pride and our eternal disdain for philosophy and begged Neil to grace our humble show with his presence. Neil kindly agreed and we proceeded to have an enjoyable conversation with our patented meandering waffle juxtaposed against Neil's careful philosophizing.Before the interview, we also spend a little bit of time spelling out our policy on being abusive to the gurus. Here it is in summary: Don't do it! Robust criticism, ok. Personal abuse/doxing, is not ok. Got it? Good!Prof. Levy holds a dual position at the Faculty of Philosophy at Oxford University. He publishes not only in practical ethics and moral philosophy but also across diverse topics in cognition, addiction, and pathology. Neil has also written a number of books, most recently:Bad Beliefs: Why they happen to good people (2021)Consciousness and Moral Responsibility (2014)'Bad Beliefs' is directly related to the podcast, and is available freely online!We heartily recommend this interview, and might even go so far as to say Neil has helpfully provided us with a bit of conceptual framework that undergirds some high-level stuff that's happening within and across the quantum circuits of the Gurometer. Thanks for that Neil!

It's finally here! In what has to be our most meta episode to date, Matt and Chris tackle the meta-philosophy / meta-spirituality / meta-science that is Sensemaking. You might say sensemaking is sense to the power of 2. But what is sensemaking, really? Well, that's a tricky question because as Jordan Hall says; no one can simply be told what sensemaking is. It is the escape hatch out of The Matrix, it is the finger pointing at the moon, it is a possibility space in an nth dimensional cube.... whatever the hell it is, some people are pretty sure it's the solution to all of humanity's problems. Exciting!So, since defining sensemaking is like trying to staple a jellyfish to a wall, it is very understandable that Jordan Hall, Jamie Wheal, and Daniel Schmachtenberger would take 2 hours and 40 minutes out of their busy schedule, and have a meta-conversation about this meta-topic, where they try to decipher exactly what this strange beast is and do some sensemaking about sensemaking. And it's even MORE understandable that Chris Kavanagh and Matthew Browne would take even longer out of their own schedules to try to analyse THAT discourse: sensemaking about sensemaking about sensemaking. Shifting to power notation for brevity, this episode is sensemaking cubed, which equals sense to the power of 4. How did we go? Well, sensemaking is like an elephant and everybody's got a piece of it. Chris is tweaking the tail, Matt's busy fondling the trunk, Daniel's inspecting the ears, and Jordan Hall is riding that bad boy, trampling poor Jamie Wheal and scaring all the monkeys. But we get there, we get there... So join us as we operate in 75 simultaneous paradigms, make not just sense but anti-nonsense, and discover what the difference really is between a puzzle and a photograph.LinksRebel Wisdom: Making Sense of Sensemaking: Daniel Schmachtenberger, Jamie Wheal, Jordan HallAlexandros Marinos & Eric's Twitter BrouhahaJonathan Pageau's angry thread on the 'arrogant secularists' at DTG and how little we know about demonologyMatt's epic tweet-a-long thread

Today Chris and Matt are visited by Helen Lewis, a journalist, editor, and writer with what could very fairly be described as a rather distinguished career in those fields. Helen has previously worked at the New Statesman and is currently with The Atlantic. She has also served as a Women in the Humanities Honorary Writing Fellow at Oxford University and also on the steering committee for the Reuters Institute for Journalism at Oxford University. Her books include Difficult Women: A History of Feminism in 11 Fights. Helen's work covers a broad array of topics including politics, feminist issues, and contemporary/online culture. She is also known for a particular long-form interview which became a 'viral moment' when she sat down for a challenging discussion with one, Jordan B. Peterson.Most recently Helen has produced "The Church of Social Justice" for BBC4, which asks whether political movements might be taking the place of traditional religions in Britain. A question which never generates any controversy whatsoever. She is also working on an upcoming project that looks at internet gurus and the ecosystems they spawn. So, we were glad to take the opportunity to catch up and talk about the intersections with our rather idiosyncratic collection of interests.Join us as we try to decipher whether everything is a religion, if social justice requires a pope, and how exactly can we resolve ALL of those thorny culture war debates. We might not ultimately reach any satisfying answers but Helen does offer her one rule for life at the end of the interview!Also featured on this episode: our most defensive response to a review to date, and a segment on the dangers of JAQing off!LinksThe Church of Social Justice (BBC4)How Social Justice became a New Religion (The Atlantic)Helen's Book: Difficult Women- A History of Feminism in 11 FightsHelen's interview with Jordan Peterson for British CQJoe Rogan's Recent Vote Republican ClipChris' appearance on Embrace The Void discussing definitions of religion

A special crossover episode (long anticipated- at least by us) with one-half of the Knowledge Fight podcast. Specifically, we have Dan Friesen on to enlighten us about all things Alex Jones, the recent trial with the Sandy Hook parents, and to compare notes regarding gurus and conspiracy theorists. Not to mention to give Chris the chance to demonstrate his inner fanboy!Dan is a guy with an encyclopaedic knowledge of Alex Jones and some very astute insights into conspiracy psychology. In fact, Matt and Chris think he might be most accurately considered as something of a rogue anthropologist doing deep ethnographic observation of the InfoWars ecosystem. Dan, meanwhile, maintains he's just a guy! Either way, Dan and the Knowledge Fight podcast are definitely our kind of bag. We hope you too enjoy the conversation and there is plenty of Knowledge Fight episodes (700+) if this leaves you wanting more.Also, in this episode, we discuss Sam Harris' recent online travails, Jordan Peterson's appearance on Lex, and at the end of the episode, Matt finally learns what the podcast is really about! LinksKnowledge Fight podcastJordan's live-tweeting of the trialAlex Jone's trial highlightKnowledge Fight's post-trial review episode (712) with the Sandy Hook parents' trial lawyersArticle on Knowledge Fight in the New York TimesDan & Jordan on CNNArticle on that Paul Joseph Watson audio recordingJordan Peterson: Life, Death, Power, Fame, and Meaning | Lex Fridman Podcast #313Sam Harris' appearance on Triggernometry

Ahead of the forthcoming sense-making full course decoding of Jordan Hall, Daniel Schmactenberger, and Jamie Wheal (see here!), we offer a bite-sized morsel of sense-making to whet your episode. Here Matt and Chris engage in a 'short' session of gurunalysis, or guruology (if you prefer the original Latin). The subject of the gurunalysis is a conversation between the cognitive scientist & philosopher, John Vervaeke and the amateur theologian/icon carver, Jonathan Pageau. Specifically, we join these two as they apply sensemaking to delve deep into the spine-chilling world of demonology. Are demons real creatures, patterns of thought that resonant in collective cognition, or maybe both? And what about daemons, egregores, banshees, how do they fit in?Join us for this special mini decoding and find out!LinksRebel Wisdom: Demons & the Machine, John Vervaeke & Jonathan PageauRebel Wisdom: Making Sense of Sensemaking: Daniel Schmachtenberger, Jamie Wheal, Jordan Hall

This episode is a little bit of this and a little bit of that.The main portion of the episode features an interview with returning guest, Elgen Strait, host of the Falling Out podcast. Previously we've had Elgen on to talk about his life growing up as a second-generation member of Reverend Moon's Unification Church (the Moonies) and also to help us decode some historical lectures of Moon. This time he is back to talk about the recent assassination of the former Japanese prime minister, Shinzo Abe, and the role that the Unification church played in that event. Heavy stuff but it felt like an important topic to discuss given Elgen's expertise, Chris' location, and the theme of the podcast.But that's not all!Also in this episode, you get a slightly out-of-date update on Alex Jone's trial (which will be good preparation for a forthcoming interview with Knowledge Fight's Dan Friesen) and a mini-decoding of Lex Fridman and Joe Rogan's recent conversation. Consider this a coda to the techno monk episode, that perhaps gives a glimpse into the more sinister side of that somewhat endearing naivety. The next decoding episode we are back with the sensemakers and it's one you won't want to miss! LinksFalling Out PodcastElgen's YouTube video on the Unification Church & human traffickingElgen's YouTube video discussing the motivations of Testuya YamagamiJoe Rogan: Comedy, Controversy, Aliens, UFOs, Putin, CIA, and Freedom | Lex Fridman Podcast #300Our previous episode interviewing Elgen on DTGOur decoding episode with Elgen looking at Reverend Moon's speechesAlex Jone's trial highlightKnowledge Fight's post-trial review episode (712) with the parents' trial lawyers

As per Section 7, paragraph 3, item 2 in the Gurometer Constitution and User Manual states, "All covered gurus shall have a Right to Reply" and Robert Wright has taken us up on this invitation!Now, this provision is generally intended to allow the poor dears we cover a rejoinder to all the insults, smears, and canards we routinely employ in our 'take-downs'. But our coverage of Bob was almost entirely positive. As Bob says in this episode, "You liked me, you really liked me!". So, this was actually more of an excuse to catch up and tie off a few bows. Bob clarifies a few points on the more speculative frontiers of his worldview, and exactly what he means when he talks about potential teleologies in evolution.But the warm fuzzies and mutual back-patting in this interview quickly devolve into yet another bitter intra-podcast internecine feud about consciousness and whether it's 'spooky' or not. Matt accuses Chris of being a p-zombie, which he's done before, but since it's an ad-hominem par excellence, we can all agree it deserves more than one shake of the sauce bottle. Bob does his best to walk (Chris) Matt back from the precipice of madness but to no avail. Although we might possibly have failed, once again, to solve the ultimate mystery of the human condition, at least a good waffley time was had by all.In the original episode, we made only passing reference to our disagreements with Bob over international relations, and Syria in particular. The Russian invasion of Ukraine has happened in the interim, and this has been a big focus of Bob's output since then. So, we have at-it a bit on that, on the benefits and limits of deploying cognitive empathy, and we touch on Grayzone and Bellingcat and who's dis-informing whom.It's no secret we earnestly disagree with Bob on geopolitics. But it's most definitely one of those topics where decent people can disagree. Since he's a frood who Really Knows Where His Towel is, we always appreciate the chance to talk to him. And who knows, one day Matt and Chris might even be wrong about something!? If so, I'm sure the subreddit will let us know.Enjoy!LinksThe original DTG decoding episode on Robert WrightBob's interview with us on his channelOur interview with Bob on DTGThe Monocle 24 piece on the 'evolution' of PutinBellingcat's articles on the Douma chemical weapons issueBob's Non-Zero SubstackYour Gurometer Ratings!If you want to play along you can add your own scores for Jordan or any of our previous gurus here:Rate the Gurus websiteAnd if you want to check the collected results:Gurometer Results

Matt and Chris are back in the headspace of the Alchemical Lemon, Jordan Peterson, with what was supposed to be a shorter format decoding episode. You can judge for yourself how well that worked out!Nevertheless, this is still a 'recoding' episode of a previously decoded guru. For those interested, Jordan was covered way back in Episode 3 and jointly with Bret Weinstein in Episode 18. It seemed about time to dip back into the ineffable well of the undisputed master of metaphors given that he seems to have revived his old Agenda Insight persona (minus the Fedora).This time we find Jordan in a foul mood delivering some stern advice to the Christian Churches on how to attract and recruit young men. He's been on a bit of a roll recently (since joining the Daily Wire) and thus far has delivered unsolicited 'messages' to Christians, Muslims, and CEOs. The mind boggles at how much advice he will have provided and to how many groups before the year is out!So join the decoders for a (theoretically) condensed decoding of a paradigmatic modern guru on the rampage. Think we are kidding? Think again sunshine. Listen... NOW! Do it, before it is too late.LinksPeterson's Message to Christian ChurchesOur original episodes on Peterson: Episode 3 & Episode 18Take down of Peterson's apologetic video on the war in Ukraine by Ukrainian Toronto TelevisionAn ex-fan's perspective on Jordan's trajectory from Rebel WisdomLex Fridman with Tim Kennedy in Ukraine (Instagram)Glenn Greenwald promoting Alex's War' DocumentaryYour Gurometer Ratings!If you want to play along you can add your own scores for Jordan or any of our previous gurus here:Rate the Gurus websiteAnd if you want to check the collected results:Gurometer Results