We're Not Marketers

Making your mark as a founding PMM is very difficult, especially when the role itself has an identity crisis.That’s why we’ve asked three product marketers from our audience to join us to talk about their experience, and how to prove themselves valuable (especially when everything wants you to fail)This week, we’re inviting Shoshana Kordova, Aphrodite Brinsmead, and Elliott Rayner to discuss the multifaceted role of product marketingIn this special episode, we’re covering:The significance of clear messagingAI's potential for PMMsThe inherent identity crisis within our fieldStrategies for establishing effective product marketingThe necessity of a 30-60-90 day plan. This episode was made special because we’ve asked our listeners to join us and they accepted, so please, give us feedback and send us messages! We read everything 👀 (except if it’s outbound requests, then Eric will ban you immediately)Timestamps:01:39 Introducing the Guests05:01 Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers?07:34 AI in Product Marketing18:56 The Identity Crisis of Product Marketing23:14 Rebranding Product Marketing: A Controversial Move23:45 The Role of Founders in Early Product Marketing24:36 The Importance of Product Marketing in Today's Market26:18 Explaining Product Marketing Through Its Absence27:06 Challenges of Being a Founding Product Marketing Manager32:50 The 30-60-90 Day Plan Debate38:00 Selling the Value of Product Marketing46:02 Final Thoughts and Where to Find MoreShow Notes:Elliott LinkedInAphrodite LinkedInShoshana LinkedIn Hosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Episode Description:In this episode of We're Not Marketers, we’re diving deep with Rob Kaminski, one-half of the dynamic duo behind Fletch PMM. Rob’s journey is a masterclass in transitioning from a generalist’s toolkit to a hyper-focused niche, unlocking unparalleled expertise along the way.Together, we explore the unconventional path that led Rob and his co-founder Anthony Pierri to redefine positioning and messaging for early-stage SaaS companies, focusing on the all-important homepage.What you’ll learn:How to start building a market map and niche down effectively.Why being “too broad” can sabotage your positioning (and how to avoid it).The surprising power of debating with a partner to spark innovation.Why specificity is the ultimate superpower in product marketing.A behind-the-scenes look at Fletch’s process of refining their service and attracting their first 25 clients.And, hear Rob’s take on ‘how to position a platform’, specifically the same Q we asked April Dunford last month. Who’s answer will you like more: Rob’s or April’s? Whether you’re a product marketer looking to sharpen your craft, an aspiring fractional PMM, or just curious about what it takes to truly differentiate yourself in a crowded market, this episode is packed with insights, inspiration, and actionable advice.Tune in to hear Rob’s honest, no-holds-barred take on finding your focus and making it count.Show Notes 01:34 Introducing the Special Guest: Rob Kaminski02:32 Rob Kaminski's Career Journey04:36 The Role of Product Marketers06:25 Challenges in Product Marketing07:50 Importance of Execution in Strategy10:41 Navigating Internal Influence13:46 The Value of External Perspectives17:58 Building a Fractional Service19:57 Experimentation and Iteration24:14 Starting and Scaling a Fractional Business34:49 Cold Outreach and Building Expertise35:47 The Power of Niching Down37:51 Partnership Dynamics and Decision Making41:57 Creating Forcing Functions and Urgency43:51 The Importance of Specialization50:56 Positioning and Messaging Strategies59:42 Closing Thoughts and FarewellsHow to connect with RobRob Kaminski LinkedIn Profile FletchPMM websiteHosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Ever felt like a misfit in product marketing? You’re not alone.In this episode of We’re Not Marketers, hosts Gab, Zach, and Eric dive deep into a hot topic for PMMs: discovering and honing your unique superpower to stand out in your role. Whether you're a product marketing veteran or new to the field, this conversation is packed with timeless advice, relatable stories, and strategies to help you identify your strengths and position yourself effectively.What’s Inside This Episode?Self-discovery exercises for PMMs: From creating a “win list” to identifying transferable skills.Positioning yourself for success: Why knowing your competitive strength is key for landing the right roles.Experimentation is key: How trying different PMM functions (like pricing or messaging) can reveal your passions.Practical tools: Use energy-mapping techniques to uncover the tasks that fuel your motivation and career growth.Standing out in the crowd: Why specializing in a niche or showcasing your work is a game-changer.Confidence and mindset: The power of affirmations and self-belief in defining and owning your PMM identity.Who’s This Episode For?Startup PMMs and fractional product marketers in B2B SaaS who’re looking to differentiate themselves and feel unignorable in their roles.Key Takeaway:Your superpower isn’t just a skill—it’s how you position yourself and align your passions with business needs. Stop blending in and start standing out by owning your unique value.Show Notes00:00 Introduction and Welcome01:01 Casual Banter and Golf Talk01:49 Understanding Your PMM Role02:26 Personal Experiences in Product Marketing03:33 Finding Your Competitive Strength04:48 Exploring Different Aspects of PMM06:57 Overcoming Imposter Syndrome07:51 Leveraging Your Superpower09:34 Practical Advice for PMMs14:29 The Importance of Confidence23:24 Final Thoughts and ConclusionSponsorZach Messler with Clarityrules.comHosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

In this next episode of We're Not Marketers, hosts Zach, Gab, and Eric are joined by Rahim Kaba, Director and Research Analyst at Gartner, to dive into the evolving role of PMM in B2B SaaS. With over 20 years of experience in the field, Rahim shares data with perspective on the function and challenges that come with it today. Key highlights include:- The Core Identity of Product Marketers: Rahim argues that product marketers are unequivocally marketers, backed by data showing 81% of PMMs report directly to marketing teams.- Shifting Expectations and Responsibilities: Learn about the changing scope of product marketing, from content creation roles to strategic leaders in positioning and storytelling.- Strategic Insights on Launch Cadences: Rahim discusses the importance of aligning release cycles with customer adoption capabilities and how to avoid launch fatigue.- Must-Have PMM Skills: Emphasis on the significance of data literacy, with tips on upskilling and resources like the Data Literacy Project.- Build Internal Influence: Best practices to clarify PMM roles through charters and RACI models to strengthen cross-functional alignment.The conversation also touches on the growth of fractional product marketers, the implications of market trends, and advice on how PMMs can elevate their strategic influence internally.Whether you're a seasoned product marketer or just starting out, this episode is packed with practical tips, valuable research insights (umm Gartner, bro), and a clear roadmap to reinforce PMM’s impact in any company. Tune in for a ‘deep-sea of research’ dive of how PMMs can thrive in today's competitive landscape.Time Stamps 02:11 Rahim's Background and Role at Gartner03:15 Are Product Marketers Really Marketers?07:06 Challenges and Misunderstandings in Product Marketing09:51 The Evolution of Product Marketing14:56 Data Literacy in Product Marketing18:12 Impact of Layoffs on Product Marketing21:04 Rise of Fractional Product Marketers23:46 Specialization in Product Marketing25:28 The Appeal of Fractional Product Marketing27:06 Challenges and Strategies for PMMs28:49 Effective Product Launch Strategies33:22 Balancing Product and Marketing Priorities34:44 The Role of PMMs in Organizations38:06 Building a Product Marketing Charter44:16 Using Gartner InsightsWhere more to follow and connect with Rahim?Rahim Kaba LinkedIn Gartner Time to Value PodcastGartner for High Tech LinkedIn PageFree Gartner Webinar Recording: How Growth Organizations Source Critical PMM SkillsHosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

The role of the PMM is evolving and requires us to always adapt and be knowledgeable on new tech and initiatives. It can make a difference between a product marketer who is valuable and stack influence vs. someone who’s on the layoff list.Someone who keeps pushing the limit of practical product marketing and leveraging projects short-cuts to ship more is Jess Petrella, Senior Product Marketing Manager (PMM) at ZayZoon, and she has an amazing take on becoming an efficient PMM.We discussed how AI can enhance the PMMs' capacity to analyze data and analyze opportunities, the importance of proximity with product teams, and the skills necessary for PMMs to co-create product roadmaps. The episode provides practical advice for aspiring PMMs and reflects on how to navigate better the challenges of the profession, from someone who just built the function from scratch. We talk about:Use AI for quicker data synthesis and opportunity analysisBuild advocacy skills to align with other teamsStrengthen connections with product teamsCollaborate on roadmaps to grow your roleGain skills to impact product decisionsSimplify tasks with AI to increase outputDiscover how you can build more influence as a PMM with the help of AI! Timespan:01:04 Discussing Product Marketing and Launches02:16 Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers?03:15 The Evolution of Product Marketing05:21 Building Influence as a Product Marketer17:43 Leveraging AI in Product Marketing28:53 Conclusion and FarewellShow Notes:Jess LinkedInhttps://pmmops.com/Hosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

The worst thing about being a PMM is not having to launch a new product within 2 weeks, or drowning in sales decks. It’s all sharing the same trauma that people don’t understand product marketing. We’ve seen a lot of movement on LinkedIn about PMMs sharing horror stories. Michele Nieberding even did a talk about it at PMA Boston.And we were lucky enough to have her sharing them on the pod, just in time for Halloween 💀 our FAVORITE HOLIDAY 🎃Michele, the director of product marketing at MetaRouter, spent almost a decade in product marketing and loves Halloween, we’re talking about:Combining new brands, products and segmentsFreemium to ScreemiumFailed launches and disastrous rebrandsProduct enforcement gone wrongA bunch of jokes and fun thingsStart feeling better about your role and discover horror stories for PMMs that would scare even ghouls and ghosts!Timespan:00:00 Introduction and Sponsorship01:02 Meet the Hosts01:28 Special Guest Introduction03:20 PMM Horror Stories: Introduction06:42 Horror Story 1: The Freemium Nightmare14:01 Horror Story 2: Enforcing Usage Limits19:30 The Sleep Sack Nightmare21:10 Customer Perspective on Luxury Baby Products22:03 Manufacturing and Packaging Woes24:26 A College Business Competition Fiasco25:54 The Real Estate App Pricing Disaster30:44 The Rebranding and Product Launch Debacle37:29 Closing Thoughts and FarewellShow Notes:Michele’s LinkedInHosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

For PMMs, it can be difficult to have a good relationship with sales, especially in new roles. Win-loss analysis and interviews can be a good win when you see that close-lost column piling up on the CRM pipeline.But how can you take another responsibility on your to-do when you’re already swamped?Matthew Reeves, CEO and co-founder of GoldPan, runs a win-loss analysis agency. In this episode, he’s showing us:How to build rapport with sales teamsThe complexities of positioning and messagingWhy you need both wins and losses for good research. Why information overload kill sales. The nuanced value of churn analysis. Hear also the very unique take of Matthew on if product marketers are marketers, we can’t say we heard this one yet!Timespan:00:00 Welcome to We're Not Marketers00:19 Introducing Matthew Reeves, CEO of GoldPan01:37 Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers?02:49 The Evolution and Challenges of Marketing12:21 The Importance of Win-Loss Analysis21:31 Building Rapport Between Product Marketers and Sales34:25 Sales Missteps and Buyer Uncertainty34:59 Understanding Product Assessment35:34 The Role of Risk and Values in Buying Decisions37:01 Challenges in Product Marketing37:48 The Importance of Win-Loss Analysis38:39 Switching Costs and Product Marketing40:34 Effective Sales Messaging43:14 The Buyer-Seller Dynamic50:06 The Value of Churn Analysis54:29 Bad Sales Experiences01:01:33 Closing Thoughts and Future PlansShow Notes:Matthew’s LinkedInGoldpan websiteHosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Get ready for some real talk about positioning! In this episode, we sit down with the queen of positioning herself, April Dunford. If your startup’s positioning feels a little “mushy” or your product is getting compared to everyone under the sun, this episode is for you. April shares her no-nonsense approach to tightening up your message and teaching your CEO why positioning isn’t just some abstract marketing concept—it’s the foundation of your success. Whether you’re battling internal buy-in or figuring out how to stand out in a crowded market, April’s got the answers (plus a few hilarious takes on toilets and camping). Here’s what you’re missing, by not listening:Is your product positioning “mushy”? Learn why vague messaging is killing your pitch—and how to fix it.The secret weapon for startups: April’s advice on involving sales and product teams in positioning.Why “actionable insights” aren’t really actionable: How to cut the jargon and speak your customer's language.CEO thinks their product positioning is fine? April’s roadmap to making them see the problem—without calling their baby ugly.Positioning vs. features: Why selling value over features is your ultimate key to success.Show Notes00:00 Introduction and Sponsor Message01:05 Meet the Hosts and Guest Introduction01:39 April Dunford on Product Marketing03:25 The Role of Positioning in Startups09:17 Building Influence as a Product Marketer23:27 Fun and Games with April Dunford34:26 Discovering Catan: A Board Game Revelation35:00 Building Dreams: Choosing the Perfect Cottage Location36:10 Torture Chamber Round: Birds or Stars?38:42 The Cardinal Sins of Product Positioning43:33 Selling Platforms: Value Over Features01:00:17 The Art of Persuasive Writing in Marketing01:04:52 Career Advice for Product Marketers01:11:01 Engage with April Dunford: Books, Podcasts, and MoreResourcesApril Dunford LinkedInApril Dunford websiteApril Dunford’s Positioning Podcast Hosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Dealing with the chaos of being a PMM while trying to balance the rest of your life? You’re not alone.In this candid episode of We're Not Marketers, Zach, Eric, and Gab dive into the realities of managing life as a Product Marketing Manager, whether you're in-house or fractional. From overwhelming work expectations to the struggle of balancing personal life, the team discusses how to protect your mental health while handling an always-on work culture. They share personal stories, tips like setting boundaries, removing work apps from phones, and practical advice on how to deal with burnout. If you're feeling the strain of managing your career, relationships, and self-care, this episode is a must-listen.Key takeaways include:Strategies to create separation between work and personal time (e.g., daily rituals, setting boundaries, Slack detox).Real-talk about burnout and why mental health shouldn’t be just a “corporate benefit.”Practical tips on saying “no” to unrealistic requests and protecting your productivity.How fractional PMMs handle the pressure of multiple clients while in-house PMMs navigate endless internal demands.Tune in to hear the team's perspectives on how to reclaim balance and stay sane as a PMM.Show Notes00:00 Introduction and Sponsor Message01:02 The Challenges of Being a Product Marketer02:22 In-House vs. Fractional Product Marketing04:45 Balancing Work and Personal Life07:41 Setting Boundaries and Mental Health22:02 Productivity Tips and Techniques30:50 Conclusion and Final ThoughtsHosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

In this episode of We're Not Marketers, we sit down with the one and only Jeff Chase, Director of Brand and Product Marketing at Vitally.io, who drops a major hot take—product marketers aren’t marketers (wait, what?!). But Jeff doesn’t stop there. He believes PMMs are the future leaders of marketing, and he’s got the experience and insights to back it up.Tune in as we dive into the evolving role of product marketers in B2B SaaS. From positioning and messaging to why PMMs have the potential to become CMOs, Jeff shares his journey and unique approach to blending product and brand marketing. We also tackle the age-old question: how can PMMs build better relationships with their brand teams?Whether you're a PMM ready to shake up your organization or just curious about where this role is headed, this convo is one you don’t want to miss:PMMs vs. Marketers: Jeff’s surprising take on why product marketers aren’t really marketers.The Future CMO Pipeline: Why Jeff believes product marketers are primed to become the next generation of marketing leaders.The Art of Brand Storytelling: How product marketers can elevate their influence by mastering brand marketing collaboration.Hiring Hacks: Jeff’s refreshing approach to recruitment, and why he believes hiring managers have a deeper responsibility than you think.Copycats Beware: How to stay a step ahead of competitors who love to swipe your messaging.Time Stamps 00:00 Introduction and Host Intros00:56 Special Guest Introduction: Jeff02:02 Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers?04:35 The Future of Product Marketing08:55 Building Cross-Functional Relationships10:48 The Role of Brand Marketing14:30 Hiring and Leadership Insights36:21 Dealing with Competitors43:46 Conclusion and Sign-OffShow NotesJeff Chase LinkedIn ProfileHosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.