We're Not Marketers

In this engaging conversation, Michele Nieberding, Director of Product Marketing at Metarouter and two-time Top 100 PMM, returns to challenge common misconceptions about product marketers. She discusses how AI is revolutionizing the role, shares tactical insights on collaborating with sales, and explains the importance of disqualifying bad leads. Michele also dives into the launch hamster wheel that traps PMMs and the rise of the VP of Product Marketing, all while mixing in humorous analogies about dating mishaps. Get ready for essential PMM trends for 2024!

Product marketers with a sales background often feel like they have a superpower. The opposite is even truer.Kyle Coleman, CMO at Copy.ai, says yes—and he’s got the career journey to back it up. From SDR to marketing exec, Kyle breaks down why sales and marketing are inseparable, how storytelling (not the best product) wins markets, and why staying close to revenue is the key to career growth. Plus, he shares how he personally closed $350K in outbound sales while leading marketing.✅ Why storytelling—not features—wins markets (just ask Salesforce).✅ The biggest mistake most product marketers make when trying to prove their impact.✅ Sales and marketing: two sides of the same coin or completely different beasts?✅ Why the best PMMs own the revenue conversation.✅ The "ivory tower" trap that kills product marketing impact.✅ Kyle’s secret to getting buy-in from execs for category creation (hint: 75+ interviews).✅ A real-life sales deck fail—and how Kyle fixed it by actually selling.✅ The #1 piece of career advice for product marketers who want to be CMOs.If you're a product marketer aiming for the CMO seat, this episode is your playbook. 🔥Timespan:00:00 Introduction to the Podcast00:16 Meet the Hosts00:56 Introducing the Guest: Kyle Coleman01:53 Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers?04:18 Sales and Marketing: A Unified Perspective05:40 Kyle's Journey from SDR to CMO07:42 The Importance of Staying Close to Revenue12:10 Internal Buy-In and Category Definition15:11 Advice for Aspiring CMOs19:12 Using AI in Marketing Strategy21:28 AI in Sales Enablement22:40 Impact Over Quantity23:57 Real-World Example: Transitioning to Enterprise25:49 Hiring the Right Product Marketer30:29 Marketing as a Leadership Function34:51 Advice for Product Marketing Candidates39:06 Kyle's Side Projects and Copy AI41:45 Final Thoughts and Career Growth TipsShow Notes:Kyle's LinkedIn ProfileCopy.aiChristopher Lochhead’s "Position Yourself or Be Positioned"Hosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

We’re kicking off season 4 with Chanel Chambers, VP of Marketing at Lakeside Software. As a product marketing leader and past music teacher, she’s joining us to break down the role of product marketing, why it's central to a business’s success, and how PMMs can increase their influence. From jazz improvisation to AI-driven business strategies, Chanel shares fresh insights on how product marketers can start treating their role with a business holistic approach and how to create credibility internally AND externally. We’re talked about:🔹 Why product marketers sit at the center of the entire marketing mix🔹 How PMMs can transition from order takers to strategic influencers🔹 The “Land, Expand, Retain” framework every PMM needs to master🔹 What jazz musicians and product marketers have in common🔹 How to build credibility and navigate internal conflicts with confidence🔹 Why business fluency is the key to PMM influence (hint: know your numbers!)🔹 The difference between activities vs. outcomes—and why PMMs should focus on the latter🔹 Why AI isn’t changing what businesses need, just how they get there🔹 The biggest mistake PMMs make when presenting ICP and personasListen now to get a fresh perspective on how to elevate your role and make a real impact as a PMM! 🎧Timespan:00:00 Introduction and Host Introductions00:55 Special Guest Introduction: Chanel Chambers02:36 Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers?03:33 The Role of Product Marketing in Business09:52 Frameworks and Problem-Solving in Product Marketing16:03 Outcome-Based Metrics vs. Activity-Based Metrics18:37 Navigating Organizational Goals and Stakeholders23:04 Understanding the Role of Personas24:24 The Importance of Insights Over Reports25:50 Practicing Influence as a PMM26:33 Curiosity and Ambiguity in PMM34:38 Navigating Internal Conflicts39:47 Final Thoughts and FarewellShow Notes:Chanel LinkedInHosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

In this special recap, we dive into what it really means to be a product marketer in the ever-evolving B2B SaaS space—from defining the role to gaining the trust of executives and product teams. Hear first-hand advice on establishing boundaries, shaping product roadmaps, and showcasing your unique value. Tune in to discover how you can go from feeling misunderstood to being the unignorable voice in your organization.Why product marketing often feels misunderstood—and how to change that.The “secret sauce” to defining your role so everyone, from sales to CEOs, sees your impact.Strategies for sitting in a “neutral” spot on the org chart (and why it’s a dream setup).Insider tips for positioning your product before it’s built—so buyers are ready to say “yes.”How to set healthy boundaries with tasks that aren’t in your zone of genius.This episode is featuring episodes clips from Tamara Grominsky, Dave Gerhardt, and April Dunford.Give it a listen prior to season 4 launching in 2 weeks! Hosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Product marketing and content marketing—are they allies, or just frenemies in disguise? In this episode, Devin Reed (ex-Gong, ex-Clari, and host of Read Between the Lines) joins the crew to dish out his hot takes on the tension between PMMs and content marketers, why most messaging decks collect dust, and the real secret to making content that resonates. If you’ve ever questioned whether product marketing is actually marketing (or just internal storytelling), this one’s for you.What You’ll Learn in This Episode:→ The biggest mistake product marketers make when handing messaging to content teams→ Why most positioning and messaging decks never make it into real-world content→ The secret to testing messaging before betting big on a full campaign→ How to bridge the gap between internal messaging and market-facing storytelling→ The power of creative freedom—why it’s the ultimate flex in B2B marketing→ The “two-sentence test” for making sure your messaging actually lands→ When it’s too candid—how to balance bold positioning with market perception→ How to write messaging that actually reflects what customers sayListen now to hear Devin unfiltered take on product marketing, messaging mistakes, and how to win the content game.Timestamps:00:00 Introduction and Host Welcome02:00 Introducing the Special Guest: Devin Reed04:13 Devin Reed's Insights on Product Marketing06:00 The Relationship Between Content and Product Marketing14:51 Testing and Differentiating Marketing Strategies23:57 Creative Freedom in B2B Marketing26:23 Writing for Yourself: A Sales Rep's Perspective26:57 Creating Relatable and Memorable Content28:12 The Power of Sales Team Collaboration28:55 The Heat Check: Testing Content Ideas29:35 Maniacal Focus on Quality Content29:59 The Importance of Clear and Concise Messaging31:40 Understanding Your Audience's Language34:37 Navigating Internal Approval Processes36:32 Leveraging Customer Insights for Copywriting43:14 The Creative Process: From Inspiration to Execution48:34 Final Thoughts and Upcoming ProjectsShow Notes:The Reeder WebsiteReed between the lines podcastDevin’s LinkedIn Hosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Ever wondered how a band of misfits turned shared frustrations into a thriving podcast? In this episode, we’re sharing our origin story, revealing how they met, bonded over common pain points in the product marketing world, and turned candid conversations into a platform that challenges industry norms. Packed with spicy takes, behind-the-scenes laughs, and actionable advice, this episode is a testament to the power of finding your people and staying true to your vision. How PMM frustrations sparked the idea for the We're Not Marketers podcast.How we’ve turned banter and venting sessions into a thriving community.The secret to developing a contrarian yet authentic point of view.Why we stand out in a crowded product marketing landscape.Message testing and building a relatable brand voice.Tune in to discover why authenticity, fun, and a unique point of view are the ultimate game-changers.Timestamps:00:00 Introduction and Episode Context01:32 Meet the Hosts01:59 How We Met and Formed the Podcast02:34 The Organic Evolution of the Show04:13 Challenges and Dynamics of Product Marketing06:52 Developing a Unique Point of View09:46 Contrarian Perspectives and Testing Ideas12:57 The Role and Identity of Product Marketers21:11 Positioning and Future of Product Marketing24:23 Tattoos in the Workplace: A Changing Perspective25:09 Belief in Our Mission: Every Day Commitment26:08 Navigating Skepticism and Valuing Disagreement26:51 Embracing Learning and Marketing Communities30:04 The Freedom of Creative Expression35:03 The Importance of Fun in Work40:40 Stoic Wisdom and Final ThoughtsShow Notes:Navattic - State of the Interactive Demo 2025Hosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Are you ready to take the leap into fractional work?In this episode of We're Not Marketers, Gab, Zach, and Eric dive into the realities, challenges, and triumphs of betting on yourself as a fractional Product Marketing Manager (PMM). They explore:The mindset shifts required to succeed in a fractional career.Lessons learned from building your niche and refining your offer.How confidence, community, and obsession fuel success.Why intentional trade-offs and clear goals are the foundation for thriving as a solopreneur.From navigating imposter syndrome to celebrating small wins, this conversation is packed with practical tips and inspiring insights to help you find your footing and take control of your career.Whether you're a PMM considering the fractional path or a solopreneur looking to sharpen your approach, this episode offers the advice and encouragement you need to bet on yourself and thrive.🎧 Tune in now and discover why "no one is coming to save you"—and how that's the best news yet.Show Notes00:00 Introduction and Welcome00:27 Betting on Yourself: The Fractional Route01:15 Personal Experiences and Challenges02:42 Unlearning In-House Habits04:29 The Importance of Confidence and Mindset09:36 Sales and Client Management17:35 Intentional Trade-Offs and Financial Stability30:40 Evolving Your Process and Building Confidence31:34 Navigating Isolation and Finding Support33:24 Balancing Work and Personal Life34:43 Reframing Challenges and Embracing Growth39:05 The Power of Community and Shared Experiences43:48 Crafting Your Unique Offer and Building Foundations47:42 Obsession and Dedication: The Path to Success51:50 Final Thoughts and ReflectionsHosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

The more knowledge you have on product marketing, the better you can be an expert and have more impact on your job. Today, we’re having Peter Kortvel, a senior product marketer at Scandit and the creator of the product marketing newsletter (with 1700+ subscribers).Peter has worked as a video consultant, in startups, cofounded an IoT startup and today shows us what great product marketing should look like.He has 13+ years of experience as a marketer and believes in getting things done (we appreciate it too!). In this episode, we’re covering:The importance of understanding your target audienceWhy research can help you communicate your product valueThe difference between storytelling and the formatChallenges of PMMs and if they are marketersCommon startup mistakes in messagingThe best time to drink beerSo grab a beer with us and let’s chat product marketing 🫡Timespan:00:00 Welcome to We're Not Marketers00:55 Meet Our Guest: Peter Kortvel01:55 Diving into Product Marketing09:27 The Role of Research in Marketing14:19 Challenges in Startup Marketing23:49 The Role of Storytelling in Video Content24:38 Challenges of Storytelling in B2B Marketing26:08 Understanding the Audience's Problem28:18 The Importance of Clear Communication31:38 Creating Aha Moments in Marketing36:25 The Concept of Visual Cold Calling46:24 Conclusion and Final ThoughtsShow Notes:Peter’s LinkedInProduct Marketing NewsletterHosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Making your mark as a founding PMM is very difficult, especially when the role itself has an identity crisis.That’s why we’ve asked three product marketers from our audience to join us to talk about their experience, and how to prove themselves valuable (especially when everything wants you to fail)This week, we’re inviting Shoshana Kordova, Aphrodite Brinsmead, and Elliott Rayner to discuss the multifaceted role of product marketingIn this special episode, we’re covering:The significance of clear messagingAI's potential for PMMsThe inherent identity crisis within our fieldStrategies for establishing effective product marketingThe necessity of a 30-60-90 day plan. This episode was made special because we’ve asked our listeners to join us and they accepted, so please, give us feedback and send us messages! We read everything 👀 (except if it’s outbound requests, then Eric will ban you immediately)Timestamps:01:39 Introducing the Guests05:01 Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers?07:34 AI in Product Marketing18:56 The Identity Crisis of Product Marketing23:14 Rebranding Product Marketing: A Controversial Move23:45 The Role of Founders in Early Product Marketing24:36 The Importance of Product Marketing in Today's Market26:18 Explaining Product Marketing Through Its Absence27:06 Challenges of Being a Founding Product Marketing Manager32:50 The 30-60-90 Day Plan Debate38:00 Selling the Value of Product Marketing46:02 Final Thoughts and Where to Find MoreShow Notes:Elliott LinkedInAphrodite LinkedInShoshana LinkedIn Hosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Episode Description:In this episode of We're Not Marketers, we’re diving deep with Rob Kaminski, one-half of the dynamic duo behind Fletch PMM. Rob’s journey is a masterclass in transitioning from a generalist’s toolkit to a hyper-focused niche, unlocking unparalleled expertise along the way.Together, we explore the unconventional path that led Rob and his co-founder Anthony Pierri to redefine positioning and messaging for early-stage SaaS companies, focusing on the all-important homepage.What you’ll learn:How to start building a market map and niche down effectively.Why being “too broad” can sabotage your positioning (and how to avoid it).The surprising power of debating with a partner to spark innovation.Why specificity is the ultimate superpower in product marketing.A behind-the-scenes look at Fletch’s process of refining their service and attracting their first 25 clients.And, hear Rob’s take on ‘how to position a platform’, specifically the same Q we asked April Dunford last month. Who’s answer will you like more: Rob’s or April’s? Whether you’re a product marketer looking to sharpen your craft, an aspiring fractional PMM, or just curious about what it takes to truly differentiate yourself in a crowded market, this episode is packed with insights, inspiration, and actionable advice.Tune in to hear Rob’s honest, no-holds-barred take on finding your focus and making it count.Show Notes 01:34 Introducing the Special Guest: Rob Kaminski02:32 Rob Kaminski's Career Journey04:36 The Role of Product Marketers06:25 Challenges in Product Marketing07:50 Importance of Execution in Strategy10:41 Navigating Internal Influence13:46 The Value of External Perspectives17:58 Building a Fractional Service19:57 Experimentation and Iteration24:14 Starting and Scaling a Fractional Business34:49 Cold Outreach and Building Expertise35:47 The Power of Niching Down37:51 Partnership Dynamics and Decision Making41:57 Creating Forcing Functions and Urgency43:51 The Importance of Specialization50:56 Positioning and Messaging Strategies59:42 Closing Thoughts and FarewellsHow to connect with RobRob Kaminski LinkedIn Profile FletchPMM websiteHosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.