The Copywriter Club Podcast

Dayana Mayfield joins The Copywriter Club podcast for the 248th episode. Dayana is a SaaS copywriter who focuses on SEO and conversions. After deciding to pursue writing as a career to inspire her daughter to follow her passions, she found copywriting. If you want to learn how to grow your business through networking and online platforms, this episode is for you. Here’s what we talk about: How copywriting and editing are completely different skill sets. Becoming the sole provider in a foreign country. What it takes to learn SEO copywriting and what the difference is. The pros of Upwork and going from $16 hr to $175 hr in 2 years. What you should do when you don’t have a copywriting portfolio. The better way to cold pitch and land new clients. How Dayana was able to save for 4 months of maternity leave in 1 year. Why you shouldn’t lower your standards when you need money fast. The future of copywriting. Is it still worth it? The benefits of verifying who you could potentially be working with. Misconceptions of the SaaS industry and why it could be the right niche for you. The proper way to vet your prospects. Why SEO is important and could keep your lead list hot and ready. Navigating manic bipolar disorder and having a successful business. How PR and SEO go hand in hand and why you need both in your business. Being multi-passionate and starting a second business. The difference between a vertical and horizontal niche. How you can find leads via podcasts and backlinks. What actually happens when you begin to niche down and position yourself as the expert. Whether you’re reading the transcript or listening in, you won’t want to miss this episode. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Think Tank Tiffany’s website Dayana’s website Full Transcript: Rob: There's more than one approach to choosing a niche, and the most common of course is choosing an industry to specialize in, but there are other approaches too like choosing a particular deliverable or a kind of project that you work on. That's generally called horizontal niching. We've even seen copywriters niche by the customer that they work with. Our guest for this episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast is Dayana Mayfield, and she told us about how she's adding a second horizontal niche to her business. We're going to let her tell you all about it in just a minute, but first I want to introduce my guest host for this episode. That's Tiffany Ingle. Hey, Tiffany. Tiffany: Hi, Rob. Rob: How's it going? Tiffany: It's going pretty well. Thank you for having me here. I'm really happy to sit down and have this conversation with you today. Rob: Yeah, this is awesome. So Tiffany is a conversion copywriter. She's worked in the nonprofit sector I think for like seven years before starting her own business. She writes conversion copy and she has a newsletter called Authenticity is Addictive. If you want to be on that or receive that, go to Tiffany's website and sign up. Before we talk with Dayana, this episode is brought to you by The Copywriter Think Tank. That's our mastermind for copywriters and other marketers who want to do more in their business and their work. Maybe you have dreamed about creating a product or a podcast, or maybe you've thought about maybe starting an agency or a product company. Maybe you want to become the best-known copywriter in your niche, the person that high paying clients are always looking out for. That's the kind of thing that we help copywriters do in the Think Tank. Tiffany is actually a member of the Think Tank, a new member. To learn more, visit copywriterthinktank.com, and maybe you can join this extraordinary group of business owners too. So let's jump into our interview with Dayana and find out more about her business and the clients that she works with. Kira: All right, so let's kick off with your story. How did you end up as a SaaS copywriter, conversion copywriter, PR expert, all the things? Dayana: Yeah. So about six years ago, I was a stay-at-home mom and I had had my first daughter. And now this is a controversial opinion, but I didn't want to just teach a daughter. This is what we do. We hope we marry a nice engineer that could pay all the bills. My sister-in-law gets pissed at me for saying that, but I was like, I didn't want to teach her. Like what is that teaching her? Right? It's like how is she going to have a good life if she doesn't find a good guy? So I was like, "Okay, I really got to figure this money thing out." And when I had graduated college in 2009, it was the recession. I come from a blue collar family. My dad's a motorcycle salesman. I had no understanding of like talent. Like that businesses hire talent and that talent could be creative and you could make money for being creative. So there was just no kind of understanding of the fact that you could actually make money as a writer. I think a lot of writers have that where you think it's like the starving artist thing. So I was like 26. I was trying to figure out how am I going to make money? And I want to make money as a writer. And I want to show my daughter that you can make money doing what you love and what you're good at. And so I started with editing because I was like afraid of like selling copywriting services. I kind of figured out what copywriting was because I was like, "Somebody is writing the back of this shampoo bottle. Who the heck is writing the back of this shampoo bottle? It's the coolest job ever." But I was like afraid even though I understood what copywriting was. I was like, "I'll just do editing." So I got a copy editing certification from UC San Diego and then quickly realized that I was terrible at editing. You have to be like very nitpicky. It's a completely different personality. There's a difference between knowing where a comma goes and getting something ready for actual print publication. And I got my first B of my life because I had got straight A's all through college. I got my first B in this copy editing certification. I was like, "This is not the thing." So then I was like, "All right, I'm going to do like blog writing." So I started pitching. Blog writing is a great start for a lot of copywriters. I started pitching local agencies to write blogs for their clients and then it kind of just went from there. You know how it goes. It's like you got to just start pulling in clients. So I did a lot of different things, email marketing, got into writing websites. And I was incentivized to grow my business super quickly because as a family, we decided to have my husband go back to school and get his PhD in architecture and engineering. And he has now founded a sustainable construction and engineering startup that takes kind of Roman architecture principles and is modernizing them to make structures last longer because Roman structures can last 2,000 years. Ours can't. So his startup was all about making them earthquake-safe and modern so that we have less construction waste. So solving the world's construction waste and longevity problem. So I had to go from being a stay-at-home mom to being a sole provider in just a few months. So I was hustling. Yeah. And then I picked tech as my niche kind of slowly but surely. Living in Northern California, I know... Name any big tech company, I know somebody from college who works there. And so my relationships just kind of started going in that direction of like SaaS and software. So that was very fortunate that I picked a profitable niche within just a few months of starting. Rob: I want to know more about the copy editing certificate. So I am terrible at editing myself, but what does it take to get a certificate in copy editing? What do you have to know? Or like what do you have to be able to do? Dayana: Yeah. So every UC, the UC system is like the University of California. So it's like there's Berkeley and Irvine and all the... There's like I think 11 or 12 UCs. And so they all have those like continuation, like adult kind of continuation programs. So it's not like you're like in the bachelor's program. It's like their extension. So that was the one that I did. It was like UC San Diego extension. And it was $1,600 and it was a whole year. So I was doing this for a whole year during kids' nap time. And so yeah, you had to take all four classes. It was like four classes spread over a year. And then I think as long as you got, I don't know if it was a C or a B, but as long as you got a certain grade in each class, then you got the certificate. And so it's their UCSD extension certificate. And so that definitely gave me the confidence. I still think that certificates are great. Like when I started doing SEO blogs, I got the... A lot of people know this one. It's like seocopywriting.com. Heather, she has a SEO copy certificate. I think it's a smart way to start because it gives you the confidence. And if you don't have like a portfolio or testimonials, it does give you something if you're cold pitching clients or getting started on a gig site like Upwork, which I did. A lot of people hate Upwork, but I did do pretty well on Upwork for like two years and I got my hourly rate up to like $175 before I left. I would not use it now, but it is a nice start. Like I said, I went from stay-at-home mom to sole provider in four months. So for me, Upwork was an important part of that jump. Kira: Can you talk a little bit more about Upwork? And I know you're off of it now. It's not part of your business now, but for copywriters who are on Upwork and want to grow fast and they may hear you say four months, how you grew so fast. How do I do it on Upwork?

Nicole Piper is our guest for the 247th episode of The Copywriter Club podcast. Nicole is a copywriter and direct response marketer. She started her career as a global brand development strategist working for companies such as Nickelodeon, MTV, and Pokemon. Now she focuses on writing for the health and wellness space. Here’s what we talk about: Going through a divorce and losing your 6-figure job. Falling upon copy courses and becoming energized with everything you’re consuming. When you might be ready to go all in and give it your best shot. How following your gut can open up the doors to 100’s of possibilities. Feeling unsure about your copy and it falling into the hands of Kevin Rogers. Becoming Parris Lampropoulos’ cub and gaining an incredible and surreal experience. Manifesting two clients in one week by getting out of your own way. How to get comfortable with not seeing the entire path ahead of you. The secret to the fastest growth and success. Hint: It’s not by doing it alone. What you can learn from Nickelodeon’s marketing angle. How to find the best humans in the world who are collaborative rather than competitive. When it may be the right time to hire a content strategist. The 4 P’s and how it can bring your message to life. Where most copywriters mess up when making big promises. Why you should have someone read your copy out loud to you. The better way to break into the health and wellness space. The challenge of finding the right people for the job. The truth about being an expert to your client. The difference between prevalence and intensity is the solution to finding your ideal client. Listen to the episode below or read it in the show notes. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Think Tank Piper’s website Piper’s health coaching website Grace’s website Full Transcript: Rob:  There's this idea made popular by the movie, The Secret, that you can manifest things into your life simply by thinking about them. Actually, that's a bit of a simplification of the idea of manifesting, but I think you get the idea. By focusing on things like money or say a nice home or great clients, you actually attract those kinds of things into your life. Now, we're not so sure that it's that simple. In fact, I think I'm on record as saying that it doesn't actually work that way, but we do think that when you work hard and you focus on the right things, good stuff generally happens to you and your business. Our guest for this episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast is copywriter, Nicole Piper. Nicole is a great example of this manifesting process, attracting opportunity and clients by getting to work and focusing on what she really wanted to happen in a situation where many of us would probably do the opposite. We'll let Nicole share her story in a moment. But first, before we get to that, I want to just introduce the Copywriter Think Tank that's the sponsor for this episode, and that's our mastermind for copywriters and other marketers who want to do more in their business and their work. Maybe you've dreamed of creating a product or a podcast or building an agency, or a product company, or anything else beyond just simply writing for clients, billing by the penny or by the hour. If you want to become the best known copywriter in your niche, that's the kind of thing that we do in the Copywriter Think Tank. And because Kira is still on maternity leave, my guest host for today is Grace Baldwin. Grace is a member of the Think Tank. Grace, you can share a line or two about your experience, and just tell us what you think about that. Grace:  Sure. Hi everybody. Yeah, my name is Grace Baldwin, I am a B2B SaaS copywriter currently working in-house in the company. But yeah, I'm part of the Think Tank and it's been a pretty phenomenal experience, and I'm super excited to be here. Rob:  We'll talk more about surrounding yourself with community and that kind of thing in this interview, but if you're interested in learning more about the Think Tank, go to copywriterthinktank.com, and maybe you could join this extraordinary group of business owners as well. Again, Grace, you can find Grace at heygracebaldwin.com. As she mentioned, she's an in-house copywriter and a SaaS copywriter. She's made amazing leaps forward in her business over the last couple of months, and so I'm thrilled to have you, Grace, to be my co-host for, at least the comments and the interjections here in this episode. Grace:  So happy to be here. Rob:  Okay. Let's jump into our interview with Nicole and find out more about her business, the clients she works with and her story. Nicole:  Okay. Yeah, that's actually ... It was like cosmic or divine. That's what I like to say when I look back on it, because I've been in the corporate world, as you guys know, for many years, 29 years. I'd always of dreamed of becoming a writer. I remember, every time I was just getting really sick of the whole corporate life, I would always like envision myself moving to some little village in the south of France where I would sit in a cafe and write a novel or something. I always like dreamed of that and I didn't really know about copywriting yet. I figured that would have to be like a retirement career. What happened was I was actually, this was in 2015, my husband had decided he didn't want to stay married anymore. I was the primary earner. Again, I was still working in the corporate world. It was this really, obviously very stressful time with the company new and what was going on in my life. We have a son. My husband's idea was that we would sell the house and we need to move someplace else. I was like, all right, I didn't want my son going through his parents' divorce, having to go to a new school somewhere, give up his childhood home and puberty all at the same time. I thought that was a little much. I was like, let me control the things that I can and keep those stable. I figured, crunched the numbers like, okay, I can buy my husband out of the house. That way my son could stay in the school, in his home, and at least I can keep that part stable. I had worked out like doing this big cash out refi so I could pay off my husband. This was December 29th, 2015. He signed a quick claim deed. I'd actually waived alimony and child support, and I was trying to be amicable with all of this, and he was too. I'd taken over the ownership of this house and big mortgage and all that on December 29th. December 30th, the president of company calls me into the office and lays me off. Rob:  So awful. Grace:  That's awful. Nicole:  Yeah. Because here, like I said, I waived alimony and child support, so I had nothing. I remember just sitting there thinking, all right, the panic attack is going to hit any minute now, and it didn't. The weirdest thing is, the only thing I can do is I can describe it as like I did ... It wasn't a voice that I heard, but it was a message that came across loud and clear, and that was, God's not going to let you fall off a cliff if he doesn't give you wings to fly. Now, I'm not a particularly religious person, but I got this very clear sense. And all of a sudden, I just relaxed. What I was thinking was, I don't know what's going to happen next, but it's going to be good. That's like a really key shift that happened. Because I had actually, a couple of months before bought a copywriting course and I had gotten on some kind of a mailing, and I bought the copywriting course. It was AWAI's course, and I thought, wow, this sounds great. Maybe this can be my three to five year exit strategy from the corporate world. Then here, I had the rug pulled out from underneath me. I thought, okay, let me do this, I'm going to study this copywriting thing, at the same time is find a job. I was like trying to replace a six-figure income. I would wake up 3:30 in the morning and I was just too excited to go back to sleep. I just wanted to get down on my desk and study this copywriting course. At the same time, I was going on job interviews. Every time I'm on a job interview, I'd feel really nauseous and just so not into it, and the copywriting thing just made me so excited and filled with energy. I finally decided I was just going to really pay attention to that. I said, okay, I'm going to give it two years. I'm just going to work on this copywriting thing for two years and see if I can make this work and turn it into a viable business. I'm telling you, as soon as I put that stake in the ground, stuff just started showing up for me. It was extraordinary. There's no other way to explain it. It was extraordinary. When I say stuff showing up, what I mean is like, I went to the bootcamp, AWAI's bootcamp. I'm sitting there ... I walk into the bar and I see Kevin Rogers, and I go up and I just start chatting with him. I'm like, "The real problem I have here, I took the six-figure course, and I'm doing all this training, but I really don't know if my copy's any good." And he's like, "Well, you know what, why don't you send me your copy. Send me something to look at and we have a conversation about it next week." I said, sure. Then he left and I turn around and there's Parris Lampropoulos. I knew he was a copywriter, but I didn't know the players. I basically have the same conversation with Parris. We're just chatting for a while. Then he basically says the same thing. He says, "I'd be happy to take a look at some of your copy." I'm like, all right, fine. He doesn't have any card, so I'm writing his email address on the cocktail napkin. Right. There was like a group of people around us. I thought they were trying to get to the bar. I only realized later they were trying to get to Parris. Parris leaves,

On the 246th episode of The Copywriter Club podcast, we’re joined by one of our newest Think Tank members, Hira Usama. Hira is a social media manager and content strategist. Hira began her freelance journey on Upwork writing e-books and immensely undercharging. She now takes clients’ social media platforms from ghost town to binge-worthy. Here’s what we talk about: Going from a content creator for an agency to freelance work. Writing 4 e-books in one month while being pregnant and finding The Copywriter Club. How she got hired at 17 years old and was published in a magazine. How to effectively use online social platforms to expand your reach. The benefits of outbound engagement and using hashtags to connect with the right people. Social media strategy for the person who just doesn’t have the time or energy for engagement. Starting the process of working with a new client and what it’s like to work with Kira Hug. How to create effective content pillars and even mix in aspects of your life on social media. (Is there a method to the madness?) The beauty and the struggle of the hustle game. The truth about what leads to conversions. Why we need to be social on social media. (Shocking, huh?) How Hira uses Gary Vee in her approach to natural social media strategy. Copywriters who have got a killer approach to socials and what we can learn from observing. Why you absolutely need to be using swipe files. Realizing that no one is going to be as excited about your posts are you. The challenges of working on the other side of the world as your clients. Tips on working with business owners when there may be a language barrier. Creating a community for women who don’t have the means to work a standard 9-5. The struggles of building your own brand when you’re focused on so many others. (the life of a service provider.) If you want to ramp up your social media strategy and build a stronger online presence, listen to the episode or check out the transcript below. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Think Tank Hira’s website Tamara’s website Full Transcript: Rob:  For most copywriters and content writers, writing comes pretty naturally to us, and that's the one big reason that we all seem to choose this profession in the first place. There are a few exceptions who learn copywriting as a means to do something else, but for most of us, we're pretty good writers and that's why we are writers as a profession. But it takes a lot more than the ability to write to start a successful copywriting business. To do that, you have to hustle and add the skills to help you solve problems for your clients. Today's guests on The Copywriter Club Podcast is Hira Usama. That's exactly what she did from landing her first content gig at age 17, to doing work today as a social media strategist. She's always learning and trying new things, everything from SEO to social media. In this interview, Hira shares exactly what she did to grow a successful business while working from Asia as a new parent. But before we get to that, let me introduce my guest, I guess, kind of host. Since Kira asked some of the questions, she was here when we recorded. But Kira is on maternity leave spending some time with her new baby, and my guests interjector, commenter, whatever we want to call it, is Tamara Glick. Say hi, Tamara. Tamara:  Hello, Rob. How are you? Rob:  It's good. I'm thrilled to have you joining us. Those of you who maybe are longtime listeners to the podcast know that we interviewed Tamara on episode 142. Tamara is a fashion stylist and also a content and brand stylist. She also serves her clients as a fractional CMO, helping them figure out their customer journeys and how they can improve their offers and all kinds of different things. You can find her at Tamaraglick.com, and I'm just happy to have somebody else talking about some of the stuff that we learned while we interviewed Hira. Tamara:  This was such a fascinating interview. I'm really excited to be here. Thanks for having me. Rob:  Yeah, of course. Before we hear what Hira has to say, this podcast episode is brought to you by the Copywriter Think Tank. Now, Tamara, you're actually in the Think Tank. You've worked with us in the Think Tank for a long time. We've talked about the Think Tank over and over, just promoting it, whatever. Give me your 30-second thoughts on the Think Tank. Tamara:  Oh my goodness. The Think Tank to me is such an ideal incubator for someone who has built a business that they're really excited about, and that does have legs and they're confident that it does but they're not sure what is going to happen next. You might be able to see the next step, but maybe not the staircase, and that's totally okay because you need to have people around you who can support your vision, help see things that you may not be able to see as of yet. Opportunities, potential roadblocks, new partnerships or new directions, and can support you along that journey. To me, the Think Tank is an ideal mastermind for copywriters and other marketers who want to challenge each other to create new revenue streams in their businesses, receive coaching from you and from Kira, and ultimately grow to six figures or more. Up until last year, the Think Tank was only open once a year. But now we invite a few new members every month. If you've been looking for a mastermind to help you grow, visit copywriterthinktank.com to find out more. Rob:  Tamara, like I mentioned, you worked with us in the Think Tank, and help keep things organized and moving smoothly. You know your stuff while you’re with us in Think Tank. Tamara:  Well, thank you. Rob:  Let's jump into our interview with Hira, and find out more about her approach to her business and social media. Hira:  Like any other freelancer who was told in their childhood that, "Oh my god, you write so well, you're so creative," I had this dream that I want to write my own book and stuff like that. When I was in my first year of college, I came across this job opportunity for a copywriter. I still remember that red brick wall where it was just posted like a notice, and that was my first ever gig. I was around 17 year old, and that month I ended up making around $150 and I was so proud of myself. But that was a kickoff for something so amazing for years to come. I worked with two different agencies as a copywriter and content creator for around two three years. Then I jumped off of that and focused on my studies. I was doing bachelor's in applied psychology. I did that for four years, got married, then got pregnant and realized that I need to do something with my life. This cannot go on because I'm a really creative person, I just can't sit still. I'm either writing something, reading something or watching something, and then I'm a thinker. I needed to put out my thoughts somewhere. I started by getting a few gigs on Upwork back then, and I wrote around four eBooks in one month when I was seven months pregnant, and I realized that I have to do something apart from creating really long form content. I then got a few other gigs where I wrote blog posts and all of that. Yeah, that was around the time in 2018, when I came across the Copywriter Club, and I came across you guys and saw this amazing community where everybody was appreciating each other so much, and a lot of people inside that group, they told me that, "Oh, you write so well. Why are you under charging yourself? You should be charging around $150, $200, $300 for one blog post, and that just kicked off my desire to grow into something big, and I got a kick for social media strategy and content creation, again from Upwork. But that's a really good kind, and that's when I just realized that I love social media. I love creating content on social media. It's far easier to write a set of different posts rather than just write a one long form content. It's just get very repetitive for me. Yeah, that's when I ... I didn't choose to be a social media strategist. I've been flowing through and growing through that process of becoming a freelancer, then a content creator, then a copywriter, and ultimately, a social media copywriter and then a strategist. Yeah, it's been very fluid for me. Rob:  I love the progression. You answer's like each step leads to the next one very logically. I want to go to the very first thing that you did as a 17-year-old. What did you do to get hired as a copywriter? There are people in their 30s, 40s and 50s that are struggling to get hired. How did you set yourself apart as a 17-year-old? Hira:  I don't know. I've been really good at creative writing. I won third position when I was in class one and that was the time my teachers really appreciated me, and I just started writing a lot of poems and a lot of essays and stuff like that. I used to do a lot of reading, and then I got published in a few local magazines as well when I was a kid. The writing part comes naturally to me. But what I did work on to set myself apart on that stage was working on how I do my research, how I structure my content, and how I make that relatable to my audience. Those were the three things that I worked on back then. I've never shied away from learning. I'm always learning since the past 10, 12 years. I'm either learning through a course or just listening to podcasts, taking notes, learning from experts, watching YouTube videos, and how back then I used to do a lot of research on SEO just to help my clients rank their blog posts. I was always learning. Kira:  Once you realize that you wanted to do more social media strategy after that first great client on Upwork, what did you do from there when you're like, "This is it.

Eman Ismail is our guest for the 245th episode of The Copywriter Club podcast. Eman is an email copywriter who has quickly become a go-to expert for all things email copy. Eman made the transition from feast or famine freelancer to CEO by implementing VIP days into her business. If you want to make the switch to VIP days and day rates, don’t miss this episode. Here is what else we cover: Going from charity worker to charity freelancer. The difficulties of being a mom and owning a business. How to let your network know what you do in a way that’s not uncomfortable. Shifting niches and how to attract your ideal customer. The fastest way to level up your freelance business. When being booked out doesn’t mean paying the bills. Hitting the first 5k month and shifting your mindset to get out of feast or famine mode. How niching down can be terrifying but bring in more clients than ever before. When to increase your prices and invest in yourself. The secret to making the most out of your investments. The number one way to maximize all of the coaching and courses you go through. How to shift from a project-based model to a VIP day model. The better way to structure VIP days to allow for maximum results. Why you should hire someone for the service you provide. Perfecting your systems and processes and learning from others. Finding your ideal work schedule and allowing enough time for research. Selecting an online platform where you can find your ideal clients. The importance of a marketing plan. Whether your a new copywriter or you've been in the copywriting space for awhile, you'll get actionable advice on building your business. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Think Tank Eman’s website Copywriting resource guide Full Transcript: Rob:  There's no doubt that you've heard the phrase overnight success, and usually when people talk about this you're saying that there's no such thing. Success takes time, and finding it overnight is incredibly rare, if it happens at all. Today's guest for The Copywriter Club Podcast is Eman Ismail, and Eman recently gave a talk at TCC(N)IRL, that's our event, about how she went from being completely unknown to being the name on everyone's lips in less than a year, and during a year when we had a pandemic. It wasn't overnight, but it happened incredibly fast, and she shared what she did to make that happen, partly in this interview and also in that presentation, available with the IRL recordings. But before we talk to Eman, let's talk to you just a little bit about the Copywriter Think Tank, that's our mastermind for copywriters and other marketers who want to do more in their business and their work, whether you want to build a more robust copywriting business with better clients and better projects, and of course better way, whether you want to add on something like a podcast, or a course, or something like that, or even if you want to build a mini agency or some other kind of business model that you've been thinking about. Those are the kinds of things that the people in the Copywriter Think Tank are doing all the time. If you're ready to surround yourself with people who are thinking bigger about their business, then you should visit copywriterthinktank.com. Sign up for a quick information session. There's no hard pitch, I promise, and maybe you can join this group of extraordinary business owners too. Now, before we jump into our conversation with Eman, you'll notice that Kira is not here, and that's because Kira is actually having a baby today. So, we unfortunately aren't going to have Kira for the next couple of weeks as we talk about the things on the podcast, but I am going to bring in other people on our team, other copywriters that we know and want to be able to share some of their thoughts about the interviews. So, while it's just me, Rob, today, starting next week we'll introduce you to other copywriters as we talk about the things that our guests share on the podcast. So, having said that, let's jump into our conversation with Eman and ask about her story and how she became a copywriter. Eman:  I was managing the communications department for a local charity, and I was copywriting, I was doing a lot of marketing, creating their videos, and running their social media, which I hated but was part of the job description. As I was kind of doing this job, I realized that it was the copywriting side of this that I really loved, but didn't know that you could get paid to do it. So, I kind of discovered that people will pay you to write their websites and write their emails. I also got really hooked on the idea of, because it was a charity, I send out an email and then money just floods in in response to this email, and that feeling was really addictive. I asked my manager back then if I could do more courses and learn more around copywriting, because I was really passionate about it, and it was always kind of like, "Yeah, we'll talk about this in a few months. Yeah, maybe." Meaning no. So, with that, and then on top of that I had to do a commute to work every day. My son back then was two, so it meant that I wasn't seeing him very much. I was leaving my house at ... Oh gosh, I was waking up at 5:00 AM, leaving my house with him at 8:00, dropping him off at nursery. I was on the motorway really early, or highway, really early on in the morning and I wouldn't get home till about 8:00 PM. By the time I got home, so he'd already been picked up by a childminder, he'd be asleep on the couch waiting for me to come home. Yeah, he'd refuse to go to bed until I got home, and he'd do his best to stay awake and could never stay awake for me. So, I'd come home every day and he'd be asleep on the couch, and it was I fell into a depression. I just kind of spiraled, and I was really unhappy with the way things were working out. I was in this job where I was being, I was working all day, and then I was being messages all day and night on WhatsApp and weekends, and I was expected to do additional work on weekends, and on holidays and things like that, and it was just not where I wanted to be. I remember thinking I took this job so that I could create a better life for me and my son, and yeah, it's great having a bit more money, and it wasn't a lot more, honestly, because I didn't get paid that much either, but I wasn't seeing him anymore, and it just felt like this is not worth it. This isn't what I signed up for. So, I did speak to my manager and asked him about working from home more, he said no, asked him for a pay rise as well, to which he said not that figure. He wasn't happy with the figure that I asked for, and he said, "I don't quite think you're there yet." Was his actual answer, and I remember just in that moment thinking, "Well, I actually think I'm far beyond that. I was being nice with the figure that I asked you for." And so yeah, I realized that it was time to go. It was time to go. So, I resigned. I had a month's notice to work, so I worked that month. I told people on LinkedIn that I was going to be a freelance copywriter, because at that point I had no savings, I had no other job lined up. I'd already tried to set up a copywriting business a couple of times and it had failed, so this was actually my third attempt, and I just remember thinking like, "This has to work. I have a son now, it has to work." And I had a lot more motivation for it to work, like I had to get it right because now it was about creating a lifestyle for me and my son, it wasn't just about money anymore. So yeah, I told people on LinkedIn that I was going to be a freelance copywriter. Is anyone looking for one? I actually got quite a few responses and found my very first client on there. The day that I resigned, the day that I actually finished working for that charity, the CEO messaged me a couple of hours later asking if he could hire me as a freelancer, so that was great. So, that charity also ended up being one of my very first clients. By Monday I had another client that in was working with, and then it just kind of snowballed. So, initially I found myself working with a bunch of small charities, which wasn't the plan, but because of my network it just happened really naturally, and I was just grateful to kind of have clients at that point, but I knew that I wanted to expand and didn't want to stay in that small kind of charity world. So, that took some time, but it was great that things started moving pretty quickly. Rob:  So Eman, when you compare the previous times that you had tried to start a copywriting business where you had failed, and this time where you succeeded, what was the difference? What made it so that this time wasn't another failure? Eman:  I think firstly I had people to look up to. So, I'd started listening to Belinda and Kate's podcast, Hot Copy Podcast, and just knowing that it was possible, that there really were people out there who were copywriters and who were making a good amount of money made it feel like it was really possible. Around that time I also started listening to this podcast, so this is a few years ago now. I just listened to this podcast and listened to the interviews and realizing that this can happen. Why can't it happen for me? That was a big game changer. The Hot Copy Podcast was a big part of it because they were really great in sharing tips and strategies around how to actually get started and they really demystified the whole thing for me and it became a case of okay, I think I can actually do this, I can see how this would work, and now I just need to execute. So, on top of being way more motivated than I've ever been to make it work, it was also a case of I'm inspired by a whole bunch of people.

On the 244th episode of The Copywriter Club podcast, Sarah Greesonbach joins the show. After spending years in the classroom, she discovered the world of content marketing and e-commerce. Sarah is a prime example that you can be a highly paid and sought-after content writer when you position yourself as the expert and provide value time and time again. Here’s what we talk about: Writing an ebook all about life after teaching and jumping into the online business realm. Putting your all into your passion without boundaries. Creating an open door after getting laid off. Going from $20-30hr to $800 blog posts. How to make the shift in money and clientele. The reality of setting up your mindset for growth and success. Why you shouldn’t be shopping in your dream client’s wallet. The clear and cut process of writing white papers. What white papers are going for these days and how it can be your in with a potential client. How to showcase your authority right away and take the strategy lead. One simple skill that makes you more money. The shift from “perfect business” to realistic expectations of building a business. How to create buckets, so you can focus on the most important aspects of your business. Using LinkedIn to work with ongoing and steady clients. The difference between writing for B2B and B2C. The truth about being creative and understanding your capacity for scheduling it into your day. Want to create a profitable content writing business? Tune into the episode to learn how to make it happen. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Think Tank Sarah’s website Full Transcript: Rob:  Over the past three years, we've interviewed hundreds of copywriters about their approach to business, their writing processes, their stories, and their tips for writing better copy. The vast majority of them describe themselves as copywriters, but today's guest for the 244th episode of The Copywriter Club podcast Sarah Greesonbach calls herself a content writer. And I'll be honest, I don't see a lot of difference between copy and content. Both are designed to create and support a relationship between a company or brand and its customers. Both are part of the sales process, and both require a smart, strategic approach to make sure that they connect with the right people. We talked a lot about Sarah's approach to content in this episode. And if you write and sell content as part of your business, you're going to learn a lot from this interview. Kira:  Before we hear what Sarah has to say, this podcast episode is brought to you by The Copywriter Think Tank. The Think Tank is our private mastermind for copywriters and other marketers who want to challenge each other, create multiple new revenue streams in their businesses, receive coaching from the two of us, and ultimately grow to six figures or more. Up until last year, we only opened the Think Tank once a year, but today we invite a few new members each month. If you've been looking for a mastermind to help you grow, visit copywriterthinktank.com to find out more. Rob:  Okay, let's jump into our interview with Sarah and find out more about her path to content writing. Sarah:  Through that is Craigslist, it was pretty amazing. And this was a bit more popular back in the early 2010s when Craigslist was more of a thing. But my story actually starts, I got a master's in arts and teaching, and I taught ninth grade English. And they basically chewed me up and spit me out in about two and a half years. I had reached ultimate burnout as a workaholic because the classroom will take everything you can give it, so I gave it everything. And I had to make my escape. And at that point, I hit that wall a lot of writers hit where it's like, what else could I possibly do? I did the teaching, that's not working for me. Where can I go? And so I just started Googling a lot of stuff about how people hire, what they look for in a candidate when they're trying to fill a position. And that led me to the world of online blogging. And I wrote an ebook of life after teaching. I tried to start a website with that and a community, and I learned about e-commerce. And it just cracked open the world of the internet for me. So after that, I realized I could be a content writer because that's a thing on the internet. And I used Craigslist and found a job that was closer to my husband. And they had a surprise for me, which was that I was laid off after about six months. So it felt like a lot of hope and then taken away, and then hope and then taken away. And while I was recovering from that and bingeing a lot of Netflix, I realized if that guy was selling my writing, so the marketing manager was doing the markup and selling that to companies as I know now, why couldn't I do that? So I embraced my fear of the phone, started pitching and landed some of those early projects. Rob:  Okay. I first want to ask about ninth grade chewing you up and spitting you out. Ninth grade is pretty hard on ninth graders, but I can't even imagine being a ninth grade teacher. Tell us just a little bit more about that experience. What was it that made it so that you just, two years was enough? Sarah:  Yeah. I want to maintain the innocent of the innocent, so let me think. I think it was the combination of workaholism and the classroom because there are people who can go into teaching and they have these boundaries built in, and they can go home and not think about work. They can not do the grading ... That's my husband, he was in the classroom and made it nine years. But the nature of the classroom is just that it will take everything you have. So you need to be as a circus wrangler, a teacher, a presenter, entertainer, subject-matter expert. There's no end to what it requires from you. So if you can't put the brakes on it, then that will be the end of you. Kira:  So let's jump to that, being a workaholic or just not having boundaries because that makes sense for teaching, but it certainly shows up for freelancers and copywriters who don't have boundaries. Many of us who tend to lean into being a workaholic even though we don't want to, so how have you worked through that over time, I know this is jumping years, so that it doesn't burn you out in this business? Sarah:  Yeah. It's really been a journey, and it's taken a lot of leaders for me to look up to like you guys and Ed Gandia, and people who can just reassure you that if you put boundaries in place, everything won't fall apart. It's okay, you can tell people no, you can tell people I can't start for two weeks. I think I was so excited by being able to control my income and lean in and see the results of that and lean back see the results of that that it took until this year to really implement capacity planning. So I've been doing this for eight years in October, and this is the first time that I've really mapped out what I'm going to do in the next two months and how much time it will take and how to make sure I'm not having 10-hour days. So I've never really had that transparency in there before. Rob:  I definitely want to come back to the capacity planning idea. I think there's a lot to explore there. But before we skip over, I also want to touch on the fact that you were laid off. And so this is something that I think is a pretty common experience for a lot of people who find freelancing whether they're copywriters or designers or something else, they learn the skill maybe in a bigger environment, corporate environment. And then this layoff comes. And for a lot of people, it's really disheartening. Some people, they're able to pick themselves up and just move on. But for others, it's a really hard thing to feel that kind of rejection. Tell us a little bit about your experience and how you got through that. Maybe you're one of the lucky few, I don't know. I was laid off at one point from a job. I know again, a lot of copywriters have been through that. Just give us a sense of what that felt like. Sarah:  I can still vividly remember that feeling of being led into the conference room alone like a little puppy. I was cold from head to feet, and I didn't really understand what was happening, and then they walked me out. And it was a really small team, so it was just me and a web designer and the graphic designer. So it definitely came as a surprise. But I did feel better finding out it was more of a change in direction, and the company was shifting models to be more sales focused and didn't need the content in-house and that kind of stuff. But I took it hard because work was my life and my identity. And it's really hard to separate that when the thing you're good at you're not allowed to go back there and do that for a little bit so you have to find your own way to do that. So I'd say, yeah, I had my two weeks of just eating sausage links and broccoli, laying on the couch, watching Netflix and had to move on. Kira:  And when you did move on, so you mentioned Craigslist or maybe the Craigslist was this job, but how did you gain traction once you got through that and you stopped bingeing Netflix and you landed your first few clients, what did that look like? Sarah:  It was really neat because I basically used the model that the company I've been working with was using. So I realized if that digital marketing company needed somebody to write content, surely there's another digital marketing company that needs you to write content. And this is right when HubSpot was really picking up, and everybody really needed bloggers. So I found a few people on LinkedIn that were in my local network and offered to write for them. And that worked out, which was a huge rush. And then I realized I could find anybody across the country,

On the 243rd episode of The Copywriter Club podcast, Yara Golden (dare we say it) drops gems you need to take note of. Yara Golden fell into the world of copywriting unexpectedly and said goodbye to her relationship coaching days. Now, she runs an agency of copywriters on the basis of storytelling. Here’s what we covered: How our greatest strengths can become our biggest weaknesses. When things seem to be falling apart, how do you pick up the pieces? The art of not being able to screw up being yourself. Transitioning from relationship coach to email copywriting magician. 3 lessons to improve yourself and the relationships you have with others. Going against the grain and breaking the copy “rules.” The #1 thing business owners need. How to strategically take on multiple clients at a time while managing a team. Reaching the epiphany step in the story selling method. The secret to being the character that your ideal client or customer wants to be. The better way to be customer-centric and close sales. The truth about negative inspiration and why it works for entrepreneurs. The fine line of taking in knowledge and closing off what makes us unique. How to revive an inactive email list. - Hint: Don’t say sorry. Are copy blocks the new day rates? Mentorships and helping others sparkle as they grow their businesses. The mindset shift between self-employed and entrepreneur. How to step into the spotlight when you don’t feel you deserve it. Taking the feelings of discomfort and using them to your full advantage. Working through a bad relationship with money and coming up with a strategic plan. The merging of projects and companies: How can this be done? How to write copy without VOC. This episode is a must-listen. If not, a must-read. Check out the transcript below. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Think Tank Yara’s website Full Transcript: Kira:  Maybe the best thing about having a podcast is the opportunity to talk to so many smart and accomplished copywriters and marketing experts. Even the writers we talked to who are just starting out have unique ideas and perspectives. I think we both can safely say we feel lucky to talk to such talented people and get to learn while we're doing it. And today's guest for the 243rd episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast is Yara Golden. And she shared some of her early struggles in her business, the way she packages and sells her services, the lessons she's learned about boundaries and so much more. There are a ton of great takeaways in this episode. Rob:  Before we talk to Yara, let's talk to you, our listeners, about the Copywriter Think Tank. That's our mastermind for copywriters and other marketers who want to do more in their business in their work. Maybe you've dreamed about creating a product, podcast, and you want to build a mini agency, like the one that Yara built, that she's going to tell us about here in just a minute, or a product company. Maybe you want to become just the best copywriter in your industry or in your niche, or the person that has the high-paying clients and have them know that you're the one that they should be calling. That's the kind of thing that we help copywriters in the Copywriter Think Tank do. To learn more, visit copywriterthinktank.com, and maybe you can join this group of extraordinary business owners too. Kira:  Before we get into the interview, we should note that after a couple of minutes, Rob's internet went down. So, if you're wondering why I hog the mic, and ask all the questions while Rob is quiet, while I didn't kick him off the show, it's just a little bit of trouble. Rob:  Not yet. Kira:  Not yet. So, let's jump into our conversation with Yara and find out about her path into copywriting. Yara:  Oh, my gosh, it's such a great question because I have no idea. I think when I look back on my life, writing has always been a huge part of me, right? I tell people, I didn't choose writing, writing chose me. And so, and at the end of 2013, I was going through a divorce. And it was really the first time in my life that I was going to be on my own, responsible for my own bills. And now, it wasn't just me, it was me and my two kids, right? And so, I was very much thinking, how am I going to provide the life that I'm used to that I want without having to trade my time for it, right? And so, and I remember this conversation I had with a girlfriend back then. And she said, "You can always get a job at Nordstrom." And I felt this fire ignite inside of me. And it was indignation, right, where I was like, "I don't work at Nordstrom, I shop there." And it's nothing against retail, there's any job that you want to do is perfectly fine, but it was that moment of knowing that I was capable of so much more. And the fact that that's where she had boxed me in just enraged me. And I was fortunate enough to have been around a lot of people who were in the internet marketing space. There was a lot of coaches and coaching groups and things like that. And I started seeing people were making money by getting on the phone and having a really cool conversation with people. And I was like, "Can you sign me up for that? I can totally do that." And then, I went through this whole journey of like, well, what can you actually help people with? And I think at the time, it was really going through and navigating the divorce process and becoming someone else on the other side of that, right, like my personal growth journey. And so, I became a Relationship Coach. At a time when I absolutely could not believe people were paying me for relationship advice, because I was like, "Do they not see the disaster I just created in my life?" But it was learning that, it was navigating that and how I was going through the process that was inspiring them, that was encouraging them, and motivating them to do things differently than they thought they needed to be done. And so, growing that business, I needed to become a marketer, and I needed to become a business person, and I needed to become all of these different things that I'd had no experience with. And writing became the thing I really leaned on and the way that I marketed my business. And I really was that person that thought, I'm going to write that one email, or I'm going to write that one Facebook post and it's going to be the thing that changes everything for me. And slowly and surely, I realized that that wasn't actually the case, but that's really how I got into writing sales copy and really using it as something that I could leverage to grow a business. Rob:  Yeah, tell us a little bit more about that process of rethinking who you were, rebuilding, not just from a business or work standpoint, but what you were doing as a human being, as you're going through that divorce and figuring out what it was that you wanted to do. Yara:  Yeah. So, it's actually really interesting. And I'm glad you asked this, because I don't think a lot of people hone in on that piece of the story. My ex-husband and I had done a ton of personal relationship. If there was a Tony Robbins event, we were there. If there was a program, we did it. If there was a book, we read it. But I find that people come to personal development at one of two points in their lives, typically, right? You're either on a high, and you don't want it to end, or you're at a low and you're like, something's got to change. I wasn't in any of those situations when I was going through personal development. And so, I learned and conceptualized a lot of the stuff that I was learning. And I became really, really good at looking at other people and saying, well, you're significance-driven, or you should really look into this or that or the other, but I've never looked at myself through the lens of personal development. And so, it was really when I hit that low in my own life, where I was like, oh, my gosh, my life is falling apart, my marriage is falling apart. The people around me are not really the people that I want to be around. I'm not showing up as how I really want to be. And the common denominator is me, right? I'm the one thing that all of these situations have in common, maybe I should start taking a look at me. And again, that wasn't completely self-driven. There were a lot of people around me who were years ahead of me in the personal development game and the transformation game. And so, I was really, really fortunate to be able to look around me and see people that were already in that messy middle and coming out on the other side. But it was a lot of journaling. It was a lot of talking really, really honest, vulnerable conversations. My ex-husband and I actually have a really, really great friendship. And we did from the moment that we decided to separate. We were like, we still love each other, we just don't want to be married anymore. And we have these two amazing kids and they deserve a happy co-parenting relationship from here on out. And so, it was just a lot of, I mean, it sounds cliché, because vulnerability is such a catchword right now, but it was a lot of vulnerability and honesty and authenticity of saying, "You know what, I like this, I don't like that. I want this, I don't want that." And the process of figuring out what those preferences were was really difficult for me because I had been showing up as such a people pleaser for so many years that I'd really lost who I was in the process. Kira:  Yeah. Well, maybe we could dig deeper into that, the people pleasing side because so many copywriters that we chat with in a community are people pleasers. I'm myself included. So, what advice would you give to someone else who is struggling and shows up as a people person, people pleaser?

Jared Macdonald is our guest for the 242nd episode of The Copywriter Club podcast. Jared is a copywriter whose focus is on user experience and customer research. It’s more than just the words we write, it’s about getting inside the heads of our ideal clients, so we can provide a product or service they truly need and want. Jared has proved his expertise in the area of serving his clients because he works with his clients for an average of 2.5 years. Here’s what else we talked about: Combining copy research with user experience and creating magic. Taking a life-threatening situation and turning it into a positive. Being okay with not having everything figured out in your business journey. There is no tiering to struggles and understanding we don’t know what someone is battling. How doing tasks in your business that don’t scale can end up leading to immense growth. Why over-delivering and building lasting client relationships go hand in hand. The steps to create points of excitement through every phase of a funnel. How to lengthen client relationships while respecting your own boundaries. The secret to being seen as the consultant from the beginning. Voice of customer research questions you need to include in your interview process. How to elevate your customer journey and provide the highest of experiences for your clients. Tools that can help you streamline and save you time. Getting to a place where YOU selectively choose your clients and make sure they’re worthy of a sales call. The benefits of working with retainer clients as a new copywriter. Best practices for networking when it can feel awkward and overwhelming. Hit that play button below or read the transcript if you want to improve your client experience. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Think Tank Jared’s website Jared’s workshop  Full Transcript: Rob:  One of the big challenges of running a copywriting business is finding clients. And unless you have retainers, once you find a good client and do the work, you've got to go back out there and find another client and then another. But what if the great clients that you have could stick with you, offering project after project month after month so you don't have to spend your time prospecting and instead you can focus on problem solving. That's what Jared McDonald, our guest for the 242nd episode of the Copywriter Club podcast does. His average client relationship lasts almost two and a half years. And we asked him what he does that makes his clients so happy and he shared a few ideas that any copywriter can implement into their business. Kira:  Before we hear what Jared has to say, this podcast episode is brought to you by the Copywriter Think Tank mastermind, which Jared has participated in. The Think Tank is our private mastermind for copywriters and other marketers who want to challenge each other, create new revenue streams in their businesses, receive coaching from the two of us and ultimately grow to six figures or more. Up until last year, we only opened the Think Tank once a year, but today we invite a few new members each month. If you've been looking for a mastermind group to help you grow, visit copywriterthinktank.com to find out more. Rob:  Okay. Let's jump into our interview with Jared with this question about how he became a copywriter, a marketing consultant, and a UX strategist. Jared:  Yeah, it's a great question. I mean, from a story perspective, do you want the short version, long version? No. Rob:  I want a medium version. Sort of in the middle. Jared:  Medium, yeah? Medium details. Yeah. I mean, I started out in experiential marketing and doing sales as well. And then it really wasn't until I went to... Wanted to go to school to be a diplomat in foreign languages for some odd reason. And then, as you both know, my kind of cancer diagnosis and that whole journey kind of led me out of that path and it couldn't have been the best. It was literally the best thing because I managed to get a gig at a startup downtown Toronto, because I'm Canadian. And then started there, started content marketing, content strategy. And that's kind of where the words, coming from a sports journalism background. Rob, you know I'm a big baseball fan. So I was covering baseball and hockey for a long time on the side. It wasn't until I met you fine folks in the Copy Hackers mastermind where words can sell and the rest is kind of history. So moving from there, I loved the research side and I still do write copy periodically now, but not as much anymore. And I just love the research side. So at the same time, shortly after I met you both, I segued into user experience through the Nielsen Norman Group and really kind of saw a lot of overlaps with user experience and copy research. And then it kind of just blossomed from there. And since then, I've worked with e-commerce clients, financial startups as well and heavily on strategy right now, but used to write copy. Rob:  You started out with experiential marketing, you said. Tell us more about that. That may not be a term that everybody's heard. Obviously referring to the experience and marketing experience, but yeah, what is that and what were you doing? Jared:  Yeah, it's funny because I didn't even really know what experiential marketing is. In the world that we're in with list building and wanting to create a list and provide an experience, this was kind of doing that but in person. So it was at sporting events and essentially, maybe we can link a photo in the show notes, but essentially it was backpacks with full sound and laptops inside and there were screens over top of your head. You do outdoor. I know Kira is already picturing this is great. So you'd be outside at sporting events or tailgate parties and those kinds of things and brands at the time like Blackberry and stuff would hire us. And you're basically providing an in-person experience and you take photos of people with cameras and you'd have a wrist keyboard that you would enter in their email to email them photos of the event. Yeah, this was kind of list building. And obviously back then, I wouldn't have had any clue I'd even go into user experience or anything like that. So it's kind of funny how things, I've always been prioritizing the experience and now I'm doing it digitally instead of in person. Rob:  I was hoping that you were one of the guys in the president's costumes running around the track at like nationals game or whatever, but not like that. Jared:  Yeah. President or the big celery costume or a hot wing. Rob:  Exactly. Jared:  And then you fall down intentionally to let the other... Yeah. Oh, that's great. Kira:  When people walk up to you, what was on the screen above your head? Jared:  Yeah, I know, it's so mysterious. I mean, it was promos for kind of a Blackberry model or features or we had like a camera app. There were different apps because there was a laptop in the backpack. There was a lot of different apps and functionality that we could do with it. But the two most common ones were just kind of a video playing with full sound. And because the screen was over top of your head, you'd stick out and a crowd of people would come up to you. The people I was managing at the time, we hired really extroverted people who just loved going up and talking to others and just kind of breaking the ice. So it was a lot of fun. Rob:  This seems like a job you should have had, Kira. This is the perfect job for you. Kira:  I would be so bad at that. I would be like, "Don't talk to me. I don't want to talk to you." But I feel like Jared's friendly and that would be perfect. Like you're tall, so you stand out. People can see the screen. Jared:  Well, I was just going to say the same thing about you. I was going to say the same thing about you. People would ask you, "Wow, you're so tall." And you probably don't get that often, right Kira? Kira:  No, I don't get that enough. So that would have been a good job for me. What lessons did you learn from that experience of having that job where you're out there and you're taking photos of people and marketing that way? Lessons that could help freelance copywriters today. Jared:  It's interesting sometimes to apply in person experiences or even conferences now, but back then, I mean, I think really wanting to provide a unique kind of experience. And I think there's a lot of opportunity for copywriters like us to really go outside the norm and really create a unique experience, whether it's in your sales process or onboarding. There's so many opportunities to delight and that's really what this was about back then, was yes, you would take people's photos and be able to email them a photo of the event afterwards. And then obviously the brand would have the contact info and the same kinds of things. But I think it was just so much better to just be there with your friends. You didn't have a camera and you could get a photo emailed to you. That was just one kind of example. But I think really the main thing was just to look for opportunities to delight in the experiences that you're having, whether it's with clients or your students or members or however we want to call them. You hear customer experience right now and it's a buzz term, but what does that actually mean? And I think really just wanting to find opportunities to delight and over-deliver. Rob:  I know we're going to come back to this idea because it's something that you're focused on in your business today before we get to what you're doing today. You're I think the first almost diplomat we've ever had on the podcast too. Kira:  Yeah, I didn't know that about you. Rob:  What was the drill about? Yeah, what were you thinking?

On the 241st episode of The Copywriter Club podcast, Daniel Lamb jumps on the show. Daniel Lamb is a copywriter who helps marketing agencies and B2B brands create conversions within their funnels. Throughout his time as a bartender and agency copywriter, he was able to take essential skills and blend them into his own agency.We also talked about:How to leverage opportunity when it’s sitting right in front of you.Connecting music and copywriting and how they both can evoke a response.The reality of creating your own luck. - Is it possible?What you gain when working with low-paying clients.Skills you gain while working for an agency.How to properly use data to get the best results for clients.Starting an agency “your way” after getting furloughed.The running cycle of looking for clients. - Feast and famine?Turning rubber bands and duck tape into smooth and clear systems.Tips on what to do when you’re fearful of diving into the stats.If you want to run an agency, then you need to be clear on one thing.How investing in relationships will propel you forward.Best practices for working with junior copywriters and the benefits of SOPs.The better way to manage a team and keep everything together.The simple practice that can really turn around procrastination.The secret to hacking your brain and mindset.The shift between taking care of your business and letting your business take care of you.The ins and out of hosting a podcast and surprises along the way.The first thing to consider when deciding on building a partnership.Thinking about starting an agency? Check out this episode or grab the transcript below. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show:Kira’s websiteRob’s websiteThe Copywriter Club Facebook GroupThe Copywriter UndergroundThink TankLinchpin by Seth Godin Who not how by Dan Sullivan Daniel’s website Daniel Lamb podcast - Ritual Linda’s episode Full Transcript:Transcript is underway...

Kira and Rob join each other as guests on the 240th episode of The Copywriter Club podcast. After hosting the show and being business partners for almost 5 years, they discuss tips and tools others can use to create more growth and avoid pitfalls along the way. Here’s how it breaks down: The 6 Mistakes Rob and Kira have made during their copywriting careers. Why being part of a community will skyrocket your career and build your skillset. How to be a problem solver for your clients, so they don’t have to guess and search for a solution. What Rob was doing before The Copywriter Club. Why this simple word will give you more power and create higher quality work. The value of testimonials and why they’ll grow your business. Being unaligned and the results it can bring. How to overcome comparisonitis when it keeps knocking at your door. Unveiling your unique mechanism and x-factor, so you can tap into your full-potential. How to successfully pull off a virtual event and create real community online. Building a team and focusing on the buckets that propel the business forward. Motivation and getting things done with a positive attitude. Why it’s vital to make time for things you love outside of your business. A better way to look at your business that will make all the difference in your sustainability and impact. Trends and patterns in the copywriting space that you should avoid. Books and podcasts Listen in on the podcast below or check out the transcript and give it a read. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Books and things we're into right now: 21 Lessons for the 21st Century by Yuval Noah Harari   The Highly Sensitive Person by Elaine N. Aron Run to Win by Stephanie Schriock The Vanishing Half by Brit Bennett You Get What You Pitch For by Anthony Sullivan The Catalyst by Jonah Berger A History of the World in 10 and a Half Chapters by Julian Barnes The Road Less Stupid by Keith J. Cunningham Frank Morgan Radio The Smartless podcast The Tim Ferriss Show Full Transcript: Kira:  Hi, Rob. Rob:  Hey, Kira. We were just saying that we should have written an intro for this episode, since we write those after we record. Now, our process is all changed and we're just recording now this interview to go live next week actually. So I don't know if we're going to have time to do an intro or not. Kira:  We don't. Yeah. We're anti shoulds, right? All the things you should do, let's just not do it. We don't... No more shoulds for us. So there is no intro. It's just us, the two of us today. This is episode 240, right? Rob:  Yeah. Episode 240 and every 10th episode or so we like to just jump on and just chat about different stuff, go guest free and this is all our stuff. If you don't like that, you can skip to the next episode or listen to last week's episode or stay tuned and you get a full dose of Kira and Rob. Kira:  Yes. This is just us wild and free. So we are going to ask each other questions and just kind of interview each other because even though we talk frequently, we don't always ask each other questions about business ideas, what else we're doing so I think Rob and I just need more quality time together. We have a lot of time together, maybe we need more quality time together. Rob:  There you go. Yeah. Finding out more. I mean, we've only been doing this for four years, right? So trying to understand who the other person is with I think- Kira:  Who are you? Who is this person? So let's kick it off with the first question. Rob, what are some mistakes that you've made in your copywriting business? I guess this could really be any mistake. It's all fair game. But I was just thinking, I think frequently about mistakes I've made with projects with clients previously. I don't know why they just kind of pop in to my mind at different times and every time I think about it, I'm like, oh, we should talk about that. We should share the stuff that doesn't go as well or what we look back on and wish we could change. Because so often we talk about everything that is going well or all the things that we've done well, but let's focus on some of those mistakes. Rob:  Yeah. Let's talk about all the things we do wrong. And we're mostly talking about our own personal businesses here, the things that we do working one-on-one with clients. And as I was thinking about this earlier, there are a couple of things that come up, I think, for a lot of the copywriters that we talk to in the think tank when we're coaching or even in the accelerator, the underground, these kinds of things, I've made the exact same mistakes that they do. And I think I've mentioned this one in particular several times, but the number one mistake that I made especially when I went out and started freelancing, was trying to do it all on my own, going alone, not having a network of support. That doesn't mean that my family wasn't behind me or that I didn't know other people in business, but I hadn't really lined up a community that I could bounce questions off of, ask questions about, say, invoices or proposals or pitching or any of that kind of stuff. And I think that slowed my progress as I launched my own business as a freelancer. I can remember back in my agency days, which was a long time ago and we're working with freelancers and freelancers would come into the office and I think, man, how are they making this work? How are they getting this stuff done? How are they pitching their clients? And just having had even five or six people that I can bounce those kinds of questions off of I think would've made it a lot easier. So that's number one. Number two, I think when I launched my own business, I didn't realize how powerful it is to be able to identify a problem or a pain that my client is having to go right at that. And so my first few pitches to clients I went out and I basically get an appointment to go sit down with them using my network whatever, to get it into the conference room with them and then I just say, "Hey, what are your copywriting needs?" And I'd let them figure out how I could help them instead of the other way around. And I think it's much more powerful when you can come in and say, "Hey, you need help with this kind of content. I can put together a strategy. I can deliver this for you, X, Y, and Z." Or, "I noticed on your homepage you're not collecting emails. I can put together this kind of a lead funnel for you." Or whatever the problems are, I think I could have done a lot better on that. And then number three, biggest mistakes that I've made, and I still make this mistake, is I don't charge enough. And not necessarily being aware of how much value a client gets from the work that we do, I think that just holds us all back and I still want to win the business. And so when I know that I'm sending out a proposal or whatever, oftentimes I'll still cut down my prices below what I think I really should be charging them because I want to make sure that I get the business, right? So those are maybe the three biggest mistakes as I look back. They're not necessarily specific to a particular client, but really specific to the kind of business that we all run. How about you? Kira:  Well, just wondering, when did you start your freelance business? So when you're talking about, I didn't have a network, what year was that? Rob:  Yes. So I mean, I freelanced the whole time that I've worked, right? So I've always had kind of a backup job or I've had my own company or whatever. And so I was always doing freelancing through there. I launched my own business in 2016 really hardcore going out only doing copywriting only, that kind of stuff. And again, I had my own company from 2014 through 2016, so I was freelancing at that time, but I also had the SAS company that I had that was bringing in revenue. Once I sold that off and I was all in, that was about 2016. Kira:  Cool. I want to circle back. So it would be cool to talk about if you're comfortable with it today selling your SAS company at some point, and just the steps it takes, because I'm really interested in that. So I'm going to- Rob:  And I probably did it all wrong. If we talked about it, you'd be like, oh, Rob, you could have had so much more money or I don't know. So let's talk about some of the mistakes you've made- Kira:  That would be cool. Rob:  ... that made you raise this question. Kira:  Yeah. So I think for me, when I look back, it was almost not knowing that I could really say no and not knowing that saying no when you're growing fast is actually a really smart way to grow in a smarter way. So not even just about burnout, but just like about doing quality work and really building strong relationships with clients, when I look back, I just kind of said yes to everything and I didn't even think it was an option to say no. I think it was just like not in my mindset or head just that you should probably say no and not stack everything. I almost was like, I think this is just how it's supposed to be, this is just how it's supposed to feel. So when I look back, I can think of specific clients where I think the quality of work was always good. Like I don't look back and ever say, wow, I really failed that project or I didn't put in enough effort into that project, but I do look back and I feel like there are certain projects where I worked with junior copywriters on them, I always did, and maybe it wasn't as good as it could have been if I would have given it more of my attention rather than spreading myself so thin across so many projects at one time. And so that was like when I was working on eight projects at a time and I just look back and I'm like, what were you thinking? And so I can think of a couple of specific ones where, again,

Full Transcript: Kira:  Being a launch copywriter is not the easiest thing in the world. You've got to understand launch strategy, be able to write sales pages and emails, maybe even write webinar scripts, Facebook and Google or YouTube ads, and more, and often even just support your client through the launch experience, which can be a rollercoaster at times. It's the kind of work that can easily lead to burnout if you're not careful. Our guest for the 239th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast is former Think Tank member, Kristina Shands. She joined us to talk all about the work involved with writing and strategizing for launches, and she talked about ways to make launches more enjoyable too. Rob:  So, before we get to our interview with Kristina, we want to tell you that this podcast is brought to you by The Copywriter Think Tank. This is something we've been talking about quite a bit recently, and if you're tired of hearing us promote the Think Tank, maybe just visit the copywriterthinktank.com and find out what it's all about. It is our private mastermind for copywriters and other marketers who want to challenge each other, create new streams of revenue in their business, to receive coaching from the two of us, and ultimately grow your business to six figures or find more time for the things that you value, whatever your goals are, it's designed to help you reach them. If you've been looking for a mastermind to help you grow as a copywriter or as a business owner, again, visit copywriterthinktank.com to find out more. Kira:  Yeah, and we're not going to stop talking about it anytime soon. So, sorry. Okay, let's jump into our conversation with Kristina, as we usually do, with her story. Kristina:  The roundabout way is how I got here. I spent a lot of time in college just doing random stuff, and then I discovered this thing called public relations, and I figured out I could write pretty well. So, I got a degree in public relations and worked for nonprofits, and then one day, I came in, and my boss said, "Our grant isn't approved for next year, you're the only person that I can let go, and sorry." And so, I was like, "Oh, okay." So, I spent a year working with other fundraising coaches, worked as a grant writer. I've taught fundraising to local nonprofits, and then I worked with graphic designers. And I had some friends that owned a web company, and I had no idea what I was doing, but I knew I could write. I'd still at this point didn't know what copywriting was, I just knew I could write scripts and I could write stuff. Had no direction whatsoever. And then ended up finding out what internet marketing was, and got into that world, studied with some of the first, Frank Kern, sort of those types of copier, those types of internet marketers. And then became a VA, discovered launching from a client, came into her company as a junior copywriter, and that was when I was like, "Oh, wait, there's a science behind copywriting. It's not just writing words randomly and asking someone to do something, there's actually a formula and science and metrics and things that I can actually study." And then from there, it became a really dive into what it takes to be a real copywriter, how to become a better copywriter, about storytelling. And because my client was doing a lots of launches, I just got to study with her and watch her team do launches. From there, I just went on and started working with other friends and coaches and found my way through the maze. I've just been really lucky to get really great referrals and learning as I go and studying, and then found my way here. Long story short, I happened into it, and I'm really glad I did. Rob:  So, Kristina, I'm curious, going back to PR days, fundraising days, when you started mentioning that, I'm like, "Okay, how do you fundraise? What are the secrets to fundraising?" Because when you're offering somebody a product to sell or to buy, obviously, I'm going to give you money and I'm going to get something in return. But with fundraising, I'm going to give you money and maybe I'm going to get a few nice feelings in return or what, how do you make that work and be successful? Spill the secrets. Kristina:  It is absolutely the same thing. It's all about a feeling. So, you think we're selling a product, and you're not, you're selling a solution, as a fundraiser. And I worked for environmental companies in a state that's not known for environmental friendliness. I worked with clean energy and clean water groups. And so, trust-selling clean water to someone who is in a state where we've got tons of rain and dams and lakes that we can swim in year round, not year round, it gets cold here, but it's all about a feeling, it's all about selling a promise, selling the future, selling an emotion. Getting them to see that they can be part of the solution instead of part of the problem. So, how I nurtured and cultivated and solicited a major donor is how I do the same for one-on-one clients. And I really need to sit down and map it out because there was a system that we use from fundraising that directly correlates to prospecting. And it's a really beautiful, nurturing, proactive system, but when you're selling in fundraising, you're selling a solution. You're selling being part of a community that cares. It was a lot easier when I worked for a nonprofit that rescued bear cubs. It was really fun because we just got to put cute bear cubs on picture envelopes, and then say like, "Hey, give us money, the bears are hungry." And people would send us money. Putting a picture of a dirty stream and saying, "Hey, we need to clean up the stream." This is a little harder, but also getting really creative, getting to know people. I spent a lot of time on the phone with people, on the phone listening to like, do they have kids in the background? Where are they showing up in the newspaper? What other nonprofits do they support? What is their future? What do they want? And really getting to know them. It's the same thing as like when you're looking for one-on-one clients, you really get to know your clients, and before you even present a solution to them, you have an idea of how you want to work with them. And same thing with major donors. So, it's a really, really fun place to be in, it's just, the mindset of nonprofit work is very difficult because they think it's a scarcity, there's only a limited pot of money and lots of sacrificing, which is not always the easiest. But it's a really great place to be. Kira:  Kristina, how long have you been a copywriter now? As you were sharing your story, I couldn't tell if it's like, it's been a decade of copywriting for your own business, or if it's been a couple of years. Kristina:  I've been on my own since 2009, as a copywriter, I would probably say seven years, actually knowing what copywriting is. And then actually claiming a launch copywriter and that I know what I'm doing, I spent like three years. There's different evolutions of the confidence level. But actively studying it, actively going and putting myself in situations where I have to get better, three or four years. Yeah. But I've been trying to do this entrepreneur thing for a long time, and so, I'm just now starting to hit my stride as an entrepreneur, which is what you don't really learn when you first start out, how to pay taxes, how to set up a business entity. That stuff, I struggled with for a long time. Kira:  Kristina, let's talk about launching, because this is what your expertise is in, can you share with us how the launch space has changed over the last, at least the last three years that you've been focused on it, how it's evolved, and almost like a state of the union on launching? Kristina:  Yeah, absolutely. I think for launches, it's really come, there were just a few ways to launch at first. You had like your teleseminars, you had your telesummits, and you had your product launch formula sort of model. And then now you've got like your five-day challenges, your webinars, you've got your training series, you've got more advanced summits. So, things have progressed, but it all comes down to launching in a way that is good for you, and how you want to show up and how your clients want you to show up. It's all about building relationships. None of that's changed, it's just how the technology has changed. I'm sure that people are going to be launching using Clubhouse, and TikTok, and we've got Chatbots and all of that. And it all comes down to what you're comfortable, how you're comfortable showing up and selling, what your strengths are, and what you have the resources to handle. So, the how of launching may have changed over the years, but what you're actually doing hasn't changed at all. It's still building a relationship, creating a transformational experience, asking them to say yes. That will never change when it comes to a launch process. Kira:  How did we know what's good for us when we're launching? And maybe this is also a question for when we're working with clients too, and we're coming in and working on the launch strategy with a client, how do we start from the beginning to think about like, "Well, what is really good for this particular client?" And maybe even like, "What is good for me too as the person assisting this client?" Kristina:  Yeah. I think it starts with, what are their strengths? So, what are they really, really great at doing? And then what is the promise that they're selling? So, if you're selling a high-end coaching program, and all you're doing is teaching, but the teaching isn't part of the coaching program, that might not be the best way for people to really feel and see how it would be like to work with you. And on the other side of it is this, if you really, really hate video, but you're being pushed into doing a three-part video series, and then selling on video,