The Copywriter Club Podcast

Geoff Kullman is our guest for the 268th episode of The Copywriter Club podcast. Geoff is a direct-response copywriter and brand strategist who helps online entrepreneurs and personal brands tell better stories and make more money. Geoff breaks down how he uses neuroscience and psychology to write impactful copy that converts. Here’s all the things we talk about: The common denominator for copywriters and other writers. Geoff’s journey from devout pastor to direct-response copywriter. The importance of showcasing your abilities and talents within your website and business. How to make niching your own and work for you. The framework that takes people from prospect to customer. How to break down the 6-step framework for strong emails and sales pages. The difference between prompt and pitch and why it matters. Trauma-informed marketing and how to write from a place of empathy. Why the marketing world is shifting and how we can adapt to the changes. How to be more intentional about your client avatar. Finding your brand voice and helping your clients find theirs. Where most copywriters go wrong when creating ideal client avatars. What to leave out of emails to make them more compelling and connect with your audience on a deeper level. The impact neuroscience has on the words we write and why they convert. The psychology of why social proof works so well. What chemicals need to be released during the conversion process and in what order. Can you network as an introvert? Dealing with a scarcity mindset and making the shift to an abundant mindset. If you want to learn more about the psychology behind copywriting, be sure to tune into this episode. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Geoff’s website Geoff’s podcast Gabby’s website Episode 89 Episode 232   Full Transcript: Kira:  When you first started copywriting, you probably learned about creating a client avatar and all about storytelling, but what if you could take it a step further and tell stories that could make an even stronger impact? Our guest for the 268th episode of the Copywriter Club is Geoff Kullman. Geoff uses the power of neuroscience and psychology to create a deeper, more meaningful connection with people, and today I am joined by my co-host Gabby Jackson. How's it going? Gabby? Gabby:  It's going well. How are you? Kira:  Doing really well, Gabby. So you are on our team, we have had so many people in our audience asked to hear more about our team members, and I want to introduce you today just so everyone can get to know you a little bit better. So why don't you just kick off with how you heard about the Copywriter Club and what you do on the team? Gabby:  So, yes, I am super excited to be here. I discovered the Copywriter Club by wanting to find out more information about copywriting in general, and I was all about podcasts, still am all about podcasts, and I just typed in copywriting. This podcast was the first one to pop up, and I started binging episode after episode, and I decided I have to be part of this community, this club, how do I get in? Kira:  No, wait, when was that, Gabby? Gabby:  That was probably last August or September, yeah, so it's been a little over a year. Kira:  Yeah. I remember when we first met you in the underground on our first ... our meet and greet call with you, and we met you, and you just had such great energy that Rob and I were texting each other, we're like, "We have to figure out a way to get Gabby on our team so we can work with her." We were lucky enough that you joined the team, and so what do you do today on the team? Gabby:  So, on the team I handle a lot of the social media aspects, whether that mean graphics or captions, some email writing, podcast show notes and introductions, and some Pinterest tasks as well. Kira:  Yeah, and the cool thing about today is that Gabby actually works on these. We call them interjections, this is basically our commentary that we add to every episode, and Gabby and Rosie work on these every week. So Gabby, maybe you can give us some insight into how you put these together today, and to share your process real quick. Gabby:  Yeah. I love putting these together because I feel like I get an inside scoop before everybody else. So I'll listen through the interview, and I'm really just jotting down anything that sounds kind of intriguing to me. I feel like everybody on the team is a little bit the same in what we like to listen to, and copywriters in general so I'll write down anything that sounds interesting. Then I'll kind of lay it out in bullet points so that way it's easy for everybody to read, kind of go in through different points of the podcast, and then you all make your comments, and we'll kind of just go through and clean everything up, take out any extra language that maybe we don't need, and then- Kira:  All the ums. All the ums. Gabby:  Yeah, exactly. I wasn't going to say, but all the ums, and yeahs, or whatever it is, and then we'll go from there. Kira:  All right, so today's extra special that we have you here to talk through this interview with Geoff, since you worked on the background and put this all together. Before we jump in let's talk about our sponsor. Shockingly, this episode is sponsored by the Copywriter Club, the Copywriter Club In Real Life. We are so excited that this year we are able to get back to an IRL event in Nashville, Tennessee. We just signed the contract with the hotel, and so we finally have the dates. We can announce Sunday, the 27th, we'll kick off with our think tank retreat, and then we'll kick off the official event Monday the 28th, and run the 28th, the 29th, and then we will have a VIP event on the 30th. So we're so excited to get together in person because last year it was virtual, and this year it's all about seeing old friends and making new friends. Gabby, I'm just curious, because you've worked on the event behind the scenes, you were part of (N)IRL this past year, but just why are you excited to attend this year? What have you heard about it that makes you most excited? Gabby:  Oh, my gosh, I seriously continuously happy dance just because I'm excited to actually meet so many copywriters in person. I think that's the great thing about in person events is you can really just focus all your attention on the speakers, and the people that are there, there's no distractions. I think it's just going to be such a great time to leave the house, and be able to interact with so many people who are trying to grow their businesses too. Kira:  All right, so if you are listening and you have any interest in attending this event, or just learning more about it, you can jump to our website, go to the copywriterclub.com\tccirl-2022, or just check our show notes and click on the link. We'll have the link and the show notes of this episode so you can check out all the details about the event, and we can hopefully see you there this March. All right, now let's get into the episode. Geoff Kullman:  You know, I always loved writing. I was one of those kids, the more I say this to other people the more I feel less alone, and there's more of us copywriters who came up this way, who were this way as kids, but I was always the kid, the shy kid that hid behind my mom's leg. Whenever someone would try to talk to me I'd just cower behind her, find safety behind her, and it really wasn't ... whenever someone would try to talk to me I wouldn't have anything to say, and it wasn't until I got into school and discover this thing called reading and writing that I began to actually find a voice. I didn't basically ... I basically didn't speak until I was five years old, until I found that I could write what I was thinking. Later on in life I discovered or was told this line that words make worlds, which is basically what I was able to do. I didn't talk, but once I could write it out I would create these fantastic worlds where I was a hero, where everyone was lifting me up on their shoulders, where I'd win the game, and all that. So that love for writing started really, really, really early for me, and again, I feel like the more I talk about it, the more people say, "Yeah, me too," that that's something of a common denominator between us writers and copywriters. I took that love and enjoyment of writing, and basically then found a way to turn it into a career, in a roundabout way into a career. First, I became, believe it or not, a pastor. I was a youth pastor then a regular pastor, but what I always thought as was basically this unique way to create content that I always got to write and create content throughout the week. I got to hang out with people, and help people through life, and all that, and that was all good, but really what I loved was I got to investigate, and I got to write content multiple times a week, which then when I left the church because I no longer was a fit, I lost my faith and all that, that's a whole other story, but I found I still had this transferable skill to take me from that content creation piece that I loved. I could actually still do it outside of my old profession where I could now write for other people, tell their stories, help them get clear on that story that's going to draw their audience in. It seems like a weird progression, but it was a natural one to go from that church space into this copywriting space because those skills, those interests, and those things that I love were still highly transferable from one to the next. Rob:  I really like this idea, I've heard it before, but not in a while that you bring up the words make worlds. I'm curious as a kid, what were the worlds you were making? Tell us about one of them. How did you do that?

Amy Collins is our guest for the 267th episode of The Copywriter Club podcast. Amy is a storyteller and copy strategist who unveils the mystery of creating stories out of everyday events. By taking your conversation skills to the next level, you can craft better stories not just for yourself but for your clients. Win-win, right? We break it down like this: Amy Collins journey from the art of writing to the art of copywriting. How to work on referrals, so you don’t have to overload the cold pitches. Is it possible to perfect the art of conversation? And is it even a thing? How to get your clients to disarm themselves and enhance the conversation. The different ways you can niche in your business. Reframing your perspective on being in your ideal client’s inbox. Behind the scenes of a storytelling master’s process. Why open loops take your emails to a whole new level. The common mistakes copywriters make when telling stories in their emails and how to fix them. How you can play with language to take your reader on a journey. Tools you can use to become a better storyteller. When to use VOC data and how to blend it into your story. Using your past lives to add value to your copy. Why “should” needs to disappear from the English Dictionary. How to become aware of your negative self-talk. The active choice to invest in yourself and your business. Going against the status-quo and ridding yourself of the need for validation. Thinking about starting an email list but have no idea what you should write to them? This is a good place to start. Hit that play button below or check out the transcript. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Amy’s website Nic’s website Full Transcript: Rob:  When it comes right down to it, copywriting is a lot like having a conversation with your customers, or the customers of your client. And like any good conversationalist, that means that you can't afford to be boring. You have to stand out, engage the person you're talking to, and be interesting and interested. Our guest for this episode of the Copywriter Club Podcast is copy strategist and storyteller, Amy Collins. Amy shares how she's been able to have genuine conversations with her clients, and she gives us a few ideas for how we could all do better at this important skill. You're going to want to stick around for this one, but before we jump into the episode, my co-host for today is copywriter, voice strategist, and I just learned this a few seconds ago, trained as a radio announcer, Nicola Moors. Nic, welcome. Nic:  Hi, thanks so much for having me. Rob:  Yeah, I'm excited. I'm excited to have this conversation and have you share some of your takeaways. And of course, if anybody's been listening to the podcast for a while, they'll recognize that you were a guest on the podcast maybe a little over a half a year ago. If I remember, that was episode 200 and, what, 53. Nic:  Thirty-six. Rob:  236, 236. Nic:  Thirty-six. Rob:  Okay. Nic:  Yeah. Rob:  So, check out what Nic shared, and you shared a ton of really good stuff, your research process, how you were a journalist, and some of the crazy stories that you had to track down as a journalist. It's really interesting episode, good listen, and lots of good advice about brand voice. So, let people check that out. Nic:  Thanks. Rob:  And of course, this episode of the podcast is sponsored by... right now, today, it's sponsored by the Copywriter Accelerator. We're getting ready to relaunch the accelerator in January, so keep your eyes open for that. The accelerator is our 16-week program that helps copywriters some of them starting out, some of them who have been in business for years re-establish or create the foundation for their business. We talk about things like mindset and goal setting. We help you create packages, price them appropriately, figure out how you're going to show up in the world with your brand, how you work with clients, all of those things. And we've literally just reworked all of the content. So, we're excited to share this updated and revised version with the world. If you want to get on the wait list for that, go to thecopywriteraccelerator.com, and we'll send you more information as soon as that opens up. Okay, so we're going to jump into our interview that Kira did with Amy Collins and be back in a little while. Amy:  So officially, I got into copywriting about a decade ago. I was pursuing the art of writing in different elements. Some of that was journalism writing for a local magazine in Florence Alabama, where I was living at the time. Some of it was writing a blog, short true stories if you will, little essays. And then I needed money and journalism doesn't pay much, and blogging certainly doesn't pay. So, I just started talking to people around town who might need a writer to help them produce copy for various projects, and that's how I got into copywriting. And I think it started with working with the University of North Alabama College of Business, writing their newsletter and other things just came through various websites, blogs and that sort of thing. Kira:  Okay, and how did you find your clients along the way? Were you pitching clients? Were you reaching out to your network? How did that work? Amy:  Yeah, a lot of networking. And like I said when I got started, I was living in such a small town that I could just be out and about and see someone I knew and have a conversation and say, "Well, this is kind of what I'm doing." And they might have an idea for me and connect me with someone else. It's always been very organic for me in that way, and most of my clients I have found through referrals, through people that I've worked with before, or people I know who know what I can produce and would recommend me. And more recently, more referrals through fellow copywriters. So, I have not done a significant amount of cold pitching, but I guess initially I have, because I just start conversations with people and, "Hey, I could help you out here," and that sort of thing. Kira:  Yeah, maybe we could talk about that, the conversation because I think that's something that you do really well just from our conversations and where at least I don't think sales calls dawn to you. It seems like you're able to jump on with prospects and sell them on a variety of packages, and you can write a variety of different deliverables. And it seems to come so naturally to you to have that conversation, and have it turn into something much larger and often unexpected. Is there an art to that? Does that come naturally to you, or do you go in to those conversations with some strategy in mind? Amy:  It does come very natural to me. I feel like I've been perfecting the art of conversation since I was four and wandering across the street to the neighbor's house looking for interaction, right? But I have thought about this a lot, like what's the art to it? What can other people learn how to do? And I think I'm probably more extroverted than a lot of copywriters which I don't always identify with because I also appreciate a lot alone time, but I love people and I'm genuinely interested in people's stories, their experiences, how they live their lives, how they make their money. I'm very inquisitive in that way, and the truth is most people actually really enjoy talking about themselves. And if you give them an opportunity, they will share things with you. And for whatever reason, I think I have a demeanor that's disarming that people... I think that's the right word, that people feel comfortable talking with me, but I think for someone wanting to get more comfortable with that, always asking the other person questions. And it's a balance, because you don't want to get too personal. You don't want to come off as nosy or judgmental, but a genuine curiosity about a person's worldview can create connection very quickly. Kira:  Yeah. Well, maybe we could talk about that in the sense of let's say a sales call, and how you can shift that conversation, so that you are interested and you can connect easily with that person. And maybe understand their world view and ultimately turn that into a project where by the end of the caller like, "Yeah, I want to work with you." Is there a certain way to do it on a sales call versus other conversations you may have outside of that business space? Amy:  Yeah, I'm not sure I'd differentiate necessarily. Years ago, I was a sales rep for a wine wholesale company in New York City, and I remember once I was out with my manager. I think we were at dinner, and I was just having a conversation with the server. And he made a joke when the server walked away. He was like, "You're always working." I'm like, "I don't even realize what I'm doing. I'm just having a conversation with this person about their experience with wine and their opinion with wine," right? I think it's not a clear line between a discovery call or a conversation and a sales call, but the other thing I really learned in that job as a wine sales rep is to truly listen and to ask the questions to get down to what your prospect really needs, what they're really looking for. And that's often going to be questions that they may not know the answer to right away, but it brings up other ideas that you can start talking about and figuring out what's their philosophy, what is their worldview, what is their dream for their business. And they may not have that written down in a structured way and conversation helps them find that. And it helps me find where I can fit in and where I can help them. Kira:  And to figure out their world view, what are some questions you might ask to figure that out in a conversation? Amy:  Yeah, that's a really good question. Again,

Angie Colee is our guest for the 266th episode of The Copywriter Club podcast. Angie is a copywriter and copy chief turned business and confidence coach who took a while to find her way into the copywriting role she is the best fit for. No matter where you are in your copywriting journey, you’ll leave with notes filled front and back. Here’s what we talk about: How Angie went from working for the Oprah Winfrey network to underpaid copywriter. Do you have to have a degree to become a copywriter? Feeling stuck with projects and clients but using every project as a learning opportunity. How learning on the fly can make you a better writer. The power to walk away from toxic work environments and open the door to new opportunities. The different levels of copywriting. Where might you fit in? Shifting into a lead role and managing other copywriters. The difference between a full-time corporate copywriter and per project roles. Finding a team that respects your value, time, and expertise. How to deal with comparisonitis and feelings of not being where you think you should be. Why it’s a good idea to take on challenges before you think you’re ready. The importance of swallowing your pride as a writer and receiving criticism. Tips on being a better copy chief. How to look at what you can bring to big, successful businesses as a small business owner. Hint: Don’t assume you have nothing to bring to the table. Why you shouldn’t be intimidated by launching. Steps you can take to create stronger launch campaigns without exhausting yourself. How you can help others in copywriting communities even if you’re not an expert. The switch Angie made from copywriter to coach. Time management between clients, students, and your own business. How to get over writer’s block when the muse isn’t striking. The mindset blocks many face when they’re trying something new in their business. Hit the play button or check out the transcript below. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Angie's website The Well-Fed Writer by Peter Bowerman Mindset by Carol Dweck Episode 208 Full Transcript: Rob:  Becoming a great copywriter doesn't happen overnight. In fact, most of us have stumbled around a bit to get where we are. I spent time at a web startup and running my own SaaS business while Kira learned how to sell and clean cars at Enterprise Rental Service, she picked you up. So stumbling around a variety of jobs to find your way into copywriting is pretty common. But the good news? Through the missteps and the struggles, most of us finally arrive at something resembling a successful copywriting career, and our guest for this episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast is Angie Colee. Angie is a copywriter and a copy chief turned business and confidence coach who took a while to find her way into the copywriting role that she's the best fit for, and the advice that she shared in our interview is fantastic. We think you're definitely going to want to stick around to hear what she had to share. Kira:  But before we dive into this episode, TCCIRL is the sponsor of this episode. TCCIRL, our big event, our big annual event, is going back to in-person stage in 2022 and we couldn't be more excited. It's a two and a half day event where you get to connect and hear from other copywriters and marketers about the best tools and strategies you can use to grow your copywriting business and to enhance your own skills and mindset, and one of the best parts is connecting in real life with other copywriters that maybe you've bumped into online and you finally can connect in-person over lunch, over dinner, over coffee, over drinks. Tickets are limited and this is not like a faux scarcity thing. We actually have a venue that can only hold a certain amount of people so if you do want to attend this year, if you're missing hanging out in real life with fellow copywriters, grab your early bird ticket. Now is definitely the time to do that. Rob:  Yeah, I am so excited to get back in-person live with everybody. We were I think the last conference before the virus shut everything down and - Kira:  We were. Yeah. Rob:  It's going to be fun, so the event will take place on March 28th through the 30th. It's in Nashville, Tennessee and I'm not a tax expert but The Copywriter Club In Real Life likely qualifies as a business deduction for your taxes so it's a little bit like getting the government to pay you to come and hang out with us which is a pretty good deal. If you want to learn more or get your tickets, you can go to thecopywriterclub.com/tccirl-2022, that's 2022. Kira:  And Rob, we haven't seen each other since then, have we? Rob:  No. We haven't. Not in person. Kira:  I haven't seen you since March 2020. Rob:  So yeah, this might be the first time that we see each other in two years in person anyway, so ... Kira:  Weird, okay. Rob:  It's going to be good. But I mean, we've done this before. People come from all over the world, literally from Europe, from India, from Australia, and all over the United States and Canada. Even South America, it's just a great place - Kira:  D.C. Rob:  To build a killer network, so ... One or two people from D.C. All right, let's get into this episode. We started by asking Angie how she ended up as a copywriter. Kira:  Angie, we want to know everything about you. We want to know your story, we want to know how you ended up as a copywriter and now a confidence coach. Share the path please. Angie:  Hmm well, it's long and windy, so buckle up. I wanted to be a screenwriter. I really thought I was going to be like Shonda Rhimes, creating worlds, Grey's Anatomy, running things. I even worked for NBC Universal, CBS Films, Warner Brothers, TNT, TBS, like all of the majors. I was working down in Hollywood after I got my master's degree, and then I got laid off from The Oprah Winfrey Network. Don't hate Oprah though because it was in a moment of desperation after I got laid off that I remembered this one book from a random screenwriting class two years earlier called The Well-Fed Writer, and I still can't explain to this day what made me go spend $20.00 I didn't really have on a book at Barnes & Noble back in the day. Picked up this book, read it in an afternoon and thought, "I could probably do that," and then proceeded to stumble my way and fail my way forward into eventually this career. That's why you probably see that I'm a big proponent of you don't necessarily need a degree to become a copywriter. I quite literally fell into it and decided this was something I could do and every bit of experience, I took that and leveraged it into the next level up and to the next level up and eventually I was running teams and eventually decided I didn't want to necessarily be a copywriter anymore, I wanted to be a coach. Rob:  Okay, so what exactly were you doing for Oprah? Angie:  I was a digital production assistant, which is a fancy title for someone ... You know wen shows solicit videos from you for a contest and 500 million people submit a video? Someone on the other end has to go through all those videos. That was what I did for The Oprah Winfrey Network. Rob:  You also mentioned The Well-Fed Writer by Peter Bowerman. That's a great book by the way and we'll link to it in the show notes. But what specifically did that book help you to do? Angie:  Well, that's the funny thing. Like I tried just about every prospecting method that he suggested. I mean I did cold calling, I dropped flyers, I sent letters, I went to ... What is it, chamber of commerce meetings locally back when you could still meet with people. I joined online sites like Elance which I think is now Freelance.com but ... Or Upwork. Joined all those sites, I tried everything and just kind of slowly but surely found clients, like through the online platforms I wound up writing the production script for Miss Black USA Pageant for a few years in a row. I took any writing project that somebody would pay me for, and then just basically kept leveraging that slowly and surely towards direct response which was where I felt really called the more I learned about copywriting. Kira:  And roughly what is the timing of this because I know many copywriters look at you and they're like, "Hey, Angie is a top copywriter." So did this take ten years, did it take five years, less? Angie:  So, I got my master's degree in May of 2010. November of 2010 is when I decided to make a serious go at this business. Then I freelanced a little bit, largely unsuccessfully, with the help of generous unemployment funds until about April of 2012, which was when I got my first part-time junior role, and that was on the back of all of this freelance experience that I had just stumbled my way into, not knowing what I didn't know. Which I thought was pretty cool, so I got a good foundation for about a year and a half working there part-time and I hit a wall with that role. Like I really am just somebody that just wants to go fast and figure this thing out and I was feeling a little bit stifled. It was a good role, it taught me a lot, but I had a set number of blogs, a set number of emails, and as many product descriptions as I could fit into the remaining hours, and after a while, that just got to be boring. I love them, it was a fun team, I don't want to crap all over any opportunities, but ... So, I started applying for a full-time role. I found a hardware retail chain that was looking for a full-time copywriter. The interesting thing was the person that connected me to the job thought that I didn't have enough experience, and I pushed back on her and was like, "I disagree with you and here's why,

Daniel Throssell takes the mic on the 265th episode of The Copywriter Club podcast. Daniel is a copywriter who has created something he likes to call, “The Parallel Welcome Sequence.” He teaches his students how to look at storytelling from a different lens, and now he’s going to give you a glimpse into how he makes it happen. Here’s how the conversation breaks down: His grand escape from being an electrical engineer on a remote island. Winning a coaching call based on a story he wrote with no experience at all. How he was able to go from no experience to charging $200 an hour on Upwork. The Facebook message that would change the game for Daniel. How he managed to become the most-copied Upwork profile and how he gained 5 star reviews. Why he is so passionate about writing soap-opera-slash-personality-driven emails. The importance of partnership in copywriting. The difference between one off projects and growing with a business over time. The advantages of building your own list vs writing for a client list. How to get on more podcasts with this simple tip. The benefits of having a financial cushion when going after your dream business. How to test out your own launch ideas and analyze the results. How Daniel grew his list from 0-5000 in 18 months: what’s the secret? Why you should think about creating a welcome sequence from a different angle. The importance of staying consistent even when you think no one is listening. Why copywriters have an edge against other marketers and business owners. How to maximize and connect with your superfans. Shifting your business from client-focused to self-focused. Who should do a parallel welcome sequence? Pop your earbuds in or check out the transcript below. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Daniel’s website Laura Belgray interview part 2 Brandi Mowles podcast interview Connect with Robbie King  Full Transcript: Kira:  If you've ever said to yourself, "I want to get paid to be me," this is the interview for you. Today's guest for the 265th episode of The Copywriter Club podcast is Daniel Throssell. A copywriter who's not afraid to show his weird side and approach list growth and relationship building differently. But before we dive in, let me introduce you to my cohost for today, Robbie King. Robbie, welcome to the show. Thanks for doing this with me. Robbie:  Thanks very much for having me. It's lovely to be here. Kira:  I want you to just quickly introduce yourself, who are you, how do we even know each other? Robbie:  Yes. So, we met probably virtually about two and a half years ago, when I was just kind of scratching my head about copywriting. And remember, we had a bit of back and forth. And then pretty quickly I realized that signing up for The Underground, and then eventually The Think Tank was just going to be the best thing to get my business going and help stop me banging my head against the wall, I think. Kira:  And Robbie, what are you doing today? Robbie:  So today, I actually work in house for a tech marketing agency. That was after a good year and a bit of having my freelance business. I did that after a good few months of just learning the whole business side of running a copywriting business. I thought I'd balanced that out a bit by just, I guess learning on someone else's dime, there's a lot to be said for that. It's proven very useful. I've gone deeper into my skill set, into my niche, which is video and content consultancy. So, I've been doing a lot of that. And I'm still writing copy. So, it's been quite the journey. Kira:  I know you shared this with me earlier, but maybe you could just share that that idea came from Matt Hall at TCCIRL. Do you mind just sharing how you had that idea to go back in house? Robbie:  Yes. Shout out to Matt Hall. Great guy, great talk, TCCIRL 2020. He had a great take on spending time freelancing, and in house and the benefits of both, and how both environments have the pros and cons for one's education. And so, with that in mind, I thought that after a couple of years, freelancing would be a good idea to go in house. And, of course, in the back of my mind, I'm thinking, "Well, at some point, I may flip back to freelance." That's the exciting part, I guess. Kira:  Very cool. Well, let's jump in. Before we do that, of course, this episode of the podcast is sponsored by The Think Tank Mastermind. Robbie, as he said, is an alumni member of The Think Tank. So, Robbie, can you just share maybe what your experience was like in The Think Tank and the biggest benefit for you? Robbie:  Yes. So, I mean, I came to The Think Tank probably from a slightly different position to most people, my business was actually quite new. So, it was kind of the definition of moving fast and breaking things. I was just like, "Let's dive right in," and just surround myself with all kinds of really talented people. And I mean, firstly, it was just the perfect way to sort of face all your fears with a bunch of like-minded people all at once. When you're starting a copywriting business it can be a bit of a daunting thing, can be quite lonely. The Think Tank was anything but that obviously. For anyone who's ever done one of The Copywriter Club hot seats, it was kind of that on steroids in the sense that you just had this just laser focus from a bunch of different brains all offering you tips and gunning for you. Do I mean gunning for you? I think gunning for years is about... Anyway, God, I can't even talk about that. Kira:  We get what you're saying. Robbie:  They're in your corner. All the retreats and the hot seats that we did in The Think Tank were particularly memorable, just because every time we did one, I just came away with just a bigger brain and a whole lot more wisdom. Kira:  Well, thank you, Robbie for sharing that. And if anyone listening wants to learn more, you can go to copywriterthinktank.com. Now let's get into the episode. Daniel:  Well, I was originally an electrical engineer. I have a degree in electrical engineering, and I was working for Chevron on this tiny little island off the coast of Western Australia. You had to fly on this little dinky plane for two hours, it was rattling the whole time. And then you were there for four weeks in the red dirt and the heat, building this gas plant. There was no town or anything out there, it's a nature reserve. It really sucked. And while I was working out there on my four weeks at a time, 5:00 AM to 5:00 PM shifts, I used to follow Ramit Sethi, and his email list. And one day he had this contest, and he was launching his new copywriting course back then. And he's like, "Whoever writes the best sales letter for my course, I will send you my three favorite books on copywriting and we'll do a half hour chat about copywriting." I didn't know what the heck, I'd never heard the word copywriting. I didn't know it had a sense other than copy and paste. But I was like, "Well, I like Ramit. I've seen how he writes emails and his sales pages, and I've even bought stuff from him, so I'm sure I can do that." But because I didn't really know what you were supposed to do, I didn't go with the whole... There was some people entering that contest, and I saw the entrance and they're like, "Here's how to 2X, 5X, or even 10X your business with the power of copy." And I was reading their entries and I was like, "Oh man, I'm going to lose." Because I just told this story about how I convinced my wife to let me buy one of Ramit's books for 200 bucks. I just told that story. And I was like, "Ah, I'm going to get so smashed," and then he picked my copy as the winner of that. And he was like, "That was better than most professional copywriters I've ever seen." And I was like, "Yeah, it's the first time I've ever written copy." And he's like, "What? What are we going to talk about on this call?" I was like, "I don't know, can you tell me how to start as a copywriter?" So, he gave me some advice, some books to read. And after that, I jumped into Upwork. I had heard of Upwork and I thought I'd try my hand there. I bought a course on doing Upwork and I ended up having some good success. In the next nine months or so, I went from literally having no experience there and I went to charging $200 an hour. I was one of the most expensive writers there, making some of the most money. And people were ripping me off, my profile and everything because I was doing so well. Around that time, my reputation got around, and I got contacted by a guy called Scott Pape, who back then was fairly well known. But he reached out to me. And he said, "Hey, I need some help writing copy for a book I'm about to launch." And so, he brought me on to write the launch funnel for that book. And that ended up being the best-selling book in Australian history. It's called the Barefoot Investor. So that was the start of a kind of a wild ride working with him for the next five or so years. And I still infrequently do things with him. But I helped him manage his investment newsletter and his email business, which was huge. So, I learned a whole lot from him until 2020 when basically I kind of struck out on my own, started building my own email list and doing my own thing. And that's basically the story of how I got to today in a nutshell. Rob:  So, let's go all the way back to the red dirt island, nature preserve. I'm curious, you're an engineer, what's going on that makes you not want to be an engineer. Most people would say, "Hey, engineering is a great career, good money, good opportunities." And you trade that in for a life of freelance, what's going on? Daniel:  Man, oh, the money was great, because they pay you a good bonus to be away from your home for four weeks at a time. I should say,

Ahfeeyah C. Thomas is our guest for the 264th episode of The Copywriter Club podcast. Ahfeeyah is a serial entrepreneur who teaches business owners how to grow their teams, so they can scale to 6 and 7 figure businesses. If you’ve been wondering how you can scale your business or become a better leader, tune into the episode. How a resume writer became a successful CEO. How to navigate entrepreneurship with a love for the corporate sector. The better way to write your resume to land the job. Why you need to improve your job descriptions to attract the right candidates. Lessons from Harvard you can use in your own business. How to build team productivity and why you need an organizational chart. The core system Ahfeeyah uses to help her clients scale their businesses. Is it ever too soon to hire? How a virtual assistant or social media manager will help your business. Mistakes business owners are making and how to fix them. The scalable CEO model: How does it work? How we can become better leaders through learning about ourselves and the people we hire. How to know when you’re becoming a bottleneck in your own business. The different types of leadership and why it’s always a good idea to lead with empathy. How to shift your mindset and step into your CEO role. Steps to take to knock the fear of growing a team. Combining a quality client experience with quality deliverables. How to ask for feedback and why you need to take the emotions out of it. Navigating perfectionism and procrastination… How do we get out of the cycle? Do creatives experience the fastest burnout? Debating about hiring your first contractor or want to implement better systems? Grab your headphones or check out the transcription below. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Ahfeeyah’s website Hiring and Working with a VA with Hillary Weiss The Ins and Outs of Creating a Microagency with Jamie Jensen 21 laws of leadership by John C. Maxwell   Full Transcript: Kira:  Running your own business is hard enough. There are countless tasks you need to carry out. And sometimes it can just feel like way too much. What needs my attention first? Should I hire someone to help? And if so, who should I hire? Well, if you're growing your business, you're not alone. Ahfeeyah C. Thomas joins us to talk about how to hire a team and become a scalable CEO on the 264th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. Rob:  Before we dive into our interview with Ahfeeyah, this episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast is sponsored by The Copywriter Accelerator. And if you're listening, you might be thinking, "Well, wait a second, The Accelerator's not even open, why are you even talking about this?" And it's because we're making a few changes to The Accelerator the next time we do open. And if you've been thinking about joining this program, there's never been a better time to join the waitlist. So, you make sure that you get notified when it opens up for new members early next year. And when it comes to those changes, a couple of things that we're doing is going through all of the content. We're not necessarily saying that the old content was bad. We're just saying we're updating it with newer information. We're adding in better frameworks to make it more understandable and improving the blueprints that help you put all of the advice and ideas and strategies into action so that you come out of the other end of The Accelerator with a business that is just ready for rocket ship growth or whatever it is that your goal is for your copywriting business. So, if you want to be on the waitlist that you can hear about those changes and be notified of the new Copywriter Accelerator program or what it becomes, go to thecopywriteraccelerator.com and join the waitlist. Kira:  Let's begin with Ahfeeyah's journey. Ahfeeyah:  The honest question is I feel like it was a combination of just allowing myself to operate within my passion, operate within my purpose and allow the journey to be what it needed to be. So for me, it didn't start with business coaching. I started out actually as a resume writer at the age of 18 years old was my very first business and I was writing resumes for $40. Now, obviously the prices went up since then, but at the time that's what it was. And so naturally the passion behind that was that I wanted to help women and minorities be able to get paid for what they love to do. And so, at the time my vision was, if I can rewrite their resumes, then I would be able to help them to get into positions that paid them more and that they were passionate about. And so that started that way. I gained my coaching certification through the International Coaching Federation, became a career coach and then always found a love between corporate and the business arena. And so I'm found myself working back and forth, being a career coach and then also working in the corporate sector, helping employees improve their professional development and so forth. And so that led to being a career coach, helping people with their professional development, and then there were women that was in the corporate arena that I came across that wanted to become business owners. And so I was helping them to ultimately level up and move from their corporate space to the business space. And that was the birth of becoming a business coach and helping people strategically grow their brands. So yeah, that's the backstory of all of that, and I'm sure we'll dive in a little bit more on the design piece and what came after that. Kira:  Okay. Let's go back to your resume writing experience at the age of 18. So much of that is around positioning and how to position yourself best for the job. What did you learn if you learned anything from that experience that's helped you understand how to brand clients and how to position clients, and how to position yourself and your business? Ahfeeyah:  That's another great question and there's always a lesson. From that, what I was learning even then was that how you position yourself, how you brand yourself matters. Because especially in the dance society that we are in, you only have a short period of time to be able to capture someone's attention, to be able to also tell your story. And so when it was resume writing, it was me helping my clients, my students at the time be able to market themselves, we are our personal brands. So, I was able to help them to market themselves, and now as a brand growth strategist and creative director, I'm able to help companies go from being a business, designers, copywriters, go from being creative and really take their brand to the next level. So the message has carried through that you only have a short period of time to capture your audience and how you brand yourself will determine a lot of times the opportunities that will be lined up for you. Kira:  And I know this is going back a little bit, but do you have any examples of how you did that for your clients with their resumes so they would grab attention instantly and you were just like, "You know what, if I make this change to your resume, you will instantly grab attention"? Ahfeeyah:  Yes, yes. An example would be clients would come to me their resumes, and there was kind of a cookie cutter way that they were told they needed to do their resumes, or they needed to write their resumes. And so what I would do is I would teach them that they needed to take a look at the job description. They needed to figure out what the employer was asking for, and then ultimately customize that resume towards that job description. And it's so funny, because again, we'll talk about this a little bit later. But in my program now, I'm taking all of my experience, even when we talk about professional development and teaching now on the business owner's side of it how they need to write job description so that they can attract the right candidates. So it's full circle. But in that example, once my clients were able to look at the resume, look at the job description and match it up, the employers were a lot more likely to call them because they were finding exactly what they needed within the resume. And that let them know that the person that was applying was a qualified candidate. So simple tweaks, simple changes that we would make would allow them to be more, I guess, visible, be more attracted to employers by making those small changes. Kira:  Can you share the lessons you learned from working in HR at Harvard that would help us or could help us as small business owners today? What we could pull from your work there that we may not think of or just be familiar with in our businesses, but we could benefit from? Ahfeeyah:  A lot that I learned, and I speak about this often is that when we're in corporate, there are so many systems and structures, strategy that is around us that we oftentimes don't notice. So being an HR and overseeing and managing the hiring process, what I found is that we don't carry that again over into our business. So are we writing the job description? In HR, there are a number of steps that that job description goes through before it is approved. And that includes assessing what the needs of the company, what the needs of the department are. And so, we want to be doing the same things within our business in assessing what are my current needs? What are my current pain points in my business to really direct the hiring process? That's one of the things that is a lesson. And as we look at now, moving over into building that team or elevating the team that we do have once we hire them is how our team meetings being conducted. Are they productive? Does your team understand the vision and the mission? When we're in corporate,

Rachel Ngom is our guest for the 263rd episode of The Copywriter Club podcast. Rachel is a Pinterest Strategist and Expert who teaches her clients how to utilize Pinterest to build their pipeline of leads. She plans to retire by 40 and has made investments and an action plan to make it happen. Here’s how the conversation breaks down: How Africa changed Rachel’s life for the better. How Rachel built a 6-figure business with -$400 and a new baby. The reality of selling on social media and the pivots that come along the way. Getting 1.8 million people to find your blog by utilizing Pinterest. Growing your list to 20k and having to pivot again and again. Living the digital nomad lifestyle while running multiple successful businesses. How to make investments from a profitable business. Why you absolutely need to put yourself in uncomfortable positions repeatedly. Building the courage to do the basic things in life when you’re in a different country and culture. How to visualize your success and take action. Taking your life lessons and translating them into your current business and lifestyle. Consistency. Is it really necessary? The secret to building up personal discipline and the perfect morning routine. How to do with what you have. Why everyone can and should be using Pinterest as a lead generation tool and SEO platform. Mistakes you could be making on Pinterest and how to fix them. The systems and processes needed to run a multiple 6-figure business. Why you need to start teaching duplication with your team. How to shift your mindset around failure. The right time to invest in other businesses, so you can set yourself up to retire young. How to know an idea is worth pursuing. If you need inspiration around investments, retiring, or where your next lead is coming from, this is the episode to tune into. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Rachel’s website Ask by Ryan Levesque Pinterest Cheatsheet Annie's website Episode 87 Episode 21 Full Transcript: Kira:  Build the business, scale the business, run the business on autopilot, and retire by 40. No biggie. That's a dream for many business owners. But how does it actually happen? What steps or events need to take place to make it a reality? Well, we'll dive into all the steps in today's 263rd episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast with Rachel Ngom. Rachel is a Pinterest marketer and serial entrepreneur. During this interview, we talk about how to use Pinterest for lead generation, how to pivot your business, and how to get really uncomfortable in your life and business. I'm joined today by my co-host and Think Tank alumni member, Annie Bacher. Annie, thank you so much for co-hosting with me today. Can you just kick it off with just a quick intro, if anyone hasn't heard your interview on the podcast which is episode 218. So we can all check out, revisit your interview on the podcast. But can you just provide a quick intro? Who are you, Annie? Who are you? Annie:  Thanks, Kira. So I'm Annie. I am a B2B SaaS copywriter. And I am obsessed with using copy to help tech companies make the internet a friendlier and more human sounding place. Kira:  All right. Well, thanks for joining me today. And before we dive in, this episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast is sponsored by the Think Tank. Annie as a former member of the Think Tank, can you share just what type of impact the mastermind had on your business and your life? Annie:  Oh, where to start? Well, I didn't call myself a B2B SaaS copywriter before I joined the Think Tank. I didn't have a lot of focus, and I honestly didn't even know it was possible for me. So since being in the Think Tank for a year, I hit six figures in my business, I started building a team, and I've been working with clients I never would have dreamed I could work with like ConvertKit, Pitch, and some other well-known SaaS companies. Kira:  All right. Well, thanks, Annie for sharing that. And let's kick this off and find out where Rachel's journey began. Rachel:  I like to call myself an accidental entrepreneur. So I lived in Africa for a while, moved back and got my master's in social work. And when I graduated, I went to the top program in the country and I couldn't find a job even with my master's. And my husband was starting a brand-new business, we had a brand-new baby. We ended up broke on food stamps, negative $400 in our checking account. And I was like, "All right. So what are we going to do? Got to figure something out." And I was a part of a network marketing company at the time, and I saw other people having success. And I was like, "If they can do it, I can do it, I got to figure it out." So, I failed forward, failed a lot, and eventually really understood how to use social media to grow that business back in 2012, 2013. And created a six-figure business within two years. And that was primarily in the beginning using Facebook and Instagram. I had 50,000 followers on Facebook, 20,000 on Instagram, and back then it was so easy to post, and get comments, and make sales. I would get thousands of comments on some post. It was awesome. Then the algorithm changed. And I was like, "Oh, got to figure something out." That's the life of an entrepreneur. You got to pivot and figure something out because nothing is going to last or work forever. So, I moved to my blog and Pinterest, and I just started creating content, and putting stuff up on Pinterest, and I did not have an elaborate strategy or anything like that. But I was like, "We'll just see what happens." And I noticed my traffic was increasing, and I was like, "Where are these people coming from? Is Facebook working again?" I looked at my Google Analytics, and I had 34,000 people every month coming to that blog from Pinterest. And since then 1.8 million people have been on that blog, which is crazy. And so my email list was growing. I had 20,000 subscribers on my email list from Pinterest. And I started teaching my network marketing company, people on my team and other teams how I was using Pinterest to grow that business. And that company restructured. Again, nothing lasts forever. My income was cut in half, and I was left thinking, "Okay. I'm an entrepreneur, but I'm not in control." The company is in control because they made the switch from DVDs to digital, and I was working harder and harder and harder, and still nothing was working. And so I was like, "I have to do something on my own." So I hired a business coach. Couldn't afford it but figured it out. And she helped me see Pinterest was my sweet spot of this is how it can really serve entrepreneurs that are struggling on Facebook and Instagram that need to generate new leads and sales on autopilot, and I can teach them how to do that. So we launched Pin with Purpose. That's my program. I'm teaching entrepreneurs how to generate leads through Pinterest, and we've had over 2,000 students go through that program. And it has been wild to see them triple their sales in 60 days. And it's been a lot of fun. We've had the freedom. We lived in France for two years. We lived in Senegal the first six months of this year. My husband is coming back from Senegal today, I'm so excited. And we've been able to take money from this business and then invest into other businesses. So my husband has been in Senegal setting up a chicken coop. We bought land, and doing car rentals, and all kinds of things with the plan to retire by 40. So that's the story in a nutshell. Rob:  And thank you for joining us for the podcast. That was an awesome episode. Okay. You covered a lot of ground there. And we definitely want to come back to, for sure, Pinterest, all the things you're doing to retire before 40. But before we do that, I'm curious what took you to Africa in the first place? Before all of this started, how did you end up there? Rachel:  Good question. So I played volleyball in college at the University of Illinois. I was on a full-ride scholarship. And it was there that I became a Christian. And I was at this... We had all campus worship, and I was at worship. And it was like this Holy Spirit moment of God being like, "You need to go to Africa." And I was like, "Huh, how is that going to work? I don't know anybody on the continent. I play volleyball, I can't take more than a week off." And it was all these things fell into place of, I met my professor who intimidated the crap out of me. And I never would have gone to talk to her if my grandfather hadn't passed away. And she thought I was a dumb athlete that was lying to get out of taking the midterm. So I had a meet with her. And she was like, "What do you want to do? You're getting your degree in sociology, you're never going to get a job." And I told her I wanted to join the Peace Corps, and she was like, "I can get you an internship in Africa." And I was like, "Huh. Okay. But I play volleyball, how is that going to work." And at that time I actually got injured. I tore a cartilage in my ribcage that never healed. And so I was able to take six months and live in Kenya, and it completely transformed my life. I came back, I finished college, and then I wanted to go back to Africa and work on my French. And I chose Senegal, and that's where I met my husband. Took him back to America with me, and we've been all over the world since we've been married for 11 years now. I think we've moved 10 times in the past 11 years. It's been wild. And yeah, so that's what took me to Africa in the first place. Kira:  Let's talk about those lessons from Kenya, and the life changing six months, what were some specific lessons you learned that may show up in your business today? Maybe you go back to those moments and think about it.

On the 262nd episode of The Copywriter Club podcast, we’re joined by Jacob Suckow. Jacob is a Funnel and Launch Strategist who helps his clients sell their products on autopilot. From filling up your lead pipeline to creating products and services that sell, this episode is filled with useful advice you can implement into your business. Here’s what we talk about: How Jacob went from working with the Seattle Seahawks to working in cookie dough sales. The method Jacob used to grow cookie dough sales from 25k to 4 million in a matter of a few years. How a pivot landed him working with companies like McDonald's and Disney. The moment he realized he needed to be his own boss. Creating a pipeline to keep clients rolling in. Why building your network is your greatest funnel resource. Switching roles from freelancer to strategist. What’s the difference? How Jacob reverse-engineered how to make 100k a year without working 80 hours a week. Why letting go of clients will benefit your business and help it grow. The kind of clients that make for high-income months. Is there a mindset trick behind making six figures? How to fill your pipeline with ‘ready to go’ clients. What 15-minute connections can do for you and your business. The steps to building a solid network. Why you should build an audience even if you have nothing to sell. The key to being loud in your industry. How to create offers that people want to buy. What’s the method to the madness? Where do offers go wrong and how can they be fixed? The upside to being able to create your own offers. Tune into the episode by hitting the play button below or check out the transcript. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Jacob’s website Kickass Copywriting by Jacob Carlton Skip the Line by James Altucher   Full Transcript: Kira:  When you're still learning the ins and outs of your business, the last thing you want to worry about is where your next lead is coming from. We'd prefer a lengthy line, kind of like the line outside the Apple store when Apple released the new iPhone 13. That's the kind of line we want, filled with dream clients just waiting to work with you. Our guests for the 262nd episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast gives us the lowdown on lead generation so we can create a demand for our copywriting services and hopefully never stress over finding clients again. Our guest, Think Tank member Jacob Suckow, is a copywriter and launch strategist who skyrocketed his business within months by creating a full pipeline of leads. But before we jump in, I'd like to introduce my co-host for today's episode, TCCIRL speaker, "two-peat" speaker at TCCIRL and then a podcast guest from way back, Episode 13, long time ago, conversion copywriter, funnel optimizer and growth ecosystem designer, Sam Woods. Thanks for being here, Sam. Sam:  Thanks for having me, Kira. It's good to be speaking with you. Kira:  Yeah, I'm excited to co-host this with you. Before we jump in, though, can you just share a quick update of what you've been up to over the last few months in your business? Sam:  Yeah. It's a mixed bag of things. Over the past year or so, taking a step back and only worked on a handful of more in-depth projects. I think either you're a copywriter and you do a lot of smaller projects or you do a few big projects or maybe you have a mix. But for me, it's been only a few handful of deeper projects with various companies. It's still with copywriting, still optimizing different ways that they're acquiring customers and been working on some barge campaigns. So it's been nice. It's been a nice break from the smaller type projects, nice to set those aside and deep dive into a few things. I think I prefer the mix. It's nice to go back and forth. Kira:  Yeah. When you say bigger projects, do you mean in terms of not only deliverables, but length of time you're working with clients or are you working with them for six months to a year in this capacity? Sam:  Yeah, pretty much. Bigger scope in terms of what the project is, the pieces involved and also, the length of time for however long you work with them. For me, with the projects, a few projects that I worked on, they're probably 10 to 12 months long projects, I would think, about on average what they've been like. It's been nice. Kira:  Okay, cool. Sam:  Okay. Well, before we jump into Jacob's interview, Kira, let's hear a word from our sponsor. Kira:  It's me again, I am a sponsor. Actually, our Think Tank Mastermind is our official podcast sponsor. The Think Tank is our private mastermind of copywriters and other marketers who want to take massive action inside their businesses. Whether that's taking on bigger clients or creating new offers within their own businesses, our Think Tankers have been able to take massive leaps within months of joining. If you want to find out more about this mastermind experience, go to copywriterthinktank.com. Sam:  All right. Well, let's dive into this episode and find out how Jacob started his journey. Jacob:  So, it's a long journey and I'll try and shorten it so we don't lose anybody here. But it all started with a desire to be a chiropractor, actually. About seven years ago, at this point, I think it's what I was going to school for. Was a degenerate for two years, even though that's not a major. But after diving in really hardcore into the medical profession and wanting to own my own business, that's what I thought I wanted to do, got hooked up with a great doc, got an internship at the Seahawks. It was really cool stuff and worked at it for about eight months and found out I absolutely hated it. At that point, I had been working with a close friend of mine for a little while who was actually starting an edible cookie dough company. Yeah. And he asked me, he said, "I don't really have a job title, but I'd love to have you on full-time to do something and sales and marketing. Do you want to do it?" and I said yes and hopped in and took on all of the awful, ugly jobs alongside building out our econ channel, as well as breaking into wholesale, did some really big scale, B2B sales and things along those lines for about two years. It was a ton of fun. We grew from doing like 25K to a couple of million a year in like four years and my daughter was born and traveling all the time for different conferences, different meetings. It was way too much. And so, next pivot is an HR SaaS company out of Chicago and they're doing really great things in something similar. Apparently, I can't say no to a indiscreet job offer because there are deals that they wanted to make a pivot in who they were selling to and how they were doing it and they needed somebody to take on handling the messaging, as well as starting to build out a small team to do the actual outbound sales. I said, yes. We saw a lot of success there. Brought on some big clients like Boeing, McDonald's, Disney, closed like 400-500,000 in that first couple of months and it was a ton of fun. And then about eight months into that, I realized that I'd started to hate that too. I turned it inward and said, "Well, Jacob, maybe the problem is you. Maybe you're just not employable." Now, I got a little bit of a laugh out of it, but I was starting to get a little bit restless. I was getting on edge and angry and just not who I really wanted to be for myself and for my family. So I decided to really look back and think introspectively and say, "Okay, if I wanted to do something on my own, what skills do I have right now where I could freelance, I could consult, I could start to build out some products on my own?" The thing that I've always loved is sales, is marketing, is creating messaging. The thousands of people can understand and enjoy and see much, to get some help no matter what the product is. I read Gary Halbert's book, The Boron Letters, and that was my first foray. And I said, "Okay, cool. I'm 100% on board with this thing." I'd been familiar with copywriting from before we used to, it was funny enough, we used to go to trade shows and we'd collect a bunch of emails and a bunch of different contact names like everybody else does. Except after the show, everyone who was on our list would get some very John Carlton-esque semi-aggressive, a little bit pushy, very funny, a little bit raunchy type newsletter sent over like two weeks. We actually did pretty good with it. We'd have ice cream shops, pizza parlors, any other kind of small restaurant you could think of ordering from us left and right, just from this quick automated email campaign. Leaning into that, it was really cool to see those numbers start to come up as well as anything with our econ. I thought that I could pull it off. I leaned in for the last three or four months that I was at my job and matched my salary and then I decided to leave full time last November and I've been doing it since then. I had a great first month that was insanely unsustainable and since then, ran into copy hackers and have found your guys' community, copy chiefs too. Since then, it's just been a focus on marketing strategy, funnels and copywriting and not turning back. Rob:  Jacob. I've got lots of questions about all of that first, what's your favorite flavor of edible cookie dough? Jacob:  Yeah, no question. It's something that we called Monster. It was chocolate chip, oatmeal, peanut butter and coconut and it's the best cookie I've ever had in my damn life. I will fight anyone who thinks otherwise. It's amazing. If you haven't had anything like that, you can make it yourself. You can go find out and buy it, but it's a problem. Rob:  All right, I'm going to have to track some of that down. And then you referred to the email campaign,

We’re talking all things multi-passionate projects on the 261st episode of The Copywriter Club podcast with Annabel Landaverde. Annabel is a Launch Copywriter who doesn’t let big dreams scare her away from taking action. If you’ve ever thought to yourself, “I can't take on something new because I’m already doing so many things,” then this is the episode for you. Here’s how it breaks down: When your dream job doesn’t meet your expectations. How finding a group of like-minded people can spark new passions. Can sales and empathy go hand in hand? How to connect with your ideal client and meet them where they’re at. Is it all about sales? – How to be clear and ethical when someone isn’t a good fit. The ins and outs of internal branding and marketing for large companies. Maintaining a full-time job and building a freelancing business. How morning routines and monthly check-ins keep you on track. Do we only complete 10 projects in a lifetime?! What goes into creating a 7-figure launch. The first piece of copy needed when creating a launch plan. How you can go from copywriter to launch strategist. What copywriters can do to make their client launches more successful. Where you should start when e-commerce business is on your mind. How to deal with the little voice in the back of your head. Creating practices that will keep your big goals alive. When your ideas seem to be circling you, be sure to tune into this episode. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Influence by Robert Cialdini Start Finishing by Charlie Gilkey Annabel’s Instagram Annabel’s website Episode 234 with Linda Perry Episode 241 with Daniel Lamb Episode 70 with Joe Schriefer       Full Transcript: Kira:  The great thing about tapping into your entrepreneurial side as a copywriter is you can control your career and fate. You can grow and evolve personally and professionally over decades. You can chase any vision, as long as you don't lose sight of it. Today's guests for the 261st episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast is Think Tank member, Annabel Landaverde. Annabel is a clear example of a multi passionate copywriter and entrepreneur who doesn't let big dreams or goals scare her away from building her dream eCommerce business. Rob:  Before we jump into our interview with Annabel, which is much better than last week's interview with our guest, this podcast is sponsored by the Copywriter Think Tank. That's our mastermind for copywriters and other marketers who want to think outside the box and build new offers or revenue streams into their business. There's a couple of reasons that I like the Think Tank. Number one, you're surrounded by a bunch of other ambitious copywriters, doing copywriter E-things. Not just copywriters though, marketers and experts trying to grow businesses using copywriting as a superpower. Number two, it's built around your goals. A lot of times with masterminds you join, the person that's leading the mastermind has a specific way that they built their business and they teach everybody to do that same way. That's not how the Think Tank operates. We focus on your goals and what you want to achieve, and then figure out how best to get there. Number three, if you joined the Copywriter Think Tank you get everything included in the Copywriter Club, including free ticket to the event that we'll be talking about in the very near future next year in Nashville. If you want more information about the Copywriter Think Tank, go to copywriterthinktank.com Kira:  Okay, let's dive into the episode and find out how Annabel started her journey. Annabel Landaverde:  It was a windy road, I definitely didn't graduate college thinking, "Oh, direct response." In fact, I graduated college with a political science degree and thought that I was going to go government or nonprofit. What I ended up doing actually was becoming an admission counselor for my alma mater. I didn't know it at the time but that was my first introduction to direct sales, really, because what I did was, I would recruit nationally. I'd go to different high school fairs or just high school or college fairs and meet with kids and tell them why, Gustavus Adolphus College is where I went in Minnesota, was a great place to go. Then, I would guide them through the application process. Through that, I was learning email marketing, I was learning face to face sales and then as soon as people decided, they got the financial aid package, they tried to figure out what's the right choice, then it's really closing the deal. I did that for about three years, which took me to my next spot in San Francisco, which was working as a digital marketing associate for the World Affairs Council. I thought it was my dream job. Again, I was a pol-sci major and here I was, basically leading all the digital communications for this international nonprofit and come to find out, I just dreaded it and that was my first time experiencing what I thought was a dream job. I was downtown San Francisco. I was working with all these touring artists ... well, authors who were like ex-journalists, ex-government employees and I was like, "You know, this really isn't what I thought it would be." It's not as exciting and it just didn't light me up anymore. At the time, I was in a long distance relationship. That relationship brought me to Austin, where I ended up leading communications for Whole Foods Market's newest nonprofit called Whole Cities Foundation. Again, dream job scenario and I was able to really lead the branding there. It was internally focused, so that meant that I was really mostly focused on working with employees of Whole Foods Market and getting them aware that there was this new foundation and how they can get involved but I wasn't putting to practice external marketing, right? It was really putting the foundation, communication plan together and really getting it out to an internal audience, but what I wanted to dip my toes into next was, how do I really grow this and get foundation money from the outside world. So, at this time, again, I was in Austin, Texas, I started going to, by chance, a networking event called the Internet Marketing Party. I say it's by chance because I happen to live in the same apartment complex as the person who was running the event. His name is David Gonzalez. My boyfriend was holding a book, which I highly recommend you read, called Influence by Robert Cialdini and David goes, "You look like you might be in marketing because of the book you're reading. I run this club, you should come," and it has been a game changer for me because what the Internet Marketing Party does is it brings together entrepreneurs, honestly, from all walks of life and people will fly into the event too and they'll bring a speaker on stage to talk about whatever expertise they have and then you get to network afterwards. So it like kind of cuts the ice of just going blind into a networking event, like you actually have a training to go to and then you can talk about that. That's really where I first discovered direct response copywriting. I had been in the world of branding, of communications, of really being a generalist. The Internet Marketing party really opened my eyes to what does it mean to be in direct sales online, right? I had some face to face experience and I had ... prior to going to college I actually used to sell Cutco. So that's how I paid for my first year of college, was basically going door to door selling knives, totally. I was able to really channel what I had learned from Cutco, what I had learned from being an admission counselor and really bringing empathy into sales to you. I think that's one of the things that I learned as an admission counselor, is you're listening for what people want and then you're also seeing, is this a good match, right? It's one thing to be able to do that when you're in a face to face conversation but what I learned with copywriting is to be able to do that even when there's no face to face interaction. Even if it's just you listening to someone, by doing research, listening to what their pain points are, listening to what their desires are and really being able to speak to that online to move them to move, action. Rob:  Okay. Yeah, so I've written down like six different questions that I want to ask or six different things I want to ask about. I want to go all the way back to like that first job because it's really intriguing to me, selling kids, 17, 18, 19 year olds on going to a college, it's maybe not a name brand, it's not Stanford or it's not Harvard, or whatever. So obviously, that takes some serious persuasion. Tell us a little bit more about ... and maybe you started getting into this when you were mentioning empathy, but tell us a little bit more about how you did that, how did you connect with them to convince them to come to a place that's pretty dang cold? It's not USC. It's not Florida. How do you get them to make that choice and sell them on something that's maybe not as good as some of the alternatives, at least in their minds is not as good? Annabel Landaverde:  Yeah, well, I think the biggest thing was I believed in the product and I believed in my experience there. I mean, one lesson is to just only ever take on work that you believe in, like the product is great and you can easily sell it because it doesn't actually even feel like selling at that point. You're really sharing your experience and why it's been life-changing for you. So my background, I totally ... like I'm one of the rare kids who is like, I'm moving to this college, sight unseen, sign me up. I had grown up in San Francisco and I just wanted something completely different. I was thinking about going to school on like ... well,

Mentors. You look up to them and admire how they can help you, but have you ever wondered… “who are they in real life?” For the 260th episode of The Copywriter Club podcast, Rob Marsh is the interviewee, and he shares answers ranging from lessons in business to his go-to self-care routine. Ready to check out the inner workings of Rob Marsh? How to navigate when business moves slower. The skill of generating big ideas. Is it innate? Analyzing your time and productivity. Are you trying to do too much? Does Rob ever struggle with writing copy? – Or is he a copy magician? The inside scoop on Rob’s best and worst clients. Raising teens and knowing when to run. The lessons you can learn from your parents and how it applies to your business. Rob’s self-care routine. What Rob hopes to do better in the next year. What is Rob Marsh’s X-factor? Rob’s advice for the introverted copywriter. Why you need to send yourself a check for 1 million dollars. Money mindset and unlearning things from childhood. How did Rob become a reading fiend? Breaking news: Rob the romantic?! One of the best business books Rob has read. Listen to the episode with your favorite earbuds or read the transcript with your favorite eyes. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground The Road Less Stupid Ready, Fire, Aim Full Transcript: Kira:  Hi Rob. Rob:  This is uncomfortable, I have to admit, to have you interviewing me. Obviously, we've done, I don't know, 200 and almost 70 episodes of this podcast and got to admit, I don't love being interviewed on my own podcast for some reason. Kira:  Yeah, well, it's almost like you don't trust me. Rob:  Maybe that's what it is. That's probably what it is. Wow, 28 seconds in and we've nailed it. We know exactly what's the problem here. Kira:  I mean, we've had five years together in business and 270 episodes, but you still don't trust me. I don't know what else I have to do. Rob:  Yes, I'm going to have to think about that. That's a question I don't think I can answer right now. Kira:  All right, so today's going to be fun, fun for me, not fun for Rob. We decided to, well, we didn't decide, I think I decided that I was going to interview you. Rob:  No, you decided. This was not a mutual decision. Kira:  Yes, just like our underwater pool photoshoot a couple of years ago. So, today, we are going to get to know Rob better. And I'm asking questions based off what I would like to know about you, Rob. And so, you can share some of your wisdom with us, and also, just some personal tidbits here and there just so we can get to know the real Rob Marsh a little bit better. Rob:  And I think, if anybody's listening, they're like, "Wait a second, I think I'd rather get to know the real Kira Hug better 10 episodes," we'll be back and we're going to do this all the other way around. Kira:  I will be sick, sick that day. It'll be out sick. Rob:  Yeah. Kira:  No. Rob:  Trust who is the question now. Kira:  Let's kick it off with, okay, let's just start with some easy questions. We've been building TCC together over the last five years. So, I'm just curious, what are some of the big lessons you've learned from building this specific business? Rob:  Yeah, when you told me you're going to ask me this, I'm still kind of trying to figure out what are the biggest lessons. I think, I mean, there's so many. But I think number one is when you build a business like this, and The Copywriter Club is different from you building a copywriting business or me building my copywriting business. Obviously, we're doing a lot of things together. And we're doing a lot of things that we probably couldn't do on our own. And so, number one lesson, I think, is just having a partner allows you to do more because you can focus on different areas of the business. You can play to your strengths. And hopefully, you and I have partners that make up for some of our weaknesses. So, it's not all strengths and nobody's covering the weaknesses. But I think number one is that I could not have done this without you as my partner. I'm not sure if you could have done it without me. I won't presume to know the answer to that. But having a partner allows us to get more done. And so, that's maybe number one lesson. Number two lesson is that this should have been obvious, because this is always a business lesson. But things go slower than you want them to for all kinds of different reasons. Things always take longer than maybe we planned for or that we hope for. And so, yeah, just knowing that things sometimes have gone slower than what either one of us have wanted is a big takeaway. And maybe number three, we started out doing it all ourselves. And we did the podcast on our own. We built the first crappy website on our own. We were reaching out to people trying to make connections. We kind of cobbled together the first version of the Accelerator. And I think getting the business to the point where we grew past that where we couldn't DIY everything, we had to have a team and we had to get help, whether it was from VAs, whether it's from other people to help with marketing or even from mentors, I think, has been a big takeaway. I have never reached out to mentors in my freelance business before, before you and I had ... Right before we met, and so we've been a lot better as we built this business together and doing that. So, maybe those are three pretty big takeaways from this experience that I'm sure that there are more if I had even more time to think about it. Kira:  Yeah, I sent Rob the questions like 20 minutes before this interview. I should have given you some more prep time, but I appreciate you rolling with it. So, can you give an example of what moves slower than you were expecting? I'd love to hear some examples. Rob:  Yeah, I mean, I think in some ways everything moves slower. Because once you have an idea, you're like me in this way. This is one place where I'm not sure that we make up for each other's weaknesses. But we're both pretty focused on ideas. And wouldn't it be nice if we had this. And so, oftentimes, we'll come up with an idea is like, "Hey, maybe we should have a beginning copy course," or "Maybe we should have a program that does this particular thing." And we'll both agree, yeah, that's a great idea. But then the execution portion of it takes a lot more time or effort, or it's because it doesn't fit one of our top priorities for what we want to accomplish in doing the business, falls to the wayside. So, there's those kinds of things that we've got a lot of good ideas, it'd be great if they could just all happen now. But for all kinds of reasons, they don't happen now. And the best of them happen over time is you, me, our team as we build them. But a lot of times, I mean, there's still a huge list of ideas that we've had that we still haven't had time to even begin to tackle. So, 10 years from now, maybe The Copywriter Club is going to be this amazing collection of resources and trainings and all that stuff well beyond what we already have. And that's going to be an awesome day. But it may take us 10 years to get everything out of the idealist we've got. Kira:  I think I might be in my 80s by the time we finished the list. But that's a really good point. I think you and I complement each other really well and our strengths and weaknesses. But you're right, one area where we don't is we both are ideas people, as probably many of the listeners are as well. And so, you and I just send voice memos with tons of ideas. And they kind of drop. And now, we have a team. So, that's been really helpful. But see, Rob, we have more in common than we realize. This is great. This is so good. Rob:  There you go. And I mean, in all honesty, though, that's one of the things that make some of our programs so good is because you and I are both really good at ideas and identifying opportunities, those kinds of things that when people come to us and ask us for help, that's one place where we both shine, I think. And because you and I also come at life from two different places, we actually provide a pretty broad variety of ideas. It's like you could think about it in this way. And your approach is going to be maybe a little bit different from my experience and my approach. And so, being able to produce a lot of ideas for the copywriters that we work for, I think, makes that time that we were able to spend with them more effective. Kira:  That I think you just identified part of our x-factor that you and I have struggled to figure out, even though we help other people figure out their x-factor, the idea generation, so yeah, that's great. And I'm going to jump around to some like later questions, too, just to keep it kind of fun. So, Rob, I like to know what your favorite carnival food is. Rob:  Carnival food. Wow, it's been a long time since I've been at a carnival. It would probably be a churro or maybe a deep fry ... I don't know that I've ever had this at a carnival. But like how about a deep-fried Mars bar. It's definitely Carnival-esque. And they're quite good. I'm not talking about the American Mars bar. I'm talking about the UK Mars bar. So, it's basically deep fried Milky Way, but so good. Kira:  Is that a thing? I'm sure it's a thing. Rob:  Oh, yeah, it's definitely a thing. There's a fish and chip shop in Scotland that claims to be the originator or the place where it was invented. And it's quite good. Kira:  Okay, that's what we need at the next TCC IRL. That's the desert that we need. So, Rob, let's talk about where you struggle the most. Let's talk about your weaknesses. What do you struggle with the most in your business and in copywriting? So, let's talk about both. Rob:  So,

Chris Orzechowski is back on the show for the 259th episode of The Copywriter Club podcast. Chris has shifted his business into an agency and he’s become known as an expert E-Commerce Email Strategist. Chris breaks down what it looks like to run an agency without diluting the client experience. If an agency business model has been on your mind, tune into this episode. Here’s how it all goes down: How Chris launched an agency at the beginning of a pandemic. The ins and outs of running an agency and who should run an agency. Why building an agency can come with a lot of relearning. The different types of agencies and which could be right for you. Solving agency problems. Is there a difference? Assessing the goals and milestones when running an agency. Do you have to dilute your work or client experience in an agency model? What does profit look like inside an agency? The different types of lead generation. What will work for you? How to hire and manage a team. Finding your strengths and weaknesses and executing an action plan. The 4 tools you need to start running a business today. The importance of SOPs and how it will create clear processes in your business. What does it take to write a book? Is it as difficult as you may think? How to get the upper hand in blogs and speaking gigs. The power of shifting your business when something isn’t working. Building authority and becoming known as the expert. How does it actually happen? How to make big vision goals less overwhelming and actionable. How to look at the big picture when you start to spiral into the unknown. Copywriters and email lists: Do you need one? The strategy you need to implement for email marketing. Are lead magnets still relevant? Advice for anyone who feels comparisonitis. – Hint: Patience is essential. Even if an agency isn’t on your radar, this episode will give you actionable tips on how to run and grow your business. Hit the play button or read the transcript below. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Chris's website Full Transcript: Kira:  Long time listeners will know this about us already, but occasionally we like to bring back quests who we've interviewed before to see what's been going on in their businesses since the last time we chatted. Often business moves in ways they didn't predict when we spoke a couple of years ago. And we're doing it again this week. Chris Orzechowski is our guest for this episode of the Copywriter Club podcast, and as you'll see Chris has a very different business than the one he talked about when we interviewed him before. Rob:  But before we jump into this interview, this podcast is sponsored by the Copywriter Think Tank, that's our mastermind for copywriters and other marketers who want to think outside the box. Wow, we're using a cliché to talk about thinking outside the box, that's so inside the box. But, if you want to build new offers and revenue streams in your business, then the Copywriter Think Tank is the kind of place that might just be for you. So Kira, you asked me this last week, I'm going to ask you, why do you think the think tank helps copywriters experience real results? Kira:  Yeah. What comes to my mind first is that we help copywriters go from feeling like a business owner and acting like a business owner and thinking like a business owner to feeling, thinking, acting like an entrepreneur. And we've talked about this frequently with our accelerator program where you can shift from a freelancer mindset to a business owner mindset. But once we're in the think tank, and we're working very closely with the copywriters in that room and they're surrounded by 25 other copywriters who are ambitious and building businesses and restructuring models and figuring out how to do it in a way that works for them, that's where that shift from business owner to entrepreneur really takes place. And we've seen it with the think tankers that have been in there and how they've grown even since they've left the think tank. So that's the big shift for me that I've noticed, from the people that show up in the think tank. Rob:  Yeah, I agree. If you want to be a great copywriter you study great copy writing. You surround yourself with good copywriters. But if you want to be a great business owner of a copywriting business, then you need to more than just copywriting. You need to study business principles. You need to be surrounded by people who are doing, not just interesting things, but successful things, big things, in their businesses. And that's why something like the think tank helps so much. So I've you're listening to us, talk about that. And if the Copywriter Think Tank sounds like something you'd at least like to know a little bit more about visit copywriterthinktank.com, fill out that form and we can just have a short call to talk about whether it's right for you. Kira:  Okay. Let's hear from Chris about what's been going on in his business since we last talked to him about two years ago. I believe it was episode 112 of the podcast. A lot has changed for him. Chris:  I went from being a freelancer to having a simple team. And info products, a newsletter, all this just crazy stuff. A lot of growth. What happened was I was getting to the point as a freelancer where I'd done a lot of big multimillion dollar launches and worked for people like Jeff Walker and Tom Asraf, and I just started feeling like I just was doing the same thing over and over again. All these big launch projects, these webinars and everything, and it was fun. It was cool. But after a while I was just like, "I want another challenge. I want another mountain to climb." I didn't really know what I wanted that to be, but I just knew I wanted to see what else was out there. So, I started obviously working on my own side of the business. Building my own list and creating products and those kind of things, which was cool. And it's really exciting the first time you have an email list. I remember I did an affiliate promotion for Abbey Woodcock's, one of her programs a couple years ago. My list was 273 people and I made 1,700 bucks. And I was like, "Holy crap, this is awesome. I can do this every week." It was so cool. So I just knew that that was going to be the next step for me instead of just continuing to ... Because there's a few different paths that you can go. You can go super deep and become the high end freelancer and continue to raise your fees and the level of clients you work with. There's nothing wrong with that. But for me I was like, "I want to see what else is out there." Because I get bored. I want to hop around. I want to get my hands in different things. So, I started doing that. I also started getting more leverage and removing myself from writing as much copy one on one for clients. I said, "You know what, I have this idea where I want to do an agency." And I'm a big fan of mad men, so maybe that's just reprogrammed my brain a little bit after watching it eight times. But, I was like, "You know what, I think I can do it." And I was like, "Why not?" I'm 32 right now. When I started this agency, when I had the agency idea I was 29, 30. I was like, "What am I going to do for the next three decades? What am I going to do?" I don't know, there's nothing wrong with just continuing to do the same thing and becoming a master of the craft, but I was like, "I just want to see what else is out there." So, I said, I'm going to start an agency, and so I didn't know when. But then COVID happened. And my son was born March 31 last year and it was crazy because we didn't know if I'd be allowed in the hospital. I mean, I knew I was going to be there even if I had to elbow past the guard. It's like, "I'm going to be in that room." But there was a lot of uncertainty and my wife had to labor in a mask. There was this whole big ... we didn't know what was going on. It was very early on in the process. Everyone probably remembers what that was like. And I remember I came home, I had this paternity leave plan. I was going to take two or three weeks off and do nothing. And with everything that was going on with the economy and the market tanked and all this stuff. I was like, "We're taking zero days off." I launched my agency the day I got home from the hospital. We put my son down for a nap and I got on the computer I said, "All right, let's get some writers. We've got a few clients signed up. Let's get it going." And ever since then, just been pedal to the metal. Rob:  So, I'm really curious about that process because I know there are a lot of our listeners that even if maybe an agency isn't right for them now, they're kind of thinking, "Hey, maybe someday the agency thing would work for me." Or they're working with clients and they've got enough work that they occasionally bring in a junior writer to help out with various things. So they're almost to that stage. Talk to me a little bit about, okay yeah, you launched the agency but there's a lot that goes into that. Let's talk about the first steps but clients, writers, other help and all that goes into running a virtual agency. Chris:  Man, it's a lot. The main thing I can tell you is that you've got to know what you want out of it. You've got to know who you are, what you do, who you do it for. And what you want it to be. And those, it's taken me 18 months to figure that stuff out. So it's not like you listen to the podcast and then 10 minutes later you have it figured out. It's going to take a lot of just going out there, closing deals, working on projects. And I remember I was telling Kevin Rogers, who I do coaching with, I was like, "Man, every week I just get punched in the face." Like just punched in the face with reality.