The Copywriter Club Podcast

On the 298th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, Avi Webb joins the show. Avi is a copywriter who specializes in naming businesses and offers (not an easy task). Is there a method to the madness? Avi spills his secrets to his research and creativity processes, and how you can tap into the naming market. Check out the goods: Avi’s transition from creative writing to persuasive writing. Why is there a lack of emphasis on copy? Are there any advantages to design vs copy first? How design and copy are two separate languages and how to navigate both. The better way to work with designers, so each vision can come to life. What kind of communication needs to happen between designers and copywriters? How Avi became the name guy. Do you have to love everything about copy? How to find your unique, comfy, copywriting chair. Is there a method to charging for taglines and names and how are you supposed to communicate the value? Avi’s naming process – What happens before the verdict is decided? What mistakes do people make in the naming process? When should you use your name vs a business name? How to stay creative and continue to tap into your creativity. The key to developing your own unique perspective. Avi’s lead generation process for his signature naming offer. Tune into the episode to learn how you can improve your own naming process. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: The Accelerator Waitlist The Copywriter Think Tank Kira’s website Rob’s website Avi's website How Much Money Can an Author Expect to Make on Their Book? Blog The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Free month of Brain.FM Episode 1 Episode 154 Don't Call It That by Eli Altman   Full Transcript: Rob Marsh:  Have you ever been hired to name a product, or a service, or a business. Naming is one of the most fun kinds of projects that you can work on and also one of the most difficult, because so much depends on getting things right. Does the name you come up with describe the product or what it does? Is it desirable? Is it easy to say, or spell, or remember? Is the URL available? Is the trademark available? Is it too close to a name or a term that your competitor uses? Naming is hard. So we invited copywriter Avi Webb to join us for this episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast to talk about his process for naming and what we need to think about if we're going to make naming a part of our business services. Kira Hug:  This episode of the podcast is sponsored by The Copywriter Accelerator. That is our program designed to give you the blueprint, structure, coaching, direction, and community you need to accelerate your business growth in four months. So you can go from feeling like an overwhelmed freelancer to a fully booked business owner. We're actually opening this program, The Copywriter Accelerator, for new members next month. And if you have any interest at all, just jump on the waitlist to be the first to hear all the information about the program when we open it up in August. So to do that, just go to the show notes and check out the link for the wait list. Rob Marsh:  Or you can go to thecopywriteraccelerator.com. Now let's jump into our interview with Avi and find out how he became a copywriter. Avi Webb:  How I ended up as a copywriter is, I don't know, that interesting. About when I left school a friend of mine was involved with a children's museum that was just rising in Brooklyn.  Kira maybe you know the area on Eastern Parkway, the Jewish Children's Museum in Crown Heights? And they were just opening then and looking for a creative team. He knew me from camp. I had been involved in writing plays and songs and sort of the creative writing kind of guy, and pulled me in to see if I could be helpful. "So, what do you do?" I said, "Writing." I don't know why exactly that time, but that really became the first time that I wrote to persuade. Although I couldn't have put it in those few words at the time. They were looking for sales, content and collateral, they were looking for membership type stuff. And different from the things I had been doing, which was like I said, creative type of writing to be enjoyed. That was the first time that I got the importance of writing things to compel and to persuade. And so, from there, I sort of kept going. Rob Marsh:  So, you were doing creative writing, like stories, poetry, that kind of stuff before? Avi Webb:  Yeah, a little bit of poetry and plays and story and song lyric type things. Not professionally. This was kind of as a teenager and as a counselor, that type of thing. So it's like someone asked me where my creative experience is. That's what I reached for it. It wasn't so intentional. Rob Marsh:  Okay. Yeah, that makes sense. And then, as you started writing copy for this client, what did you do to figure all of this stuff out? Because obviously you hadn't been thinking of yourself as a copywriter or even advertising yourself as a copywriter, you were just sort of helping out. How did you turn that corner and really turn yourself into a copywriter? Avi Webb:  Yeah, not only was I not calling myself, I didn't know the term. Probably three or four years into being a copywriter I didn't know what the job title was. They had very specific needs, which sort of worked the backward way of some clients where they're like, "I need something to, just write something." And then the copywriter needs to say, "Well, what do you need to do?" And sort of dig into all those things. At that point, they were a brand new museum, and they were looking for somebody to write collateral that was going to get people in the door. So it was a pretty straightforward first assignment. Like a tri-fold brochure that was going to be left around different parts of New York, sent around to the public school system, just various things like that. They had a very clear goal and a very clear need. So, asking questions of those people, then I guess intuitively, I started to ask what people that were going to be reading this wanted to know and what would compel them to join it. But I didn't have a very clear process or understanding of where to be looking for those things. Kira Hug:  So, let's say I start my own museum, which would be pretty fun. What would you recommend for me if I want to attract people, and get people in the door? Based on your experience, what worked? Avi Webb:  I think you probably have a good sense of where I would go with that answer. Really, really every single experience and every type of potential visitor and every time is going to have a different message and different way to go about that. In this case I had mentioned that I was involved with the Jewish Children's Museum. There's a backstory to that, some list of very familiar, that there was a Jewish student who was killed on the Brooklyn Bridge in 1994 for being Jewish. There was a gunman who pulled up alongside a van load of Yeshiva students and opened fire on them, and Harry Halverson was killed then, and his mother was the one who spearheaded this museum to teach. Really a big motivation of hers I think was to teach the public school system or to just engage the public school system with the Jewish community in New York to sort of create this familiarity, and in that way get people to understand each other a little bit better. So, a big goal for them was to speak to public school students who weren't necessarily driven to understand the nuances of Jewish culture. So it was just kind of to engage with culture that is different from themselves. I guess my long-winded answer to you is how I would go about pushing your eventual museum is to understand the motivation of why you built it. What people might be interested about it. Individuals, groups of people who might be interested in coming toward it. And finding how to create a compelling and concise message to get them interested. Rob Marsh:  I want to curate the museum of Kira. All the stuff that goes in. Like the cheerleading outfit and the old retainer that she would have had. Kira Hug:  I got rejected from cheerleading. There's no cheerleading outfit. Avi Webb:  Yeah. I'm not that surprised here that you reach for that particular example, because I think there's a lot that you can probably put into a museum of Kira. Rob Marsh:  All the costumes. This is a future project for us, I think. Kira Hug:  Yes, another project. Rob Marsh:  We might need some help with… Kira Hug:  Another project. Rob Marsh:  So Avi, so as you were working then with the museum and sort of figuring out the copywriter stuff, how did you go from that to now finding additional clients or the next job? Build that career ladder for us. Avi Webb:  So, the bulk of my copywriting career happened right after that, in that I created a role in that museum called staff writer. And it was sort of PR plus marketing and a mix of it all. And at the point that that, I felt I had grown out of that or maybe they felt I had grown out, I don't remember exactly. There was a boutique agency here in Brooklyn as well that was looking more specifically for a copywriter. They were really design-heavy, but they knew they needed somebody who can create the actual strategic language for what they were doing. And so that's where I took my next job. And I was there for about nine years as kind of the Jack of all copy. I did really all print ads and packaging copy and shipping email receipts. And just really anything that our clients came to us with that was related to language came onto my plate. And so I cut my teeth on that and really enjoyed it. Kira Hug:  So can I get a timeline here? Because I need to just put all of this into context. What years were you working at this agency?

Our guest for the 297th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast is Mary Adkins. Mary is an author and writing coach who helps her clients start and publish a book. She walks through her process to writing her first book and how she’s gone on to publish three. This episode is the journey of getting permission to pursue the passion project that so often gets left on the backburner and to fully embrace where your creativity takes you. And it goes like… Mary’s journey from law to fiction author in the span of a few years. The affirmations Mary kept top of mind when there was too much rejection to count. Feedback – What’s the right way to get feedback without crushing your vision? What is your first draft meant to be? The reality of how we give feedback and why it’s all wrong. How to find the topic you are meant to write about and how to open it with curiosity. Building the skill of perseverance when you feel like your story belongs in the gutter. How to create something new to your project when things get a bit dull and how it can translate to the copywriting world. Where the best place to learn how to write, edit, and pitch a novel. How much money can you really make in the book writing world? Is there room to negotiate? What’s it like to work with a literary agent? Do enneagram types affect the book writing process? The struggles that may get in your way and how to avoid them. How to properly set writing goals based on your enneagram type. The reminders you need to keep in mind during the process of writing and publishing your book. Tune into the episode or read all about it in the transcription below. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: The Accelerator Waitlist The Copywriter Think Tank Kira’s website Rob’s website Mary's website How Much Money Can an Author Expect to Make on Their Book? Blog The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Free month of Brain.FM     Full Transcript: Rob Marsh:  Do you want to write a book? We've interviewed a couple of book specialists on the podcast over the past couple of years, but in those interviews, we've focused on non-fiction books that you could use to grow your business. But a lot of copywriters want to write something a little more creative, something like a short story or a screenplay, or a novel. Today's guest for the Copywriter Club podcast is best-selling novelist Mary Adkins, who has published three novels and, in addition to writing, helps others figure out how to write and publish their own work. This is a pretty fun discussion that got us thinking about writing something that could be turned into a movie instead of a workshop. If you listen between the lines, there are a lot of good ideas and some good advice that applies to copywriting too. Kira Hug:  But first, this episode of the podcast is sponsored by the Copywriter Accelerator. This is our program designed to give you everything you need to start your copywriting business, to pivot your copywriting business if you're changing it up, or to grow your copywriting business if you feel like you've hit a plateau. We have blueprints, we have structure so you know what to do, or we provide coaching and an incredible community so that you can work through and build your business with your peers and you don't have to do it alone. We're kicking it off in August and you can jump on the waitlist if you want to learn more about that program. Just click on the link in our show notes, and you'll hear more information about it soon. Let's get into our interview with Mary. Mary Adkins:  I always loved creative writing since I was in 7th grade actually is when my English teacher turned me on to creative writing. I loved it and I always wanted to be a writer, but at some point along the way, I don't know, I think I lost some confidence and felt like I needed to do something more practical and wound up in law school, which I actually think is a pretty common path for a lot of writers and a lot of creative people. I went to law school. I liked law school, I really enjoyed it. I liked being a student and I liked learning. That was a good experience, but as soon as I actually became a lawyer after law school, it was pretty clear to me immediately that it was not a good fit for me. I wanted to be writing and that's really what I knew and as soon as I got this job, I don't want to be doing this. I want to be writing. I pretty quickly, under a year left law completely, so that I could prioritize launching a writing career. I quit my job and went back to tutoring to pay my bills, which is what I was doing before I went to law school, and moved apartments, moved to a cheaper apartment. I was living in New York City and had to change my lifestyle to afford it. I would tutor in the evenings and I would write during the day. I didn't know what I wanted to write. I did some freelance copywriting, I did some freelance journalism, I published some personal essays, just got some odd writing jobs here and there. But mostly, I was interested in writing and publishing a book. I knew that that's ultimately what I wanted to do and ideally, more than one, so I set about taking writing classes to figure out how to do that. I started with a memoir. That was my first big idea, was that I was going to write a memoir. I learned how to write and publish a memoir, which is at least at the time, which was, this was 2010, the way that you sold a memoir was on proposal, which is largely still the way it's done. Sometimes it's a little different depending on the type of book and who you are. I put together this memoir proposal and started sending it out to literary agents, which is how you get a traditional publishing book deal still. Long story short, I got a lot of nos, I got a lot of rejections and one of them wrote back though and said, he said, "Well, I could have sold the hell out of this in the 900s, but I can't now, so do you have anything else?" I didn't have anything else, but I think at this point I had learned that you never say that. You never say you don't have something else, so I said, "Well, what could you sell now?" He said, "A novel. Do you have a novel idea?" I actually did have a novel idea. I just hadn't had the confidence to write it yet. I wrote a little paragraph about this novel idea to him and he was the first person I had shared this novel idea with. I wrote it in an email and he wrote back, "Oh, that sounds like, that sounds great. I love this concept, write the novel and then send it to me." That is really what launched my career as a novelist because I didn't realize it at the time, but I didn't have the confidence to write a novel. I think I just thought, "Well, that's something that people who are a lot smarter than me do. I don't know how to do that. I hadn't even written a short story that I liked, so how could I possibly write a novel, much longer fiction?" Getting that permission slip from that literary agent is why I wrote a novel. That novel became my first novel and I've since written and published three, and I think of myself primarily as a novelist. I'm really grateful to him for that because ... and he didn't end up becoming my literary agent, by the way. I did send it to him and once I was finished, he never offered to represent me, but I did find obviously another path to publication through another agent, who is my agent to date and is wonderful. That's essentially my story of getting published. In terms of the program I now run, The Book Incubator, I realized after my first book came out that I had had this kind of long and meandering path to publication. That novel, that first novel that I wrote, came out in 2019, and I had started it in early 2012. It was a seven-year process. I didn't have any regrets about that process, it was my path. It was also, I think, unnecessarily solitary and I learned a lot through trial and error and I hobbled together how to do a lot of things to ultimately write the novel well and get a book deal. I took a lot of classes that were not helpful and that I think actually derailed me for a while, so, I decided to put together what I learned into a writing course. I just started with one course. I'm like, "I'm going to put this course online and I'll teach people what I wish I had known." That first course I put together was just around how to write the novel, how to write the first draft of the novel. People started taking it and they loved it and then they were like, "Well, how do I revise it now?" Then, I put a course together on how to revise the novel, and then they took that and they liked that, and then they were like, "How do I pitch it now? How do I get a book deal?" I put that. Eventually, it grew into this all-inclusive, how-to-write, revise and pitch your book to get a book deal year-long program, which is what I run now, The Book Incubator. Long story short, that's my six-minute version. Rob Marsh:  Lots of stuff to cover in there. I want to go back to when you were just starting out as a writer and that experimentation phase. I have a lot of questions about this, but you were trying a lot of different things. What was it that kept you going? What was it that made you say, "Okay, I'll try this, or I'll try this"? I know you wanted to be a writer, but talk us through that experimentation phase and how you found the path to the thing that you wanted to do. I think a lot of writers get stuck here thinking that, "Well, I want to be a writer, and then maybe I'll have them end up as copywriters because they just never get past the thing," and it's like, "Well, I can make money copywriting," but yeah, talk about that phase for us. Mary Adkins:  When you said, what kept you going? The first thing that came to mind was glimmers of affirmation. I feel whenever I would get, publishing my first essay,

On the 296th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, Grace Fortune joins the show. Grace a copywriter and course strategist for copywriters who are looking to launch a digital product. She uses the C.O.U.R.S.E framework to guide her clients through the launch process, and in this episode she gives our audience an inside look at how it works. Here’s how the episode breaks down: Grace’s transition from virtual assistant to copywriter to course strategist. How she overcame her fear of calling herself a copywriter. How she used her virtual assistant experience to carry over into the launch and marketing world. Why she decided to start controlling the narrative and how it’s helped her grow her referral network. Grace’s ‘why’ for helping copywriters create offers. The C.O.U.R.S.E framework and how you can use it for your own offers. When should we launch a course or digital product? Is it ever too soon to launch a product? The importance of collecting the right data and knowing your target audience. The mistakes copywriters are making when it comes to creating and launching a digital product. Why we shouldn’t let tech get in the way of launching and overcoming the perfectionistic tech mindset. What Disney does well and how we can implement it into our business. How to keep up with client relationships and keep people coming back. How to create a better client experience – Is it as difficult as we think? The secret to better client communication and avoiding scope creep and sticking with boundaries. How to overcome burnout as a copywriter. The process of growing a microteam and communicating with your contractors. Check out the episode by hitting the play button or read the transcript below. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: The Accelerator Waitlist The Copywriter Think Tank Kira’s website Rob’s website Grace's website  The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Free month of Brain.FM Episode 255 Episode 271   Full Transcript: Kira Hug:  A lot of copywriters help their clients sell courses. Some copywriters have created their own courses and still, others help their clients create courses to sell to their customers. If you do any of those activities in your business or want to do them in the future, you'll want to stick around for this episode. Our guest today is Copywriter Grace Fortune. Grace is a copywriter accelerator graduate, a Think Tank member, and an expert in course creation. In today's episode, she walks us through her process for creating a course and shares a ton of ideas you can use to build your own copywriting business. Rob Marsh:  There's some good stuff in this one, but first this episode is brought to you by the Copywriter Accelerator. That is our program that's designed to give you the blueprint, the structure, coaching, and some challenges and community that will help you put together the pieces of your business and really create something that will continue to grow in the future. If you've done programs like Copy School or RMBC, you've done copywriting training and you know what you are doing as a copywriter, but you need help building the business side of your business. This is the program for you. It will help you go from overwhelmed freelancer to a fully-booked business owner. And we're going to be launching it again, this coming August. If you want to be told about that program when we launch, make sure you get on the waitlist so that you're first to hear about the details. We'll link to the wait list in the show notes. Kira Hug:  Let's jump into our interview with Grace. Grace Fortune:  The way that I got started was actually a few years ago. I started out as a virtual assistant working for a friend of mine who owned her own virtual assistant business. So I went on as her executive assistant, and then I basically learned so much from her. I learned all the backend things on how to run a business, including working with some copywriter clients. Working as a virtual assistant, I actually learned about you guys from one of your alumni from the Think Tank, Chanti Zak. And I started following you guys, watching what you do. And it just, it really inspired me to want to become a copywriter on my own as well as the clients that we had worked with. But I found a big fear of mine was actually calling myself a copywriter. I felt like copywriter was for the term copywriter was for people who had already achieved success, not for people who were waiting in the wings to achieve success. So as you know, when I first came into your network and joined the accelerator program, I was afraid to call myself that. And Rob, I still remember you talking sense into me and telling me that it was okay to call myself a copywriter, even though I hadn't achieved the success levels of people like Tarzan Kay or Laura Belgray, or even you guys. Rob Marsh:  Yeah. So, well, I'm glad that what I said helped bridge that gap. I'm curious, what were you doing as a VA, Grace, and how as you made the shift, as you gradually started calling yourself a copywriter, how did what you do change? Grace Fortune:  Yeah. So I'm glad you asked that because as a virtual assistant, basically everything that I was doing for my clients that I loved involved the course launch base. So I worked with a financial advisor, in fact, I'm still working with him and he is also a coach for other financial advisors. So what I've done on the backend for him basically taught me the entire life cycle of a launch. So I was able to incorporate that into what I learned and what I'm still learning as a copywriter. So it was just like a really, really sweet marriage of everything that I had been doing and everything that I have enjoyed so far. Kira Hug:  And how did you make the pivot Grace? So once you're like, "Okay, I know I want to be a copywriter. I'm not quite ready to call myself that yet, but I'm going to start moving towards that type of business." What are some concrete steps you took? Grace Fortune:  The biggest thing was just starting to call myself a copywriter. I had joined last year's TCC and IRL. And one of the things I believe it was Eman Ismail, I did a presentation and she was talking about controlling the narrative and how people start talking about you. So that was a really, really big shift for me. But concrete steps were really the obvious, starting to convert over how I talk about myself on social media, and how I started talking about myself to my clients. So I really stopped talking about myself as a virtual assistant. I just started talking about myself in terms of copywriting and launch strategy. Rob Marsh:  Again, as you're making this shift and talking about things differently, did you make a change in how you found clients and what you were doing to get in front of the right people for a different kind of project? Grace Fortune:  Yeah, so a lot of my clients are basically referral-based. So my biggest client, the Financial Advisor, was never afraid to talk about me. And he also referred me over to his existing network and I helped them with their own course launches and started talking to copywriters even more than I was before. So really I became very passionate about helping other copywriters launch their own programs and courses. So that was the biggest thing for me is just talking to people more, getting in front of the people that I wanted to start working with. Kira Hug:  And Grace, so what does your business look like today? What type of offers? Do you have a team? Can you just talk about where you are today? Grace Fortune:  Yeah, I can. So I am still doing some work as a virtual assistant for that client I was just telling you about. But right now, my offers are specifically geared toward copywriters, that's where I'm pivoting my business to. So I've just been inspired by one of our alumni from the Think Tank, Grace Baldwin, who when I was in a hot seat on the last day, talking about how to convert my offers to make them more relevant to copywriters, she had mentioned and most people had agreed that my offers weren't really speaking to copywriters where they are in their journey. So my goal is to help copywriters who have not launched products or courses before to do that. So my newest offer, I guess I'll just give you kind of a rundown of how it works. So the idea is that you come to me, we have a strategy call with some homework from the copywriter and I come up with several ideas on how to launch these ideas for products that they could potentially launch based on their audience, where their strengths are. And then I analyze the data for them and then give them basically a big package where they have products that they could potentially launch. There are also templates for sales emails they could write, social media copy to help promote the course, landing pages, sales pages, all sorts of different templates that they can use. And there's also, and this is an area that I've found during my research that really a lot of copywriters need help with is the technical aspect of a launch. So like they could, it would have a technical item, how they could launch a product and say, "Good job, you're teachable or gum road." Once I analyze the data, whatever I think would be best for them, there would also be a marketing plan guide with funnel map samples that they could use, all sorts of different email templates for purchase confirmations, welcome sequences, and even how to relaunch it in the future. Kira Hug:  And I remember that hot seat because it was a month ago. So I should remember that hot seat was not that long ago. I remember that hot seat because you talked about the why behind your business. And that's something that we often overlook when we're talking about business and our offers.

Ed Gandia joins The Copywriter Club Podcast for its 295th episode. Ed is a business building coach and strategist for business writers and copywriters. He helps his client by teaching them to build habits, strategies, and techniques that help them earn more in less time. In this episode, he debunks the “sales” status quo and gives valuable insight on how copywriters can become better salespeople. Here’s how the conversation went down: Ed’s background in software sales and how it was the catalyst for his copywriting career. How Ed went from 6-figures in software sales to a 6-figure copywriting business in 27 months. The play-by-play on how Ed acquired clients with no formal copywriting training. Why he niched down and how that helped him nail his messaging. The 4 questions to decide which niche is right for you. How to tap into your current network when it feels “awkward.” What if you’re a copywriter with no sales experience… How do you close leads? The reality of sales that will change your selling game. How to lead a discovery call from start to finish with the 30/70 rule. The 5 phases you need to start implementing in your discovery calls. Should you have an expiration date on a proposal? The biggest mistakes copywriters are making when approaching potential clients. Intentions vs habits – What’s the real difference? Using the James Clear approach to habit building, so you can optimize your time. How to add CEO time into your business and how Ed puts it into action in his business. The Freedom Triad – How it will help you make more in less time. Why Ed became a coach and his most common struggles running a high level business. If you want to improve your sales skills, this is the episode you want to listen to. Hit play or check out the transcript below. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: The Accelerator Waitlist The Copywriter Think Tank Copywriting Income Survey Kira’s website Rob’s website Ed's website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Free month of Brain.FM Episode 81 Episode 204 Episode 283 Full Transcript: Rob Marsh:  Today there are a bunch of podcasts about copyrighting, but when we started this show more than five years ago, that was not the case. Can you believe it's been five years by the way Kira? Seems like a long time. Kira Hug:  It seems like 25 years. Rob Marsh:  Yeah. At least. At least. Time flies when you're having fun. Back then, there were only a couple of people who recorded podcasts specifically to help copywriters get better at this thing that we all do and one of those people was copywriter and coach, Ed Gandia. Ed's been sharing what he's learned from being a copywriter for longer than we have. And like us, he's nearing almost 300 episodes of his show. Sometimes interviewing other successful writers and other times teaching important business skills. And today we thought we would invite him onto The Copywriter Club Podcast to talk about his business, how he got started as a copywriter, and what he does as a coach, and also to share his best advice for copywriters ready to build bigger, better businesses. Stick around because we think you're going to want to hear what he had to say. Kira Hug:  But first, this episode of the podcast is not sponsored by The Think Tank. Rob Marsh:  What? Kira Hug:  It's actually sponsored by the Copywriter Accelerator. A program designed to give you the blueprint, structure, coaching, challenges, and community you need to accelerate your business growth in four months so you can go from feeling like an overwhelmed freelancer to a fully booked business owner. If you have any interest in this program, you can jump on the waitlist to be the first to hear details about the program when it opens in August. We'll link to the wait list page in the show notes. Rob Marsh:  Yeah, you're definitely going to want to learn more about that. Okay. So let's get to our interview with Ed. Ed Gandia:  This is not what I necessarily wanted to do when I grew up. It's not that I didn't want to do it, but it's not something I thought of doing. I think so much of it stemmed from my success early on. I came from the corporate world. I was in software sales and in other sales environments. I was fortunate enough at the time ... I didn't think so, but I was fortunate enough to work for companies that really didn't do much for me in terms of providing me with marketing support. So I had to learn how to generate my own leads and find my own opportunities and a big part of that involved writing better marketing materials and sales letters and sales emails. And to me, it was really cool because that was selling on paper so to me it was still selling. Because of the way I am, I am intrigued by this idea. I want to get better. Some of what I'm doing is getting results, but I want to do better. And I started buying books and taking courses and didn't realize that what I was doing was this thing called copywriting. I was doing it, I just didn't know what it was called. And I recognized early on that this is something that I truly loved and I wanted to do more of. And then I recognized that this is something I actually could do as a business. I had set a goal sometime around that time in my career to within five years, go out on my own and do something. But I was thinking more like a traditional business. And when I started doing this, I realized, well, this could be my business. I could do this for other companies. So I started this business on the side and as I still had my full-time sales job, I started looking for prospects to help them create better landing pages and sales letters and sales emails, and lead-generating emails. And I knew that this is the direction I wanted to head in. I was able to go from a six-figure software sales job to a six-figure, full-time copywriting business in about 27 months. So because that happened so quickly and I was just talking to people who were doing similar work and they were asking me for advice, and I saw a pattern in terms of the questions people were asking. And I also noticed that so much of what I had learned in sales was directly applicable to building a profitable copywriting business. So I started putting together information and then I sold it. And that eventually led to a blog that I launched with two other guys. And then that led to a traditionally published book. And then that led to creating courses and selling those courses, and then that morphed into coaching. So that period was ... I went out on my own, 2006. I started my side business in 2003. And in 2008, I started publishing and selling information to help others with that transition from full-time work to full-time copywriting and then started coaching in 2012. So now that I think about it, it's been a long time. It doesn't feel like that long, but that's the long story or the long answer to your question. Rob Marsh:  Ed, I'm curious about that ramp-up period as you were switching from the sales career to a writing career. We've talked with people who have made it to six figures in the first year and then we've also talked to people who 've been doing this for five, six, maybe even longer years, and still haven't hit that six figures. So will you walk us through what it took? Three years feels like a really good number to be able to switch careers and make that. But what did you do to go from literally no copywriting to all copywriting and have it completely replace your previous career? Ed Gandia:  I think there were several things. And I will say that it wasn't linear. As you know, these things don't happen in a really neat fashion. It took me a long time to land my first client. My first real client. I landed a couple of really, really small clients that of course got me excited because somebody was actually paying me. But looking back, I really don't feel that those were my first real clients. It took me almost a year to land my first client. So out of 27 months, man, 12 months of that were ... I felt like I was getting nowhere. In terms of what I did, I think it's a combination of factors. One was I'm pretty good at just experimenting with ideas and then quickly deciding or realizing which ones work and then doing more of that and then refining that thing. So I'm pretty disciplined and I pay attention when it comes to those things. The other was the discipline of just having a schedule for myself and certain rules that I was going to follow. Because I couldn't slack off in my job and I couldn't afford to get fired. And in sales, your performance is measured quarterly so it's very easy to know if you're doing well or not. So I had to be very, very careful and I had to set a different schedule for myself, work long hours and then again, just keep doing the things that were working and trying new things and discarding those things that weren't working. And I think the biggest factor of all though is that I was highly motivated. So in my day job, once I decided that I was going to leave and just switch careers period, it's that weight off your shoulders. And then at that point, you're really not motivated to keep doing that work, but I had to. So I was really motivated to advance as quickly as possible so I could meet certain goals that I had set for myself. One of them being a certain level of savings so that I could quit my job comfortably and then another being, having so much income coming in on a regular basis part-time. So I was really driven by this idea of, I have to get out of here. I think that was really my biggest motivation when I think about it. Kira Hug:  I would love some specific examples from you as far as what was working in the early days as you were testing those different ideas. What started to work for you? And then fast forward to today,

On the 294th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, Nicole Morton joins the show to talk about her experience in product development and how it’s helped her build her copywriting career. From creating products to qualifying them in the current market to writing copy for them, Nicole laid out the whole process. Here’s how the conversation went: How Dollies helped Nicole get her start in the product development industry. From idea to store shelf – How to qualify a product to get into the market. How product development can translate to building a copywriting business. The current trends in the copywriting and marketing industry. How to look for trends in your industry. Creating ideas for a product – How do we actually start coming up with ideas? The practical application for brainstorming names for your products. How to uplevel and refine your current skills as you build new ones. Identifying which of your skills are transferable and how you can leverage your background. Client acquisition – How to create a referral system. How to package “ideas” and “strategy” for clients. When it’s a good idea to go back to working a full-time job – Is it a setback? How to reframe “failure” and turn it into a positive. The benefits of going back into the workforce and how it can help you become a better writer and business owner. How to balance working a full-time job, a business, and personal life. Gamification – Can we add it into our business and personal life? What Disney does well and how we can add it to our businesses. Why we shouldn’t underestimate the skills that comes naturally to us. Tune into the episode by hitting the play button or check out the transcript below. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: The Copywriter Think Tank Copywriting Income Survey Kira’s website Rob’s website Nicole's website  The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Free month of Brain.FM Episode 124 Episode 201   Full Transcript: Rob Marsh:  I'm pretty sure it was Eugene Schwartz, who first suggested that copy isn't written, it's assembled. And a lot of copywriters have jumped on that statement, believing that the work that we do really isn't all that creative. It's like playing with an erector set or a LEGO kit. You're just putting together a bunch of preexisting pieces to get the end product that will resonate with your customers. But that's just not true. Yeah, we need to draw on research and connect with the conversation already going on in our customer's heads, but creativity plays a really big part in creating the magic that makes that connection happen. Our guest for today's episode for The Copywriter Club Podcast is Copywriter Think Tank alumni member and master of ideas, Nicole Morton. And what she shares about brainstorming, product development, having better ideas will help any copywriter improve the work they do. Kira Hug:  A quick announcement. This episode is sponsored by The Copywriter Think Tank that- Rob Marsh:  Surprise. Kira Hug:  So surprising. That is our mastermind-slash-coaching program, where you could have access not only to the two of us, but also to our team of coaches so that you have all the support you need as you build your business and create new revenue streams, create new products, create new offers with our mindset coach, our systems and growth coach, me and Rob. We don't really have a name as far as the coaching that we do. But what would you say that the two of us specialize in? Rob Marsh:  Well, I think we are really good at helping people see the potential in their business and coming up with new ideas of how to grow in new ways. So whether it's building your authority and getting yourself in front of different, better ideal clients, or whether it's adding some new product or service to your business. We're just really good at helping people identify the parts of their business where they could start to make really big strides. And I think as well, we're good at helping them set goals, keeping them accountable and moving in a new direction or expanding the direction that they're moving in. Kira Hug:  Yeah. And I think I'm good at pushing people. I don't know Rob if you agree or disagree, maybe I'm actually not, but I think I'm good at it. I just like to push people out of their comfort zone and that's what we also do in the Think Tank. We will push you out of your comfort zone. Rob Marsh:  Yeah. There's no doubt about that because when people are saying, well, I'm thinking about doing this in a couple months or what if I do this next year? And you're always the one like, what's stopping you from doing it now? Let's put the plan into place so that you can actually do it. What resources do you need? What team members do you need? What support can we offer? How do we do it? And you are really good at that. Kira Hug:  And if you have any interest in the Think Tank, now is the best time to join, like right now, because we have an upcoming retreat that's about to happen. And also the investment for the Think Tank, it's about to jump up. So the price tag's going up in June. So if you are listening to this and you have any interest, reach out to us right away, and we can talk to you about whether or not it's a good fit for you. You can head over to copywriterthinktank.com to learn more. Rob Marsh:  All right, let's get to our interview with Nicole. Nicole Morton:  My story starts similar to just about everybody else. I just fell backwards into this industry. But I neglect to mention that I have a 20-year running start in product development and brand management through consumer packaged goods and branded collectibles and things like that. So I started out in a company making collectible dollies. So you used to be able to get the Sunday paper and you'd open up to the circular and you'd see the Elvis plates and the porcelain dolly. So that's the company that I worked for. And I started out as an intern and I never left. They just kept finding spaces to put me. Originally it was in quality assurance and logistics. So I would be helping the team do sample checks and do quality assurance before we get all of our presale samples and communicating with vendors and setting standards for manufacturing and production. And so it gave me a good insight into the manufacturing and distribution side of the product life cycle. But I always had an eye to move back toward product development because that was where the creativity was. So after about a year and a half in QA and logistics, I was able to move back over. And so my job there was to qualify concepts for development and then shepherd them all the way through the development process. Interfacing with vendors who would create porcelain and seamstresses, and wig makers, and prop developers, and get the samples done, and all the way through the manufacturing process, and then do all the sales support. We had a separate sales team and we had a separate copywriting team, which I at the time didn't understand what the difference was, but I was always placed onto the teams that needed the most boost. And they always happened to be sort of the black sheep product. So I ended up teaching myself Illustrator and Quark and being able to get assets for printing and packaging. And so I was kind of a Jack of all trades. And so it was such a great experience to learn all the facets of product development. I love conceptual development. We would do focus group testing. I would help all of the sales teams be able to market their product to gift stores and trade shows. And so I was able to have, I was able to touch the product development all along the cycle from the time that was an idea till the time it was installed on a store shelf in the toys or us down the street from us. So it was a lot of fun. Rob Marsh:  Yeah. This is really interesting to me because we haven't really talked about the product development process a lot on the podcast. So I'm curious, you were mentioning that you were doing part of the qualification. Can you tell us a little bit about that? Like how did you figure out yes, there is a market for this. Yes, this is something that somebody's going to buy or our version of this, it has potential, what did that process look like? And maybe how do we apply that in copywriting either with our clients or our own products that we're trying to develop? Nicole Morton:  That's such a great question. I had a little bit of a cheat code because this, just to kind of orient you in time, this is the late 90s, early aughts where branding just the IP boom was huge. And so you had parameters within which you had to stay. You couldn't get too crazy with IP from Disney or Warner Brothers or MNRs, or whatever project I was working on. But we would do team brainstorming and we would have opportunities to do some trend watching. We would have subscriptions to industry magazines and kind of keep an ear out for, this is pre-social media, so you kind of had to keep an ear out for things that were happening in the entertainment sphere, trends in home decor, trends in fashion, trends in things like automotive and electronics. And so we would come for these huge brainstorming sessions and we had a general idea of what we were trying to develop. So if it was for a particular artist, it was say, Robin Miller that she would have a certain parameter within which she could work. Her specialty was developing porcelain baby dolls from this age to this age, mostly Caucasian. So we would have to find themes that would fit the existing data. But then there were always opportunities to come up with really radically different concepts. For example, there was one time when we got a lead on a licensing opportunity for worldwide wrestling before they changed to whatever they are, WWE right now. So the opportunity to,

On the 293rd episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, Marcella Allison comes back on the show. When she first joined the show, she was in the midst of building The Mentoress Collective, and now after 7 years, it’s time for her to pack it up and leave behind a legacy. In this episode, she talks about her decision to move on and the chance you have to get your hands on what she’s built for a steal. Here’s how the conversation breaks down: What was The Mentoress Collective all about? The difficult decision that entrepreneurs are faced with when growing their brands and businesses. What’s changed in the marketing space since the beginning of The Mentoress Collective? Step by step tips to find a mentor – The do’s and don’ts. Is it possible to have too many mentors? The real difference between a copy chief and a business mentor – Which do YOU need? How the most successful copywriters use these two things to create high-converting copy, and how you can use them too. The attitude you need to take on when editing your copy. The three types of entrepreneurs – Which one are you? How are we supposed to balance learning, success, failure, and accomplishment all at the same time? Are you ready for an agency? The difficulties that come with being a solopreneur and entrepreneur – Are they the same? How to embody someone that would demand the rates you want to ask for. Practical advice on supporting yourself during an extreme transition or pivot in your business and life. Why it’s important to allow a time period of business grief and choosing possibility. How you can change the vehicle in which you give rather than give up what you love. Be sure to tune into this episode all about change and rediscovering passions. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: The Copywriter Think Tank Copywriting Income Survey Kira’s website Rob’s website Marcella - Bundle 1 Copy breakdowns Marcella's Legacy of Success - Bundle 2  The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Free month of Brain.FM Episode 48 with Marcella    Full Transcript: Rob Marsh:  We talk about success a lot on the podcast. We've interviewed lots of copywriters who have built thriving, six-figure businesses. We've even talked to a few people who have made more than seven and eight figures in their business. They've shared the habits and processes, and even the luck that they've had along the way, but we don't talk a lot about failure or quitting. So today's podcast is a little different. Our guest for this episode is our friend A-list copywriter, Marcella Allison. In addition to writing dozens of successful promotions in the financial industry over the past few years, Marcella has spent much of the last seven years building a community to help mentor and support women in marketing. Originally, it was called Titanides, and now it's called the Mentoress Collective, but recently Marcella made the decision to close the doors on that venture, and this episode focuses on that decision. We also talked about mentoring, pay gaps, and what comes next. There's a lot to learn from Marcella's story and her decision, and we hope that you'll stay to the end when Marcella makes an offer that we think is almost too good to be true. Kira Hug:  But it is true. It's too good to be true, but it is true. And this is actually the last day before the price increases for the Think Tank, our mastermind. If you listen to the podcast, you've heard us talk a lot about the mastermind over the last few months. If you have any interest in it, today would be the best day to reach out to our team and find out if it's a good fit for your business so that you can jump in there before our retreat, before our virtual retreat on June 9th and 10th, and before the price increases. You can find out more at the copywriterthinktank.com Rob Marsh:  And just a note about this episode, because we've recorded it just in the last couple of days, we are not adding any commentary throughout this interview this week. So let's just listen to Marcella's story and her decision to close her latest business. Kira Hug:  All right. So, Marcella, it's been a while since we chatted with you on the podcast. And more recently, we did speak with you at TCCIRL back in April, but a lot has changed for you since we last saw you. Can you just give us a quick update on a couple of the small changes you've made in your business? Marcella Allison:  So I made the decision at the start of this month to close down the Mentoress Collective, which was formerly the Titanides, and to not be an entrepreneur in that way right now, and to go back to being more of a solopreneur, working on different projects and with different communities. But I made the very difficult decision to shut down the membership at the start of this month actually. Rob Marsh:  We should actually back up a little bit because I think the last time we actually talked, so anybody who is only familiar with you from our podcast is like, you were really just getting started on the Titanides, which then became Mentoress Collective. I think we should go back even farther. Let's save the terrible news of closing it down, now that we've spoiled that already, but let's talk about what the whole purpose of Mentoress Collective was and what you were doing and the things that you guys accomplished because I think there's this massively encouraging story of just so much of the good stuff that was happening in that group. And yeah, maybe there are reasons that it's not making financial sense, but there are so many other good things that came from that group, and I don't want to skip over any of that. Marcella Allison:  Yeah. You know, it's been... I was thinking about that because I think I was on the podcast your very first season, like within a couple of your first episodes. So it's been a crazy journey. So the Mentoress Collective or Titanides began seven years ago, a little more than seven years ago now at an industry event where there just wasn't a lot of representation, not only for women minorities, it was just a very white male-dominated panel and presenters. And it became obvious to me that we needed to really work harder and do better about lifting women up in this industry. And because it was a friend of mine who was hosting the event, I decided that the best way that I could do that was to hijack all the women at the event and invite them to dinner that night, which is what we did. And we had a mentoring conversation where I started by saying to all the women there, some of whom had only been in the industry for a year, some of whom had been in the industry for 25 years at that point. And my question was, “What was your all is lost moment, and how did you come back from that?” And that led into a very deep discussion of how we actually overcome challenges and how we get back up when we think, “Oh my god, I don't know what I'm going to do after this.” And it was all over the map from personal challenges to business challenges, and I was so struck by how much wisdom was there and that there were women who wanted the opportunity to share that wisdom as part of their legacy, and there really wasn't a container that allowed them to do that. Marcella Allison:  So we started with just a very small private Facebook group, which grew from about, I think we started with somewhere between 15 and 18, and it's 1,500 now of women co-mentoring each other within that private space where they can be upfront about any of the challenges they're facing, ask for help, get mentoring. And from there, it just kept growing. We began to ask some of these women to come and do our version of a podcast, which is a literary salon where they read from maybe a book or a publication of theirs, take questions, share some of their thoughts and wisdom with us. We started to do trainings with some of the senior women in the industry and we created a more formalized structure where women could offer mentoring to each other, whether that was just an hour or 15 minutes or saying to someone, “Hey, can you jump on a call with me and just talk me through your lead magnet and how you do that? You know, I'm new to this. I don't know how to do that. Can you talk me through this?” Those kinds of things, really based on the principle of generosity, this idea of paying it forward to others and also the idea of resilience that you're going to face challenges and you're going to face what you think are endings, but really contained in those endings are new beginnings and a new opportunity, and you have to be willing to see those and to lean into that moment. And so I think one of the things I'm the most proud of is how that ripple effect of that generosity of one woman mentoring another woman who then goes on to mentor another woman has had such a tremendous impact, not just on individual careers, but I feel like across the industry in terms of women recommending each other for jobs, or for speaking engagements, or encouraging each other to get up on stage, or to share what they know, or to own their expertise. And that is a legacy that makes me feel very proud and very happy to know that ripple effect will continue out there for, I hope, years to come. Kira Hug:  You mentioned that you started this seven years ago when you were at that event, and it was mostly white men on this panel. I'm just curious what changes you've seen in the marketing space over the last seven years, especially due to a lot of the work that you've done. Marcella Allison:  I think that... You know, it's a challenge because progress never comes in a straight line. Progress comes in sort of we go forward, then we go back a little bit, then we go forward, then we go back. So in some ways, I feel like more and more women see this as a possible career for them,

Jocelyn Brady is our guest for the 292nd episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. Jocelyn is a brain and story coach who helps her clients create more out of their lives. She is a former copywriter whose fascination with neuroscience led her down a new path. Here’s how the conversation goes: Pig brains – How the heck did they encourage Jocelyn to go down a path of neuroscience? How tragic events can change the direction of our lives and careers. How Jocelyn built her copywriting business and agency by accident and worked with big time clients like Nokia, SunTrust, and Prudential. How persistence is key to building a successful business and why you should think of your business as an experiment. Making a more interesting ‘about’ page and how to get people curious. Is everyone a natural storyteller? Jocelyn’s S.T.O.R.Y framework and how you can apply it to your own stories. Where do most copywriters mess up when telling stories? The key to driving the sale versus justifying a purchase. What are B.S., and how can we Making big pivots in business – How can we effectively make it happen? When it may be a good idea to pivot your business. The #1 struggle in pivoting. Books and resources Jocelyn recommends to start your own brain journey. How to incorporate more play into our lives, and why it’s so important for our livelihoods. Deathbed you – What does that mean and why is it important to Jocelyn’s messaging? How Jocelyn attracts people into her programs – Going from tangible deliverables to intangible results. Take an introspective look at your brain and check out this episode. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: The Copywriter Think Tank Copywriting Income Survey Kira’s website Rob’s website Jocelyn's website Tiny Habits by BJ Fogg Words Can Change Your Brain by Andrew Newberg The Brain That Changes Itself by Norman Doidge Huberman Lab Podcast  Play By Stuart Brown  The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Free month of Brain.FM   Full Transcript: Rob Marsh:  It doesn't matter if you write copy or content or whether you work on marketing strategy or sales. Pretty much whatever we do as writers depends on understanding human behavior and the way people think. The more we know, the better we can communicate. And our guest for today's episode of The Copywriter Club podcast is a former copywriter and current brain coach Jocelyn Brady. She stopped by to help us understand how the brain works, what it takes to create curiosity to tell stories, and how you can keep your reader engaged long enough to deliver your message. Everyone who communicates as part of the work that they do will benefit from listening to what Jocelyn has to share in this episode. Kira Hug:  A quick PSA, The Copywriter Think Tank price tag will increase this June. So if you have any interest in joining us inside this mastermind, don't wait; apply today. We are so excited to introduce some of our newest members in the Think Tank to the entire crew this June during our two-day virtual retreat on June 9th and 10th. It's coming up fast, so again, if you've had any interest in the Think Tank, now is the time to apply. Head over to copywriterthinktank.com to learn more. Rob Marsh:  All right. Let's get to our interview with Jocelyn. Jocelyn Brady:  This is a long circuitous journey, I think. But I'll say that the first time I was really that my brain went, "Wow, what brains can do," was... Well, the first time I held a brain was in grade school when we were dissecting a fetal pig, and I really needed to see its brain. That was not part of the assignment. We were just looking at its organs. And I was like, "But that's crazy. We're not seeing the part that powers all the parts." So I was the sole student there with my hacksaw, just determined to see this thing's brain. That stuck with me. And then later, a couple of decades later, my dad had a stroke and he had lost his ability to speak. And I was just like, "What? This guy, who's this brilliant storyteller and poet and a lyricist and hilarious, and would always say things like, 'I'll tell you when you're older,' when he got to the really juicy part of stories." And I'm like, "But I need to know this ends." So when that happened, I really wanted to know what is going on in his brain and what's possible. And that's how I learned about neuroplasticity. The brain is magical. I like to call it a magical asset, which we can get to. But the fact that even a physically damaged brain can learn to rewire or create new connections. So my dad got his ability to speak back and to tell dad jokes and to still say, "I'll tell you when you're older." I'm pushing 40 now. So I don't know how old I have to be to get to the good parts, but… So these are like backstory context. It wasn't until 2016 that I got my... I enrolled in the NeuroLeadership program for brain coaching. Sometimes they call it results-based coaching. And I thought about going back to school to become a neuroscientist. But at this point, I was running my copywriting business. It was like brain voice consultancy, running that full-time. I had gotten my MFA in creative nonfiction writing, and I was like, "I'm not going back to school again right after this." So I got this into this program, which was great, because it was just focused on the neuroscience and neurological underpinnings of the language we use and how we get into more towards-states or away-states and just giving... It gave me a lexicon to talk about things that were fascinating to me. Because while I was training people to tell stories and tell their brand stories and adoptive brand voice and have personality and their writing, I was way more interested in, like, but what's going on in your brains and how are you guys communicating and getting along? So that's when I jumped into it, brain coaching. Rob Marsh:  I love that. And I kind of would love to go back and talk a little bit about your experience with copywriting, the agency that you built before we go all the way into what you've learned on brains. And clearly, they're linked really tightly. But yeah, tell us just a little bit about the kinds of brands that you were working with and how you were applying what you knew at that time about this whole-brain neurology thing to tell their stories. Jocelyn Brady:  Yeah. So I had gotten into... So I started in 2008 and at that time, had no plans. Like no, I was just... I'm going to earn enough to eat a sandwich and pay the bills, like an accidental business owner, or entrepreneur type. So that led into... my first big client was Nokia when they were a thing. And they were coming out with these new products. Then the iPhone's like, "Hi, I'm here." So that was an interesting time. And then a lot of tech companies. So I worked with Microsoft and it started with writing case studies and interviewing people all over the world to say, "Well, what do you love about Office 365?" Or whatever it was at the time. I loved the interviewing and then it just kept growing and building. Suddenly, I had more work than I could handle. So I realized I needed to hire people. So, bookkeeper, that's a good idea, and other copywriters and consultants and strategists. And then we were creating the brand voice that became really close with a couple of people who ultimately became CMOs, chief marketing officers. So they're like, "Hey, we trust you. You're great. You know how to do all this stuff. So just create our brand voice, go interview all the people, go do all the research and then go train all our people on how to do it." So that was with... God, who was that at the time? SunTrust who turned into Truist to some banking clients, financial clients, couple of startups, and currently also consulting with Prudential. So it's like these industries and companies I never thought I would get involved in and here we are. Kira Hug:  So for a copywriter listening, you've had great success working with these big-name clients during your copywriting career. What do you think you did differently or did really well that paid off during that time and that we could pull into our businesses today? Jocelyn Brady:  I was listening to your episode. Is his name Dan? The Brain.fm episode is fascinating. Rob Marsh:  Yeah. Kira Hug:  Yes. Jocelyn Brady:  Oh, that's great. And he has such a good point, which is don't take... If you're not asking “it’s a no” and don't stop until you hear a clear no, I think that is just the best advice. You keep trying. You keep pestering people and reaching out to people that you really want to work with and think of... I mean, I would just blind-pitch people. I was like, "They sound fun to work with." And I would think of... I would research them and then find, "Oh, this guy used to run a shave ice shop. I'm going to make a joke about shave ice and ice shave. And I grew up in Hawaii and he's going to get it." And that was it. So it's like, what is something that's going to make him want to open that email because the subject line is interesting enough, right? It's like all the practices that we know in copywriting. And then, what's that first line that's going to make him smile, what's going to make him want to read more, what's going to make him crack up in his seat and say, "I need to talk to this gal." So I think that is something. Just see how you can make things fun, especially if they're scary and just keep trying. Think of it as all a big experiment. Rob Marsh:  So I would love to get your thoughts on stories and what's going on in the brain. And it's funny because as I was going through your website, especially your about page, you've got one of the most intriguing about pages I've ever seen. And it's like screen after screen of curiosity and wait a second, “I got to pay attention”.

Lander Sulser is our guest for the 291st episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. Lander is a marketing strategist and launch copywriter who helps her clients optimize their offer using her signature framework. Whether you’re trying to help your own clients with their offers or you’re creating your own, be sure to tune into the episode. Check out the conversation: Not knowing how the hell you get to your dreams, but you know you have them. The benefits of using mastermind to leverage your skills and business. How you could get the “in” with big names in the industry by knowing one person. The other benefits and value you can provide as a copywriter other than just the writing component. The process of creating the name for your offer. How to create an irresistible offer in 4 simple steps. What has changed in creating offers since the pandemic? How to hone in on your BIG promise, so your message isn’t diluted. The guarantee – How should we approach it? What we shouldn’t be doing when launching our products. How to create exclusivity around your VIP offer. The better way to craft your USP to stand out from the crowd. Creating purpose for every copy element you’re providing for your client. DFY vs DWY copy services – what’s best for YOUR business? Boundaries you should be setting as a consultant or mentor. You aren’t (always) the ideal client… create the separation. The secret to the end of research and learning during copy projects. Being nicer to ourselves – How do we rewrite the stories we’re telling? Implementing systems and processes will do w h a t for your business?! Why white space in your calendar will create a better business. How to build authority as a highly-sensitive person. This is a not-to-miss episode. Be sure to press play or check out the transcript below. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: The Copywriter Think Tank Copywriting Income Survey Kira’s website Rob’s website Lander's workshop  The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Sign up for Typeform Episode 205 Episode 266   Full Transcript: Rob Marsh:  You've probably heard the marketing equation 40/40/20. More than one of our guests on past episodes has mentioned it. 40/40/20 represents which parts of promotion are responsible for the sales. 40% comes from your list or your audience, making sure that you're talking to the right people. Another 40% comes from the quality and value of your offer. And the final 20% comes from your copy, the message that you use to sell the offer to the right audience. And if you're talking to the right people with a great offer, you'll almost certainly succeed, even if the copy isn't that great. Conversely, if your offer is bad, even the best copy won't do much to salvage the promotion. All of that is a long way to introduce our guests for this episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. Copywriter and marketing strategist and Think Tank member Lander Sulser. Lander's specialty is helping her clients dial in an irresistible offer that customers can't say no to. It's a superpower that every copywriter needs to have. So you'll definitely want to stick around for this episode. Kira Hug:  Before diving into the interview with Lander, this sponsor for this week's episode is the copywriter Think Tank. Rob Marsh:  Surprise. Kira Hug:  Shockingly, it's the Copywriter Think Tank. It's a part mastermind and part coaching program, and it's designed to help copywriters dive deeper into their businesses and explore new ideas that maybe they didn't even think were possible. With our two new coaches, Linda Perry and Jonnie Stellar, you'll get personalized focus on systems and mindset. In addition to strategic coaching and support from the two of us. If you're looking to create a new offer or program, scale your income, launch a book, or maybe even a podcast, the Think Tank could be your next step to making it happen. And if you want more information, head over to copywriterthinktank.com to learn more. Rob Marsh:  All right, let's get to our interview with Lander Sulser. Lander Sulser:  As a writer today, I have client’s clients, course creators in the online space that I write copy for. And then, occasionally, I'll have students that I coach by creating an irresistible offer. And I'll do that from my little basement office in my home. I love working from home and hearing my kids around the house. So that's how I'm making money right now. Rob Marsh:  So I think a lot of people hear you say, I work with high-end coaches, and think, oh, that's awesome. I'm just starting out. How do I connect with those kinds of clients? I'm curious, Lander, how did you find your first clients and how did you ladder up to these higher-paying bigger projects in your business? Lander Sulser:  Beautiful question. Yes. I remember feeling like how do you get there? In the beginning, truly, I would take an online course, and then I would reach out to these people I just thought were amazing. And I have a podcast and it's called Online Success For Creatives. So one way was just to be like, "Hey, look, I think you are so cool. You've got a great offer here. Can I write for you?" And of course, my pricing was very different at the time, and if it was right, they'd be like, yeah, just write for me. And that was one of my clients, Amanda Horvath, who now has a multi six-figure course, and we've worked together multiple times. So sometimes it was just reaching out and be like, "Hey, I think we align. I think you're really cool. Can I help you on this project? And I can take something off your plate." So that was how I started in the beginning. And then as their stories grew and I had a little bit underneath me of experience and people could see a bit of a portfolio starting to get together. The biggest connections were through doing a mastermind. I would say that I did a mastermind and that really helped connect me with higher-end consultants and course creators, because I don't typically say; it's really hard for me to leave home. I have very little children. And so I think that was the biggest push for me getting bigger clients was reaching out in the beginning and just sticking with it over time. Kira Hug:  Okay. Yeah. And I'm glad we're talking about this because this is a question that popped into my inbox even yesterday. It was just like, "Hey, Kira, how can we talk about how to get the high-end premium clients?" So let's just dig deeper into this. It sounds like what's worked is joining different programs and then reaching out to the creator of the program and then also being in the right room. So you mentioned being in the right masterminds so that you're surrounded by the right people. Are there any other ways outside of that, that you would recommend to copywriters who are struggling to connect with the right clients? Lander Sulser:  Yeah. I think that I mean, podcasts are a really powerful way to connect with people. Even if you're reaching out to someone and a team member, Amy Porterfield is super busy. You're not really going to reach Amy Porterfield through her email, but you're going to reach people on her team that then know your name. And so that's really powerful. And that does come back over time. I full queried it but didn't land the client, but I did reach out to someone. She was on my podcast, she's a seven-figure person and her team was like, “hirer Lander!”. And she went in a different direction, but you can't overestimate the power of those small connections. And by small, I just mean those unique connections that are maybe not in the main person, but they're working on a team because they're going to remember you. They might work with multiple six seven-figureure business owners. And now you're on a new list to get connected. So that's also a powerful way is just reaching out through your podcast or to blog and knowing the name of the team members. Rob Marsh:  Yeah. I like that. I'd love to talk a little bit more about your podcast and how you approach that. What are you thinking about when you are thinking, okay, I want this particular guest on my show and then is it this conscious effort? I'm reaching out to them on the show. Yes, but ultimately I want to work with them someday or are you just forming relationships and trying to nurture them so that when the thing happens, it happens. Lander Sulser:  You know, when I started the podcast, I had a story, like loss, which you guys might touch on later, but when I came into my business, we all know mindsets it's a huge thing really. I was like, I just want to work. And these people seem really cool and they've got amazing online offers and I want to connect with them. And that was the whole basis. I would reach out to these amazing entrepreneurs like Tyler McCall, Casey Morris, there were lasts that really were on my podcast I really love. And I'd reach out and be like, "Hey, I'm literally a mom behind the computer, who wants to make more connections. Would you like to be on my podcast? Here's a few of the basics of what I reach out and do." And many of them said, yes. And then we're on the podcast. And we started talking about what I love to talk about, which is creating online courses. And what I loved at the time when I started the podcast was this ability that, me as a mom and educated love learning could have space and work from home doing what I love and connecting with people without having to leave at home or leave my kids. And I just thought that was so powerful. So really, in the beginning it was just reaching out to reach out to people I thought were cool. I know that sounds really general. And then I guess, started to become more strategic with it a bit. And now I like, if you listen to my podcast, now I have clients speaking on the podcast about how we work together and what they're doing now,

In this special edition of The Copywriter Club Podcast, we’re joined by our three coaches inside our Think Tank Mastermind Program. Tamara Glick, Linda Perry, and Jonnie Stellar share their own experiences inside the Think Tank, and how they now support members inside the program through their expertise in mindset, systems, and community. Here’s the breakdown of the episode: How each coach grew their business with the support of The Copywriter Think Tank Mastermind. Gaining insight on what you don’t know through camaraderie. The permission being inside a mastermind can bring you. The specific stories copywriters tell themselves that’s holding them back from business growth and expansion. How not having these specific systems and processes in place are holding copywriters back. Delegation and burnout – how copywriters are self-sabotaging their success. The hand-off anxiety that can come with hiring a team and how to avoid it. How to avoid analysis-paralysis and information overload, so you can set up your business for optimal growth. The network of support you gain by joining a mastermind group (The Think Tank) ; ) What’s the difference between being a visible copywriter and one who hides behind their words? Gaining visibility in business and overcoming the fear of standing out. How even the most introverted copywriter can gain visibility in their niche and become an authority. Why courage has to come before confidence. Who would win at beer pong… Kira or Rob? The benefits of going to in-person retreats. Check out the episode or read the transcript below. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: The Copywriter Think Tank Copywriting Income Survey Kira’s website Rob’s website Linda's website  Jonnie's website  The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Sign up for Typeform   Full Transcript: Kira Hug:  Okay. So, we are going to kick this off with our special guests, all of you, and I want you to just introduce yourself by sharing of course, who you are, but your role in the Think Tank. What you're doing in the Think Tank to help the members and maybe share a credential or two. Just brag a little bit about why you're so incredible at what you do. So, let's kick that off with Linda. Linda Perry:  All right. Thank you for having me on. I am Linda Perry. I call myself a success strategist these days, and really what that means is that I combine the tools of mindset and some business strategy to help people bust through some of their blocks and take their business to the next level. I joined the Think Tank really to be that mindset coach to help people really bust through some of the stories they tell themselves so that they can actually achieve bigger goals and do the things that they set out to do. And so far it's been a pretty new role, but it has been a blast. And one of the things that I think makes me really good at what I do is I've worked with hundreds of business owners in different areas, but I have an ability to really see where those blocks are quickly and allow people to really implement the tools they need to move past them. I like to think of what I do as sort of this active learning lab, and part of what I love about being in Think Tank is that it is an active learning lab. They get to see in real-time how their blocks are standing in their way and really work toward taking steps. This isn't like therapy. This is really about taking actual steps that allow you to grow and become that person that you've always imagined in your head and achieve that kind of success you want. Rob Marsh:  And I should add, Linda, because you didn't say it, but you have worked as a copywriter. You've built a six-figure copywriting business in the past. You've been through all of the copywriting trainings. And so not only have you built a business like so many of the other people in the Think Tank, but then you also bring the mindset approach. And so you know where the struggles are because not only have you coached tons of copywriters through them, but you've been through them yourself. Linda Perry:  Oh, yeah. That. I forgot about that, right? But it's true. I think I've seen every single kind of block as a copywriter, and I think you guys have seen them with me, and it's really been helpful to really see the stages and allow people to identify them in a much clearer way. Kira Hug:  Let's jump over to Tamara, one of the first coaches we added to the Think Tank. We call you our Cruise Director. Tamara, can you introduce yourself? Tamara Glick:  Hi, I would love to. Hello, I'm Tamara. I am a brand stylist and marketing strategist. I joined Think Tank, I think my year was three years ago now because I was really trying to find a way to bridge all of my interests and see if that actually even made sense and started coming in as being a copywriter and wanting to give up the styling side of my history and left the Think Tank in a totally different space where I was able to combine both strategy and styling together in marketing overall and branding overall. So, that was my personal journey. And it was while I was in the Think Tank as an active member that it became really clear to me how important the relationship part of Think Tank was. Not just the individual coaching, which was absolutely pertinent to my development, but also the community around me. And it became a real interest of mine to find a way to create a better closeness or intimacy between our live interactions with each other, and that's how I became the Cruise Director. Kira Hug:  All right. Thanks, Tamara. And Jonnie, who are you? Jonnie Stellar:  Who am I? I ask that to myself every day. No, thank you so much for having me. It's awesome to be on the podcast again. I specialize in what I call the unsexy essentials. So, those are systems, processes, and tools. And I'm so happy to bring that into the Think Tank to help the Think Tank members kind of create more efficiencies in their business. That's building the systems, growing and leading their teams, and copy chiefing. So creating a little bit more white space in their life to achieve more of that elusive work-life balance. So, work less and life more. So, really what this all translates to is ending unnecessary suffering so that's what I'm hoping to achieve in the Think Tank. And some of my humblebrags are having a hybrid career. I've been in the industry for about eight years. Half as a freelance copywriter and consultant for small brands in the personal development space. And then, the other half was spent as a copy chief and also head of creative for boutique marketing agencies. Scaling teams of two into teams of 10 and that included both designers and copywriters. Kira Hug:  Okay. Thank you. So, we're going to jump into your Think Tank experience to start this off. I'm just curious because you were in at different times and all had different experiences in the Think Tank, what impacted you the most and impacted your business the most from your experience as a Think Tank member? Jonnie Stellar:  I want to say that we were actually, I believe, there was some overlap in cohorts, maybe, but I remember Tamara and remember Linda being in my class. So, it's really cool to kind of be here united with everyone again. I might be mistaken, but I think that it's kind of come full circle. It's exciting to be a coach in the Think Tank and know that I got so much of my training from being in the Think Tank. And that's why I'm here. So, I know a little bit of a meta look on being here, but I think that what really stood out for me being in the Think Tank was the confidence that grew just being around other writers, copywriters who were struggling with the same things that I was and knowing that I wasn't alone really helped me be okay with where I was at in my business. And that I wasn't the most successful and I wasn't the least successful, but really just being there and having that support to step outside or take a leap of discomfort into my discomfort zone was really fueled by the support that I received in the Think Tank. Not just by the amazing coaches like Rob and Kira but also the other members. So, that's what stands out for me the most. Kira Hug:  And Linda, what helped you the most? Linda Perry:  Well, I think I was in cohort two, and I actually joined the Think Tank and stayed for two years. And I think the things that really stood out for me; I'm going to start out from the perspective of a copywriter, was how much there was for me to learn about business growth and how many opportunities you guys provided for learning about copywriting from so many different angles. From the art of writing to the actual practice of it. And then just the comradery and support from other copywriters. I think we were all at a little bit of a different phase for our business around the same time, but we all had different steps we were taking, and there was just such massive support for finding really what was your own. And I will say that my copywriting business grew to six figures within that first year, but what ended up unraveling and something that I really love about what you both do is allowing the person to come into what is their own. Finding that sweet spot of what you really want to do. Linda Perry:  And the truth is I love copywriting. I'm still my own copywriter. But what really ended up evolving was allowing me to actually step back into mindset work. I was a coach prior to ever becoming a copywriter, but step into it in a way that felt much more my own. And oddly enough, you guys foster that in a way that was amazing. And so I feel like I love email writing to this day as much as I love coaching. And it all really came out of being in Think Tank. So, it was really a great experience. Kira Hug:  And Tamara, what about you?

Hollie Tkac joined The Copywriter Club Podcast for episode 289. Hollie is a copywriter for coaches in the online space who has built her multiple six-figure business on DFY copy. She shares her experience in creating sustainable income without the 50+ hour work weeks and how other copywriters can build a business that works for them. Here’s how the conversation breaks down: The importance of building your network and how it can translate into 50% of your income. How Hollie transitioned from coaching into copywriting for coaches. The benefits of hiring a coach and how to find the right one for you and your business. Transferring skill sets from coaching to copywriting. Steps to developing self trust and stepping into your sense of worthiness. Having 6 coaches at once and determining which coaches could help you get to where you want to go. How to get the most out of your coaching programs, so you see a return on your investment. Hitting six-figures in the first year of business – How did it happen? Should you add retainer clients to your business model? How to hire junior copywriters and how to effectively work with them. The wrong way to charge for your copywriting services. Creating a strong client relationship and building trust can lead to this. Where do most coaches struggle and how copywriters can help them. When are business owners ready for a copywriter? Systems and processes to use when working with a team and keeping things organized. Client work vs working on your own business – Where’s the balance? Creating financial projections and how to plan for the future of your business. If you’ve been thinking about adding retainers to your business or hiring a team to help scale your business, be sure to tune into this episode. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: The Copywriter Think Tank Copywriting Income Survey Kira’s website Rob’s website Hollie's website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Sign up for Typeform Episode 253   Full Transcript: Kira Hug:  If you've ever questioned whether or not you could make six figures as a copywriter without creating and selling products, courses, or group programs on the side, this episode is for you. In this conversation, we'll speak with copywriter, Hollie Tkac, about how she niched down and grew her Done For You copywriting business with just that; copywriting. We talked about Hollie's approach to retainers, hiring, and working with junior copywriters, and a few best practices for running a successful copywriting business. Rob Marsh:  Before we jump into our interview with Hollie, this podcast is sponsored by the Copywriter Think Tank. That's our mastermind for copywriters and other marketers who want to think outside the box, build new offers, and add revenue streams to their business. We've recently added a mindset coach and assistant coach to help members of the Think Tank make more progress than ever before, and it's not cheap, but given the results that Think Tank members experience after they join the program, it is absolutely worth it. If you are earning three, four, five thousand dollars or more consistently in your business, go to copywriterthinktank.com to learn more. Kira Hug:  Okay. Let's hear from Hollie about how she got her start as a copywriter. Hi, Hollie. Well, let's kick off with your story. How did you end up as a copywriter for Coaches? Hollie Tkac:  Yeah. Really, it all came down to networking actually, and I still think to this day that's one of the main ways I've built my business. What happened was originally I wanted to be a coach myself, and this is in like 2015, so I joined a bunch of programs and things like that and just took that leap to invest in my business. From that, I ended up making connections and people were liking what I was putting out for my own coaching business I wanted to start at the time and they asked me to write copy for them. I ended up saying yes to that because I was having such a hard time with the selling piece of having a coaching business. I'd write the copy, but getting people on the phone was a little bit scary for me at first, so I wasn't really having a lot of success with that, but for some reason, the copy was easier for me to sell and say yes to. Then it just kind of started snowballing from there. I ended up getting some key clients, even two clients I still work with today, from being in some masterminds and programs initially back in the beginning, and they've been like almost 30 to 50% of my revenue over six years, just those few clients alone. Those connections I made have really grown into something cool. It sort of started that way through community. Rob Marsh:  Yeah. I love that. I actually want to talk a little bit more about the whole pulled into coaching, because I think copywriters, in at least a pretty major way, we are all coaching our clients in some things and how to sell themselves, that kind of thing. What was the draw to coaching? What was it that you wanted to do there that initially got you started? Hollie Tkac:  It was definitely my own journey. Actually in 2015, during this personal development program that I did in LA, I just realized I had worked in corporate at that point. I ended up working a total of seven years at an accounting firm as an operations manager, and I was in the very tail end of that time at that point. I just knew I always wanted to do something else. It started back when I first changed into a role where I was working from home and I wanted to stay home all the time and never have to report anywhere, so I started to think of how could I do this? Then by the time 2015 rolled around, I had decided that I really wanted to be a coach because I was experiencing such a transformation in my own life through getting coached, so that's kind of why I went forward with that. I figured it was something that I could do from anywhere and work from home more and just have that freedom, so it just seemed like a natural next step. Rob Marsh:  As you were thinking about being a coach, how have you applied that in your copywriting business? Hollie Tkac:  Tons of ways. One of the things that I like to think back to is my own story and I try to think about who, because all of my clients are coaches, and they have always been. I think I've only worked with one person in six or seven years that wasn't a coach, so I always try to think about what is the person going through that would attract them to get the transformation. Of course, knowing that they don't use those languages themselves to describe what they're going through. They're not seeking out a transformation in their mind, but they're going through some kind of pain or something like that that would make them... or they want a certain outcome that would make them candidates for my clients' services. I just really focus in on what is that and why would somebody want this person's offer? Being a client helps you to realize those things and helps make you better. I've had lots of coaches in different areas and it's always helped me be better at writing copy for coaches. Kira Hug:  Can you talk more about that, the coaches that you've worked with directly who have helped you personally, professionally? How do you look for a specific coach? There's so many different types of coaches you could work with. How do you know when to find a specific coach that could help you with the current problem and when it's time to leave? How do you approach that? Hollie Tkac:  Awesome. I love that question because I feel like I've done everything wrong in that area in the initial few years that I was starting to take on coaches and do different things. Mostly as a client, so what I have found lately is that I've also invested in some things recently that have really been fruitful. I'm thinking, what's the difference between now and then? I would say back then the most important thing to think about when you're looking for support is to assess your motivations behind getting the support. How that looked for me before, like five, six years ago, is I just didn't have a good sense of my own worthiness and identity. I was actually trying to solve my problems by putting out money and hoping that would fix whatever issues. I worked with a health coach for a year and I worked with a love coach for a year and other types of coaches too. What I realized was that I was just trying to fix something with them that they couldn't fix. Long story short, I realized I needed to just get clear on the fact that I'm basically a worthy human being with or without a coach. Then now that I've reached that place through some spiritual stuff I went through in the last couple years, I've been able to feel like when I hear about opportunities, I have a gut instinct about them and I know that I should dive in or not and I can trust it more. I've developed this sense of trust for my own instincts that I didn't have before. It's led me to make decisions that were better for me and have been able to definitely produce fruit without having a lot of stress in terms of... at one point I had like six coaches at once. Kira Hug:  Oh, wow. Hollie Tkac:  It was a little crazy financially, and also just like so much input from different people. There were all kinds of different areas of my life, but it was a little crazy. Now it's like, I know I can pick something I know that will be fruitful and go with it. Kira Hug:  Can we talk more about this, because I think this is a common challenge for many of us as writers and humans; feeling worthy. You mentioned you went through some spiritual stuff that helped you feel worthy and I feel like we skipped over it, but I'd love to know what you did during that time to really shift from not feeling worthy to feeling worthy and trusting yourself.