Ascend - The Great Books Podcast

Today on Ascend, we discuss Plato, education, the role of the teacher, eros, beauty, and much more drawing from the dialogues First Alcibiades and the Meno. Returning to the podcast, we have Dcn. Garlick, Dr. Frank Grabowski, Dr. Brett Larson, and Thomas Lackey.Visit thegreatbookspodcast.com for our reading schedule.Visit our LIBRARY OF WRITTEN GUIDES to help you read the great books. What does it mean to teach like Plato? In this rich, wide-ranging conversation the panel explores lessons on education drawn from Plato’s First Alcibiades and Meno. The central idea: the true teacher is not an information-dispenser or job-trainer, but a lover of the soul who serves as a living mirror in which the student comes to “know himself” and is drawn toward virtue, happiness, and ultimate beauty.Summary:The conversation revolved around a single, radiant idea: for Plato, the true teacher is not a dispenser of information or a trainer for the marketplace, but a lover of the soul. In First Alcibiades, Socrates positions himself as the living mirror in which the young, ambitious Alcibiades can finally see himself clearly and be drawn toward genuine happiness through virtue. Education is therefore deeply personal, erotic (in the classical sense of an ardent desire for not only pleasure but also nobility and wisdom), and irreducibly communal; self-knowledge is never solitary navel-gazing but requires another soul whose loving gaze reflects one’s own. The panel repeatedly contrasted this rich, teleological vision—where education aims at universal happiness, orders the whole person toward truth, goodness, and beauty, and ultimately points to God as the final mirror—with the thin, “unerotic” reality of modern schooling, which often reduces teachers to talking search engines and students to economic cogs in a materialist machine.A second major thread was the haunting, unresolved tension of the Meno: teaching demands both an able and willing teacher and an able and willing student. Virtue can be cultivated, but it cannot be forcibly downloaded; the student must respond, cooperate, and allow his desires to be re-ordered toward what is truly lovable. This led to broader reflections on beauty, rhetoric, place, and hierarchy: truth is beautiful and therefore insists on being loved; philosophy without rhetoric is impotent, rhetoric without philosophy becomes tyrannical; ugly buildings and disembodied logic deform the soul; natural hierarchy is not abolished by grace but perfected and placed in service of the common good. Throughout, the panel returned to the conviction that genuine education is slow, embodied, relational, and oriented toward the transcendent—an ascent that begins with a teacher who truly sees and loves the soul before him.Key words: Plato, First Alcibiades, Meno, classical education, teacher as lover of the soul, know thyself, virtue, happiness, eudaimonia, beauty, transcendentals, eros, mirror of the soul, rhetoric, philosophy, modern education critique, materialism, teleology, Socratic method, student-teacher relationship, hierarchy, imago Dei, Christian Platonism, and Great Books.This conversation was recorded April 2025.

In this episode of Ascend, Deacon Harrison Garlick and Dr. Brian Kemple discuss the violent, grotesque southern tale "The Lame Shall Enter First" by Flannery O'Connor.Visit thegreatbookspodcast.com for our reading schedule!Check out our LIBRARY of written guides to the great books.Check out the Lyceum Institute.They explore O'Connor's life, her unique Southern Gothic style, and the themes of faith, suffering, and the grotesque in her writing. The conversation also touches on the mission of the Lyceum Institute, the significance of characters and their arcs, and the pedagogical purpose of violence in literature. Through their analysis, they highlight the complexities of human relationships and the contrasting desires of the characters, ultimately revealing the deeper truths embedded in O'Connor's work. Through a detailed analysis of specific scenes and character dynamics, the discussion highlights the grotesque elements in O'Connor's storytelling and the moral implications of her narratives, ultimately reflecting on the nature of redemption and the human experience."She doesn't intend to tidy up reality." - Dr. Kemple

Dr. Gregory McBrayer, an expert in classical political thought and co-host of the New Thinkery podcast, dives into the intense showdown between Socrates and Callicles in Plato's Gorgias. They explore themes of justice, the transformative power of true rhetoric, and the distinction between noble and flattery-focused speech. McBrayer highlights Callicles as Plato's most aggressive character, challenging conventional morality with audacious claims. The discussion even tackles the absurdity of hedonism through vivid examples, revealing a nuanced critique of power dynamics and human nature.

Dr. Matthew Bianco, a Plato scholar and COO at the Circe Institute, delves into the captivating dialogue of Plato's Gorgias, highlighting Socrates' battle against rhetoric perceived as mere flattery. He uncovers the pastry-baker analogy, suggesting that rhetoric can heal or deceive the soul. The conversation explores the nature of justice, proposing that committing injustice is worse than suffering it. Bianco and Garlick also debate whether tyrants wield true power, asserting that wisdom, not mere domination, defines real strength.

Join Athenian Stranger, a Plato-focused educator, and Jonathan Bai, an independent scholar, as they dive into the complexities of Plato's Gorgias. They explore the conflict between Gorgias and Socrates, framing rhetoric as two competing 'technologies'—one empowering the individual, the other seeking truth. The trio discusses key themes like nihilism, the moral stakes of rhetoric, and the responsibility of educators. Expect philosophical gems and compelling insights that resonate with our modern world, challenging the nature of speech and its political impact.

Dr. Daniel Wagner, Chair of Philosophy at Aquinas College and a scholar of Platonic philosophy, joins the discussion on education through Plato's Meno. They explore the contrast between Meno's stagnant sophistry and the humble learning of a slave boy during geometry lessons. Highlights include how embracing perplexity (aporia) fosters genuine learning, the idea that virtue is teachable through active practice, and the critical distinction between true knowledge and mere opinion. The call to action? 'Don't be a Meno'—engage with the discomfort of not-knowing to pursue deeper truths.

Join Dr. Joseph Boyne, an English professor and Chesterton enthusiast, as he delves into G.K. Chesterton's eerie short story, 'The Chief Mourner of Marne.' The discussion explores the gothic elements and festive motifs of Halloween while unearthing themes of charity and forgiveness. Boyne highlights Father Brown's unique detective style, blending innocence with profound wisdom. The duo navigates moral dilemmas and transformative texts, culminating in a reflection on storytelling's deeper meanings, making for a captivating Halloween experience.

The Phaedo is a beautiful dialogue! Join Deacon Harrison Garlick and Dr. Christopher Frey, McFarland Professor of Philosophy at the University of Tulsa, as they conclude their exploration of Plato’s Phaedo, a profound dialogue capturing Socrates’ final hours and his arguments for the soul’s immortality. Reading schedule and more!Collection of guides on the great books!In this episode, Dcn. Garlick and Dr. Frey dive into the second half of the text (72e–118a), unpacking the recollection and affinity arguments, objections from Simmias and Cebes, the concept of misology, the final cause argument, the myth of the afterlife, and Socrates’ enigmatic final words.Episode SegmentsRecollection Argument (72e–77a)Socrates argues that learning is recalling preexistent knowledge of forms: “Coming to know something… is actually recollecting.”Sense experience, like seeing equal sticks, triggers recollection of perfect forms.This suggests the soul exists before birth.The argument for forms is distinct from recollection.Affinity Argument (78b–80b)The soul resembles forms, being “divine, immortal, intelligible, uniform,” unlike the mutable body: “The body is… mortal, multiform, dissolvable.”Forms are simple and unchanging: “Beauty itself doesn’t change… It would have to be something that isn’t visible.”Riveting Image and the Philosophical Life (83d)Pleasures and pains “rivet the soul to the body and to weld them together."Socrates remains calm while others weep, embodying philosophical discipline: “He’s the philosopher… They’re too sunk, they’re too mired in that bodily.”Objections by Simmias and Cebes (84c–88b)Simmias’ harmony view posits the soul as an effect of bodily organization.Cebes’ cloak objection suggests the soul may wear out: “Why couldn’t there be a last time which… the soul does eventually wear out?”Socrates counters that the soul causes life, not the body.Misology and the Value of Argument (88c–89e)Socrates warns against misology, hating reasoned argument: “There’s no greater evil one can suffer than to hate reasonable discourse.”Final Cause Argument (95b–107a)Socrates’ autobiography reveals dissatisfaction with materialist explanations, seeking purpose.The soul’s essential life ensures immortality: “The soul is alive itself in a way that it can’t be taken away… As the fire cannot actually receive coldness, neither can the soul actually receive death.”Myth of the Afterlife (107d–114c)Describes a stratified earth with hollows and Tartarus.Souls face judgment or purgation.Details may not be literal but encourage virtue.Socrates’ Death and Final Words (114d–118a)Socrates drinks hemlock, called a “pharmacon."Final words suggest death as healing: “Crito, we ought to offer a cock to Asclepius… The malady for which he wants to be cured is embodied life itself.”Inspires hope, especially for Christians: “If someone like Socrates… can enter it with this much fortitude… how much greater should our hope be?”Key TakeawaysThe Phaedo’s arguments—recollection, affinity, and final cause—build a case for the soul’s immortality, though not airtight, urging a philosophical life: “The philosophical life is one in which you have to be comfortable with not knowing while still pursuing knowledge.”Socrates’ calm acceptance and final words reflect hope in truth beyond death, resonating with later traditions like the beatific vision.The myth of the afterlife encourages virtue through hope: “We can hope… The tyrants of this life are not going to win.”Follow us on X, YouTube, and Patreon for updates on upcoming episodes, including Plato’s Meno and Gorgias. Share your thoughts on Socrates’ final moments and join our community of great books enthusiasts!Visit thegreatbookspodcast.com!

Today on Ascend: the Great Books Podcast, we are discussing Plato's Phaedo, or in ancient times, it had the subtitle of On the Soul. It tells of the death of Socrates and his various arguments for the immortality of the soul. The Phaedo is a complicated dialogue. It's a long dialogue, but it's very beautiful and very much worth the effort. So it merits a slow, attentive, and subtle read.And to help us with this type of read, we are joined by Dr. Christopher Frey, a fantastic thinker who really is going to hold our hand and walk us through these various arguments of the immortality of soul. We're going to discuss the first part this week (up to the theory of recollection) and the second part next week.So is it beautiful? Yes. Is it difficult? Also, yes, but it's very much worth your time. So join us today for an excellent conversation on Plato's Phaedo with Dr. Christopher Frey.Visit thegreatbookspodcast.com for our READING SCHEDULE and more.Check out our COLLECTION of written guides on the great books.Keywords: Plato, Phaedo, Socrates, immortality, philosophy, body and soul, great books, ancient philosophy, dialogue, deathThank you for joining us!

Today, we are introducing Plato's Phaedo, "on the soul," with Alec Bianco of the Circe Institute and with Athenian Stranger. We'll discuss why to read the great books, why we read Plato, how you should read Plato, and why to read the Phaedo.We then do a deep dive into the opening of the Phaedo, especially on the setting and the myth of Theseus-where a subtle, attentive read unearths a beautifully rich allusion. We'll end with some advice for first time readers of the Phaedo. Visit thegreatbookspodcast.com for our reading schedule.Visit our COLLECTION of written guides on the great books!NEXT TWO WEEKS we'll be joined by Dr. Christopher Frey of the University of Tulsa who will walk us argument by argument through the Phaedo. He's fantastic, don't miss them!Thank you to all who support the podcast!ALSO if you want some rich spiritual lessons rooted in the Christian tradition and the great books, go check out Dcn. Garlick at THE ASCENT.