Ascend - The Great Books Podcast Plato's Meno and Education with Dr. Daniel Wagner
Nov 5, 2025
Dr. Daniel Wagner, Chair of Philosophy at Aquinas College and a scholar of Platonic philosophy, joins the discussion on education through Plato's Meno. They explore the contrast between Meno's stagnant sophistry and the humble learning of a slave boy during geometry lessons. Highlights include how embracing perplexity (aporia) fosters genuine learning, the idea that virtue is teachable through active practice, and the critical distinction between true knowledge and mere opinion. The call to action? 'Don't be a Meno'—engage with the discomfort of not-knowing to pursue deeper truths.
01:41:01
Classical Education Trains The Soul
- Classical education forms virtuous habits by ordering the mind toward truth, not just training for jobs.
- It uses Socratic dialogue and primary texts to cultivate intellectual insight and moral character.
Memorized Rhetoric Vs Genuine Knowledge
- Meno mistakes memorized rhetoric for true knowledge and seeks power through words, not truth.
- Socrates exposes this by demanding definitions and showing Meno's contradictions and ad hominem retreat.
Perplexity Is The Starting Point Of Learning
- Aporia (perplexity) is essential to learning because it sparks wonder and sustained inquiry.
- Students must respond with humility and courage instead of anger to progress toward knowledge.
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Intro
00:00 • 4min
Lyceum Institute and Classical Education Mission
03:37 • 8min
Why Meno Opens an Intro Class on Knowing Yourself
12:01 • 37sec
Classical Education: Formation vs. Training
12:38 • 4min
Meno's Character: Memorization and Sophistry
17:07 • 6min
Socratic Method and Aporia as Pedagogy
22:53 • 7min
Perplexity Versus Pride: The Numb Fish Moment
29:24 • 12min
Why Socrates Uses a Geometrical Example
41:48 • 13min
Does the Recollection Example Rely on Geometry?
55:10 • 3min
Step-by-Step: Socrates' Geometric Demonstration
58:38 • 4min
Mathematical Humility: Incommensurability and Knowledge
01:02:24 • 5min
Contrasting Meno and the Slave: Different Students
01:07:48 • 4min
The Role of the Teacher: Tailored Pedagogy
01:11:57 • 3min
Knowledge, Right Opinion, and Teachability
01:15:21 • 5min
Why Statesmen Fail to Teach Virtue
01:20:14 • 5min
Virtue as Knowledge and Practice
01:25:39 • 8min
Plato, Aristotle, and the Development of Virtue Theory
01:33:15 • 3min
Practical Takeaway: Don't Be a Meno
01:36:10 • 2min
Where to Find Dr. Wagner's Work
01:38:20 • 2min
Outro
01:40:29 • 23sec
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the Mino
null
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Today on Ascend: The Great Books Podcast, Dcn. Harrison Garlick and Dr. Daniel Wagner dive into Plato’s Meno as a masterclass in education, contrasting Meno’s stagnant, power-seeking sophistry with his slave boy’s humble, rapid learning during the famous geometry demonstration.
Visit thegreatbookspodcast.com for our reading schedule.
See our COLLECTION OF GUIDES on the great books.
Check out our sister publication, THE ASCENT, for spiritual lessons.
They explore aporia (perplexity) as a vital pedagogical tool requiring courage and humility, the theory of recollection as a rhetorical device rather than doctrine, and the distinction between stable knowledge (phronesis) and fleeting right opinion (doxa).
Ultimately, virtue is teachable as knowledge, but demands active practice from the student—explaining why even great statesmen like Pericles failed to pass it to their sons. The dialogue emerges as a warning: don’t be a Meno; embrace the discomfort of not-knowing to pursue truth.
“Don’t be a Meno.” - Dr. Wagner
“Learning isn’t just rote memorization… it’s ordered toward nous – intellectual insight into reality.” - Dr. Wagner
“Classical education is the best model of actually conforming the mind to reality." - Dcn. Harrison Garlick
Read Plato’s Meno to see education in action: a proud sophist stays stuck while a humble slave boy learns geometry in minutes, proving that real learning demands courage, humility, and active pursuit of truth. It’s the perfect wake-up call—don’t be a Meno.