Ascend - The Great Books Podcast Plato's Apology Part I with Fr. Justin Brophy, OP
In this episode of Ascend, The Great Books Podcast, host Deacon Harrison Garlick is joined by Fr. Justin Brophy, a Dominican friar and Assistant Professor of Political Science at Providence College, to dive into the first half of Plato’s Apology.
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The discussion explores Socrates’ defense speech at his trial in 399 BC, set against the backdrop of post-Peloponnesian War Athens. The conversation delves into key themes, including the role of Aristophanes’ The Clouds in shaping Socrates’ negative reputation, the tension between philosophy and politics, and the influence of Alcibiades on the charges of impiety and corrupting the youth.
Fr. Brophy and Deacon Garlick examine Socrates’ claim of divine wisdom from the Oracle of Delphi, his distinction between human and divine wisdom, and his refusal to charge fees, distinguishing him from sophists. They also discuss the broader implications of Socrates as a threat to the democratic polis, the conflict between philosophy and poetry, and the natural antagonism between the demos and the great-souled man. The episode highlights Socrates’ pedagogical approach and the relevance of his trial to modern questions of truth, virtue, and societal stability.
Guest Introduction: Fr. Justin Brophy is a Dominican friar and Assistant Professor of Political Science at Providence College, where he has taught for five years. Holding a PhD in political theory from the University of Notre Dame, his teaching interests include ancient and contemporary political theory, philosophical conceptions of the human psyche, and thinkers such as Plato, Augustine, Kierkegaard, Nietzsche, Freud, and those in the modern Catholic intellectual tradition like Romano Guardini, Joseph Pieper, and Walker Percy.
Fr. Brophy also serves as the director of the Center for Catholic and Dominican Studies at Providence College, fostering mission integration and intellectual exploration. His current research focuses on the political significance of Plato’s Symposium, a dialogue he considers his favorite for its exploration of Eros and its historical context tied to Athens’ decline.
Key Discussion Points:
- Historical Context: The Apology is set in 399 BC, after Athens’ defeat in the Peloponnesian War (404 BC) and Alcibiades’ assassination (404 BC). The charges of impiety and corrupting the youth may indirectly target Socrates for Alcibiades’ role in Athens’ downfall, constrained by a post-war amnesty (23B-C).
- Aristophanes’ The Clouds: Socrates addresses old accusations (18a) that he “can make the worst argument the stronger” and “does not believe in the gods,” rooted in Aristophanes’ caricature of him as a sophist and atheist in The Clouds, which shaped public perception and fueled the trial’s charges (19C, 31B-C).
- Philosophy vs. Politics: Socrates’ philosophical questioning challenges the polis’ laws and cultural norms, making him a political threat. Fr. Brophy notes, “Philosophy… forces you to reevaluate… the regime… the principles of law and… your culture. And that can be dangerous” (17B).
- Alcibiades’ Influence: Alcibiades, a charismatic figure linked to Socrates, is seen as a key example of corrupting the youth due to his role in the disastrous Sicilian Expedition and defection to Sparta, amplifying fears of Socrates’ influence (23B-C).
- Socratic Wisdom and the Oracle: Socrates recounts the Oracle of Delphi’s claim that he is the wisest man (20E), leading him to examine statesmen, poets, and craftsmen, concluding that his wisdom lies in recognizing human wisdom’s limits compared to divine wisdom (21B, 23B).
- Piety and Impiety: The charge of impiety is complicated by Socrates’ monotheistic leanings and deference to the Oracle, contrasting with the polis’ polytheistic piety, which ties to political stability (26B-27C, 37B-C).
- Philosophy vs. Poetry: Meletus, a poet, and the legacy of Aristophanes highlight a conflict where philosophy seeks disciplined truth, while poetry relies on inspiration, with Socrates critiquing poets for not understanding their own insights (22C, 43B-C).
- Socrates’ Refusal to Charge Fees: By never charging a fee (19E), Socrates distinguishes himself from sophists, emphasizing his pursuit of truth over profit, living in poverty as a sacrifice for his divine mission (23B, 52B-C).
- Democracy vs. the Great-Souled Man: Socrates’ trial reflects a natural antagonism between the democratic demos’ leveling equality and the great-souled man’s excellence, as Brophy cites Tocqueville and Nietzsche on democracy’s tendency toward mediocrity (28A, 49B-C).
- Pedagogical Approach: Socrates’ measured responses, giving “crumbs” or “milk before wine,” aim to lead the assembly toward wisdom gradually, reflecting his role as a pedagogue rather than a sophist (39C, 43B).
Quotes from the Transcript:
- Fr. Justin Brophy: “Philosophy isn’t locking oneself in a room… it forces you to reevaluate… the regime… the principles of law and… your culture. And that can be dangerous."
- Deacon Harrison Garlick: “To what degree can a civilization survive someone like Socrates or someone like Christ arising?"
- Fr. Justin Brophy: “You your sons are rich in monetary wealth, but they’re the ones who are poor in what matters. And I may be poor in material wealth, but I am wealthy in what matters."
- Deacon Harrison Garlick: “The problem with poetry is that it’s being presented by poets who don’t actually understand the perennial truths."
Additional Notes:
- The episode situates the Apology within the broader context of Ascend’s chronological reading of the Great Books, following Homer, Hesiod, and the Greek playwrights, with prior episodes on First Alcibiades and Euthyphro.
- Fr. Brophy’s love for Plato stems from reading the Republic as a freshman, which “completely raised the foundations of everything that I thought I knew," influencing his intellectual and spiritual journey.
- The discussion draws parallels between Socrates’ trial and broader philosophical questions, such as the role of the great books in confronting existential questions like death, which “AI can’t do for you."
Next Episode: Tune in next week for the second half of Plato’s Apology, where Fr. Brophy returns to explore Socrates’ reflections on death, piety, and the soul, continuing the discussion of this foundational Western text.