Ascend - The Great Books Podcast Tyranny v Philosophy: Part Two of Plato's Gorgias with Dr. Matthew Bianco
Nov 18, 2025
Dr. Matthew Bianco, a Plato scholar and COO at the Circe Institute, delves into the captivating dialogue of Plato's Gorgias, highlighting Socrates' battle against rhetoric perceived as mere flattery. He uncovers the pastry-baker analogy, suggesting that rhetoric can heal or deceive the soul. The conversation explores the nature of justice, proposing that committing injustice is worse than suffering it. Bianco and Garlick also debate whether tyrants wield true power, asserting that wisdom, not mere domination, defines real strength.
02:27:33
War For Souls: Tyranny Vs. Philosophy
- Plato's Gorgias frames a cultural war between tyranny and philosophy over young souls in Athens.
- Socrates argues rhetoric divorced from philosophy trains rulers toward gratification, not true justice or happiness.
From Skeptic To Plato Enthusiast
- Matthew Bianco recounts first reading Plato in 2011 and initially holding anti‑Plato views.
- His PhD work reading many dialogues turned that into a deep appreciation and love for Plato.
Republic As A Map Of The Soul
- Bianco summarizes his dissertation as: what would education look like if we took the Republic seriously?
- He treats the Republic primarily as a diagnosis of the soul, then applies that analogy to education.
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Intro
00:00 • 2min
Why Read Plato's Gorgias?
01:50 • 2min
Matthew Bianco's Platonic Formation
03:50 • 4min
What Would Education Look Like If We Took the Republic Seriously?
07:35 • 3min
Which Dialogues Help Teach Plato?
10:16 • 10min
Does Socrates Use Rhetoric or Reject It?
19:48 • 2min
How Do Orthodox Christians Relate to Plato?
21:47 • 10min
Why the Gorgias Belongs in the Canon
31:54 • 5min
Is the Gorgias a War for Souls?
37:18 • 4min
Who Is Polus and What Does His Name Signal?
41:18 • 3min
Is Gorgias a Tyrant or an Ignorant Teacher?
43:54 • 15min
What Craft Is Rhetoric?
59:23 • 3min
Can Rhetoric Be Saved by Philosophy?
01:02:20 • 4min
Why Does Socrates Tailor His Questions to Polus?
01:05:51 • 3min
Why Compare Rhetoric to Pastry Baking?
01:08:39 • 3min
Why Do Crowds Prefer Flattery Over Medicine?
01:11:30 • 2min
Does Gorgias Want the Conversation to Continue?
01:13:37 • 4min
What Goods Correspond Between Soul and Body?
01:17:19 • 3min
How Does Plato's Critique of Poetry Mirror Rhetoric?
01:20:10 • 3min
Do Tyrants Really Have Power?
01:22:56 • 3min
What Is the Role of Intermediate Goods?
01:26:20 • 4min
Does Plato Discuss a Human Will?
01:30:41 • 7min
How Do Virtues Perfect the Soul?
01:37:39 • 6min
How Much Can a Teacher Convert a Soul?
01:43:30 • 4min
Why Does Polus Keep Agreeing Yet Resist Conclusions?
01:47:26 • 7min
Is Committing Injustice Worse Than Suffering It?
01:54:14 • 12min
How Does Plato Define the Happiest Person?
02:05:48 • 6min
How Will Socrates Approach Callicles Next?
02:11:40 • 13min
Where to Find the Circe Institute and Events
02:24:30 • 2min
Outro
02:26:57 • 27sec
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Letters to My Sons, A Humane Vision for Human Relationships
A Humane Vision for Human Relationships
Matthew Bianco
#4775
• Mentioned in 8 episodes
Euthyphro
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Plato
Plato's "Euthyphro" is a short but significant dialogue that explores the nature of piety and the relationship between morality and divine will.
The dialogue centers on a conversation between Socrates and Euthyphro, who is prosecuting his own father for murder.
Socrates challenges Euthyphro's definition of piety, leading to a series of attempts to define the concept that ultimately fail.
The dialogue raises the famous Euthyphro dilemma: is something pious because the gods love it, or do the gods love it because it is pious?
This dilemma highlights the tension between divine command theory and the existence of objective moral truths.
"Euthyphro" is a classic example of Socratic questioning and its enduring relevance lies in its exploration of fundamental questions about morality and the nature of the divine.
#934
• Mentioned in 31 episodes
Republic
null
Plato
Plato's Republic is one of his most famous works, a philosophical dialogue exploring justice, ideal societies, and the nature of reality.
It features the allegory of the cave, a powerful metaphor for the limitations of human perception and the pursuit of knowledge.
The dialogue delves into various forms of government, analyzing their strengths and weaknesses, ultimately advocating for a philosopher-king to rule the ideal state.
The Republic also examines the tripartite soul, proposing that reason, spirit, and appetite must be harmonized for individual and societal well-being.
Its enduring influence on political philosophy and ethics makes it a cornerstone of Western thought.
#2216
• Mentioned in 16 episodes
Phaedrus
Plato
#1398
• Mentioned in 23 episodes
Dante's Inferno
Dante Alighieri
Charles Eliot Norton
Inferno is the first part of Dante Alighieri's epic poem, The Divine Comedy.
It narrates Dante's fictional journey through the nine circles of Hell, guided by the ancient Roman poet Virgil.
The poem is an allegory representing the soul's journey towards God, starting with the recognition and rejection of sin.
Hell is depicted as a realm of those who have rejected spiritual values, with punishments fitting the sins committed.
The journey is a spiritual rescue mission initiated by Beatrice, who represents divine revelation and guides Dante through his spiritual growth and eventual readiness to leave sin behind.
#3476
• Mentioned in 10 episodes
Phaedo
Benjamin Jowett
Plató
In this dialogue, Plato presents his metaphysical, psychological, and epistemological views through the conversations of Socrates and his friends on the day of his execution.
The dialogue includes four arguments for the immortality of the soul, discussions on the theory of Forms, and Socrates' account of his final hours.
It is a key work in Plato's middle period, combining profound philosophy with a vivid narrative of Socrates' last day.
#168
• Mentioned in 103 episodes
Nicomachean Ethics
Aristotle
The Nicomachean Ethics is Aristotle's most renowned work on ethics, focusing on the science of the good for human life.
The text is divided into ten books and discusses the concept of eudaimonia, often translated as 'happiness' or 'flourishing,' which is achieved through living a virtuous life.
Aristotle argues that eudaimonia is an activity of the soul in accordance with virtue, emphasizing the importance of reason, moral virtues, and the pursuit of excellence.
The work also explores the division of the soul, the role of rationality in human life, and the ultimate goal of human activity, which is to achieve happiness through virtuous actions and a complete life.
#4435
• Mentioned in 8 episodes
Apology
Plato
Plato's *Apology* is a historical and philosophical account of Socrates' defense at his trial in 399 BCE. Socrates was charged with corrupting the youth and impiety, but instead of apologizing, he defended his actions as a philosopher, emphasizing his commitment to truth and virtue.
The dialogue captures Socrates' fearless reasoning and his reflections on mortality, leading to his eventual sentencing to death by drinking hemlock.
#6285
• Mentioned in 6 episodes
Gorgias
Plató
Gorgias es un diálogo de Platón que explora la naturaleza de la retórica, la justicia y el bien.
El diálogo presenta una discusión entre Sócrates y Gorgias, un sofista conocido por su habilidad retórica.
Platón critica la retórica vacía y argumenta que la verdadera justicia se basa en el conocimiento del bien.
Gorgias es un ejemplo de la crítica de Platón a la sofística y su búsqueda de la verdad.
Su impacto radica en su exploración de la retórica y su relación con la justicia.
#7506
• Mentioned in 5 episodes
Crito
Spence, Joseph
In 'Crito,' Plato presents a dialogue between Socrates and his friend Crito, who tries to persuade Socrates to escape from prison.
The dialogue delves into themes of justice, duty, and the moral obligations of citizens towards their state.
Socrates argues that he must obey the laws of Athens, even if they are unjust, because he has benefited from them throughout his life.
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the Mino
null
Plato
'Meno' is a Socratic dialogue primarily concerned with the question of whether virtue can be taught.
Meno initially proposes several definitions of virtue, which Socrates refutes, leading Meno to express his famous paradox: If one doesn't know what virtue is, how can one inquire into it?
Socrates addresses this paradox by introducing the theory of recollection, suggesting that learning is actually remembering what the soul already knows.
The dialogue explores the nature of knowledge, belief, and how true opinions can guide right action.
Ultimately, 'Meno' raises profound questions about epistemology and moral understanding.
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the First Alcibiades
Plato
#4302
• Mentioned in 9 episodes
Homer's odyssey
Gwen Cooper
Homer's Odyssey is a memoir by Gwen Cooper that chronicles her life with a blind cat named Homer.
Despite being born without eyes, Homer grows into a spirited and loving companion who faces numerous challenges, including surviving the aftermath of 9/11 and defending his home against an intruder.
Through Homer's adventures, Cooper reflects on the profound impact he had on her life, teaching her about courage, love, and living beyond limitations.
Today on Ascend: The Great Books Podcast, Dcn. Harrison Garlick and Dr. Matthew Bianco of the Circe Institute discuss the second part of Plato's Gorgias--the dialogue between Socrates and Polus—Gorgias’ spirited, “colt-like” student who bursts in at 461b accusing his own teacher of being “too ashamed” to admit rhetoric needs no justice, only the power to persuade.
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What follows is pure Platonic fireworks: Socrates refuses long speeches, forces short questions, and delivers the unforgettable pastry-baker analogy (462–466a), branding rhetoric as mere flattery—like cookery or cosmetics for the soul—that “has no speech to give about the nature of the things” (465a). Polus agrees with several premises yet recoils when Socrates concludes that doing injustice is worse than suffering it, and the unpunished tyrant is the unhappiest man alive (478–479).
The conversation spirals into a shocking vision of punishment as medicine for the soul: the wrongdoer should run to the judge “as to a doctor” (480b). Throughout, the hosts explore whether rhetoric itself is evil or only rhetoric divorced from philosophy, using the tripartite soul as a foothold—Gorgias as corrupted intellect, Polus as honor-craving thumos, Callicles (next week) as unashamed appetite—while Socrates models a just soul governing all three.
Dr. Bianco brings fresh insight into Socrates’ tailored pedagogy and the happiness that only a philosophical rhetoric can truly serve.
Key Themes & Search Tags:
• Plato's Gorgias
• Polus
• Rhetoric vs Philosophy
• Tripartite Soul
• Doing injustice vs suffering injustice
• Punishment as medicine
• Pastry-baker analogy
• Classical Education
• Socrates pedagogy
• Pleonexia
• Happiness eudaimonia