The Burnt Toast Podcast

Welcome to Indulgence Gospel After Dark!🧈🧈🧈It’s time for your June Extra Butter! Today we are giving you a behind-the-scenes look at how we make Burnt Toast. And yes, finally addressing some of the butter-related Internet rumors about Virginia’s personal life. 🧈🧈🧈To listen to the full episode and read the full transcript, you’ll need to join Extra Butter, our premium subscription tier. THIS WEEK ONLY, Extra Butter is on sale for just $75 per year!In addition to these monthly episodes (where we get into the GOOD stuff like why all the fat influencers are getting skinny, is Kids Eat In Color anti-diet? and post-divorce bodies), you’ll also get a comp to Cult of Perfect, occasional live thread discussions, and (coming soon!) dedicated Friday Threads.Plus Extra Butter ensures that the Burnt Toast community can always stay an ad- and sponsor-free space—which is crucial for body liberation journalism. Join us here!(Questions? Glitches? Email me all the details)PS. If Extra Butter isn’t the right tier for you, remember that you still get access behind almost every other paywall with a regular paid subscription.Extra Butter Episode 4 TranscriptCorinneToday is a really special episode of Extra Butter because we are celebrating three years of Burnt Toast. Virginia, can you believe it has been three years?VirginiaIt feels like it’s been forever and also no, not at all. It’s wild.CorinneHow are you celebrating?VirginiaProbably buy a plant. CorinneOh, yeah. I was going to say brownies. Or cake. VirginiaOh, I should see if my mom wants to make me a butter cake!CorinneOh my God. Yes!VirginiaFor people that don’t know, my mother is an amazing cake baker, and we have a family tradition where she takes requests to make elaborate cakes for many occasions, including the dumpling cake she just made for my sister’s baby shower. CorinneIt was extremely cute.VirginiaYeah, so three years is very cool and weird. We have definitely grown in ways I could not have predicted when I decided I was going to turn on paid subscribers. We had 700 people on the list. Now there are over 54,000. I have to not think about the numbers too much sometimes. It’s a big stage. But it’s it’s exciting! And I’m excited to dish a little today about how we make it happen. So we’re going to talk about how the podcast is made, we’re going to reflect a little bit on where we started, where we’ve come from, the journey of Burnt Toast. And we’re going to talk a little bit about the recent New York Times profile. CorinneI thought the best place to start might be to talk a little bit about how Burnt Toast started. How did you get the idea to start a Substack? How did you know about Substack? What was your vision for the newsletter?VirginiaWell, I have to give credit to who is the pre-you. She was my research assistant who worked with me a lot on my first book and various articles and things. We were doing a newsletter to market my first book on TinyLetter, but Jessica is younger and cooler than me and writes a great environmental Substack called Pinch of Dirt that I encourage folks to check out. It’s very fun, especially if you like lots of hiking and nature writing. So Jessica was like, “The youths are on Substack.” And I was like, “What is a Substack.”She migrated the list from TinyLetter over to Substack and helped me figure out what we were doing. And I remember her saying, sort of in passing at that point, “Oh and lot of people are turning on paid subscriptions and maybe you’ll want to do that sometime.” And at that point, I was still locked into “I write for mainstream media outlets.” I was just like, no, why would I do that? And then I started following a lot of Substacks, and reading more and it became, Wait, why would I not do this? Because I was also becoming increasingly frustrated with doing the kinds of stories I wanted to do at mainstream media outlets. And then I lost two big anchor clients in 2019 and 2020. I’d been writing a column about kids and food and body image for the New York Times Parenting section. And I had been doing a lot of work for Medium. Medium was great. I had great editors there and they would let me do pretty in-depth diet culture investigations, but then they changed their whole structure and were like, “LOL we don’t pay writers anymore.”I was like, “Well, it’s interesting because I am a writer who still needs to be paid, so that won’t work.”Then The Times reorganized and cut my column, which is just the perennial freelancer thing where you have a couple of anchor clients, they run their course and then you pivot and start hustling up some new anchor clients. And I had been doing this for almost 20 years, I was so tired. This was also January 2021. That’s when I was like, Let’s make Burnt Toast into a thing. I spent about six months working on it before I turned on paid subscriptions that June.CorinneAnd how did the podcast start? Did you always know that that was in the future of Burnt Toast?VirginiaNo, not at all. I would have told you when I started, “I’m absolutely never doing a podcast.” My best friend and I had done a podcast together, Comfort Food. We did 80-something episodes and it was really fun, but we made zero dollars on it. It cost us quite a lot of money to make because we had to pay an audio editor, and it was just a ton of time.It’s really hard to start an independent podcast and make money at it, because you have to get your numbers so big to get advertisers interested, or to get picked up by a podcasting network. Podcasting as an industry has gotten really messy.So during 2020 when both of us had no childcare we were like, “we have got to put Comfort Food to bed,” which was the right decision. I really liked making a podcast, but I was like, “There’s no way to do it that makes financial sense for my life.” Maybe in retirement or something. But soon after I became working on Burnt Toast more wholeheartedly, Substack was like, “We are in the podcasting game!” And because they knew I’d done a podcast, they reached out and were like, you should really do a podcast for Burnt Toast. And I was like, no thank you, I would not like to do that. But then they covered the cost of Tommy, our amazing audio engineer, for the first year. So I knew I could make it sound good. And Tommy is amazing to work with and makes it so much easier.Also: Part of what makes a successful Substack is publishing multiple times a week. I cannot churn out a reported essay or a first-person essay more than once a week. Honestly even that is a big lift, so I knew that I needed another type of content in the mix.But I would say for at least the first year, I was still like, is the podcast working? Or is this just so much more work? Are we getting anything out of it? Once we were able to start adding paywalls to the podcast episodes, it started to make a lot more sense to do. Because it’s impossible to grow an independent podcast to big numbers, but if you already have your newsletter community, then it’s a different thing. So we’re never going to be Maintenance Phase—and we’re not trying to be Maintenance Phase. It’s a different model. Then of course once I started making it with you—I think that was the other point where I was like, “Well now I really want to make the podcast.” It’s so much more fun to do it with someone.CorinneIt has been really fun! Should we talk a little bit about how the podcast and newsletter get made? VirginiaOr how many texts I send you a week?CorinneI mean, texting works for me. How do you find people to bring on the podcast?VirginiaYou and I are constantly brainstorming. You’ll see something, I’ll see something. We do get pitched a lot, too, but I think we’re a hard podcast to pitch. I get sent a lot of books, so I’m always looking at authors. And we want to support other fat activists and other feminists and folks working in these same spheres. Then also, we’ll get a reader question and we’ll be like, oh, who would be a good expert to answer that? Or like some crazy fatphobic thing happens in the media, right? CorinneA news thing.VirginiaWe’ve started having editorial meetings now, too. So we’re more official. That’s an exciting recent development since our retreat. We stepped it up.CorinneHow does production flow work? Like, once we have like an idea for a podcast? We kind of plan out like, “this week we’ll be running Indulgence Gospel.” And then how do we make it happen?VirginiaWe go over the calendar together in our editorial planning meetings, which are twice a month, plus we text all the time. I’m usually booking guest interviews, like one or two a month, whenever I’m like, crap, we’ve run out of guest interviews. Let me go book some more. You and I record Mondays. Any Monday we’re not having a meeting, we’re recording an episode.Before we record, one of us writes an outline for the episode. If I’m interviewing a guest, I write up interview questions. For Indulgence Gospel, one of us dumps it all, all the questions we’re going to answer into a Google Doc. And then we record and then we send Tommy our recording files and Tommy puts them together through his wizardry into a master file. Then Corinne heroically wrestles that into a transcript using Otter. She doesn’t have to hand transcribe the entire interview. But AI still gives you plenty to do, I think.CorinneYes, we use an AI transcription service that transcribes the recordings and then I go through and make it actual words. VirginiaBecause whenever I interview another white lady, it doesn’t know who’s talking, and that kind of thing.CorinneI divide up who’s talking when and put in the names. I make it make sense. And then I will also just go through and mark where we should cut stuff, like asides in the conversation or somebody saying um six times—that’s usually me.VirginiaOr “Absolutely, absolutely.”CorinneOr someone’s dog is barking, things like that. Then I send it back to Tommy and Virginia.VirginiaAnd then I go through and do another ruthless pass where I’m usually meanest to myself. I’m trying to cut out all my Valley Girl speech so my mother doesn’t text me too much about how many times I say like and um and you know. Then Tommy’s always the nicest about it, and he’s like, “No, we don’t have to cut that many!”Are you used to the sound of your own voice? CorinneNo.VirginiaI’m pretty used to it but there are things I say that when I’m listening back—CorinneYeah, the things I say over and over again drive me crazy. When I’m editing the transcript for myself, I do think I’m way harsher. VirginiaI think we’re harshest on ourselves. Sometimes Corinne will cut something and I’ll be like, no, put that back because that’s funny. But most of the time, it’s like cut, cut, cut, cut, cut. Get it down to something we can use. Then Tommy takes the Google Doc with all of the cuts and he makes those cuts in the audio file, and sends it back to us to approve. Meanwhile, Corinne is getting the cleaned up transcript into Substack. You do a lot of work there. CorinneYes, I edit it again to try and make it more readable. I take out even more weird verbal tics to make it easier to read.VirginiaIt’s interesting that editing for reading is actually different than editing for audio. You can leave in more verbal tics with audio because they’ll go by fast. But in a sentence that your eyes are going to go over, you have to take out all the likes and pauses and things. CorinneThen I add photos and links.VirginiaAnd I do another pass on it. So this is every episode. The recording happens whenever we can schedule with people, but then this process we’re talking about is spread out over the week before the episode runs. So on Wednesdays, which is the day before the episode runs, Tommy gets us the final audio. Corinne has the transcript draft in Substack. And I spend an hour or two doing a final pass and schedule it.Transcripts are a ton of work, so I’m really glad so many of you do read them. It’s probably the thing we spend the most hours on, the bulk of the work. Which is weird to think about. And then, at the same time that we’re keeping a podcast going, we’re also always working on whatever essay I’m running on the Tuesday. That’s its own process. Usually a week before, I’m panic texting Corinne, “What am I writing about? What is that story idea I told you about three weeks ago that maybe I should write about but I forgot what it was?” And we brainstorm and then I write a draft and try to get you the draft by Thursday afternoon is my goal. And then you edit it. CorinneI read through the draft and put it in Substack, make any notes for Virginia, and add photos. VirginiaThen Monday I do my final obsessive editing and we do a lot of texting about headlines usually. That’s a big focus. Headlines cannot be written alone. You need a sounding board.CorinneYou’ve really become a Substack Headline expert, I feel.VirginiaReally? Thank you. Years of  women’s magazine training. CorinneYes, that makes sense. VirginiaIt translates. So we do a lot of thinking about headlines and paywall placement.CorinneNow that you’ve been doing this for three years, I’m curious how things have changed. How is the podcast different now than it was when you started? How is the newsletter different?VirginiaThe most fun difference is that now I do it with you! So, Jessica, who I adore, left and—when did she leave? CorinneI was just thinking about that! I didn’t realize the podcast hadn’t been going on for now very long, because I think I started in October 2021. VirginiaSo the first six months I was just muddling along. I had Jessica, who was fantastic. But this is less her world. She is a really amazing environmental reporter. So when Corinne came on board, I realized, having someone work on the newsletter with me who was also very in the community and gets the issues, would be so fun and useful. And I think makes this work a lot more collaborative and creatively satisfying. I really love that. So the podcast is something we’ve really grown together at this point. Indulgence Gospel has become its own thing and that’s the last year really.CorinneI mean, also, when I started I had a full-time day job, while also doing SellTradePlus.VirginiaYeah. And then when you left your day job, you were like, “Okay, I want to do more with this.” That transitioned us into a different thing, which has been really cool. So that’s a really big change. I think the other thing that I just did not predict and that’s so wonderful is the community! When you write for mainstream media outlets, you know who your reader is in this very abstract way. Women’s magazines would always be like, “our girl shops at The Gap.” And “our girl is career-focused!” There was this marketing rhetoric around who your reader was, what brands she shopped at, how many kids she had, whatever. That was helpful to a point, but not actually reflective of a real human being. The only other job I ever had that felt even remotely close to this was Seventeen Magazine, where teenagers did write to us all the time and as an editorial assistant, a big part of my job was answering reader emails. So I did talk to our readers and really feel connected to them. And I always missed that at every other place I ever wrote for. Especially as a freelancer, you’re just writing the piece. You’re not thinking as much about who the reader is, that’s the editor’s job. So when I started writing a Substack, I was intrigued by the idea that people were building these communities, but I did not think I would be very good at that. I did not think this would be something that people would want from me. I remember doing my first thread and being like, “Well, this will be awkward. No one wants to talk.” And it turns out, a lot of people love to talk! We have our regulars who I feel like I’m really getting to know in the comments section. And that is just spectacular to me and makes me feel really proud of the thing we’re all building together, you know? CorinneIt’s so interesting because in a lot of traditional media, like, for example, The New York Times, the comment sections are such a horrible place. And the comment section on Substack or on Burnt Toast specifically is so great. VirginiaSo lovely. I mean, obviously, the fact that we limit it to paid subscribers helps. We just don’t have drive-by trolls very frequently. We have occasionally been like, “Well that person paid $5 just to yell at us.” And you know what, okay. We’ll take your five bucks. But that’s maybe three times total.And whenever I do go out into the rest of the world, the response is so different. So it’s a real safe haven for me to have Burnt Toast. I always say, as a mom, my favorite thing is my kids’ relationship with each other and how that doesn’t really have anything to do with me. But I’ll just be like, oh my gosh, my kids! when they’re playing together. It makes me so happy. And my favorite favorite thing on Burnt Toast is when the comment section kind of takes on a life of its own and people are talking to each other, giving recs or when we did the where are you from post and people are organizing meetups. Like, what! That stuff makes me so happy. I’m just like, yes. Talk amongst yourselves. Find each other! That’s not something I ever thought I would be good at facilitating, or it’s not something I’d ever thought about doing, but it’s so satisfying.CorinneWhat about the scope of subject matter? Are there things we are talking about now that you’ve never thought you’d be writing about?VirginiaThere are two answers to that. I mean, one is that I initially thought I would only be able to write about body image, eating disorders, weight and health, like Health at Every Size, that sort of niche set of topics. And it’s fun that I’ve been able to be like, “Sometimes I’m going to do a gardening essay!” And obviously when we do reader surveys, it’s not like the most popular topic is the gardening content. But people are sort of happy to go along with like, oh, what conversation does Virginia want us to have? Sure, let’s talk about Stanley Cups. Let’s talk about 1000 Hours Outside, whatever. So that has been really satisfying Not that there was anything wrong with those core topics, but you can get to a point on a beat where you feel like you’re repeating yourself. Or like, “Am I really helping if we always come back to that?” So it’s fun, creatively, to be able to go in other directions. Then the other thing is, I come from what’s called service journalism. Every story you write for a women’s magazine or a parenting outlet, even if it’s an essay, not a reported feature, has to have a takeaway for the reader. It has to have some tips or some service sidebars. So I’m just used to thinking of my writing as something that’s going to help people do X, Y, and Z.And that’s wonderful. This is not me hating on service journalism at all, I think it’s a really valuable genre of writing. But I’ve been interested over the last year in particular, the pieces that are getting the biggest responses are not that. It is more stuff like the Stanley Cup piece did great, or the Huberman Husband essay, which isn’t me telling you how to feed your kids or how to do a thing. It’s just cultural analysis. It’s a think piece, I guess. And those are super satisfying and hard and challenging for me to write, in a really good way. I talked about this a little bit in the piece I wrote about the response the snack cabinet got. I don’t know if I want to say I’ve been getting it wrong, but I think me giving a lot of prescriptive advice about how to feed kids was always a little bit of a wrong turn. Does that make sense?CorinneI mean, yes. Say more.VirginiaWell, I think if we’re primarily here to work on advancing fat rights, then that’s a complicated topic. Because the personal is political. And the way you talk about food and your family dinner table does impact how your kids feel about their bodies and about other people’s bodies. So it is a place of doing activism. But because we also think of how we feed our kids as this health and nutrition issue, there was this kind of problematic thing of people applying a layer of “Virginia should be teaching us how to raise healthy eaters.” And that’s not my job or what I care about or what I’m qualified to do. I think this also speaks to my own evolution, as I’ve become more engaged in fat activism specifically, as opposed to just anti-diet culture more broadly. My first book is much more—I mean, it is an explanation of how we eat. So I’m not like, “How dare people think I have opinions about how we eat!” I wrote this book called The Eating Instinct. I get it. But I think that was part of me grappling with these larger conversations and then in response, I was getting asked really specific questions about what do I do when my kid doesn’t eat vegetables? I don’t think I was ever the right person to answer that question.CorinneYeah, that makes sense. Like, because you wrote a book about eating, people look to you as an expert for advice. And then at some point, giving advice is almost at odds with the larger conversation about body autonomy. VirginiaAnd even that first book is a cultural exploration. It’s not a prescriptive “this is how to feed your kids” book.CorinneYou’re not a public health professional or a nutritionist.VirginiaI mean, I know you really want me to write about my snack cabinet.CorinneAs a person with no kids, I do just find that stuff weirdly fascinating. Probably because I don’t have to face it on a daily basis!VirginiaI mean, I don’t mind sharing with Extra Butter that when I wrote the essay about, "why is everyone trolling my snack cabinet?” I did first write a whole piece explaining, "here’s how I really use my snack cabinet.” And then I was like, “I’m not running it.” And Corinne was like, “Ok but can we run it next week?”CorinneI think deep down all of us just want someone to tell us what to do sometimes.VirginiaBut my whole thing is…that’s diet culture, right?CorinneThat’s what we’re getting at. Advice and body liberation sometimes are at odds. VirginiaThey really are. And I don’t think I understood that. Certainly not when I was writing and promoting my first book, but even in the first year or two of Burnt Toast I think I was still sorting that out. And- the places where people are going to get granular advice about how to feed their kids are often so saturated in diet culture and anti-fatness. So we do really need an another model. And I think those sources exist. I think it’s How to Raise an Intuitive Eater by Amee Severson and Sumner Brooks. I think it’s the most recent edition of Intuitive Eating. I am not the person to give those tools. I am more of the person to be like, “This is what it’s like trying to execute those tools in my own messy life.” And, “Oh, it’s not working for me. I don’t know what else we do.” And, “Let’s talk more broadly about this cultural message.” I’m here to talk about the culture of it, not the what do I think you should be doing? But I have veered into that lane at times. So I think I want to be doing less of that, even though I’m glad that there are some solid resources, like all those Burnt Toast Guides we made. I’m glad to have all that there, if it’s useful to people. But I just don’t want to be put in that box anymore, I guess. CorinneWell, and I think the guides aren’t prescriptive advice really. They’re like, “Here’s a bunch of stuff you could consider.”VirginiaThen I think the other thing is just, I feel like we have a lot more fun on Burnt Toast now. There’s more humor.I do really value deep dives into research on weight and health. I think it’s very, very important. I’m very grateful to someone likeRagen Chastainwho is doing it every single week. And I think I initially thought that’s where readers wanted me to stay. Like, let me explain again why the BMI is trash. Let me explain again causation versus correlation. And, again, I’m glad we have a lot of resources about that on the Substack. I think that’s really helpful. I’m glad we’ve done episodes about that.And I’m glad that I can sometimes write about this TikTok thing or let’s do a style challenge. Maybe that’s, again, the women’s magazine person in me who has always been like, I want to do a little more of everything and have there be fun in it, too.CorinneYeah, that makes sense. VirginiaYou have helped me figure that out a lot, too. Corinne is very fun is what I’m saying.CorinneExtremely fun.What have been some highlights from the past three years? Any guest interviews that have really stuck with you?VirginiaOh, man. This is like when someone asks what you’re reading and your mind just goes blank. I want to know yours first. CorinneOne for me that really stands out is Jessica Wilson. When I listened to her, I was just like, wow, my mind is really changing.VirginiaThat was one of the conversations that shifted me. I really don’t want to be giving prescriptive advice after she pointed out how much our own identities and biases impact the kind of advice we think we should give. When she was like, “Eating disorder treatment doesn’t work for Black women because this is a necessary part of survival,” I was just like, “Oh, okay, I truly know nothing. I can tell people nothing.” That was a really great one.More recently, I’m very partial to the episode about American Girl dolls. CorinneYeah, that was incredible. VirginiaWe definitely do talk about diet culture and how there has not been a fat American Girl doll. That’s important. And we looked at my childhood trauma around Samantha.CorinneWhich was really fun. VirginiaWith many embarrassing family photos. That was a really good one. Another really fun one I loved that was also super useful was Martinus Evans. He’s just a delight. So fun to talk to. And anytime we attack the fitness industrial complex, I feel like I’ve done a good day’s work.CorinneHe was a great podcast guest. I also have really enjoyed some of the authors like Crystal Maldonado. Even when I haven’t read their books. Like, I haven’t read any Crystal’s books. They’ve been on my list for a long time.VirginiaThey are a treat. CorinneI’m sure I will love them. But just really interesting to hear what she has to say even if you haven’t.VirginiaI’m glad you say that. Listeners should know that author interviews are the lowest performers usually. And it really breaks my heart, as an author and someone who’s here to help platform these other really important authors doing good work. I’ve been starting to think about, how do we change up the format of bringing authors on the show?It doesn’t make sense to me, because when we do Friday Threads about books, they are super popular. We are a community of readers. People want to share what they are reading and talk about books. And for whatever reason, the author interviews tend to be some of the lower downloaded ones. I don’t know what it is.CorinneI always wonder if it’s like, people don’t want to listen if they haven’t read the book yet? VirginiaMaybe we need to be clear about no spoilers? But I mean, Fresh Air! Terry Gross interviews authors all the time. CorinneYeah, it’s true. There are podcasts, though, where if I’m just dipping in, I want to listen to someone that I’ve heard of.VirginiaI think it’s also a tension with podcasts, especially when you have a format like ours, where sometimes it’s two hosts chatting and sometimes it’s guest interviews. I think the two hosts chatting often works against the guest interviews because people are like, but I want to hear the friends hang out! I want to hang out with you guys! And then the new person comes in. And everyone’s like, “Well, I don’t know about this new person.” That’s not author specific. That’s just guest specific. Like, even though guest episodes are always free and so the whole list can get them and our episodes are always paywalled, we get way more comments on Indulgence Gospel episodes than we do on guest interviews. I think it’s just it’s fun to chat with your friends.CorinneDo you have a favorite essay that you’ve written?VirginiaI really love a piece I wrote last summer about going to The Plaza with my younger kid and digging into the history of Kay Thompson and understanding Eloise as a kind of radical feminist while also a problematic white lady. It’s all there. That was maybe a little bit of a quieter essay, but it just was such a joy to write. It was really fun doing the research for that one and understanding how are we manufacturing girlhood? How are we marketing this pink princess concept when in fact Eloise is not any of that?CorinneThat was a cool one for me, too, because I got to look up old photos of her and that was really fun. VirginiaYeah, good photo research. What about you? Any essays?CorinneI like the ones about eating dinner. VirginiaThe ones I just said I’m not writing anymore?CorinneYeah. Like dinner table rules and reading at dinner.  VirginiaNotes on Single Mom Dinner? I do like that piece because I feel like I captured a little bit that feels like a scrapbook for me. I’ll read that in 10 years and be like, oh,that year when we were reading at the dinner table. I have affection towards it. I don’t know, I’m curious to hear what other folks think about this. CorinneI think what part of what I like about those is is not that it’s prescriptive advice, but that I’m peeking into how other people do stuff. I’m not a parent. I just think it’s interesting to see what other people are doing. And I feel like sometimes how people are feeding their kids is helpful for me in feeding myself. VirginiaI hear that. I’m curious to hear what other people think about that stuff. I think I’m feeling, as I said in the piece about the snack cabinet, like I cannot keep explaining myself to the world, as a fat mom being asked to justify that. And if I had written a piece about “look how healthy we are like, look what a good job I’m doing,” then that doesn’t make space for the fact that you can be a really good mom who’s not making healthy dinners. Fat people don’t have a moral obligation to do all of that.CorinneRight. And you have faced way more scrutiny than any normal person does, or should have to.VirginiaIt’s hard for me to tell how much is me responding to that, versus how much am I really feeling like this doesn’t align with my fat activism body liberation values. But I do think there’s a little tension there that I’m still trying to figure out how to navigate as a writer.But those dinner pieces are fun to write.CorinneOkay! Let’s talk about The New York Times article.I’m curious to hear a little of the background on how that came to be. How did it work? How much time did this person spend with you? How does being profiled work?VirginiaThis was definitely the most in-depth experience I’ve ever had. I’ve been profiled a few other times and it can vary from basically a 30-minute Zoom conversation with someone to much more time intensive. When The Cut profiled me before the book came out, Erica Schwiegershausen came and spent the day with me as well. We went to lunch and then the photoshoot was happening at the same time. We were just chatting extensively throughout. So it was an interview/photoshoot combo and it was like five hours. And I really loved how that piece turned out.CorinneWas she recording you the whole time?VirginiaYes. I’ve been on the journalist side of this, too and I want to say, it’s very tiring reporting. You do record. You bring your phone, some people bring a backup recorder as well. And you still take some notes while you’re talking to them. But you’re really just listening super intensely trying to figure out what you’re going to be able to use and where you need to follow up. Then you have to go home and go through just hours and hours of recording to find what’s good. There’s often a lot of nonsense.When I used to do a lot more in person reporting, pre-COVID, I would always just be so stressed out. Because often the best conversation would be happening when we’re in a restaurant and it’s really loud. And then I’m like, I’m not getting the recording! Try to remember, try to remember. It’s an exhausting day, on both sides. For The Times piece, we had a pretty extensive conversation off-record ahead of time discussing what the piece would be, and what my boundaries would be, and all of that. And then she came and spent about five hours at my house, first hanging out just with me, and then my kids got home from school, and she stayed through dinner. So she was around all afternoon till like seven o’clock. And then we had multiple follow up phone calls—like probably another four hours over multiple phone calls and texts. It’s a little odd having someone in your home. That feels vulnerable to me, always. And it’s a little awkward. She wanted to get this slice of life of me with my kids. So I was thinking the whole time, “Please have good days!” Like, no  judgment on my kids. Kids are allowed to have bad days. And I was like, “What if this is one of the days when a kid comes home and just needs to have a meltdown?” They deserve that privacy.I did talk to my kids quite a lot ahead of time. I asked, are you comfortable with having this person here? What ground rules do you have? What don’t you want talked about? I got a lot of consent from the kids ahead of time to make sure they felt okay about it. But there’s also the valid argument that children cannot give informed consent because they are minors. So for both of these in-person experiences, the reporters were absolutely lovely in person and really fun to hang out with. It was like talking to a friend. And again, I know as a journalist, you’re deliberately cultivating that atmosphere because people are much chattier and more open when they feel relaxed with you. So it’s very weird for me having been on both sides of it to notice like, oh, I’m getting relaxed and letting my guard down. They kind of want that to be happening. It’s strange. Very strange.CorinneWhen I think about that—because I’m not a journalist, I don’t have either of these experiences. But if I were trying to make someone relaxed, I’d be telling them my own personal stories. But none of that actually ends up in the profile! VirginiaThe Cut journalist did a lot of that. The Times reporter did much less of that, although still did some. I always did a lot of that when I would do in-person reporting because I think it does really build a lot of rapport. I mean, it’s a technique that’s taught in journalism school. Share a vulnerable story about yourself. And it is a strange thing because, yeah, that’s not going to end up in the piece. You’re artificially creating rapport with a total stranger. CorinneI feel like I would just be so exhausted. As an introvert, having someone stay with me? I can’t even.VirginiaYeah, I was tapped out. They’re in my home, so I’m hosting as well. I’ve written about my stress about hosting. So I definitely am like, cleaning my house really frantically beforehand. And thinking, am I offering them something to drink often enough? All of that social conditioning, gendered stuff is coming into play. It’s really intense. I can’t say I totally recommend it. CorinneYeah, that’s fair.VirginiaI think it also can be how you can do really important storytelling. Because you are seeing someone in their space. Just like what you were saying you like about when I write a piece about my family dinner. That enables the journalist to capture that same feeling of we’re in this person’s life with them. And it’s so satisfying. I kind of wish in a weird way that I’d had the experience of being profiled years and years ago—no one would have profiled me, I hadn’t done anything interesting. But it gave me a lot of empathy with my previous sources. Just to be like, oh, there are times where you just want this person to go. I just feel journalists should have to be on both sides of it. There’s a lot of value in that.CorinneThat’s a good point. Was there anything in the article that you felt really good about?VirginiaMy enviable hair.CorinneYes. You did get called out for your incredible hair. VirginiaI’m just glad it got appreciated. I mean, the photos are gorgeous. I really loved the photographer. That was fun. In terms of the rest: It’s a tricky thing, because we do have this privilege of being mostly in the Burnt Toast space these days, so if I go a few months without doing anything in the mainstream, I forget what the reception is going to be out there. I think I both took for granted, and was given reason to believe, that there was going to be a certain amount of empathy and respect for my work. And I didn’t feel was 100 percent communicated in the final piece. There were choices made in the framing of the final piece that felt more tuned towards what will stir up the comments section and what will get a lot of clicks and get this read. And I get it. That is also part of their job, right? Just like earlier, when you were like “you’re really good at Substack headlines.” The reason I’m really good at Substack headlines is because I have spent years as a journalist thinking of headlines that will make people want to read a story. So I think you’re always trying to do two things at once with a profile. You’re always trying to both do your subject justice, and empathetically and respectfully tell a story. And you’re trying to write a piece that people are going to want to read and share. Which increasingly, means a piece that is explosive in some way.And the ways they can make my story explosive—because I’m actually a fairly unexplosive, suburban mom feeding her children snack crackers—are to lean into how radical fat activism is, and to make us all sound a little unhinged, and lean into personal stories about the divorce, and all of that. I think the article is still a net positive in terms of a lot of new folks finding our community and more crucially, I hope, folks are finding body liberation work and fat activism who will benefit from it. And, the immediate fallout of a piece like that is exhausting to weather. CorinneDo you want to talk about any of the fallout? You got a lot of angry emails.VirginiaA lot of angry emails, and a lot of DMs. And I mean, the comment section itself—they had to close it after 800 comments and 95 percent of them were all wretched.CorinneWhen they close the comments, do they tell you they’re doing that? VirginiaOh, no, no, no. And it happened really fast. The piece went up at like 5am on a Sunday morning. And it just got a deluge. And then they closed it. I think they always close it when it reaches a certain amount, probably just so it doesn’t take down the website. This piece just hit that point very quickly, which was a bummer because I think if the comments had moved a little more slowly, maybe Burnt Toast readers or just folks in general who resonate with my work, would have gotten in there as well, and you would have seen more of a mix. But it was very quickly hit by the trolls and very quickly hit by the critics. And then there was no room or time for any other conversation. Jeannie Finlay talked about how it flares white hot and then it dies down. And I’ve been through the flare white hot moment a bunch of times in my career with a piece, or with the book launch last year. The difference this time was with this piece, a lot of the flaring white hot was personal attacks. Critiquing me as a journalist feels really different than making judgments about my kids’ health or my kids’ wellbeing, or should CPS be called, and am I abusing my children. It’s not that I even take it super personally. I know I’m a good mom. I don’t need random men on the Internet to understand that. But it’s more that there’s this itchy feeling of, they’re judging a kind of a character of me. They’re not actually even seeing my real life. They’re seeing my real life filtered through this journalist, filtered through The New York Times Well section, filtered through their own biases. They’re just responding to a funhouse mirror version of my life.CorinneI mean, I truly cannot believe how upset people were that you are giving your kids brownies.VirginiaI am sad for all the children who don’t get baked goods. I mean, of the the all the terrible things you can do to your children, I don’t think baking them brownies is even anywhere on the list. And then of course, we also had the very hilarious second tier coverage of the piece.CorinneWhat was that the headline that was so incredible?VirginiaNothing has made me laugh harder in a long time.CorinneThis is definitely something I didn’t understand until probably last year when your book was coming out. Somewhere like The Cut or The New York Times does an article and then conservative media just picks it up and twists it. VirginiaYes. So The Daily Mail ran a headline: “‘Fat Activist’”—in quotes, always in quotes—“Who Thinks Childhood Obesity Is a Myth Reveals How She Feeds Her Kids Dessert First After Divorcing Fitness Freak Husband Who Lost It When Their Daughter Ate a Stick of Butter.”CorinneI mean, put that on your gravestone. VirginiaI will never not laugh at it.CorinneHow does your ex-husband feel about being called “a fitness freak?”VirginiaI texted him a screenshot of it and he was literally on a run at that moment. He was like, “I see no lies.” I mean, I’m like “this should be our co-parenting Christmas card.” We have laughed about it quite a lot. He did for my birthday bring me a stick of butter with a candle on it and got me a butter knife that says “Keep Calm and Have More Butter.” It’s very cute. So it’s fine. We are fine. Our co-parenting relationship and friendship remains intact.CorinneTrue or false: The divorce was caused by butter.VirginiaI mean, it’s amazing that I have to explain this to the Internet. No, we did not get divorced over a stick of butter. It is true that one of our children—I don’t even know if they ate the entire stick. But they definitely picked up a stick of butter at the dinner table and chewed on it, the way one would eat cheese. They just really enjoyed this butter. And Dan was appalled by that. I was like, “Well, butter was on the table!” And I will die forever on the mountain of butter is basically cheese. To a two year old, it’s the same thing. CorinneI feel like almost every kid has a story about like, yeah, eating butter, as if it were cheese.VirginiaAnd that child, many years later, does still really enjoy butter and would like the butter to be visible. I gave them a bagel with butter for breakfast this weekend and the butter was melted into the bagel. And they were like, “Where’s the butter?” And I was like, I get it. You want the butter to have some presence. But they don’t eat sticks and sticks of it. This didn’t become some ongoing saga of our lives. It’s very funny that the Internet got so upset about that. So no, we did not get divorced over butter or even really have much of a fight over it. Because the piece did focus a lot on that question somehow. And there was a moment of the Internet speculating about our marriage. And I noticed that coming from corners of the Internet that weren’t just straightforward trolls. Like, not just people that I would expect to tear me apart. Bt people who I might have thought were kind of on my side, or that were in the same loose conversation.And I think I just want to say: A core value of body liberation is that you don’t owe anyone your body. And you also don’t owe anyone your life story. I know I have talked and written publicly about being divorced. That does not mean I owe the world any more than I want to say about it.CorinneYeah. I mean, I have never been married. But I have been through a few breakups. And how do you ever distill that down into one thing? VirginiaNo, it’s never one thing. CorinneEven if it were a stick of butter, it’s never just the stick of butter. I don’t know.VirginiaAnd it was not the butter.CorinneObviously.VirginiaIt’s super strange. And this assumption that somebody owes the world more of an explanation or more details than they feel safe giving—it’s just not allowing people to live their lives.CorinneYeah. I feel like it’s one of those things where people just want to know why you got divorced so they can know if they are going to get divorced, you know? They just want to be like, “I want to make sure whatever reason people break up isn’t something I’m doing.” VirginiaWell, I will say: If your kid eats a stick of butter, and your partner wants to call CPS on you, then you should divorce them. That is grounds for divorce. That is not what happened in my life. But if your partner responds the way one of my Internet trolls responded, over a child eating butter, that’s a red flag for you.CorinneYeah. I think I would break up with a partner if I found out that they were commenting stuff like that on the Internet. VirginiaIf you are married to an internet troll…CorinneDivorce them.VirginiaYou deserve better. We want better for you. I think that’s right. If you are married to one of the men who sends me emails calling me a spoiled fat cunt, we want better for you.CorinneOkay. Anything you’re excited about for Burnt Toast this year? Any upcoming changes? Anything you’re trying to accomplish this year?VirginiaWell, I think I’m most excited about . That is the project I am most excited about, Corinne having her own Substack that is in conversation with Burnt Toast. Part of our whole family, I don’t know if sister publication is right. We’ll figure out the right terms. CorinneSpider web? Anthill?VirginiaGarden?CorinneOh, that’s a good one. Garden. We like garden. VirginiaThe Burnt Toast garden is now growing Big Undies.CorinneThe tree has been planted.VirginiaDo you want to talk a little bit about that? Your hopes and dreams? I feel like this is like the new big thing.CorinneYeah, I’m excited. For a long time I have wanted to start a Substack and now seems to be the moment. I’m excited to be making some content about clothes that feels inclusive of different bodies. VirginiaI mean, I was just remembering anIndulgence Gospel many moons ago, we were talking about fashion bloggers. And you just said something about like, “It is perpetually annoying that I’m like, I like this fashion and I’m not going to be able to wear the clothes this person is talking about.” I just am really excited for this to be a place where that is not the case. We need more plus size fashion. You’re not only going to write about fat folks and clothes, but that’s always going to be foundational.CorinneYeah, I mean, that is my lens. VirginiaAnd we want to know, what particular types of clothes do you folks want Corinne to write about? What people who wear clothes that you love do you want to hear more about their style? Send Corinne your ideas and thoughts. Are you going to answer reader questions?CorinneI mean, remains to be seen! Probably? Maybe? Definitely!VirginiaIf you have fashion questions, you may now direct them to Corinne. I am super excited for that.CorinneI’m excited, too. VirginiaAnd over on Burnt Toast I think I’m obviously wrestling with this prescriptive versus not question. But I think the pieces that I’m most excited about are elucidating some phenomenon related to diet culture that helps us continue the divestment work and continue to figure out our own stance on things and our own thought process about stuff.We’re also doing a lot of brainstorming about theme weeks.CorinneI’m super excited about the theme stuff because it’s just nice to be able to look at something a little more like deeply, I guess. We have just done Fat Swim Week. We were talking about doing one in the fall—VirginiaFat travel!CorinneWe’re going to do fat travel.VirginiaSo, more themes. If there is stuff you guys want to hear about, we are here for it. And obviously at some point, I’ll have to do a deep dive butter taste testing. For my haters.ButterCorinneHell yeah. Do you have a Butter?VirginiaI do have a good Butter. I think I’ve talked about becoming a single mom and having only one coffee drinker in the house. So I had a whole journey to figure out my single lady, one cup of coffee solution, which is my little French press.And similarly, my children and I start every day with a big smoothie and I make it in my trusty Vitamix blender that I got as a refurbished blender back in 2014. This thing has been with me 10 years. I hope I get 10 more years out of it. We actually got it at a medical discount because we were using it to make blended food for my daughter’s feeding tube at that point. Vitamixes are expensive! But I’m telling you, I’ve been using a refurbished model for 10 years without any issues. It will stand the test of time. But it’s big. So when the kids go to their dad’s and I don’t need to make a 30-ounce smoothie every morning, I’ve been struggling with the proportions of how to make just the size I want. And then like making too much, and blueberries are expensive. So I just got a Ninja Portable Blender. And I’m so obsessed with it. I took it with us this weekend to Boston because I wasn’t sure if our Airbnb would have a blender and it did not. I was able to make us each individual smoothies in it every morning. It’s like a USB charger situation, so it doesn’t even need to be plugged in all the time. It’s just extremely powerful and effective. I could make my same smoothie, but just make an individual, one person, one portion. It’s holds 16 ounces and it’s super fast and blends really well. And it’s making me so happy. CorinneThat’s cool. Yeah, I definitely would never think that a cordless blender would be cutting it. VirginiaI was extremely skeptical. And I think this is a very diet culture a thing because I’m sure everyone’s using it to make their green smoothies. The marketing picture is people on a beach with it. And I’m not doing for any of those reasons. I just love my morning smoothie. And it’s a very satisfying way to make a one person smoothie without accidentally using a gallon of oat milk.CorinneI have that problem because I live alone. And if I ever want a smoothie, it’s too small for the Vitamix.VirginiaIt can’t work with it, because you didn’t give it enough liquid. This is what you need. What’s your Butter? CorinneI’m a sporadic coffee drinker, I go in and out of it, but when I was traveling recently and not wanting to deal with buying coffee, I got these little instant pour over coffee things from this brand called Copper Cow. It has this really cool little packet and you just like kind of rip off the top and then pour boiling water over it. Then the other really exciting thing is it’s this little pour over coffee and then it just comes with a little tube of sweetened condensed milk. It’s very delicious and easy and travel friendly.VirginiaOh my gosh, these looks so good. Look at us just giving you all a nice travel breakfast setup! That is really fun.---The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith (follow me on Instagram) and who runs @SellTradePlus and Big Undies—subscribe for 20% off.The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.Our theme music is by Jeff Bailey and Chris Maxwell.Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!I think I made a mistake calling these instant! It’s apparently “a pre-filled, single serve pour over.” The coffee does not dissolve! It just comes ready to go.

You’re listening to Burnt Toast!I’m Virginia Sole-Smith. Today I’m chatting with jenn romolini.Jenn is a longtime journalist and magazine editor. She co-hosts the podcast Everything Is Fine with Kim France and writes the Substack extended scenes. And Jenn’s new memoirAmbition Monsteris just out this week! Ambition Monster is a deeply personal memoir about workaholism, the addictive nature of ambition, and the humbling process of picking yourself up when the world lets you down. It’s an anti-girlboss tale for our times. And Jenn writes quite a lot in the book about her years in women’s magazines. So I asked her to come on so we could process some of our trauma together. We get into the very specific intersection of diet culture, perfectionism, and workaholism that we survived working in women’s media in the early 2000s and 2010s—which may feel like ancient history but a lot of that stuff is still with us.Ambition Monster is available in the Burnt Toast Bookshop!Don’t forget, you can always take 10 percent off that purchase if you also order (or have already ordered!) Fat Talk from Split Rock Books! (Just use the code FATTALK at checkout.)PS. If you’re enjoying the podcast, make sure you’re following us (it’s free!) in your podcast player! We’re on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, and Pocket Casts! And while you’re there, please leave us a rating or review. (We like 5 stars!)JennI’m Jenn Romolini. I’m a longtime writer and editor. I was at one point a Chief Content Officer. I’m former tech executive. And I had a professional crash in 2018, reassessed my entire life, got myself off the ladder I’d been on, and wrote a book about it called Ambition Monster. And now I am a podcaster and a writer. And that’s me. VirginiaYou co-host the Everything Is Fine podcast which is my every Monday morning “walk the dog and listen to Jenn and Kim” hour and I love it so much.JennI love it too. It’s a very fulfilling project. I think it’s fulfilling because that’s all we want. We just want it to be fulfilling, you know? That’s part of reassessing your feelings about work, what actually lights you up. That’s one of the things that lights me up.VirginiaThat’s something I’ve thought about a lot as I’ve listened to it over the years, both you and Kim both had these huge careers, you had visibility in lots of different ways. And every week it is the just two of you having so much fun together—like the way you crack each other up. You’re being so generous by inviting all of us into your friendship in this really beautiful way. This is what we want to be creating now. Fuck the ladder.JennExactly. And fuck looking for external validation, too. We don’t even really imagine that people are listening to the podcast, we’re doing it for us and then we’re happy that other people have come along. That’s a huge shift. And I think that’s a shift that only could have happened with age and experience.VirginiaSo tell us a little bit about Ambition Monster. I inhaled this book. I ignored my children. I was cooking dinner and letting things burn to keep reading—it’s that kind of reading experience. JennI’m happy to hear that you devoured it. I didn’t mean for you to burn dinner, but I’m happy to hear that it hit you like that. I want this to go off like a bullet. I want it to be fast because I wanted it to feel like an addiction memoir, and I wanted it to have the stakes of an addiction memoir and be building in that way, because that’s the way work felt for me. It was very toxic. I had a relationship with work that was really problematic, that sort of blotted out everything else in my life. And it was starting to ruin my life. It was ruining my relationships, it was ruining my health. It felt like an addiction like any other. So, I intentionally wrote it in that kind of pace that to feel like you feel when you’re in the throes of an addiction.VirginiaIt feels that way. You also take us into your whole family history. We’re right there in Philly, in your childhood.JennI didn’t want to have to expose so much of my personal life, but as I started writing about workaholism and ambition, it became very clear to me that I had to tell an origin story. I had to name the source of never feeling like enough and never feeling good enough, and the connection between childhood trauma and perfectionism. And just all of the lies we were sold about having it all. The big, fake, fairy tales about men and that you could build this life and then it would somehow be in balance. It was it was an impossible lie. And it was very much sold to us by our mothers who were part of the Women’s Liberation Movement. They were like, “Okay, this is it. Now we just step into it.” And we were really ill prepared for how many ways it could go wrong.VirginiaWell and for how much “having it all” means still doing work on the terms of the patriarchy, and on the terms of these systems of oppression. It wasn’t about reinventing work. It was about women playing the same game. Don’t worry, we can do it all.JennWe can do it, too. And then also do all the other stuff, we can do it, too. We can do it just like them and do everything else, too. It was an impossible dream. And it didn’t hit me until I reached the height, the peak, because you keep raising the bar. You’re like when I just get there, if I just make a little more money, if I just get this title, if I just, if just, if I get married. If I have a kid, this certainly is going to be it. And when I had reached the point that it looked to the outside world like I had it all—like literally Cosmo was writing an article about how to get my life. I was like, this feels awful inside.VirginiaDon’t get this life. JennYou don’t want this at all! Get away from it!VirginiaWell, and I think you tell the personal story with so much love. I really felt the love for your parents and for your extended family. I can imagine how complicated it is to write that stuff, but it felt honest and vulnerable and full of love in a way that I really admired.JennI’m glad I worked really hard on writing about my parents because I love them so much. And I understand what happened. I understand what my mother did. You know, they were teenagers when they had me. They were having to survive. I understand what happened. And in some ways, they’re heroes. I wanted them to come across as heroes. I wanted to talk about generational trauma and I wanted to talk about parenting and how parenting is just so hard for anyone but especially for people who had no models and no tools. VirginiaAnd who are so young. Your mom was so young. Just thrown into it. JennExactly, just thrown into it. I mess up all the time and I didn’t have a kid until I was 37 and had lived a whole life. I really wanted to be compassionate and empathetic while also not hiding the story because I had hidden it for so long trying to protect them. I’d really taken it on and kept it a secret. It felt very, very liberating to air it out. VirginiaSince you mentioned the Cosmo story, the other piece that you spent a long time on in the book is your experiences in women’s magazines and New York City media more broadly in the early 2000s. And you and I are both survivors of that world.JennWhat a mess. VirginiaIt’s like that meme: The kids today would not last an hour in the asylum where they raised us. Jenn, they just wouldn’t.JennNo way. I still don’t know if I’m over what happened in that situation. The other thing that the book is about is class, right? It’s a lot about class and Conde Nast was a shock and I spent a lot of time in Conde Nast both as a fact checker and as an editor at Lucky and I was at Allure for a minute and I was at Glamour for a year.VirginiaOh, I’m sure. JennIt was just okay for somebody come up and call you portly. It was just okay. I was called portly. I was a size 8 or 10, it doesn’t matter. But it was just like—I was called portly. VirginiaYeah, that word specifically, too.JennPortly. And not to mention the stories I wrote and how the subjects had to be conventionally attractive or they would kill the story. I remember fact-checking two stories, one about breast cancer survivors, and one about 9/11 widows. I remember the editors saying, “can we get more attractive people?” About the 9/11 widows. And then on the breast cancer survival story: “She’s chubs, we’re going to have to cut this one.”VirginiaI have a feeling the listeners are imploding right now. So, just to give some historical context to that, women’s magazines in this time period were very big on these Real Women Stories. They would always be about the serious issues: Breast cancer, date rape, all these pressing issues that were that are actually incredibly important to women’s lives. And they would want to tell them through real women, often as “as told to,” first person essays. And so the editor or the writer assigned the story would literally have to cast these pieces with the right mix of real women for the top editors to be okay with. None of the women were ever real because they were so carefully slotted in. I can remember age was another big one. If you wrote for a magazine whose demographic topped out at 26, God forbid you show them a 28 year old. JennOh my God.VirginiaThey wouldn’t know what to do with it. JennI mean 40 was just like, can you imagine?VirginiaAnyone over 40, forget it. JennIt was a nightmare. Unless it was a model and you were making this big deal about it. I just think about how complicit we were in our own subjugation. Because this was a time where the tabloids were circling cellulite. Remember? Like, it was just like such a “gotcha!” moment. VirginiaYes, Jessica Simpson was “fat.”JennOh, remember that? Oh my God, yeah. It felt sickening to be in it. I was married to a writer, he worked at men’s magazines. It was totally different game. Didn’t matter what he wore to work.VirginiaNo mandatory pedicures.JennNo. Exactly. The money we spent just to work there, just to keep yourself groomed. I could have retired on that!There were so few jobs for women in publishing at the time that were outside of women’s magazines. And, the women’s magazines paid the best. Because I actually had a job I loved at Time Out New York, but I made $35,000 a year as an editor of a full section. So it was like, at a certain point, the lure of survival brought you there.VirginiaIt brought you there and then you were trapped there. You couldn’t get your pitches read by editors at a men’s magazine, or even a general interest magazine, because you came from lady mags.JennExactly. They wouldn’t even look at your pitches.VirginiaIt was a fancy prison.JennIt was a fancy prison. That’s exactly right. It was a fancy prison run by skinny, wealthy, white women. Like, Mayflower white. Because it was also a very particular kind of white lady who was acceptable in those worlds. That was the class culture shock for me, too. I come from working class, like I’m fully self-made. I had no money. I really had no money. I was in such terrifying debt. I remember talking to somebody on the fashion team—I’d written something about a $150 dress—and she was like, “that’s a budget dress.” She was like, “you can’t get a decent dress for less than $500.”VirginiaAnd this was in early 2000s money, people! JennYes, exactly. It’s so shocking. Lucky for me I found a workaround. I was one of the first people on eBay when eBay came out. In the early days of eBay, you could really find steals. So I would look through what was coming up, like spring fashion or whatever the next season was, and I would find dupes on eBay. I had an incredible vintage wardrobe. I was very proud of it. But everything was like $30 that I bought. So I just was able to pass. Because I was just hoping to pass in that world. I remember going to a meeting and I had a weird hairstyle that day—I put my hair and braids on top of my head, you know? And somebody said, “It’s hard to make a pretty girl ugly, Jenn, but somehow today you’ve managed.”Virginia Wow.JennIn a meeting! Out loud! In front of other people!VirginiaAt work. Where we’ve all come to do our jobs. JennYes, I mean, The Devil Wears Prada is a true accounting of what this shit was like. VirginiaIt’s pretty much a memoir. I remember, either as an unpaid intern or a very poorly paid editorial assistant at Seventeen, getting roped into being one of those real women on a photo shoot. And none of the things zipping up the back and everyone just kind of standing around being like, “well, I guess we can make it work…” And just picking your body apart. That’s super scarring. Another time, we did this photoshoot at Seventeen where we had all these real girls doing workout gear. And they’d brought in one size 12 girl to check that box of “we have one real body!” I still think about the girl because they were legit teenagers. And she was gorgeous. So I hope she went on to feel really great about herself, but it was a not positive experience that day. JennWell, this was also part of the thin privilege because the sample sizes were 0, 2 and maybe 4. The people who were those sizes got free clothes all the time because they could fit into those clothes. So they got anything that came in sample that we weren’t sending back. I would never fit into those clothes.VirginiaNo, definitely not.JennSo they would get very expensive clothes for free. And you were just like, oh no, I have to buy everything myself. VirginiaBecause the expectation was still there that you’re going to dress at that level despite having no access.JennExactly, exactly. We haven’t even gotten into the photoshopping and airbrushing. I remember there was a picture of Christina Applegate at one of the magazines I was at. I saw the proof on the art director’s desk and everything had been circled, like lift breast, do this, thin arm, and then on the bottom, the art director had written “make beautiful.”VirginiaI mean and what’s outrageous about that is—I mean, it’s outrageous for her experience, of course. But if that is the standard? How outrageous to everybody who is bigger than Christina Applegate. Everybody is made to feel less than, because if that isn’t good enough, what is? That’s how these standards become so insidious. JennRight. And like, this is the only way clothes are supposed to look. This is the only way that’s acceptable to be, because this is the only thing we’re showing you. I mean, let’s not even get into the fact that everything was so white. There was one month a year, January, when you could put a woman of color on the on the cover of a magazine, which is also fucking crazy if you really think about that. VirginiaAnd they would always talk about how it didn’t sell well. Hmm.  JennYeah, exactly. Put them on the cover the month of the year you know sells the least and then talk about how it didn’t sell well. VirginiaMaybe give them September? Just a thought.JennI interviewed cover models, like the celebrities, the actresses, at the cover shoots. That’s where I would do the cover shoot interviews. It was so weird to watch them being put in clothes and how uncomfortable they felt. It wasn’t like playing dress up. It didn’t feel good to them either. We were all part of this machine that was just perpetuating all this toxic information, you know? I’ve worked for famous people and people who say to me, well, you can wear two pair of Spanx. And it’s like, who the fuck wants to wear two pair of Spanx? VirginiaYeah, no thank you. JennI don’t ever want to wear Spanx. But, like, the Spanx were a godsend, right? VirginiaThey were our salvation. JennThank God for shape wear. I mean, I hate bras. I hated it all. It’s weird to think about it. It’s weird to think about why we didn’t just walk away.VirginiaI mean, I don’t think we could see it at the time! Going back to the breast cancer story example—I think I felt really proud to be working on some of those pieces. I was like, “Well, this is the game I have to play to get the story told.” I finally convinced them to care about this issue, so I can find five women who are all between the ages of 24 and 35. And there will be one black woman, but no more. And everyone will be thin and beautiful. Somehow I’ll make that happen so I can tell the story. Which is of course not really telling the story because you’ve manipulated it so much. But it was that or not having the piece in the magazine at all.JennRight? And also those stories wound up shrinking and shrinking. I don’t know if you remember, they wound up being like one column. You’d start out with like a 3,000 word piece and it would just get whittled and whittled. It was like a caption by the end.VirginiaOne of the editors I worked for at Seventeen went into the art department during her first week on the job and said, “I hate words and girls don’t read. So make the pictures as big as you want.” And basically everyone in the features department was like, “So we start looking for jobs?”JennI think I know who that editor is and yes, that was the pervading philosophy. Girls don’t read. I remember being like, why can’t there be a women’s GQ? Why can’t there be a women’s Esquire? Why are we stuck in this?VirginiaI felt so frustrated because I knew I didn’t even want to write for Esquire and GQ, because they were not going to do the stories that I wanted to write. I was never going to get an editor at Esquire interested in feminism. Like, it’s a non-starter. I was just always like, I don’t know where else to go. Because the places that do the “good journalism” don’t want these stories. And then the places that will do these stories will only do them if I squish them into this box. Why is this entire genre of media so pandering? Why is it assuming women are so stupid?JennIt was funny because I did that podcast last year Stiffed which was about Viva Magazine, which was a feminist porn magazine from the 70s. The reason I wanted to do it was because I really wanted to talk to all these old time female writers and editors. I wanted to know what their experience had been like. An they were saying the same thing. They wanted all the same things. That’s why they like held their nose and went and worked thre. They were all smart, Harvard-educated people. And they went to go work for Bob Guccione because they were like, “Well, maybe we’ll get to make like not a totally vapid publication.” And they did. They did for years, next to all these naked dicks that they didn’t care about at all. They didn’t have any interest in the porn. He was pushing the porn, but they were doing all these really interesting feminist stories about sex and marriage and work and all of these things that they couldn’t get placed in other publications. There were people like us who wanted something better and bigger for women. And nobody would let us do it because they just wanted us to write about eyeshadow and pedicures. VirginiaI want to be clear: There were so many brilliant editors I learned from at women’s magazines. I remember the head of fact checking at Seventeen had been there for like 30 years. She was just a brilliant, quirky, long-time journalist. There were so many people you could learn from. It was the corporation forcing us into those parameters. The individual features editors, or the researchers, we were all like “How do we do this?”JennNo, not all of the editors. There was some true monsters.VirginiaYeah, I mean, the editor-in-chief is a different conversation.JennConde Nast used to make their editors-in-chief go through a full head to toe makeover—including they had to go to a diet doctor to slim them down, before they got on the job. VirginiaJesus Christ. JennJust think about that, you’re like a walking marquee for this whole idea of femininity.VirginiaSo curious if they did that to the male editor-in-chiefs, too. Did David Remnick have to do that?JennCome on. You know the answer to that.VirginiaHow do you feel the rigid body expectations—and this idea that your whole body has to be your work—how do you feel like that fit into your workaholism? Because I do think they’re very related.JennI mean, I think Conde ruined me. I was kind of messy when I went into Conde, you know. I didn’t know from a blowout. But that perfectionism pervaded all parts of my life.I started setting unrealistic expectations for myself in all ways after that experience, but particularly in the way that I looked. It was funny because then when I started working in tech, I showed up immaculate everywhere. I wouldn’t have said at the time, but I really worked to keep my weight at a certain level. And when I would show up for these tech interviews, I was way too done. I had become so polished and way too done. I was cosplaying as this sleek professional and it wasn’t who I was, in any way. But the Conde makeover was particularly brutal. I don’t think you can really escape it working there. Especially not in the position I had. I was the deputy editor. I don’t feel like I could have escaped it.VirginiaI don’t think you would have gotten the job, or kept it. without playing that game. There was a degree to which it felt like armor, if we dressed this way.JennIt was like a secret handshake or something, right? People being able to identify the the labels you were wearing and the bag you were carrying and that your manicure was immaculate. That really messes with you. VirginiaI was insulated in a way because I went freelance pretty early. I was a freelance writer from 2005 on. But anytime I’d have an editor lunch at Conde or at the Hearst cafeteria, I would take the entire day off work to prep. To go into that lunch, to just to be in the lobby of those buildings, it felt like you have to arrive in a certain way. I didn’t understand how my friends who were editors managed to eat in those cafeterias every day.JennOh, the cafeteria! I mean, talk about disordered eating. I have like a whole run in the book about how skinny women ate in the Conde Nast cafeteria, which was wild to me. I think that sort of Conde Nast ethos fit into what I got into later, which was like a whole Girlboss thing, which was lwhen all of those books about making it all had stilettos on the covers. It was like, you have to be pretty to make it. I tried to disrupt that narrative with my first book, but nobody wanted to hear about it. Nobody wanted to be messy. Everybody wanted to pretend like it was all going great. If you look at any of those books from that time, the women who are on the covers all look exactly the same. And if you dig a little further, they all come from wealth, or all had wealthy husbands. Their stories of making it were all about like, “Well, actually, I just started out great and then I had a leg up. And then I built this quote business.”Virginia“And I can afford a nanny and a housekeeper.” And even then, it’s still not quite working, but they can give the veneer of it. JennYes, exactly. All that grooming, and all that presentation, of what a successful woman looks like.VirginiaIt’s something I have also really had to untangle. It’s hard because we survived our women’s magazine years and now we’re in the era of social media where there’s still an expectation that your face is going to be out there all the time and that you’re going to be able to be on camera very easily. It’s not the editor-in-chief who has to be ready to go on the Today Show at a moment’s notice, but we’re still performing our bodies, and performing how we look, in the service of work.JennYes. I thought about that a lot, because I really wanted to hide for a long time after feeling so exposed for so long and performing for so long and performing an identity that wasn’t really me. Becoming inauthentic in a lot of ways and caring about things I didn’t really care about, et cetera, et cetera. So I went into podcasts and then suddenly podcasts were like video. I was like, wait, wait, wait. Even promoting this book, a lot of things have come up for me about, like, do I look okay? Are my outfits okay? Because it can’t just be about the work for women, ever. I understand the game because I was right in the fucking disgusting dirty middle of it. I was in the gross molten core of it. And I think about it a lot. I wrestle with it, you know? Ultimately, you just have to learn to disentangle the two. I think it’s one of the hardest things women will ever do.VirginiaIt’s so complicated because if you step back from some of it, there is a cost, right? There’s a cost. For every beauty standard you divest from or every bit of beauty work that used to feel essential that you’re like, “I’m gonna say fuck it to that,” that has real consequences for women. And the more marginalized you are, the more consequences you’ll have. I do think there’s some power in just recognizing this is a game I play. I just wrote an essay about body hair because I still fucking get bikini waxes even though, as a feminist, I think it’s bullshit. But I don’t have the energy to opt out. And, I mean, we didn’t wear bikinis to women’s magazines and yet, there was still an expectation that you did that. JennOh my God, like I said, the amount of grooming! The waxing and the plucking and the nails and the hair. And the hair, the hair cost so much money!VirginiaThe blow out bars.JennThe highlights. And they they knew they had us. No men were paying $500 to get their hair highlighted. Come on.VirginiaI know and those New York City salons that could charge those prices and not because they were paying their workers particularly well. But there would be the one dude celebrity hairstyles that everyone wanted to see. I remember one time getting one of those $500 haircuts and being like, What even was that?JennBecause they’re not nice to you! And it’s what you’re supposed to aspire to. All of that was really what I was wrestling with with this book because the only way to liberation is to stop caring about what other people think. It’s the only way. To be motivated internally by what do I want? How do I feel? And then that’s even confusing. I let my armpits grow for a long time—speaking of hair, because I was like,”I don’t want to teach my kid that they have to shave their armpits.” Eventually I was like, “this is kind of uncomfortable.” Eventually, I came to like, oh, my armpits stink more. But I went through the whole journey with my armpits so I could really figure out how I felt about them. How much of this is internalized misogyny and how much is my own free will is the thing I think about a lot.VirginiaIt’s really hard to know because it’s always in there. The misogyny, the anti-fatness, we can’t escape it. I feel like all you can do is try to name where it’s showing up and then decide is there something that I get out of this as well? Or is this beauty work that only costs me. And it’s going to be different for everyone. JennAnd as a parent, no matter how well you do it in your house, the outside world is still awful and cruel. I mean, we’ve talked about this a lot—my kid lives in a bigger body. My kid is bigger and they experience so much bullying. It’s so painful because I worked so hard to not give my kid what I had. And they’re still suffering.VirginiaYeah, the world is still shit. JennThere’s just no good answers for any of this except that we just keep trying to evolve and understand ourselves better and not participate in anything like we participated in in the 2000s. VirginiaI think we’re doing better now. We can confidently say we can feel much better about the work we do today. JennAnd you know what? I don’t think that Jessica Simpson would be called fat today.VirginiaNo, I don’t think so.JennI mean, now she’s on Ozempic. So who knows. Fucking Ozempic. VirginiaShe won’t be called fat because she’s doing everything to not be called fat. JennExactly. But in the body she was in then? I don’t think so. I do think that is some progress. Though Ozempic really terrifies me.VirginiaI mean, the media in particular has done such a bad job on this. Because every interview request I get about Ozempic, which is multiple times a week, I’m asked to talk about it. I just say no now, because I’m like, there’s no point. You’re all doing the same story, which is, “Now we have Ozempic so I guess we don’t need body positivity anymore.” And no, you still have to treat fat people like human beings, which by the way, is more than body positivity.JennI’m starting to really see it with women in midlife, because our podcast’s audience is all women in midlife. Your body changes in midlife and sometimes you hold weight and you never held weight before. So you have to adjust to who you are and getting comfortable with your body, right? For maybe the first time ever, right? You had thin privilege your whole life and now you don’t. We used to have models for women being in bigger bodies as they got older but now with Ozempic—like I was looking at Kris Jenner the other day, and I was like, oh my God, you’re whittled down to nothing. It’s sad.VirginiaAnd it’s so difficult to know how we get more of that representation if every time we get like a little bit of it, it has to be the entire personality of the person. That would be the same for an older celebrity. To be like, I’m not going to do Ozempic. I’m not going to do various types of work that most of them get done. Because then that would be all they’d ever talk about in an interview. I understand why they don’t want that to be the conversation. They want the conversation to be their work. So again, it’s the armor. It’s playing the game so that you can do the work. JennIt is playing the game. I’ve had friends in Hollywood say, “We just need one person to stop doing this and then we can all stop it.” And like, no, that’s not it. It’s not going to just be one person that can just stop. It’s too systemic.VirginiaYou mentioned your armpit journey, which I love. Is there anything that else that as you have done all this work of divesting from workaholism, any other ways that how you relate to your body has changed? JennI don’t have a scale in my house anymore. I used to be a real weigh-er, you know? And I don’t have the scale in the house. I really try to only care about being strong. That’s the only health thing that I really care about is like, can I still touch my toes? Can I lift this six gallon bottle of water? I’ve really tried to change those relationships and I try not to look in the mirror. I’ve tried to buy the size that I am, to not ever try to put myself into a smaller size if I’m not that size. Like I’ve just tried to not make it be a thing, if that makes sense. And it’s hard. VirginiaIt definitely does help to reframe our bodies that way. My big one is like, I still want to be able to get up off the floor. JennOh, I do that every day! VirginiaIt’s been getting harder since I turned 40! And I’m 43, so I feel like it shouldn’t be this hard yet. And it’s already pretty hard. So I need to keep doing that. Every day I’m like, get down on the floor, get up off the floor.JennI really practice. That is one of my practices every morning where I get up and down off the floor. I don’t want to hate my body anymore. It’s been too long, it’s been too long of hating it and comparing it and feeling uncomfortable with it. Now there’s a whole new set of issues. There’s crepey skin and saggy skin and everything is different. Yesterday I was doing yoga and I just saw there were these weird new veins on the front of my knees. I was like, wow, that’s weird. That’s new. Just being like, alright, well, it still works. Just being really grateful for the fact that it works. That’s where I’m really trying to be. VirginiaThe aesthetic part is not the part that keeps you being able to get up off the floor now. That’s not the most critical piece of it. JennNo, because if you start fixating on all of those things—and believe me there’s a plastic surgery for everything. If you start fixating on your ugly old hands or your saggy arms or whatever, it’s never going to end. Because we are declining. This is what’s happening. Our bodies are rotting. It’s what’s happening is a slow rot. And like, you just have to be like, alright, you’re still working. I’m still able to move through the world. That’s what I’m really focused on now more than anything else, more than the clothes I can wear, more than fucking anything. I don’t care besides just being able to be be alive and be able to be present and not hurt too much. You know?VirginiaI think that makes a lot of sense. ButterJennThere are two things that I’m obsessed with. I just realized today going through my drawer, the first one is, I think I have seven pair of Big Bud Press pants.VirginiaI’ve heard that’s a very addictive brand because you can get all the different colors. JennThey make the best pants and I’ll tell you why they make the best pants. Because they’re like a tailored pant. They look totally normal, like a normal pant. They don’t look like sweatpants. But they have elastic in the back. They just flex for you, you know? And they’re super size inclusive. They have so many cool designs and I’ve been wearing them for like five years and again I have seven pairs.VirginiaTell us which you like the best.JennI like the work pants. I really like the work pants a lot. They’re also really well-made and it’s a small company out of California and the cotton’s really good. It’s a high quality pant. I’m very hard on clothes and they’ve lasted me for years and years. They’re just a really good brand. I buy them for my kid, too. It’s a good brand, solid brand. VirginiaFor listeners, they go up to 6x. I will say I tried their jumpsuit once and the sizing was a little—it didn’t end up working for me. But I’ve heard their size charts have gotten much better. JennTheir size charts have gotten much better.VirginiaSo they’ve been on my list to try again. And the measurements for 6x is a 61 to 67 inch waist. So that’s pretty generous.JennI think they’re good pants.Then the other thing I’ve been doing—and you will look like a dork—but I got a weighted vest.VirginiaI’ve heard you talk about this. I’m so glad you’re bringing this up because I have many questions about the weighted vest. Okay, first, tell us what it is. JennA weighted vest is exactly what you think. It’s a vest with weights in it. It has about 16 pounds of weight in it. Because I’m obsessed with being strong and because also I hate running and I hate cardio. It’s the worst and I don’t want to force myself to do it. I will say I sweat more and I feel like I’m out of breath more with the weighted vest on. But it’s also distributed. I tried the backpack with the pounds in it. And I was like this is just killing my menopausal shoulder. I can’t live with this.VirginiaThat feels like a great way for me to have a neck injury. JennExactly. I was like no, no, no. But the weighted vest, I feel like it makes a low impact workout higher impact. VirginiaOk, I’m intrigued. JennI think it is supposed to help the strength of your bones. I just like it because it’s a lazier workout. I’m never going to join CrossFit. But I will say there’s no way to look cool on it.VirginiaWe’ll put a link in to the one you have. And I’m curious to hear if other folks have tried them. When I walk in my neighborhood, my neighborhood is very hilly and I’m already very out of breath. So this doesn’t feel like my journey? My walks are already hard enough. But I can definitely understand the appeal. I mean, all they tell us is strength training, bone density, blah, blah, blah. Any way to get more of that seems useful.My Butter is this book I just listened to all last weekend while I was gardening which was so blissful. And it’s called The Mother Act by Heidi Reimer. It just came out and it made me think of your book a lot. I think you would really love it. It’s told from both the perspective of the mother and the daughter and the mother is this super successful memoirist, a giant feminist personality who’s gone on to do talk shows and become a giant celebrity. But she’s written about her motherhood in a lot of detail and about how much she hated motherhood in a lot of detail. So she has a very complicated relationship with her daughter, who is the subject of all of this content that she’s made about hating motherhood. Both characters are a really wonderful exploration of women’s ambition and the character was raised in a fundamentalist Christian family that she had to kind of break out of. But then she ends up in this other fancy prison, like we were talking about. I really could not stop listening to it. And the audio book is excellent for audio book fans.JennOh, I want to get that! That sounds exactly right up my alley. I very intentionally did not write about my child in this book. Kimberly Harrington has written about this pretty well, like, it’s not my story. But also I didn’t want to regret that. I didn’t want to betray my kid. I’ve really considered that a lot. That’s a tough position, you know.VirginiaAs someone who’s done it some and is now navigating some conversations with my kid about it, I’m glad I didn’t do more. It’s hard. It’s where your story overlaps with their story and it’s hard to figure out. JennMy kid one time found a tweet of mine that said, “motherhood is a scam,” and I was like, “oh, it was just a joke. Sorry. I don’t mean it.” I mean, but I kind of do. VirginiaThat’s a whole conversation we have to have. Let’s have it when you’re 30. Alright, Jenn. This was fantastic. Thank you so much. We could relive our magazine trauma for days, I think. But this was healing. JennThank you. You’re the best. Thank you for having me on. I love everything you do. I love your work so much and I respect you so much. I’m so proud of everything you do.VirginiaThank you! Okay, everyone needs to go read Ambition Monster. Tell us how else we can follow you and support your work. JennYou can find me on Substack at jenn romolini and I’m on Instagram and everywhere at Jenn Romolini.---The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith (follow me on Instagram) and Corinne Fay , who runs @SellTradePlus, and Big Undies. The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.Our theme music is by Jeff Bailey and Chris Maxwell.Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!

You’re listening to Burnt Toast!I’m Virginia Sole-Smith. Today I’m chatting withEmma Copley Eisenberg.Emma is the author of the hybrid nonfiction book The Third Rainbow Girl, which was named a New York Times notable book and Editor’s Choice of 2020. She also writesFrump Feelings by Emma Copley Eisenberg. And Emma’s new novel, Housemates, just came out on Tuesday!Today we are going to talk about Emma’s new book, but we’re also going to talk a lot about my favorite new trend invented by Emma (so says me): Frump Fashion.Both of Emma’s, including Housemates, are available in the Burnt Toast Bookshop!Don’t forget, you can always take 10 percent off that purchase if you also order (or have already ordered!) Fat Talk from Split Rock Books! (Just use the code FATTALK at checkout.)PS. If you’re enjoying the podcast, make sure you’re following us (it’s free!) in your podcast player! We’re on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, and Pocket Casts! And while you’re there, please leave us a rating or review. (We like 5 stars!)This transcript may contain affiliate links. Shopping our links is another great way to support Burnt Toast!Episode 146 TranscriptVirginiaFull disclosure: We should let the folks at home know that we do share a literary agent. EmmaTrue. VirginiaNothing about this interview was compromised by that fact, I don’t think. We just both love and admire our agent and have that in common.EmmaIt’s true. Good conflict of interest disclosure, but I think I found you totally independently of her! I think just from Burnt Toast. So it was a fun coincidence. VirginiaSuch a small world. Okay, so tell folks a little bit about yourself!EmmaI am a writer and a fat person living in Philadelphia. I write across the genre spectrum. I write long, rambling books. My first book is called The Third Rainbow Girl. I’m a novelist at heart and a fiction writer, and my book is coming out called Housemates. I’ve also written journalism and articles about the intersection of crime and queerness, about the intersection of fatness and queerness, and about fat liberation in general.VirginiaLet’s talk a little bit about Housemates! I just finished it at 5am because a child woke me up in the middle of the night. And I was like, well, I’m up, at least I get to read Emma’s amazing novel. It has one of the best fat protagonists I’ve read in a long time. Tell us a little bit about Leah and about Bernie, who is the other protagonist.EmmaHousemates is about Bernie and Leah who are two queer housemates in a big chaotic, messy group house in West Philly, which is close to my heart. That’s where I live. I was interested in writing a story about two people who are not just lovers, not just friends, not just making art together, but are doing all three of those things at the same time. Leah is the fat one—which is only one part of her personality, which was important to me. I’m really interested in the ways that fatness shows up in fiction, the lack of fat characters in fiction as we know. I did an analysis of the New York Times notable books over the past five years adn found that less than one percent of the Times notable books—100 each year over the past 5 years—have had a fat person in them.VirginiaOut of 500 books?EmmaLess than one percent. And that’s not just the Times, right? That’s a systemic issue in our culture and in our books landscape. So that was something that was definitely on my mind. As I said, I’m also a fat person. It’s part of my life and my experience, but I wanted to write a character who was in an interesting place with her fatness. I think there’s all this pressure if you’re fat to be unequivocally joyful and positive in your embodiment. Leah is, I would say, definitely still struggling and grappling with how her body exists in the world and how it’s treated. Particularly in queer spaces. Queer spaces can be super white and super fatphobic, as we know, as well. Leah’s moving through this queer strange bubble of West Philly, having all these experiences and thinking a lot about how she wants to leave and explore and see what else is out there and make art that is doing something that she’s not seeing in her life, in her neighborhood. She’s also tall and masc and nonbinary. She uses she and they—I’m going to use she for her in this interview because the pronouns kind of change over the course of the book. But both are fine, according to her. She’s really thinking a lot about joy and pleasure with fatness. She loves sex. She’s good at sex, which I think is rarely offered to fat people, especially fat people in fiction. She’s in love with Bernie and this exciting new relationship.At the same time, she’s thinking about how to navigate her body in spaces that are not always really safe. They’re road tripping across Pennsylvania and there are lots of things that happen that put her masc and nonbinary body in situations that are dangerous or unknown. I wanted to write a fat person who is smart, inquiring, and searching. Not fully arrived at liberation, but not deeply entrenched in shame either. Sort of in the middle, and really coming of age and coming to figure out her own body, as many of us are. Then Bernie is a kind of thin, squirrel-y, little lady who is also struggling with her embodiment. Even though she’s a thin person, we know fatphobia affects all the people. She’s someone who is really thinking about how to not be so alienated from her body. She is trying to think about how to be more at home inside herself. Rather than looking at herself from the outside, rather than feeling sort of dissociated from her own experience. She is someone who really struggles to feel pleasure, to enjoy sex, to enjoy connection. I wanted to also show that Leah is actually someone who can sort of mentor and encourage Bernie along on her body journey. It’s almost like the fat person is teaching the thin person how to be in a body which is something I wanted to play with and see. Because as fat people we think about embodiment all the time. And our friends and loved ones are sort of like what, who, where? I have a body? We can be at the forefront. Not that we must teach everyone how to have a body, but that’s a joyful gift we can give if we want to.VirginiaWell and you give her that power and authority, when fat people are so often not allowed to be authorities on our own bodies.I don’t want to include any spoilers in this episode because everyone’s going to go read the book, but there’s a really, really powerful scene at the end where Leah does something very physical. It’s a very cool, embodied powerful moment and subverts a lot of expectations about how fat people move and exist in our bodies. EmmaI wanted to show Leah getting to go on a journey and a trajectory with her body that wasn’t really easy and tied up in a bow, like she starts off the book hating her body and feeling shame about fatness and by the end she’s fixed or cured or done. I do think that there are ways that we’re constantly shifting and unlearning shame over the course of our lives. My therapist always says people heal in relation, we don’t heal in isolation. And I think there’s something powerful in the connection between these two people who are thinking a lot about art and morality and travel and America under Trump. They’re both teaching each other and growing. VirginiaI also applaud you, though, because while she is really struggling with a lot of this, she’s not actively dieting. I appreciated that you left dieting out of the book altogether because I think the struggle of embodiment is so much more than that. It too often gets reduced down to just that one piece.EmmaFor sure. Leah doesn’t diet. She’s in this place of essentially intuitive eating, where she’s like, I’m going to sort of perk up my ears and listen to what I want and what sounds delicious and what I want to consume. Especially, like, they’re on a cross country road trip. So they’re eating like delicious things like Waffle House and Dairy Queen and whatever you may find on the road. I think that’s part of the pleasure of a road trip is the eating and the consuming and seeing what you encounter. At the same time, she’s ambivalent or has questions about what does it mean to eat what I’m what I’m wanting or what I’m listening to. All those intuitive eating nuances that you discuss a lot in your work. That’s very much also true to my community and my experiences here in Philly. I did this really great fat embodied healing workshop where a bunch of us were asking: What does it mean to be eating what we want to eat, to be listening to our bodies, and also to be thinking about ways of not wanting to react against. Because I think it’s true that we don’t necessarily want to just be reacting against diet culture all the time. And it’s really hard to stop that reaction. So Leah’s thinking a lot about how can I actually be free and liberated. It’s not just reacting against, it’s finding some easiness in the middle. She’s looking for that ease, I think. And I think she finds a little more of it by the end of the book.VirginiaThe book also features this somewhat omniscient narrator, an older woman who’s watching Leah and Bernie’s lives play out. She’s a really interesting character in her own right, but there’s one paragraph of hers in particular that I underlined and bookmarked and was like, “Well, this just summed up my life to me.” EmmaShe’s an older queer woman, a lesbian of an older generation than Bernie and Leah, is I guess what I’ll say. She is speaking here. The he in this paragraph is this character Daniel Dunn, who was Bernie’s mentor and college professor, and he’s complicated, to say the least.Okay, here is the paragraph: He was one of those men who asked no questions, who just talked. He talked at me rather than to me, as if I could have been anyone which it seemed I was. This was not necessarily an uncommon experience for me when it came to men of Dunn’s demographics. There’s a thing that happens when you are either a lesbian or you become more comfortable with yourself in your late 30s and early 40s, or both, and men start to pick up on the fact that you are no longer sexually available to them. So they ignore you, treat you as a nondescript piece of furniture, you are no longer dressing for their eye, and they know it. And so they do not rest their eye upon you.VirginiaYeah, I mean, all of this. EmmaSay more. VirginiaThis is a thing that I’ve been noticing over the last several years—I mean, I’m 43. So I’m the demographic she’s talking about there. And I haven’t quite known how to verbalize because I both notice it and resent it, and also love it at the same time. Because there’s a lot of freedom to this invisibility? I don’t know, I’m curious how you feel about it.EmmaYeah, that’s really interesting. It makes me think, too, I recently listened to the Modesty episode ofArticles Of Interest.VirginiaOoh, I haven’t heard that yet. EmmaIt’s a little bit different, but modesty connects maybe to what we’re going to get into a little bit later, in the sense that if you’re slightly covered up, you have a little more control over who’s looking at you and how they’re looking at you, and especially how you get sexualized or not by men. I’m also really interested in the way that men’s misogyny and sexualization gets troubled or interrupted by queerness, by queer women.So this is Bernie’s problematic professor and he’s interacting with queer women of various ages and getting tripped up almost by the fact that they’re not sexually available to him, which is interesting.Like you said, it creates a certain amount of freedom. But I think there’s also a way that there’s just a sense of invisibility that—I’m in my later 30s, but I’m fat, so I feel like that’s sort of also part of it. Like, I’ve been starting to experience that. And like you said, I am ambivalent about it. It means you have less aliveness or electricity in a room sometimes, but you also have more freedom to just be a subject rather than an object. It’s complicated. VirginiaYes. I’m aware that there are rooms I’m in where I am not going to be listened to. Where I’m not going to be considered worth listening to because of being fat, because of being in my 40s, because of being a person on the internet who men like to hate. All these different identities. And sometimes it’s just like, what a fucking relief. Let me just not engage with that. Of course, it gets complicated if you’re remotely interested in men ever. Because it’s like, what do we do with that? EmmaYeah, for this narrator, she’s not like, “I need men to fall in love with me.” But she is like, “I need men to respect me.” Because in this situation, she’s an artist and he’s an artist, and they both have work in a show together, but he doesn’t see her. Doesn’t know who she is, doesn’t care. I definitely encounter some of this. I’m not nearly as public a person as you are, but being a writer, being an audio artist, we are in the public eye to some extent and there is all kinds of weird stuff that come from that invisibility, where people are like, oh, yeah, we’re not as interested in you in this meeting. We don’t care as much about what you have to say because you’re not beautiful anymore or maybe you’re just not beautiful in general. That’s really interesting to me. I think this older artist is really thinking through what it means to have beauty or not and what that means for men in particular and just the way she moves through the world.VirginiaThere’s just so much there. Because it’s also like, who’s defining beautiful?EmmaYes and ageism and all the things.VirginiaMy solution to this a lot of the time has been to choose communities that don’t center straight men. I think you probably feel similarly? And that is extremely liberating until you realize, oh I have to go into this other context and they’re still out there. EmmaYes. I want to be writing for fat people, for sure. Like, I really hope that fat people and people interested in body liberation read this novel. But I also want to be writing for whoever’s interested in hopefully compelling literary fiction. And whenever this book goes out into the world and I’m talking about it, like I’m lucky enough to do here with you, there are all these notions that I kind of hate facing, but are absolutely going to be put upon all of us. You know, of like you’re just not as shiny or not as interesting or not as smart. I can’t tell you how many times people have made assumptions that I’m not the author of my first book because I’m fat. Like, walking into a bookstore where people assumed I was like, a friend or something, you know? And I’m like, no, I wrote this book.VirginiaWait, wait. We have to stop on that for a second. Tell people about your first book and then why could a fat person not have written that? I don’t understand. EmmaMy first book was a reported memoir. And there were at least two times, I think, where either I walked into a bookstore or I showed up to a press thing and people were like, “Oh, like, hi?” And I was like, no, I’m, Emma. I’m the author. And they were like, oh! And then one bookseller actually said, “I saw a huge person out of the corner of my eye and I thought that can’t be the author.” Someone said that out loud.VirginiaThose words were said out loud. People do not hear themselves. EmmaNo, they do not. I think there’s a deeply entrenched belief that we need to keep examining, which is that fat people can’t have excellence or can’t be innovators, can’t be visionaries, can’t have exciting, strange, culturally relevant ideas. Like, I know people wouldn’t mostly say that out loud. But I think there is a truth to that. We know that fat people are discriminated against for job opportunities.So yeah, it was wild. And I definitely had people reach out to me in the process of publishing my book being like, what happened? Like, you gained so much weight. What happened to you? The sense that since my book was about a murder, they were like, oh, the trauma of the book must have caused you to become fat. And I was like, no, no, actually.VirginiaBodies change, guys. EmmaLike, calm down. It’s fine, you know? Yeah, people do not care. It’s wild. VirginiaI mean, I’m just exhausted and enraged.Okay, but so this invisibility thing we’re talking about segues really nicely into the other big conversation I wanted to have with you today, which is about frump fashion. So you write a Substack calledFrump Feelings by Emma Copley Eisenberg, which is an A+ Substack name. Like, really A+. As Someone who just thought of her own subject name very off the cuff years ago and sometimes wishes she’d put more thought into it. I’m like, damn, that’s a good one.So you wrote this piece back in April called Frump Goes Mainstream which I really loved for a lot of reasons. First, tell us, what is Frump? EmmaI’m still incredulous that my weird word reclamation is something that’s of interest to others, so thank you for caring about frump.VirginiaI care deeply.EmmaThank you so much. I have long been dressing myself in a way that maybe is a little bit strange to other people. As a kid I wore a lot of pinafores and ruffled outfits and I was always trying to get my parents to buy me the matching Samantha outfit from American Girl dolls, as we’ve discussed.VirginiaYou know I lived that trauma with you.EmmaExactly. There is a sort of American Girl inspired character in Housemates which is an easter egg for you. VirginiaOh, I loved it. EmmaThank you so much. I remember getting to high school and college and being like, “Okay, I’m supposed to be sexy now, I think?” Like, other people in my high school were sexy? And then when I got to college, it was like the Going Out Top. I’ve heard you talk about the like tyranny of the Going Out Top a little bit. And also our friend,Dacy Gillespiehas talked about the Going Out Top . And I was like, what is that? It was the sense that I was supposed to be putting my body on display in an appealing way. I also remember being a kid in the 90s, growing up in lower Manhattan, when the street harassment was constant and endemic and just intense. So from a very young age, I remember being like, “Actually, I think I want to cover up and put more clothes on.” Because, one, I liked them and they’re made of fun fabrics. And two, I don’t want to get on the subway and be harassed on my way to school.I wouldn’t say I’ve ever had a particularly cool or vibrant style, but I’ve always had a sense of like, I’m interested in maxi dresses. I’m interested in ruffles. I’m interested in patterns. I’m interested in many layers. I’m interested in bright colors, big shapes, clothes that often read as either little girl or old woman. That tends to be my vibe. Recently, I think it seems to have kind of exploded on TikTok with this sense of dressing for the female gaze instead of the male gaze. That seems to be something that’s really come into the modern vernacular on TikTok, on Reels, other places. Gen Z.VirginiaBless the youth EmmaThe youth are okay. VirginiaI love that they’re like, no thank you, male gaze. EmmaThe Going Out Top has gone and it’s been replaced by big pants and interesting shirts. And I love that for them. I think that it’s really interesting just to see this mass rejection of this idea of sexiness. In my manifesto about frump that I published a few years ago, I call the mainstream style that we expect from women and femme people “sexy adult woman.” And I want to be like a weird child or a grandma in the woods. Those two poles of experience are sort of where frump resides. People use the word frump or frumpy to denigrate women and to say you’re failing. Failing at the project of being sexy is to be frumpy, right? And so at a certain point, I was like, no, I want to reclaim frump and be like, this is actually not a failure to be sexy. It’s its own style that has its own goals and its own silhouettes. I also think that it has a certain vibe of a little bit of messiness. You’re generally a little less showered when you’re frumpy. Your hair might be greasy or you might have big boobs that are a little bit floppy. In My Crazy Ex Girlfriend she talks about “heavy boobs.” Heavy boobs are very frump. All of this is to say that there are certain physical realities that make being a sexy adult woman complicated or unappealing. And I was like, I don’t want to do that anymore. VirginiaI was listening to a parenting podcast, because that’s my life, and they were talking about their teenage girls going to prom and the girls are wearing sneakers to prom now. And I’m just like, yes. I mean, they’re still wearing the little dresses and all that. It’s still very, like, for the male gaze. EmmaAn aestheticized thing, yeah.VirginiaProm is built for the male gaze, right? But still. And this actually happened a few weeks ago—I went to a dance party that was all middle aged moms because it was a fundraiser for our school. And we all showed up in comfortable footwear, even if we dressed up. And I was like, why did I ever go dancing in heels? Like, I was not a club girl. I was really bad at clubbing, but I went to NYU so there was an expectation that you would try.EmmaOoh, I didn’t know that about you.VirginiaIt was a hard time for me, aesthetically. And I feel like I’m still paying the price of what I did to my ankles in those years. EmmaNow I’m like, ooh, a chunky loafer? Really risky for my ankle today. Bold move. VirginiaSo I love that even in very mainstream pockets we’re seeing a little infusion of the frump aesthetic. People are like, comfort actually matters. But even more than that, I love what you’re talking about here about embracing different silhouettes and that this has its own goals. That is so refreshing. I’m just thinking about layering frump over the mom bod conversation, which I know is not your life, but for those of us who are in our 40s have kids, there’s this perpetual message that were I to, quote, “give up,” and be comfortable, I would be just settling as a mom. The mom bod would be this big failure as opposed to just like an equally valuable way to be a human being. Frump is maybe the answer?EmmaI hope it’s part of the answer. Maybe it’s all about like, you want to have ten choices of how to get dressed in the morning instead of one. I felt like when I was in my 20s there was only one way, which was some idea of sexy adult woman. Flattering, minimizing, making the hourglass, all the things. All the things that you and Dacy talk about with a sense of creating a silhouette that’s flattering, which is really just minimizing flesh, as we know, and creating am idealized shape that doesn’t always exist for a lot of people. I’m just really excited about whatever we call it, whether we call it like frump or dressing for the female gaze. On TikTok they also call it, like, Swedish or Norwegian, film festival fashion or something. I’m very here for that. Whatever you want to call it. There are so many other styles, too. I just hope that we get like 10 or 20 or 30 options in the future, rather than one if you’re a person who’s a woman-ish. VirginiaAnd doesn’t want to just always get dressed thinking, “how do I lead with my body in this one specific male gaze way?”You mentioned this in the piece and when I was then looking on TikTok, I did see a lot of the most popular examples of frump are on thin bodies. That’s sort of adjacent to the normcore thing, right? Where skinny models wear giant jeans and white sweatshirts and Reeboks and are like, “it’s normcore!” What do you think it means for fat folks specifically to dress frump?EmmaI think it has a different valence and a different meaning for fat folks to dress frump. Again, so many of the Sexy Adult Woman shapes and fabrics are designed to make our bodies smaller—that is not so for frump fashion. Again, we’re adding layers. We’re going oversized. We’re drawing attention to our bodies with bold patterns and weird bows. Part of Sexy Adult Woman, we are taught, is minimizing. Like, attract attention to the right places, like our tits and our ass and whatever. But it’s also supposed to not attract attention in a lot of ways.I think frump does attract attention and that’s been something that was uncomfortable for me. I will speak for myself. At first dressing more oversized, embracing different shapes and silhouettes and doing things that are just a little bit strange or having weird scrunchies in my hair—like, people do look at you. And I don’t know how I feel about that, always. And to bring it back to our conversation about the narrator in Housemates. There’s a power in being looked at and observed and seen. And then sometimes there’s an exciting power in being unseen. It kind of depends on the day. Sometimes I’m like, I’m down for being seen today. And then other days I’m like, please don’t look at me. Just look away.So I wonder if there are different ways to think about the effect of frump on the eye. Like, sometimes the effect of frump is to shock the eye and to make the eye excited and then other times the effect of frump is to make us invisible. I’m kind of here for that invisibility cloak that frump can allow, too.I think I get something really joyful out of the youthfulness of frump, too. There’s something about fat people dressing youthfully that makes that fills my heart with joy and makes me feel a little bit like I’m like reclaiming or re-experiencing some of the choices and fashions that I wanted to make as a kid when my body was not cherished. I was a plump to fat child as well. VirginiaThe clothing options back then were dismal. EmmaVery bad. I feel a little bit like I’m like healing my fat inner child when I dress frump, too.VirginiaWhere I get stuck sometimes is worrying about that perception and thinking, “Will this outfit be read as stylish on my fat body when I know it would be read as stylish if a thin person wore it?”EmmaYeah. It’s tough. There are some days where I know this isn’t going to read successfully and I feel bad about that. And there are some days where I know this isn’t going to read successfully and I’m okay with that. I like what you said about will this be perceived as stylish. I think sometimes you have to take frump to a ten to be perceived as stylish. The one through five can be a wiggly wobbly area. So sometimes I think I aim for a six and above when I want to be stylish, because it’s the pizzazz.VirginiaThis was clearly a choice.EmmaThis was a choice. I think that’s what you’re talking about is you want to convey that this was intentional, not a failure. I think a lot about how do I convey that? I am intentionally making this choice. That’s part of the reclamation, it’s “I’m aware.”Virginia“I have reclaimed an entire word and genre of dressing. I am aware that this is a conscious choice to be stylish.”Just to drill into that for a second because I feel like people listening are going to be like, "Okay, I want to dress frump. Tell me how.” Are there specific favorite pieces? Or styling tricks you use that you’re like, “this is what elevates it when I want to go there?”EmmaIt’s a constant evolution. We don’t have all the money in the world or all the time in the world. But things that I find do read more intentional are things like really unexpected shapes. Like, I have these really weird bubble sandals that are—I think they’re even Uggs. (Similar.)VirginiaOh, I have the clogs! They’re big rubber shoes?EmmaExactly. This is a big deal for me too because I grew up, like, oppressed by the Ugg boots of the girls that I went to high school with. I swore I would never wear Uggs. But now I’m like, fun colored Uggs! I think color is a huge part of it. I do think that color is essential for frump, so choosing colors that feel a little bit bonkers. Like chartreuse and bright pinks and neon. I’m having a lot of fun with neon lately. My hair is a never ending source of despair. I don’t think I’ve like mastered the frump hair life. I guess if we were going to go full frump it would be like complicated braids. Do you remember that hair braiding book from when we were kids?VirginiaOh, was it a Klutz Press? Yes, yes. It had the color photos and something on the bottom? EmmaI think it was called, like, Braids and Bows or something? VirginiaThis is how I learned to braid!EmmaIt had ribbon braids and fish tails and stuff. I don’t know, maybe the ultimate frump hairstyle is just my greasy hair. Depends on the day, as we’ve been saying. I’m really gravitating towards dresses that don’t show my cleavage. I have large boobs. It’s been like a journey for me to be like, how do I feel about that?Which Leah also does in the novel—I gave her very large boobs, which is a thing for like non-binary folks. Like she’s thinking a lot about like gender dysphoria, but also just having large boobs in the world. So I’ve been wearing a lot of clothes that are high necked or almost turtlenecks, which was another thing that I feel like I was told as a kid, don’t do that. Because if you’re fat or you have big boobs, don’t wear turtlenecks. It looks bad. It’s not flattering. And I’m like, but actually it’s comfortable. It makes me feel like locked and loaded for my boobs. I just feel more myself in those kinds of necklines. VirginiaI recently discovered a new lime of swimwear called Lime Ricki, which turns out to be a Mormon brand.EmmaI haven’t heard of it!VirginiaInstagram served it to me, and it will now serve it to you because I’m saying that name out loud. But it’s pretty size inclusive, it goes up to 4x. And the patterns are very frump-adjacent. There are a lot of really bright colors. And because it’s a Mormon line, it’s very modest.Emma Love it.VirginiaHaving a high neck swimsuit in a really great pattern? It’s so exciting!EmmaThat’s a hot tip. I like that. VirginiaCheck it out. EmmaIt’s it’s interesting because I’m not ashamed of my boobs. I would just like to have the choice about where they go and how they fit and where they live. VirginiaHow big of a focus are they getting today!EmmaExactly, exactly. VirginiaI’m a big fan of them, but that doesn’t mean they’re for everybody. I know writing about style is not your primary thing. You’re a brilliant novelist and reporter, but also the way you articulated that just gave me a lot to think about. So I appreciate you getting into frumpiness with me, too. ButterEmmaBecause I am bisexual and bigenre, I have to pick two. That’s just how it is. It’s been a great and exciting and sometimes stressful season leading up to releasing a book, and one thing that has been keeping me alive is there’s a show on HBO Max called Dog House UK—I don’t know if you’re familiar? VirginiaI’m not, but I’m intrigued. EmmaI’m about to change some lives. It is the most soothing show about dogs and healing. It is a place in the wilds outside of a major UK city—is it London? No one knows. But it’s a beautiful green sanctuary where dogs who have been abandoned or neglected or are no longer wanted are brought in and each dog gets a caring British human assigned to them to love them and nurture them and work on their behavioral issues.VirginiaI need to watch this with my 10-year-old.EmmaThat’s only half of it. And then sweet British people come in who are like, “I’m looking for my soulmate in a dog form,” or like “I lost my sister to cancer and I’m having a hard time,” and these sweet British people go into the back with their computer in their like dee dee dee and they look through all the dogs they have and then they matchmake the humans with the dogs. You get to watch these humans and dogs meeting and joyfully experiencing each other falling in love for the first time. It doesn’t always work out as is the case in life and no one is pressured to marry their dog soulmate on the spot, but it often does. It’s like two for three usually per episode which is pretty good.I get worried about the dogs who are not adopted of course so I really appreciate that at the end they’re like don’t worry, Rosie the fat Beagle found her forever home. Like, don’t worry she’ll be fine. VirginiaI’m sure doing the show they’re getting a lot of write ins like, does Rosie need a home? I mean, they’re tapping into a nice wide audience. That’s reassuring.EmmaI should say though, relevant to your listening audience that there is sometimes a little bit of dog fatphobia on the show. VirginiaOh,  Corinne keeps wanting to do a piece about this! We talk about this all the time. Pet fatphobia is a weird thing.EmmaIt’s a weird thing. On the show they’re like Rosie the fat Beagle could really stand to lose a few pounds! And I’m like, calm down. Rosie is fine. VirginiaShe’s perfect. EmmaShe’s an angel. Do not touch her. So, trigger warning for people.So that’s what gets me to sleep and through my days, which is essential.And then I want to recommend a crop of cool books coming out with fat people in them that I feel like people should know. One of them is an older book that I think you already read, Big Girl by Mecca Jamilah Sullivan, about a fat Black girl in Harlem. It’s also about music. It’s a beautiful book. It’s a really complicated story about hunger and art and becoming the person you want to be. Also, there’s a new book out called skin and bones by Renée Watson that just came out a couple of months ago. I haven’t read it yet, but I read an excerpt of it and it’s beautiful. It’s also really explicit about weight and diet culture, but really complicated and nuanced. I’m really excited to read it.VirginiaYeah, that looks phenomenal.EmmaSo that’s technically three, because I’m trisexual apparently, but I love it.VirginiaHere for all of it. Number one I need to watch that with my 10 year old, we have a very beloved family dog. But my kids are frequently suggesting we need a second dog, which I have complicated feelings about because they also think we need kittens. And we are a house that has two rescue geckos, so the whole situation is getting out of hand.EmmaThe second dog thing is a major plot line of the show. Maybe you all should watch and discuss. VirginiaThat’s what I’m thinking. I need to know though, will it help me not do it? Or will it mean we ended up with five dogs? I need to know which way it’s going to push me.EmmaI’m guessing the five dog route. Well, actually—sometimes owners come in with their really picky little dogs and and they’re like, “Fred needs a friend.” And then Fred meets all the dogs and he’s like, all these dogs suck and the couple is like, okay, like maybe Fred doesn’t need a friend. So it depends on the vibes. There are different episodes but basically they’re pro-multiple dogs. I will tell you that.VirginiaAll right, that’s complicated. I’m appreciate that trigger warning for me as a parent navigating pressure. EmmaThe multiple dog landscape.VirginiaOn a related note, I think my Butter is going to be Monty Don! He is a British gardening celebrity and a wise gardening soul. Because in the UK, they have gardening celebrities because gardening is the national pastime, other than dogs. And he has the show Gardener’s World that is a very long running BBC gardening show, it has been around for like 40 years. Not always hosted by Monty Don, but hosted by him for a long time. EmmaGreat name. VirginiaYes, he’s a delightful, older British gentleman who gardens in cardigans and his wellies. He’s wonderful. The show is wonderful. It was my pandemic comfort watch with my kid. And I have been off it for a few seasons, but I’m getting back into it. Because it’s garden season right now so I just want plant content constantly. They just do these lovely segments where they find this elderly person and who is the foremost dahlia gardener in England orhas the country’s largest collection of delphiniums and he lives on a regular little suburban neighborhood tract house.EmmaHow do you watch it?VirginiaWe watched it on Britbox, which I may need to re-subscribe to in order to do this. I think you can maybe sometimes watch some episodes other places as well. I will put that info in the show notes: Roku, Apple TV.But it is so soothing and you will want to garden but even if you don’t like gardening, just watching people be so passionate about these niche hobbies of “I raise primroses and grow 47 different kinds of primroses.”EmmaWhat I need right now to sleep, so all of your recs are appreciated. VirginiaI think it will help you during the book launch stress. EmmaI love that.VirginiaEmma, this was so much fun. Thank you for coming on. Tell folks how we can follow you, how we can support your work. Number one, of course everyone needs to go buy Housemates!EmmaThis was a delight. Thank you so much. Yeah, I am on all platforms. Tiktok, Instagram @Frumpenberg because, brand consistency. I would love if people buy Housemates from your local bookstore, pick a fave, pick bookshop.org. Whatever works for you. That’s the main most important way, so that I can live on to write another book.VirginiaWe can’t wait. Thank you. This was so fun.---The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith (follow me on Instagram) and Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, and Big Undies. The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.Our theme music is by Jeff Bailey and Chris Maxwell.Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!

You’re listening to Burnt Toast!We are Virginia Sole-Smith and Corinne Fay, and it’s time for your May Indulgence Gospel. And because it is Fat Swim Week, we are doing an entire swim-themed episode for you!We’ll get into:Can we reclaim the swim dress? (But do we want to?)Why is the Lands End swimsuit website SO bad?How to get sunscreen in impossible-to-reach spots?Why does Corinne hate flip flops?Even more thoughts on visible pubic hair.And so much more about how to show up fat at the pool or beach this summer and have an absolute blast.This is a paywalled episode. That means to hear the whole thing you’ll need to be a paid Burnt Toast subscriber. Subscriptions are $5 per month or $50 for the year.If you’re already a paid subscriber, you can add on a subscription to Big Undies, Corinne’s new Substack about clothes, for 20% off.You’re absolutely going to want to read yesterday’s Swimsuit Science roundup as a companion to this episode.This transcript contains affiliate links. Shopping our links is another great way to support Burnt Toast!Episode 145 TranscriptCorinneWe’re going to dive right into the questions. VirginiaNo pants chat this time. We’ve got swimsuit chat to get to. CorinneThe first question is one that we got a lot of iterations of, and it’s basically about boobs.I need a swimsuit rec for chasing kids around the beach that I don’t have to tug on, adjust and feel like I’m going to spill out of?VirginiaThere were so many versions of this one: How do I get any decent boob support? How do I play at the pool with my kids without my boobs falling out? This is the peak mom swim question, I think, assuming you are a person with boobs.And it’s really hard because so many of the swimsuits and especially swimsuits marketed for plus size— we were just looking at Nicole Byer’s super cute line—are very cleavage forward. It’s let’s make fat women look very sexy at the pool, which I’m here for… but not when I’m at the pool with my kids, or my parents. It’s just not everybody’s vibe all the time.CorinneThe other thing I noticed when I was trying to research this a little bit was it seems like there are a bunch of swim lines that are designed for larger cup sizes for straight-size people. But it was much harder to find large cup sizes for plus sizes.VirginiaWhich, the plight of the DDD cup size 2 woman—I see how that’s a clothing challenge. But the world was built for your body in a lot of ways. CorinneAren’t there entire magazines dedicated to photographing you?VirginiaExactly. If your band size is 38 and up, it gets a lot trickier. My number one hack for this is wearing a sports bra as a swimsuit top and then wearing a high waisted swim bottom. I think it’s cute. I tend to do solid colored sports bras plus a bottom in a fun print. So it feels like there’s still some style, but the top is just going to be so much more supportive. Because underwire swim bra tops are just not built like bras. I don’t really understand why. The bra companies know how to make bras, so you would think they could make swimsuit tops, but they can’t. They can make sexy swimsuit tops, but not hold-you-in swimsuit tops.So I tend to wear these sports bras from Girlfriend Collective. I have them in a couple colors, like black, navy blue, light blue. I also have a now-defunct Target sports bra that’s really great, in a hot pink. And they tend to dry just as fast as swimsuits do. That’s kind of my go to for this.CorinneYeah, that’s a good tip. I was thinking, if I were going to be in a situation where I needed to chase a child around a pool or the beach—VirginiaCorinne is marked safe from chasing children. You can just be sexy all the time at the pool.CorinneYeah, my top goal. But even if I were fully clothed, I would want to be wearing a sports bra.VirginiaExactly. Like, what would I wear to a playground or a trampoline park? Which, by the way, is my hellscape of parenting. I try to never go to them. But were I to go, I would definitely be wearing a sports bra. Similarly, bike shorts can be great for this. Take your workout clothes, is what we’re saying. Whatever you would work out in in the summer, you can probably swim in it, because it’s probably not that much clothing and that many layers.CorinneWe also got a nice reader rec for this.It doesn’t have to be sold as swimwear for it to work as swimwear. After years thinking the perfect swim top would be a sports bra, I just wore a sports bra as a swim top.And they recommend getting a bra with a zip front.VirginiaThat is super smart. I have gotten kind of trapped in a wet sports bra before. I saw SuperFit Hero makes a cute zip up swimsuit top that feels like it has very sports bra quality to it. That’s a great option. The other brand we can talk about here is the brand we got tons of recs for. And I own many of their swimsuits. Land’s End is kind of a go-to for the mom suit.I will say their website is an absolute dumpster fire. They shoot all of  the swimsuits on I think it’s a CGI model. It’s not a human being. It’s just photoshopped, one swimsuit after another on the same model that is not a human. It’s very disorienting. CorinneEvery time I go to the website, it takes forever to load. You find one product and then you have to find the same one in plus sizes to order. It’s so confusing.VirginiaIt’s definitely more desktop friendly than phone friendly. This is one to do on your computer. Set aside some time. Have a snack. You’re going to be on the Land’s End website for a while, and it’s not going to be great.The best Land’s End ever did was a Draper James collab, which is Reese Witherspoon’s line. That gave us a couple of seasons of very cute plus size swimwear. There was all this gingham and fun colorblocking. And unfortunately that line is almost sold out! I’m always still stalking to see if any new pieces will come out and they haven’t. The styling has never been quite as good since then. But I will say if you want, like, a basic black swimsuit, whether you need a one piece, a tankini, a skirt option, a shorts option—they do all of it. And it will last forever. You will be passing this swimsuit down to your daughter. It’s industrial quality. So I have bought lots of pieces from them just because I know they do hold up. CorinneWorth notig that it goes to a 3x 24/26 and it’s definitely not the biggest 24/26 I’ve ever seen.VirginiaNo, definitely not. I mean swim in general tends to run small. I have made the mistake of sizing up for swimwear to be comfortable and then when you get in the water it ends up too big. So I do think this is an argument for, if it feels tight when you put it on, that might be okay once you’re swimming in it. But yeah, they definitely need to expand past 3x for sure.CorinneAlright, the next question was another super popular one.Would love any swimwear recs for suits / bottoms that don’t necessitate / encourage shaving your pubic line. Suits with a traditional bottom cut and a skirt over the top don’t count. Thanks.If you can cover this, would love to just wear a suit without having to even think about whether to remove hair or not. VirginiaOh, my God, I feel you. Me too. I would love this. I don’t know why we’re throwing out the traditional bottoms with a skirt over the top. I think that might be one of the options we have to explore here. I just want to keep it in the mix is all I’m saying. I understand the resistance to it. But I think you have to keep it in the mix.CorinneThe thing I want to say about swim dresses is I feel like they do get a really bad rap for being just like this ugly mom thing.VirginiaThe sad fat lady option.CorinneBut I feel like there are some cuter ones now?VirginiaYes! I do think the styling has improved. If you’re gonna go this route, don’t get a tropical print. What we’re all thinking of is the tropical print like the purple and teal swirl design. Look for good solid colors. Which is not to say fat people have to wear black—that’s another thing we get told. But there’s something very chic about a well-fitting black swimsuit that a well-fitting tropical print swimsuit can never quite achieve for you. But maybe there’s a great cobalt blue or kelly green or raspberry? So, I think we can’t throw the swim skirt out too fast.CorinneI think your options are either a swim skirt/dress or shorts. Like bike shorts or swim shorts.VirginiaOr board shorts. CorinneI do think there are a lot of cute swim short options now.VirginiaThere’s a style that gets called boy short which I never really understand why we call it boy short. But it’s much shorter than a bike short. Depending on how your body hair grows, you can probably get away without shaving with that. We should also hold space that some people don’t care about this and are happy to have their pubic hair be visible and I support you. CorinneI have body hair privilege.VirginiaCan you explain your body hair privilege?Corinne I just don’t have a lot of body hair. It’s honestly to the point where I feel self conscious about it sometimes. I don’t have a lot of armpit hair. It’s purely genetic, neither of my parents have a lot of body hair. I do not need to shave my legs. VirginiaWhat you need to know is neither of my parents have a lot of body hair either. And something happened. CorinneWow. Fascinating. VirginiaBecause I have all the body hair, for everybody. So I feel you, fellow hairy people. It is such a hard thing to decide, do I just want to embrace this?I am privileged to have a pool at my house. So do I worry about my body hair when I’m swimming with my kids in my pool at my house? Absolutely not. But if people are coming over, if I’m going to a public place… Like, I can be pro we don’t remove body here and also pro I don’t want to share my pubic hair with the town. That’s a level of intimacy I don’t feel I’m on with all of the PTA moms.So it’s a really annoying one. And hair removal is expensive and fucks with your skin and it’s incredibly gendered labor that not everybody is expected to do and I hate it. I hate it a lot. CorinneWhat is your solution?VirginiaI have waxed for a long time because I get really bad rashes with shaving. I have pretty sensitive skin. But the waxer that I love around here just moved to England. So now I don’t know what I’m doing. I’m bereft but also I’m like, oh, maybe I just don’t do this for a while. But does that mean only swim skirts forever? I don’t know. CorinneI just want to mention some shorts options. I know Alder Apparel and Universal Standard both have quick dry shorts. I have the Alder Apparel ones and I love them and I wear them in my regular life as shorts. There are also the sort of more nonbinary swimsuit style of it’s a tank on top and shorts on the bottom that you can get from like TomboyX or there’s another brand called Beefcake Swimwear that both have that style. Good American also has swim shorts.VirginiaOh, yeah, that is a cute style. Maybe I need to try this.CorinneYeah, TomboyX has a lot of cute colors. And then I’ve also been seeing some swim rompers making the rounds, which are like kind of a looser thing in that similar style.VirginiaIt’s this thing of like, we shouldn’t be ashamed of our bodies. We’re allowed to be there. Bodies are just bodies. We’d all be better off if there was way less squeamishness around this. And, if I’m going to see the guy who also teaches my kids ukulele lesson, do I need to know him in that way?CorinneWell, and back to the question about like tugging and stuff, sometimes it’s more comfortable to just not have to think about it. VirginiaThe next question is:Need a plus size around a 3x wetsuit recommendations for a client who is participating in an upcoming open water swim.Wetsuits are torture. I’m sorry, they’re so hard to fit. I’ve only had bad experiences wearing them and I have nothing to share. CorinneYeah, this question is a real bummer because there are so few options. I was remembering that I had seen a plus size wetsuit brand. And then when I went to find them, they’re closing. So there was a brand called Truli that was doing wetsuits—and by plus size, up to a size 24. They’re closing, they’re sold out of plus sizes. They do have a Facebook group where people buy and resell and trade so you could check there.VirginiaOh, thats good to check out.CorinneThere is a person on instagram named Kanoa Green who is a plus size surfer adventure person. I think she’s based in Hawaii. And I think she has some recommendations for plus size wetsuits. One of the brands is 124 West, they go up to a 4x but the 4x is like a 47 inch chest. There’s also Wetsuit Wearhouse, they have men’s wetsuits that go up to a 54 inch chest, but it’s going to be for a tall person.VirginiaYeah. Checking men’s make sense, except wet suits need to fit you pretty specifically. And if it’s too long, it’s going to drag down on you in the water and you’re going to be drowning in this thing.CorinneYes. I did find a couple of other things that we can link to in the transcript. I found one on Amazon. No idea how good it is. And then a brand in the UK selling wet suits called Tri Suits. They have one called the Yonda wetsuit that goes up to like 330 pounds—because a lot of them are by weight—and a 55 inch chest. So that’s pretty generous. But, um, yeah, kind of a bummer. And if people have other recommendations, please share them.VirginiaThis feels like one of those eternal anti-fat barriers that we need to keep dismantling. Because when you think about the culture of triathlons and other events that would have open water swims, there’s so much anti fatness, so much focus on thinness. And then when we get these questions like, why don’t fat people work out more? Like oh, yeah, maybe the sport is not accessible. It’s so aggravating.CorinneIt is a bummer. The next question isI’m really curious about pregnant people and finding swimsuits during and after pregnancy. I hate the thought of buying a suit that might only fit for a few weeks and then never wear it again. How would you recommend approaching this as a small fat lady approaching a third trimester during peak summer?VirginiaOkay, so my kids are born in August and October so I feel you because I had two very hot pregnant summers to get through. When I had the first one I didn’t know if there would be subsequent children. I didn’t have a number of kids in mind. So similarly I was like I don’t want to spend a lot of money on a swimsuit that I might only wear that summer. I ended up finding a really good one at Old Navy. Disclaimer that I was still in straight sizes, I think a 12 or 14 shopping for pregnancy clothes that first time. But I still would check Old Navy because their plus size options for small fat are decent. And given their sales, you can probably get a top for under 20 bucks.[Post recording note from Virginia: Looks like Old Navy Maternity suits only go up to XXL! So sorry!]You might be able to wear a regular bikini bottom and just not pull it up over your belly and just get a maternity tankini top. The other option is to stick with bikinis full stop, where you don’t need the stomach coverage. That’s not everybody’s comfort of course.You might have to get a bigger bra size because you’re pregnant now, but you could probably get like a normal bra top. You’ll get some use out of the top past the pregnancy but definitely look at Old Navy for cheap. They’ll do a Memorial Day sale and everything will be $9.I would also crowdsource! Pregnant and formerly pregnant people love to pass on their maternity clothes because this is such an annoying time of life. This is something if you’re on any local moms groups, ask around. Does anyone have any good maternity swimsuits that they’re looking to pass on? I think you could get some good options that way.CorinneYeah, I was also going to suggest maybe looking into YouSwim because they are specifically designed to fit a variety of sizes.VirginiaI have a YouSwim bikini. When you first order it and open the envelope, you will be like, Why did I buy doll clothes? Because they are tiny. They’re this ribbed fabric. And then you put it on it stretches quite dramatically.CorinneAnd they only have two sizes, one is 0-14 and one is 14-24.VirginiaThey annoyingly are not making all of their suits in the bigger size. I’m very irritated about this because they also have this very cute longline bikini that I really want that they don’t make in the 14 to 24. CorinneAnd the colors are very limited. I want to try them, but I just don’t like any of the colors they have in the bigger size. At least right now. VirginiaI will also say it is not a boob support swimsuit. My boobs look awesome in it, but they’re more visible. You’re not going to go jogging on the beach. I mean, you’re pregnant. You don’t need to be doing that. But maybe look at them for bottoms, I would say, because the stretch is pretty good. Okay, I’m going to read the next question. We got multiple versions of this question too because I think it’s getting at a core dilemma. And maybe we already hit on a little bit with the discussion of swim dresses and swim skirts, but this is a core dilemma as a fat person showing up in swimwear. So this person writes, I do not want to remove my pubic hair in order to enjoy swimming. Plus, I’m very sun conscious, so I like to be covered up. The result is I’m often in surf outfits that have shorts and sleeves. It’s great for what I’m trying to achieve, but I feel self conscious because I’m fat and worry people assume I’m dressed like this because I’m trying to cover up my body, like an adult version of wearing a big T shirt over a bathing suit.I feel like I’m sending a message that I’m ashamed of my body and by association that other fat people should be, too. Even though in reality I’m just trying to care for my body by not waxing or getting sunburned. I don’t know that there’s a question here other than help. Yeah, this is really real.CorinneIt’s a dilemma. I mean, my thoughts are: Take care of yourself. And don’t worry what other people are thinking.VirginiaYou don’t owe anyone a political statement about fat people in swimwear if you want to go swimming. It’s an interesting double standard, because you wouldn’t make the same assumption about a thin person wearing surf shorts or a swim skirt. CorinneI definitely live somewhere where a lot of people wear stuff like this just because of the sun. You can’t be in the pool for very long without sun protection. VirginiaI think in general, the cultural awareness around sun protection is changing. It’s more normalized that you don’t want to be uncovered. But I know what this person is talking about because I have gone to a lot of public pools and beaches where I see moms slathering their children in sunscreen, putting their children in full body rashguards, putting their children in sun hats, like a child has to wear their hat into the pool to swim. And then the mom is in a bikini. Like maybe a big hat and maybe they have a cute cover up. But there’s still this thing of as a woman or a female presenting person at the beach, I have to look sexy and be uncovered. And I struggle with that. Both the pressure to do it and I have complicated feelings about it.CorinneIt is a complicated question. I don’t know that there’s a good way to dress in a way that meets the needs of your body while telegraphing to other people that you’re not ashamed of your body.VirginiaYeah. I think just the fact that you’re showing up and I assume swimming and enjoying yourself at the pool, I think that is showing that you know you belong there. People questioning it, or misinterpreting what you’re doing, that’s really them revealing more about themselves than anything. But I understand this confusion of perception. I think it is why a lot of us feel like UGH about the swim skirts and the swim dresses. Because it feels like that’s all we were told to wear and because it feels like well, if I’m doing that I’m somehow signposting to the world, like, “fat mom at the beach in the swim dress.”CorinneI think it’s more important to be comfortable and not having to remove body hair or get a sunburn at the pool than it is to be trying to send a message to other fat folks that you’re not ashamed of your body or their body. That’s the the side I would land on with that.VirginiaI agree. And by showing up in that type of swimwear, you are also subverting the norm that women should reveal their bodies at the beach. You are challenging the patriarchy nicely that way. That’s also valuable. Okay, the next question isRecs for swimsuits size 5x and up?Corinne, what have you got for us?CorinneThere are a bunch of brands that go up to a 5x. Over a 5x, Superfit Hero, which you mentioned, they go up to a 7x. They have some very cute stuff and it all looks comfortable and supportive. They also have rash guard tops and stuff like that. Swim shorts. It’s practical.Swimsuits For All has some styles up to a size 44. Ulla Popken has very few styles up to a size 38. Tamara Malas has up to a 34/36. Then we’re getting into the ones that go more like up to a size 30 or 5x, but Villa Fresca, which is Gabifresh’s new swim brand, Bloomchic goes up to a 30, Eloquii goes up to a 32, Universal Standard has up to a size 30. Beefcake Swimwear, which is one of the kind of nonbinary style goes up to a 5x and Nomads goes up to a 5x. VirginiaAre there any of those brands that you have tried or have specific style notes about? CorinneI’ve tried Swimsuits For All, not super recently. I’ve tried Eloquii, also not super recently. Eloquii’s stuff was good, if it’s your style. Well made, holds up. And then yeah, Swimsuits For All just has tons of stuff, just tons. VirginiaThat’s a little bit of a grab bag, right? Because it’s lots of different brands.CorinneI think they have different brands and I think they have their own brands as well. I think their own brand stuff is pretty basic, but I the fact that they have anything up to a size 44 is pretty significant I think.VirginiaI am noticing and I’m slightly annoyed that on Swimsuits For All if I search by one pieces, it only goes up to 34. Yet if I search by swim dresses, it goes up to 42.CorinneYes, I do think the larger size things are a little bit more, like, modesty-oriented.VirginiaThat is irritating, right? That other questioner is not wrong. That is irritating. You don’t have to wear a swim dress. I mean, some of them are cute, but why are there not more options?I think, unfortunately, the other advice here is—and this is what I do anytime I order swimwear—is you have to order a whole bunch of stuff. You have to have an evening, maybe a glass of wine or an edible, whatever you might need, some chocolate. And you need to resign yourself to I’m going to try and a bunch of stuff. And 80 percent of it is going to be absolute trash. And I’m going to have to return it. I know when I order everything I’m going to UPS at some point. That’s an another annoying errand and that is the process for finding swimwear as a fat person.CorinneAnd you have to make sure you don’t accidentally remove the hygienic liner.VirginiaThe crotch sticker!CorinneWhich always happens to me. It sticks to my underwear.VirginiaYeah, it’s just an annoying process and you’re going to have to go through it.CorinneAll right, next we have a bunch of questions about sun protection.Plus size rash guards? Where to get a good cover up?VirginiaI am more useful on cover ups than rash guards. Do you have rash guard thoughts first?CorinneI just ordered a rashguard from Land’s End, so Land’s End definitely has them. Superfit Hero definitely has them. VirginiaI have had them from Athleta which is not fully size inclusive. I think they go up to a 3x but I don’t know how good of a 3x that is. I think mine is probably a 2x from them. And randomly J Crew factory outlet—I have one from there that is a 2x. And it was super cheap.Because I’m that mom who’s slathering my children in sunscreen but neglecting my own protection, I often don’t feel like wearing rash guard. I don’t like the feel of them in the water, it’s kind of a sensory thing for me. I don’t like sitting in a wet rash guard, so I don’t know, it’s a tough sell for me. But I will do a hat and I will do a cover up and I will keep my cover up on a lot of the time when I’m at the beach or the pool because I am not trying to tan. My favorite things for cover ups are, especially if you’re traveling and going to be swimming, is to pack some dresses that you would wear out, and could also wear as a cover up. One of my favorites is actually like this old silk Anthropologie dress that’s a mumu style but it’s knee length and has a big V neck. It’s really pretty and I always get compliments on it because it’s sort of dressy for a pool. But it works really well. And then if I wanted to wear it to dinner later, I could. I do a lot of big shirt dresses. I think there are just more options sometimes. I think a lot of the cover ups marketed as cover ups, it’s kind of like they created a need so they could sell a product a little bit? I also really love my chambray button down shirt from Universal Standard. Just like wearing that open over a swimsuit or any big button down shirt, I think, is a good cover up. I think it like looks pretty stylish in a way that some of the sold as a cover up options don’t. CorinneYeah, I usually go for either like a robe-ish thing or a dress that opens in the front, like buttons down. I have like a I guess it’s a dress thing from Oddbird that I like as a cover up. And then also I really like Peridot Robes. VirginiaOoh, yeah. Your Peridot robe is good.CorinneThis is the question I didn’t know that I had:But how are we applying sunscreen in 2024 to the hard to reach body parts? VirginiaMan, this is a great question. CorinneI need someone to tell me because I don’t know. I feel like I usually get the spray stuff and try to reach as far as you can to spray it on my back and hope I’m not missing a spot. Or ask a friend to do it.VirginiaThis was one of the good uses of a husband. Having a partner who will spray your back for you. And yeah, obviously you could ask a friend. You don’t need to get married.CorinneIt is surprisingly intimate, though. To be like, can you lather my body?VirginiaI agree. And I wouldn’t ask my kids because I don’t trust their application skills to be reliable. I mean, this is where a rash guard is useful. Sometimes what I will do is not worry about the sunscreen on my back while I’m just sitting on the lounge chair and maybe leave my cover up on but then if I’m going to go out in the water for a while, then I will make myself wear a rash guard so I don’t have to worry about my back so much. CorinneBut yeah, I would love to know if there is like some tool. VirginiaYeah, there should be. CorinneLike a back scratcher for sunscreen?VirginiaBoth my kids have different sensory aversions to sunscreen. One of my kids will only do the stick or the roll on sunscreens. And I have to say, it feels like you could have like a grabber that you could use for that. We need the technology. So people drop that in the comments if you have other tips for getting your sunscreen on your own back and other hard to reach places.CorinneWhat about size fat towels?VirginiaWell certainly Towel the brand that we had a podcast episode about, with Mary Carney.I haven’t used them for the pool but I love them so much. They’re in my shower. But I do have her towel and they are so fluffy and delicious and giant and she designs them to fit up to a 7x so super size inclusive.CorinneThere are a few plus-sized towel brands, but I feel like none of them are making specifically beach or pool towel. VirginiaBeach towels in general often run larger so they might be thinking there’s less of a need? Because the towels we use at our pool are some Target beach towels from many summers ago (similar) and they are—I had one in my bathroom and compared—much bigger than my regular bath towels. So for a long time, beach towel was the tip you got for how to get regular towels to work. So there are some options but I agree I would love to see one of these fat towel brands doing like fun, beachy patterns.CorinneI also like Oddbird for towels because they do those like super thin Turkish towel kind of thing. I like because lugging around a beach towel is such a a pain sometimes.VirginiaYeah, the Towel brand would not work to go to the pool because they’re heavy. It’s very thick. CorinneYeah. And I find that the the Oddbird ones fit me. They usually list the measurements.VirginiaThat’s really good. Oh, and they’re cute, too. I might want some of these. CorinneBut it’s more of a keep cool towel than a keep a warm towel, if you’re in a cold climate.VirginiaOkay, we got a recommendation for Havaianas flip flops. And Corinne wanted to cut it from this episode because I have learned that Corinne is militantly anti flip flop, and I’m sorry to have to inform you all of that. I think this is possibly Corinne’s version of Birkenstocks and skinny jeans. I’m gonna read this real quick and then Corinne can tear it apart. Okay, this person said:I’d like to shout out havaianas flip flops. I recently realized I’ve been wearing the same pair for 11 years and they haven’t aged much at all. I just looked at the price and I’m shocked they’re only $20 to $30. I guess that’s what was pretty expensive in my mind when I bought them as a literal child, 27 years old.Wow. So what’s the deal?CorinneI mean, I just don’t like them? I don’t like how they look and I don’t like the sound that they make. VirginiaThe slapping?CorinneI was thinking the origin of this must be literally high school or something. But then I was recalling that I’m pretty sure I wore flip flops to my senior prom. VirginiaSo you’ve had a reversal on this. You used to be pro flip flops. You’ve flip flopped!  CorinneI feel like to me now they signify something that I don’t like. You wear flip flops, right?VirginiaI do. Not all the time, but definitely for travel. If I’m going to be swimming for traveling, I always throw flip flops in because they take up no space in your suitcase versusanother pair of Birkenstocks or something that are going to be bulkier. Again, the bulky sandal.What I don’t love about them actually, this is like very in the weeds, but I have noticed in recent years with the flapping and the way it hits your foot, if I wear them all day, I will end up with heel cracks from it. My feet can’t take it anymore. So, that is legit not for everybody. And for sure they have no arch support. You couldn’t walk miles in them. So to me, they’re specifically for like, “I’m going from the parking lot to the pool.” They can’t be beat for that.CorinneI don’t like the smacking and for that walk, I’m using the plastic Birkenstocks.VirginiaI am really craving a pair of the thong-style plastic Birkenstocks. I have the regular ones and I love them, but I garden in them so they’re very muddy a lot of time. I feel like they wouldn’t work for going out and about. CorinneI kind of want to get a pair of the plastic Birkenstock clogs because I feel like those would be good, because then you wouldn’t get like sand in your or dirt in your shoes.VirginiaBut don’t you think it would just come in the sides? I don’t trust that.Well, apparently this is a very controversial shoe, the flip flop. So listeners, tell us your opinions on them, pro or con. I’m very curious to find out because I thought they were just sort of a given of swimwear life.Our last question, I think, is a really, really good one to end on. Would love thoughts on navigating public pools. There are lots of thin moms at mine and I’m ready to not compare myself to them at all this go round.CorinneYeah, this was such an interesting one for me, because I am a frequent public pool goer. One of the things I like about a public pool is that there’s just a lot of people there with different bodies. VirginiaYeah. I agree. I think I’m often in my head before I go about this issue and how I’ll feel about it. Then when I get there, I’m like, oh right. Real life is not an Instagram reel. Models are not hanging out at my pool.CorinneI always just end up feeling good because I’m like, “Oh, there’s a fat teenager wearing a bikini and men with tons of body hair.” People are there to get cool, you know? Not to display themselves. VirginiaTotally. And maybe that’s one tip is like, look beyond the thin moms. I get, depending on what your community is, there may be a lot of thin moms at your pool. There certainly would be at any local pool I’d go to around here. But look for the fat teenager, look for the dads, look for the different vibes. I think fat bodies are so often rendered invisible, that it’s possible you’re focusing on the thin people, but there’s a lot more going on in your pool environment and looking and realizing you’re not as alone as you think might be really helpful. CorinneAlso, can you focus on why you’re at the pool? What is it about being at the pool that you like? Like you get to cool off or you get to enjoy the sunshine or whatever, rather than how do I look compared to the other people at this pool?VirginiaThe anti-fatness is very real. You’re feeling uncomfortable because, yes, your body gets scrutinized in a way that thin bodies don’t get scrutinized and all of that is true. And whenever I went to a pool as a thin person, I was just as in my head, probably more so, about what my body looked like and how it would be perceived. All those thin moms you’re seeing are also standing in their house debating what to do with their pubic hair, debating what kind of cover up to wear, debating how much coverage or not coverage they should have with their swimsuit. Feeling anxious about being nearly naked in public is understandable and I think universal for the most part. So just let yourself go and enjoy. This is something I like that Jennifer Weiner has talked about a lot over the years. She always posts a swimsuit picture in the summer because she talks about being a younger fat mom and feeling like she couldn’t be in the pictures. She didn’t want to be in the pool or whatever. So she’s always like, get in the pool with your kids. Get in the pictures. Put yourself out there because you deserve to be there. And your kids want you to be there with them. And they want those memories with you. So don’t deprive yourself. CorinneAnd it’s fun. You’re there to have fun. VirginiaAnd if its not fun for you, that’s fine, too. I’m not saying every single person has to love public pools or swimming or any of this. But if this is something that you enjoy doing with your kids or your friends or just by yourself, you deserve to be there.I’m excited to hear what other folks have to say about these many contentious issues. We’ve covered a lot. Swim dresses, pubic hair, flip flops. A lot of hot button topics in this episode is all I’m going to say.ButterVirginiaI want to talk about pool snacks because it’s on theme and also because yesterday was our first day warm enough to have a bunch of kids in the pool. We weren’t expecting the weather to be that good, but I ended up with four kids in my pool which was so fun. And then they got hungry. And I think in past years, I would always be like, okay, come out of the pool and we’ll have snacks on the porch or come inside or whatever. But they clearly wanted to keep swimming, they were having a great time. And so I was like, I’m going to bring them snacks to eat IN the pool. The most popular snack hands down was lemon ice. The just absolute joy on these kids’ faces of like floating in the pool, eating a lemon ice on a hot day. I felt really proud of myself that I happened to have them on hand and remembered that. I also brought out popcorn which was very popular, although a little bit messier for sure. One of my children could not remember not to put their hand in the popcorn bowl. So my next goal is to get some like plastic individual snack cups for this kind of thing. CorinneThat’s smart. VirginiaVersus bringing out the one giant bowl of popcorn. But then there was like, ew, you made it wet. But yeah, good pool snacks and potato chips, too. There’s something about salty when you’re swimming a lot—it’s probably your electrolytes theory. CorinneI wasn’t going to say anything.VirginiaI put it together. They needed to replenish their electrolytes. Cape Cod potato chips are the best summer potato chip in my opinion. So when you’re doing your fat swim this summer, don’t sleep on snacks. Think about what your good snack plan is going to be. Super cool and icy or salty and crunchy are your best options. Not chocolate. It’s going to melt and be a mess.CorinneYes, those are good tips. I would often go to the pool after work, from like five to six or something and I would meet friends there and we would be hanging out in the pool and all we could talk about was food. I think something about being in the water just makes you really hungry. But then we started bringing sandwiches and it was incredible.VirginiaSandwiches at the pool sounds great. CorinneI’m also very excited about my Butter because I feel like it’s a really good Burnt Toast butter and I’m curious if you have listened to it. I recently rediscovered the Julia Louis Dreyfus podcast Wiser Than Me. Have you listened to that?VirginiaOh, I have not. I heard her interviewed about it, but then I never listened to actual podcast. CorinneThe second season just came out and basically the premise is she interviews older women. There are just a lot of interesting guests and I specifically want to recommend the episode with Isabel Allende. They get into some really interesting topics about whether Isabel Allende considers herself sexy.I think she’s also kind of a good interviewer maybe partially because she’s also not a good interviewer? You can tell a lot of times the questions are coming from a personal place. But it’s fun to listen to and I feel like it’s just inspiring and makes me feel better about aging.VirginiaOh, I’m excited. I’m definitely listening to that.---CREDITSThe Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith (follow me on Instagram) and Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, and Big Undies—subscribe for 20% off! The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.Our theme music is by Jeff Bailey and Chris Maxwell.Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!

Welcome to Indulgence Gospel After Dark!It’s time for your May Extra Butter! Today we are talking about the bodies of Bridgerton.If you’re listening to this the day it drops, season three is out! We love the show. We love Nicola Coughlan. And we do not love the way the Internet talks about her body!To listen to the full episode and read the full transcript, you’ll need to join Extra Butter, our premium subscription tier, for just $99 per year.In addition to these monthly episodes (where we get into juicy stuff like the anti-diet to alt-right pipeline, is Kids Eat In Color anti-diet? and my post-divorce body), you’ll also get a comp to Cult of Perfect, occasional live thread discussions, and more major perks.Plus Extra Butter ensures that the Burnt Toast community can always stay an ad- and sponsor-free space—which is crucial for body liberation journalism. Join us here!Extra Butter Episode 7 TranscriptVirginiaI am so excited for season three. I just need to express some fan excitement before we dive in. Did you did you watch it when it was first airing? CorinneThat’s a great question. My strong memory of first watching Bridgerton is that it was right around the time that my dad was dying and it was exactly the escape that I needed. I can’t remember if it was right before or right after, but I was like, “Take me away.”VirginiaErase everything.CorinneI was really skeptical. It just didn’t sound to me like the kind of thing I would like. And then I watched it and was like, oh no, I love this. VirginiaI was a Bridgerton skeptic for a very long time too! I did not watch it at all when it first came out. I can’t remember why, I think I was just being a snob? I think I was just like, “I don’t need another period drama. I’ve seen all the good period dramas.” Like, what? I don’t know.But I got into it earlier this year. It is not a show I can watch with my kids, but I needed something fun to watch on my solo weekends and I binged it hard. I watched the first two seasons earlier this winter, and was like, where has this been all my life? I also really loved the spin off Queen Charlotte, even more maybe.Obviously, the story is really fun, but I love all the small details—like the way they’ll do a classical interpretation of a pop song. There are a lot of layers to the production that are just very fun.CorinneRight? Like, it’s a period drama, but it’s also really not. The music, and also lots of people of color. VirginiaObviously, I was Team Penelope from early on. She’s the best character. CorinneYes. She’s kind of the whole heart of the show because—Spoiler Alert! (If you haven’t seen seasons 1 and 2)VirginiaShe’s Lady Whistledown! Sorry if you haven’t seen the first two seasons. There are going to be spoilers today. And what’s very exciting about season three is that it is Penelope’s moment! It is her season!Do you want to talk about what you’ve been hearing about what this season might include? CorinneSo I haven’t read any of the books, but I’ve heard that the books are problematic. There’s some weird bad stuff in them. I have also heard that in the book that focuses on Penelope’s love story, the plot is that Penelope has always been in love with Colin but Colin doesn’t fall for Penelope or doesn’t see her until she loses a bunch of weight.So that would be a real bummer if that were the plot of this season of the TV show. I’m feeling hopeful that it’s not going to be like that just because of the ways in which they’ve made it not exactly a period drama. VirginiaI want to believe Shonda is not going to do Penelope dirty. I have been fact checking this in real time by texting with my best friend who has read all the Bridgerton books. She says she does not remember book four featuring a big weight loss plot. Full disclosure, Amy is someone who is not great at remembering plots! But I think she would remember that detail. She is now live texting me some excerpts that I can read for us. I have no page numbers. “She was soft, curvy, and lush, just as he always thought a woman should be.”That seems promising.CorinneInteresting, okay. Virginia“Her hips flared, her bottom was perfect, her breasts… Good God, her breasts felt good pressing against his chest.”Maybe we should have flagged this as an X-rated Extra Butter! Then Amy says, “I just found the part where her mom gave up taking her to the modiste and choosing her clothes, because she was officially on the shelf as a spinster. So now she gets to wear cooler colors and Eloise thinks she looks lovely.”CorinneSo she’s not only fat, she’s a spinster.VirginiaShe’s been a spinster for the whole show. There has been no hope of her marrying. But I’m kind of here to stan some Eloise/Penelope stuff. That would be great. Maybe that’s the direction they take it. CorinneInteresting. VirginiaSo okay, we don’t have confirmation about whether or not the books feature a prominent weight loss plot. Commenters, you can tell us.But it is certainly an open and ongoing concern. Any time a fat actress gets main character energy in a TV show, they are going to wedge in a weight loss plot. Whether it was in the original book or not, I would be worried about this. I want to believe that in a post-Shrill world, we have evolved past the need for that, but I don’t know that we have.The other piece of this is, the way Nicola Coughlan’s body is discussed all the time definitely suggests that a lot of viewers of the show and a lot of media that cover the show would expect that to be part of the journey.CorinneNicola has been pretty openly responsive or critical of how much her body gets talked about.VirginiaWhich is constantly, every article that’s written about her. And we should just say that is not true across the board for the Bridgerton actresses. The thinner actresses do not get this much scrutiny, which is both not surprising, because anti-fatness, and is surprising, because this is very much a show about bodies.It’s about these women’s bodies being controlled with all the strict rules about what they can wear and how they’re getting presented to society and whether they’ll be attractive to a man. It’s also often a show about women claiming their bodies and their pleasure.I’m blanking on the names of the two actresses who played Daphne and Kate, but you don’t see interviews with either of them having to be like, “This is how it feels to be thin as a gorgeous Hollywood actress. Against all odds I was cast as the love interest.” They’re actresses who are always cast as the love interest. That is a real disconnect. And Nicola has to keep addressing it, and I just feel her exhaustion that this is a part of every interview and every conversation. CorinneIt’s not just Bridgerton either! I think also for Derry Girls and everything else she’s ever done. She’s always “the fat one.” VirginiaLet’s talk about this Harper’s Bazaar UK piece because I think this is the big media piece that came out to help launch the new season. And it is a very rich text. What jumped out to you first?CorinneI thought it was interesting that she wrote it—although you had some thoughts about that. VirginiaYes, she did not write it. This is an “as told to.” As someone who’s written many an “as told to,” my guess is at the photoshoot, while she was sitting in the hair and makeup chair, an editorial assistant or other staffer from Harper’s Bazaar sat next to her and asked questions. And they recorded everything and then went back and put this together. It is extremely rare that an actress would write this piece completely on her own without any input. In terms of both her own schedule—she talks in the article about how she’s filming 17 shows at once. When would she have time to write an article and go through the editing process with the editors? And the magazine is going to want certain things, so they would want a lot of control over what they could get out of her. These are always “as told to.” And in this case, not even credited to the ghostwriter. So good job, ghostwriter, wherever you are. But it is interesting that they decided to do it as a first person.CorinneYeah. I think the part that really sticks out is the list where she says,“Luckily, I have a fool-proof way to avoid scrutiny as a woman in the industry! All you have to do is follow these simple rules:”And then it’s sort of jokey and sarcastic. Like, “be permanently 22 years old, be a sample size, have a sparkling personality.”VirginiaAnd I love that she says,So, when I say sample size, know that the camera adds 10 lbs, so one size below that is the actual ideal. If, for any reason, you can’t/won’t follow this rule, I suggest accepting that, in every interview you do, you will have to talk about your figure instead of your work. I get asked all the time about my body – I wrote an article in 2018 for The Guardian in which the thesis was: ‘Please focus on my work and not my body.’ I still feel exactly the same.Here it is six years later and she’s still having to address this.CorinneIt’s so interesting because she has been so vocal about, like, “Focus on the work, not my body!" Stop asking me these questions.” And yet, whether or not she’s actually writing an article, she’s focusing on her body, too.  VirginiaThe magazine wants to seem like they have all this access to Nicola and that they’re giving her a microphone and a place to say what she wants to say. This is supposed to be her controlling the narrative, but she still has to address this piece of things rather than just talking about the challenges of developing the Penelope character or even how she felt about costume choices and how they influenced her performance. The piece doesn’t really focus on that at all. I also really liked the part where she talks about ending up on American Vogue’s Best Dressed list.CorinneYes. She ended up on this Vogue’s Best Dressed Women in the World list. Then she describes what she’s wearing and how unfashionable she actually is in her day-to-day life. So she says,Today, for example, I am wearing a jumper that has the word ‘happy’ on it, beside a picture of a rainbow – this is a terrible jumper. I was given it for free years ago and for some reason, even though I know it’s terrible, I wear it all the time. Completing this ensemble is a pair of Guinness socks (also free) and some ancient leggings that I realised midway through the day were on backwards. I did consider turning them round but, ultimately, I was fine with it.I mean, relatable. Very relatable.VirginiaI was like, Nicola, do you want to do the #UnflatteringToast Style Challenge with us?So many great rules are broken here. Such a great comfy outfit. I love it. And I do give the editors’ credit that they included that anecdote, because it really shows us the disconnect between how actresses are forced to perform their bodies for the world and how they actually conceive of their bodies and how that has absolutely nothing to do with the way they have to give their bodies to us. CorinneRight? And what is fashionable? Is someone who’s fashionable someone who dresses fashionably alone at home? Or is someone who dresses fashionably on the red carpet? VirginiaThat’s a fair point. CorinneShe’s describing what she has to wear for work versus what she wears in her personal day-to-day life.VirginiaThere’s something to letting fashion be this thing you perform. Maybe it’s not a personal passion of hers, so she doesn’t need to do it at home. There was an interesting thing you pulled up about people responding to what she wears on the red carpet. Do you want to talk about that? CorinneThere was a tweet where said,The fat girl from Bridgerton is wearing a black cardigan at the Golden Globes, because no matter how hot and stylish you are, if you’re a fat girl, there will always be a black cardigan you think about wearing then decide against but ultimately wear because you feel like you have to.And Nicola responded, “I thought the cardigan looked ace Molly Goddard used them on her runway with the dresses. That’s where the idea came from. Also, I have a name.” VirginiaI mean, kind of fair on both counts. Amanda’s not wrong. The cardigan is a ubiquitous fat girl fashion thing. This just came up in the Style Challenge last week! A fat person said to me, “ou can never go wrong if you add a cardigan or a top layer. If you feel like you’re breaking a rule, just add a cardigan.” And I was like, “But what if it’s hot? What if I don’t want to?” So it is one of those rules and I can understand why Amanda interpreted it that way. But it’s also a fair that Nicola was like, No, I just liked it and what if you didn’t dissect my body? CorinneWhat if you didn’t refer to me as “the fat girl?”VirginiaShe also tweeted around the same time, “I mean this in the nicest way possible. I’m not a body positive activist, I’m an actor. I would lose or gain weight if an important role requirement. My body is the tool I use to tell stories, not what I define myself by.” And that’s a fair thing to say about your body, right?CorinneIt’s true, she’s not a body positive activist. Her body is part of her toolkit as an actor.VirginiaI think it’s problematic that anytime a fat person becomes famous, they are expected to have a very specific perspective on their body. They either need to be textbook pursuing intentional weight loss—I’m thinking of Chrissy Metz from This Is Us where she had to sign the contract saying the character would pursue a weight loss plot. It’s either that we are allowing you to be visible because you are on a path to make yourself smaller, or we are allowing you to be visible because you will always, in every conversation, come back to “I’m fat. I’m happy to be fat. I love being fat. This is my whole identity.”And both are incredibly reductive and not allowing for the whole range of human experiences about having a body.CorinneIt sucks.VirginiaIt really does. It really does.CorinneThis Harper’s Bazaar article first came on my radar because the photos were getting shared around social media.I saw Sean Taylor posting about how amazing Nicola looks—and she does look amazing. But in the reel that Sean Taylor posted, she says, “In your mind, think of how old you think this person is.” And then she tells us Nicola is 37. And like, she does look young. But Sean Taylor is like, “I’m going to be bringing these photos to my injectionist and my hairstylist,” or whatever.I just can’t imagine how hard it must be to have that much scrutiny even when it’s praise about how young you look.VirginiaHorrific. This reel is really interesting because it’s basically the Venn diagram of anti-fatness and ageism. Sean Taylor is excited about how glorious Nicola looks because she looks young. So you’re only allowed to be fat and visible and fashionable if you are young, which is not great news for a lot of fat people.CorinneLike someone who’s actually 38.VirginiaI haven’t been 37 for a minute now, and I’m still here. We are just going to keep existing in our bodies for many years more.Also, these photos! I mean, this is for the same piece where she talks about walking around in the Guinness socks and the rainbow sweatshirt. These photos they have very little bearing on what she looks like in real life. This is a photo shoot for Harper’s Bazaar Magazine, there is an army of people standing by at these photoshoots. There is so much meticulous work going into every one of these images, both at the photoshoot itself in terms of hair and makeup and fashion and lighting. And then afterwards, in all of the incredibly comprehensive retouching these photos had.So, basically what Sean is celebrating is that a fat girl got that “star treatment.” But all that treatment did was take a fat person and try to make them look as much as possible like a thin Hollywood celebrity.CorinneIt also makes me think of all those times when someone who’s fat or borderline fat has had this treatment and then the unretouched originals get released. I remember that being a huge thing when Lena Dunham was in Vogue.VirginiaYes, and everyone feels deceived. But it’s all a deception. I mean, even not-fat actresses like Tina Fey—who, problematic on weight, always. But she talks in her memoir about being shot for shoots like this and the dress is not zipped up at the back. And, as a size eight, they didn’t have her size.So I’m looking at the photos now and I want to be clear, I’m going to look at these photos as a former magazine editor to talk about the work I think they did on the photos. I am not critiquing Nicola’s body as I talk about this—her body belongs to her. But I think it’s useful for all of us to understand what went into them. So in the Bazaar piece, in both the opening image where she’s in the gold dress and if you scroll down to the one of her in the pink dress, you can tell by the shading at the sides of her body that they did a lot of photoshopping to make her waist look much more defined. I mean, I don’t know what her waist looks like in real life, but I can tell by the shading on the side of that pink dress and by the way her hands sit on the hips of the dress. There was more of her that came out of that photo and they did that deliberately. My guess is they did it on her arms, as well. If you look at her left arm there compared to her right arm you can kind of see the top of the left arm. CorinneOh yeah, it looks very strange actually. VirginiaIt’s not super subtle once you start looking for it.In the gold dress, too, you can see the slimming on the sides. And certainly her skin is heavily filtered. Nobody’s skin is like that. She has no pores. Nobody’s skin in real life is made of that magazine texture skin. CorinneIt’s like, yes, she’s fat. Maybe? Maybe she’s fat? She’s small fat? She’s midsize? But if she’s fat, she’s also unbelievably beautiful, has really gorgeous skin, looks much younger than she is. And that’s why she’s here.VirginiaThere’s a ton of pretty privilege. There’s hourglass privilege. And then there’s a whole machine, taking whatever she has in real life and amplifying that and downplaying anything else. I want to again be super clear, we are not criticizing Nicola! She’s promoting the show. And Bridgerton is a fantasy, right? Bridgerton is a show that’s a total fantasy, where there are these elaborate costumes, elaborate hair and makeup. It makes sense to do a Harper’s Bazaar shoot that’s very high fashion. She’s being shot in a castle or whatever. There’s fancy art behind her. I completely get why they did this. I don’t even think it’s necessarily harmful. What I think is harmful is that people intellectually think they understand Photoshop, but they don’t understand the impact it has on our brains. Like, the fact that Sean Taylor, who’s been in the industry and understands these things, is like, “Great, I want to look like this.” She’s not recognizing how much work went into making Nicola look like this in these images. So, I think that is harmful.But on the other hand, this is a fantasy of a show. She’s playing a character. She’s playing Penelope in these photos, basically. This isn’t Nicola.Where do you land on that question?CorinneI think my first reaction is no. It’s fun. It’s cool. It’s fashion. It’s fun to look at photos that aren’t real. But I do think you’re looking at photos and your brain is processing it as “this is how a person looks,” but it’s not how a person looks. VirginiaYeah, every pose she’s standing with her hands on her hips—and not even on her actual hips, but on the front of her. She’s covering her stomach, basically. It emphasizes the hourglass shape. I honestly feel bad for her. Posing for photos is a nightmare. And I don’t think being a good actress makes you necessarily good at posing for photos. It’s a very different skill and to have every photographer be like, “hands in front now.”CorinneBut the photos are cool. VirginiaI mean, she looks amazing. It just also feels like a really interesting choice and yet not a surprising choice for Harper’s Bazaar to say, we’re going to write this essay by her talking about how she doesn’t like all this focus on her body and she’s actually this unfashionable girl in backwards leggings who’s just like living her life. And then we’re going to juxtapose that with photos of her looking as high fashion and as marketably beautiful as possible.There’s a disconnect.CorinneThe beginning of the article is her saying how she wanted to be a gay icon like Bette Midler and how she was the oddball in the corner and the strange girl no one pays attention to. VirginiaSo to be the romantic lead in the next season is a weird disconnect. These photos are an attempt to cast her as the ingenue. To be like, “look, she can do it!” And they’re successful. But what if we could have an ingenue who didn’t have to be checking every possible box on the pretty list? I guess Bridgerton is not the show you go to for authentic body representation. I mean, maybe I’m asking too much.CorinneIt’s hard because I do think in some ways it’s better than other shows, there’s definitely more racial diversity. And there is one small fat person. Well wait is Penelope’s mom fat? I can’t remember.VirginiaNo. She’s curvy. It’s a MILF vibe. It’s not fat representation. And she’s always hyper corseted.I read an interesting article about the costuming and they dress her character, basically like a 1950’s pinup, but in a longer dress. If you look at the way her hair is always done, it’s a very 1950’s silhouette. Even though it’s done on a full length gown, because of the time period the show is set in. Whereas Violet Bridgerton, the mom of the Bridgerton clan, they dress much more like a Jane Austen character. She is supposed to look Regency. With Penelope’s mom they’re going for a certain Elizabeth Taylor kind of vibe.I’m very protective of Penelope as a character. I really want this to go well. I don’t feel like I’m that into Colin as a love interest.CorinneWasn’t there something at the end of the last season where they danced and then he was into someone else?VirginiaHe was a shit at the end of the second season. He’s kind of bland and whatever. He’s not one of the men that I was like, ooh, him. Whereas Anthony, the older brother, he’s complicated. He’s stormy. And the Duke, obviously, no more needs to be said about the inherent hotness of the Duke. But Colin I do not feel is inherently hot. So I am curious how he can carry the season.Penelope, hands down, can carry it. Should have been carrying the whole show the whole time. And I would be into an Eloise plot line.CorinneI’m going to just go out on a limb and say I don’t think that’s going to happen.VirginiaI know. There are some queer characters in the show? But I mean, very background.Corinne It would be a very 180 degree turn from the books. But who knows? VirginiaYes, that’s true, but I would be really into it. Because remember when they go to that sex club in the first season? There are guys hooking up with guys. I don’t know if that’s in the books, or if that’s all Shonda.CorinneIt would be interesting if one of the seasons ends up being queer.VirginiaHere for it. Shonda, are you listening? Are you an Extra Butter? Do you listen and take plot notes from us? Please don’t have Penelope lose weight. We just don’t want to see that. Well, this was very fun. I’m excited to hear what people think in the comments. I hope we have a lot of Bridgerton fans in the community. And if you want to talk about what’s problematic about the show, we are here for that too. We’re not saying it’s a perfect show, by any means. I know there were a lot of feelings about Daphne in the first season. Totally open to those critiques. But yeah, Team Penelope.ButterCorinneOkay, my Butter is another thing that started on TikTok, which is jacket potatoes. I have become completely obsessed with baked potatoes which are called jacket potatoes in England. There are these Tiktoks of people getting jacket potatoes at these jacket potato stands. You watch them slice open the potato and mash up the insides and put on an enormous amount of cheese and an enormous scoop of beans, and they just look so freakin good.So I bought myself some potatoes and I’ve been making baked potatoes and it’s so delicious and so fun and you can put anything on them. Like so much butter and so much cheese. And they’re so filling and hearty. It’s becoming summer and I’m sure I’m not gonna want to do it for much longer but I am enjoying jacket potatoes. VirginiaWhat do you put on yours? Do you have a go-to? Or are you trying different things?CorinneI’ve been trying different things but my go to right now is that I put on butter, cheddar cheese, black beans, salt, salsa—I have this like green chile salsa—sour cream and more cheese. It’s really, really good.VirginiaAlmost like a burrito.CorinneIt’s like a bean quesadilla on a potato. It’s so good, though. I was also playing around with some bacon. I could also see steak and eggs being good.VirginiaSour cream and bacon and chives is a classic jacket potato. CorinneThat’s more of an American topping, too. But they all are always doing like tuna mayo, which I’m like, I don’t know. VirginiaButter and then tuna. In England, that’s extremely normal. It’s interesting because we’re coming off a moment where a lot of people have opinions about how my kids eat butter. And I will say, it is a part of their British heritage. You put butter on every piece of bread and every potato. Like you are making a turkey sandwich and you are planning to use mayonnaise, you start with butter on the bread. Butter goes on the bread no matter what. My cousins will put butter—regular butter—and then peanut butter on top. You just always butter your bread. That’s just done.I remember as an American kid being like, ew the butter is going to mix with with the mayo. And I think it’s actually delicious. They’re geniuses. CorinneYeah. I feel like it actually has a purpose. It holds the mayo from seeping into the bread as much. VirginiaWell, and on the flip side, I feel like I often use mayo. Like if I’m making in the summer a tomato and cheese sandwich, I still want mayo in there even though I have the cheese. Even if I’m using a goat cheese or something spreadable.CorinneBut mayo is different because it’s acidic! It’s like salad dressing. VirginiaI need it for a buffer seal on the bread before I put the goat cheese on.CorinneI like the mayo for the flavor. VirginiaI’d also do a mayo-based sandwich, but I’m saying even if mayo is not the star player I want it on the sandwich. But some people hate mayo. It’s a polarizing condiment. CorinneThis is true. So anyways, I recommend jacket potatoes and watching jacket potato Tiktoks.VirginiaWell, since this is running in May, I felt like my Butter should be garden related. We’re recording this in late April and so in my gardening zone 6B, we can’t really start getting stuff in the ground till after May 15. You can do perennials but not annual type stuff. So I have these raised beds in my garden, which we initially conceived of during COVID as a vegetable garden, and then I remembered I didn’t like vegetable gardening. So now I do them every year as flowers and usually I don’t put a lot of thought into it. Around May 15, I go to a garden center and buy whatever annuals look fun and throw them all in and that’s delightful. But I had some extra time this year and I was like I can really plan out this cutting garden, like meticulously plan it out. I will do a screenshot of my multicolored spreadsheet. I spent hours this weekend just so happy down a rabbit hole planning it out. I’m doing the dahlia beds and the zinnia bed and the cosmos bed. And then I think we’re going to do some sunflower beds because my kids are always asking me to grow sunflowers. I’m planning the whole color palette so all the beds are going to go together. They’re not just going to be hodgepodge rainbow, which is delightful—don’t get me wrong. But I was like, I’m going to really do a thoughtful color palette and I’m in deep. I’m in deep.But it does mean I have to grow a lot more from seed. Like, I want to grow this cosmo called apricot lemonade. At the nurseries you’re always only going to get the white and purple cosmos. So that’s the kind of color scheme of the whole cutting garden. I’m doing all blush pinks and peaches. Maybe one hot pink because I cannot not have a hot pink dahlia. But I’m going to do more peaches and pink tones.So I have to order everything from seed and I haven’t ever done the cutting garden this much from seeds, so I’m a little nervous in case that doesn’t work. I have grown all of these flowers from seeds before but I’ve always intermixed it with some seedlings. So it’s going to be a little a little more complicated. But on the plus side, it was a lot cheaper. So stay tuned for the evolution of the cutting garden! I’m really excited but just planning it was such a good butter this weekend. CorinneThat’s great. VirginiaWell, this was very fun. If there are other shows with fat rep or diet culture themes that we should dissect, you guys tell us about them in the comments because this was a fun episode. ---The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith (follow me on Instagram) and Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, an Instagram account where you can buy and sell plus size clothing.The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.Our theme music is by Jeff Bailey and Chris Maxwell.Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!

Director Jeannie Finlay discusses 'Your Fat Friend' documentary, highlighting the challenges of representing fat life in media. They reflect on emotional connections with audiences and the impact of diverse storytelling. The episode also explores joyful moments and showcases the empowering artwork of fat British artist Taney Tinsley.

Stylist and author Dacy Gillespie joins for a fashion challenge debrief breaking traditional rules, navigating personal growth, exploring stylish yet comfortable jeans, reflections on planning outfits, documenting creativity, and exploring creativity in clothing. The hosts also discuss style influences on TikTok and trendy plus-size options in barrel pants.

Annie Nardolilli and Louisa Hall from Griefcat discuss their album Late Stage Capitalism, exploring capitalism's influence on various aspects of life. They touch on creating music, fat positivity, unique fashion choices, and even the topic of poop. The conversation highlights their creative process, challenges in the music industry, and plans for future albums.

Camille, a 13-year-old former gymnast, shares insights on the challenges faced by kids in larger bodies in sports. The podcast discusses toxic messages around exercise, body image, and the importance of creating inclusive and safe environments in youth sports. It also explores the harmful impact of appearance-centric weight standards on athletes and delves into the dark side of professionalization in youth sports, highlighting issues of abusive coaching and anti-fat bias.

You’re listening to Burnt Toast!We are Virginia Sole-Smith and Corinne Fay, and it’s time for your April Indulgence Gospel.VirginiaWhich we are recording in the same room!CorinneIt’s really weird. I’m really used to looking at my computer screen to see you.VirginiaI’m not in there. CorinneIt’s confusing.VirginiaTo paint the picture for everyone: I came to New Mexico. It’s my kids’ spring break from school. They’re on a trip with their dad. So I came to New Mexico so we could have the first official Burnt Toast offsite work retreat. I mean, it’s always offsite because we work out of our houses, but now we’re not in our houses. We are at Ojo Caliente, which is a hot springs spa resort in New Mexico, near Santa Fe. We spent the morning in the hot springs and now we are recording a podcast in my hotel room. We are surrounded by all of the pillows from the bed. You will need to bear with this audio not necessarily being quite as perfect as our normal audio because we are not in our home studios. CorinneWe will make up for that with in-person chemistry.VirginiaThe banter should be more delightful than ever! Here’s what we’re getting into:What to say if your tween switches to Diet Coke?How to embrace “joyful movement” when you hate exercise.Are electrolyte drinks a fun “end of day” beverage?Virginia’s most unpopular opinion (yes it’s about skinny jeans).This is a paywalled episode. That means to hear the whole thing you’ll need to be a paid Burnt Toast subscriber. Subscriptions are $5 per month or $50 for the year.Or you can join Extra Butter for just $99 for the year—which includes a monthly live chat and even more Indulgence Gospel, plus a comp subscription to Cult of Perfect!This transcript contains affiliate links. Shopping our links is another great way to support Burnt Toast!Episode 139 TranscriptCorinneSo, we’re here in person and the first thing I said to Virginia when I saw her today was, “what are those pants?” because they’re really cute.VirginiaAnd they are of course the Beyond Yoga comfy joggers that I wear every day. CorinneI have so far resisted buying them, but I think my resistance might be over.VirginiaI mean, I’m very comfortable. I don’t have a lot of new things to say about these joggers because I’ve talked about them incessantly.I will say that yesterday while we were visiting the Georgia O’Keeffe Museum, which we’ll talk about later, we were both wearing our Universal Standard straight leg jeans. And we were both hiking up our jeans a lot. CorinneAs we discussed with Dacy, I have—well, I’m not sure I even admitted this in the Dacy episode. I actually have those pants in three sizes. VirginiaI think you said two sizes.CorinneI have three, I realized, and I was wearing the biggest ones. And I’m in the week after my period, so maybe that was a mistake. VirginiaYou are now back to needing to be in your smallest ones. CorinneAlso what we realized is, you can’t put your wallet in your pocket when you’re wearing them. It pulls them down. VirginiaDrags them down. And we were just having a discussion in the Burnt Toast essay comments about using pockets for phones. I was like, I don’t because they pull my pants off my body. That was a real struggle for us yesterday.CorinneYou maybe just need to buy those jeans in two more sizes.VirginiaI’ll be waiting for sales.CorinneOr do we just need belts?VirginiaDo we need belts?CorinneI can’t imagine wearing those pants with a belt.VirginiaI don’t think I want a belt in my life. I feel pretty anti-belt.Do you have any other pants news? Any new pants you’re excited about?CorinneIt’s starting to get hot here, so I’m thinking way less about pants than I am about shorts. I have a few shorts that I have my eye on that I’m thinking about buying. I was traveling last week and I’ve become really dependent on these pants from the brand Free Label that are are no longer being made. So I’m starting to get stressed about it. Like, what’s going to be the replacement? They’re bamboo so they’re super soft and they’re a narrow leg. They’re just black, soft pants with a narrow leg. They’re versatile. You can wear them on the plane but also to the restaurant.VirginiaSpeaking as someone still working through her skinny jeans trauma, you know you had me at narrow leg.CorinneBut they’re not leggings, you know what I mean? VirginiaThey’re a taper. And I’m on a perpetual quest for the correct taper. CorinneI did message Free Label and they said they’re going to be making something similar in the fall.VirginiaOkay, Free Label. If you’re listening, we’re waiting. CorinneHopefully these pants last until the fall. VirginiaI’m having an overall craving because one of my kids asked for overalls for Easter, and is so, so thrilled with them and looks so cute in them. I realize I’m not a six year old, but it made me also want overalls. So I may be considering an overall purchase. I need to go back to some of our threads where we’ve recommended overalls. CorinneOveralls are a very good look. VirginiaAlright, I also have a quick update to read before we get to questions. So this came from a listener who wrote in to us a few months ago because she was planning a trip to New York City.She was going with a group of friends and she was the one fat friend and she was going to be pregnant. She was really stressed about going to Broadway and fitting in the theater seats and her friends were trying to buy tickets. We were really mad at her thin friends for not doing better advocacy for her, and had a lot of thoughts on how she could get through the trip. I just got this update from her. I think the trip was happening eminently. She wrote, I wanted to update you on the NYC Broadway situation. I did do some digging on the seat size at the venue of the specific show we were going to see and it showed up in a few posts about the really restrictive seating of certain theaters, so I didn’t feel the need to dig any further. I decided to just mention the seating situation to my one friend who I’m the closest with and we ended up making alternate plans, just the two of us, for the night the rest are going to Broadway. I’m very excited because we are going to a fancy Top Chef tasting menu dinner at the restaurant of the most recent Top Chef world winner. So it should be an awesome night for us and any awkwardness was avoided. Maybe not a win for overall fat liberation, but it certainly liberates my own fat body from discomfort, so I call that a win. CorinneI love this update because I know whose restaurant you’re going to. I’m also a Top Chef fan. I think we had suggested maybe you could just do something else, so I feel like this is a great solution.VirginiaTotal win. I love that you have that one friend who got it, and was on board and supportive, and you’re going to have a wonderful night. We love it.CorinneTotally. Thanks for that update.VirginiaAlright, should we do our questions? CorinneI’m going to read the first one because maybe now you have something to say about it.What is the best breakfast burrito in Albuquerque? And Virginia, how many did you eat?VirginiaOkay, so I’ve only been here two days so far but I am committed to this mission of eating a breakfast burrito every day I’m in New Mexico. I’ve had two so far. Yesterday I had one in Albuquerque. What was the name of that restaurant?CorinneWe went to Duran’s Central Pharmacy. VirginiaIt was spectacular and Corinne told me to get both red and green chile which I understand is called Christmas style. I loved it. This morning I had one in the restaurant here at Ojo because that’s the only place with breakfast here. And I went again with Christmas style. I feel like the Duran’s one was a little better. This one was good but I wasn’t like quite as blown away as I was by Duran’s. Although, to be fair, yesterday I got chorizo and today I got bacon. So I’m not being really clean with my data collection here. It’s not an apples to apples. But I do think the next thing we need to do is I need a drive thru breakfast burrito tomorrow to round out the experience. CorinneLet me just tell everyone a little bit about breakfast burritos. You can get breakfast burritos in a restaurant and they come on a plate and usually are covered in red and or green chile. You can also get breakfast burritos, like a handheld version, often through a drive thru, which is really fun and one of my favorite things probably about living in Albuquerque. I could never pick a favorite, that would be like asking me to pick a favorite child because they all have different pluses and minuses. Like there are some that are more spicy and are some that have real eggs and some that have the powdered eggs and—VirginiaWait, why would a powdered egg burrito ever be a contender? CorinneBecause the powdered egg burrito has really incredible potatoes. Really crispy square potatoes. And sometimes you need a quick drive thru burrito and sometimes you want the one that you have to wait in line for. There are a lot of different things to take into consideration.VirginiaDo you want to shout out a few more places? I’m not going to get to all of them on this trip, but just for New Mexico fans.CorinneSure! If you’re visiting—I mean, if anyone in Burnt Toast is visiting Albuquerque, send me a message. One Albuquerque classic place is Golden Pride. They have a couple of locations and a couple of drive throughs. I also like Stripes. I really like El Modelo, which was not a drive through. Blake’s is another New Mexico chain that has great breakfast burritos. I think those are good places to start. VirginiaWell, we’ll hit up one of them tomorrow. I’m excited. The next question has really rocked my world in a profound way. I’ve been thinking about it since it came in. Do you want to read it? CorinneIs the concern for what shoes to wear with pants a generational thing? Class? I pick shoes based on activity and occasion but it has nothing to do with pant length or width. VirginiaIf you’ve missed previous Indulgence Gospel episodes, I am on a perpetual journey to embrace straight leg jeans, but I struggle quite a lot with what shoes to wear with them. Because I always think about pants length and width with shoes! And I’ve been thinking for days that this person never considers that. What would my life be like if I never considered pants length or width when picking shoes?CorinneI don’t know. I’m a little like, does this person have no ego? You never think about how something you wear looks? VirginiaI’m fascinated. But they say, “pick shoes based on activity and occasion,” so I’m assuming by occasion that would include, like, a more formal shoe to certain things or a more casual shoe, but not consider the pants length and width. CorinneI sort of get this and I sort of don’t. On the one hand I’m like, but then I would just always be wearing…VirginiaYeah, what shoes would you always wear?CorinneI don’t know. That’s a good question. My first thought is I have these Merrell hiking boots that I think are so comfortable. But also like they’re kind of hot and they’re lace up. They’re annoying to put on.VirginiaYou’re not going to want to wear hiking boots every day of your life. CorinneSo I don’t know. I feel like if if it was possible, in another world, I would just wear socks all the time.VirginiaIf we could have a shoeless society. I feel like I would wear Birkenstocks most of the year.CorinneSandals? VirginiaIn a world where we have no weather, yes. Or possibly go between like the Birkenstock Boston clogs and a regular Birkenstock based on weather. And I cannot wear Birkenstocks with certain pants.CorinneYou can’t wear Birkenstocks with certain pants?VirginiaWith skinny jeans. No.CorinneI think I disagree with that. VirginiaNo, I can’t, Corinne. I can’t do it. Don’t say I’m adding this to the Style Challenge because I am not.CorinneYou can’t wear Birkenstock sandals with skinny jeans?VirginiaIf the skinny jean is cropped, I can. But if the skinny jean is like covering my ankle—Am I revealing myself to be an absolutely unhinged person right now?CorinneDo you have ankle fatphobia? VirginiaNo. But if jeans are covering my ankles, I think they look weird with the Birkenstocks.CorinneI need a photo because I just can’t picture this.VirginiaI can’t explain how I know these things to be true. But I know them in my soul. Like on a cellular level.CorinneWait, can you wear the Birkenstock clogs with skinny jeans?VirginiaNo. It’s too chunky of a shoe with a very tight ankle. It can do a cropped jean with a visible ankle, or it can do a wider leg. It can do shorts, no problem.CorinneWhat are the skinny jean shoes? VirginiaA cute sneaker or an ankle boot. If it’s summer, maybe a more stripped down sandal, something less bulky than a Birkenstock.CorinneOkay. I don’t think I’ve ever considered Birkenstocks a bulky shoe.VirginiaThey’re absolutely a bulky shoe.CorinneI feel like a bulky shoe is a hiking boot.VirginiaBut for a sandal. They are the bulkiest of sandals. Compare them to a flip flop.CorinneI would never wear flip flops.VirginiaI don’t know what this question reveals about me. I have such strong feelings and I can’t articulate it at all. CorinneWe need some deeper digging on this pant/shoe thing. We need a therapist to come in. Where did you learn this? VirginiaI don’t know. CorinneWho else in your family has this problem?VirginiaI should talk to my sister. CorinneOr is this from Seventeen Magazine? VirginiaI mean, that place did a number on me. I carry a lot of scars. I carry a lot of scars. I will say my dad, at Easter, was wearing Hokas and they were black with rainbow accents. We were so proud of him for buying such a trendy shoe! And he said, “Why? What brand are they?” Because my dad does not care about clothes. It was really adorable because we were like, “Who has the cool Hokas?” and he was like, “What’s a Hoka?”CorinneLike, how did you even end up with those, without knowing?VirginiaIt was amazing. But I can promise you, he has never thought about how his sneakers look with his pants. So I didn’t learn this from him.CorinneDo you have the same thing with like, shirts and pants? Or is it just pants and shoes?VirginiaI mean, I think with shirts it’s a length thing sometimes, like certain pants don’t go with a certain length shirt? But I think I’m probably more flexible there. I have really rigid beliefs about shoes and pants. I don’t know, guys, this is some ideology that I bought into long ago and I’m open to unlearning, but I want to know more about this person who never considers pant length or width. CorinneDo you think it’s a generational or class thing?VirginiaI’m always willing to say it’s a class thing. We can always blame the Connecticut WASPs. CorinneYeah. I mean, it does seem like if you only had one pair of shoes this wouldn’t be a thing. But I don’t know. VirginiaI think all fashion trends are classist. All fashion rules are inherently classist. Generational? I don’t know. CorinneI’m pretty sure my mom doesn’t worry about this. VirginiaNo, I don’t think my mom worries about it either. So maybe it is a millennial thing? CorinneWe need a Gen Z person to tell us.VirginiaAll I’m saying is these things go deep and I don’t know exactly how to break out of this trap. But here we are.Continuing with fashion questions:What are our predictions for summer fashion trends?CorinneMy prediction is shorts. Shorts will be worn. That is my prediction. Shorts are on trend. Not being hot is really cool for this summer.VirginiaSo if you were making an in/out list for summer, shorts are in. Is there anything that’s out for you?CorinneOh I don’t know. I haven’t quite pulled out my shorts yet. I kind of feel like linen shorts might be out. VirginiaWe know you’re over linen pants. CorinneI’m just tired of linen, I guess. Like I said, I’ve been looking for shorts. One thing I’ve been looking for is some elastic waist black or navy blue shorts that aren’t linen. Last year, I was wearing a lot of bike shorts and I’m curious if that will continue this summer.VirginiaI struggled to style bike shorts. CorinneThat’s right. Yes. VirginiaSo perhaps I should continue to experiment with that. VirginiaA shorts-related trend I am excited for is, we linked a while ago to this really cute set that Target was doing with a long-sleeve striped shirt and an elastic waist short. And I actually have the set with me here in Albuquerque. It hasn’t been quite shorts weather, but I optimistically packed sandals and I optimistically packed a pair of shorts. I mean, I was leaving the Northeast, I had to be open to the possibility.CorinneYou should wear them today just because.VirginiaWell, I will tell you, I bought this set because it was on sale at Target. And then I was on Instagram and Chrissy King, who is stunningly beautiful and fashionable, was on a trip to Mexico City wearing the same set. And I was like, oh, I’m here for this, Chrissy. It looked really good on her.I don’t think I’ll be pulling it off with quite the same level of glamour. But yeah, it looked really cute. She wore the shirt unbuttoned over a white tank top. I think I’m here for sets for summer.CorinneOne thing I feel like I need is a sun hat. Not a baseball cap.VirginiaWhereas I need a sun hat that’s not three feet in diameter because I only have this giant one that was too big to fit in my suitcase. Do I need a baseball cap? But I don’t think I have the head for baseball caps. CorinneInteresting. As for what will be trending for everyone else?VirginiaWe cannot know that because we are not 22-year-old TikTokers who will tell us at the appointed time what we will be wearing. CorinneI feel like there is always a sandal that everyone has and I don’t know what it’s going to be. VirginiaI feel like the flatform sandals are still very in. CorinneI got a chunky sole Birkenstock last summer and they’re really good. They’re in good enough shape that I can wear them again. VirginiaI did get a bright green pair of Birkenstocks. Those are my Optimistic Sandals that I packed for this trip and I love them. I’m into that very bright kelly green. But I want to hear what other people think about this one!CorinneYeah. Tell us your summer fashion trends. Okay.It seems like the rules on neutral colors are changing. What’s your stance?VirginiaI grouped this with the fashion questions because I’m assuming they mean clothing, but they might also mean home decor? I do think we’ve seen a very big shift from the beige, neutral, minimalist home decor to maximalist home decor. Much more color saturation, painting your ceiling and trim the same colors as the walls, wallpaper, lots of fun little patterns, pattern mixing. And I’m here for all of it. I love it.CorinneI didn’t know this. I didn’t know that the rules on neutral colors were changing.VirginiaWell, you’re pro-neutral colors, too. More so than me. CorinneI don’t know how I feel about this. When I heard this question, I was thinking that maybe some brighter colors were becoming neutrals.VirginiaWell, as you know, I believe red is a neutral. CorinneThat’s what I was thinking of, you thinking red is a neutral. I think there are some prints that are kind of neutrals now. Like leopard print I think is kind of a neutral. VirginiaOh, I cannot do leopard print. I respect it, but I just always think it looks like you’re trying to wear a dead animal. And yet my animal-loving children love leopard print. I think they see it as an homage. I mean, I’m inconsistent. We have fake fur throws in my house, so whatever.I would also say that black and white stripes or navy and white stripes—stripes are neutral. I think stripes in general are neutral. CorinneOne place that I have really let neutrals go actually is bedding. I’ve gotten really into printed sheets.VirginiaIt’s hard because the bougie high quality sheet brands still do a lot of neutrals. Like Brooklinen or all the ones that Instagram sells you. It’s all neutral tones.CorinneBrooklinen has some bright colors. VirginiaOh yes, they do a bright pink.CorinneI have like a bright lime-y yellow green and a patterned sheet set from them. Also Anthropologie home. VirginiaThey have gorgeous stuff. CorinneAnd, I see this brand all the time on Instagram—Piglet in Bed? They have really cute colorful striped bedding. Someone tell us if it’s actually good, because it’s very cute.VirginiaAmy and I both got a set of Pottery Barn Teen sheets for our respective beds. I think for patterns, it often helps to look at the teen lines. And yes, we’re Sheet Twins from multiple states away. That’s just how our friendship is. I’m totally comfortable with that. CorinneActually the first printed floral sheets I bought, my best friend recommended.VirginiaYes, I copied her completely.So I’m here for changing away from neutral colors. I think neutrals can be helpful and sometimes you just want a base. I’m just looking at my shirts on the wall over there, and I did kind of pick blue/teal as the one color I brought. So things would kind of go together and I wasn’t jumbling a lot of colors. But if I had just packed like black and white, I would have felt bored all week.CorinneOkay, I’m going to ask the next question.My 10 year old daughter just began ordering Diet Coke without any discussion. Should I bring it up?VirginiaI’m drinking a Diet Coke as I think about your question, just so we’re clear. I’m almost never not drinking a Diet Coke, at least if it’s before 2pm. After that, I have to get careful about caffeine. Anyway.I would bring it up in a very casual, curious, non-concerned way. Just like, “I saw you switched to Diet Coke. Do you like the taste better?” You know, just very, like, “Oh, that’s interesting.” Or even just like, “I didn’t know you were a Diet Coke fan,” and just leave it at that. It could absolutely just be a flavor preference. A lot of us think it tastes better than regular Coke. But if she always drank regular soda and she suddenly switched to Diet Coke and you’re noticing any other warning signs about body concern? I think it’s something to be curious about.What do you think?CorinneYeah, I think I agree. I would probably try to ask something. It seems like it could be a tough thing to ask in a neutral way, because you sound like you might be concerned. VirginiaI think, “oh, I didn’t know you were a Diet Coke fan.” Maybe practicing it in your room for a little bit, till you find a really neutral tone with it.CorinneI think you could be like, “Oh, I tried Diet Coke and I like the regular better.”VirginiaIf that’s your truth, but if it’s not your truth—I can’t pretend.If this is stuff you have at home, you could be out of the Diet Coke one day and see if she’ll still drink regular Coke. And if not, be curious about that. Just to feel it out. I’m here for it totally just being a preference, but I acknowledge that an abrupt shift would be something worthy of some follow up. Okay, this person says,How do you find purposeful and joyful movement that doesn’t cost an arm and a leg?I’ve never enjoyed sports or any exercise really. There was a time when I enjoyed AquaZumba and Rowhouse. But cost is always a factor. Have you seen gym prices lately? I do enjoy a good walk with a podcast or audiobook but I live in Florida where nine months out of the year, it’s gross as hell. So when I do drag myself out for a walk, it feels like exercise and something I have to do and rooted in diet culture instead of something enjoyable.CorinneI have a lot of thoughts about this one. If you’re not enjoying exercise, I would try to pair it with something you do enjoy and do your exercising with a friend or something. Listening to an audiobook is a great tip.As far as affordable stuff goes, I don’t know about Florida, but where I live there are public pools that are pretty cheap and you can get a season pass to them. I know they offer classes like aqua aerobics or whatever. Or you can just go and paddle around or go and walk back and forth in the lanes which is fun, and a nice way to cool down. VirginiaThat does sound nice, especially in Florida. CorinneA lot of YMCAs are not super expensive and have subsidized memberships.VirginiaI’m also aware I don’t know what affordable means to this person. My exercise budget is my Lauren Leavell membership, which I think is $40 or $50 a month for unlimited online workouts that I can do at home. I did have to buy weights, but that was a one time expense. That feels super affordable to me because I do it twice a week, so the per class cost is pretty low. But maybe that’s not in this person’s budget, which I totally respect. CorinneI pay for a gym membership and I pay for coaching. The coaching is definitely not cheap, but the gym membership is around $30 a month. VirginiaSo that’s even cheaper. CorinneAlso, if you’re somewhere hot, I would probably try to find a cheap gym membership and a friend to go with so that it’s more fun and also not super expensive. Also, if that’s an area that you’re from, sometimes your college will let you have a cheaper membership as an alum or some people’s workplaces have gyms or my health insurance will cover certain gym memberships. So those are things to look into.VirginiaI also want to say: If you don’t enjoy sports or exercise, you don’t have to do sports or exercise. You can just decide this isn’t something you do, and maybe your movement is cleaning your house, or walks on the few cool days you have, or gardening, or a dance party in your kitchen with your kids. I was just listening to an NPR thing where they did a study on the health benefits of having people stand up and move around for five minutes every hour, two hours or something. And part of me is like, that would get annoying really fast. I don’t want to have to remember to get up from my desk for five minutes every hour. And part of me is like: If I was in a season of life where formal exercise wasn’t feeling good, maybe that’s something to play with. And maybe you don’t do it every hour, but you do it two or three times a day—and that’s 15 minutes of movement you didn’t have otherwise, and that might feel great. CorinneI just think if you’re like, this is exercise and I have to do it for X, Y, &Z health reason, you’re never going to be consistent about it. If you have a buddy and you like seeing your buddy or you’re like, “This is my time that I watch Real Housewives,” then it can become more of a routine. I think we’re probably both people that have found that exercise does, unfortunately, kind of make you feel good. It’s the worst. I never want to give anyone that advice, but it really does help me.VirginiaIt’s enraging. It’s enraging and I don’t like it. But yes, my grumpy little walks are always a mood booster.CorinneI’m also sure that part of the reason I’m consistent with my training is because I pay a coach, and I don’t want to be paying this person this money and not be using it.VirginiaAssuming you have the budget, that is another way to think about it. Will spending the money make you more again—not do something you don’t you truly don’t like and you’re dragging yourself there and it’s miserable—but will that be an extra motivator to make sure you get value out of that? Sometimes that is a way of reframing the budget, I guess. That doesn’t work for everyone. I have certainly paid for gym memberships that I didn’t use and it was just wasteful. Do you have any fun end of day mocktails or non alcoholic beverage recs? I’m tired of seltzer and I don’t want alcohol every day.CorinneI love this question. Both of us are not huge drinkers and something we have been discussing a lot on this trip is electrolytes, because I love electrolyte drinks. VirginiaThat is not a fun end of the day beverage!CorinneI feel differently. Okay, this is not my only recommendation, but I just want to say I like electrolyte drinks. And I want to say that when I was recently at a very good, popular beloved bar, in a good food city, and I asked for a non-alcoholic drink. And they made me a salty coconut lime drink and it was so delicious and had like a whiff of an electrolyte drink, with the salt. It was sweet and salty. It was so good. VirginiaOkay, people have to understand my first day here, the altitude was getting to me and I was super nauseous. And Corinne was like, “electrolytes electrolytes, electrolytes.” So she gave me one of her little tabs and I put it in my water bottle and I almost vomited in her car immediately. I did drink the entire thing last night and I do feel better. But it was a journey. It was very difficult for me. CorinneAnd I apologize for that. VirginiaNo, you were right. Medicinally, it was useful, but I cannot describe that as fun.CorinneOkay, it’s not a mocktail, but I like coconut water, and I like cucumber lime Gatorade, and sometimes I will drink those. However, here’s my real recommendation. I like to fill up a quart jar with a lot of ice and then I like to fill it halfway with limeade and then fill it the rest of the way with flavored seltzer. VirginiaOkay, that sounds delightful. CorinneIt’s delightful. It’s very refreshing and delicious. VirginiaI’m on board with that.CorinneI like to use peach pear Lacroix.VirginiaOkay, that I’m into. I have two recs.One, I know you’re tired of seltzer. But if you have a Walmart near you, I want you to get the Clear American Mandarin Orange seltzer. It is the most delicious of all seltzers. The reason it is the most delicious is because it is flavored with aspartame, which is possibly my electrolytes. But I am telling you, the number of people who come to my house and have this seltzer and then go and buy it because they’re like, What is this delicious seltzer?It’s a little sweeter than your average seltzer, but it’s still very refreshing. I don’t like a non-refreshing, overly complicated seltzer flavor. I buy so much of it and drink so much of it. That is the most delicious seltzer, so that would be my rec if you’re like I think I’m tired of seltzer but you’ve been drinking Buble or Lacroix or all these like hipster-y fancy brands. You need Walmart Clear American. CorinneI want to recommend a seltzer flavor, too, which is Whole Foods brand has a ginger flavored Seltzer which I think is really good.VirginiaThat sounds like something I would have appreciated drinking yesterday instead of the electrolytes. CorinneWe should have gotten ginger seltzer instead of grapefruit when we went to Whole Foods!VirginiaThen my one other rec for non-alcoholic beverages is I’ve been getting into the TÖST non-alcoholic rosé. It’s elderflower and something. I really enjoy that with some ice cubes and maybe a little seltzer if you want it to be fizzy, but the main flavor will be the non-alcoholic rosé situation. I really like that. And it’s pink and feels fancy. CorinneYeah, I’m really curious about a lot of those non alcoholic spirit things like Ghia. So if anyone really likes those, tell us.Leave a commentVirginiaI have tried a few here and there, but I haven’t found any that I’m like in love with.CorinneSame. Okay,What are your favorite cookies, please?VirginiaI mean, I’m an old school chocolate chip fan. I usually make the recipe on the back of the Ghiradelli semi sweet chocolate chip bag. My kids consider that the only chocolate chip cookie and when I do try to branch out they generally won’t eat them.I also will give a shout out to my cousin Kate who runs a gluten-free bakery in Philadelphia called A Summers Treat and they make a Nutella-stuffed gluten-free chocolate chunk cookie. And look, I am very picky about the gluten-free concept. I am glad that they are making this available for their fellow Celiac folks, obviously. We need that option, but I will be the first one to say, “This needed gluten to taste good.” But these cookies were so insanely delicious. They’re not shipping yet, but if you’re in Philadelphia, get on that cookie situation.CorinneThat sounds really good. I’m also a chocolate chip cookie fan and my recipe of choice is BA’s best chocolate chip cookie. It’s made with brown butter. The thing I like about that is then you don’t have to cream the butter. It’s like kind of faster. You brown part of the butter and then you add in cold butter to cool it down. Then you can just mix it all together. I like to make it and I’ll like bake a few cookies and then I scoop the rest and put them in the fridge or the freezer and bake them as I want them. I brought some of those cookies for us, so don’t forget to eat them. VirginiaOkay, I absolutely will not forget. We will finish the episode first, but we will not forget about that. Alright, last question we’re going to answer today.What do you like most about each other?This is a really sweet one.CorinneThis is a hard one to answer! It’s hard to pick one thing you like about someone. That’s a lot of pressure.VirginiaI assume it’s my rigid beliefs about pants and shoes.CorinneI mean, I don’t even know where to start. Virginia is very smart. Very fun to talk to. Very fun to hang out with. Has a good attitude. I was really impressed with the way you handled your altitude sickness because I think I would have just thrown myself on the ground and gone no further.VirginiaThat’s hilarious. Well, you said you were more of a puker than I am.I will also say Corinne is very smart. Very fun to talk to. She’s a very good listener. What else do I want to say? I mean it is a hard question.CorinneIt’s a hard question.VirginiaShe’s introduced me to breakfast burritos, so that’s pretty important.We’re recording this episode the week I published the piece about 5 Problems I Solved With Shopping, which has generated so much discussion on the newsletter and a lot of both positive and negative feedback. Corinne is really good at nuanced conversations and holding space for multiple perspectives. So as the comments have been coming in and I have been processing and thinking about, like, did I screw this up? Did we make space for this? You’re a very good sounding board. You’ll be supportive and have my back, but also make space for the all the perspectives. CorinneWell, that’s really nice.VirginiaDo you have anything else you want to say about me?CorinneIs there anything we’re surprised by about meeting in real life?VirginiaOh, that’s a good question.CorinneI wish I had an answer but I don’t think I do.VirginiaI’m not surprised, but it is surprising that it feels like we’ve hung out a lot before.CorinneThat’s true. It didn’t feel like an awkward first meeting. VirginiaI mean, I’m not going to share everything we talked about off mic, but I will say—CorinnePlease don’t.VirginiaWe immediately got into the gossip, people. Like 5th date level conversations. We’ve gone down some rabbit holes.CorinneThat’s really true. VirginiaWe did not warm up to talking about stuff. CorinneI think because there’s a lot of things we like about each other, it feels comfortable to talk about some more personal stuff. No one ask us about it. No follow up questions.VirginiaThere’s no drama to be discussed.CorinneNope, nope, nope.Leave a commentButterVirginiaI’m going to talk about the transformative spiritual experience of going to the Georgia O’Keeffe house. I will start that with the caveat that I do know, and Corinne explained further to me, that there’s some discourse around Georgia O’Keeffe being a problematic white lady who tried to claim a lot of New Mexico for herself. So yeah, fully aware of that and acknowledging the complicatedness of it all. But also—the house is magical and beautiful. The views are exquisite. Her aesthetic is so beautiful. And just, the absolute icon energy of this woman who after her husband died, was like, I’m going to spend years building this house in a very rural part of New Mexico where I’ve never lived before and figure out how to live here alone as a woman at a time when that was not particularly done. And then went on to be creating amazing art well into her 80s and 90s, after losing much of her vision. And she was possibly having an affair with her 50 year younger assistant.CorinneNobody knows.VirginiaI mean, maybe particularly for where I am in my life right now as a newly single person and looking at the expanse of that—there just felt like so much possibility. You think about her story and you realize, we place such an emphasis on youth in this culture on checking certain boxes in this culture. So to see someone who was continuing to do new things in her 80s is so inspiring. She’s like, “It’s time for me to learn ceramics.” I hope when I’m in my 80s I am still that invigorated and passionate about not necessarily work, but curious about the world.  CorinneHer house is really special and if you’re out here, I would definitely recommend checking it out.VirginiaI’m going to be thinking about it for a long time. What about you?CorinneMy butter is Jewelry TikTok. I don’t know how this happened, but somehow I have started getting served TikToks about jewelry and I’m not an ASMR person, but for some reason this JewelryTok stuff just scratches some weird itch that I didn’t even know I had. I’m now obsessed with looking at gems and charms and there’s just something so tactile about it. They’re pretty and clickety-clackety and they’re golden. They’re precious. It feels like this weird callback to childhood, playing with tiny things. I don’t know. I hardly wear jewelry at all but I’m trying to get into it now because I’m obsessed with mostly this one account. I’m also not a nails person, but I feel like they always have like really nice nails and hands and stuff. But yeah, I’m finding myself weirdly obsessed with JewelryTok. And I feel like I’m not alone. I think I’m starting to see a lot more like fashion and plus size influencer people showing their—I forget what they call it. Neck mess or charm stack or ring sack or something? Anyways, there’s just something very pleasing about it.VirginiaDo you know it’s possible to have a true phobia of jewelry? That that’s a real thing. A friend of mine has it. CorinneThe phobia is the feeling of it? VirginiaI think the feeling of metal or the texture I don’t know. I’ll try to find this piece that my friend wrote about it years ago. (Post-Recording Update: My friend’s essay has vanished from the Internet but here’s a good explainer and here’s a Reddit thread for more.) So just to put it out there if you’re like, “That sounds horrible.” You are not alone. And that’s a valid reaction. CorinneI do think part of the appeal is like the tactile-ness. So I could see why some people would not like it. VirginiaWell, this was a delight. I wish we could record all our episodes in person.CorinneI know. It would be fun.VirginiaMaybe in another future iteration of Burnt Toast.CorinneShould we try to arrange our lives so that we can record from hot springs spa resorts every week? VirginiaThat seems like a reasonable use of Extra Butter subscriptions? Everyone join Extra Butter so our hot springs budget can really go up!CorinneWe just need to start selling million dollar paintings like like Georgia.VirginiaWell, life is long, Corinne. That’s what we learned.---Today’s Indulgence Gospel was produced and hosted by Corinne and Virginia. Follow us on Instagram: @v_solesmith and @selltradeplus.The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.Our theme music is by Jeff Bailey and Chris Maxwell.Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.Thanks for listening and for supporting independent anti diet journalism.