The Burnt Toast Podcast

Camille, a 13-year-old former gymnast, shares insights on the challenges faced by kids in larger bodies in sports. The podcast discusses toxic messages around exercise, body image, and the importance of creating inclusive and safe environments in youth sports. It also explores the harmful impact of appearance-centric weight standards on athletes and delves into the dark side of professionalization in youth sports, highlighting issues of abusive coaching and anti-fat bias.

You’re listening to Burnt Toast!We are Virginia Sole-Smith and Corinne Fay, and it’s time for your April Indulgence Gospel.VirginiaWhich we are recording in the same room!CorinneIt’s really weird. I’m really used to looking at my computer screen to see you.VirginiaI’m not in there. CorinneIt’s confusing.VirginiaTo paint the picture for everyone: I came to New Mexico. It’s my kids’ spring break from school. They’re on a trip with their dad. So I came to New Mexico so we could have the first official Burnt Toast offsite work retreat. I mean, it’s always offsite because we work out of our houses, but now we’re not in our houses. We are at Ojo Caliente, which is a hot springs spa resort in New Mexico, near Santa Fe. We spent the morning in the hot springs and now we are recording a podcast in my hotel room. We are surrounded by all of the pillows from the bed. You will need to bear with this audio not necessarily being quite as perfect as our normal audio because we are not in our home studios. CorinneWe will make up for that with in-person chemistry.VirginiaThe banter should be more delightful than ever! Here’s what we’re getting into:What to say if your tween switches to Diet Coke?How to embrace “joyful movement” when you hate exercise.Are electrolyte drinks a fun “end of day” beverage?Virginia’s most unpopular opinion (yes it’s about skinny jeans).This is a paywalled episode. That means to hear the whole thing you’ll need to be a paid Burnt Toast subscriber. Subscriptions are $5 per month or $50 for the year.Or you can join Extra Butter for just $99 for the year—which includes a monthly live chat and even more Indulgence Gospel, plus a comp subscription to Cult of Perfect!This transcript contains affiliate links. Shopping our links is another great way to support Burnt Toast!Episode 139 TranscriptCorinneSo, we’re here in person and the first thing I said to Virginia when I saw her today was, “what are those pants?” because they’re really cute.VirginiaAnd they are of course the Beyond Yoga comfy joggers that I wear every day. CorinneI have so far resisted buying them, but I think my resistance might be over.VirginiaI mean, I’m very comfortable. I don’t have a lot of new things to say about these joggers because I’ve talked about them incessantly.I will say that yesterday while we were visiting the Georgia O’Keeffe Museum, which we’ll talk about later, we were both wearing our Universal Standard straight leg jeans. And we were both hiking up our jeans a lot. CorinneAs we discussed with Dacy, I have—well, I’m not sure I even admitted this in the Dacy episode. I actually have those pants in three sizes. VirginiaI think you said two sizes.CorinneI have three, I realized, and I was wearing the biggest ones. And I’m in the week after my period, so maybe that was a mistake. VirginiaYou are now back to needing to be in your smallest ones. CorinneAlso what we realized is, you can’t put your wallet in your pocket when you’re wearing them. It pulls them down. VirginiaDrags them down. And we were just having a discussion in the Burnt Toast essay comments about using pockets for phones. I was like, I don’t because they pull my pants off my body. That was a real struggle for us yesterday.CorinneYou maybe just need to buy those jeans in two more sizes.VirginiaI’ll be waiting for sales.CorinneOr do we just need belts?VirginiaDo we need belts?CorinneI can’t imagine wearing those pants with a belt.VirginiaI don’t think I want a belt in my life. I feel pretty anti-belt.Do you have any other pants news? Any new pants you’re excited about?CorinneIt’s starting to get hot here, so I’m thinking way less about pants than I am about shorts. I have a few shorts that I have my eye on that I’m thinking about buying. I was traveling last week and I’ve become really dependent on these pants from the brand Free Label that are are no longer being made. So I’m starting to get stressed about it. Like, what’s going to be the replacement? They’re bamboo so they’re super soft and they’re a narrow leg. They’re just black, soft pants with a narrow leg. They’re versatile. You can wear them on the plane but also to the restaurant.VirginiaSpeaking as someone still working through her skinny jeans trauma, you know you had me at narrow leg.CorinneBut they’re not leggings, you know what I mean? VirginiaThey’re a taper. And I’m on a perpetual quest for the correct taper. CorinneI did message Free Label and they said they’re going to be making something similar in the fall.VirginiaOkay, Free Label. If you’re listening, we’re waiting. CorinneHopefully these pants last until the fall. VirginiaI’m having an overall craving because one of my kids asked for overalls for Easter, and is so, so thrilled with them and looks so cute in them. I realize I’m not a six year old, but it made me also want overalls. So I may be considering an overall purchase. I need to go back to some of our threads where we’ve recommended overalls. CorinneOveralls are a very good look. VirginiaAlright, I also have a quick update to read before we get to questions. So this came from a listener who wrote in to us a few months ago because she was planning a trip to New York City.She was going with a group of friends and she was the one fat friend and she was going to be pregnant. She was really stressed about going to Broadway and fitting in the theater seats and her friends were trying to buy tickets. We were really mad at her thin friends for not doing better advocacy for her, and had a lot of thoughts on how she could get through the trip. I just got this update from her. I think the trip was happening eminently. She wrote, I wanted to update you on the NYC Broadway situation. I did do some digging on the seat size at the venue of the specific show we were going to see and it showed up in a few posts about the really restrictive seating of certain theaters, so I didn’t feel the need to dig any further. I decided to just mention the seating situation to my one friend who I’m the closest with and we ended up making alternate plans, just the two of us, for the night the rest are going to Broadway. I’m very excited because we are going to a fancy Top Chef tasting menu dinner at the restaurant of the most recent Top Chef world winner. So it should be an awesome night for us and any awkwardness was avoided. Maybe not a win for overall fat liberation, but it certainly liberates my own fat body from discomfort, so I call that a win. CorinneI love this update because I know whose restaurant you’re going to. I’m also a Top Chef fan. I think we had suggested maybe you could just do something else, so I feel like this is a great solution.VirginiaTotal win. I love that you have that one friend who got it, and was on board and supportive, and you’re going to have a wonderful night. We love it.CorinneTotally. Thanks for that update.VirginiaAlright, should we do our questions? CorinneI’m going to read the first one because maybe now you have something to say about it.What is the best breakfast burrito in Albuquerque? And Virginia, how many did you eat?VirginiaOkay, so I’ve only been here two days so far but I am committed to this mission of eating a breakfast burrito every day I’m in New Mexico. I’ve had two so far. Yesterday I had one in Albuquerque. What was the name of that restaurant?CorinneWe went to Duran’s Central Pharmacy. VirginiaIt was spectacular and Corinne told me to get both red and green chile which I understand is called Christmas style. I loved it. This morning I had one in the restaurant here at Ojo because that’s the only place with breakfast here. And I went again with Christmas style. I feel like the Duran’s one was a little better. This one was good but I wasn’t like quite as blown away as I was by Duran’s. Although, to be fair, yesterday I got chorizo and today I got bacon. So I’m not being really clean with my data collection here. It’s not an apples to apples. But I do think the next thing we need to do is I need a drive thru breakfast burrito tomorrow to round out the experience. CorinneLet me just tell everyone a little bit about breakfast burritos. You can get breakfast burritos in a restaurant and they come on a plate and usually are covered in red and or green chile. You can also get breakfast burritos, like a handheld version, often through a drive thru, which is really fun and one of my favorite things probably about living in Albuquerque. I could never pick a favorite, that would be like asking me to pick a favorite child because they all have different pluses and minuses. Like there are some that are more spicy and are some that have real eggs and some that have the powdered eggs and—VirginiaWait, why would a powdered egg burrito ever be a contender? CorinneBecause the powdered egg burrito has really incredible potatoes. Really crispy square potatoes. And sometimes you need a quick drive thru burrito and sometimes you want the one that you have to wait in line for. There are a lot of different things to take into consideration.VirginiaDo you want to shout out a few more places? I’m not going to get to all of them on this trip, but just for New Mexico fans.CorinneSure! If you’re visiting—I mean, if anyone in Burnt Toast is visiting Albuquerque, send me a message. One Albuquerque classic place is Golden Pride. They have a couple of locations and a couple of drive throughs. I also like Stripes. I really like El Modelo, which was not a drive through. Blake’s is another New Mexico chain that has great breakfast burritos. I think those are good places to start. VirginiaWell, we’ll hit up one of them tomorrow. I’m excited. The next question has really rocked my world in a profound way. I’ve been thinking about it since it came in. Do you want to read it? CorinneIs the concern for what shoes to wear with pants a generational thing? Class? I pick shoes based on activity and occasion but it has nothing to do with pant length or width. VirginiaIf you’ve missed previous Indulgence Gospel episodes, I am on a perpetual journey to embrace straight leg jeans, but I struggle quite a lot with what shoes to wear with them. Because I always think about pants length and width with shoes! And I’ve been thinking for days that this person never considers that. What would my life be like if I never considered pants length or width when picking shoes?CorinneI don’t know. I’m a little like, does this person have no ego? You never think about how something you wear looks? VirginiaI’m fascinated. But they say, “pick shoes based on activity and occasion,” so I’m assuming by occasion that would include, like, a more formal shoe to certain things or a more casual shoe, but not consider the pants length and width. CorinneI sort of get this and I sort of don’t. On the one hand I’m like, but then I would just always be wearing…VirginiaYeah, what shoes would you always wear?CorinneI don’t know. That’s a good question. My first thought is I have these Merrell hiking boots that I think are so comfortable. But also like they’re kind of hot and they’re lace up. They’re annoying to put on.VirginiaYou’re not going to want to wear hiking boots every day of your life. CorinneSo I don’t know. I feel like if if it was possible, in another world, I would just wear socks all the time.VirginiaIf we could have a shoeless society. I feel like I would wear Birkenstocks most of the year.CorinneSandals? VirginiaIn a world where we have no weather, yes. Or possibly go between like the Birkenstock Boston clogs and a regular Birkenstock based on weather. And I cannot wear Birkenstocks with certain pants.CorinneYou can’t wear Birkenstocks with certain pants?VirginiaWith skinny jeans. No.CorinneI think I disagree with that. VirginiaNo, I can’t, Corinne. I can’t do it. Don’t say I’m adding this to the Style Challenge because I am not.CorinneYou can’t wear Birkenstock sandals with skinny jeans?VirginiaIf the skinny jean is cropped, I can. But if the skinny jean is like covering my ankle—Am I revealing myself to be an absolutely unhinged person right now?CorinneDo you have ankle fatphobia? VirginiaNo. But if jeans are covering my ankles, I think they look weird with the Birkenstocks.CorinneI need a photo because I just can’t picture this.VirginiaI can’t explain how I know these things to be true. But I know them in my soul. Like on a cellular level.CorinneWait, can you wear the Birkenstock clogs with skinny jeans?VirginiaNo. It’s too chunky of a shoe with a very tight ankle. It can do a cropped jean with a visible ankle, or it can do a wider leg. It can do shorts, no problem.CorinneWhat are the skinny jean shoes? VirginiaA cute sneaker or an ankle boot. If it’s summer, maybe a more stripped down sandal, something less bulky than a Birkenstock.CorinneOkay. I don’t think I’ve ever considered Birkenstocks a bulky shoe.VirginiaThey’re absolutely a bulky shoe.CorinneI feel like a bulky shoe is a hiking boot.VirginiaBut for a sandal. They are the bulkiest of sandals. Compare them to a flip flop.CorinneI would never wear flip flops.VirginiaI don’t know what this question reveals about me. I have such strong feelings and I can’t articulate it at all. CorinneWe need some deeper digging on this pant/shoe thing. We need a therapist to come in. Where did you learn this? VirginiaI don’t know. CorinneWho else in your family has this problem?VirginiaI should talk to my sister. CorinneOr is this from Seventeen Magazine? VirginiaI mean, that place did a number on me. I carry a lot of scars. I carry a lot of scars. I will say my dad, at Easter, was wearing Hokas and they were black with rainbow accents. We were so proud of him for buying such a trendy shoe! And he said, “Why? What brand are they?” Because my dad does not care about clothes. It was really adorable because we were like, “Who has the cool Hokas?” and he was like, “What’s a Hoka?”CorinneLike, how did you even end up with those, without knowing?VirginiaIt was amazing. But I can promise you, he has never thought about how his sneakers look with his pants. So I didn’t learn this from him.CorinneDo you have the same thing with like, shirts and pants? Or is it just pants and shoes?VirginiaI mean, I think with shirts it’s a length thing sometimes, like certain pants don’t go with a certain length shirt? But I think I’m probably more flexible there. I have really rigid beliefs about shoes and pants. I don’t know, guys, this is some ideology that I bought into long ago and I’m open to unlearning, but I want to know more about this person who never considers pant length or width. CorinneDo you think it’s a generational or class thing?VirginiaI’m always willing to say it’s a class thing. We can always blame the Connecticut WASPs. CorinneYeah. I mean, it does seem like if you only had one pair of shoes this wouldn’t be a thing. But I don’t know. VirginiaI think all fashion trends are classist. All fashion rules are inherently classist. Generational? I don’t know. CorinneI’m pretty sure my mom doesn’t worry about this. VirginiaNo, I don’t think my mom worries about it either. So maybe it is a millennial thing? CorinneWe need a Gen Z person to tell us.VirginiaAll I’m saying is these things go deep and I don’t know exactly how to break out of this trap. But here we are.Continuing with fashion questions:What are our predictions for summer fashion trends?CorinneMy prediction is shorts. Shorts will be worn. That is my prediction. Shorts are on trend. Not being hot is really cool for this summer.VirginiaSo if you were making an in/out list for summer, shorts are in. Is there anything that’s out for you?CorinneOh I don’t know. I haven’t quite pulled out my shorts yet. I kind of feel like linen shorts might be out. VirginiaWe know you’re over linen pants. CorinneI’m just tired of linen, I guess. Like I said, I’ve been looking for shorts. One thing I’ve been looking for is some elastic waist black or navy blue shorts that aren’t linen. Last year, I was wearing a lot of bike shorts and I’m curious if that will continue this summer.VirginiaI struggled to style bike shorts. CorinneThat’s right. Yes. VirginiaSo perhaps I should continue to experiment with that. VirginiaA shorts-related trend I am excited for is, we linked a while ago to this really cute set that Target was doing with a long-sleeve striped shirt and an elastic waist short. And I actually have the set with me here in Albuquerque. It hasn’t been quite shorts weather, but I optimistically packed sandals and I optimistically packed a pair of shorts. I mean, I was leaving the Northeast, I had to be open to the possibility.CorinneYou should wear them today just because.VirginiaWell, I will tell you, I bought this set because it was on sale at Target. And then I was on Instagram and Chrissy King, who is stunningly beautiful and fashionable, was on a trip to Mexico City wearing the same set. And I was like, oh, I’m here for this, Chrissy. It looked really good on her.I don’t think I’ll be pulling it off with quite the same level of glamour. But yeah, it looked really cute. She wore the shirt unbuttoned over a white tank top. I think I’m here for sets for summer.CorinneOne thing I feel like I need is a sun hat. Not a baseball cap.VirginiaWhereas I need a sun hat that’s not three feet in diameter because I only have this giant one that was too big to fit in my suitcase. Do I need a baseball cap? But I don’t think I have the head for baseball caps. CorinneInteresting. As for what will be trending for everyone else?VirginiaWe cannot know that because we are not 22-year-old TikTokers who will tell us at the appointed time what we will be wearing. CorinneI feel like there is always a sandal that everyone has and I don’t know what it’s going to be. VirginiaI feel like the flatform sandals are still very in. CorinneI got a chunky sole Birkenstock last summer and they’re really good. They’re in good enough shape that I can wear them again. VirginiaI did get a bright green pair of Birkenstocks. Those are my Optimistic Sandals that I packed for this trip and I love them. I’m into that very bright kelly green. But I want to hear what other people think about this one!CorinneYeah. Tell us your summer fashion trends. Okay.It seems like the rules on neutral colors are changing. What’s your stance?VirginiaI grouped this with the fashion questions because I’m assuming they mean clothing, but they might also mean home decor? I do think we’ve seen a very big shift from the beige, neutral, minimalist home decor to maximalist home decor. Much more color saturation, painting your ceiling and trim the same colors as the walls, wallpaper, lots of fun little patterns, pattern mixing. And I’m here for all of it. I love it.CorinneI didn’t know this. I didn’t know that the rules on neutral colors were changing.VirginiaWell, you’re pro-neutral colors, too. More so than me. CorinneI don’t know how I feel about this. When I heard this question, I was thinking that maybe some brighter colors were becoming neutrals.VirginiaWell, as you know, I believe red is a neutral. CorinneThat’s what I was thinking of, you thinking red is a neutral. I think there are some prints that are kind of neutrals now. Like leopard print I think is kind of a neutral. VirginiaOh, I cannot do leopard print. I respect it, but I just always think it looks like you’re trying to wear a dead animal. And yet my animal-loving children love leopard print. I think they see it as an homage. I mean, I’m inconsistent. We have fake fur throws in my house, so whatever.I would also say that black and white stripes or navy and white stripes—stripes are neutral. I think stripes in general are neutral. CorinneOne place that I have really let neutrals go actually is bedding. I’ve gotten really into printed sheets.VirginiaIt’s hard because the bougie high quality sheet brands still do a lot of neutrals. Like Brooklinen or all the ones that Instagram sells you. It’s all neutral tones.CorinneBrooklinen has some bright colors. VirginiaOh yes, they do a bright pink.CorinneI have like a bright lime-y yellow green and a patterned sheet set from them. Also Anthropologie home. VirginiaThey have gorgeous stuff. CorinneAnd, I see this brand all the time on Instagram—Piglet in Bed? They have really cute colorful striped bedding. Someone tell us if it’s actually good, because it’s very cute.VirginiaAmy and I both got a set of Pottery Barn Teen sheets for our respective beds. I think for patterns, it often helps to look at the teen lines. And yes, we’re Sheet Twins from multiple states away. That’s just how our friendship is. I’m totally comfortable with that. CorinneActually the first printed floral sheets I bought, my best friend recommended.VirginiaYes, I copied her completely.So I’m here for changing away from neutral colors. I think neutrals can be helpful and sometimes you just want a base. I’m just looking at my shirts on the wall over there, and I did kind of pick blue/teal as the one color I brought. So things would kind of go together and I wasn’t jumbling a lot of colors. But if I had just packed like black and white, I would have felt bored all week.CorinneOkay, I’m going to ask the next question.My 10 year old daughter just began ordering Diet Coke without any discussion. Should I bring it up?VirginiaI’m drinking a Diet Coke as I think about your question, just so we’re clear. I’m almost never not drinking a Diet Coke, at least if it’s before 2pm. After that, I have to get careful about caffeine. Anyway.I would bring it up in a very casual, curious, non-concerned way. Just like, “I saw you switched to Diet Coke. Do you like the taste better?” You know, just very, like, “Oh, that’s interesting.” Or even just like, “I didn’t know you were a Diet Coke fan,” and just leave it at that. It could absolutely just be a flavor preference. A lot of us think it tastes better than regular Coke. But if she always drank regular soda and she suddenly switched to Diet Coke and you’re noticing any other warning signs about body concern? I think it’s something to be curious about.What do you think?CorinneYeah, I think I agree. I would probably try to ask something. It seems like it could be a tough thing to ask in a neutral way, because you sound like you might be concerned. VirginiaI think, “oh, I didn’t know you were a Diet Coke fan.” Maybe practicing it in your room for a little bit, till you find a really neutral tone with it.CorinneI think you could be like, “Oh, I tried Diet Coke and I like the regular better.”VirginiaIf that’s your truth, but if it’s not your truth—I can’t pretend.If this is stuff you have at home, you could be out of the Diet Coke one day and see if she’ll still drink regular Coke. And if not, be curious about that. Just to feel it out. I’m here for it totally just being a preference, but I acknowledge that an abrupt shift would be something worthy of some follow up. Okay, this person says,How do you find purposeful and joyful movement that doesn’t cost an arm and a leg?I’ve never enjoyed sports or any exercise really. There was a time when I enjoyed AquaZumba and Rowhouse. But cost is always a factor. Have you seen gym prices lately? I do enjoy a good walk with a podcast or audiobook but I live in Florida where nine months out of the year, it’s gross as hell. So when I do drag myself out for a walk, it feels like exercise and something I have to do and rooted in diet culture instead of something enjoyable.CorinneI have a lot of thoughts about this one. If you’re not enjoying exercise, I would try to pair it with something you do enjoy and do your exercising with a friend or something. Listening to an audiobook is a great tip.As far as affordable stuff goes, I don’t know about Florida, but where I live there are public pools that are pretty cheap and you can get a season pass to them. I know they offer classes like aqua aerobics or whatever. Or you can just go and paddle around or go and walk back and forth in the lanes which is fun, and a nice way to cool down. VirginiaThat does sound nice, especially in Florida. CorinneA lot of YMCAs are not super expensive and have subsidized memberships.VirginiaI’m also aware I don’t know what affordable means to this person. My exercise budget is my Lauren Leavell membership, which I think is $40 or $50 a month for unlimited online workouts that I can do at home. I did have to buy weights, but that was a one time expense. That feels super affordable to me because I do it twice a week, so the per class cost is pretty low. But maybe that’s not in this person’s budget, which I totally respect. CorinneI pay for a gym membership and I pay for coaching. The coaching is definitely not cheap, but the gym membership is around $30 a month. VirginiaSo that’s even cheaper. CorinneAlso, if you’re somewhere hot, I would probably try to find a cheap gym membership and a friend to go with so that it’s more fun and also not super expensive. Also, if that’s an area that you’re from, sometimes your college will let you have a cheaper membership as an alum or some people’s workplaces have gyms or my health insurance will cover certain gym memberships. So those are things to look into.VirginiaI also want to say: If you don’t enjoy sports or exercise, you don’t have to do sports or exercise. You can just decide this isn’t something you do, and maybe your movement is cleaning your house, or walks on the few cool days you have, or gardening, or a dance party in your kitchen with your kids. I was just listening to an NPR thing where they did a study on the health benefits of having people stand up and move around for five minutes every hour, two hours or something. And part of me is like, that would get annoying really fast. I don’t want to have to remember to get up from my desk for five minutes every hour. And part of me is like: If I was in a season of life where formal exercise wasn’t feeling good, maybe that’s something to play with. And maybe you don’t do it every hour, but you do it two or three times a day—and that’s 15 minutes of movement you didn’t have otherwise, and that might feel great. CorinneI just think if you’re like, this is exercise and I have to do it for X, Y, &Z health reason, you’re never going to be consistent about it. If you have a buddy and you like seeing your buddy or you’re like, “This is my time that I watch Real Housewives,” then it can become more of a routine. I think we’re probably both people that have found that exercise does, unfortunately, kind of make you feel good. It’s the worst. I never want to give anyone that advice, but it really does help me.VirginiaIt’s enraging. It’s enraging and I don’t like it. But yes, my grumpy little walks are always a mood booster.CorinneI’m also sure that part of the reason I’m consistent with my training is because I pay a coach, and I don’t want to be paying this person this money and not be using it.VirginiaAssuming you have the budget, that is another way to think about it. Will spending the money make you more again—not do something you don’t you truly don’t like and you’re dragging yourself there and it’s miserable—but will that be an extra motivator to make sure you get value out of that? Sometimes that is a way of reframing the budget, I guess. That doesn’t work for everyone. I have certainly paid for gym memberships that I didn’t use and it was just wasteful. Do you have any fun end of day mocktails or non alcoholic beverage recs? I’m tired of seltzer and I don’t want alcohol every day.CorinneI love this question. Both of us are not huge drinkers and something we have been discussing a lot on this trip is electrolytes, because I love electrolyte drinks. VirginiaThat is not a fun end of the day beverage!CorinneI feel differently. Okay, this is not my only recommendation, but I just want to say I like electrolyte drinks. And I want to say that when I was recently at a very good, popular beloved bar, in a good food city, and I asked for a non-alcoholic drink. And they made me a salty coconut lime drink and it was so delicious and had like a whiff of an electrolyte drink, with the salt. It was sweet and salty. It was so good. VirginiaOkay, people have to understand my first day here, the altitude was getting to me and I was super nauseous. And Corinne was like, “electrolytes electrolytes, electrolytes.” So she gave me one of her little tabs and I put it in my water bottle and I almost vomited in her car immediately. I did drink the entire thing last night and I do feel better. But it was a journey. It was very difficult for me. CorinneAnd I apologize for that. VirginiaNo, you were right. Medicinally, it was useful, but I cannot describe that as fun.CorinneOkay, it’s not a mocktail, but I like coconut water, and I like cucumber lime Gatorade, and sometimes I will drink those. However, here’s my real recommendation. I like to fill up a quart jar with a lot of ice and then I like to fill it halfway with limeade and then fill it the rest of the way with flavored seltzer. VirginiaOkay, that sounds delightful. CorinneIt’s delightful. It’s very refreshing and delicious. VirginiaI’m on board with that.CorinneI like to use peach pear Lacroix.VirginiaOkay, that I’m into. I have two recs.One, I know you’re tired of seltzer. But if you have a Walmart near you, I want you to get the Clear American Mandarin Orange seltzer. It is the most delicious of all seltzers. The reason it is the most delicious is because it is flavored with aspartame, which is possibly my electrolytes. But I am telling you, the number of people who come to my house and have this seltzer and then go and buy it because they’re like, What is this delicious seltzer?It’s a little sweeter than your average seltzer, but it’s still very refreshing. I don’t like a non-refreshing, overly complicated seltzer flavor. I buy so much of it and drink so much of it. That is the most delicious seltzer, so that would be my rec if you’re like I think I’m tired of seltzer but you’ve been drinking Buble or Lacroix or all these like hipster-y fancy brands. You need Walmart Clear American. CorinneI want to recommend a seltzer flavor, too, which is Whole Foods brand has a ginger flavored Seltzer which I think is really good.VirginiaThat sounds like something I would have appreciated drinking yesterday instead of the electrolytes. CorinneWe should have gotten ginger seltzer instead of grapefruit when we went to Whole Foods!VirginiaThen my one other rec for non-alcoholic beverages is I’ve been getting into the TÖST non-alcoholic rosé. It’s elderflower and something. I really enjoy that with some ice cubes and maybe a little seltzer if you want it to be fizzy, but the main flavor will be the non-alcoholic rosé situation. I really like that. And it’s pink and feels fancy. CorinneYeah, I’m really curious about a lot of those non alcoholic spirit things like Ghia. So if anyone really likes those, tell us.Leave a commentVirginiaI have tried a few here and there, but I haven’t found any that I’m like in love with.CorinneSame. Okay,What are your favorite cookies, please?VirginiaI mean, I’m an old school chocolate chip fan. I usually make the recipe on the back of the Ghiradelli semi sweet chocolate chip bag. My kids consider that the only chocolate chip cookie and when I do try to branch out they generally won’t eat them.I also will give a shout out to my cousin Kate who runs a gluten-free bakery in Philadelphia called A Summers Treat and they make a Nutella-stuffed gluten-free chocolate chunk cookie. And look, I am very picky about the gluten-free concept. I am glad that they are making this available for their fellow Celiac folks, obviously. We need that option, but I will be the first one to say, “This needed gluten to taste good.” But these cookies were so insanely delicious. They’re not shipping yet, but if you’re in Philadelphia, get on that cookie situation.CorinneThat sounds really good. I’m also a chocolate chip cookie fan and my recipe of choice is BA’s best chocolate chip cookie. It’s made with brown butter. The thing I like about that is then you don’t have to cream the butter. It’s like kind of faster. You brown part of the butter and then you add in cold butter to cool it down. Then you can just mix it all together. I like to make it and I’ll like bake a few cookies and then I scoop the rest and put them in the fridge or the freezer and bake them as I want them. I brought some of those cookies for us, so don’t forget to eat them. VirginiaOkay, I absolutely will not forget. We will finish the episode first, but we will not forget about that. Alright, last question we’re going to answer today.What do you like most about each other?This is a really sweet one.CorinneThis is a hard one to answer! It’s hard to pick one thing you like about someone. That’s a lot of pressure.VirginiaI assume it’s my rigid beliefs about pants and shoes.CorinneI mean, I don’t even know where to start. Virginia is very smart. Very fun to talk to. Very fun to hang out with. Has a good attitude. I was really impressed with the way you handled your altitude sickness because I think I would have just thrown myself on the ground and gone no further.VirginiaThat’s hilarious. Well, you said you were more of a puker than I am.I will also say Corinne is very smart. Very fun to talk to. She’s a very good listener. What else do I want to say? I mean it is a hard question.CorinneIt’s a hard question.VirginiaShe’s introduced me to breakfast burritos, so that’s pretty important.We’re recording this episode the week I published the piece about 5 Problems I Solved With Shopping, which has generated so much discussion on the newsletter and a lot of both positive and negative feedback. Corinne is really good at nuanced conversations and holding space for multiple perspectives. So as the comments have been coming in and I have been processing and thinking about, like, did I screw this up? Did we make space for this? You’re a very good sounding board. You’ll be supportive and have my back, but also make space for the all the perspectives. CorinneWell, that’s really nice.VirginiaDo you have anything else you want to say about me?CorinneIs there anything we’re surprised by about meeting in real life?VirginiaOh, that’s a good question.CorinneI wish I had an answer but I don’t think I do.VirginiaI’m not surprised, but it is surprising that it feels like we’ve hung out a lot before.CorinneThat’s true. It didn’t feel like an awkward first meeting. VirginiaI mean, I’m not going to share everything we talked about off mic, but I will say—CorinnePlease don’t.VirginiaWe immediately got into the gossip, people. Like 5th date level conversations. We’ve gone down some rabbit holes.CorinneThat’s really true. VirginiaWe did not warm up to talking about stuff. CorinneI think because there’s a lot of things we like about each other, it feels comfortable to talk about some more personal stuff. No one ask us about it. No follow up questions.VirginiaThere’s no drama to be discussed.CorinneNope, nope, nope.Leave a commentButterVirginiaI’m going to talk about the transformative spiritual experience of going to the Georgia O’Keeffe house. I will start that with the caveat that I do know, and Corinne explained further to me, that there’s some discourse around Georgia O’Keeffe being a problematic white lady who tried to claim a lot of New Mexico for herself. So yeah, fully aware of that and acknowledging the complicatedness of it all. But also—the house is magical and beautiful. The views are exquisite. Her aesthetic is so beautiful. And just, the absolute icon energy of this woman who after her husband died, was like, I’m going to spend years building this house in a very rural part of New Mexico where I’ve never lived before and figure out how to live here alone as a woman at a time when that was not particularly done. And then went on to be creating amazing art well into her 80s and 90s, after losing much of her vision. And she was possibly having an affair with her 50 year younger assistant.CorinneNobody knows.VirginiaI mean, maybe particularly for where I am in my life right now as a newly single person and looking at the expanse of that—there just felt like so much possibility. You think about her story and you realize, we place such an emphasis on youth in this culture on checking certain boxes in this culture. So to see someone who was continuing to do new things in her 80s is so inspiring. She’s like, “It’s time for me to learn ceramics.” I hope when I’m in my 80s I am still that invigorated and passionate about not necessarily work, but curious about the world.  CorinneHer house is really special and if you’re out here, I would definitely recommend checking it out.VirginiaI’m going to be thinking about it for a long time. What about you?CorinneMy butter is Jewelry TikTok. I don’t know how this happened, but somehow I have started getting served TikToks about jewelry and I’m not an ASMR person, but for some reason this JewelryTok stuff just scratches some weird itch that I didn’t even know I had. I’m now obsessed with looking at gems and charms and there’s just something so tactile about it. They’re pretty and clickety-clackety and they’re golden. They’re precious. It feels like this weird callback to childhood, playing with tiny things. I don’t know. I hardly wear jewelry at all but I’m trying to get into it now because I’m obsessed with mostly this one account. I’m also not a nails person, but I feel like they always have like really nice nails and hands and stuff. But yeah, I’m finding myself weirdly obsessed with JewelryTok. And I feel like I’m not alone. I think I’m starting to see a lot more like fashion and plus size influencer people showing their—I forget what they call it. Neck mess or charm stack or ring sack or something? Anyways, there’s just something very pleasing about it.VirginiaDo you know it’s possible to have a true phobia of jewelry? That that’s a real thing. A friend of mine has it. CorinneThe phobia is the feeling of it? VirginiaI think the feeling of metal or the texture I don’t know. I’ll try to find this piece that my friend wrote about it years ago. (Post-Recording Update: My friend’s essay has vanished from the Internet but here’s a good explainer and here’s a Reddit thread for more.) So just to put it out there if you’re like, “That sounds horrible.” You are not alone. And that’s a valid reaction. CorinneI do think part of the appeal is like the tactile-ness. So I could see why some people would not like it. VirginiaWell, this was a delight. I wish we could record all our episodes in person.CorinneI know. It would be fun.VirginiaMaybe in another future iteration of Burnt Toast.CorinneShould we try to arrange our lives so that we can record from hot springs spa resorts every week? VirginiaThat seems like a reasonable use of Extra Butter subscriptions? Everyone join Extra Butter so our hot springs budget can really go up!CorinneWe just need to start selling million dollar paintings like like Georgia.VirginiaWell, life is long, Corinne. That’s what we learned.---Today’s Indulgence Gospel was produced and hosted by Corinne and Virginia. Follow us on Instagram: @v_solesmith and @selltradeplus.The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.Our theme music is by Jeff Bailey and Chris Maxwell.Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.Thanks for listening and for supporting independent anti diet journalism.

Stylist Dacy Gillespie joins the podcast to discuss style challenges resembling diets. They explore the struggle between comfort and societal fashion norms, emphasizing personal preferences over societal standards. Discover methods to track clothing choices and emotions to enhance personal style, and strategies for curbing impulsive online shopping.

Welcome to Indulgence Gospel After Dark!It’s time for your April Extra Butter! This month we’re answering a thorny mix of listener questions:Do we ever get tempted to buy back into diet culture?Is weight-loss surgery (and meds) not “doing it the old-fashioned way?”And what should you say when your daughter’s pants don’t fit—and she hates all her other clothes?Both of these letters bring up a lot of complicated issues. CW for discussions of intentional weight loss, anti-fat rhetoric and weight loss surgery.To listen to the full episode and read the full transcript, you’ll need to join Extra Butter, our premium subscription tier.Extra Butter now costs just $99 per year.In addition to these monthly episodes (where we get into juicy stuff like the anti-diet to alt-right pipeline, is Kids Eat In Color anti-diet? and my post-divorce body), you’ll also get a comp to Cult of Perfect and access to our monthly live thread discussions — our next one is next Wednesday at 12pm Eastern!Plus Extra Butter ensures that the Burnt Toast community can always stay an ad- and sponsor-free space—which is crucial for body liberation journalism. Join us here!(Questions? Glitches? Email me all the details)Extra Butter Episode 6 TranscriptThis episode may include affiliate links. Shopping our links is another great way to support Burnt Toast!Are Weight Loss Surgery Survivors Just “New Money Thin?”I listen to your podcasts, read your essays as well as your book Fat Talk and I feel that I am completely done with diet culture and the way I get lured by the promise of thinness to give you a better life and all the layers and complexities that come along with dieting/body image. I love what Sonya Renee Taylor said about just stepping off of the ladder and removing yourself from this type of social hierarchy we place on each other, ourselves and our lives.BUT THEN....I see news reports of Oprah having lost weight and looking skinny and I find myself feeling a panic that 'I need to get back on that ladder (or treadmill).' Do you ever get tempted to buy into all of this again? And if so, what do you do?Also, what is your opinion on weight loss surgery? Just today I met two people who have recently had it. I feel all kinds of things. On one hand, I feel sympathetic towards them. I don't want to judge anyone for how they deal with living in an anti-fat world. I know one of them has had health issues as well as body image issues for the majority of her life. I want to feel happy for her that she **will** (?) find some "peace" now. But then there's the bitchy side of me that thinks it is an easy way out The bitchiest thoughts are using the awful judgements like the concept of 'old money' and 'new money' and seeing her as only a newly thin person (it even hurts to write this out) OR .....if I want to lose weight, I will just do it the old fashioned way not through this magic surgery.  The more loving/mature side of me thinks that the surgery is just another way to give into the type of thing- anti fatness, fat shaming, diet culture- we should all just change.Thoughts?Thank you,Diane. VirginiaI should note I’ve changed names on both of our letter writers today. Corinne, take it away. CorinneWow. I mean, just the light, easy questions. I feel like it’s kind of a two parter. The first question is, do you ever get tempted to buy into this feeling of seeing someone who has recently lost weight and wanting to go there yourself? And the second question is about weight loss surgery and there’s some very interesting stuff in there.VirginiaLet’s do it in two parts. CorinneTo answer the first question: Do I ever get tempted to buy into all of this again? Definitely, yes. I think this is a situation where it’s like, that is the culture that we live in. As long as we live in a culture that is anti-fat, we’re going to feel tempted to not have to deal with anti-fatness.Virginia100 percent. It can be a celebrity losing weight. It can be life feeling stressful and overwhelming and through decades of conditioning you’ve trained yourself to direct negative feelings on your body. When you’re feeling out of control, the temptation is always there to think, what if I could control my body? Then everything will be fine. It can be recognizing the ways the world is not built for your body and wanting that to all feel easier. I mean, there are so many reasons that we get pushed. CorinneFor me, Oprah is not a trigger. The things where I feel this are usually where I’m encountering anti-fat bias, like travel, airplanes, having to go to the doctor. That kind of stuff, where I’m just like, wow, I really wish I did not have to fucking deal with this. VirginiaI’m interested that Oprah triggers this for people just because she’s lost weight again, guys. Why why are we still believing in the Oprah myth? Like, Oprah always regains the weight. She is the classic example of diets don’t work. If you can be a billionaire who has your own island or whatever…CorinneRight. You could pay someone to be taking care of all your food for you.VirginiaI mean, she’s had private chefs for decades. And still! Oprah, I just want you to be able to get off this merry go round. CorinneBut I could see this with some of the plus size influencers losing weight. I could imagine that would bring this up for people. VirginiaOr even people in your own social circle.CorinneDefinitely. VirginiaThis is someone who I consider a peer, and this seems easier and more within their grasp. There’s so much comparison stuff that happens. What do you do when you get the temptation?CorinneI think I just acknowledged that I’m feeling that way. I think for me also, it’s like, that is a miserable feeling. It’s miserable to be like, “I wish I could easily get on an airplane and not have like a panic attack.” But it’s also miserable to be dieting. I would be just as miserable trying to change myself to fit into the airplane seats. So you choose your misery, I guess. VirginiaI mean, I think dieting is a chronic 24/7 misery whereas the airplane thing comes up a few times a year, but it’s not your daily. Were you trying to pursue a career as a flight attendant, that would be more challenging.CorinneAbsolutely not.VirginiaI actually had a fat flight attendant recently, and I wanted to be like, I see you!CorinneThat’s cool. I can’t even. Because also they wear uniforms. How do you deal with that?VirginiaI mean she was a small fat, but still. In terms of what you often see of flight attendants. That is a profession with a lot of thin ideals. It was refreshing to see. I also lie down and wait for the feelings to go away and think about what I can do to make myself feel cared for. Like, do you need a season of stretchy pants? Time with a friend? You’ve talked before about feeling good about your body in a more sensory way instead of just aesthetic. For me, I always like looking underneath and being like, oh right, I’m just spiraling out and putting it on my body, but actually it’s about this other stuff. CorinneHow can you make your environment more comfortable for yourself?VirginiaYeah. Like, we can’t fix the airplane seats. We’re working on it but we haven’t gotten that done. But how can your own physical environment including clothes you put on your body feel more supportive and built for your body? That seems important. CorinneAll right. And what is your opinion on weight loss surgery?VirginiaOh, man. Okay. This is where Diane takes a little bit of a turn. We were with you, Diane. We understand the trigger of Oprah and we’re with you on that part of the journey.But there is some real anti-fatness in the phrasing of the second half of the question. Which she’s owning, because she’s saying “this is a bitchy thought.” But we need to name pretty clearly what’s happening here. I think where I’m immediately stuck is framing weight loss surgery as an easy way out.CorinneThat is a fascinating way of thinking about it! VirginiaI mean, it’s major surgery. They remove part of an organ.CorinneI have such a medical industrial complex phobia, that it’s blowing my mind that anyone would think of that as the easy way out.VirginiaNot at all. I mean, the recovery is miserable. It’s weeks of living on broth and then you work your way up to jello. CorinneThere is also just such a high risk of complication.VirginiaAnd you’re living the rest of your life managing nutrition in a really specific way because you’re at high risk for nutritional deficiencies because it’s hard for your body to take in enough food. This is a lifetime of management. This is not just, you get the surgery done, you lose weight and then you eat cheeseburgers whenever you want. The whole rest of your life is organized around this, in a way that’s pretty tough. There is a lot of research showing that folks who have weight loss surgery are at increased risk for depression and suicidal ideation afterwards. And an increased risk of substance abuse disorder, even if they never previously had a problem with alcohol or drugs. There’s just a lot of fallout with this experience. It’s not an easy way out of anything.CorinneAnd anyone who is having weight loss surgery has basically succumbed to the pressure and anti-fat bias that you’re feeling when you see Oprah. Let’s have some empathy. It’s definitely not easy.VirginiaAnd they may be doing it because it’s the only way they can access other medical care they need. This is what I reported for the New York Times Magazine several years ago about infertility clinics having BMI cut-offs. Often someone’s only option, in order to access fertility treatment, is to first go through weight loss surgery, even though there is research showing that it can increase your risks for prenatal complications.That’s just one example. There are doctors who won’t do your knee replacement unless you do this first. So WLS can be a necessary strategy for playing the game in order to get the healthcare you deserve. CorinneTotally. VirginiaMy overall opinion on weight loss surgery is, I think we are pushing it on people without giving them enough options for informed consent. We could do a lot more to remove systemic anti-fatness and the barriers they face without asking people to put their bodies through this. I have zero judgment for anyone who chooses to do it because I haven’t been in that place.CorinneThere was also just that New York Times article about hospitals churning through weight loss surgeries.VirginiaAnd pushing them on prisoners and low income folks. Not informing people of risks and not doing their due diligence. They performed it on a pregnant women by accident.CorinneSo scary. I’m also interested in this “old money/new money” thing.VirginiaYes, I want to talk about this metaphor. This is a really interesting framing. Seeing her as only a newly thin person. Like, wow, fat people just can’t ever win.CorinneIt’s really interesting. VirginiaThis person did everything that this culture asked of them and they’re still getting written off. That’s the “easy way out” thing. It’s like, oh, you are still a lazy fat person even though now you’re thin. Because you didn’t do it the old fashioned way.And it also implies that the only people who should benefit from thin privilege are old money—my Connecticut WASPs. If you don’t have a yacht club membership, you need not apply for the benefits of thin privilege.But I think Diane is saying the quiet part out loud. She’s articulating something very real in how we bestow thin privilege and our attitudes towards fat folks who pursue weight loss. There’s throwing them a parade and all this positive affirmation if your body changes and there is this hidden judgment of somehow you were always wrong, and you can’t undo what was always wrong about you. It’s wild.CorinneAnd what this is kind of not saying is: If you’re thinking of these people as newly thin, then how are you actually thinking about people who are still fat? You’re alluding to the fact that you have very different judgments of fat people and thin people in your life, which sucks.VirginiaI think people who are still fat have no money in this matter, right? They’re not old money. They’re not new money. They’re the working poor.CorinneAnd yeah, maybe you could do a little thinking about that.VirginiaSo there’s a lot there, Diane. Even in wrapping up with “the more loving mature side of me thinks the surgery is just another way to give in to anti-fatness and we should all change that.”Even that — there’s a real lack of empathy for why folks end up on that path. And if you’ve been on that path, I don’t think you’re giving in. I think you’re adopting a survival strategy. It feels like she has been triggered by Oprah. She’s being triggered by these new money thin friends who had their weight loss surgery. And she’s trying to figure out how to not want to do the same thing. But in her effort to not fall back down the diet culture rabbit hole, she’s actually using anti-fatness to justify her decision not to pursue this surgery or not to go back to dieting. Which is a fascinating twisting of the whole thing. That honestly makes my brain hurt. It’s like she’s basically saying, “I’m going to judge people for getting weight loss surgery. Because if I can think that’s a trashy decision, then I won’t be as tempted to do it. So I’m still over here standing up against the anti-fatness,” —without recognizing that she’s actually being incredibly anti-fat to make those judgments.We need to have empathy for everybody who is being bombarded with anti-fatness. We need to stay focused on the industries and the systems that perpetuate that and we need to look at our own biases, Diane. CorinneDo a little bit of your own work. VirginiaOkay, that was exhausting.What Should I Say to My Tween Who Hates Her Jeans?I'm wondering if you have any suggestions/recommendations for strategies on how a dad can address body-image concerns with their tween daughter.Some backstory: My wife and I both struggle with our weight and are very careful to differentiate between weight and health.My 12-year-old daughter had an epic anxiety attack this morning because her jeans didn't fit her. She first came downstairs wearing a pair that was too big and she kept having to hike up. My wife and I asked her to change into something that fit.Five minutes before we walked out the door to the bus, she stormed back downstairs, crying and angry in a different pair of jeans, saying "I'm too fat for these jeans."Ugh.I suspect there are a variety of things happening here. She's in middle school, which is a hell unlike any other. She's been formally diagnosed with anxiety and takes anti-anxiety meds, but she's still susceptible to anxiety attacks when stressed. She's already 5'6" tall and continually growing, so it's unsurprising her jeans didn't fit. She swims 4 days a week, so she's all muscle.Anywho, none of that helps in the moment. We eventually got her calmed down and off to school. I'm mainly wondering how to best support her as she begins to feel the full weight of society's unrealistic expectations for women's weight and body size.Thanks,KevinVirginiaOh, this letter has my heart.CorinneMe too, yeah.VirginiaI mean, I appreciate that a dad wrote this. I’m calling him Kevin for the purposes of our conversation. I appreciate that Kevin wants to support her. I think his heart is in the right place. Even if there was some sloppy execution in the moment. If I’m going to go back over what happened that morning, I think the first mistake was telling her to change out of the pants that were too big. I think 12 is too old for parents to make any real directives like that. I say this as a mother of children who, at various points younger than 12, have worn just tights to school as pants. And I have to sit on myself because I think, but they’re tights and we put a skirt over that. And my six-year-old was like, “but they’re silver and sparkly.” And of course, I’m thinking, is someone going to make fun of you at school? Is the teacher going to be like, why are you just wearing tights? Did your mother forget to put on a skirt today? How did your parents let you out of the house like this? And I said nothing. Because body autonomy, right? They get to decide what goes on their bodies. That is more important than whether they’re she’s having to hike up jeans or whether my six year old wears a skirt over tights. If those were the pants she put on that she felt more comfortable in, you should not have messed with that. It’s okay that they were too big. You could say, in a calmer moment, “Hey, I’m wondering if you feel like there are any holes in your wardrobe. Do we need to go shopping for anything?”This is something I’ll do when I notice my kids are wearing pants that are suddenly too short or seem too tight or whatever. I’ll say, is there anything you need? And they’ll be like, oh, I don’t have any pants that fit. And I’ll be like, great. Let’s get new pants. But you don’t, in the moment when this kid is getting dressed and on the way to school and anxiety is high, rush in with a bunch of judgment about you can’t wear these pants to school. Especially not at twelve. Twelve is too old for you to decide when she can wear to school. CorinneI mean, this letter is giving me flashbacks. VirginiaIt’s tough. Another tip I really love which comes from Zoë Bisbing, who is my body positive home on Instagram, is to put a basket in your kid’s closet—I have the same basket in my closet—and say, “Hey, you’re growing pretty fast right now, if anything’s not working for you doesn’t feel good on your body, just put it in this basket to donate.” And when the basket is full, I’ll donate it and get you new stuff.CorinneThat’s such a good tip.VirginiaIt really normalizes that bodies change. We do not expect your clothes to fit you forever, especially at twelve.CorinneYou could peek at it and be like, okay, we might be needing to buy some new clothes.VirginiaI noticed there are two pairs of jeans in the basket. Do we need to get new jeans? And it’s a totally neutral way to do it. What do you think about her saying “I’m too fat for these jeans?”CorinneWell, where did she hear that? Probably from someone.VirginiaKevin says, “My wife and I both struggle with our weight.” That framing tells me that there’s probably been some dieting and negative body talk in the house at some point. CorinneTotally. VirginiaBut I appreciate that now they’re being careful to differentiate between weight and health. It feels like kind of a work in progress and that’s totally valid. CorinneIt also feels like something that you probably can’t really address in the moment. VirginiaNo, no, no. If a twelve year old is having a meltdown, you don’t come in and be like, “fat’s not a bad word.” But again, in the follow up later on, I would say, tell me about how you’re using the word fat. Or if you say like, I know I used to use fat in a really negative way and I’ve been reading and learning and I don’t think we should do that anymore. There’s nothing wrong with being fat. It’s a great way to have a body. Those jeans didn’t fit you, like, the problem is the jeans not your body.CorinneI’m sort of like, this happened and now what? What do the parents do now?VirginiaI think getting her pants that fit comfortably is a big piece of that. I mean, assuming of course that they have the budget to handle replacing clothes.I do think some kind of follow up conversation is warranted. And you want to validate that it is super frustrating and stressful to realize your jeans don’t fit right when you need to be getting out the door for school. We have all had that, right? When you think you’re wearing the thing and then it doesn’t fit and I don’t know what to wear instead. Like, that is super frustrating. And it is not your body’s fault. Bodies change. This is normal, we want you growing. And sometimes that means the jeans don’t fit. And that’s a big bummer. So you can validate that feeling without putting the blame on her body. And then big picture, how best to support her as she begins to feel the full weight of unrealistic expectations, I think it’s coming back to that again and again. Like, it sucks. These messages suck. We can name how they suck without blaming your body. Kevin has one other thing that I glitched on here, where he made a point of telling us that she swims four days a week and is all muscle. Kevin, that’s not relevant. We don’t need to know that. If she was a fat twelve year old she would still deserve pants. And so what we don’t want to do is say, “you’re not fat, you’re beautiful. You’re not fat, you’re a swimmer. You’re not fat, you’re all muscle.” We don’t want to put fatness in opposition to any of that.CorinneThere’s maybe a touch of that with the separating weight and health thing, too. Like, oh, you can be big and still be healthy. Just noting that maybe your kid might be feeling some of this pressure.VirginiaThat bodies can only change in certain ways. And if she feels like her body is changing in the wrong way that’s going to trigger things. She’s also got anxiety. She’s going to be quick to spiral on some stuff. But you can help. You can help manage some of those trigger points.CorinneRight. And as you said, this is maybe at an age where it’s too old to be saying what she is wearing.VirginiaI mean, again, if I send my six year old to school in tights as pants… Other than blatant weather, like a swimsuit in January is probably the only line I would draw. You are not in that child’s body and you don’t know what feels good on her body. And I think the power of self expression is really important.And I also think there’s like natural consequences, right? Like, when one of my kids went through a phase of wanting to just in the heat of summer wear sweatshirts and sweatpants. And she got over that. She didn’t need me requiring shorts, you know? I mean, do I wish one of my kids would not wear her winter coat 24/7 including in the house, including trying to sleep in it? Yes. Yes, I find that weirdly irritating.CorinneI would also find that really irritating. VirginiaTake off your coat. You live here. Put it away. And she knows I wish she would take off the coat. But it’s not a mountain I die on very often because she’s cozy. She doesn’t feel like taking it off. I don’t know.CorinneYeah, it is cozy. I get that. What would you say if one of your kids was trying to wear a swimsuit in January? Like, how do you have that conversation?VirginiaWell, our school will send a note around for cold weather and be like, we still do outdoor recess so please send your child in a coat and long sleeves and whatever. So I think then I would say like, you have outdoor recess today and the school requires that you be warmly dressed for outdoor weather. CorinneBlame the school.VirginiaWhen you come home after school if you want to wear a swimsuit the rest of the day, great. If you want to wear a swimsuit under your clothes. It’ll make going to the bathroom hard. I will sometimes offer practical feedback like I think it’s going to be cold today. You might want another layer.CorinneHave either of your kids gotten into like midriff baring stuff?VirginiaNo, my kids do not like midriff baring stuff. I accidentally bought tankinis—Hanna Andersson really did me dirty and I thought they were going to be be full tankinis and they were cropped. And they were both like no thank you. And then my six year old shamed me, because she said, “I don’t like to wear swimsuits that show my tummy. That’s what you do.” And I was like “I do and I look amazing.” And she’s like, “It makes me uncomfortable.”CorinneOh, that’s really funny. Oh my gosh. VirginiaSo I don’t know where my little Puritans came from. They’re not down with showing your tummy in a swimsuit. Currently. That could all change. Now by twelve, often parents are navigating kids wanting to dress in ways that are more sexually provocative and I am not navigating that as a parent yet. But I did do a lot of research on that for the book and I learned that we are very quick to police certain girls for doing that. And certain girls, we don’t police. We don’t tend to police thin white girls for showing midrift or for showing cleavage. We do police bigger bodied girls and Black girls especially for clothes that feel small or look smaller and look sexy or whatever. And that is not the problem of any of those children’s bodies. That is because adults have a lot of anti-Black racism and anti-fatness that they need to work their own shit out. I really have no patience with the idea that functional adults cannot remember that somebody is twelve or ten, just because they have visible breasts. That is uninteresting to me as an argument. You can still remember that this is a child. Some children have breasts. You should treat them like you would treat any other child. Their body belongs to them and it is not your business. So if my kids go through a phase of wanting to dress like that, I don’t plan to crack down on it in that way. I think we will have conversations about the discourse around that. Like, I would talk to them about these dress code differences and discrimination and let them make their own informed decisions.But it’s a tricky one. You worry that your child will be vulnerable if they go out with exposed midrift or exposed cleavage. And again, the kid’s body is never the problem. The problem is the culture where we think it’s okay to sexualize kids. That’s the problem. The culture where we’re terrified of teenage girls having sexuality. We want to police and control that.CorinneI’m also just thinking about this letter coming from a dad. Are these conversations that you have navigated with a dad?VirginiaI mean, I give Kevin credit for being sensitive to this. I do think dads need to be really aware that negative comments about clothing from them or bodies from them will only be interpreted as a reason for shame from their kids from their daughters. I do think you have to be really aware of those gender dynamics, Kevin. A man policing, a 12 year old girl’s body is never going to be okay. I think it would be great if dads wanted to do more of the mental labor of like, “Oh, your jeans are too small. Let’s go shopping for pants.” I think it’d be great to normalize that dads can also parent their daughters through teenagehood in body positive and accepting ways. But I think you have to really keep in mind the power dynamics. What are you thinking?CorinneI never had conversations like that with my dad. So I have no idea what it would feel like. I feel like I probably more often felt embarrassed of stuff that my dad was wearing. He did like ill-fitting jeans. I will say that.VirginiaHis body, his choice, Corinne.CorinneI’m curious if my parents ever had those conversations. I really have no idea. VirginiaVirginiaI feel like we’ve gotten a little off topic but it is all part of a piece here. I think what we’re really saying is as you’re navigating tweens and teens through these fraught body image moments, it’s really important to just keep coming back to how do we center her body autonomy. And if it’s her wearing pants she has to hike up a few times a day, that feels fair. That feels like not a really big problem versus her having to wear pants that feel too small and uncomfortable on her body and she’s doing that for you so you feel more comfortable with her body. That’s where we went wrong.CorinneI think you’re right. I sometimes have to hike my pants up.VirginiaIt is a function of jeans. And I have many thousands of words on how jeans are designed to fit and they are not designed to not need hiking up. I do appreciate Kevin reaching out and I feel optimistic he can get this train back on the track. CorinneOh my God. Yeah, this one definitely gave me like hardcore sensory flashbacks to low rise jeans.VirginiaI mean, we came of age and time of trauma for jeans. This girl doesn’t know how good she has it with high rise being available.ButterVirginiaOkay, we are going to have a Team Butter. Corinne and I both want to talk about Evelyn and Bobbie bras. I also want to talk about their underwear. CorinneOn the last Indulgence Gospel, Jenny from Cashmerette recommended Evelyn and Bobbie bras and we were both super excited about it because both of us had just ordered Evelyn and Bobbie bras, and now we have both received them. And we’re going to tell you how we feel about them. VirginiaI feel good.CorinneI’m actually wearing mine right now. I got the Defy bra, which is like, it’s very similar to the True and Co bra, but it feels much more substantial. It feels a little more engineered. When I first got it, I was like eh, I don’t know.VirginiaYou thought it was too big at first. CorinneI thought that it wasn’t quite the right size. And I will say, I have since gotten my period. So maybe it’s just a fluctuation thing. I think also, what I’ve been wearing lately are these longline bralettes that go further down. So I think it feels weird that it actually hits under my boobs. But I am finding it to be like a good combo of comfortable, but also shaping. I feel like it looks good under clothes and it doesn’t just look like uniboob.VirginiaI love the Girlfriend Collective sports bras I’ve talked about before. If you wear them under a sweater it’s fine. But if you’re wearing a tank top or something kind of form fitting, you just feel like all one piece basically.CorinneYeah. I feel like I’ve basically just embraced like, it’s fine, who cares? I don’t care. But also then I was like, oh, this is kind of interesting. VirginiaSo I returned the Defy bra. I can’t remember why I wasn’t crazy about that. But I have the Evelyn bra and the Beyond bra. I felt like it gave a slightly rounder shape if that makes sense and Defy felt a little more like it was trying to hoist them up. I don’t know, I was just more in the mood for Evelyn, I guess. But I like them both. The Beyond is, the straps are a little bit thinner. There is still a thick strap, but it feels a little easier to wear under something low cut or something strappy. It’s a little bit more subtle. I really liked Evelyn, I have it in two colors. And I have the Beyond in one color. But I could see myself expanding the collection. I will say I initially used their size chart, but I didn’t measure myself because I was lazy. I’m sorry. I know. We’re supposed to measure ourselves. But one of my kids walked off with the good measuring tape and it couldn’t find it. So I didn’t measure myself. I just looked at the size of my bra that I was wearing and went off that, forgetting that that bra has been feeling too tight for a while. So at first it told me to get the large and I was like that doesn’t seem right. And that was definitely a little too small. Then I upgraded to the extra large and I’m almost tempted to try the 2XL. The band is rolling on me a bit.CorinneI don’t think that I ever don’t have band rolling, at least in the front. It’s the way it is, like it just folds because like my boobs touch my belly. VirginiaYeah, that’s where I’m like, would sizing up really help this? Is this just a function of if you go out instead of going in?CorinneDoes yours roll in the back? I feel like if it rolls in the back then it’s too small. I always unroll it and pull it down over like the top of my belly. I’m trying to stop doing that.VirginiaWe are classy ladies. CorinneI’m curious about the Beyond bra one because that one has clasps in the back.VirginiaYeah, it has a regular bra closure so it’s also a little easier to get into. Did you have to did you like fight your way in at first?CorinneNo, I feel like I’m maybe between, I think I ordered the 3XL and I think I may be like between 2x and 3x. VirginiaOkay. So you could just get it in. Did you see the tip to step into it. CorinneOh, shit. Wow. VirginiaAnd at first I was like, how will that work? But it’s actually much better. If I tried to put the Evelyn bra over my head, it’s like flashbacks to eighth grade sports bra.CorinneOh my god. That’s funny.VirginiaBut you can step in and pull up. CorinneOh, that’s so crazy because I feel like that part of my body is so much bigger, so much wider.VirginiaI know. I don’t understand why it works better, but it’s way less like panic inducing. I don’t feel trapped. So that is one tip. If you’re trying them on, and you feel like it’s hard to get on, try stepping into it. And the other thing is it said after three wearings, it does stretch quite a bit. So if it feels a smidge tight at first, that’s actually good because it will stretch.But yeah, the Beyond bra also has adjustable straps, which I thought seemed helpful. So I think with the adjustable straps and the hook and eye closure with the band, you can get a little more of a custom fit. The Evelyn and the Defy are just all one piece bras. They are comfy. I wore them on vacation where it was hot and they were still comfortable. CorinneAnd I just want to say about the sizing, it’s probably obvious if you’re listening to this and you know what we look like, but me being between a 2x and 3x, that’s not my normal size in shirts. These are very generous sizing and will probably fit you if you’re like, I don’t know, a 4x or 5x. VirginiaI’m in the XL. I would normally be on the 1x or the 2x.CorinneThe other thing I was going to say is I had heard about Evelyn Bobbie and looked at them and been like, this is exactly the same as True and Co. I don’t need to try this. And it’s really different. So if you’ve also looked and been like, this looks exactly like something I have, you should still maybe try it.VirginiaIt’s a much thicker fabric with a little bit of compression. It’s not like a minimizer but the compression supports you. More support. The True and Co bras I really wear to sleep in or around the house, but I don’t wear them if I’m going to be walking any distance. There will not be support. They’re so comfy, but they’re not like go places bras. Whereas this feels like as much support as an underwire bra without any of that nonsense. And I did also get their underwear because I am a sucker for making it a set. Marketing is very effective on me. And I do really like their underwear. It has the same problem that a lot of plus size underwear has, where the leg hole is a little too big. But they do not roll down at the waist which is very hard to find. So I am sacrificing, like the leg hole is a little roomier than I need, but they’re very thin and lightweight. Whereas some of the other plus size underwear we like—like I do have a new pair of Thunderpants which I really enjoy, or Universal Standard underwear—is like a thicker, t-shirt material. Which is great for under jeans or something, but in the summer under shorts or white pants you want something a little less bulky. I was into the underwear.CorinneAre they high waisted enough?VirginiaYeah, I guess they are. I have the retro bikini and the girl short.CorinneCool. I looked at the underwear and was like, looks like not for me, but maybe I’ll reconsider. VirginiaThis is all very unsponsored, although we’ll probably use affiliate links if we have them. But we spent our own money on these things. We’re testing them in real time for you. I mean, I can’t tell you how many Instagram ads I get fed for the underwire free bra of your dreams. And then I look and it’s like, we totally do big boobs and they go up to a double D.CorinneThank goodness for Jenny recommending it because otherwise I totally would have dismissed it. VirginiaAll right. Another excellent Extra Butter episode! Thank you guys for listening.---The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by me, Virginia Sole-Smith. You can follow me on Instagram or Twitter.Burnt Toast transcripts and essays are edited and formatted by Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, an Instagram account where you can buy and sell plus size clothing.The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.Our theme music is by Jeff Bailey and Chris Maxwell.Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.Thanks for listening and for supporting independent anti diet journalism. I’ll talk to you soon.

Mary Mahoney, co-host of Dolls of Our Lives podcast, talks about nostalgic memories with American Girl dolls, sibling dynamics, and marketing strategies for inclusivity. Discussions include body image books, emotional eating advice, and personal anecdotes about childhood experiences and podcast promotion.

You’re listening to Burnt Toast!We are Virginia Sole-Smith and Corinne Fay, and it’s time for your March Indulgence Gospel.We’re doing an old-fashioned listener question episode because those are really everyone’s favorite (at least they are our favorite!). So if you’ve ever wondered:How to talk to a kid who only cares about being beautiful?Whether it’s okay to feed your children Paleo Waffles?Is wanting to lose weight always because of the patriarchy?How Virginia really feels about single mom travel?ARE THERE ANY COMFORTABLE JEANS?We got you! (Yes, really on the jeans!!!)This is a paywalled episode. That means to hear the whole thing you’ll need to be a paid Burnt Toast subscriber. Subscriptions are $5 per month or $50 for the year. Or you can join Extra Butter for just $99 for the year—which includes a monthly live chat and even more Indulgence Gospel, plus a comp subscription to Cult of Perfect.This transcript contains affiliate links. Shopping our links is another great way to support Burnt Toast!Episode 127 TranscriptCorinneWell, what’s new with pants?VirginiaWell, I’m wearing new pants. I’m wearing them right now! I bought the Universal Standard jeans that you instructed me to buy, so I needed to come back and report to the group because everyone needs closure on that journey. So, I ended up keeping the Etta High Rise Straight Leg Jeans. And then I went a little rogue—this was not when you told me to buy, but it was a similar style. It’s the Elliot Mid Rise Tuxedo Stripe Jeans. It’s called “tuxedo” because there’s a cute selvedge edge on the side of the jeans, like a tuxedo stripe on tuxedo pants. I’m currently wearing those and I’ve been wearing them both. They are so comfy.These are comfortable jeans. The unicorn does exist. Corinne did not lie to us. But it’s a big adjustment for me. Aesthetically, I’m still I’m still figuring it out. CorinneYou sent me a photo of you wearing the tuxedo ones and they looked great! I was tempted to buy them right on the spot.VirginiaYou already have all the Universal Standard jeans, but the little stripe is fun. The thing I will say if you are, like me, coming from skinny jeans land, if you are an older millennial who has been in your skinny jeans for 15 years, however long it has been: This is a mental shift we have to make to the idea that our calves are no longer encased in denim. They describe this as a straight leg, but I feel like I’m basically wearing bell bottoms. It feels like so much fabric.  I’m willing to say that because of coming from skinny jeans land, I’m not sure I’m having an accurate assessment. I’m saying because of my previous context, my calves feel free.CorinneIt does feel really different. VirginiaI enjoy it. But they’re a little swishy?CorinneI’ve been thinking that I might need a wider leg pair.VirginiaYou just keep raising the bar. My question with a wider leg is—we’ve talked about this. I can’t go back to the 90s, and my jeans dragging in the mud. CorinneYeah, I feel like they have to be like cropped enough that they’re not dragging on the ground. VirginiaAh yes. This is why you need the ankle length ones so your shoes aren’t stepping on your pant leg.CorinneThe slush would crawl up the legs of your pants. VirginiaYou can see why skinny jeans felt like the answer for a long time. I will confess I did also keep a pair of Universalist Standard skinny jeans as emotional support pants.CorinneThat’s fair.VirginiaBut I haven’t even worn them yet! I forgot they were even in my closet. It’s just like, if I need a formal wear jean, I need a skinny jean. I understand jeans aren’t supposed to be formal wear.CorinneI’ve been watching Real Housewives of New York because Jenna Lyons is on the most recent season, a gay icon. And she wears jeans all the time in formal wear settings.VirginiaBut she’s Jenna Lyons. I think the rules are different.CorinneJust as an example of jeans as formal wear. VirginiaImportant trailblazing is being done. CorinneYes. I know every time we talk about straight leg or wide leg jeans, you’re like, “but what shoes do I wear?” So what shoes have you been wearing?VirginiaI’m still figuring that out. I really liked them with my Veja sneakers. So do I need more Veja sneakers? Is this a gateway drug? CorinneYes.VirginiaThey don’t work with my Nisolo boots. I have my Nisolo chelsea boots I love but they are just too little of a shoe. It makes me realize the skinny jean tyranny goes all the way down to your feet.So for now I’m doing Vejas. And I do have these Target clog boots that have a chunky sole and I need to try that out. That might be kind of fun? I feel like a clog could work too as we get into spring. I’m still figuring it out, but I like them. I’m wearing them today with a Universal Standard turtleneck and I’ve also liked them with a big oversized sweater. I can even do the millennial tuck if I want because there’s room for my shirt in my pants. CorinneAs it should be. Virginia These are basically like pajama pants in denim. CorinneBecause they fit right. VirginiaBut again, if you’ve come from skinny jeans, you’re going to think they’re too big.Oh, and I did also have to size down in the Ettas as like you said. I did not need to size down in the tuxedo pants. So I definitely recommend people order a couple of sizes because the roominess of them and they do stretch a little bit as you wear them. By the second or third wear they’re starting to slide down my hips a little bit. That’s alright. The dryer is there for you.CorinneYes. I got the 100 percent cotton ones and I ordered those in two sizes. When I first tried them on, I thought I was going to keep the smaller pair. Then I ended up keeping the bigger ones and I just wore them out for the first time. When I was driving home after wearing them, I was like, wow I need to unbutton these. This is not comfortable. So, verdict is still out on those.VirginiaAll right.  Well, our first question is pants adjacent as well.This listener would like to know if we have suggestions for brands that do plus size tall pants, because all tall sizes seem to stop at 20.This is a perennial fat fashion challenge, which is that brands are under the illusion that fat people are only between the heights of 5’4” and 5’7”. We are never shorter and we are never taller, CorinneLike all people, we come in all the heights.I mean, neither of us are tall so this isn’t a situation where I have a lot of personal experience, but I do know some stuff from running SellTradePlus. Both Torrid and Lane Bryant have tall sections or long inseam pants. So those definitely exist. I think Old Navy does stop at 20 for tall, but they used to go to 30. So you can search Poshmark or eBay for vintage tall Old Navy. Universal Standard also has some long inseams—I think they go up to 32” (also 33” and 34” only in certain styles.) If you go to Target on a web browser, like an actual computer, you can filter by inseam and size. So you should be able to see exactly what they have in your size and inseam.VirginiaThat is very helpful and check back often because Target sells out all the time, but restocks all the time.CorinneThen for like smaller brand stuff, Big Bud Press, their regular stuff runs pretty tall, like a lot of it is too long for me. Then they also have some styles in long inseams, but you just kind of have to search through. I don’t think there’s a good way of filtering for it and they don’t have like a tall section. I also know that Alder Apparel, their Open Air pants have in a longer inseam option. And Fashion Brand Company makes a jean that I have not tried but also has a long or tall inseam and I think goes up to like a 4x. And I have no idea how those fit, but I would be curious to try.VirginiaThis is some good intel. We will also link to the recent fat fashion concierge because there was a discussion specifically about tall overalls, but people chimed in with some other stuff. So we will link to that. That’s always a good place to post these specific fashion requests.CorinneNiche requests.VirginiaAll right. I will read the next question, because I think you will have more insights on this one. This person says:Grandpa says fatphobic stuff. We talk about it, but with early dementia, he truly forgets. Any ideas?CorinneOkay, so my dad, who died in 2020, had dementia so I can really relate to this. My grandmother also had dementia and I do remember her telling me I really shouldn’t be wearing horizontal stripes. VirginiaOh, Grandma. CorinneThis one is tough because there’s actually not really anything you can do. You’re not going to be able to change this person’s behavior. Like, they’re losing brain cells. They’re losing executive function. And they’re not going to change their behavior. So I think what you should focus on is doing whatever you need to do to take care of yourself and the other people around you that it could be affecting.If that means that when he says stuff, you want to respond to it, I think you can. But I would also say if it’s exhausting to keep trying to correct him or have a conversation with this person about fatphobia, I think it’s also fine to ignore it. And it’s fine for you to be like, I need to remove myself for a little bit. It’s basically just about what kind of stuff can you do to support yourself? And if there is anyone else that it could be affecting.VirginiaI was wondering if maybe this person is anxious about going out in public and comments being made when other folks wouldn’t understand the context.CorinneThat is the trickiest situation. Like when you’re like, in a restaurant is he making comments to the servers or something. It’s a test of your own like stuff really. Can you tolerate that or not? And if you can’t, then don’t put yourself in the situation if you can help it!VirginiaI like the idea of just centering, what do you need? And giving yourself a lot of grace. This sounds really challenging. You don’t need to be getting an A+ on fat activism while visiting your grandpa. Your relationship, and having a good time with him while you can—all of that matters a lot more. I don’t have as much direct experience with that as Corinne, but my Grandma Betty had dementia before she died. It’s just so hard to see someone you love so much slipping away. I think if I had been overly focused in the times we had together with trying to navigate this other issue that’s not really about your relationship… Have a good time with them while you can.CorinneI think also reminding yourself they’re not doing it to piss you off, even though it might feel that way. They probably don’t have a lot of control over it. VirginiaYeah, just getting whatever support you need in place. Maybe it’s a friend you’re going to text after you see him and just download all the feelings about whatever things he says that are problematic or triggering. Just giving you an outlet, setting that up ahead of time so you have that support. CorinneThat’s good advice. Okay, let me read the next one. Is wanting to lose weight always because of the patriarchy, and/or diet culture, and/or disordered eating?VirginiaI mean, it doesn’t always only come from those things. But I think those things are always in play. CorinneI think it’s sort of like, how could those things not be in play? Because that’s the water we’re swimming in. VirginiaThis is a bias we’ve all internalized because of growing up in a fatphobic culture and patriarchy. You can’t untangle your concerns about your health, your concerns about having access to clothing, your concerns about fitting into public spaces. You can’t untangle all of that from the bias that is making all of that so difficult. It’s always both. When we try to make it only about this other thing, that’s when we’re doing a real disservice to fat folks in general. And to the concept of fat activism. It’s okay to say, “I have this desire to lose weight, this is what’s right for me because of X,Y, and Z reasons,” and pursue that, if that’s what you really think makes sense for you. But do that with the knowledge that you are using this as a survival strategy in an anti-fat patriarchal culture that’s making it so difficult for your body to be bigger.CorinneRight. You can’t make a decision to lose weight or not lose weight in a vacuum, just because of the time and place we exist. These things are always going to be part of any decision we make.VirginiaWe will link to what remains, other than my divorce essay, the most popular piece on Burnt Toast—The “what if I just don’t want to be fat?” question. It’s the question we all have. It’s so relatable. And yeah, it’s so steeped in bias. We have to name that as well. CorinneI’m going to read the next one because it’s about children.My three-year-old values beauty above everything else. How do I help her not judge herself and others based on appearance?VirginiaI want to come at this from a few different places.First: Where is she getting this message that beauty is so important? Is it something you’re modeling? Is it something other adults in her life are modeling? Is it just the fact that you have a little girl and as the parent of two girls, I know every time I go into public with them, somebody tells them they’re beautiful. Because they are girls who currently meet various beauty standards, and so their entire lives, every waitress in a diner, every nurse in a doctor’s office, every dental technician, the people that they see, will say, “What a pretty shirt. Oh, you look so pretty today. Oh, I love your hair.” And this is the onslaught of messaging girls get.And yes, I always push back and say, “And she’s very smart!” or just switch the conversation and change tactics. I have a whole set of strategies for how I navigate those comments. I know that our family’s values matter more, but of course, those comments are still landing. So I think it’s good to think through where is she getting this?Next, consider how much validation is she getting for caring so much about this? Like, if she is in a princess costume, is she getting more validation than when she’s like, in a T-shirt and shorts? Is that something you can look at in terms of how you and your immediate family interact with her?All of which is to say, it’s also okay that she thinks being beautiful is important. And if you come at it like, we’re going to shut this down, you’re only going to make it way worse. You’re only going to dig her in way deeper on this.CorinneHow can you reframe what is beautiful for a three-year-old? Can you be sure that your three-year-old knows that you think fat people are beautiful? Or people that are outside of conventional beauty standards?VirginiaGender nonconforming folks? CorinneAlso, there are so many things that we think are beautiful that aren’t people or bodies! Like moss or trees.Virginia“I know you love Barbie, but have you considered moss?”CorinneYeah, but also have you? I don’t know.VirginiaI mean it is exquisite. CorinneKids love animals! Animals are beautiful! I think it’s okay to like stuff that you think is beautiful, but how can we expand what is beautiful beyond you looking like a princess, I guess?VirginiaNo, I love that. I was thinking the same thing, I think.Is this e a craving for color? Is this a craving for glittery things? You can enjoy color, you can enjoy glitter, you can enjoy bold aesthetic things. And food—you can eat fun cupcakes. You can have flowers in your garden. You can take this beyond her body and how she looks. And I think that’s really important!It’s important to give kids of all genders a chance to explore dress up and playing around with all of this. If it’s makeup, is it makeup where we’re making you look like a tiger, as well as doing lipstick and blush? So she’s still getting that craving for color and texture and that craving for beauty met but in a less adhering-to-beauty-ideals way.I think back to Peggy Orenstein’s book Cinderella Ate My Daughter: Dispatches from the Front Lines of the New Girlie-Girl Culture which I think does totally hold up and is worth the read. All of Peggy Orenstein’s writing on girl culture is really helpful. But her message in that one was: Fight fun with fun. You’re never going to win if you’re trying to shut down the Disney princess brigade. Their marketing is too powerful. But she talked about getting her daughter sneakers with lightning bolts on them.And I think that’s been my approach, as a parent. We’ve never banned princess stuff. I painted both their nurseries pink in different ways because I like the color pink. Not because I wouldn’t have done it if I had a boy, too. I just like pink. But I was aware, I’m using pink and I’m having girls. So I never banned anything, but other things were also always on the table.And the result is, on our vacation someone said something like, “What pretty girls you have!” And I looked at both of them and nobody had brushed their hair in I don’t know how many days and they were reading a book about sharks and discussing which kind of shark will eat you the fastest. And I was like, “Yes this is beautiful.” CorinneI was also wondering if some of this is developmental stage stuff. Because I feel like, at least in our culture, most girls go through something where they’re into dolls. Girls that are into beauty or Barbies or whatever can still grow into adults who aren’t overly focused on that.VirginiaI think that’s completely true. I think three and four are ages where kids get very rigid and binary about gender. The reason is not that gender is essential or biological or any of that. It’s just that kids are developmentally understanding that they are a body separate from their parents at this point. And they’re not really clear on whether gender is something that you can take on and off—which of course it is, right?But for a three year old leaning into, “I’m a girl I like all these girly things,” it can just be a way of understanding, a way of getting her arms around it. It’s not necessarily going to be her full time gender identity. It’s then of course, very reinforced at school where things are very binary, like “line up boys and girls.” There’s so much here we need to push back on to give kids a lot more options. But yes, three and four are the ages where you see kids start pairing off by gender on the playground. There are a couple of books I can link to in the show notes. There’s one called Sparkle Boy about a brother and a sister who both love sparkly things. That’s a fun one to read. Julian Is A Mermaid is another beautiful one. Books that show that you can love beauty and not be a girl. You know, just kind of explode some of those concepts. I think it is really good to start introducing at these ages. It may not all click at once, but it will help them enjoy this but also start to expand your thinking.CorinneAll right. I’ll read the next one too.Do you think it's a problem to feed weird Paleo-bro-type packaged foods to my 3 year old, even if they are not accompanied by ANY Paleo diet culture? Basically, I had to avoid some foods short term for medical reasons and ended up buying one of those everything-free "no-carb" cereals and actually it tastes pretty good. My kid saw me eating it, and now he likes it too. And we shop at this hippie grocery store where he saw some frozen chocolate chip waffles and wanted them. So we got them and it turns out they're made of cassava and avocado or something. It kind of disturbs me to feed him foods that are pretending to be carbs but not made of carbs because I'm worried it will confuse his body/taste buds about what food is, but if he likes them and is still eating pasta at other meals maybe it's fine? Help!VirginiaI want to be clear that these are two different parents of three-year-olds. We don’t have one poor three-year-old, obsessed with being beautiful and Paleo waffles.CorinneParents of three-year-olds need help.VirginiaParents of three-year-olds are not okay. CorinneAnd that’s fair.VirginiaIt’s a really hard age. I feel mostly fine about this. What are your thoughts? CorinneI feel mostly fine about it, too. Although I can definitely understand the stress. VirginiaI would make a point of buying regular Eggo frozen chocolate chip waffles—a staple of my household—and maybe have both and letting him taste test and see what he likes better. You know, just for fun. Not to pit them against each other, but just like, oh, there are a lot of different chocolate chip waffles. Like, let’s try some and see what we like. I’m guessing Eggo will win because it’s awesome? I could be wrong.If you’re still eating these foods as your kid is older and as they’re reading and they notice things on the package, you might want to have some conversations. I did, since my kids know that I don’t believe in diets and diets are bad and they kind of get all that and then I drink my Diet Coke. There are sometimes moments where one of them will be like, really? Are you a liar? VirginiaSo if you like the cereal, but there’s problematic marketing on the package, just talk about it. It’s a great jumping off point of like, how silly if we think this cereal is delicious why do they need to label it this way to sell it? Why don’t they just sell it as a delicious cereal? I think that totally works.Alright.How do I practice fat allyship when I am ostensibly straight-sized and hating my body but loving others?CorinneGet a therapist and keep it to yourself.VirginiaCorinne is not in the mood!CorinneIs that too harsh? I don’t know.VirginiaI’m stuck on “‘ostensibly’ straight-sized.”Corinnewow, I didn’t even pick up on that. VirginiaLike, they know that they’re straight size but they don’t feel that way? It is a fairly binary state. I mean, you can be plus size in some brands and some brands you can’t, I guess. The mid size queen of it all?But yeah, I think it’s how are you standing up for fat people? How are you calling out non-inclusive seating. How are you looking for diet culture in your kids curriculums and reaching out to the school? There are a thousand ways to be a good ally and none of them have anything to do with how you feel about your body. Corinne I do want to say, like, it sucks. It’s a hard place to be when you feel like you’re hating yourself. And also, there is other stuff you can do.VirginiaIf you are “ostensibly straight-sized,” the world is still built for your body. There are ways in which you have privilege here. It’s good to recognize that. We do sound a little harsh and we feel for this person. It is a terrible place to be, in hating your body. But yeah, I think it’s the framing of someone recognizing they have thin privilege, but then getting in their own way a little bit, I guess.CorinneI think the first step also is realizing the fact that you feel bad about your body is still part of anti-fat bias, you know? You have a stake in this. If you’re feeling bad about yourself, you have stakes in fighting against anti-fat bias. So there you go. You’re invested.VirginiaThis is how I feel whenever Glennon Doyle does an eating disorder episode and completely forgets to name anti-fat bias as part of that experience. I mean, she’s had Aubrey Gordon on. Aubrey did a fantastic job on her episode. She’s had Sonya Renee Taylor on. And then, every other time they talk about the eating disorder, it’s just no acknowledgement of thin privilege.Okay. The next question is for Corinne. This person says,I’ve never done lifting of any kind, but I think it would feel good. How do you start? Gyms feels scary. We’ll link to the episode where you gave a lot of advice on navigating gyms. And also the Jesse Diaz Herrera episode, we talked about that. So we’re not going to talk about the gym part so much, because we’ve done that. But yeah, starting lifting. How do you start?CorinneWell, lifting does feel good, so you’re right about that. My advice for starting is get help. Either hire a coach, which is what I do and I love it and it feels very worth it to me. Or get a friend to start with you so you have support in that way. I also did that. I started with a friend and it made a huge difference. You could also look into Casey Johnston’s She’s a Beast program called Lift Off. That is a guide for getting started lifting and you start at home and eventually move into a gym. VirginiaYou did that, right? I remember us talking about it.CorinneI started doing it and then I just like very quickly moved on to having a coach. But the program has good advice for navigating getting yourself into a gym.The kind of gym that you end up choosing can really affect your experience. Like the kind of gym that I go to, I don’t think I ever would have been comfortable going to alone. VirginiaInteresting.CorinneIt’s just kind of a specialized place and it feels very intimidating to me. Even though I hate that that’s true. I would feel comfortable going to a YMCA alone or a different type of gym. So that’s my advice. What’s your advice?VirginiaWell, as someone who doesn’t powerlift, but did recently graduate—I’m going to use numbers, trigger warning—from using five pound weights to using ten pound weights on a lot of the Lauren Leavell workouts.CorinneThat’s awesome. Just to be clear, there are still certain exercises where I would use 10 pound weights!! VirginiaOkay, but they’re not the ones that I’m using ten pound weights for. Are they a bicep curl?CorinneMmm, no. But they are dumbbell exercises.VirginiaI still have to use my five pound weights for shoulder things like this. CorinneYeah, this is really hard. I’m using 10 pounds for that. VirginiaWe’re doing like lateral—what do you call that? CorinneFly.VirginiaYour arms are straight out to the side and you lift.CorinneOr straight in front.VirginiaOh, god, that’s awful. I still use five pounds for that. But yeah, I love it so much. I don’t think I will ever go full powerlifter, but it has been tremendous for managing back pain. I didn’t lift all this week while I was on vacation and by the end of the week, my back was like, we don’t like you anymore.CorinneWow. That’s amazing. VirginiaIt’s cool. It’s empowering. It’s great. I think Corinne has much better advice for someone who wants to get into serious lifting. But if you’re just a little lifting curious, Lauren’s workouts are legit. You will work every muscle group. I have a really dumb powerlifting question, which is, do you only work on the three moves or do you do other moves when you go for a workout? CorinneIt kind of depends on your programming, like what your goal is. You’re basically always working on trying to get better at the main three moves, which are squatting, deadlifting, and bench pressing. But you could be doing variations of those lifts. We usually do programming in three month blocks or something. So at the beginning, you’re not trying to max out the weight, you’re doing more reps at a lower weight or whatever. And then you slowly work up to doing a max. But then I’m also always doing accessories, which are the dumbbell stuff. And some cardio stuff and stuff like that. VirginiaIt’s a whole world.CorinneYeah. That’s another great benefit of working with a coach, they take care of all of that. I’m never having to figure out what I am doing.VirginiaYeah, workout mental load is huge. Outsourcing that is everything. CorinneIt’s so great. I love it.VirginiaI don’t want to make a single decision. I just want to follow instructions. CorinneExactly. VirginiaI can’t imagine wanting to plan a workout for myself.CorinneNo, and if you’re already feeling intimidated by the gym, trying to plan stuff yourself that you haven’t done before or something? I could never. I would just avoid stuff.VirginiaSo yeah, get help. Get support.We’ll also link to we’d like toJulia Turshenexcellentessay about her powerlifting journey. She really broke down step-by-step how she found her coach and the different workouts. I learned a ton. And if you start lifting report back. We want to hear about it. CorinneAlright, Virginia, we would love to hear why you love single mom travel.VirginiaAnd this person said they’re nervous to do it. And I totally get that. I just got back from a few days in Aruba with my daughters, and my sister came, too, and it was amazing. CorinneHave you been there before?VirginiaNo, it was my first time going to Aruba. It’s very chill. It’s just beautiful beaches from what I could tell. Obviously, I’m acknowledging various forms of privilege that make travel possible in my life. But that was my second solo trip with them. The first was the trip to Lake George last summer, which I wrote about. I fully expected to sort of hate it. Like, actually, as the marriage was ending, one of the things I mourned for was we as foursome traveled a lot. And I was like, I’m not going to travel with them anymore. Like, that’s just going to be over. I don’t really know why I thought that except travel with kids is a lot of logistics. You have to be the parent of the trip all the time, you know? And so I think I just thought it’ll feel hard and overwhelming. I want to say, if your kids are five and under, it is going to be hard and overwhelming. If you have to fly with a carseat, it’s a whole other level. And it’s fine to wait, I think. I don’t think 18 month olds are building a lot of useful travel skills. You’re just enduring. But at six and ten, my kids can wheel their own suitcase through the airport and carry their own backpacks. And not whine too much about walking. They whine when we stand in a long line, but maybe then get out a book and sit and read. All of that makes it much more doable. But I just love having a new adventure with them. It gives us just more things to talk about, like funny experiences that happen. There’s ways when you’re in the day-to-day grind of parenting, when it’s just like get your backpack ready for school, did we do homework, is it time for bed. There are moments of connection on a vacation or in any kind of travel situation that can be really wonderful. I mean, there is all the usual kid hassle too. Don’t get me wrong. But what was interesting to me about doing it solo is that what wasn’t there was spouse conflict. And I want to be clear, my kids’ dad and I actually traveled pretty well together. He’s very adventurous, we both prioritize travel. But there’s this thing where you’re feeling like you’re responsible for everybody’s happiness and when one of the people is another adult—and I think he was probably feeling similarly—there’s just a chafing that can happen there. And when it’s just me and the kids, there’s a freedom of like, yeah, we’re just going to eat ice cream for dinner and not have a conversation about it. Or I’m going to give you extra iPad time and not feel guilty about it. You guys want to sleep in my bed? Great. Nobody is going to be grumpy about it. You can just call the shots make the decisions and it’s awesome. So, two thumbs up.CorinneThat sounds great. VirginiaI think if you’re nervous about it, pick somewhere local-ish to start. Look for ways to make it easy. We did do an all-inclusive resort this time which is not my default mode of travel at all. But past family vacations often involved getting an Airbnb and then somebody has to figure out how to feed everybody every meal of the day. And if that somebody is you, then you’re not really on vacation. So opting for experiences where the part that doesn’t feel like a vacation to you can be mitigated. CorinneThat makes sense.Okay, here are the houseplant questions.My snake plant is drooping. Is it too tall or overwatered?VirginiaI think it’s overwatered and/or in too small of a pot. I don’t think it’s too tall because the plants can handle being tall. They don’t usually need to be staked. But if it’s in too small of a pot, it’s crowded in its pot, you’ll start to get them splaying out. They don’t want a lot of water, they definitely want to dry out between waterings. Also, I know everyone loves a snake plant because it can do low light. But they will bloom if you put them in bright light, which is kind of mind blowing. So it could be if it’s gotten over watered, you could move it into a brighter spot if you have one. And that will let it dry out and perk up a little bit is my guess.CorinneCool. Good advice. Okay, the next one is:I live in a small space. Tips for displaying plants for max sunlight / plant happiness?VirginiaI don’t know why size of your space is an issue! You can cram a lot of plants in anywhere. I would say if you have a nice window—I mean, I don’t know if this person is renting, this may not be an option. But if you have a nice window, putting a plant shelf in across the middle of it—and we can put up an old reel of the plant shelf that Dan built for my house. But it goes on my sunniest window, it goes along the middle of the window. It’s like, I don’t know, six inches wide at most. But it means that you can have a lot of pots all lined up and they’re going to get maximum sunlight. So that could be a fun way to do it. If you’re renting, I would do that and/or some kind of tiered plant stand where you can fit a lot of smaller pots in the footprint of maybe one bigger plant. Does that make sense? CorinneThat’s a good idea.VirginiaBecause plants really like to be grouped together, because then they make their own humidity. It’s much easier, I think, to take care of 12 plants all crowded together on a shelf than it is to take care of one fig tree that’s going to be a total prima donna.CorinneThat’s a great point.VirginiaWhat about you? You’ve got a good number of plants. CorinneI have plants, but I just don’t care about them. I’m happy that they exist, but I just can’t worry about them. VirginiaThat’s a good attitude. CorinneI think of them as furniture. I just forget that they’re living things that need stuff. But it’s very sunny here, you know? And they’re mostly in one window.VirginiaThis feels like New Mexico Privilege to me. CorinneI have an East-facing window over my kitchen sink and I had a bunch of plants in there and I had to take them all out because it actually gets too sunny and they were dying. I don’t have any great advice. VirginiaI’m excited for this person. I want a picture when you got lots of plants. ---ButterVirginiaMy Butter today is Blue, the leopard gecko, and the journey we are on together. I realized I hadn’t told the story on the podcast yet and its important. Especially as it is still unfolding. A significant portion of my life is devoted to Gecko care. If you don’t follow me on Instagram, the short version of the story is last March, my older daughter got a pet leopard gecko named Blue. And they were very thrilled and taking really good care of it. Blue was a treasured member of our family. And then sometime in April or May, Blue disappeared and we could not find her anywhere.We searched the entire house. We searched, we moved all the furniture out, like epic searching went on. Blue was nowhere. We don’t know what happened. My daughter thinks she put her down somewhere. It was heartbreaking. We grieved, we mourned. We finally realized after a few weeks that Blue was probably dead. And then last fall, my daughter asked for another Gecko for her birthday. And we adopted Cat, the gecko who came to live with us last September and has been doing great. Then cut to earlier this month when the girls are at Dan’s for the weekend and I am cleaning out my closet, which was very overdue. I moved a whole bunch of stuff, like suitcases, you know, the back of the closet where shit goes to die? I moved a bunch of stuff out and there is Blue, the leopard gecko who had survived in our house somehow for 10 months. CorinneWow. VirginiaThis gecko lived— we don’t know how exactly. I mean, there’ are multiple theories. Is she a space traveler? Is she a time traveler? Did she live off stinkbugs? All very possible. There are a lot of those in my house.So it was a very emotional weekend. I call Dan and get Violet on FaceTime and show her the gecko. We find a reptile vet, I pay an absurd amount of money to rush in with the gecko. She’s alive, but she’s undernourished. She’s half the size she should be and calcium depleted, like you can see she’s shaking. Her bones are fragile. But she was not dead! She was moving around pretty well and so we were sent home with calcium supplements and this special therapeutic diet for her.CorinneOh my gosh.VirginiaWe now have to syringe feed her daily and that’s what we’ve been doing. My amazing petsitter Ally did that while we were on vacation last week because my daughter would have canceled the vacation if we didn’t have a Blue rehab program in place. The reason Blue was my butter is obviously she is an icon and a hero. But also, I’m actually pretty creeped out by tiny crawly things. I hate mice. I cannot deal with mice. And geckos are like a little rodent-like, they scurry. But I can pick up this gecko and syringe feed her because when Violet is at her dad’s, I have to do it all by myself.CorinneI’m loving that you have a pet that needs feeding therapy.VirginiaThe story of my life.CorinneAnti-diet geckos.VirginiaYeah, we’re fattening her up! We’ve got to get double her weight. I think she’s about ready to try eating on her own. I left a couple wax worms in her tank last night and they seem to be gone. I need to witness her eating before we can stop syringe feeding, but I think she ate the wax worms I put out. That was a test. Because you can’t re-feed too fast, right? So we started on 0.4 milliliters of food and we’ve been gradually increasing up to one whole milliliter now. CorinneIt’s time.VirginiaI think you’re ready to feed yourself.CorinneSo funny. I love Blue.VirginiaShe’s amazing. I think Cat, the other gecko, feels a little second fiddle. And rightfully so. But the other thing is, we apparently can’t house them in the same tank. CorinneOh, I was wondering. VirginiaIf anyone has ever housed two female leopard geckos together, I would like to know how it went! But the vet was like, “I would be really cautious. We should run bloodwork and make sure Blue hasn’t picked up any communicable diseases.” I was like, in my closet?? CorinneWow, who knew they could do bloodwork on geckos?VirginiaOh, yeah. I have to return with a fecal sample soon.CorinneOh, my gosh, wow. VirginiaIt’s a whole situation. But anyway, what’s your Butter? CorinneMy butter is bran muffins.VirginiaOhhh, the ones you were posting? CorinneYes. I’ve been posting pictures of bran muffins on Instagram. VirginiaThey look so good. CorinneA couple of months ago, one of my friends was posting pictures of bran muffins on Instagram and linked to this recipe for bran muffins, which is a really weird recipe. It makes the hugest batch of muffins you ever could conceive of. I made half a recipe. The thing about it is you mix it up and then you leave it in your fridge and bake a few muffins for yourself every morning. It’s a really nice little routine to have and I think the batter lasts for two weeks or something.I like bran muffins. They are an example of maybe a diet-y food that I actually really enjoy. And I think this recipe is like particularly good. It has molasses in it, so it has a really good flavor. VirginiaYum, I was obsessed with the grocery store bran muffins when I was a kid. You know how grocery store bakeries will sometimes do one or two things just exceptionally well? Our grocery store had really good ones and I never recaptured the magic of that bran muffin. I want to try this recipe.CorinneI think bran muffins often just taste really sweet and delicious. VirginiaThat’s what I’m looking for. CorinneAnd they’re a good vehicle for butter and jam and all of that stuff. But yeah, I really enjoy these bran muffins.VirginiaI’m definitely going make them. That sounds so good. ---The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith (follow me on Instagram) and Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, an Instagram account where you can buy and sell plus size clothing.The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.Our theme music is by Jeff Bailey and Chris Maxwell.Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!

Exploring the intersection of consumerism, diet culture, and white supremacy, with insights from a registered dietitian. Strategies for reducing impulse shopping and rethinking daily problem-solving through shopping. Addressing perfectionism, clothing sustainability, and comfort shopping motivations in relation to societal constructs.

Welcome to Indulgence Gospel After Dark!It’s time for your March Extra Butter. This month we’re answering a reader question about baggy, black clothes. Then Virginia takes Corinne down a rabbit hole to unpack the rainbow produce, and subtle food- and fat-shaming, of Kids Eat in Color.To listen to the full episode and read the full transcript, you’ll need to join Extra Butter, our premium subscription tier.Extra Butter now costs just $99 per year.In addition to these monthly episodes (where we get into juicy stuff like the anti-diet to alt-right pipeline, a truly bonkers TikTok diet and my post-divorce body), you’ll also get a comp to Cult of Perfect and access to our monthly live thread discussions — our next one is next Wednesday at 12pm Eastern!Plus Extra Butter ensures that the Burnt Toast community can always stay an ad- and sponsor-free space—which is crucial for body liberation journalism. Join us here!(Questions? Glitches? Email me all the details)Extra Butter Episode 5 TranscriptThis episode includes affiliate links. Shopping our links is another great way to support Burnt Toast!CorinneOkay, we're going to start today with a listener question, and then we're going to dive into one of the influencers that you all ask us about most often. VirginiaYou might call her the Ballerina Farm of kid food influencing. I'm really proud of that little teaser there, just so you know. CorinneIt's pretty good and I'm really excited because I have no idea who this is.VirginiaI can't wait. CorinneOkay, I'm going to read the listener question first.Do I genuinely like baggy black comfy clothes or is it fatphobia?VirginiaThis is a very good question.CorinneWait, I have a follow up question. Do you wear baggy black comfy clothes? Because you seem like a very colorful dresser.VirginiaYes, I am a very colorful dresser, although that is in large part due to the work I did with to realize I wanted to be a colorful dresser. But I definitely go through baggy clothes versus non-baggy clothes seasons.CorinneI am in a season of embracing black because I love wearing black but the color seasons thing told me that I shouldn't wear black. VirginiaWait. Did you get your colors done?CorinneI didn't get them done, but sometime last year, I got obsessed with the Color Me Beautiful thing because of TikTok. And I was like, “Oh, everything I buy needs to be soft summer,” which is muted cool tones. VirginiaYeah, I think I'm soft summer, too. Well. Maybe not with this current hair color.CorinneI never would have known. But yeah, I actually like black and maybe it does make me look washed out, but who cares?VirginiaI have had Color Me Beautiful on my list of essays to do forever. You know I was like a hardcore Color Me Beautiful disciple in middle school?CorinneI was also into it at that age. Only because my friend's mom had the book.VirginiaMy mom also had the book. We did our colors, and then for my birthday she got me this little wallet-size book of all of my colors, which could carry around. We were in deep and I'm just like, how is this trend back, in this day?CorinneAt what point did you let it go?VirginiaI think it was Angela Chase who liberated me. It was hard to want both the flannel shirt, Doc Martens thing and be a soft summer. CorinneYes, and only wear light blue. I can really really see that.VirginiaIt worked fine for when I was in my Jane Austen phase. There was a period of a high school where I tried to dress like a Jane Austen character as much as possible. CorinneWow. We might need the photographic evidence.VirginiaI did learn to sew a reticule during that era. I think maybe that's why I don't sew anymore? Because it's really hard to sew a reticule. CorinneYeah, that seems fair.VirginiaAnd then when I went to college. And I went to NYU and you can't go to NYU and not wear black. They won’t let you. You can't show up at NYU in your pastels, not in 1999. CorinneWell and it feels now, like among people who are into slow fashion and stuff, baggy black linen clothes are very in. VirginiaI think that baggy black clothes have been very chic for a long time. It's a very minimalist look, the linen sack dress sort of situation.CorinneYour wide leg black linen pants, and your black linen tunic.VirginiaOn the question of is it fatphobia, I can read it two ways. I have had times where my internalized fatphobia has only wanted to hide my body in lots of big clothes and I have had times where my internalized fatphobia has made me wear more fitted things because wearing the big baggy thing made me look bigger.So I don't know that it's fatphobia for this person? Because it was good for me to reclaim giant dresses and be like, I like wearing a mumu. This is great. I don't care if it makes me look physically larger, I love taking up space in a big mumu.What has your journey been on the baggy thing? CorinneThere's something not fatphobic about just embracing clothes as practical or comfortable. And I do think that baggy-ish black clothes are comfortable and practical. So if that's why you're doing it, I don't think that's fatphobic. But personally, I think I've always tended more towards the baggy stuff. Or, well, I don't know, I guess I've always worn both? I like baggy clothes. And I also like, tight clothes. I don't know, I can't say. It's true, baggy clothes are more practical in some contexts and less practical in others. I actually recently realized that sometimes at the gym—I usually wear a baggy t-shirt to the gym—and recently I was like actually, sometimes it's helpful to not be wearing the baggiest shirt you own.VirginiaWell, and when you do your powerlifting meets, you wear a singlet which is the opposite of baggy. So clearly there is a function!CorinneSometimes a shirt can be so baggy that it's getting in your way, when you're trying to move.VirginiaYou don’t want to be thinking about it flopping around while you lift all of the weight off the floor. CorinneAnd I have a very nice kind of “oversized” denim shirt that I recently ripped because it caught on a nail I was walking by. And then I was like, “Maybe this is too oversized if it's catching on nails as I sweep by them.”VirginiaJust picturing you sweeping down a hall in a giant denim thing. CorinneTight clothes have a place, too, is all I’m trying to say.VirginiaThis person also didn't say if they're straight-sized or fat. I definitely think for fat people, wearing oversized clothes can be a reclaiming because I do think that's something we're steered away from. And there's also a thing about wanting to hide your body sometimes. Maybe you work a job or are going to your kids’ school or just like having your body in a place where focus on your body doesn't feel relevant or helpful. So maybe there's some comfort in the baggy clothes, because you're like, “I am not showing up here as a body to be displayed.” That seems valid to me, to just want that comfort sometimes. And in the process of working towards feeling better in your body, clothes that don't require you to think about your physical body can be helpful. It isn't fun to sit in pants where the waistband is cutting in. When I am working, I don't want to think about how my clothes are fitting, right? Because I want to get my work done. I don't want to think my pants feel tight or this shirt is stiff and riding up weirdly. So my work from home clothes are definitely often on the baggier side or the stretchier side. I don't want to be aware of them.It can be practical. It can be about your discomfort with your body and needing to sort of have some space from it, but it doesn't necessarily mean that you are practicing fatphobia.CorinneDo we want to come down on one side or the other in answering this question? VirginiaI don’t thinking we can come down on one side or the other because the question is only one sentence and we don't know enough about this. I don't think we can say for you, listener, if this is fatphobia. There are some questions to ask about your relationship with baggy black clothes. Is it because you're hiding your body? If so, what is making you want to hide your body? That is something to explore. Is it that these are just comfortable clothes? If so, why would that be a problem? Is there a feeling like, do I have permission to wear baggy clothes? Well, then by all means, please lean in.Do you feel more strongly about one side or the other? CorinneI would say, given no context, no, I don't think that liking baggy, black, comfy clothes is fatphobic.VirginiaWe're pro baggy, black, comfy clothes. We are definitely pro comfy clothes. CorinneDefinitely pro wearing what feels comfortable.So what’s the deal with Kids Eat In Color?VirginiaOkay Corinne, it is timefor me to introduce you to Kids Eat in Color. Do you really have no idea who this person is? CorinneMy only context for this is that you've mentioned them before when talking about Kid Food Instagram. So I've seen posts, but I don't know who this person is. And I don't follow their work at all.VirginiaThat’s valid. You don't have kids to feed. Why would you do that?So the reason I said she was like the Ballerina Farm of the kid food Instagram is, this is someone with 1.9 million followers. Granted, Ballerina Farm has like 10 million followers now. But for Kid Food Instagram, she's a major player. And this is the account when people in mom chats, in mom Facebook groups, whenever people are like, “I’m struggling with how to feed my kid.” The first suggestion that comes up is, “Do you know Kids Eat in Color?” So she is considered a foremost—I'm using air quotes—expert on how we feed our kids.CorinneAnd she is a nutritionist? Or? VirginiaShe is. Jennifer Anderson has a Master's of Science in Public Health from Johns Hopkins. And she has an RDN, which stands for registered dietitian nutritionist. She founded Kids Eat in Color in 2019 as “an authority on research that helps families feed their children from their first bite of solid food through picky eating and elementary aged nutrition needs.”Her bio on Instagram is: “Help your picky kid eat veggies and have a good relationship with food! How to help kids try foods & what to feed them.”And an interesting thing to know about her background is that prior to starting this, Anderson was coordinating youth nutrition programs at a food bank and researching inner city food deserts, and also a consultant for the USDA Food Stamps education programs. So she has this public health experienc, which is interesting. She also references cultural anthropology as being part of her background. So something we need to understand right off the bat is that this is a very thin white woman who has been specializing in how to feed poor kids. An we need people to think harder about how to feed poor kids, but public health does have a problematic history of white saviors, and thin white people in particular coming into low income brown and black neighborhoods and thinking that they can “solve” the ob*sity crisis, without necessarily talking to the people in those neighborhoods about what they need and what will help them. And that might show up in a couple of Instagram posts we're going to look at.Okay, so click on the first Instagram link I put in the outline and tell us what you see.CorinneI see a photo, a very colorful photo of some food. The title says “airplane food” and it's almost like a little like pill container with each little hole filled with a different snacky thing. Very tiny quantities of Lara bar, blueberries, apples, peas, dates, bell pepper, chocolate candies, cashews, pepitas, elderberry, gummies, coconut, strawberries, O’s, and carrots.VirginiaThis is what I would call Classic Kids Eat in Color. This post was from November 2023 but she was repurposing it. I have seen this since the beginning of her content. And it’s a post that is purporting to solve a problem. You are flying on an airplane with your toddler and you need to bring them snacks. Instead of just packing, I don't know—like I would grab some bags of Cheez-Its and some cheese sticks or whatever— she has put together this incredibly beautiful box of elaborate things, with a whole array of different foods.CorinneIt's not like you're just bringing an apple. It's like you're bringing tiny apple cubes. What did you do with the rest of the apple? Because it's three tiny, tiny apple cubes that would fill up a pill container.VirginiaThat’s a good question. You'll also notice the carrots are cut into star shapes. CorinneYes, I did notice.VirginiaYou'll also notice that she doesn't just list the foods, she provides a reason why she's packing it. For example, eating a date will put your child in a good mood, apparently.CorinneAs anyone who has ever known a child knows, just feed them a date and they will stop crying.VirginiaInstant good mood. Also pepitas! Good mood. CorinneYes. Also, coconut = stable blood sugar.VirginiaAnd then the Cheerios are a pipe cleaner activity because you've apparently also packed pipe cleaners and you're going to have your toddler thread Cheerios on a pipe cleaner on an airplane.This photo stresses me out so much because all I see when I see this photo is how fast my children, even at their current ages of six and ten, let alone toddler ages, could flip that entire box. And now every snack I have packed for however long this flight is, is stuck in the crevices of the airplane seat. Even in the caption, she says “works best on an airplane when you're sitting next to your child to supervise and make sure they don't dump it.” This is such a project.CorinneI mean, all that I see when I look at it is how much labor you're putting into it. And waste. It just seems like a terrible idea.VirginiaBecause I can tell you: Of the 19 different foods that are packed into this pill box, your kid probably only wants to eat two of them. They're going to eat all the Cheerios and the M&M’s and they're going to be like, “I just want more Cheerios and M&M’s." I don't now want to switch to elderberry gummies, or the six peas you packed so I can “work on my fine motor skills.”Like I said, this is an old post that she reposts all the time because it always goes viral. The origin of Kids Eat in Color content is: food has all of this purpose. There are all these specific reasons why you want to serve these specific foods. And there is a lot of work that goes into making the food look pretty. So right off the bat, I'm stressed out by it. I'm not saying this is an anti-fat post or classist post. Maybe a little classist. But it's a little exhausting. So okay, go to the next link.CorinneWow, okay, yeah, these are fascinating. For potato chips, it's “potato chips are bad for you” versus “these are called potato chips.”VirginiaWhich you can only use the one time, right? What are you supposed to say the next time?Corinne I mean, this is very interesting. The next one is gummy bears. Unhelpful is “sugar is poison,” and helpful is “served with dinner, no comment.” The next one is M&M’s and it says “candy has no nutritional value,” versus “candy isn't on the menu today.” So already there's some kind of mixed messaging between serving something with dinner with no comment versus “candy isn't on the menu today.”VirginiaShe is framing the “can be helpful” list as a food positive way to talk to kids about nutrition. So she's saying, “Don't fear monger, don't say processed meat gives you cancer, don't say it'll make you fat, don't say it's bad for you.” But what she does want you to say is, “This is this very specific time in which I will allow you to eat this food.” So there's a lot unsaid in what she wants you to say. And I agree with her that like, let's not do anything in the unhelpful column. But saying “for us, pepperoni is only for when we have pizza?” That's a diet rule. What would happen if pepperoni was sometimes served in other formats?CorinneAs a snack?VirginiaHow does that make your kid feel about the fact that their friend brings pepperoni for lunch every day? Why do you have a special rule about pepperoni in your house?In the caption she’s arguing that we're in this dichotomy where some folks will tell you “you should only say good or neutral things about any food.” and some folks will tell you, “you should teach kids all the bad things about unhealthy foods.” And she's like, “You may have noticed, I'm more of a rainbow perspective person than a black and white person. You don't have to choose between these two extreme ways of thinking.”But her rainbow approach is often misleading or still very imbued with the negative in a way that I think folks would find stressful. We're going to see that level up a bit in the next link.CorinneOkay. This one is a reel and I'm just gonna read the caption, I generally don’t recommend heavy restriction of foods, because it comes with some risks. At the same time, not restricting also has some risks, and I respect families to live out their priorities and care for their child in the unique ways that their child needs.⁠…When people say “you should never restrict or your child will have a bad relationship with food,” they are also suggesting that if you don’t restrict, your child will have a good relationship with food. Research doesn’t support this idea as a promise either. ⁠VirginiaSo this is what I would call “restriction apologist content.” She's like, “No matter what you do, your kid could turn out fine. Or not.” It’s almost like nihilism or something. She's like, who knows? CorinneRight. But it also seems like the thing she's not saying is, the risk of not restricting foods is that your kid will be fat. Like, what other risk are we talking about here?VirginiaThat's right. That's what she's saying.That comes up over and over. She's like, “There are downsides to having no restrictions,” but she never names the downside. Because we all know what she means by the downside and she doesn't want to say that.Then she sums it up with like, “So you can restrict but just don't bad mouth food.” Like just don't say bad things about it. You can have restriction in your child's life, just like, still say nice things. And that feels like a real fence straddling position. CorinneIt feels very confusing. VirginiaSo you don't hate cookies, but we’re still only eating them once a week or only your homemade kind or whatever the restrictions are.CorinneWe only have cookies with pepperoni.Virginia Okay, let’s go here next:CorinneSo this is a slide show, which talks a little bit about weight stigma. Weight stigma comes from the idea that a high weight is bad and that people have a choice about how much they weigh. Weight is about 40 to 70 percent genetic. A person who has experienced economic poverty is more likely to have a higher weight. Adverse childhood experiences that come with higher weight. When that person asked me, How do you stay so thin? I think they expect him to hear me say I diet eat really well and work out? The true answer is that my genetics, environment, resources and a few personal choices have determined my weight.VirginiaSo she's highlighting on the same kind of thing that I would say about how weight is not something that we have a lot of control over. I make that same argument. But it hits differently when the person saying it leads with a photo of herself as a thin person. And leads with the question, “how do you stay so thin?”I think she thinks she's doing something brave and bold here. CorinneIt also feels a little cagey. She's like weight is about 40 to 70 percent genetic and then she says, “the true answer is that genetics, environment, resources, and a few personal choices have determined my weight.” Like she's not saying you have no control over it.Virginia“A few personal choices” of choosing restriction for myself and my children.And this post, again, is a retreading. I've seen a version of this post several times over the years, but this particular post came out March 30 last year—and it was the first post she made in response to the American Academy of Pediatrics weight guidelines, which came out last January. Kids Eat In Color waited two months before taking any kind of stand against the AAP guidelines. And then she doesn't actually take a stand against them. These were the guidelines which encourage pediatricians to put kids on diets, prescribed weight loss drugs, refer for bariatric surgery. She says, “No, we don't support widespread implementation of a treatment guideline that focuses on weight loss[…] We do fully support the thorough evidence included in the guideline to combat the belief that weight is a personal choice. That work is essential and countercultural.”I cannot call anything about the AAP guidelines essential and countercultural, I'm sorry. It was a directive to doctors to prescribe weight loss to children. That's what that was. So this really infuriated me. And yeah, you can see it has 5,000 likes.People really rely on her content. I've had a lot of folks who follow me say, “you and Kids Eat in Color are the only people I trust on this topic.” And I'm always just like, “Oh, that's an interesting combination of sources.”  Something else to note: She has this whole team of contributors now, who develop content with her. But you can see it's all straight size people. She's not getting any perspective from any fat folks on her content directly. It is racially diverse, but it is not body size diverse, which I think is tricky. And she remains very much the face of the brand. Then the last thing that's just sort of like, I don't quite know what to do with, but click on the next one. CorinneOkay, this one says, “normalize WIC in five steps.”VirginiaFor folks who don't know, WIC is the special Supplemental Nutrition Program for Women, Infants, and Children. That is a government program. This is a pro-WIC post, where she's talking about how the program works and how important it is. WIC is a hugely important resource and we should be funding it much more than we are. And it is associated with better infant weight and better maternal health, better infant health, better development, all of that. What's interesting about this post is if you scroll to the end, she explains that she is in partnership with the Michigan WIC program and they are now making her meal plan available to all of their participants. Which I'm pretty sure means that they are paying her and that this is a sponsored post, which I don't necessarily mind except there are all these rules about how Instagram posts are supposed to disclose that they are paid content and she's not doing that. She announces the partnership, but it doesn't say paid content anywhere. It doesn't say sponsored posts. I fact-checked this with Amy who also has to follow the same rules for her content and she was like, “Yeah, she's not disclosing that relationship.”I just have mixed feelings about this. If WIC is going to pay an Instagram creator for content for a meal plan, can they hire Christyna Johnson? There are so many Black folks, and other folks of color, doing this work and the fact that they hired a thin white lady to design this program for them, when most of their constituents are not thin white ladies doesn't sit right with me. CorinneYeah, that makes sense.VirginiaSo this is Kids Eat in Color. Thoughts, feelings, reactions?CorinneIt's one of those things where I can really see why it's so appealing. I can see why it works on Instagram. It's visually appealing and it seems really simple. But then I'm like, God, it also just seems like so much work and so much stress.VirginiaI don't know that she simplifies how to feed kids. She has posts about how to get your kids to eat more broccoli and how to keep exposing them to broccoli in all these different ways. I don't think that reduces stress. Because I don't think our goal is to get kids to eat any specific foods.This is why I'm always surprised when people compare us because she says right in her bio, “help your picky kid eat veggies and have a good relationship with food.” And my goal is not to get picky kids to eat veggies. Like, I'm not taking it one vegetable at a time here. So that is just a difference and a nuance to feeding kids here. CorinneI mean, we didn't even really talk about the post that's like, the idea of dessert with dinner or whatever where she's just like, “that doesn't work for some people's philosophy. It doesn't align with some people's customs or values.” What are you getting at exactly?VirginiaIs the custom or value Weight Watchers? Is the philosophy Weight Watchers? CorinneYour value is not eating dessert every day? Is that a value? I don't know. VirginiaThere's a lot of like, “we need to respect parents to make their own choices,” which sounds very empowering. But the choice that she's always respecting is restriction without taking a hard look at why you might be restricting.I have talked before about how structure is different from restriction. Kids do need structure. I just wrote the whole thing about not giving in on a third type of cheese at dinner. Because like, look, I can restrict! I can restrict you to just two types of cheese in a meal. It's not that kids don't need structure, they do. But to embrace the term restriction is a real red flag to me. And to talk about it in this coded way. Anyone who's coming to this content with a diet mindset is going to find support for their diet mindset.CorinneSo true. Even one of the most recent posts that's showing a plate with a bunch of food and then a plate with only a little food and saying, “if you want them to explore new foods, try serving them less food.” That stresses me out. VirginiaYes, this is rooted in kids get overwhelmed with big portions. But that's because you're giving them a plate of all unfamiliar foods. It is true if you're going to introduce a new food, introducing a small quantity will be more appreciated than giving them an entire plate of something they don't want. But you also want them to get enough to eat at dinner. So there should be a lot of the food that they will eat and feel comfortable eating, so that they don't leave the table hungry. The picture, this plate includes rice, some kind of chickpea curry situation, strawberries and blueberries. If your child won't eat the chickpea concoction which is right on top of the rice, there's no option to just eat plain rice. If they don't want to eat the chickpea concoction, they're left with strawberries and blueberries for dinner.CorinneYeah, and the fruit is touching the chickpea stuff.VirginiaWhich like, of course, nobody wants that. So that feels like it's setting them up. Like they have to get the chickpeas and the rice so that they don't go hungry. But that might not work. A lot of picky kids need a safe carb on on the table. CorinneAnd just the way she frames “serving less” as being superior somehow, I don't love. VirginiaI do think understanding this background and public health and that sort of problematic history. I'm painting with a broad brush. There are lots of folks doing amazing work in public health. We will link to anti racist dietitian. Anjali's work is really wonderful for understanding much more nuance about all of this.Antiracist DietitianThe Problem With Restricting What People Buy With SNAP BenefitsIn January, Republican lawmakers in Iowa drafted a bill that would have restricted those who receive Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program (SNAP, a.k.a. "food stamp") benefits to purchases from a very short and specific list of foods. SNAP recipients can currently use their benefits to buy almost any type …Read more3 years ago · 22 likes · 5 comments · Anjali PrasertongAntiracist DietitianTeaching Poor People About Food Is Not the AnswerI've started and scrapped and restarted this essay several times. Imagine the camera zooming in on a wastebasket filled with crumpled typewritten pages, my thoughts written in red pen across the top. Too mean, this introduction about how teaching people a new recipe won't help them eat more vegetables…Read more3 years ago · 32 likes · 9 comments · Anjali PrasertongAntiracist DietitianWe Need to Talk About Food & GentrificationA new fast-casual sandwich spot opened up in my neighborhood recently, and although I had followed its progress on social media for awhile, it was hard to feel excited about its arrival. "Why did they have to call it Bodega??" I complained to my husband. "It's so clueless…Read more3 years ago · 15 likes · Anjali PrasertongBut anyway, don't take snack boxes on the airplane full of tiny tiny little foods that are gonna dump. I’m so stressed out for anyone who follows that little plane tip.CorinneNo thank you.---ButterVirginiaDo you have a Butter for us?CorinneI do have a Butter. I'm sort of feeling like my Butter isn't like joyful enough. But I recently was reintroduced to the Pomodoro timer. Do you know what that is? Do you know what Pomodoro is?VirginiaIs it like, batch working? Or something about working? CorinneYeah, it's where you work for 25 minutes and then take a 5 minute break. And then like you do that four times, and then you get like a longer break. But anyways, there's a little online timer, pomo focus. I’m finding it a very helpful way to balance between working and scrolling on social media. To be like, Okay, I'm going to work and then I'm going to scroll for five minutes and then I'm going to work.Or, you know, sometimes for five minutes, I'll mix it up and go outside. Do a grumpy little walk, grumpy little sunshine, five minutes. I'm just really enjoying that as a method of getting things done, so I thought I would recommend it.VirginiaI'm intrigued by that. I have been thinking a lot about my scrolling because I'm spending less professional time on Instagram, but… my use of Instagram is not going down. CorinneOh, interesting. VirginiaI'm still on it. The time I would have spent making reels is gone. The posting is quicker. But I'm still scrolling. And I would like some boundaries around that for myself because I know it is not what my brain really wants.CorinneAnd I'm sure you find this too, sometimes I need to look at Instagram for something I'm working on or doing. VirginiaResearching this whole episode today! CorinneYes. And so the other thing I'm finding helpful is just to be like, I can do that in 20 minutes. At any given time when I look at the timer, there's going to be less than 25 minutes. And that is an amount of time that my brain can wait. If I'm like, there's 11 minutes of working left. I'm like, okay, I can wait to check that text or whatever.VirginiaOh, I like that. That's a great suggestion.CorinneDo you have a Butter?VirginiaI do have a Butter. It is this turtleneck I'm wearing right now, which is from the Universal Standard Foundations line. When we did the fat fashion concierge recently I asked for pajama recommendations. And a lot of folks said that they like the Universal Standard foundations stuff for pajamas. So I went on and ordered some of their tank tops and the pajama pants which I do really love. But because I swear Universal Standard just follows me around like, “how do we get you to spend all the money,” they were then like, it's 20% off. And then if you buy three things, it's 30%. It was one of those sales where the more you buy, the more you save, except not really. Anyway, I bought this turtleneck as well. I love it, though. It's a really good fabric. It has a teeny rib to it. It's thin and very soft. We're at the point in winter and/or my perimenopause journey where I'm frequently too hot, but still need coverage. And it is like a great weight. It's light, but warm.Corinne Yeah, it looks like it'd be a really good layer under a sweater, too.VirginiaYes. Were I ever the type of person who wouldn't immediately combust with hotness at that idea of layering, I could layer this. I did think about layering under my jumpsuit.CorinneOh, that sounds cute.VirginiaIs that cute? Or is that dorky to wear a turtleneck under a jumpsuit? CorinneI think I would think it was cute, but who knows. VirginiaI appreciate that.CorinneI'd have to see it.VirginiaI'll have to try it. I'm into these turtlenecks. I remember Mia O'Malley recommended them a really long time ago, so this isn't a new rec. But she was right, and now I'm waiting for another sale, so I can stock up on some other colors. CorinneYeah, it's a good color, too. VirginiaAnd for Zoom life, turtlenecks are a good work shirt. You never have to worry about cleavage, but you feel sort of polished in them.  If you really want baggy, this is not for you. And I'm not here to shame your baggy clothes, but it's comfy. It's cute, for sure. ---The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith (follow me on Instagram) and Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, an Instagram account where you can buy and sell plus size clothing.The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.Our theme music is by Jeff Bailey and Chris Maxwell.Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!

Lyz Lenz discusses redefining success in marriage and prioritizing personal happiness, navigating intersectionality of marriage, overcoming loneliness post-divorce, and unexpected positives of divorce like a cleaner home. She also shares sources of joy and entertainment in a fun chat with the host.

You’re listening to Burnt Toast!We are Virginia Sole-Smith and Corinne Fay, and it’s time for your January Indulgence Gospel.This month instead of the usual listener questions, we are doing a late winter / early spring books forecast where we’re going to tell you about a whole bunch of books we are very excited to be reading!All of these titles are available in a special Book Gospel section of the Burnt Toast book store over at Split Rock books, where you can take 10% off any title from today’s episode with the code “bookgospel” through March 31.Indulgence gospel episodes are usually paywalled, but we’re keeping the entire books discussion free today. You will need to be a paid Burnt Toast subscriber to listen to Butter, which includes recommendations from some of the authors featured in today’s episode for:A specially engineered wireless braAn under the radar TV showWhere to get the best cannoliand MORE!Subscriptions are $5 per month or $50 for the year. You can join Extra Butter for just $99 for the year—which includes a monthly live chat and even more Indulgence Gospel, plus a comp subscription to Cult of Perfect.This transcript contains affiliate links. Shopping our links is another great way to support Burnt Toast!Episode 131 TranscriptCorinneAre you ready to talk about pants?VirginiaWhen are we not talking about pants?CorinneThat was my smooth segue.VirginiaThat was good. In the outline it just says “Corinne segue us to pants chat” and you did it.CorinneI think the the thing that we can’t avoid talking about right now is leggings legs. If you’ve been on Instagram or TikTok, you have probably heard leggings legsVirginiaI have and I wish I had not. CorinneThe thing about leggings legs is I learned about it because I’m seeing everyone on TikTok and Instagram have a reaction to it. When I tried to find out what leggings legs were specifically, I started by searching TikTok. Now when you search “leggings legs” on TikTok now it gives you the number for National Eating Disorder Awareness hotline. So this has quickly been turned around. The only thing I could even find was some very small scale influencer responding to a comment on her video where someone said “you have the perfect legs for leggings,” and she was like, “oh, thanks, I didn’t know,” and did a little spin. From what I can gather, the perfect leggings legs are you have a thigh gap.VirginiaRight? It’s a new way of saying thigh gap. CorinneYes. Everyone reacted so quickly being like, “this is bullshit,” that it’s over. VirginiaWell, you know what? I’m going to just say hi five team, then. This was a great rapid response effort. If you Google it, you immediately get all the news coverage being like, “people are outraged about the leggings leg trend.”CorinneYeah, but none of the news stories even link to the origin of this leggings legs thing.VirginiaI wonder if it’s like a wag the dog situation where there was no origin. Was this planted? Are we being distracted from a larger issue?CorinneI would love to know. Did Lululemon plant the story so everyone is googling “leggings”?VirginiaNow all your targeted ads are serving you leggings? We are contributing to that effort by having this conversation. I want to mostly be thrilled that our services weren’t even needed. I think the Gen Z activists were like, shut it down. But it also makes me wonder like, was it ever anything? CorinneEven if we didn’t have the term leggings legs, I feel like everyone already knew—Virginia—about thigh gaps. Do we need to explain that you don’t need to have a thigh gap? That it’s normal for human thighs to touch one another? I don’t know. It feels like it’s not a conversation we even need to have anymore.CorinneMaybe I’m just too old for this now that I’m 38.VirginiaThat was never one of my body hang ups to begin with. It’s so interesting what different body parts we get sold the narrative about. My peak bout body anxiety years were not thigh gap years, they were torso years. It was like the Britney Spears, Jessica Simpson, exposed midriff. That’s my trauma. Did you have thigh gap trauma? CorinneI think thigh gap just always felt so out of reach for me. My thighs didn’t gap from the day I was born. Even as like a mid size teen, still was not close. VirginiaOkay. So leggings legs has come and gone. We are deeming it over.CorinneNobody needs to worry about it. Jeans legs, on the other hand…VirginiaYou’re excited about some new jeans and I think I want to order to them, but you need to teach me what to order. CorinneOkay, well, first of all, these are not new jeans. VirginiaThey’re new to you? They’re new to me. CorinneThey’re new to no one. They’re old. I’m just trying to get more people to buy them because people are constantly asking, “what are the best jeans?” and I’m always like, “these are the best jeans.” No one is listening to me.VirginiaI mean, I did spend all that time telling people there are no good jeans. So I may have undercut you. Apologies. CorinneOh yes, that’s true. There are good jeans. Well, for me.I like jeans from Universal Standard. I only like their like straight leg styles. Everyone recommends these skinny jeans from Universal Standard and I really don’t like the fabric of them. It’s too thin. It wears out instantaneously. VirginiaDue to my lack of thigh gap, I have busted through those thighs. CorinneSame and also I think it’s like too stretchy to the point where they just don’t stay up. VirginiaNo, they don’t. CorinneSo my personal favorite jeans from Universal Standard are the Donna style1, which is a “curve” style. I would not consider myself someone who needs to buy “curve” jeans. What they mean by curve is you have a more than 10 inch difference between your waist and hips.VirginiaI mean, I might but it goes in the other direction.CorinneI somehow ended up buying these probably without ever reading that and this is the fit that I like.The other thing that you need to know about these jeans is that when I measure my body and when I look at the size chart, I’m between like a size 26 and a 28 on the size chart. The size of jeans that fits me is a 24. So, a full size below the smallest measurement of my body according to the size chart. VirginiaIt does say right on the website that the fit runs generous! So others have confirmed that. That’s not just a Corinne fluke.CorinneIt’s not just me. Everyone needs to size down at least one size, possibly two. I know that’s very stressful and basically maybe means ordering more than one pair and returning them.Then I just want to shout out a few other styles which is the Etta which is the same style as Donna but in a straight cut. VirginiaIt also looks like it has a longer leg? The Donna looks a little cropped to me. CorinneEtta has one inch longer leg. And the Donna, if you look at the back view has a dart between the pocket and the waist. The Etta has no dart, so that’s the difference between like curve and straight. I don’t have like a huge butt, so I don’t know that I need a dart, but I do have a big belly, so maybe it helps with that. And then the other style that I like is Stevie. Stevie has a cuff and has a thicker, lower elastic denim and is also like the “straight” style cut. So less than 10 inch gap between your waist and butt.Then the other one I like is Bae, which has a 30 inch inseam (also comes in crop style!). Bae is the style that I originally got from Universal Standard, the first pair I tried. And they lasted me like so long. I’ve had them through size fluctuation and I still haven’t worn through the thighs I will say a lot of these are sold out right now, but just sign up for the notifications because they come back all the time.VirginiaI mean, by the time we finished recording, they’re going to have restocks.CorinneOr have just cancelled all these styles and now no one can get them.VirginiaI’m going to have to spend some time thinking about which of these I’m going to try and I will report back to everybody. I’ve had a lot of personal growth and I’m embracing a straight leg and I’m proud of it. CorinneI can’t wait to see.Corinne in the Donna JeansVirginiaI still struggle with boots and straight leg jeans. I’m just still on my unlearning journey there. But I think I think I can get into some of this. Oh, the Etta comes in fun colors, too.CorinneI would never, but you do you. I do white jeans. I actually haven’t tried their white styles. Maybe I should.VirginiaThat feels like an oversight.CorinneAs a tiny add on, I will say that Universal Standard just came out with some 100% Cotton denim jeans, which I have ordered, but have not arrived.2 VirginiaWe have no Intel but they might be worth exploring, too. But that means there’s going to be no stretch.CorinneNo stretch. But I think they say you order your size. I was confused about whether I would order my normal Universal Standard denim jeans size or my size according to the size chart. I bought two sizes, so we’ll see. VirginiaTo be clear, we are not sponsored by Universal Standard. I think they are a great company and they are the best for a wider range of fat fashion options. And, I want to make sure I can maintain the ability to be critical of them because they are not a perfect company. I want to make sure we’re always not getting clouded by them offering us free stuff or money. I think they’re an important company for Burnt Toast to be paying attention to, but not for financial gain. They’re kind of all we have. I also want to say that as I’ve been living in my joggers and I continue to live in my joggers, I did have the realization that part of the reason I was living in my joggers is that none of my other pants fit. It was time for a size up. I don’t know why I didn’t put it together more quickly. I put jeans on to get dressed up, as discussed they are formal wear for me now. And was like, oh, they just don’t fit. That’s the problem. They just got too tight. Which happens! Because bodies change. It’s all good. And even my Universal Standard Ponte pants I just ordered in the next size up because they had also gotten too tight and those are a very stretchy pant. I just need a bigger size. CorinneIt’s helpful to have a little stretchy, soft pant phase while you’re figuring it out. VirginiaI think if I noticed it more quickly, I would have just bought more jeans real quickly. I wasn’t in denial necessarily, but sometimes you don’t notice and it was nice having the soft pants and not having to think about it, I guess. I have compassion and grace for myself as I size up and look forward to my pants no longer cutting into my internal organs. I think I’m going to love that for me. CorinneI love that for you as well. VirginiaOne last pants update is because the snow pants recs are still coming in. I got some secondhand Eddie Bauer 2X snowpants off SellTradePlus. The seller sent them so quickly. So my snow pants needs are met. I haven’t had a chance to fully test them because we haven’t had that kind of snow again. But for $65 versus the $400 pair I was close to impulse purchasing? And they’re a very pretty emerald green.CorinneAwesome. That’s so great.VirginiaShould we get into books? I’m excited to do a books episode. What’s your first book for us, Corinne?CorinneThe first book I want to talk about is Sewing the Curve: Learn How to Sew Clothes to Boost Your Wardrobe and Your Confidence by Jenny Rushmore who runs the website Cashmerette. She’s one of the original fat sewing bloggers. And this book is really cool. It’s just a great guide if you’re getting started sewing plus size patterns. It covers tons of basics like tools, choosing the right pattern, how to measure yourself for sizing, troubleshooting sewing machines, grading between sizes if you want to make a dress but you’re one size on top and one size on the bottom. There’s also some really cool stuff that I haven’t seen elsewhere, like a little section on sewing with chronic illness or disability and how to go about that in a way that is less taxing on your body, which I thought was cool. The book also includes six printed patterns that go up to size 32.I also wanted to just like quickly mention this other thing that Jenny does, which is called MyBodyModel. It’s a website that lets you make a little custom body drawing that you can use to plan your wardrobe or see how stuff would look on you. VirginiaThat sounds fun. CorinneI know! It uses your measurements, I think, to generate a little model of yourself. And I just feel like there are probably some people in the Burnt Toast community who would find that fun.VirginiaI’m on the website right now. This looks really fun. Is the idea for planning patterns and that kind of thing?CorinneI think there are a bunch of ways you could use it. You could use it if you’re a sewist and want to think about what fabrics you want to use or what garments you want to make, or you could use it if you’re like doing some kind of wardrobe clean out and you want to put together outfits or something like that.VirginiaIt’s almost like the closet from Clueless come to life. CorinneYes, totally. VirginiaI feel like they’re missing a branding opportunity by not mentioning that, but yeah, that is super, super cool. I am never going to sew my own clothes. But I really love how many sewists we have in Burnt Toast and I love that for everybody. I did have a brief fling with sewing in high school where I made some dresses and I think I just learned that I’m a little too Type A for that hobby. My skills did not match up to my perfectionist nature. There was a mismatch.CorinneThat totally makes sense. VirginiaI took a sewing class in high school and somehow made it through but it was sometimes frustrating. Anyway. Tell us the name of the book again!CorinneIt’s called Sewing the Curve: Learn How to Sew Clothes to Boost Your Wardrobe and Your Confidence and the author is Jenny Rushmore from Cashmerette.VirginiaLove it.My first book that I’m going to talk about is The Sicilian Inheritance by Jo Piazza, friend of the show. And I cannot put it down. I considered being very behind on all of my work today so that I could finish it this morning. I started it yesterday. Jo writes excellent—I believe she’s categorized as “women’s fiction,” but she’s been on the podcast before talking about her love of writing good food in fiction. And this book takes place mostly in Sicily. You need to understand what a good food novel it is. How do I plan a trip to Sicily? It’s really good food writing. The main character, Sara is a butcher / restaurant owner who has torpedoed her life in a bunch of ways, getting a divorce and drinking too much, and losing her restaurant. Then her great aunt dies and her final request is for Sara to go to Sicily to the village their family is from and scatter her ashes. When she gets there, she also discovers that she has to solve the murder mystery of her great grandmother, which is based on a true story from Jo’s family—she’s from Sicily and there is a mystery about the death of her great grandmother. Jo has also been recording a whole podcast about this which I’m really excited to dive into. The other amazing thing about it is I love stories about unexpected pockets of radical feminism. What I mean by that is like a lot of the book is a flashback to the great grandmother’s life growing up in like the 1910s and 1920s in Sicily, and they’re in this tiny village. It’s patriarchy and the women have very few options. But then because a lot of the men started leaving Sicily to go to America because they thought they would make more money there, the women end up basically running the village because there’s like no men left to do anything. It’s this cool story of how they become self taught doctors and bakers and all these different jobs. So if you like a good mystery, if you like… I don’t know what the genre is that includes unexpected pockets or radical feminism, but if that’s something you look for in books, and really good food writing—The Sicilian Inheritance. It’s delightful.CorinneThat sounds amazing. VirginiaYep. What have you got next?CorinneThe next one I want to talk about is this book Secrets of Giants: A Journey to Uncover the True Meaning of Strength by Alyssa Ages. This is an interesting book. It’s part memoir, personal narrative, and part research. Basically, the premise is that following a miscarriage, Alyssa starts to pursue strength training more seriously, and specifically strongman training.VirginiaIs strongman different from powerlifting?CorinneYes, it’s very different. If you went to a strongman competition, people would be lifting up huge stones and lifting up these like fake metal logs and hoisting them over their heads. Yeah, it’s different and it’s very interesting. I am super interested to try it. VirginiaStay tuned for Corinne’s Stongman essay.CorinneYeah. It’s kind of an interesting story. I think a lot of Burnt Toast people would be interested. Like, okay, now she’s like not having kids anymore and kind of reclaiming her body and trying to figure out what else she can do with her body. She talks to a lot of athletes about their experiences and wrestles with ideas about femininity and weightlifting and what being “bulky” means and how women are taught that weakness is sexy and stuff like that. And then eventually, she does a strongman competition and eventually she also goes to strongman nationals. So, yeah, it’s just kind of an interesting story if you’re interested in strength training and feminism and how those things kind of fit together.VirginiaI just finished listening to Julia Turshen’s lonform essay about powerlifting that she published with Roxane Gay. It’s incredible. I really didn’t think I was interested in powerlifting. Like, I do enjoy my weekly strength training workouts with Lauren Leavell, but I don’t think I’m ever going down this rabbit hole with y’all. I just don’t need to own that many different types of shoes and a singlet and the gym vibe is not for me. And I was riveted reading. Like, it is so cool to read stories of people, especially fat folks, especially women, finding power in their bodies and finding healing through doing this. CorinneI love that essay and I was really excited to read it. I will say Alyssa is a straight size person but still just wrestling with a lot of the same stuff that we all do. VirginiaThere are some universal pieces to this.CorinneYeah, so that one is Secrets of Giants: A Journey to Uncover the True Meaning of Strength by Alyssa Ages. VirginiaOkay, I’m going to talk about a book that is already out—it came out in December—but it is On the Plus Side by Jenny L. Howe. I just had the total joy of doing one of her book launch events with her this past weekend at Split Rock Books, of course. It is such a fun, fat positive feminist romance. The premise is Everly, the heroine, gets picked for a reality TV show that’s kind of like Queer Eye meets What Not to Wear, but fat positive. And the host is sort of modeled on Nicole Byers. Like, imagine if Nicole Byers did a life coaching fat positive reality show. CorinneI would watch that. VirginiaI would absolutely watch it. Nicole, if you’re listening, talk to Jenny. Okay, so she’s doing the show and then there’s a sexy grumpy cameraman who is not fat exactly, but definitely bigger bodied. Not your typical romance hero body. And it’s just super fun and super hot.  The cool backstory on Jenny is that she has a PhD in medieval literature and she’s a college professor who teaches writing and literature and also writes these romance novels and that combination of things is really great.She was hilarious and told many good stories. I’ll quickly tell one even though I’m hoping to have her on the podcast for her next book in December, but I think she has endless funny stories. This is not a spoiler but a sex scene in the book features a washer dryer—I’ll let you use your imagination. And she told us that as it happened when she was writing the book, she and her husband purchased a new washer dryer. So she asked her aunt who is her accountant, “can I write off the washer dryer as book research?” And her aunt said, “Only if you can show that it is used 50% of the time for book research.”CorinneWow. I mean…VirginiaShe was like, I don’t know if I can commit to that much book research.CorinneThat’s incredible.VirginiaI’ll never not be laughing about that story anyway. Freelancers know we come up with all kinds of justifications for write offs. But yeah, that was a leap.CorinneSo brave to ask your aunt that!VirginiaWell, I don’t know if her aunt knew the context of how it was used, I think she was like, “there is a washer dryer in this novel.”CorinneThe aunt will be in for a shock when she reads the book. VirginiaYes. She just also had so many great things to say about how she thinks about writing fat characters, how she’s always writing against stereotypes and tropes. I already love a great romance but knowing that someone is coming at this genre with really good fat politics behind it is like all the more reason to support her work. She has a new book called How to Get a Life in Ten Dates that comes out in December. So you can go ahead and preorder that right now and we will try to have her on the pod then so we can hear more about all of that. CorinneIs that one also featuring a fat character?VirginiaShe was very clear, she will never not write fat protagonists. Her first novel had a fat female lead and the male lead she described as Ichabod Crane. Then this next one was a fat female lead and a bigger guy who was sort of self conscious about it—adorably so. Then the new one I think both characters are fat.CorinneThat’s really cool. Okay, the next book I want to talk about I am extremely excited about. It’s Mechanic Shop Femme’s Guide to Car Ownership: Uncomplicating Cars for All of Us. Hopefully some listeners are already familiar with Mechanic Shop Femme! Her Her name is Chaya and she does a lot of great Instagram and Tiktok content. But, yeah, the book is amazing. It covers everything from how to buy a car, how to find a mechanic, whether or not you should consider leasing a car. Then also just like, what maintenance you should do yourself versus taking it to a shop and how to use your car manual and how to check tire pressure—all kinds of great stuff. I can definitely see myself using this book, I can see myself giving it to other people, and I’m just very excited about it. VirginiaI am so excited to have it. Probably one of the most gendered things about my marriage was the amount of time I spent never thinking about my cars. Dan just did all the car things.CorinneTo be honest, that is a selling point of marriage for me. Honestly, I would love to have someone taking care of the car. VirginiaThere were various other house chores he did that I took on with no problem. Basically, I already kind of did that or knew what to do, and the car I’m just like, oh God, I have to think about the car. I have a lot of gender conditioning fear around it. I don’t think I’m going to be taken seriously when I talk to someone about car repairs or buying a car and I feel extremely self conscious. I had to text a friend to ask, how do I get my state inspection done? Because I have I haven’t done that. It wasn’t hard. In my case, I just went to the dealer and they did it. You can also go to a Valvoline oil change type place.CorinneChaya talks about that a bit at the beginning. She tells a story about wanting to go to test drive cars and calling to ask, can we come test drive cars and then showing up with her partner and basically being told to leave. VirginiaWomen have all this money. I don’t understand. CorinneI don’t know. But it’s a really good book. She definitely has the knowledge. Her story is also amazing. I think she aged out of the foster care system and then someone got her job at an auto repair place and she just learned all this stuff. She’s really knowledgeable and super smart. She has tons of great content on online about fat car safety and stuff like that. This book is definitely just a great resource.VirginiaAnd it comes out in April. So I’m going to say please, please, please preorder it because this is the kind of book we want to do really well. This is such a phenomenal resource and it’s a way to support a fat author working in a space where it is very cis white male dominated. So even if you are like, I’m not that interested in my car, I have a husband who handles the cars, order this book. As I was looking through it, I was like, it’s not actually that hard. It’s that I was told I couldn’t do it. Let’s not let that be a reason we don’t understand things. This is a great resource to help us get over that fear and figure this stuff out. CorinneTotally. I just I think it would be such a great gift for someone graduating.VirginiaOr getting divorced! It’s a great divorce gift. I’m going to buy it for all my friends.CorinneMaybe you can give it along with This American Ex-Wife.VirginiaYes! Which we’re going to talk about next. You’re going to want your divorce gift package to include Chaya’s book and then the next book you’re going to want to put in it is This American Ex-Wife: How I Ended My Marriage and Started My Life by Lyz Lenz. It is just a real powerhouse of a book. lyz is also doing a podcast by the same name, which is hilarious and a must listen.I also want to be clear, this isn’t divorce conversion therapy. You can stay married and do all of this. You can be not partnered at all and get a lot of these books. What Lyz is doing in This American Ex-Wife is going through the history of the institution of marriage to show how it was designed as a way to make women into property to control women’s ability to own a car, forget talking to the mechanic about your car, but own your own car, own your own property, have your own credit cards. All of these things that marriage was set up to prevent women from doing. She’s very clear that within this bad system, there are partnerships that defy this, but it’s still a bad system. It’s not surprising that it fails as many people as it does. It really opened my eyes and it helped me understand more about the structural pieces of it and how that had shown up in my own life in ways I hadn’t really grappled with. I mean it for sure convinces me I will not be repeating that process of marriage ever again.CorinneNever say never! VirginiaNot without a good prenup, let me put it that way. What I think is also important to know about it is it’s really hopeful. I mean, I get it. If you’re married and you’re reading this book in your living room, I think it’s a similar to a concern we had about Fat Talk, which was like will parents want to read a book called Fat Talk in their house where their kid might pick up the book? Are people going to be afraid? I mean, her cover has a burning wedding dress on it. Are people afraid to admit they want to be a part of this conversation? To which I say, you do want to be a part of the conversation. There are so many books right now that talk about mom rage or talk about structural forces against women, and we always hear that conversation through the lens of like, well, then how do you ask your partner to help more? How do you make your life better while staying within the same system? I think it’s really helpful to hear you don’t need to be a part of that system, that there is actually another way to do this that’s much happier and much more liberating and it’s not about staying in some angry “I-hate-men” space for the rest of your life. You can just opt out of that. That’s what her book really helped me think through and I found it super helpful.CorinneThat makes sense. I’m really excited to read that one.VirginiaDid you have another one? CorinneI just wanted to quickly shout out two books that I’m excited to read, which are not books that anyone sent to me, but just books that are coming out this spring that I’m looking forward to? The first one is The Hunter by Tana French. Do you read her stuff? VirginiaYes, I like her. CorinneI feel like I’ve been waiting for a year for her to put out another book so I’m just super excited for that one. This one is a sequel to The Searcher, which was a story about an ex-cop living in Ireland. It’s not part of the Dublin Murder Squad thing. Maybe that series is over, I don’t know. VirginiaOne thing I will say about Tana French is I read them and then I’m always like, did I read that one? The titles are too similar and the covers are all white with a tree on them. I would like some more distinction between.CorinneThat’s a great point. Most of the books of hers that I’ve read, I’ve listened to. They always have really good Irish readers and there’s a lot of descriptive language where you can just kind of listen and zone out a little bit. It’s a great audio book. Then the other one I am excited about is Anita de Monte Laughs Last by Xochitl Gonzalez. She wrote the book Olga Dies Dreaming which I really liked. I’m excited for this one. VirginiaShe’s a really beautiful writer. Another one, I am excited to read that I have not read yet—I’m still on divorce. I didn’t intend this to be a divorce episode.CorinneThat’s fine, we all have our interests. VirginiaWe have our hobbies. But Sara Peterson just read Splinters which is the new Leslie Jamison which comes out February 20th. And like, Sara is an effusive texter most of the time, I will say with love, but the texts I was getting as she was reading this book was like epiphany after epiphany. She really went on a journey and she was like, please read it. And I was like, well, I didn’t get sent an advanced copy, Sara, so I have to wait. But I have pre ordered it, so I’m very excited to read it. I think it is about Leslie—I’m assuming from the title Splinters—exploding her life in various ways. So I’m looking forward to diving into that as well. CorinneThat sounds cool. VirginiaAnd then there is this trio of books that I have sitting in my TBR cart, because I get so many books and they sit on the to be read cart and I do work through it. But more books come in and the cart will never be emptied. And there has been this trio of books sitting on the cart that I’m so interested in, and they are all about religion and two of them are the intersection of religion and diet culture and anti-fatness.And so this one is We of Little Faith: Why I Stopped Pretending to Believe (and Maybe You Should Too) by Kate Cohen, who is a really phenomenal Washington Post journalist and has done a lot of great work. It’s an impassioned atheist’s rallying cry to inspire non-believers to be honest with themselves and their families about their true beliefs and in doing so change the American cultural conversation. I’m extremely interested to read that because I was raised atheist and being raised atheist in the 80s was a little bit of a stigmatizing identity, to be honest with you. So I am just curious to get into that. Then on the religion side, Fat Church: Claiming a Gospel of Fat Liberation by Anastasia Kidd. This critiques anti-fat prejudice and the church’s historic participation in it, calling for a reckoning with fatphobia for the sake of God’s gospel of freedom. She’s ordained in the United Church of Christ. And it’s blurbed by Christyna Johnson, who I love and Amanda Martinez Beck who’s also really wonderful. I don’t think we talk about religion very often in the space because I don’t have one so I don’t feel like it’s my work. Like, I don’t feel like I’m useful in that conversation. But I really appreciate that people are interrogating this. CorinneThat sounds fascinating. VirginiaOkay, and then the last one is called Feed Yourself: Step Away from the Lies of Diet Culture and Into Your Divine Design by Leslie Schilling. Leslie is an anti-diet dietitian. I’ve known for years and years and years, interviewed her for all sorts of stories. She really knows her stuff. She is a straight sized dietitian, but she’s someone who’s done quite a lot of work centering anti-fatness in her work. This is her interrogating the church and the messages she’s gotten from the church around bodies. So I think Fat Church is maybe more of an exploration of the issues and Leslie’s book is more prescriptive advice on how, if you’re staying in the church, how to navigate the messages you’re getting, how to rethink, how to think differently about your relationship with food, all of that kind of stuff. I’m really interested in all three of those.---ButterCorinneLet’s do butter. Do you want to go first?VirginiaI’m very excited about my butter. VirginiaMy butter this month is my grumpy little walks. I have to give credit to a Burnt Toast person and I searched for the comment and I couldn’t find it. But in one of our threads many months ago about exercise, someone referred to their running habit as “grumpy little runs,” and it really just stuck in my head as a delightful way of describing how I feel about exercise which is I usually don’t want to do it. Like, I’m sorry, but I just am never going to be someone who is like you know what I think would feel so good right now is to go move my body. I am a body at rest who stays at rest. I’m not a body who wants to be in motion.CorinneI like that name in contrast to hot girl walks. I’m very much more on the grumpy little walk spectrum.VirginiaNo, there is no hot girl walk. Today I went out in baggy sweatpants, snow boots, a very dirty light pink fleece and that neon pink beanie. Because in my neighborhood it is stick season, everything is all one color. So you really have to stand out so you don’t get hit by a car. And then with Penelope, and I’m just like stomping along, muttering about how I don’t want to do this. It’s not hot girl walk. It’s an annoying fact of life that actually getting outside and moving your body a little makes you happier. But it doesn’t mean you have to feel that way before you go. You don’t need to be excited about it. You can just be doing it. And then I come back more cheerful and ready to do work and it’s nice. But yeah, I’m doing grumpy little walks.CorinneI love that.VirginiaI mostly walk Penelope, my Bernadoodle. She goes to doggy daycare three days a week that my neighbor does up the mountain. For people who don’t know, I live on a small but decent by East Coast standards little mountain. It’s a very woodsy neighborhood and so I don’t have like sidewalks to walk on. So the other reason I’m grumpy is every time I go for a walk, there are hills. I have no flat walking option, immediately leaving my house. I’m uphill the second I leave my driveway. So, I’m very grumpy. When there’ is not snow and ice on the ground, I walk in the woods. And when there is snow and ice in the ground, because I am terrified of falling and dying in the woods, I walk on the road. I walk Penelope over to doggy daycare and then walk back and it’s great.CorinneThat’s cool. I could very well call my workouts grumpy little workouts because I usually feel grumpy about going to the gym.VirginiaIt’s okay to just be like, I’m just never going to like that part of going. I’m going to be glad I went. I might even start to enjoy it while I’m there. But I’m never going to want to go. And just giving myself permission to feel that way.CorinneWell, my butter is of a very different flavor. But I want to recommend a TV show, which has actually been recommended before on this podcast before. The TV show is Sort Of on HBO. It was originally recommended by Debra Benfield who came on Burnt Toast to talk about ageism. It’s an incredible show and I had kind of forgotten about it. Then a friend was talking about it and I realized there was a new season I hadn’t seen. So I feel like for some reason HBO is refusing to advertise this because I had already watched two seasons. Like, tell me if there’s a new show that I watched that I’m going to want to keep watching! S I’m hoping this one is on people’s radar. It’s about a nonbinary person of color living in Canada. It’s just a great show. It’s thoughtful and beautiful. It’s just great. And I’m now excited that there’s another season to watch that I didn’t know about. VirginiaAnd I meant to get into that when Deb recommended it and I got distracted and I’m so glad you reminded me because I’m going to get into it now.CorinneYeah, it’s really good. I hope you like it. VirginiaI just finished working moms, which I recommend but with less full throated endorsement, and I need a new show. So I’m ready. As an extra special bonus for paid subscribers, we asked some of the authors we talked about today to send us their butters, so enjoy these extra recs!“I have been making a lot of cannoli lately. A lot of cannoli. My new novel, The Sicilian Inheritance is coming out on April 2 and it is a book that is filled with delicious Sicilian food. In particular, a lot of cannoli. So I’ve been eating my way through Philadelphia’s cannoli scene. I literally like ride my bike through Philly buying cannolis at every place that sells cannolis. The best cannoli by far in Philly, is Isgro’s cannoli. They’re so good. And they have an at home cannoli kit that you can buy on their website. I’ve been making cannoli with my kids because I deliver them to people when I give them early copies of The Sicilian Inheritance. My kids are now as obsessed with cannoli as I am and all I want to do is teach my kids to love food as much as I do. So, this brings me intense joy. My butter is actually ricotta because I’m filling at least one hundred cannoli shells with ricotta a week, at this point. This kit is so much fun at birthday parties, but also for just an at home thing to do with your kids on a rainy day. Isgro’s at home cannoli kit. So fun, so tasty, so delicious. I think you’re going to love it.”—Jo Piazza, author of The Sicilian Inheritance“My butter is Evelyn and Bobbie wireless bras. So, forever I’ve had enormous boobs. I am a UK 38H, which I believe is a 38K in the US. I’ve never been able to find a non wired bra or bralette that I like that gave me the support I wanted and the shape I wanted. And it’s also the kind of thing that’s actually pretty hard to sew. But I finally came across Evelyn and Bobbie bras, and they are unbelievably good. They have patented some kind of engineered fabric—it’s the kind of thing you can’t sew, which is why I can’t do it myself. And they provide unparalleled amazing support and shape. I’ve basically been living in them ever since I discovered them. My favorites are the Beyond Bra that have adjustable straps and a hook and eye at the back. But also recently I’ve been wearing the Defy one, which is one that you just pull over your head. It has really wide straps, which is very nice if you get sore shoulders. They are also pretty great on the sizing front. They go to a 3XL, but for perspective as a 38K US, I am between an XL and a 2XL. And it looks like they reckon the 3XL goes up to about a 50 band. So if you have big boobs and you’re in the market for a non underwire bra, but you actually want support, I would highly recommend checking them out.”—Jenny Rushmore, author of Sewing the Curve“My butter this week is CTOAN’s fat art. My wife owns CTOAN and she makes these glorious little fat body sculptures that are truly functional art. They bring me so much joy and you’ll just have to check them out.”—Chaya Milchtein, author of Mechanic Shop Femme’s Guide to Car Ownership---Order any of Book Gospel title from Split Rock Books before the end of March and take 10% off with the code “bookgospel”---The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith (follow me on Instagram) and Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, an Instagram account where you can buy and sell plus size clothing.The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.Our theme music is by Jeff Bailey and Chris Maxwell.Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!---1 - In the weeks since we recorded, Universal Standard has been running a HUGE sale and almost all of this style is sold out! Hopefully they will be back in stock soon! If not, check Poshmark, Ebay, or the Universal Standard B/S/T Facebook Group.2 - They have since arrived, you can see Corinne trying them on here.