
The Burnt Toast Podcast [PREVIEW] "Like Hand Soap In Your Fruit Juice"
Welcome to Indulgence Gospel After Dark!
š§š§š§Itās time for your July Extra Butter! Today we are discussing the intersection of sobriety and diet cultureāand taste testing a whole bunch of mocktails! š¹š¹š§
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Extra Butter Episode 5 Transcript
Corinne
Today we are doing something really exciting: Weāre going to try some non-alcoholic beverages! And, weāre going to talk a little bit about sobriety and sobriety culture, as two non-sober people.
Virginia
This idea came about because we did an Indulgence Gospel episode a few months ago where someone asked for our favorite non-alcoholic beverages. We were both like, āseltzer water?ā But everyone in the comments started suggesting really good stuff. We were like, āWe need to try a bunch more of these.ā So thatās the fun part where weāre going to be taste testingāand linking everything, of course.
Weāre also really interested in how sobriety culture intersects with diet culture, so weāre going to talk about that quite a bit, too. I want to be very, very clear right off the top: We are pro-sobriety, whether you need it, whether you just want it. We think sobriety is awesome. But we do think thereās a conversation to be had about the marketing and messaging in this space, which can veer into diet culture territory fast. So thatās the focus today.
Okay, are we ready to try our first one?
Corinne
Just to set the scene, we each have a little lineup of four tiny cans in front of us.
Virginia
All the cans are so freaking cute.
Corinne
Non-alcoholic beverage marketing is doing a good job. I mean, as we knew, because I was dying to try these.
Virginia
You have been influenced.
Corinne
I have definitely been influenced.
First up is Ghia Le Spritz, ginger flavor.
Virginia
Are you drinking from the can or a cup?
Corinne
Oh, I was gonna drink from the can.
Virginia
I donāt like drinking from cans because I got really scarred by some Dateline episode or something about like, how rats poop on the top of cans. Anyways!
Corinne
Wow. Well, Iāll be drinking from the rat poop hole.
Virginia
Maybe we should have covered that off mic? Anyway. I have a little tumbler.
Corinne
That looks very nice.
Virginia
Itās a pretty color.
Corinne
Oh, itās a really pretty color. Itās like orangey pink.
Virginia
The tumbler is helpful because we can see the color. Alright, cheers!
[Everyone drinks.]
Weāre making some faces.
Corinne
Itās surprisinglyā¦bitter, maybe?
Virginia
Yeah, itāsā¦sour? Itās a little sour.
Corinne
It tastes like itās going to be a really spicy ginger beer, but it doesnāt have the spicy. I was like, āIs this going to make me cough?ā
Virginia
I think I like it. But does it feel more like a winter mocktail?
Corinne
I think this feels too ginger ale-y to me.
Virginia
Itās very ginger ale.
Corinne
Yeah, I like ginger ale. But is it better than ginger ale?
Virginia
It feels like one of those fancy ginger ales. This is not Canada Dry, which is my preferred ginger ale. I like a basic airplane ginger ale.
Corinne
Itās almost like if you crossed ginger ale with Campari or something?
Virginia
Oh, thatās what it is. Yes! Itās bitter/sour. I donāt know if Iād get through a whole can of this one. But if you like a Campari or Negroni type situation, I could see this being satisfying to you. It just doesnāt feel refreshing,
Corinne
I feel like the thing that I always miss, the thing thatās always missing from non-alcoholic drinks isā
Virginia
Alcohol?
Corinne
Yes. Mmmhmm. Thatās what I was going say.
But you know how alcohol kind of burns? I feel like theyāre trying to get that with the spicy ginger flavor, but itās not the same.
Virginia
Yes, youāre right. Youāre right.
Corinne
I feel like a lot of non-alcoholic stuff Iāve tried, itās just kind of too sweet.
Virginia
Well, this oneās not sweet.
Corinne
Itās definitely not too sweet.
Virginia
Do we want to talk a little bit about why mocktails are such big business right now?
Corinne
It seems like a lot of this is being driven by like Gen Z.
Virginia
Yes. Apparently Gen Z doesnāt drink. One of the statistics we found was that Gen Z folks drink 20 percent less than millennials. [VSS Note: Correcting because I accidentally said 40% in the recording!] I mean, caveat, that was a marketing survey. And, as I was saying off mic, I think theyāre just high a lot of the time? I think legalization has changed the game. I donāt think that itās that Gen Z is like āno inebriation for me,ā but alcohol is less their game.
Corinne
I also feel like since the pandemic, a lot of people have cut back on drinking. And I donāt know if thatās just like people are going to bars less or everyone just reevaluated their lives.
Virginia
I was chatting about this on a text thread that included who lives in the Pacific Northwest, who lives in Iowa, me in New York, and who lives in central Pennsylvania and who is in California, in New Hampshire. So we were covering many parts of the country. And I asked, āWhat do you guys think about drinking culture where you are?ā
And we were all experiencing totally different drinking norms. Ann Helen said that in Pacific Northwest for sure there has been this like āif you didnāt get sober during COVID what did you do wrongā kind of thing. With almost a little bit of moral judgment around it. Like, everybody got sober. And Lyz was like, āYeah, in Iowa, weāre still fully drinking.ā
Corinne
Thatās funny.
Virginia
And Amy said that in Central PA, thereās like no cannabis? Weed moms are not a thing in her circles. Whereas in New York, I can definitely say there are a lot of weed moms and just in general, a lot of pot now. So itās fascinating. I think there are these little micro pockets of norms and cultures around this. Like, are people getting fully sober or are people switching substances?
But the upshot is the alcohol business is kind of in trouble. Because of both the rise of sobriety and I think the rise of weed and cannabis. So there are all these interesting articles about how the alcohol business is trying to figure out how to get Gen Z to care about them and what to do about mocktails? Weāre in an interesting moment, I think.
Corinne
Yeah, I would definitely say in my community here in New Mexico, which is people in their 30s, but probably mostly people that donāt have kids. Or some people with young kids, definitely fewer people are drinking. I feel like itās noticeable.
Virginia
Thatās interesting, because my pre-kids social life was very drinking heavy.
Corinne
Weāll still go to breweries and stuff, but I also feel like itās pretty normal for at least a few people to not be drinking. I should also say that I live in a high altitude place where drinking is actually just WAY less fun, because you pretty immediately feel horrible.
Virginia
We are also seeing a lot of celebrities getting sober. I love how Anne Hathaway just casually dropped into an interview with Vanity Fair, like, oh, yeah, Iāve been sober for four years now. So itās less of a headline story. Itās not like Courtney Love or Matthew Perry or something. Itās just like, more millennial and Gen Z celebrities are like, yeah, this is not for me. And I think thatās pretty great. I love the normalizing of that.
Corinne
I think thatās a good way of putting it. Like it has just become a lot more normal to not drink.
Virginia
Yeah. Although, who has written a lot about her sobriety and was also on this group chat discussing drinking norms was like, āIf youāre actually getting sober, you feel the stigma.ā
Corinne
Thatās fair.
Virginia
So I want to hold space for how the recovery journey is different from the recreational sobriety journey.
Corinne
Even recreationally, if youāre with a group of people who are drinking and youāre not, itās not always the most fun.
Virginia
I was designated driver for a group of friends who went out to dinner this past weekend, in part because I was like, āGreat, I actually donāt want to drink tonight.ā And thankfully, there were agua frescas at the taco bar we went to, but I was glad this was not a group of friends that goes hard when we go out because I was like, āI donāt want to be back in college taking care of people.ā
Corinne
Drunk people can be really annoying.
Virginia
Iām just driving my Subaru to the taco bar now.
Alright, What are we trying next?
Corinne
So our next one is Figlia Fiore Frizzante.
[Cans crack open.]
Virginia
That one sprayed me a little bit!
Corinne
I do not like the smell. It smells veryā
Virginia
Grandma perfume?
Corinne
Bath and Body Works. I guess it is the rose?
Virginia
But is this going to be a good rosƩ substitute? Because I do like a rosƩ.
Corinne
Oh god. It tastes like you spilled hand soap in your fruit juice.
Virginia
You captured it perfectly. That is exactly what it tastes like.
Corinne
Or your body wash.
Virginia
I mean, I hope these get better. Iām a little underwhelmed by our first two! And I think I accidentally bought an eight pack of this!
Oh, this oneās really bad.
Corinne
This one is definitely less bitter.
Virginia
The Figlia is not as bitter as the Ghia, but the Figlia is much more soapy. Itās not great.
Corinne
I feel like Iām getting less of the soapy-ness now? You really smell it but you taste it less as you keep drinking.
Virginia
I donāt want to keep drinking. Donāt make me keep drinking it.
Corinne
I wouldnāt freely choose this.
Virginia
I would have to be forced.
Corinne
I would have to be on a desert island with only this for hydration.
Virginia
Should we talk a little bit about our own relationships to alcohol and drinking?
Corinne
Whatās your current drinking status?
Virginia
I have never been a big drinker. I did not drink until I was 20 because I was just really afraid of getting in trouble. You know, classic oldest daughter good girl stuff. I was just like, āItās fine. I am the sober friend!ā
I did party more in my 20s, for sure. Because we lived in New York City and in a very party heavy sort of social circle. But itās never really been my thing. I am also very migraine prone and would get hangovers easily.
Itās also worth noting, my ex was six years sober when we split up. And Iām very proud of him for that. And that meant I was de facto sober for the last six years of our marriage. Because it was a no brainer to me. If it wasnāt good for him to be around alcohol, we didnāt have to have it in the house.
And that was a shift! I think I used to have a glass of wine with dinner most nights, just out of habit. And then I went to basically nothing, or maybe like, twice a year have one drink. And day to day, I didnāt miss it really at all.
Then once he left, I was like, āWell maybe it would be nice to have a glass of wine with dinner again?ā or have it back in the house. And now what Iāve learned is that one glass of wine will give me a migraine in the next day. My tolerance is just non-existent.
If I hydrate like mad all day long, you know, fill up my giant water bottle and get through at least three of them, I will be okay. But I donāt need drinking mental load! Who wants to think about hydration all day long just so you can have three sips of Chardonnay? So I will have a half glass of wine maybe like twice a month and then always be like, oh right.
What about you?
Corinne
I was definitely more of a recreational drinker as a young person. Like in my 20s and stuff. And I did briefly work in the restaurant hospitality industry where I did a lot of drinking. When I moved to New Mexico, it was a good chance for me to reevaluate. When I first got here, I still drank like a bit from time to time. And then as Iāve gotten older, as my body has changed, Iām just pretty unable to drink. I will also get a migraine after just one or two drinks.
Virginia
It is wild, and frankly annoying, because I do like the taste of wine and I would like to just enjoy a glass of wine. But I donāt like it that much.
Corinne
Iāve also dated a lot of people who are sober. And I think that has actually made me realize that in some ways, I like dating people who are sober because dating someone who is not sober can be really annoying if you donāt drink a lot.
Virginia
Because you will end up being designated driver.
Corinne
Or just, like, drunk people are annoying! I feel similarly about weed sometimes. Like, itās great. And I donāt necessarily want to hang out with high people? I probably drink like maybe once a month. Iāll have one unit of alcohol.
Virginia
And what do you usually drink when you do drink?
Corinne
I would probably go for a cocktail because I find those most delicious. There is a bar here that has an alcoholic slushy drink that I got really into last summer. But yeah, one or two and youāre like, uh oh.
Virginia
This is reminding me that I havenāt had a cocktail in a long time and Iām kind of curious to see if I get the same extreme reaction with a cocktail? Like is it the wine or is the alcohol? I donāt really know. I mean, in my youth, I had some bad experiences with various hard liquor, so I donāt tend to go to them. But maybe a very watered down Mojito would be fine? Maybe two sips of a mojito would be fine.
Corinne
Iāve definitely found that I react to all of it. It all makes me feel bad. But I like drinking cocktails the most.
Virginia
Thatās where youāre willing to roll the dice. When I was in more of a diet culture place with my migraines in my 20s I had really convinced myself they were caused by red wine. But I think that was mostly because that was the thing I could most bear to give up.
Alright, should we try another one?
Iām excited for this one since we were just talking about mojitos. Mojitos are my favorite cocktail. And since I probably cannot drink a whole mojito without feeling like death the next day, I would love to find a mocktail mojito.
Corinne
Next up is Ish. The mindful drinking company. Non- alcoholic pre mixed cocktail Mojito.
Virginia
All right. Letās try it.
[Cans open.]
Corinne
This one weirdly smells like alcohol to me.
Virginia
Oh it does. They faked it well! Iām excited for this one.
Corinne
Whoa.
Virginia
Oh, I like this one. You donāt?
Corinne
Iām getting my bearings. It has a real alcohol feel. Like it has rum flavoring or something.
Virginia
Yes, this feels decadent for us to be drinking on a Monday.
Corinne
Yeah, itās not even noon.
Virginia
Iām looking at the label to make sure.
Corinne
It says less than 0.5 ABV. So what does that mean? Do the other ones say that?
Virginia
That is the thing about a lot of non-alcoholic drinks is they sometimes do have a trace amount.
Corinne
I thought that was just non-alcoholic beer.
Virginia
I donāt know if itās because they put in a little sprinkling of something in? Or if itās because things are fermented and so you might be getting a little bit?
Well, this one I really like and I would totally buy this again and have on hand so I can have a mojito in the summer, hopefully without a migraine.
I feel like your experience is being impacted by the can. Because I do really want to have this in a glass with a lot of ice and fresh mint.
Corinne
Yeah, I think these would all be good with ice. I feel like this could use a few more squeezes of lime. Itās a little bit sweet.
Virginia
I could use this as a base and doctor it up into a really nice summer drink. I would not drink this straight from a can but you wouldnāt drink a mojito from a can. Thatās not correct.
Corinne
It has like an alcohol-like flavor.
Virginia
The other two just felt like experimental sodas. This one feels like I could believe this is a cocktail.
Corinne
Should we talk about diet culture and alcohol?
Virginia
We should because these labels are a lot. If we go back to Figliaāthe one that tastes like bad soapāon the label, you will see it is āwoman owned,ā ā1% for the planet,ā and thenā āno added sugarā is right up there.
Corinne
Fascinating.
Virginia
What you will see with a lot of mocktail marketing is a big emphasis on these drinks being lower calorie and lower sugar. I donāt think the other ones we bought are too egregious on this front, but it is definitely a recurring theme.
Corinne
Well, yeah. And the big non-alcoholic beer brand Athletic Brewing is sort of named that becauseā
Virginia
Because of Athletic Greens is my theory!
Corinne
Theyāre like, āWe like to do athletic activities.ā
Virginia
Itās the man mocktail. Youāre going on a long run and then you want to crack a cold one so you can have an Athletic Brew.
Their marketing feels very āmale wellness cultureā to me in a lot of ways. And of course it may be accidental, but in terms of the impact in the market, youāre so used to hearing Athletic Greens marketing, and then here comes Athletic Brewingāyouāre going to conflate the two.
We also talked about this on the Substack Chat, andd there were some really interesting comments.
Corinne
Itās super fun. Itās like basically having a little group text.
Virginia
So weāve been having little conversations about any random thoughts that we have. I know itās annoying to download another app, but itās a pretty good, harmless app.
Get more from Virginia Sole-Smith in the Substack app
Available for iOS and Android
Corinne
I actually really like that app. I think if you subscribe to even just one Substack newsletter, itās worth having the app.
Virginia
You can then delete them from your inbox and enjoy reading them in the app and itās a much more leisurely reading experience, I feel.
Corinne
Yeah. And itās easier to comment.
Virginia
Okay, that was a sidebar plug for Substack Chat and the Substack app!
But in the chat, I asked folks for thoughts about all of this. One person wrote:
āI keep getting ads for pot gummies and drops because āI shouldnāt waste calories on wine.ā I like wine and never think about its calories so these ads really surprised me.ā
Thatās weird for people to be like, āletās emphasize the calorie difference.ā Because thereās the thing about pot where it makes you want to snack? So itās probably going to be a wash, which is fine. But thatās a weird thing to lean into.
Corinne
Totally. Thereās a whole thing where itās like, you shouldnāt waste calories on alcohol. And then the whole thing of skipping meals so you can drink.
Virginia
Yes, saving your points. In college, my friends on Weight Watchers used to save their points all day so they could go out drinking at night. Which meant that they were starving when they went out drinking. It was a real solid plan. Just, no downsides there.
Someone else said they subscribe to the sunnyside app, which is one of those encouraging you to drink less tracking apps. And the app tracked how many calories you were not consuming by not drinking alcohol. That just feels like such an annoying way to approach this as a project. Especially because if you were truly getting sober, because you have a problem with alcohol, you need space to have other things in your life to replace that craving. And for a lot of folks, that ends up being sugar for a while. And thatās a very healthy switch to make, because you will not crash a car eating sugar.
Corinne
And alcohol actually is poison, unlike sugar.
Virginia
As my brain reminds me every time I have two sips. So for lots of folks getting sober will coincide with gaining weight or changing eating habits. And thatās going to be tricky enough in diet culture. But if youāre also thinking well, part of my motivation for getting sober or one perk should be that Iām consuming less calories and Iāll lose weightā¦.that can really jeopardize someoneās recovery.
Corinne
I have anecdotally known people who have lost or gained weight becoming sober.
Virginia
It can definitely go either way.
Corinne
But I canāt imagine wanting to get sober and having that coincide with weight gain, and then diet culture sending you back.
Virginia
Right? Thatās scary. Someone else wrote:
āI have noticed in certain circles of mine, there has been a morality tone to sobriety similar to that of diet culture. Iām all for further acceptance of sober life in general. I think thatād be good for us as a whole. Thereās just a tone I canāt quite put my finger on that feels a little disingenuous.ā
Have you noticed this? What are your thoughts?
Corinne
I feel like most of the sober people I know are not sober for morality reasons, so Iām not sure?
Virginia
I kind of know what theyāre getting at? Alcohol is often included on the list of things you cut out if youāre doing some kind of cleanse or diet. If you do Whole30 or Paleo or something.
And it just gets messy because youāre removing too many variables, right? Youāre not actually getting any useful data on your relationship with alcohol because youāve cut all this other stuff, too. And often youāre doing it all for a weight loss component so there are these weird tangled knots. This is where I would say where sobriety gets coopted by diet culture, or gets sort of subsumed by it, and becomes another tenet of diet and wellness culture.
Corinne
I think thereās kind of a myth or an idea that people who have gone through recovery have some sort of emotional maturity, which I think is both true and not true. Some people have, some people havenāt.
Virginia
There are a lot of different versions of this.
Corinne
Yeah, I could see that being a morality thing.
Virginia
It depends on why youāre getting sober, but also how youāre getting sober. If you talk to anyone doing real recovery work, they will tell you that not drinking is not the whole ballgame. Going to meetings, the support, the doing really intensive therapy, and really dealing with yourself in a new way, that is arguably the bigger piece of the whole thing
This is from my cousin , who writes the Substack about mental health and living with chronic illness. Itās a new Substack, itās really good. Kate is also in long term recovery from eating disorders. And they wrote:
āA lot of people move from alcoholism to eating disorders, and vice versa, because they are stored in the same part of the brain. So dismantling diet culture in recovery spaces and everywhere is super important. Plus in treatment spaces, weight loss as a benefit to not drinking is mentioned a lot, as healthy eating and avoiding bad foods.ā
So that is super depressing for this weight loss language to be being used in formal treatment programs for substance use disorder.
Corinne
Totally. Yeah, using diet culture as a tool to keep people sober.
Virginia
And especially as theyāre saying, because there is a lot of overlap between eating disorders and alcoholism. This is also why a lot of the research following folks post-bariatric surgery documents that an increased risk for substance use disorders post-surgery, because the surgery changed how they can engage with food, but didnāt give them any support for the underlying mental and emotional and psychosocial stuff. And then theyāre vulnerable for this other kind of substance abuse. Itās messy.
Corinne
Itās complicated.
Virginia
On that note, we have another mocktail.
Corinne
This is the one Iām most excited about.
Virginia
You saved the best for last.
Corinne
This is the brand is called Parch. This is a non-alcoholic Agave cocktail. Itās a spiced PiƱa Rita.
Virginia
So like a piƱa colada and a margarita?
Corinne
I think like a pineapple margarita? And the itās infused with botanicals and adaptogens.
Virginia
Wellness culture!!
Did you see on the back thereās a note about āpour behavior?ā So weāre drinking it wrong because it says āpour slowly over ice and garnish with a dried orange wheel or sip straight from a chilled can.ā It isalso gluten free and vegan. This marketing is pretty, pretty diet culture-y.
Corinne
This one smells spicy. Iām nervous. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh God. Itās so smoky! Why is it smoky? It literally tastes like bacon! Itās salty and smoky. It doesnāt say smoky anywhere!
Virginia
Maybe itās a good breakfast mocktail?
Corinne
Breakfast?!?!
Virginia
Well, it does taste like bacon! I donāt know!
Corinne
Oh, God. Oh God. Iām so sad.
Virginia
You really had your hopes up for this.
Corinne
It just doesnāt say smoky anywhere.
Virginia
It says it on the side in tiny letters. See? It says āsmoky and spicy.ā
Corinne
Oh God. Itās horrible.
Virginia
Iām so sorry. You really wanted to like it.
Corinne
Okay, Iām trying to get over the smokiness, which has really taken me aback.
Virginia
Itās like drinking bacon. But not in a delicious way.
Corinne
Itās nuanced. Itās salty, sweet, spicy. Pineapple-y.
Virginia
Whereās the pineapple? I donāt taste any.
Corinne
When I smelled it, I thought it smells pineapple-y but it doesnāt taste it and the smokeāthe smoke is too strong. Itās overpowering.
Virginia
It was so busy telling us about the adaptogens it did not warn us enough for what we were in for. I see the ingredients are organic blue agave, golden pineapple, Mexican lime, and smoky cayenne. I would say itās mostly that last one.
Corinne
Oh. I donāt know. See after a few sips. Iām always like, āOkay, okay, fine.ā
Virginia
I canāt finish that!
Corinne
Itās really smoky though. Itās also quite salty.
Virginia
How would you eat a potato chip with that? When Iām having a mocktail, I also want a salty snack. And there would be too much salt.
I realized that we should have said this at the top, but we did purchase these with our own money. These werenāt sponsored. Clearly,
Corinne
Sadly, we have paid for all of these.
Virginia
I was trying to order in the smallest quantities possible, but I have like eight more of a lot of these.
Corinne
Yeah, I have a couple of some of them as well.
Virginia
Weāre going to have to figure out what to do.
Corinne
Would you drink any of these again?
Virginia
I would drink the mojito one.
Corinne
When I ordered the Ghia I ordered a few of the flavors and I liked some of the other flavors.
Virginia
Oh, you did? Okay.
Corinne
I think I would drink some of the Ghia.
Virginia
Iām going to keep this and just offer when people come over over the summer, when Iām hosting and people could try them. And yeah, maybe other people will feel differently. Maybe some people like drinking soap and bacon!
Corinne
I mean, the one thing Iāll say is, they do feel celebratory. Weāre judging them just on how do they taste at at noon on a Monday. But if I went somewhere and didnāt want to drink and had an option to buy one of these canned cocktails, I probably would. You know?
Virginia
Yeah. Well, I donāt think I would buy the bacon one or the soap one.
Corinne
But only now that youāve tried them.
Virginia
Itās true before I knew, I did buy them. And I also think, especially the mojito one, I could see how that could be really elevated. I mean, some of them, Iām wondering, do you just need to water them down?
Corinne
Yeah, like if you mixed this with pineapple juice, or seltzer.
Virginia
That might help. I could see the bacon one being better if it was way more subtle.
Corinne
I wonder if you poured it into a glass with ice some of the like fumes would diminish and it would taste less smoky.
Virginia
I donāt know if weāve given people good intel on how to do their mocktail shopping. Try to taste them before you buy them. This is a wide open market.
The last thing we were going to chat about is how does alcohol fit into intuitive eating?
Corinne
I think itās a complicated question. I think for someone like me, who already feels kind of alcohol averse, I do think part of what has led me to drinking hardly at all is noticing how it feels in my body when I drink, and it feels bad. So doing less of it. What do you think?
Virginia
Same. I do think when I drank more before, like when I was much younger, I couldnāt as clearly connect my headaches to drinking. Because if youāre having a glass of wine most nights and then youāre not getting a headache every day, it felt more random. But now itās like, Iāll go two to three weeks without having a drink, have one drink and then have a terrible headache the next day. Itās just very stark. And it is this useful data point that I can make a decision about.
But I want to just acknowledge some privilege here that Iām not an addict. This is not the thing that triggers my brain this way. So it felt like a very positive decision. I donāt feel remotely deprived. I mean, there will be occasions where Iām like, āIt would be nice to have a glass of wine or a taste of that.ā And then Iāll have a taste of that. But it doesnāt feel restrictive to say, āIām not going to drink.ā And again, I just want to recognize that thatās not true or simple for folks who are addicted to alcohol. So thereās a privilege that I can say that I can truly take or leave this. And Iām able to assess how it feels for me in this more dispassionate way.
But I think that is a form of intuitive eating because if you donāt feel like a food has to be off limits, you can much more clearly evaluate whether you want to be eating it or not and how it feels in your body. So yeah, I think itās related. I mean, itās true with food, too, but with alcohol in particular. I think itās such a personal one because thereās a lot of variation. There are a lot of like shades of grey in how people relate to alcohol. Itās not binary, itās not like youāre either not an alcoholic or you are an alcoholic. You can be uncomfortable with your relationship with alcohol without identifying as a full blown alcoholic and still find it challenging to give up and thereās just a lot of gray there.
Corinne
Yeah, and there are cultural components, too, like people who donāt drink for religious reasons or cultural reasons.
Virginia
Yeah, absolutely. Or if you live in a culture that is high drinking.
Corinne
Yep. Families or the hospitality industry.
Virginia
Peopleās family contexts, peopleās work. A lot of workplaces are very alcohol-oriented and then it feels harder to opt out.
Corinne
Yeah, definitely.
Virginia
One of the norms I struggled with when we were a de facto sober house was if we were having people over for dinner, not having wine to offer them felt odd to me. People in our life were super supportive. No one was ever like, āIām not coming to dinner because thereās no wine there.ā No one would do that. But I felt like Iām being a bad host somehow? Iām not offering a complete dinner experience? So I do now if Iām having people over, Iām always like, āMust have wine on hand, even if Iām not going to drink it!ā And that is sort of silly! I know, because I did it for six years, you can hang out have a great time with people without drinking. Itās not necessary. But thereās that social norm of it.
Corinne
Well, and the other thing is people bringing you alcohol. I had so much alcohol leftover from having a birthday party in January that I still have some of it. Everyone brings a six pack or whatever. And then I never drink it. So itās taking up an entire shelf of my fridge.
Virginia
And I think it would be good for us to be more thoughtful about that. I tend to not bring alcohol anywhere now, just because I feel like I donāt know everyoneās individual relationships. I no longer assume everybody wants to drink alcohol. Iāll bring flowers instead. That feels nice.
Corinne
Yeah, I do think itās like if youāre not stopping drinking because you must for addiction reasons then it is sort of like, what is the like, celebratory alternative, you know? Or like, what is the nice hostess gift alternative?
Virginia
For sure flowers. I think you can never go wrong.
Corinne
Flowers, if youāre visiting Virginia. I will take flowers too.
Virginia
I think anyone likes flowers.
Corinne
Yeah. Or like other food stuff.
Virginia
Bringing nice chocolates is good. Or a fun loaf of bread if youāre going to dinner is nice.
Corinne
Or one of these non-alcoholic cocktail cans.
Virginia
But not the bacon one. Unless youāre trying to send a message.
Butter
Corinne
I want to recommend this podcasts that I just started listening to and am addicted to called Hang Up the podcast, and itās a reality dating podcast.
Virginia
Oh, you talked about this in and I was like what is she talking about?
Corinne
So itās a queer REALITY DATING podcast. So all the dates take place over the phone and are recorded. And the latest season season two is in Albuquerque. And obviously, everyone has to change their names so that the person trying to find a date canāt google them or whatever. Each episode they have to hang up on someone or eliminate them.
And then at the end the person who gets chosen gets to either choose to go on a vacation with the person or take $1,000 So Iām really curious whatās going to happen.
Virginia
Oh my God. This is a fascinating premise, especially for a podcast. Like, theyāre not even on Zoom.
Corinne
You canāt smell the person or see how it feels in real life.
Virginia
Smell the person?
Corinne
I donāt know! Like, what is chemistry!
Virginia
If you go on a date with Corinne, you better smell good, folks.
Corinne
What Iām saying is, thereās an element to being in real life with a person that youāre not getting over the phone.
Virginia
Iām just picturing you sniffing people now.
Corinne
No, thatās not whatās going on. The first round of dates the main character person who is being set up, asks everyone this question, which I now want to ask you, which is, you choose, either your face looks 10 years older or your body looks 10 years older.
I was like, this is a terrible shallow question.
Virginia
Itās so shallow.
Corinne
But itās also very interesting. Theyāre basically asking you to choose between wrinkles on your face or saggy boobs.
Virginia
Iām going to go with body because when I did this essay on body hair, a lot of people 10 years older than me told me they lost a lot of body hair. So Iām excited for my body getting older and me being less hairy. Having less hair-related maintenance feels like a real asset.
Corinne
Interesting.
Virginia
And saggy boobs? I had two kids. That ship has sailed. We are there. You canāt scare me.
Corinne
I chose face just because itās less surface area.
Virginia
Well and you already have body hair privilege, so you donāt need to worry about that.
Corinne
Yeah. Didnāt even cross my mind.
Virginia
Alright, I definitely want to listen to this. It sounds really fun.
Corinne
Yeah, whatās your Butter?
Virginia
I feel like itās not nearly as fun as that. Itās not as spicy as a reality dating show. My Butter is I have honed in on my summer uniform, what I will be wearing all summer. I feel like every season there are those weeks where Iām like what is the weather?! How do we do this? And then I hone in.
So all last winter it was the joggers and those sweaters, that sweater jogger combo. Now, I am really on the train of sets, with a matching shirt and shorts. And I now have three sets, all from Target. Iām wearing one right now. Itās a linen, the blue linen. Very pretty, kind cornflower blue color. Matching shorts. And then I have a striped green one (sold out) and a purple paisley, which sounds bold but itās actually very cute.
I realized it just removes all the decisions of getting dressed. This is the perfect work from home outfit, the perfect run errands outfit. As we know, I donāt do anything else. That is my whole life. What I like about these is the shirts are very big and light and loose, so I can layer them over a tank top. Then if I get hot I can ditch the long sleeve shirt and just be in the tank top. But I kind of like the look of that. I feel like when the shirt is buttoned up and the fabric matches the shorts, I canāt quite shake the feeling of wearing pajamas. But unbuttoned over a tank top that works for me, styling wise.
Corinne
Are they all linen?
Virginia
Two of them are linen and then that dark green, light green striped shirt and shorts that I wore when we were in New Mexico, thatās cotton.
Corinne
Oh cool.
Virginia
I feel like the trendy shirt of the moment is a light blue and white striped button down shirt. I feel like every fashion person I follow is either shopping for this or wearing this. just did a post about it. on her newsletter was like Iām shopping for this.
Corinne
Like a striped button down?
Virginia
But specifically light blue and white is the look and then you wear it with red shorts or you wear it with jeans or you wear it with white shorts. has one so now I do kind of want a set that is light blue and white stripes. But do I need four sets? There are many days in a week.
Corinne
Yeah. Then you have one for every day almost.
Virginia
Basically it would be covering Monday to Thursday. I recommend the sets. You know we love a no decision dressing moment.
Corinne
Yeah, thatās a really good recommendation.
Virginia
The final thing of it is I hung them in my closet together with the shorts and the shirt on the same hanger, which is very nerdy. And I realize some people would break up the sets and mix and match things. But I just really love the ease of Iām just getting dressed this way. I really feel like I have capsule wardrobed the summer.
Corinne
Thatās awesome. I love it.
Virginia
All right. This was a good episode. I hope people enjoyed us tasting things they couldnāt taste and understanding that we were not enjoying it.
Corinne
Let us know if youāve tried any of these!
Virginia
Yes, weāre dying to hear. We want to hear in general about how you feel about mocktails, how you feel about drinking. How you feel like drinking fits in with your intuitive eating stuff.
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The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith (follow me on Instagram) and Corinne Fay who runs @SellTradePlus and Big Undiesāsubscribe for 20% off.
The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.
Our theme music is by Jeff Bailey and Chris Maxwell.
Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.
Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!
