[PREVIEW] "Like Hand Soap In Your Fruit Juice"

Welcome to Indulgence Gospel After Dark!

🧈🧈🧈It’s time for your July Extra Butter! Today we are discussing the intersection of sobriety and diet culture—and taste testing a whole bunch of mocktails! 🍹🍹🧈

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Extra Butter Episode 5 Transcript

Corinne

Today we are doing something really exciting: We’re going to try some non-alcoholic beverages! And, we’re going to talk a little bit about sobriety and sobriety culture, as two non-sober people.

Virginia

This idea came about because we did an Indulgence Gospel episode a few months ago where someone asked for our favorite non-alcoholic beverages. We were both like, “seltzer water?” But everyone in the comments started suggesting really good stuff. We were like, “We need to try a bunch more of these.” So that’s the fun part where we’re going to be taste testing—and linking everything, of course.  

We’re also really interested in how sobriety culture intersects with diet culture, so we’re going to talk about that quite a bit, too. I want to be very, very clear right off the top: We are pro-sobriety, whether you need it, whether you just want it. We think sobriety is awesome. But we do think there’s a conversation to be had about the marketing and messaging in this space, which can veer into diet culture territory fast. So that’s the focus today.

Okay, are we ready to try our first one? 

Corinne

Just to set the scene, we each have a little lineup of four tiny cans in front of us.

Virginia

All the cans are so freaking cute.

Corinne

Non-alcoholic beverage marketing is doing a good job. I mean, as we knew, because I was dying to try these.

Virginia

You have been influenced. 

Corinne

I have definitely been influenced. 

First up is Ghia Le Spritz, ginger flavor. 

Virginia

Are you drinking from the can or a cup?

Corinne

Oh, I was gonna drink from the can. 

Virginia

I don’t like drinking from cans because I got really scarred by some Dateline episode or something about like, how rats poop on the top of cans. Anyways!

Corinne

Wow. Well, I’ll be drinking from the rat poop hole.

Virginia

Maybe we should have covered that off mic? Anyway. I have a little tumbler.

Corinne

That looks very nice. 

Virginia

It’s a pretty color. 

Corinne

Oh, it’s a really pretty color. It’s like orangey pink.

Virginia

The tumbler is helpful because we can see the color. Alright, cheers!

[Everyone drinks.]

We’re making some faces.

Corinne

It’s surprisingly…bitter, maybe? 

Virginia

Yeah, it’s…sour? It’s a little sour.

Corinne

It tastes like it’s going to be a really spicy ginger beer, but it doesn’t have the spicy. I was like, “Is this going to make me cough?”

Virginia

I think I like it. But does it feel more like a winter mocktail?

Corinne

I think this feels too ginger ale-y to me.

Virginia

It’s very ginger ale. 

Corinne

Yeah, I like ginger ale. But is it better than ginger ale?

Virginia

It feels like one of those fancy ginger ales. This is not Canada Dry, which is my preferred ginger ale. I like a basic airplane ginger ale. 

Corinne

It’s almost like if you crossed ginger ale with Campari or something?

Virginia

Oh, that’s what it is. Yes! It’s bitter/sour. I don’t know if I’d get through a whole can of this one. But if you like a Campari or Negroni type situation, I could see this being satisfying to you. It just doesn’t feel refreshing,

Corinne

I feel like the thing that I always miss, the thing that’s always missing from non-alcoholic drinks is—

Virginia

Alcohol?

Corinne

Yes. Mmmhmm. That’s what I was going say.

But you know how alcohol kind of burns? I feel like they’re trying to get that with the spicy ginger flavor, but it’s not the same. 

Virginia

Yes, you’re right. You’re right. 

Corinne

I feel like a lot of non-alcoholic stuff I’ve tried, it’s just kind of too sweet. 

Virginia

Well, this one’s not sweet. 

Corinne

It’s definitely not too sweet.

Virginia

Do we want to talk a little bit about why mocktails are such big business right now?

Corinne

It seems like a lot of this is being driven by like Gen Z. 

Virginia

Yes. Apparently Gen Z doesn’t drink. One of the statistics we found was that Gen Z folks drink 20 percent less than millennials. [VSS Note: Correcting because I accidentally said 40% in the recording!] I mean, caveat, that was a marketing survey. And, as I was saying off mic, I think they’re just high a lot of the time? I think legalization has changed the game. I don’t think that it’s that Gen Z is like “no inebriation for me,” but alcohol is less their game.

Corinne

I also feel like since the pandemic, a lot of people have cut back on drinking. And I don’t know if that’s just like people are going to bars less or everyone just reevaluated their lives.

Virginia

I was chatting about this on a text thread that included who lives in the Pacific Northwest, who lives in Iowa, me in New York, and who lives in central Pennsylvania and who is in California, in New Hampshire. So we were covering many parts of the country. And I asked, “What do you guys think about drinking culture where you are?”

And we were all experiencing totally different drinking norms. Ann Helen said that in Pacific Northwest for sure there has been this like “if you didn’t get sober during COVID what did you do wrong” kind of thing. With almost a little bit of moral judgment around it. Like, everybody got sober. And Lyz was like, “Yeah, in Iowa, we’re still fully drinking.”

Corinne

That’s funny.

Virginia

And Amy said that in Central PA, there’s like no cannabis? Weed moms are not a thing in her circles. Whereas in New York, I can definitely say there are a lot of weed moms and just in general, a lot of pot now. So it’s fascinating. I think there are these little micro pockets of norms and cultures around this. Like, are people getting fully sober or are people switching substances? 

But the upshot is the alcohol business is kind of in trouble. Because of both the rise of sobriety and I think the rise of weed and cannabis. So there are all these interesting articles about how the alcohol business is trying to figure out how to get Gen Z to care about them and what to do about mocktails? We’re in an interesting moment, I think. 

Corinne

Yeah, I would definitely say in my community here in New Mexico, which is people in their 30s, but probably mostly people that don’t have kids. Or some people with young kids, definitely fewer people are drinking. I feel like it’s noticeable.

Virginia

That’s interesting, because my pre-kids social life was very drinking heavy.

Corinne

We’ll still go to breweries and stuff, but I also feel like it’s pretty normal for at least a few people to not be drinking. I should also say that I live in a high altitude place where drinking is actually just WAY less fun, because you pretty immediately feel horrible.

Virginia

We are also seeing a lot of celebrities getting sober. I love how Anne Hathaway just casually dropped into an interview with Vanity Fair, like, oh, yeah, I’ve been sober for four years now. So it’s less of a headline story. It’s not like Courtney Love or Matthew Perry or something. It’s just like, more millennial and Gen Z celebrities are like, yeah, this is not for me. And I think that’s pretty great. I love the normalizing of that. 

Corinne

I think that’s a good way of putting it. Like it has just become a lot more normal to not drink.

Virginia

Yeah. Although, who has written a lot about her sobriety and was also on this group chat discussing drinking norms was like, “If you’re actually getting sober, you feel the stigma.”

Corinne

That’s fair. 

Virginia

So I want to hold space for how the recovery journey is different from the recreational sobriety journey.

Corinne

Even recreationally, if you’re with a group of people who are drinking and you’re not, it’s not always the most fun.

Virginia

I was designated driver for a group of friends who went out to dinner this past weekend, in part because I was like, “Great, I actually don’t want to drink tonight.” And thankfully, there were agua frescas at the taco bar we went to, but I was glad this was not a group of friends that goes hard when we go out because I was like, “I don’t want to be back in college taking care of people.” 

Corinne

Drunk people can be really annoying.

Virginia

I’m just driving my Subaru to the taco bar now. 

Alright, What are we trying next?

Corinne

So our next one is Figlia Fiore Frizzante.

[Cans crack open.]

Virginia

That one sprayed me a little bit!

Corinne

I do not like the smell. It smells very— 

Virginia

Grandma perfume?

Corinne

Bath and Body Works. I guess it is the rose?

Virginia

But is this going to be a good rosé substitute? Because I do like a rosé.

Corinne

Oh god. It tastes like you spilled hand soap in your fruit juice. 

Virginia

You captured it perfectly. That is exactly what it tastes like.

Corinne

Or your body wash.

Virginia

I mean, I hope these get better. I’m a little underwhelmed by our first two! And I think I accidentally bought an eight pack of this! 

Oh, this one’s really bad. 

Corinne

This one is definitely less bitter.

Virginia

The Figlia is not as bitter as the Ghia, but the Figlia is much more soapy. It’s not great. 

Corinne

I feel like I’m getting less of the soapy-ness now? You really smell it but you taste it less as you keep drinking. 

Virginia

I don’t want to keep drinking. Don’t make me keep drinking it. 

Corinne

I wouldn’t freely choose this. 

Virginia

I would have to be forced. 

Corinne

I would have to be on a desert island with only this for hydration.

Virginia

Should we talk a little bit about our own relationships to alcohol and drinking?

Corinne

What’s your current drinking status?

Virginia

I have never been a big drinker. I did not drink until I was 20 because I was just really afraid of getting in trouble. You know, classic oldest daughter good girl stuff. I was just like, “It’s fine. I am the sober friend!” 

I did party more in my 20s, for sure. Because we lived in New York City and in a very party heavy sort of social circle. But it’s never really been my thing. I am also very migraine prone and would get hangovers easily. 

It’s also worth noting, my ex was six years sober when we split up. And I’m very proud of him for that. And that meant I was de facto sober for the last six years of our marriage. Because it was a no brainer to me. If it wasn’t good for him to be around alcohol, we didn’t have to have it in the house. 

And that was a shift! I think I used to have a glass of wine with dinner most nights, just out of habit. And then I went to basically nothing, or maybe like, twice a year have one drink. And day to day, I didn’t miss it really at all. 

Then once he left, I was like, “Well maybe it would be nice to have a glass of wine with dinner again?” or have it back in the house. And now what I’ve learned is that one glass of wine will give me a migraine in the next day. My tolerance is just non-existent.

If I hydrate like mad all day long, you know, fill up my giant water bottle and get through at least three of them, I will be okay. But I don’t need drinking mental load! Who wants to think about hydration all day long just so you can have three sips of Chardonnay? So I will have a half glass of wine maybe like twice a month and then always be like, oh right.

What about you? 

Corinne

I was definitely more of a recreational drinker as a young person. Like in my 20s and stuff. And I did briefly work in the restaurant hospitality industry where I did a lot of drinking. When I moved to New Mexico, it was a good chance for me to reevaluate. When I first got here, I still drank like a bit from time to time. And then as I’ve gotten older, as my body has changed, I’m just pretty unable to drink. I will also get a migraine after just one or two drinks. 

Virginia

It is wild, and frankly annoying, because I do like the taste of wine and I would like to just enjoy a glass of wine. But I don’t like it that much.

Corinne

I’ve also dated a lot of people who are sober. And I think that has actually made me realize that in some ways, I like dating people who are sober because dating someone who is not sober can be really annoying if you don’t drink a lot. 

Virginia

Because you will end up being designated driver. 

Corinne

Or just, like, drunk people are annoying! I feel similarly about weed sometimes. Like, it’s great. And I don’t necessarily want to hang out with high people? I probably drink like maybe once a month. I’ll have one unit of alcohol.

Virginia

And what do you usually drink when you do drink? 

Corinne

I would probably go for a cocktail because I find those most delicious. There is a bar here that has an alcoholic slushy drink that I got really into last summer. But yeah, one or two and you’re like, uh oh. 

Virginia

This is reminding me that I haven’t had a cocktail in a long time and I’m kind of curious to see if I get the same extreme reaction with a cocktail? Like is it the wine or is the alcohol? I don’t really know. I mean, in my youth, I had some bad experiences with various hard liquor, so I don’t tend to go to them. But maybe a very watered down Mojito would be fine? Maybe two sips of a mojito would be fine.

Corinne

I’ve definitely found that I react to all of it. It all makes me feel bad. But I like drinking cocktails the most.

Virginia

That’s where you’re willing to roll the dice. When I was in more of a diet culture place with my migraines in my 20s I had really convinced myself they were caused by red wine. But I think that was mostly because that was the thing I could most bear to give up. 

Alright, should we try another one?

I’m excited for this one since we were just talking about mojitos. Mojitos are my favorite cocktail. And since I probably cannot drink a whole mojito without feeling like death the next day, I would love to find a mocktail mojito.

Corinne

Next up is Ish. The mindful drinking company. Non- alcoholic pre mixed cocktail Mojito. 

Virginia

All right. Let’s try it.

[Cans open.]

Corinne

This one weirdly smells like alcohol to me.

Virginia

Oh it does. They faked it well! I’m excited for this one.

Corinne

Whoa.

Virginia

Oh, I like this one. You don’t?

Corinne

I’m getting my bearings. It has a real alcohol feel. Like it has rum flavoring or something.

Virginia

Yes, this feels decadent for us to be drinking on a Monday.

Corinne

Yeah, it’s not even noon.

Virginia

I’m looking at the label to make sure.

Corinne

It says less than 0.5 ABV. So what does that mean? Do the other ones say that?

Virginia

That is the thing about a lot of non-alcoholic drinks is they sometimes do have a trace amount. 

Corinne

I thought that was just non-alcoholic beer.

Virginia

I don’t know if it’s because they put in a little sprinkling of something in? Or if it’s because things are fermented and so you might be getting a little bit?

Well, this one I really like and I would totally buy this again and have on hand so I can have a mojito in the summer, hopefully without a migraine.

I feel like your experience is being impacted by the can. Because I do really want to have this in a glass with a lot of ice and fresh mint.

Corinne

Yeah, I think these would all be good with ice. I feel like this could use a few more squeezes of lime. It’s a little bit sweet.

Virginia

I could use this as a base and doctor it up into a really nice summer drink. I would not drink this straight from a can but you wouldn’t drink a mojito from a can. That’s not correct.

Corinne

It has like an alcohol-like flavor. 

Virginia

The other two just felt like experimental sodas. This one feels like I could believe this is a cocktail.

Corinne

Should we talk about diet culture and alcohol?

Virginia

We should because these labels are a lot. If we go back to Figlia—the one that tastes like bad soap—on the label, you will see it is “woman owned,” “1% for the planet,” and then— “no added sugar” is right up there. 

Corinne

Fascinating.

Virginia

What you will see with a lot of mocktail marketing is a big emphasis on these drinks being lower calorie and lower sugar. I don’t think the other ones we bought are too egregious on this front, but it is definitely a recurring theme.

Corinne

Well, yeah. And the big non-alcoholic beer brand Athletic Brewing is sort of named that because—

Virginia

Because of Athletic Greens is my theory! 

Corinne

They’re like, “We like to do athletic activities.”

Virginia

It’s the man mocktail. You’re going on a long run and then you want to crack a cold one so you can have an Athletic Brew. 

Their marketing feels very “male wellness culture” to me in a lot of ways. And of course it may be accidental, but in terms of the impact in the market, you’re so used to hearing Athletic Greens marketing, and then here comes Athletic Brewing—you’re going to conflate the two.

We also talked about this on the Substack Chat, andd there were some really interesting comments.

Corinne

It’s super fun. It’s like basically having a little group text. 

Virginia

So we’ve been having little conversations about any random thoughts that we have. I know it’s annoying to download another app, but it’s a pretty good, harmless app. 

Get more from Virginia Sole-Smith in the Substack app

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Get the app

Corinne

I actually really like that app. I think if you subscribe to even just one Substack newsletter, it’s worth having the app.

Virginia

You can then delete them from your inbox and enjoy reading them in the app and it’s a much more leisurely reading experience, I feel.

Corinne

Yeah. And it’s easier to comment.

Virginia

Okay, that was a sidebar plug for Substack Chat and the Substack app!

But in the chat, I asked folks for thoughts about all of this. One person wrote:

“I keep getting ads for pot gummies and drops because ‘I shouldn’t waste calories on wine.’ I like wine and never think about its calories so these ads really surprised me.”

That’s weird for people to be like, “let’s emphasize the calorie difference.” Because there’s the thing about pot where it makes you want to snack? So it’s probably going to be a wash, which is fine. But that’s a weird thing to lean into. 

Corinne

Totally. There’s a whole thing where it’s like, you shouldn’t waste calories on alcohol. And then the whole thing of skipping meals so you can drink.

Virginia

Yes, saving your points. In college, my friends on Weight Watchers used to save their points all day so they could go out drinking at night. Which meant that they were starving when they went out drinking. It was a real solid plan. Just, no downsides there.

Someone else said they subscribe to the sunnyside app, which is one of those encouraging you to drink less tracking apps. And the app tracked how many calories you were not consuming by not drinking alcohol. That just feels like such an annoying way to approach this as a project. Especially because if you were truly getting sober, because you have a problem with alcohol, you need space to have other things in your life to replace that craving. And for a lot of folks, that ends up being sugar for a while. And that’s a very healthy switch to make, because you will not crash a car eating sugar. 

Corinne

And alcohol actually is poison, unlike sugar. 

Virginia

As my brain reminds me every time I have two sips. So for lots of folks getting sober will coincide with gaining weight or changing eating habits. And that’s going to be tricky enough in diet culture. But if you’re also thinking well, part of my motivation for getting sober or one perk should be that I’m consuming less calories and I’ll lose weight….that can really jeopardize someone’s recovery. 

Corinne

I have anecdotally known people who have lost or gained weight becoming sober. 

Virginia

It can definitely go either way. 

Corinne

But I can’t imagine wanting to get sober and having that coincide with weight gain, and then diet culture sending you back.

Virginia

Right? That’s scary. Someone else wrote:

“I have noticed in certain circles of mine, there has been a morality tone to sobriety similar to that of diet culture. I’m all for further acceptance of sober life in general. I think that’d be good for us as a whole. There’s just a tone I can’t quite put my finger on that feels a little disingenuous.”

Have you noticed this? What are your thoughts? 

Corinne

I feel like most of the sober people I know are not sober for morality reasons, so I’m not sure?

Virginia

I kind of know what they’re getting at? Alcohol is often included on the list of things you cut out if you’re doing some kind of cleanse or diet. If you do Whole30 or Paleo or something.

And it just gets messy because you’re removing too many variables, right? You’re not actually getting any useful data on your relationship with alcohol because you’ve cut all this other stuff, too. And often you’re doing it all for a weight loss component so there are these weird tangled knots. This is where I would say where sobriety gets coopted by diet culture, or gets sort of subsumed by it, and becomes another tenet of diet and wellness culture. 

Corinne

I think there’s kind of a myth or an idea that people who have gone through recovery have some sort of emotional maturity, which I think is both true and not true. Some people have, some people haven’t.

Virginia

There are a lot of different versions of this. 

Corinne

Yeah, I could see that being a morality thing.

Virginia

It depends on why you’re getting sober, but also how you’re getting sober. If you talk to anyone doing real recovery work, they will tell you that not drinking is not the whole ballgame. Going to meetings, the support, the doing really intensive therapy, and really dealing with yourself in a new way, that is arguably the bigger piece of the whole thing

This is from my cousin , who writes the Substack about mental health and living with chronic illness. It’s a new Substack, it’s really good. Kate is also in long term recovery from eating disorders. And they wrote:

“A lot of people move from alcoholism to eating disorders, and vice versa, because they are stored in the same part of the brain. So dismantling diet culture in recovery spaces and everywhere is super important. Plus in treatment spaces, weight loss as a benefit to not drinking is mentioned a lot, as healthy eating and avoiding bad foods.”

So that is super depressing for this weight loss language to be being used in formal treatment programs for substance use disorder. 

Corinne

Totally. Yeah, using diet culture as a tool to keep people sober. 

Virginia

And especially as they’re saying, because there is a lot of overlap between eating disorders and alcoholism. This is also why a lot of the research following folks post-bariatric surgery documents that an increased risk for substance use disorders post-surgery, because the surgery changed how they can engage with food, but didn’t give them any support for the underlying mental and emotional and psychosocial stuff. And then they’re vulnerable for this other kind of substance abuse. It’s messy.

Corinne

It’s complicated. 

Virginia

On that note, we have another mocktail.

Corinne

This is the one I’m most excited about. 

Virginia

You saved the best for last.

Corinne

This is the brand is called Parch. This is a non-alcoholic Agave cocktail. It’s a spiced Piña Rita.

Virginia

So like a piña colada and a margarita? 

Corinne

I think like a pineapple margarita? And the it’s infused with botanicals and adaptogens.

Virginia

Wellness culture!!

Did you see on the back there’s a note about “pour behavior?” So we’re drinking it wrong because it says “pour slowly over ice and garnish with a dried orange wheel or sip straight from a chilled can.” It isalso gluten free and vegan. This marketing is pretty, pretty diet culture-y. 

Corinne

This one smells spicy. I’m nervous. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh God. It’s so smoky! Why is it smoky? It literally tastes like bacon! It’s salty and smoky. It doesn’t say smoky anywhere!

Virginia

Maybe it’s a good breakfast mocktail?

Corinne

Breakfast?!?!

Virginia

Well, it does taste like bacon! I don’t know! 

Corinne

Oh, God. Oh God. I’m so sad.

Virginia

You really had your hopes up for this.

Corinne

 It just doesn’t say smoky anywhere.

Virginia

It says it on the side in tiny letters. See? It says “smoky and spicy.”

Corinne

Oh God. It’s horrible.

Virginia

I’m so sorry. You really wanted to like it.

Corinne

Okay, I’m trying to get over the smokiness, which has really taken me aback.

Virginia

It’s like drinking bacon. But not in a delicious way.

Corinne

It’s nuanced. It’s salty, sweet, spicy. Pineapple-y.

Virginia

Where’s the pineapple? I don’t taste any.

Corinne

When I smelled it, I thought it smells pineapple-y but it doesn’t taste it and the smoke—the smoke is too strong. It’s overpowering.

Virginia

It was so busy telling us about the adaptogens it did not warn us enough for what we were in for. I see the ingredients are organic blue agave, golden pineapple, Mexican lime, and smoky cayenne. I would say it’s mostly that last one.

Corinne

Oh. I don’t know. See after a few sips. I’m always like, “Okay, okay, fine.” 

Virginia

I can’t finish that! 

Corinne

It’s really smoky though. It’s also quite salty. 

Virginia

How would you eat a potato chip with that? When I’m having a mocktail, I also want a salty snack. And there would be too much salt. 

I realized that we should have said this at the top, but we did purchase these with our own money. These weren’t sponsored. Clearly,

Corinne

Sadly, we have paid for all of these.

Virginia

I was trying to order in the smallest quantities possible, but I have like eight more of a lot of these. 

Corinne

Yeah, I have a couple of some of them as well. 

Virginia

We’re going to have to figure out what to do.

Corinne

Would you drink any of these again?

Virginia

I would drink the mojito one.

Corinne

When I ordered the Ghia I ordered a few of the flavors and I liked some of the other flavors.

Virginia

Oh, you did? Okay.

Corinne

I think I would drink some of the Ghia. 

Virginia

I’m going to keep this and just offer when people come over over the summer, when I’m hosting and people could try them. And yeah, maybe other people will feel differently. Maybe some people like drinking soap and bacon!

Corinne

I mean, the one thing I’ll say is, they do feel celebratory. We’re judging them just on how do they taste at at noon on a Monday. But if I went somewhere and didn’t want to drink and had an option to buy one of these canned cocktails, I probably would. You know? 

Virginia

Yeah. Well, I don’t think I would buy the bacon one or the soap one. 

Corinne

But only now that you’ve tried them. 

Virginia

It’s true before I knew, I did buy them. And I also think, especially the mojito one, I could see how that could be really elevated. I mean, some of them, I’m wondering, do you just need to water them down? 

Corinne

Yeah, like if you mixed this with pineapple juice, or seltzer. 

Virginia

That might help. I could see the bacon one being better if it was way more subtle.

Corinne

I wonder if you poured it into a glass with ice some of the like fumes would diminish and it would taste less smoky.

Virginia

I don’t know if we’ve given people good intel on how to do their mocktail shopping. Try to taste them before you buy them. This is a wide open market.

The last thing we were going to chat about is how does alcohol fit into intuitive eating? 

Corinne

I think it’s a complicated question. I think for someone like me, who already feels kind of alcohol averse, I do think part of what has led me to drinking hardly at all is noticing how it feels in my body when I drink, and it feels bad. So doing less of it. What do you think?

Virginia

Same. I do think when I drank more before, like when I was much younger, I couldn’t as clearly connect my headaches to drinking. Because if you’re having a glass of wine most nights and then you’re not getting a headache every day, it felt more random. But now it’s like, I’ll go two to three weeks without having a drink, have one drink and then have a terrible headache the next day. It’s just very stark. And it is this useful data point that I can make a decision about. 

But I want to just acknowledge some privilege here that I’m not an addict. This is not the thing that triggers my brain this way. So it felt like a very positive decision. I don’t feel remotely deprived. I mean, there will be occasions where I’m like, “It would be nice to have a glass of wine or a taste of that.” And then I’ll have a taste of that. But it doesn’t feel restrictive to say, “I’m not going to drink.” And again, I just want to recognize that that’s not true or simple for folks who are addicted to alcohol. So there’s a privilege that I can say that I can truly take or leave this. And I’m able to assess how it feels for me in this more dispassionate way. 

But I think that is a form of intuitive eating because if you don’t feel like a food has to be off limits, you can much more clearly evaluate whether you want to be eating it or not and how it feels in your body. So yeah, I think it’s related. I mean, it’s true with food, too, but with alcohol in particular. I think it’s such a personal one because there’s a lot of variation. There are a lot of like shades of grey in how people relate to alcohol. It’s not binary, it’s not like you’re either not an alcoholic or you are an alcoholic. You can be uncomfortable with your relationship with alcohol without identifying as a full blown alcoholic and still find it challenging to give up and there’s just a lot of gray there.

Corinne

Yeah, and there are cultural components, too, like people who don’t drink for religious reasons or cultural reasons.

Virginia

Yeah, absolutely. Or if you live in a culture that is high drinking.

Corinne

Yep. Families or the hospitality industry.

Virginia

People’s family contexts, people’s work. A lot of workplaces are very alcohol-oriented and then it feels harder to opt out. 

Corinne

Yeah, definitely. 

Virginia

One of the norms I struggled with when we were a de facto sober house was if we were having people over for dinner, not having wine to offer them felt odd to me. People in our life were super supportive. No one was ever like, “I’m not coming to dinner because there’s no wine there.” No one would do that. But I felt like I’m being a bad host somehow? I’m not offering a complete dinner experience? So I do now if I’m having people over, I’m always like, “Must have wine on hand, even if I’m not going to drink it!” And that is sort of silly! I know, because I did it for six years, you can hang out have a great time with people without drinking. It’s not necessary. But there’s that social norm of it.

Corinne

Well, and the other thing is people bringing you alcohol. I had so much alcohol leftover from having a birthday party in January that I still have some of it. Everyone brings a six pack or whatever. And then I never drink it. So it’s taking up an entire shelf of my fridge. 

Virginia

And I think it would be good for us to be more thoughtful about that. I tend to not bring alcohol anywhere now, just because I feel like I don’t know everyone’s individual relationships. I no longer assume everybody wants to drink alcohol. I’ll bring flowers instead. That feels nice. 

Corinne

Yeah, I do think it’s like if you’re not stopping drinking because you must for addiction reasons then it is sort of like, what is the like, celebratory alternative, you know? Or like, what is the nice hostess gift alternative? 

Virginia

For sure flowers. I think you can never go wrong.

Corinne

Flowers, if you’re visiting Virginia. I will take flowers too.

Virginia

I think anyone likes flowers. 

Corinne

Yeah. Or like other food stuff. 

Virginia

Bringing nice chocolates is good. Or a fun loaf of bread if you’re going to dinner is nice.

Corinne

Or one of these non-alcoholic cocktail cans.

Virginia

But not the bacon one. Unless you’re trying to send a message.

Butter

Corinne

I want to recommend this podcasts that I just started listening to and am addicted to called Hang Up the podcast, and it’s a reality dating podcast. 

Virginia

Oh, you talked about this in and I was like what is she talking about?

Corinne

So it’s a queer REALITY DATING podcast. So all the dates take place over the phone and are recorded. And the latest season season two is in Albuquerque. And obviously, everyone has to change their names so that the person trying to find a date can’t google them or whatever. Each episode they have to hang up on someone or eliminate them. 

And then at the end the person who gets chosen gets to either choose to go on a vacation with the person or take $1,000 So I’m really curious what’s going to happen.

Virginia

Oh my God. This is a fascinating premise, especially for a podcast. Like, they’re not even on Zoom. 

Corinne

You can’t smell the person or see how it feels in real life.

Virginia

Smell the person? 

Corinne

I don’t know! Like, what is chemistry!

Virginia

If you go on a date with Corinne, you better smell good, folks.

Corinne

What I’m saying is, there’s an element to being in real life with a person that you’re not getting over the phone. 

Virginia

I’m just picturing you sniffing people now. 

Corinne

No, that’s not what’s going on. The first round of dates the main character person who is being set up, asks everyone this question, which I now want to ask you, which is, you choose, either your face looks 10 years older or your body looks 10 years older. 

I was like, this is a terrible shallow question.

Virginia

It’s so shallow. 

Corinne

But it’s also very interesting. They’re basically asking you to choose between wrinkles on your face or saggy boobs.

Virginia

I’m going to go with body because when I did this essay on body hair, a lot of people 10 years older than me told me they lost a lot of body hair. So I’m excited for my body getting older and me being less hairy. Having less hair-related maintenance feels like a real asset. 

Corinne

Interesting. 

Virginia

And saggy boobs? I had two kids. That ship has sailed. We are there. You can’t scare me.

Corinne

I chose face just because it’s less surface area.

Virginia

Well and you already have body hair privilege, so you don’t need to worry about that. 

Corinne

Yeah. Didn’t even cross my mind. 

Virginia

Alright, I definitely want to listen to this. It sounds really fun.

Corinne

Yeah, what’s your Butter?

Virginia

I feel like it’s not nearly as fun as that. It’s not as spicy as a reality dating show. My Butter is I have honed in on my summer uniform, what I will be wearing all summer. I feel like every season there are those weeks where I’m like what is the weather?! How do we do this? And then I hone in.

So all last winter it was the joggers and those sweaters, that sweater jogger combo. Now, I am really on the train of sets, with a matching shirt and shorts. And I now have three sets, all from Target. I’m wearing one right now. It’s a linen, the blue linen. Very pretty, kind cornflower blue color. Matching shorts. And then I have a striped green one (sold out) and a purple paisley, which sounds bold but it’s actually very cute. 

I realized it just removes all the decisions of getting dressed. This is the perfect work from home outfit, the perfect run errands outfit. As we know, I don’t do anything else. That is my whole life. What I like about these is the shirts are very big and light and loose, so I can layer them over a tank top. Then if I get hot I can ditch the long sleeve shirt and just be in the tank top. But I kind of like the look of that. I feel like when the shirt is buttoned up and the fabric matches the shorts, I can’t quite shake the feeling of wearing pajamas. But unbuttoned over a tank top that works for me, styling wise. 

Corinne

Are they all linen?

Virginia

Two of them are linen and then that dark green, light green striped shirt and shorts that I wore when we were in New Mexico, that’s cotton.

Corinne

Oh cool.

Virginia

I feel like the trendy shirt of the moment is a light blue and white striped button down shirt. I feel like every fashion person I follow is either shopping for this or wearing this. just did a post about it. on her newsletter was like I’m shopping for this.

Corinne

Like a striped button down?

Virginia

But specifically light blue and white is the look and then you wear it with red shorts or you wear it with jeans or you wear it with white shorts. has one so now I do kind of want a set that is light blue and white stripes. But do I need four sets? There are many days in a week. 

Corinne

Yeah. Then you have one for every day almost. 

Virginia

Basically it would be covering Monday to Thursday. I recommend the sets. You know we love a no decision dressing moment. 

Corinne

Yeah, that’s a really good recommendation. 

Virginia

The final thing of it is I hung them in my closet together with the shorts and the shirt on the same hanger, which is very nerdy. And I realize some people would break up the sets and mix and match things. But I just really love the ease of I’m just getting dressed this way. I really feel like I have capsule wardrobed the summer.

Corinne

That’s awesome. I love it.

Virginia

All right. This was a good episode. I hope people enjoyed us tasting things they couldn’t taste and understanding that we were not enjoying it.

Corinne

Let us know if you’ve tried any of these!

Virginia

Yes, we’re dying to hear. We want to hear in general about how you feel about mocktails, how you feel about drinking. How you feel like drinking fits in with your intuitive eating stuff.

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The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith (follow me on Instagram) and Corinne Fay who runs @SellTradePlus and Big Undies—subscribe for 20% off.

The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.

Our theme music is by Jeff Bailey and Chris Maxwell.

Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.

Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!