The Burnt Toast Podcast

Welcome to Indulgence Gospel After Dark!We are Virginia Sole-Smith and Corinne Fay, and it's time for your December Extra Butter episode.Today we've got a couple of rants and answers to your listener questions. On the agenda: ⭐️ The tyranny of School Spirit Weeks — especially during the holiday season! ⭐️ How it feels to date another fat person 👀🔥⭐️ How we're surviving — even thriving? — this Ozempic Season. To hear the whole thing, read the full transcript, and join us in the comments, you do need to be an Extra Butter subscriber.Join us here! 🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈Episode 222 TranscriptVirginiaOkay, before we dive in, I have a quick rant, which I think the moms listening are really going to feel me on. I would like, Corinne, to quickly rant about school spirit weeks. Because they're really breaking me a little bit this year. Do you know what school spirit weeks are like?CorinneWell, I saw this on our agenda, and I was like, wait, what grade is your oldest child in?VirginiaShe's in seventh grade. CorinneOkay, that is too young for school spirit weeks. VirginiaOhhh Corinne. Corinne. Sweet summer child. School spirit weeks start in preschool. I've been doing this the entire time I've had a child attending any sort of school.CorinneBut that's the whole thing! That’s more work for parents.VirginiaCorrect. School spirit weeks predate a child's cognitive ability to have school spirit.CorinneThat's not fair! Then who is it for? That makes it seem like it's for the teachers. Not that teachers don't deserve to have joyful spirit filled weeks.VirginiaSure, sure, I always want to appreciate the teachers. I don't know that the teachers enjoy it that much either though.CorinneWho is setting this up?The PTA or something?VirginiaThe PTA sets up some of them. Part of the problem in my own school community, is that school spirit weeks come from several different factions, and they don't appear to have ever coordinated their calendars. The elementary student council runs one, so it's a bunch of fifth graders organizing it. So they're jazzed for it! But they're expecting pre-K through fifth grade to participate, which doesn't make sense because the younger kids can't do it themselves. And then the week after they do theirs, we have Red Ribbon Week, which is a drug awareness thing. So there are themes like "it's no sweat to say no to drugs" so wear your sweatpants. CorinneUmm, okay.VirginiaBecause I'm sure wearing sweatpants as children completely prevented both of us from ever trying any drugs of any kind.CorinneI was really thinking I could come up with some great themes for that week. But I shall say nothing more of that here. Not for fifth grade.VirginiaSo the high school does their own thing. The middle school and elementary school are sometimes synced up, but sometimes they're not. Sometimes both my children have a random pajama day, but sometimes only one. They just come at us. Holiday spirit week is coming up this month, but they can't be too "it's Christmas" because they're trying to be non-denominational. But it'll be like, "wear your winter hats!" "wear something with snow on it!" CorinneOh my gosh. Are your kids into it?VirginiaI am fortunate that my kids historically only care about the day they can wear pajamas to school. Of all the themes of the week, that's usually the only one they're really like, "I want pajama day." And if they're allowed to bring a stuffy to school. But I should also note that we may re-up this rant in June because for the final 26 days of the school year, my school does something called the ABC Countdown, where every day is a letter theme, and it's like "B is for beach day, bring your beach towel to school."CorinneWhat?!?VirginiaIt's like all counting down to the end of the year?CorinneWhy are we making school harder? I don't think I ever participated in a Spirit Day, I will say.Virginia I do remember Crazy Hat Day being something I was very passionate about in middle school.CorinneThat does sound like something you would be passionate about.VirginiaBut when they are like, "wear sports team stuff," we don't support sports teams, you know? Despite my recent foray into football, I'm not going to get either my children in an Eagles jersey. That's a non-starter. I don't know sometimes they're low lifts, but even when they're low lifts, it's another thing to remember. And I have so many things in my brain at all times related to my children. I don't need another thing to remember. I also do think, depending on the district and the depending the way it's executed, spirit weeks can be really ableist and classist. There is often pressure to buy special things. If it's a crazy sweater day and you don't happen to be a family that owns a whimsical Christmas sweater, what are you supposed to do? Go buy your kids something? Not to sound like a Scrooge, because this is a December episode, but I'm coming out against all school spirit, period, as a concept, at the moment.CorinneAs a child-free person, I'm with you. I would not be participating. VirginiaMine mostly don't care. So we mostly opt out. But every now and then, there's this last minute, suddenly caring about it and it's so much pressure. So I'm opening the floor up to the listeners on this one. I'm sure there are people who would like to share their own rants. And teachers, I want to know, do you hate it, too? Is it making your job better? In which case I will try harder to participate, because I want your job to be better. CorinneI mean, I'm just imagining having 20 kids at the end of the school year with beach towels. It doesn't sound like it would make teaching easier.VirginiaAnd that's just B day. You've got 24 more to go.CorinneI'm sure 50 percent of kids lose their towels. VirginiaWhat do they even do with the towels once they get to school? It's never been made clear. Well, that's my rant about school spirit week. Now I have one more topic for us to get into before we go to listener questions. I have been struggling with a lot of getting dressed anxiety recently. It seems to have upticked for me. Do you go through periods where it is harder to figure out what to wear than others? How would you say it ebbs and flows for you?CorinneI want to say yes. I feel like there are a few different factors. I think one factor for me, and I assume probably for you, it's usually centered around social events, or if I have to leave the house. VirginiaThe worst. CorinneAnd then the other thing is if I just don't have anything comfortable to wear.VirginiaPants in particular. If the pants are not comfortable, God, it's just the worst. How are you going to make it through the day? CorinneOne thing I've really been leaning into—which is probably a controversial thing to say, as someone who makes part of their living writing about clothes—I've really been leaning into sweatpants.VirginiaBecause we're trying to be drug free, obviously, for Red Ribbon Week.CorinneWhat even what was that? Sweat? No sweat to say no to drugs? It doesn't even make sense.VirginiaIt's actually quite sweaty to say no to drugs sometimes.CorinneI've been leaning into wearing sweatpants out of the house. I have some of the elastic ankle Old Navy sweatpants. And I did Google how do you make sweatpants look less like you're wearing sweatpants?VirginiaOh, and what did you learn? Because this is what I've been working on, too. CorinneI looked at a lot of pictures. One direction you could go is wearing a button down shirt with sweatpants, so you're kind of fancy on top, sweatpants on the bottom. I've seen some fancier shoes with sweatpants. Like a loafer or something. VirginiaOh, interesting. I hadn't thought about that. CorinneAnother direction people go is full athleisure. Like, matching sweatshirt, make it a set. I also saw a lot of people wearing sweatpants with a nice t-shirt and jewelry. Like chunky necklaces, that kind of thing.VirginiaOh, that's fun. This is giving me a lot of good ideas. CorinneYou could definitely search sweatpants outfits on Pinterest or something.VirginiaOkay, this is very helpful.I have realized, for me, 100% of the time, it's not actually about the clothes at all. I won't share too many details, because they aren't my stories to tell. But I'm in a rough parenting season, and I've had some stuff going on. Which is why spirit weeks are especially unhelpful to me. At the moment, there is enough on my plate. CorinneIt is quite full. Yeah. VirginiaAnd in the last two weeks, where it has been very intense, this wardrobe anxiety has spiked so much. One day, it happened right before I was going to get on a Zoom with you! It took me 25 minutes to pick out what to wear. Guys, Corinne does not care. I could show up in my pajama. There is no bar here. CorinneI probably wouldn't even have noticed. VirginiaBut I was trying on everything, and everything felt wrong, and everything felt uncomfortable. And I think this was just where my other stress was landing. But it was really hard to break out of the cycle and recognize that. Part of my brain was getting it. It was like, "Pick a shirt. It doesn't matter. You're getting on Zoom to talk to Corinne." But I couldn't do it. I was totally just spiraling. So the spiral part of my brain was just like, "Should I layer somehow??" So my question is: What do you do when you're in that panic spiral to break out of it? Because logic was not working.CorinneThat is a great question. I'm having so many different thoughts. Next time, you could text me and say, "What should I wear to the Zoom?"VirginiaI mean, that is a great solution to that specific problem. CorinneShould we start doing spirit weeks for Zoom, where we show up to record in our pajamas?VirginiaOr sweatpants, no sweat?CorinneIt's a great question. How do you stop yourself when you're literally spiraling? VirginiaBecause you’re never going to make it better. Trying on three more outfits won't make you like any outfit any better. CorinneI always end up with a pile of stuff on my bed that then I later just scrape onto the floor and into a laundry basket of shame.VirginiaI'm doing that load of shame laundry right now. It's so pointless. But the fact that I did it before talking to you was really clarifying that this is about something else. Because obviously, that's not normally something I stress about. And then, anytime I had to leave the house for even minor stakes, like school pickup or kids' appointment or something where I was going to be visible, it would happen again. And I did stress shop a little bit. I will say, I don't think that's the solution. But I did stress shop, and I did at least specifically target my stress shopping, where I was like, "I am trying to get a very cozy sweatshirt. That is my goal right now". Because, to your point about comfort, I was like, I think if I feel physically cozy and comfortable in what I'm wearing, it will lower my stress a little bit. CorinneYou have also talked in the past about being a real uniform dresser. VirginiaYes. I have a basic cold weather uniform of joggers and a sweater or joggers and a button down. So this is the other reason I knew, okay, it's not about the clothes. Because I already have the uniform. But suddenly the uniform felt completely wrong. And I was like, no, no, this isn't what I should wear. So I don't have answers. I'm just throwing it out there because I bet other folks have experienced this. And it sucks! If this is a place your anxiety goes it just is a really hard thing to break out of. But dressy sweatpants, I think, is, is my uniform. And maybe one other idea is: When I can feel it's going to be a week like that, just decide ahead of time that it's dressy sweatpants every day. This is not the week to try on the jeans that you keep trying to convince yourself work.CorinneThat's probably wise. Maybe if you find yourself spiraling, and it's like, how can you snap yourself out of it? Put on music. Eat something. Or do something else to like, bring you back down to earth. VirginiaI think your idea about texting someone, like texting you, or texting someone else and being like, "I'm in a wardrobe spiral. Tell me what to wear," is really good. Just so people don't worry too much, I have a lot of support. Things are okay. It's just I noticed this was where the anxiety was showing up, and it wasn't a useful place for it to show up. And I thought, hey, it feels sort of like a Burnt Toast topic. All right, should we get into questions?CorinneYes, I'll read the first question. Is it affirming to date another plus size person? I feel like it would be, and it's something I want. VirginiaHell yes. Thumbs up for me. CorinneYeah. I also feel like hell yes. VirginiaI mean, look, mixed weight relationships happen all the time. They're very normal. It is totally fine to be a fat person with a thin person. Fat people are sexy and attractive to all people. So it is not like only other plus size people will find you attractive. But I think there's some comfort and safety and a shared language.CorinneI agree with that. I think part of what has been affirming for me is also just being like, yeah, I am attracted to other fat people. So it makes sense that other people would be attracted to me.VirginiaYes, yes. 100 percent. I completely co-sign that. It's very freeing and fun to realize and explore.  Jack and I call it "hot people problems." Like, you know, if your pants don't fit, you know, leggings fall down a lot. Just all the ways that, fat bodies move through the world and are not accommodated. It's like we have this shorthand joke, like, "whoops, hot people problems."CorinneThat's really sweet. I love that. Like, you knock something over with your butt, and you're like, "hot people problems."VirginiaHot people problems! And I think it's really fun to have someone you spend a lot of time with be someone who really gets that and is in it with you, right?CorinneAnd I love that reframing where you're like, "oh, like, I did something I could be embarrassed of," but instead it's a positive thing.VirginiaIt doesn't feel embarrassing. It's just welp, that's happening again. And I could imagine being with a straight-size partner, even someone who's super affirming, and super into your body, you would still would feel a little more vulnerable sharing some of that stuff. CorinneYeah totally. I mean, I will also say, even if you're both plus size, like, you could still have very different experiences of stuff.VirginiaEveryone has their own stuff with their body and their history of their body. I mean, we answered that question last month about when one person is pursuing weight loss and one person is not, and how to navigate those sorts of things. All of that can still come up. So I don't think it's just "look for someone in a bigger body," but leaning into "you find bigger bodies attractive" is really empowering and great. CorinneTotally agree. VirginiaAll right, I'll ask the next question. How are you both feeling towards the scale and seeing your weight? I'm navigating this in the later stages of recovery. Why do numbers hold so much power over us?CorinneA great question. In some ways, I feel I am the wrong person to answer this, because I feel less activated by seeing my weight. I think part of my own internal work has just been caring less about numbers and letting a number just be a number. Measuring different parts of my body to figure out if clothes will fit, getting weighed at the doctor's office, it's all whatever. But I know that numbers are really hard for a lot of people.VirginiaWould you say there was a time in your life where numbers were a lot harder for you? CorinneMy relationship to weight numbers, at least for a long time, was, like, I actually am not able to control this, you know? Or the effort to control it is insane. So, like, why? I think I also realized early on that different people weighed such different amounts. I remember as maybe a teenager realizing whoa, I weigh a lot more than my mom, but we're the same pant size. Obviously not true anymore. But I don't know, weight is so arbitrary in some ways.VirginiaI think what you're articulating is where most people are trying to get! I think it's a really great place to be, and I'm there a lot of the time, and then I'm not always. And so I'm sort of a middle of the road on this one. I should also say, I've never been in formal recovery from an eating disorder. I think if you're doing that work, this is something to really be working with your therapy team about. So that's sort of a little different than what Corinne and I can share here. But I do think that's the goal. I do think there's a lot of power in letting the numbers have less power. I think where I've been able to make that progress is on clothing sizes. Because just learning the absolute complete lack of science or logic or rhyme or reason to women's clothing sizes is maddening but liberating. I am able to absolutely not care, and have a completely neutral reaction, to whether I'm in the extra large in a line or the 3X in a line or any size. Other than I'm annoyed if I'm in the 3X because I'm like, "well, this is fake size inclusion." But I'm not taking that on personally. Whatever size I'm wearing, I'm just like, oh, okay, that's what this brand is saying. And I think that's hard. I think that did not used to be true for me. And I think a lot of people feel a lot of attachment to clothing sizes and so really learning to just have no reaction to those because they just tell you nothing.CorinneMaybe my not caring now actually comes from weighing myself so much as a younger person. Because I remember seeing how my weight fluctuates over the course of a day. It fluctuates with my period. I won't say numbers, but a thin person could be like, "I just went on a big diet and I lost X amount of pounds," and I'm like, "that's me taking a poop." I could fluctuate that much from morning to lunch time. I don't know. VirginiaEverything you're saying is just gold. It is a lot about just continually reminding yourself of how meaningless these numbers are, how arbitrary and fluctuating they are, and giving yourself permission to step back. And that's just not always the easiest thing to do, depending on your brain chemistry and a lot of other factors. I mean, I will say I'm completely not triggered by having my neck or my calves measured. That is just like, huh okay, that's what that is. CorinneIn some ways, it is useful information to have. And if you can just let it be information, then there's no value attached to it.VirginiaI wrote about weighing myself at the doctor's office out of curiosity a few months ago, and how that then did trigger a spiral, which surprised me. And so I don't want to weigh myself at the doctor's office ever again. So I think it's also worth noting, in which contexts will you feel more vulnerable engaging with these numbers? And that's a very vulnerable context for a lot of us. I am not going to have a scale in my house. I have daughters. I don't think scales are responsible home items, especially if you're a parent. But I do think I would feel more neutral if I were to randomly get on a hotel scale or something. Do you know what I mean? And part of it is, like, is this scale calibrated correctly? Did they put it on carpet and then it actually isn't working at all? CorinneThat's a great point, too. VirginiaThey're not giving you an accurate number most of the time. So I think it's also fine to, just as a protective stance, say, "I don't engage with those numbers." But if you do happen to come across it, remembering that it tells you very little about yourself.CorinneYeah. All right. How are you managing to stay positive in the Ozempic World?VirginiaOh man. Are we staying positive? CorinneI don't know. Before we started recording, we were talking about how both of us, and everyone we know, is holding on by a thread.VirginiaAnd not necessarily about Ozempic, just about life in general, the state of the world, government, etc. It's rough out there. CorinneIt's feeling like a hard time to be alive.VirginiaIt's hard be a human with a body these days. I think I am doing some protective things. I am continuing to curate my social media and unfollow people I need to unfollow. We talked about our love of Bad Skinny Girl TV, but I am mindful of how much skinny person content I consume, if I'm being honest. Especially when I was in the spiral in the last week of not being able to get dressed—because some of that did turn into body criticism. And I'm able to look at that now and be like, that was not useful. It's just a reminder that if you have something else going on, you'll turn it into dumping on your body, because that's what we've been taught to do. I'm doing that Fattify Your Feed series on the newsletter now, because, I want to keep looking at awesome fat people. I want to lean into that, as opposed to the toxic content.CorinneWell, I have been slightly wondering if we're starting to see a kind of Ozempic backlash, because The Cut just published that piece about kind of like GLP1s making life a bit miserable.VirginiaI was really interested they did that—because they certainly published some of the most pro-GLP1 content at the beginning of this whole thing.CorinneYeah, but at this point, the “I'm taking a GLP1” content is boring, because there's been so much of it. So now we've moved on to actually, there's another side to this story. I think we're still in the everyone's getting skinny thing, but.VirginiaI think, too, the more I hear people's stories and understand what goes into the decision for a lot of folks, the more I'm able to a have a lot of compassion for the decision. Very often it's not just "I want to feel better in my clothes," or whatever. Very often it is I need this to access fertility treatment. I need this to be treated fairly in my workplace. All of those sorts of reasons where it's like, you got to do what you got to do to survive and get what you need. So I'm less triggered by people's individual choices around it at this point. It's just like any other pursuit of weight loss—sometimes it makes sense to pursue weight loss, not because I think it's the "best thing" for anyone, but because it feels necessary. And so I'm able to say, well, it's feeling necessary to that person. And I'm glad it's not feeling necessary to me personally, but that's a function of a lot of privilege. I think another thing I want to say—and this is ironic, as someone who writes a newsletter and produces a podcast all about anti-fatness and diet culture—but being less engaged with the conversation is good sometimes. I don't mean be less engaged with our work, but, I've been thinking about it since we did our problematic faves episode. Like, it's okay to just let some of it skate by. CorinneYeah. Well at this point it's like, the Ozempic conversation has been going on pretty hardcore since.... 2023.VirginiaYeah, January 2023. CorinneThat's a long time to be getting mad every time.VirginiaWe're almost three years into it.CorinneI just can't get as enraged anymore.VirginiaAnd the conversation is not changing, right? "Is this killing the body positivity movement? What does it mean to not have food noise?" I'm getting the same interview requests over and over. Journalists don't have any new questions to ask me about it. So there's not a lot of news, or if there is, it's actually old news being repackaged. It doesn't change the core conversation around its role as a weight loss drug . So I think just finding ways to let it be, and stay true to what you want to do.Okay, okay, all right, I'm going to bring us up with the last question, which is a fun one. What is your fav winter holiday tradition and or food.Corinne Love this question. VirginiaI know you love these food tradition type questions.Corinne I love to talk about food. I mean, there's almost so many, it's hard to know where to begin. I feel like the first thing that comes to mind is soup. Aren't you not a big soup fan?VirginiaYou know, I'm reclaiming soup. I'm on a journey. CorinneI love soup so much. VirginiaI'm coming around quite a lot on soup this season in particular. CorinneOkay, great. Soup. As far as holidays go, I feel like my family usually does a big breakfast-y thing on the day of Christmas, and I really enjoy that. Like waffles and grapefruit and stuff. I love that. But I'm really here for all of it.Virginia Yeah, really not turning away any food traditions. I am becoming a soup person. And I realized a lot of that was about letting go of diet culture. I think soup has a very diet-y connotation, and realizing that that it is possible for it to be not remotely diet-y is how I'm able to enjoy it now, with a lot of bread, with a lot of cheese. There are many very non diet-y soup. CorinneCreamy soups. VirginiaCreamy soups! Love it. Probably my favorite Christmas tradition, since my mom is British, we always have crackers on the table. For folks who don't know are these long paper tubes. They're twisted at each end. They have a firecracker thing inside that just makes a bang. And before you start the meal, everybody comes, there's this complicated way you cross your hands, and everybody pulls the crackers together all at once. CorinneWow, that sounds so fun. VirginiaIt's always like herding cats. Like, is everyone ready to come to the table? Can we all hold the crackers? No one can ever remember how to move their hands. And then there are paper crowns inside and a joke, and sometimes little prizes and stuff. It's the tradition that I always felt like, as a kid, and as a British American child, made my Christmas feel special, because my American friends didn't have those. So I really love that my kids have that it's really fun. I think it has become a lot more popular here now. It used to be really hard to find them when I was a kid, and now there are tons of options. So that's probably my favorite holiday tradition. Food-wise, we always do roast lamb for Christmas dinner, which I love, and my mom makes all the cookies. And there are endless Christmas cookies that I love. I realized the other day, I think cookies are my favorite type of dessert. It's tied with brownies, but, I'm much more interested in a cookie than I am in a cake or candy situation. And so a holiday that's really celebrating many types of cookies, I just am like, yes please. CorinneI'm with you. I love cookies.VirginiaI also make a lot of really good pasta sauces this time of year, like the ones that you let simmer for a bunch of hours. It's just comfort food season. 🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈ButterCorinneShould we do Butter? VirginiaYes, let's do some Butter. I have a pretty good Butter I think. I regularly update folks on what my 12 year old and I are watching for our mother/daughter bonding TV show time, and I have exciting news for the elder millennials, which is: We have begun our journey with Buffy the Vampire Slayer.CorinneI shall now admit that I have never watched.Virginia I had a feeling you might be one of the non-Buffy millennials.CorinneIt's very embarrassing. I don't know. VirginiaIt's okay. Jack has never watched it either.CorinneI don't know why I've never seen it, because it also feels like it's just a cultural reference point.VirginiaWell, and not to tell you your culture, but it's very big in queer culture?CorinneI was going to say. People are constantly like, you know, Buffy, and I'm like, no, I don't.VirginiaWell, it's a very big part of my culture, and it's the show my siblings and I bond over the most, so they're very excited that she's being inducted into it. And she wasn't feeling it for the first few episodes. For any parents starting it with a child of generation alpha or something: They are used to a higher production value. They are used to a crisper television experience. If you're coming from Wednesday and going to Buffy, you're going to be like, wow, the monsters are less scary here. But that's actually great because it also means it's more campy and less scary, which is good for a show we watch in the evening. And Joss Whedon, creator of Buffy, was canceled for being a toxic man. So we have to hold that together with it was also a show very much made by women, written by women, and starring women. So I canceled Joss Whedon and keep Buffy is how I'm navigating that one, and we'll be discussing it. But she's in now. She's hooked. We're in season two. It's great.CorinneWell, since you're recommending TV, I'm going to recommend TV, too. I'm going to recommend the show Pluribus, which has just come out on Apple TV. I have only watched three episodes. One of the reasons why I'm recommending it is because it takes place in Albuquerque, which is really fun for me to watch. And it's from the creator of Breaking Bad. So if you enjoyed that, you might enjoy this. It's, it is a little more like sci-fi, post-apocalyptic, but it's raising some interesting theoretical questions. And I feel like if you have enjoyed shows like Severance or The Good Place, you might like it. VirginiaOkay, that sounds really interesting. How's the violence level? Because Breaking Bad got too violent for me.CorinneSo far it's less than Breaking Bad, for sure. It is kind of like a post-apocalyptic thing. So the first episode involves a huge event, but, like, it's not a gory event. VirginiaOkay, that's good to know.CorinneWhereas I'm remembering the first episode of Breaking Bad is pretty gory, I think they're dissolving a person in a bathtub or something disgusting.VirginiaYeah, it starts out hot and by the final season, I was like, I can't, I'm done. I can't do it anymore. I also have a lower threshold than most people for violent content on TV. But that sounds great.This was a great episode! We want to hear your favorite food traditions. We want to hear all the things in the comments. Come chat with us. 🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith (follow me on Instagram) and Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, and Big Undies!The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.Our theme music is by Farideh.Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!

We are Virginia Sole-Smith and Corinne Fay and it’s time for your Indulgence Gospel — Thanksgiving Edition! We often skip an episode drop on this day, but given how high pressure Thanksgiving can be for food, bodies and people, we thought...maybe you need a little Indulgence Gospel, a little Butter, and a little distraction from whatever your holiday weekend entails?We've got you: A Helen Rosner-inspired fashion epiphany. Thoughts and feelings about Black Friday. A very good Corinne clothing rant.Our secret shame places. And more! You do need to be a paid Just Toast subscriber to listen to this full conversation. Membership starts at just $5 per month! Join Just Toast! Don't want an ongoing commitment? Click "buy for $4!" to listen to just this one. 🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈This episode may contain affiliate links. Shopping our links is another great way to support Burnt Toast!Episode 221 TranscriptVirginiaOkay friends, buckle up for some good rants. I think this is a nice little Thanksgiving gift, to have a little Burnt Toast in your ears before you deal with whatever this weekend is for you. I hope it's lovely. But it is not always lovely.CorinneShould we take a moment to give thanks for the Burnt Toast listeners?VirginiaObviously. I give thanks for them all the time! We are very grateful for the Burnt Toasties, and very grateful for everyone who made it over here, from Substack to Patreon. We're now about a month and a half into that transition. And we really appreciate you. CorinneEverything is going smoothly.VirginiaSo let's talk about Thanksgiving a little bit. I feel like this is the time of year where I start getting emails that are like, "I've gained weight and I have to see blah, blah, blah relatives who are going to say a shame-y thing about it." Or, "What do I do when I'm at the table and my mom won't stop talking about her diet?" Thanksgiving is such a fraught time because there's so much delicious food, and people who are so weird about the food. CorinneWhen I saw this on the agenda to discuss, I had my own personal panic, because I was like, Oh my God, am I even doing Thanksgiving this year? What is the plan? At this point in my life, I live far away from most of my family. On Thanksgiving, I'm usually stopping by a friend's house, maybe bringing something. So it's pretty low key, and it's been so long since I've actually had to deal with this. VirginiaSo you don't have to do the big extended family thing?CorinneNope. And I want to say: If you don't want to go to your family's house, you don't have to go. I think there is all this pressure to keep doing things the way we've always done them. But you can change the plan. And, you know, Thanksgiving is kind of an effed up holiday.VirginiaWhat with being rooted in genocide. That's always a tough one.CorinneSo if you want to change how things are going, you could stay home and make a personal pan of stuffing, which is possibly what I'm doing. Can't say yet.VirginiaTo be clear, we're not recording this on Thanksgiving Day. By the time you hear it Corinne will know what her plans are. Thanksgiving is not a holiday that I have a lot of emotional connection to, either. My mom is British, so it was less of a focus for her when I was growing up. I don't think the food is delicious all the time, it can be a little bland. I get that people really love their mashed potatoes, and I am not ever here to carb-shame. But that is not my carb of choice. CorinneI love the food. VirginiaI'm with Samin Nosrat, who's always like, "Can it be a little spicier? Can it be more flavorful? Can there be a little more going on here?" Thanksgiving can get a little soft and mushy. Not always. I make an excellent fresh cranberry relish that really zings it all up.But if the way you do Thanksgiving is to always to reopen a bunch of old wounds, or put yourself in front of the firing squad on body toxicity, maybe don't go. Or at least, figure out a plan going into it! Do you have a group chat you can check in with? Can you take your breaks by offering to run out for more ice, or walk the dog? Going to hang out with the kids is often helpful, too. The parents will appreciate that. And if you go be with the kids, then you aren't talking about the politics or whatever the adults are doing.CorinneAnd you can get out some of your rage through running around and screaming.VirginiaDefinitely, yeah. It's tricky, though. And if you're going through it this weekend, we we feel you.CorinneI also would just say, no need to stand on ceremony. If someone's doing something weird, just tell them they're being weird. VirginiaYou're very boundary setting today. I like it. You're very like, Don't go! Tell them they are being weird!CorinneI'm just feeling like we have enough bullshit to deal with right now. If someone is telling you about their diet, just walk away.VirginiaThis is not the conversation we need to be having. CorinneYeah, come on. There's enough hard stuff.VirginiaI will link to things I've written in the past to give more nuanced scripts, if you want that option. But I'm with Corinne. I think we twist ourselves into trying to come up with the perfect response when the reality is—the other person's shitty comment is creating labor for you. So you can just be unavailable for that labor.Alright, let's talk about Black Friday. How do you feel about Black Friday? Corinne is our newsletter universe's resident shopping expert.CorinneI have such mixed feelings about it. On the one hand, I love a sale. I feel true excitement receiving all the discount codes. On the other hand, do I need anything? No. On the other hand, will I participate? It seems hard to avoid, you know? VirginiaDo you try to make a list ahead of time? I often try to have a little note on my phone of big ticket items I've been thinking about. So I'll check for a good sale price on these.CorinneThat's smart. I have not done that in the past and maybe I should. I think in the past, a lot of my strategy has been to buy things that I restock. So last year on Black Friday, I bought a ton of my electrolyte drink tablets.VirginiaSure because that's a line item in your budget. Get a good deal if you can.CorinneAnd I think it could be a good time to buy electronics or whatever. Maybe I'll think about making a list. I also think it's a nice time to continue avoiding big box stuff, and choose to buy something from a smaller, local store, which maybe doesn't have the same extreme discount, but probably could really use the business.VirginiaBack when I always sent out holiday photo cards, I would always order those on Black Friday, usually from Minted or Artifact Uprising. All the photo sites have really good sales, so I would lock that in, and then it would mean they would come early enough that I could actually get them in the mail. So they would reach people by Christmas.CorinneWow, that's really smart. VirginiaIt's also a lot of a lot of executive function. And last year I didn't do photo cards, and I felt quite liberated. But also any photo holiday gifts, like, if I'm going to make albums, or get pictures of the kids printed for grandparent gifts, I will take advantage of the sale for that. That's the main thing I usually think to do. And if I've been thinking about a new item of furniture or a new appliance or something, if I start thinking about that in September, October, I'm like, oh, let me sit on that and see what the Black Friday sale is. I never do any in-person shopping for Black Friday, because I can't do crowds. I’m exclusively talking about online.CorinneWhen I used to do Thanksgiving with my family, we did sometimes go to Target or another place. It was very fun to be at Target, which is not normally open at midnight.VirginiaI haven't done that since probably, like, the 90s.  And I don't think I ever did the midnight thing!Corinneit was just kind of a weird, fun, post-eating a lot of food thing, I think. VirginiaI get it! CorinneOne year we bought my mom an iPad, and that was really exciting. VirginiaOh, that's sweet. Speaking of Target, how are all your boycotts going? We haven't checked in about our boycott efforts in a long time.CorinneI was wondering about yours too. My Amazon Prime just expired in September, and I have continued to mostly not shop there. There have been a couple of things. When I was at my mom's, I needed a light bulb that I couldn't find anywhere else online, that I ordered from Amazon. And I did watch The Summer I Turned Pretty on Prime Video. Other than that, I've been avoiding it, and it's been fine. I do have a moment of annoyance sometimes. VirginiaIt creates a little more friction.CorinneI think Target has been a little harder for me, just in terms of clothes. I really miss even just browsing the Target clothes. VirginiaOld Navy is not quite the same. CorinneIt just sometimes feels like not enough variety. I want to be able to look somewhere else. I'm curious: Are people still boycotting Target, or are people still calling for that boycott? I'm not sure.VirginiaI know. I kind of keep hoping someone ends it. because I think their sales did really go down. I've seen some reports. (Here, here and here—which talks about a boycott of Target, Amazon and Home Depot for Black Friday!) So I'm like, did we do it?I will confess to one Target lapse. Okay, two Target lapses. In October, I had the stressful week of preparing for a child's birthday and also preparing to help run our school's Book Fair week, which is a very big, complicated event. And I needed to source party decorations for the child and tablecloths for the book fair. And time was what it was. So Target was how I had to get those things done. I wish I had made other choices, but in the time I had available, with the budget that we had for these things, it is what it was. So that was my one big Target lapse, and I am trying not to get sucked back in.But in terms of my own personal struggles with consumerism, I think it is kind of a good one for me not to have available. I was thinking about my house and how many fast home items I bought at Target over the years— like throw pillows or, oh, I need this candle holder. And I haven't been buying that stuff so much this year, and I don't miss it at all. My house is still cute. It's all fine. I've been going outside the box a little more if I need a home item. So I think that's been good for me to have to step back from.CorinneDamn. That's really powerful. VirginiaAgain, if someone tells us the boycott is over, fully expect to see me with a shopping cart of Hearth & Home throw pillows. Expect a relapse.CorinneOh God. VirginiaAlright, you were telling me before we started recording that you have recently had big feelings about driving pants versus standing up pants. Please explain.CorinneI know this is a thing. People are always like, "These are standing pants, but they're not comfortable to sit in." But I wore Old Navy jeans on my very extended road trip where I'm driving nine hours a day for four days. And I was like, you know, these jeans are pretty comfortable for driving. But then when I would get out at a rest stop, the same jeans were not staying up. I was struggling. VirginiaI do think sometimes sitting in clothes stretches them out of shape for standing.CorinneYes. This is actually why elastic in jeans is so useful. And the jeans that I'm wearing aren't 100% cotton, but I think they're like 98% or something. And I could probably use a little more elastic in these.VirginiaInteresting. CorinneBut also: Is this just a reality of being fat? Where you need separate pants for standing and sitting?VirginiaDo you think it's fatness, or do you think it's just, like... fabric?CorinneI do think when you sit down, your body changes shape. So how do you have clothes that accommodate your body like being different shapes at different times?VirginiaThin people are different shapes when they stand and sit, too.CorinneBut I think they have less dramatic shifts. The bell curve is less or whatever.VirginiaListeners: If you are driving in pants right now, or standing in pants right now, please change positions and tell us how you change shape. CorinneIt's all very relevant for a holiday in which we eat a lot of food, and perhaps change shape.VirginiaWe do need our stretchy pants. And I hear you on this. I often think, "I want to wear those pants later tonight and have them look good, so I can't sit in them all day at work, because they'll get baggy." And then I think, "What a high maintenance item of clothing you are, pants." Why do pants need such coddling from me? So I'm more on the side of, fabric is bad. But I suppose you're right. As fat people, we might be pushing our clothes more. So I think what I'm hearing is those jeans could not thrive in the fast-paced environment you required of them. And that feels like a them problem.CorinneSo is the answer just sweatpants?VirginiaIt usually is. It's what I'm wearing right now. It's what I'm wearing most days. I did just pull out an old pair of Universal Standard the Moro Ponte pant. You remember when I was so into those pants a few years ago?CorinneYes. The Ponti-Ponte.VirginiaAnd I didn't wear them at all last year! I had no interest in them for some reason, and I just pulled them back out, and I was like, yeah, I'm going to wear these. These are good, stretchy, cute looking pants.Corinne That's cool. That's great. VirginiaSo they're back in rotation. But the knees do bag out if I sit in them all day. CorinneSo annoying. VirginiaPants, be better. I mean, that's sort of the mantra of this podcast. Okay, I have another fashion-related matter for us to get into. I have had a real epiphany about what we even mean when we say fashion.And I would like you to look now to your texts for some screenshots I sent you. Helen Rosner is the source material. She posted this in her stories recently, and so we're giving her full credit for this. Because it's really resonating.CorinneYes, I've had this rant for a while about the styling thing, where people are styling this dress, and then they just put on more layers. And I'm like, yeah, that's not realistic. I'm hot. I don't want to style my t-shirt and shorts by adding a sweater. VirginiaAnd it made me realize, a lot of times I struggle with feeling like I've put together "an outfit," and it's because I know I'm going to end up just wearing the tank top, or whatever the base layer of it is. And that's not going to feel like enough of an outfit.CorinneAnd so then how do we style it? I was thinking about this this summer, because of my wedding outfit, which was basically a t-shirt and shorts with a blazer. And I was like, I know at some point I'm taking this blazer off. VirginiaAnd now I'm just in a t-shirt and shorts. But you did have cute pink socks!CorinneYes. I think the answer is socks. Having cute socks. So it's still felt styled, it still felt thoughtful. And you're not going to take your socks off. But if you're wearing pants, can people see your socks? So I think the answer is accessories. I want to think more about what other accessories would be good.VirginiaWell, and I think a corollary to this conversation is Zoom Fashion. Not for our podcast recording, where I'm literally wearing sweatpants and a sweatshirt, but when I'm gonna do a Zoom for someone else's podcast or a Patreon meeting or something. And I'm like, "I need to look polished and they can't tell I'm wearing nice pants." It's really hard to get the outfit to convey much when people only see your shoulders. And so then what are you supposed to do? You're supposed to have a lot of fancy blouses for Zooming purposes? That seems weird.CorinneJewelry. You're wearing a necklace right now with a sweatshirt, and it does look like an outfit.VirginiaI am wearing a necklace with a sweatshirt. I always wear this necklace. But yes, that's true.CorinneAlso, glasses. VirginiaThat is true. Glasses, like socks, are unlikely to come off. So that does help.Helen posted some other Stories where she says, “I feel too much of fashion exists only to be photographed on the sidewalk in Nolita. Like, where's the body? Where is life?”. And she talks about how fashion content is all sort of predicated on this lifestyle fantasy of running errands where you're going to be dressed cute to go to a bakery and a bookstore and maybe an art museum. And when is that ever our lives?CorinneTotally. I know. And if I'm having a day where I'm running errands, I'm wearing sweatpants.VirginiaYou need your standing up pants!CorinneThey need to stay up because my wallet is going to be shoved in one pocket, my phone in the other, and that's like two pounds.VirginiaShe says, "The dream of being out and about, browsing in a record store, picking up a paper sleeve of flowers, grabbing a flat white, the dream of engaging in inessential commerce in a walkable city." Like that is just not my life.CorinneAnd like, in a walkable city yet wearing heels or something that you could actually never walk in. Well all of this is why Big Undies exists.VirginiaIt really is. I am now articulating something you are always writing about.To take it one layer further, I think a lot of times this is bound up in when we are feeling aspirational about thinness. I've written about how for me, thinness is sort of bound up with looking like a character in a Nancy Meyers movie. I'm in a great sweater and jeans that do fit both standing and sitting. I'm walking barefoot on the beach. And fashion is just this whole aspirational lifestyle scam, where if you achieve a certain aesthetic you believe that you're going to have the life that matches it. As opposed to saying: What does my life actually involve, and what are the clothes I need to support that actual life? CorinneI don't really have anything to add to that. But I did just want to say that Helen mentions the styling trick of belting a coat. Like, using a regular belt over your trench coat or whatever. How many times have you seen that? And how freaking annoying would that be in real life? Like, you walk into the restaurant, take off your coat, and now you have a belt that you have to carry?VirginiaIt feels like you're undressing in public! Taking off your belt is what you do when you're about to go to the bathroom. So strange. That's very intimate to do in public space. CorinneBut people are like, "Have a baggy coat? Just add a belt!"VirginiaNo. I've never in my life done that. CorinneNever going to. Never would. VirginiaA lot of fashion is just very silly. Which we knew! I just appreciated how Helen distilled it. And I feel like it's useful for me to remember this when I'm going through my little social anxiety spirals about what to wear to things. Because that's often me trying to aspire to a lifestyle rather than dress the body I have and the life I have.CorinneYeah, and think about how much more you're able to actually have conversations and engage in what's happening if you're comfortable.This is a good reminder for Thanksgiving. If you're seeing people you haven't seen in a while.VirginiaAnd if you felt like you had to put a lot of effort into a holiday outfit, which can be a real thing. I mean, related, we were talking in the Burnt Toast chat recently about the pressure of wedding guests dressing. Anytime you have a more formal event, the stress of that can be so much. And I think it's the same thing, because it's requiring you to get out of your comfort zone, and then also to maybe physically wear something that's not comfortable. And it's like, what are we trying to do here?CorinneTotally.VirginiaWell in better fashion news, I want to share that I did just finally find a pair of tall, wide calf boots that fit my calves after doing a significant amount of research. But in not good news, I would like to report that the wide calf boot market is a complete and total sham. Like, it doesn't exist. The brands that claim to do wide calf boots--I am talking about Frye boots, I am talking about Inez, I'm talking about Nordstrom, DSW, all these shoe sites. I went through every one, looking at their boot measurements. And they consider a wide calf boot to be 16.5" inch circumference. CorinneYeah, that's not big enough. VirginiaThat is a straight-size leg! That is not a plus size leg. I am a fat person who doesn't even carry my weight in my legs. That's not the fattest part of me, and the boots that ended up fitting were a Lucky Brand boot that are labeled "extra wide" to have an 18 inch circumference. My calves are like, 17. One is just below 17, and one is just over 17. Also, PS, nobody's calves are the same size. So that was also fun to learn. I went down a real rabbit hole about this. CorinneI think mine are, like, 20?VirginiaWhen I say Lucky's extra wide calf—that's going to fit someone with, like, frankly, a Mid-Sized Queen-size calf.CorinneIf they're tall, how are you wearing them? You're tucking your jeans in or?VirginiaI could tuck jeans in with these. I had given up on that fantasy. And I still don't know that I will do that, because I don't know that I like that look that much for me personally. But I really just wanted them to wear with tights, which would not add a lot of weight. These are actually slightly wider than my calf, so there's room for a sock or something. But mostly, if you wanted room for a sock, forget it. It doesn't exist.CorinneDo they zip up the side?VirginiaThese are pull on. They're just wide enough that I can pull them on. But Lucky makes a wide and an extra wide calf. So go extra wide. The wide calf was like 17 inches. And the thing is, you can't get your exact circumference. If my calf is 17 inches, a 17 inch boot is not going to fit. There's definitely no room for a socks. You need a little give. I knew it would be bad, but I didn't realize it would be this stupidly bad. Knee high boots are really marketed, I would say, to people size 12 and below.CorinneI've heard of people taking boots to the cobbler and having them put in a little elastic insert.VirginiaLike a little gusset type thing.Corinne But also, do we want to do that work? Who has the time?VirginiaWhy is this my new part time job? I have bought boots from Adelante, which is a pricey boot company, but they do custom, so you send them your measurements.CorinneI heard that they are maybe going out of business, but...VirginiaWhen I checked for the particular this boot shopping season, they had an eight week ship time, and I did not have eight weeks to wait on this boot purchase. I needed it sooner, so that wasn't going to work for me. They also only have one tall boot style, which I already own. So I was like, well, that’s not quite what I'm looking for. I was looking something different.CorinneYeah, this is getting into my custom clothing rant. VirginiaYes, yes, please give us that rant. CorinneI've seen a lot of people suggesting brands that make up to like, XYZ size and then custom beyond that. And most of these are brands I haven't tried. So I can't speak universally. And there are some brands that I really like that do this, and so presumably they do a good job. However, I did recently order something custom, and this was from just a very small, one person type of situation. I sent them my measurements, and they made something according to the measurements. And it just didn't fit, right. I got it, and I was like, "I hate this." And I just feel like the suggestion of just wanting fat people to always order custom stuff is... Look, I'm glad the option exists. But it's not always an option. Sometimes you don't have the time. And why should I be ordering custom stuff that then if it doesn't fit I'm in this awkward situation where something has been made, supposedly to my measurements, but I can't use it? VirginiaIs that even returnable? CorinneYeah, probably not. VirginiaBecause if they made it just for you, they can't resell it, right? CorinneIf they're offering custom sizes. It's not going to be fit-tested. They're creating a new pattern, and they don't really know how it's going to work on your body until you put it on.VirginiaSo they'd need you to come in and have it fit to your actual body, not based on a set of numbers, right? CorinneAnd then you're just basically a guinea pig. It iss a good option to have sometimes. It's just not realistic in so many situations. And yeah, the wait time. It's like, you want me to order custom boots that I'm not going to get for two months, at which time winter will be over.VirginiaThis is reminding me, when we were doing Jeans Science, there was a brand, which I'm not going to name because they were very unhappy with me when I talked about this on Instagram. But there was a brand that you sent your measurements to—and their jeans were just nowhere close to fitting my body. Like, I literally wore them for five minutes, and they sagged so much I stepped right out of the pants. They just fell off my body. And she was like, "I don't understand. You sent us your measurements. They should fit."Corinne Like it's your fault somehow. VirginiaI double-checked my measurements. I'm sure I measured myself right, and they don't fit. And I think it's exactly what you're saying. People are not flat. We're not two dimensional. Our bodies change shape when we sit and stand. Just cutting clothes based off a few numbers is not going to work. CorinneRight. Just because you can make a shirt that fits 30 inches pit to pit doesn't mean it will be the right length when I raise up my arm. We're moving around in the world.VirginiaWe're living in our bodies. And the pants need to both sit and stand, drive and walk. We really we need clothes that can do multiple things. I know people who wear petites feel this, too. People are always like, "just get it hemmed!" And that's so much extra labor to take something into the tailor, wait the two or three weeks while they get it hemmed, go back and get it. And then, does it work? Plus not everything can just be hemmed.CorinneSometimes I just don't have the capacity to message someone, "Could you possibly make this for me in a bigger size?" It's just a lot of extra effort, and I'm really annoyed at the suggestion that that is what I should be doing to be shopping in the right way.VirginiaAnd for any straight-sized person listening: Imagine if you wanted to buy something from The Gap, who I'm eternally mad at for not making plus sizes. And they didn't have your size, but they promise they'll make it for you. And so instead of being able to just walk into The Gap and buy a shirt, you have to email them, and wait for a response, and send your measurements, and get out a tape measure, and measure yourself, and make sure it's accurate. And send out that information, and then wait for the thing to arrive, and then it still doesn't. Like, I mean. Straight size people would never!CorinneI can get behind a sort of luxury Made-to-Order thing once in a while, but sometimes you just need a sweater.VirginiaYou just need the thing to fit. Custom cannot be the solution to fashions, lack of size inclusivity. That cannot be the answer. People would not be able to afford clothes and it just isn't sustainable or scale-able.CorinneI think the last thing we were going to talk about was our secret shame spots. VirginiaOh yes, this is a fun one to end on. It started because, in preparation for this episode, I was trying to find something on my desktop of my computer, and I said to Corinne, "I know I look like a person who has my shit together, but if you were to see the desktop of my computer or the inside of my car, you would know my truth."CorinneAnd and I was like, "Oh yeah, my desktop is also like that." I would say my car is not.But you know what one that is crazy for me, is my email inbox. Do you know how many unread messages I have? And I went through this, maybe, like six months ago. I went through, archived everything, started from scratch. I have 16,000 unread messages.VirginiaAnd this is your main email? This is your Gmail?CorinneThis is why people have multiple emails. But at this point it's like, how do I even go back? Like, I can't start fresh.VirginiaWell, I don't know. Because I'm now paying $5 a month for storage for my Yahoo address because it has so many emails in there. But I don't want to have to go in and delete because I'd have to delete thousands of emails. And I only use that email for signing up for stuff. I could just delete the whole thing, but I couldn't figure out how to do that because, of course, Yahoo is far more interested in me paying $5 a month for storage. And so I was like, fine, I'll do this. BBut my Gmail, I keep pretty on top of, because that's my has to be functional email. That said, I also do think I've actually been trying to increase my tolerance for a little more inbox chaos there. Because I think sometimes I can get very perfectionist about the end of the week, trying to clear out to Inbox Zero. I've been a longtime Inbox Zero person, and it's good for me to be like, "Nothing falls apart if I don't answer every email in here," or at least go through and process every email. I think that's how I feel about the desktop and the car too. It's good to have identified areas in your life where you can just be like, "Yeah, that's not where I have it together."Corinne I mean, it's not possible to have everything together all the time. VirginiaAnd I'm not even interested in trying. There are other parts of my life where I care. My house is pretty tidy because I am pretty compulsive about tidying my house. Daily bed maker here. I love a made bed. CorinneWell, can't say the same for myself. But, aspirational.VirginiaI want to hear what other people's secret shame spots are. They don't even have to be shames! Just your places where you're like, "I don't try here." What are your don't try areas? I think that's fun to think about. Especially as we launch into a busy time where we all need areas we don't try too hard in. 🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈ButterVirginiaOkay, I'm gonna do my new red Adidas, which Corinne influenced me to buy. By which I mean she said, "I found these Adidas, and they are very Virginia-coded, and you should buy them." And I added to cart before she finished that sentence. They are a slight platform. They are bright red with purple stripes and a kind of neon red trim detail. They are super cute and I love them! And you were correct to tell me to purchase them.CorinneHow's the fit?VirginiaThey are so comfy. And I would say, run a smidge big. I go back and forth between a size 7-7.5 And I don't ever want sneakers to feel too tight, because you want to be able to wear socks with them. So I got the 7.5s, and they're roomy—like maybe I could have done the 7. There's definitely room for a sock. Unlike tall boots. I will say — I am still working up my nerve to style them, which is sort of interesting. I mean, I'm wearing them, but a couple things I've put them on with, and then I've been like, "Do I have clown feet?" They're very red. And I love red shoes. I'm surprised at my reaction. They're so cute. I'm wearing them, don't worry.CorinneI feel like they’d be great with jeans.VirginiaYes, here's what is tricky. With a wide leg jean, the jean covers so much of the shoe, you lose some of the cuteness, and then you just see the brown rubber of the platform sole, and that's less cute to me. So if I had a note for Adidas, it might be that the platform sole doesn't need to be brown. It could have also been red, and then I think I'd like them even more. I think it's just that thing where you're like, you have a new thing and it feels like such a statement. See all previous conversations. Virginia, just wear the shoes. CorinneThat's funny. VirginiaThey're pretty adorable. But yeah, what are you thinking? Are you making an Adidas purchase? This is not sponsored by Adidas, by the way.CorinneI have just regular Adidas Sambas that I actually love, and wear a lot, and are kind of like maybe at the approaching the end of their lifetime. So I want to get another pair. I think that I might be sized out of the cute platform ones, because I typically need an 11.5. But there is a men's version that's not quite the same, but very similar, and obviously doesn't come in as fun colors, but I might try those. There are some off-white and navy ones that I thought looked good.VirginiaI mean, I will say the platform is the least interesting thing about them to me. I think the colors are really fun. So if they could just do better colors! CorinneSometimes they have good colors. I feel like you just have to check back. Okay, my Butter is a food product, which I discovered on my road trip. Where was I? I don't know. I was somewhere, and I saw these little delicious-looking candy bars, and I bought one. And now I'm obsessed, and want to order boxes and boxes of them to my house. The brand is Mayana Chocolate. I think the one I liked was, I think it was "coconutty bar," or it was something with coconut in it. But they're really chubby. They're chunky, so they're very satisfying to eat. VirginiaThat sounds yummy.Corinne And now I am wishing I had one with me. So if you see them in a store near you, buy one or stock up. And send me some.VirginiaWell, this was fun. I hope everyone's driving safely and or cooking efficiently. And that you have lovely holiday meals, and nobody says weird things about bodies to you. And we'll see you back here next week! 🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith (follow me on Instagram) and Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, and Big Undies!The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.Our theme music is by Farideh.Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!

You’re listening to Burnt Toast! I’m Virginia Sole-Smith. Today, my conversation is with Debra Benfield, RDN.Deb is a registered dietitian/nutritionist with 40 years of experience helping people heal their relationship with food, movement and their bodies. Her work sits at the intersection of anti-ageism, body liberation and trauma-informed care, offering a radically compassionate alternative to diet and wellness culture—especially for those in midlife and beyond. After turning 60, Deb began questioning the dominant narratives around aging, vitality and beauty, and quickly realized the majority of resources still centered weight loss and youthful appearance as the ultimate goals. In response, she created what she couldn't find: A framework for nourishing the body that honors body respect, prioritizes liberation and embraces the full spectrum of aging. Deb is the author of the beautiful new book Unapologetic Aging: How to Mend and Nourish Your Relationship with Your Body.  Deb came on the podcast back in 2023 and we had what was really the first, or certainly one of the first, conversations we've had on Burnt Toast about the intersection of ageism and anti-fat bias. That discussion helped lay the foundation for how we're continuing to talk about those issues. Deb is someone I always turn to for resources and wisdom as we're navigating those conversations here. I am so thrilled to have Deb back on the podcast today, to talk about her new book, how diet culture has hijacked the menopause discourse, and why peanut butter and jelly sandwiches are actually giving you all the protein you need.  Unapologetic Aging comes out on December 16, so now is the perfect time to pre-order it as a holiday gift for yourself, your mom, or anyone you know in midlife and beyond! And don't forget that if you've bought Fat Talk from Split Rock Books, you can take 10% off your purchase of Unapologetic Aging there too — just use the code FATTALK at checkout.And if you value this conversation, a paid subscription is the best way to support our work!Join Burnt Toast! 🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈Episode 220 TranscriptVirginiaWe are here to talk about your new book, Unapologetic Aging, which comes out on December 16. I loved the book. I think it's such a valuable contribution to this whole conversation. It's really a guide to living well in midlife and beyond without, as you put it, "the whole diet and wellness mess." It's also a very powerful reckoning with how our ageism and fatphobia prevent us from doing the things we really want to do at this time. DebI'm trying to create some awareness of our internalized ageism, because I think it goes unnoticed. If anybody is listening to your podcast, my hope is that they've already done quite a bit of work looking at their anti-fat bias. So then it's about looking at where those two meet, as you notice changes in your body. So I created a book that helps you with your awareness and with how you could look at making choices to support yourself and mending some of the body stories you carry about your aging and about changes. That includes being in a larger body, and some pieces around body image and intimacy. Body liberation as you age is such an important legacy for the generations to come. VirginiaI want to start with something I underlined right in the introduction. You wrote that we so often hear “You haven't aged a bit!” And this is considered a grand compliment, right? But you're immediately questioning why. Unpack that for us.DebAgain, hoping that your audience is already aware of how “you look great,” if you lost weight is a problematic thing for someone to hear. It's very similar. It's a very parallel compliment in that you just calcify this belief that looking older is bad and looking younger is always better. That very definite binary that we impose upon ourselves. It is very much like looking thinner is always a victory, and looking larger must mean you're failing in life. VirginiaIt's so interesting when you step back from it. Why do we not want to look like we've been living? Why would I want to look like a younger, less accomplished, less mature person? Not to criticize my younger self—but why wouldn't we want to own the aging that we've done, and the living that we've done? DebWe've just internalized all of this fear. And I get it. I understand that to pass as younger gives you more social collateral, and theoretically you lose relevance in our very ageist culture. So I get it. It's disempowering to say the very least. And it's a perpetual fight. I'm not a fan of fighting my body overall. And I think that's what's at the center of my book: What happens when you stop fighting, and instead befriend, and care for, and lean into the connection and relationship you can have with your body? How beautiful it is, especially at this time in life. There's so much liberation there that I'm very attracted to that for myself and anybody that wants to talk to me about it.Join Burnt Toast! VirginiaI have a kind of funny story to confess. As I was reading your book, a moment came up where I had to recognize, oh, this is my own internalized ageism showing up. The backstory is my boyfriend, Jack is nine years younger than me. So we have an age difference. And he was talking about a friend, and he referred to her as "an older woman." And I realized the person he was talking about was the same age as me, and I immediately was like, "What do you mean older woman? Why are we using the phrase older woman?" And he just looks at me and he's like, "Babe, it's a good thing. That's a neutral description. It's a neutral term." And I was like, oh, I need to reclaim "older" or "old," just like I've reclaimed fat. So now our joke is, if you say older women, you say, "parentheses complimentary," to clarify that it's meant as a good thing. DebWe're just socialized to think “older” is negative.VirginiaObviously you shouldn't even need that parentheses!DebWell, we all do. I do it too. We all do. It was just so deeply, deeply ingrained, just like all the stuff around anti-fat bias.VirginiaI remember last time we talked about language when you were on the podcast. And we were talking about how we like “elder,” but there are other terms that do feel more negatively imbued. So it's not necessarily that you have to reclaim every term around aging, but it is worth looking at why is this term hitting you this way?DebAnd we may be different in the way things land with us, too. I mean, clearly with you and Jack. VirginiaYeah, totally. I was like, Okay, called out for my own ageism. So something you write about quite a few places in the book is this phenomenon of what you call “super agers," which we see constantly on social media. They're always showing up on Good Morning America. Super agers are folks who are over 70 or 80 and still windsurfing or doing yoga or  rock climbing. It's pretty much always some incredible physical feat that someone's doing in their later years. And we have such a tendency to celebrate that, but you're very clear that that's not necessarily a straightforward celebration of aging.DebWhen I was thinking about this, I was also watching the New York City Marathon. And all the celebrations tended to be focused on people with disabilities, older ages. It was very interesting to me. And larger bodies! All of them are grouped together as celebrations because they pushed through some sort of social limitation to accomplish this thing. And again, as always, there is some truth in that. I do have respect for people that work hard to accomplish things. And aging is fascinating in that we become more unique and heterogeneous the older we become. The longer we live, the more experiences we have, the more  possible disease diagnosis and treatments, medications. I mean, so many things happen with each passing year. We're very unique. There are just as many ways to age as there are to live your life. I just want to put forward the fact that you don't have to be in a super human category to be aging well or successfully. It's not unlike when you say “Good Fatty." You're a “Good Fatty," if you work out right, and if you work really hard on your body and being healthy. All the healthism that starts to rise up. So it's very similar with pushing yourself despite your age.VirginiaThere are two layers to it. There's this thing where it's actually quite patronizing to the person doing the activity. Like, oh, good for you. You're doing this despite all the odds. Which you wouldn't say to a thin, able-bodied 25-year-old running a marathon. Then it's, wow, you've worked hard and have skills and experience. And then also it's contributing to this artificially high standard of what we need to aspire to. So now it's not enough to just try to  preserve my mobility as I get older. I also need to be able to do a headstand.DebThe hard part is that, yeah, I do want to celebrate these accomplishments. Of course. I think that's amazing. I saw something about this woman who beat the world record and how long she could hold a plank. And she was about 10 years younger than me, so I immediately got on the floor, of course, to see what I could do. And there are so many little things on social media about tests of your capacity as you age. If you can get up from the floor in a certain way. If you can put on your socks and shoes without sitting down. And what happens, of course, is we judge ourselves, we compare ourselves. And I don't know how helpful that is. I mean, if it motivates you to see if you can shift and change some of your habits, to see if maybe you could work on balance, maybe that's uesful. It's very important to have healthy feet, for example, but to what end? That's what happens for a lot of people. It's like, hell no, I can't do that. I can't do this so why try? A lot of the research on ageism shows that this narrative about decline and fear mongering does not do us any favors when we believe those negative story lines. Fear doesn't motivate us. It makes us feel like we're doomed. And there's actual data showing that we live longer with a much more positive mindset around what it's like to be in an older body. VirginiaIt's making me think of how much we narrow the definition of health when we do this. When we say, Can you get up off the floor without using your hands? That is a sign of how healthy you are. Well, I can't do that every day. That's not something that's available to my body every day now. On the other hand, I recently increased how much weight I'm lifting when I strength train. I can lift a much heavier weight than I could when I was younger and could get up off the floor more easily. And so it's kind of a wash to me, like, which is healthier? And that's setting aside the aging discourse around strength training —we'll get there. I just mean, there are so many different facets of health. And those two examples are just talking about physicality. That's before we get to mental health, or all of the other ways we can measure health. And I just think it's so interesting that we constantly narrow how we define health and how we're grading it.DebWe're so influenced by these “longevity bros.” We're just so, so inundated by those types of messages, especially on social media and podcasts, that it totally narrows our definition of beauty, our definition of  what it is to be well and to live well. One of the things that we need to do at midlife—and I think midlife invites this when you're staying in touch with yourself— is to embrace a reflective period. It's like, okay, I clearly have less time in front of me. What are my values? How do I want to sail the ship? That is something that happens in midlife, and I think it's very important to clarify how you want to spend your time and energy now. And for some people, it is getting up off the floor without using their hands. For a lot of people, not so much. And that's okay.Support our workVirginiaThey are morally neutral activities.Another phrase I underlined in the book, because as soon as you wrote it, I said, Oh God, I'm hearing that everywhere, is people saying, "Well what I've always done isn't working anymore." They're usually referring to how they're eating or how they're moving their body. Like, I always used to do X, Y and Z, and now it's not working anymore. You have such a smart reframe for this. Because was it ever working? DebYes, what do you mean by "working?" Working to fit your body into a certain size and shape, or maybe functionality? Why are we holding onto that? I don't think that serves us very well, because our bodies are supposed to change. I talk a lot about this metaphor of the monkey bars, that in order to move down the monkey bars, you have to let go of one to move to actually move forward. If you cling and grasp, you will stay, and I'm not interested in that. I'm interested in continuing to move forward, whatever that looks like. To evolve and change and become is the beauty of midlife and beyond. That's the opportunity, that's the emergence that is available to us. So this focus on holding on to what's been working, as in, keeping ourselves in the same size dress, or whatever the story is, that's another one of those, like, I can still wear the dress I wore when I went to prom in high school.VirginiaThat's a big achievement. Staying your high school size forever.DebI don't think it's serving us.VirginiaIt's really not. It's really a way of staying stuck, as opposed to letting yourself change. When we fight change, we make it so much harder on ourselves.DebBut the social conversation is maintained. Maintaining that freeze frame--it doesn't make any sense to me. It just doesn't make sense. But I see it and hear it, and people spend a lot of money on it.VirginiaDo you think that wanting to freeze frame is also behind so much of the menopause discourse right now? DebAbsolutely. What I hear in the menopause space is fear mongering about change. And that's getting more and more extreme, in my mind. We are talking to each other right after you've probably seen the very viral conversation about how in menopause, your brain eats itself. Thankfully, there has a lot of pushback on that by people I respect, because there's absolutely no data. It was a rodent study, and the rodents died soon after menopause. So clearly their menopause is not the same as human menopause. But the fear mongering gets people. It just hooks you and makes you feel like you should do whatever this is being sold. But the research does show that our brains change in very interesting ways. As we get older, our brains have more capacity for being flexible and adapting. So that's a beautiful thing. I like celebrating the fact that we find ways to continue to live our lives as fully as we would like to, and age the way we want to age, without all this pressure and fear. Fear, in and of itself, is harmful for your brain, by the way. VirginiaWith the menopause discourse being so loud right now, especially on social media, it feels like all of diet culture is boiling down to two things that we are supposed to do as much as possible: Eat all the protein all the time, and strength train constantly in our weighted vests. The book, I want to be clear, is so much more than that. You have so many great tools, journaling prompts, strategies to help people do this really hard work of figuring out how they want to relate to their bodies and take care of themselves in this life stage. But I do want to get you to give us your hot takes and reframes on protein and strength training, because those are the two that we get the most questions about by far.DebAs most things in this arena, there is some truth. There's a kernel of truth. It's just gone too far. It's gotten too extreme. My preference is to really honor the unique person and their needs, and I also prioritize mental health. If you are a person who has had any history of disordered eating, chronic dieting, obsessive thoughts, anxiety, then the fear mongering is going to be very harmful for you. And triggering. There is research that shows there's an increase in relapse and development of new eating disorders [at this age]. Obsessing over numbers like protein grams is harmful. I don't do it. I don't recommend it for anybody. I think understanding where protein is in our food is smart. You probably already know that. And making choices where you include some protein most of the time is helpful. You don't have to do it every single time you eat. But that is kind of how things naturally happen anyway, without a lot of effort. Unless you're a person who doesn't like protein-containing foods at all—and that can be true—then it may require more effort on your part. My favorite example is peanut butter and jelly sandwiches. I just love peanut butter and jelly sandwiches or peanut butter in anything. I feel like my body goes “thank you” every single time I give myself that. It works. And I've heard that from many clients, too. Pleasure centers light up. You get carbohydrates, fat and protein. It's such a great combo. It's a beautiful food choice, and it lasts forever. You don't have to keep it in the fridge. Another example is a charcuterie board, where you have some cheese, you have some ham if you eat meat. There tends to be a little bit of protein along with the carbohydrate and fat, naturally. So you don't really have to get down in the numbers. I encourage you to pay attention and make choices that include protein. But I think it's completely unnecessary to count the grams of protein.VirginiaI love that the takeaway is eat a peanut butter and jelly sandwich. Yes, done, sold. DebAnybody listening to this and has ever worked with me is probably laughing really hard right now, like, there she goes again. Peanut butter and jelly is my solution to all the things. VirginiaIt's one of the most perfect foods! I had a phase where one of my kids basically lived on Uncrustables, and I was like, no notes. It made packing lunches so easy. We could always have them with us. It was delightful. Join Burnt Toast! DebOkay, strength training.VirginiaLet's do it. DebHere's the thing that I want people to hear me say: No matter what you do, you lose muscle mass. It's not like doing all the things it's going to stop that, because it doesn't. So that's a fact. That's an opportunity for acceptance that your body softens. There's something about that that I find very inviting. I love that my body is softening. I really, truly do. I'm attracted to the softness that's available to me that didn't used to be. I'm naturally kind of like-I don't know if anybody ever watched Popeye? Popeye's girlfriend's name was Olive Oyl, and that was my nickname when I was a kid, because I was just long and lean. So softening is exciting for me. I've never really had this softness, so I think it's sweet. And there's a softening that I'm attracted to around taking the edges off of all of our anxiety and our preoccupation with being perfect. I have a lot of positive associations with softening. There are also some health protective aspects of having more storage space. That's what body fat is. You will be safer when the next virus comes around. We're in that time of the year where we're all going to get this and that virus. So you have more storage and your bones are a little bit more protected. Weighted vests... well that's a huge conversation. VirginiaAs a fat person, I'm already wearing my weighted vest at all times.DebIt's just anti-fat bias that you would need to be as lean as possible and then strap on some extra weight. I'm sorry. It makes me laugh every time I think about it. I'm sorry if people see me laugh when I see them without walking and they are wearing their weighted vests. I'm just entertained. VirginiaAlso, caveat listeners: If any of you are like, no, I just love my weighted vest, we're not taking it away from you!DebI'm not judging you if you're doing it. I totally get that you're just trying to do the right thing for yourself all the time. We all are. It's just, I'm not falling for that one. Weighted vests are on my “I'm not falling for it” list. But yes, we do need to do things that include bearing your body's weight and extra, if that's possible, and of course, the data supporting heavier weight is there—if that's interesting to you, if that's accessible to you. So many women contact me and say, I just feel like I'm not doing it right, because I just can't make myself do heavy lifting. And that's okay, too. Making yourself spend time doing something you hate doesn't feel in my mind like the thing you want to do with this precious part of your life. Because it's more and more precious. I'm in that category. Maybe I'll get to a place that I want to. I'm sure it feels good to feel yourself be powerful and strong. Yes, I get that. I'm a yogi. I love doing yoga poses where I hold my body weight. And I'm also a single mom, so I do a lot of lifting naturally in life. I do all the things around the house.VirginiaI think it's so interesting, because I do enjoy strength training, and I wouldn't be doing it if I didn't genuinely enjoy it. Because for me, the form of exercise that I detest and get caught in this "I need to make myself do it" cycle is cardio. And if they were pushing cardio as hard as they push strength training, I would be a mess. So that's just to underscore—any way you're moving your body that makes sense for you is good. And if you can find joy in it, even better. DebAbsolutely. And feel playful!If you can find some playfulness, and if you can find some social connection, you're also doing things to help your brain and your aging process be with other people. Finding community and finding some playfulness is very, very healthy. VirginiaI love that. DebSo yes, of course I want people to keep moving. But not in this prescribed, "can you hold a plank for three minutes" way. And not in ways that disconnect you. That's probably the biggest thing for me is when you start counting grams, you get disconnected from your body. You get all in your head. When you start judging your body to make sure you're doing it right, you're disconnecting from your body again. Things that keep you connected and in your body are what I'm all about encouraging.VirginiaI love that.Are there any habits or lifestyle practices, or anything that you're like, "well, if people could add on something...?" And I realize I sound like I'm undermining our whole conversation here, because I'm like, "tell us one habit we need to have!" and that's not what you're about. But I'm just curious what you think people benefit from doing more of in midlife? DebMy number one go-to is adequacy. I am very afraid that people are starting with a diet culture mindset which is so inadequate for supporting our bodies. And I notice that the symptoms of being undernourished are exactly the same symptoms that women experience in menopause. Brain fog, fatigue, anxiety, problems with sleep, loss of libido. It’s the exact same list. So I worry that this "blast your belly fat" conversation is contributing to our menopausal experience, peri and post. You are not going to age well if you are living with scarcity and under-nourishing your brain and body. So that's my number one concern, because I hear it so often, and because diet culture has so skewed our perception of what is adequate. I feel like it's a very common experience. Trying to feed yourself throughout the day, trying not to skip, because there's a lot of that going on, a lot of skipping. Because morally, we feel like we are being good and superior thanks to diet culture when we ignore a request for fuel from our body, that little hunger that pops up. And you're going to have more food noise, by the way. I don't know if you want to get into GLP-1s today, probably not.VirginiaI mean, when are we not getting into it? Feel free to throw it in. DebI would not be getting into it if it wasn't so commonly recommended. The new thing now is microdosing for the menopausal changes in your body. I mean, I'm not going to make a bold statement against GLP-1s, because I have many clients that are benefiting, that are in recovery with type 2 diabetes, that are benefiting and doing well. So I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about this facelift plus GLP-1 phenomenon. I believe in bodily autonomy, so I also don't want to diss anybody from making that choice, but discerning what you want from what the social construct is imposing on you requires some time. And that's the other thing that I want people to do in midlife, is to do some checking in with themselves, to get some clarity about what they really want versus what they think they should do. And how can you tell the difference?VirginiaWell I love all of that, and it feels, in so many ways, more doable than counting your protein grams and wearing your weighted vest. I hope people are receiving it that way. And your book is just such a great guide. It's like being in conversation with you. You're just so warm and wise and grounded and gently moving people through what can be heavy work, but there's a lot of joy to it as well.DebYeah, thank you. I tried to create little body breaks, chances for people to just go drink some tea and look at the sky, take a few breaths, because it can be very hard to look at the stories you carry about your body, and do you want to still carry that.🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈ButterDebI am in love with the Samin Nosrat book.VirginiaThe new one?DebYes, Good Things. Well, the old one too, but the new one.VirginiaAnything Samin does, really.DebAbsolutely. I mean, her work is such a beautiful antidote to diet culture. I send people to her Netflix series, Salt, Fat, Acid, Heat, because it's pure food joy, without a single tiny second of nutrition anxiety. It's so rare to find. It's so rare. But she has this--what does she call it? The roasted vegetable salad matrix? I've  dog-eared that page. I just keep it on my counter, because there are so many cool ideas about mixing and matching, and that's kind of how I cook anyway. It's like, what do I have? What's on sale? Can I do some extra roasting on the weekend when I have time? And what can I throw together as I go through the week? Little bit of crunchy, a little bit of bright acid, little bit of sweet. You can make sure you throw your protein in there, too.VirginiaI haven't gotten all the way through the cookbook yet, but I love it, and I love the way she writes about food, and about giving herself permission to seek pleasure. There's a really lovely essay in there about that.DebAnd not perfection! I mean, she rages against that perfection piece, which I think is so helpful. And try to invite people to join each other. Because the other piece about aging is you want to stay in community as much as you can.VirginiaWell, that leads us perfectly into my Butter, which is last night I had the absolute joy of going into Brooklyn for Kate Baer's book launch event with Joanna Goddard at Books Are Magic. Kate Baer is a phenomenal feminist poet. I probably don't need to introduce her work to anybody. Her new book is called, How About Now? There are so many fantastic poems in it. And just the experience of sitting in—it was actually in a church because Kate draws such a big crowd, they have to have it off-site from the bookstore. So we were in a Unitarian Church, and there were probably at least 300 women, most of us in midlife or beyond, just sitting together to celebrate poems about our lives that make us feel seen. I have goosebumps just thinking about it again the next day. It was really such a gift to be in community with so many women. DebThat sounds amazing. VirginiaKate is such a sweetheart, and I’ve been rooting for her a long time. Yes, now let's talk more about your work. People need to preorder Unapologetic Aging: How to Mend and Nourish Your Relationship with Your Body. It's out December 16. That makes it a fantastic holiday gift for any midlife person and beyond midlife person in your life. What else? How can we find you and support your work? What else can we do? DebWell I have a Substack called Unapologetic Aging and you can find me by my name. I am most commonly found on social media on Instagram, but you can find me anywhere, just by my name, Deb Benfield.VirginiaThank you so much for being here. Deb, DebI just want to say one more thing about purchasing the book. The last time we were together, we talked a lot about grandmothers and mothers and the generations, and I think my book is the perfect gift for your mother, If you're trying to have this conversation. VirginiaI agree with that. All the Burnt Toasties who write to me and say, "What do I do about the thing my mom says?" This is what you do.DebAnd have a conversation. VirginiaAbsolutely. Thank you so much for being here. DebThis was really wonderful. Thanks for having me. 🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith (follow me on Instagram) and Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, and Big Undies.The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.Our theme music is by Farideh.Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!Support Anti-Diet Journalism!

Welcome to Indulgence Gospel After Dark!We are Virginia Sole-Smith and Corinne Fay, and it's time for your November Extra Butter episode.Today we're talking about our problematic faves! These are shows, musicians, influencers and other pockets of culture that we want to enjoy without thinking much about them, even if there's discourse. We'll get into: Our favorite Bad Skinny Girl TV shows. The straight man who has Corinne's heart. Is Virginia a pick-me girl now? And so many more!!! To hear the whole thing, read the full transcript, and join us in the comments, you do need to be an Extra Butter subscriber. If you haven't joined us yet — we've extended your Burnt Toast gift access deadline! Check your email for "claim your free month by 11/20!" And do it TODAY! Join Extra Butter🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈Episode 219 TranscriptCorinneToday, we're going to do a fun little episode where we talk about problematic faves...although it's a little more nuanced than that. This is kind of inspired by a TikTok by Caro Claire Burke. She also has a Substack, and a podcast which we love. Caro says: The inherent flaw of a platform like TikTok, for a cultural critic like me, but also just for anyone, is that you look on someone's feed and you only see the shit they care about. And you get the impression that this person is constantly, chronically online, and that they care about everything. And that makes me feel tired with other people, and it makes me feel really tired with myself. So I thought I would cleanse my feet a little bit by sharing five things I couldn't be bothered to care about, five things where I constantly go, it's not that deep—even though it probably is that deep—as a means of just creating a small sanctuary for myself in a world that is rapidly falling to shit. And her list includes the Skims Merkin, discourse about whether protesting is cringe, her own marriage, and Hailey Bieber.VirginiaInteresting choice for her to put her own marriage on the list. I honestly respect it. CorinneIt's like, if it's working, don't look at it too hard, you know?VirginiaI love this whole concept. I think Caro does great work. But it was a really hard assignment for me! Because we are so chronically online and we care and we dissect everything. I think it's a good exercise though. Not because we don't want to hold problematic people accountable, but because we do get to be people, and sometimes just exist and just let something exist. Okay, so you're like, cringe-ing, a little every time I say problematic fave. Is that just because it's a very overused term, or because you think that's not quite what we're doing?CorinneGood question. I feel like the things on my list aren't necessarily problematic? Or they're not problematic yet, but I don't want to look too deeply into this, you know? I want to let it be something I enjoy, and not have to wrestle with it. I think there's also a way in which we try so hard to do things right with consumerism, like, boycott the right brands and shop for things in the correct way, or hold people accountable. And yes, we should do that. We should try to make the world a better place. And, it's exhausting, and we can't realistically do everything right all the time.VirginiaI think that's really fair. Maybe the other reason these aren't quite problematic faves is we are not naming people or institutions...Oh wait, I might be? But we're trying not to name people or institutions who have a known track record of already being wildly offensive in some way. But we see the potential for them to go in that direction. Now that I said that, there are a couple on my list that are already maybe problematic. So we'll get there. But it's different from being like, "this person is a well established problem, and I just find them delightful anyway." It's more like, oh, this could be a thing, but let's not overthink it right now.  I feel like this is a little like brain break we all need.CorinneOkay, the first one that came to mind for me was TV related. I feel like there's a certain genre of show that I like to watch that is very fluffy, very detached from reality, or at least my reality, and I just like to watch it. So I just can't really get that much into the discourse. And I'm talking about shows like Emily in Paris, And Just Like That, the Sex in the City reboot. I just want to zone out and watch them.VirginiaI mean, we did do a Live all about how bad the final season of And Just Like That, was. CorinneIt's true. VirginiaSo we did contribute to the discourse. And I totally agree with you. We were like, well we're watching it anyway!CorinneAnd now that it has been canceled, I do feel a real loss.VirginiaTurns out I do want to see women in their 50s wearing absolutely absurd outfits and spending far too much money on cocktails. Where else are we going to find that in our lives? My first one is also TV-related and very adjacent. I put down Nobody Wants This, the Kristen Bell, Adam Brody romcom, but this is a whole genre, I think. And Just Like That, Emily in Paris, Nobody Wants This. There are so many! I call them Bad Skinny Girl TV.CorinneOh, wow. I mean, Emily in Paris is absolutely Bad Skinny Girl TV.VirginiaThe thing I have to be mindful of with these shows is, if I watch too many, too constantly, it can trigger some body stuff. That's my one legit flag on these shows. If you look at too many really skinny, pretty Hollywood actresses, sometimes it starts to get into your brain a little. So, you know, be mindful about that. But otherwise, it's like Nobody Wants This...the second season was so dumb. It was so dumb, it was just a retread. CorinneI didn't even know there was a second season. VirginiaMy 12 year old and I just binged it. Kristen Bell plays a just sort of unlikable main character. But because it's Kristen Bell, you're along for the ride regardless. She's being immature and making strange choices and wearing so many odd shirts. I don't really understand who chose the shirts for that show. They always have weird holes in them, or, like, barely cover her torso in some complicated way? And yet I was like, yeah, seems greatCorinneNow that we're saying this. I'm also thinking abotu how I love to watch all the detective, cop, FBI, CIA, MI5 shows. Also extremely problematic. Propaganda for evil forces.VirginiaACAB, except for TV cops? CorinneI know in my heart these are forces for evil. And, like, I love to watch them on TV. VirginiaWe will solve this murder.CorinneI'm rooting for the detective.VirginiaThese shows I'm talking about also often do often have some thinly veiled, or not-so-veiled fatphobia. And I am just, for the most part, able to just sail on through it. I will also put something like Gilmore Girls in this category. There is a valuable cultural discourse around Gilmore Girls. There's a lot about it that doesn't age well. And it will still be a comfort watch for me forever. All right, what's next for you?CorinneAll right. Well, this came up when we were discussing doing this episode. I was like, "Oh, I'm gonna have to really think about what mine are..." And you were like, "Yours is The Gap." And to be clear: The Gap does not make my size. I cannot wear clothes from The Gap. And yet, I'm constantly looking at their website. I like their clothes, and I feel like I've recommended them to you, Virginia, because I'm like, "well if you can wear them, you might as well." Like, I'm not interested in being mad at The Gap for not making my size.VirginiaYou’re like "They get a pass, their advertising is so charming."CorinneI think with The Gap specifically, I have some deep-seated childhood stuff, because The Gap factory outlet was the closest real clothing store to where I grew up. It was just where I just wanted to go. VirginiaIt was the beacon of fashion and culture in 1990s Maine.CorinneBut I do feel like I maybe have this more broadly with clothes where I'm just kind of like, "if they make something and it fits you, you should wear it."VirginiaBecause the options are so slim. And I think I'm always like, "No, I have a responsibility as someone who can wear this brand, because I should be trying to put my money towards the brands that are more size inclusive."And I think that's true, and I'm wearing a pair of Gap jeans while we record this conversation. But I hear you, you're like, "I have nostalgia for this brand. The clothes are cute." Why are you going to waste energy being mad at The Gap for not being better. There are just other hills to die on? But also, Gap, make plus size clothes! Old Navy is doing it. CorinneIt's so dumb. It's truly just boggling.VirginiaYou're the same company. If they can do it, you can do it. I just really believe you can. So I am mad at The Gap, but Corinne is giving them a pass.CorinneWhat else do you have?VirginiaOkay, my next ones are the home design influencers Chris and Julia Marcum. They are @chrislovesjulia on Instagram. To be clear, I've written a think piece about Julia Marcum, so I have applied the discourse to her. And I continue to follow them. And it's weird, because their aesthetic is not my aesthetic. I don't know how familiar you are with their content?CorinneI'm not familiar. I'm only familiar with them because I've heard you mentioned them so many times.VirginiaOkay so quick backstory: The Marcums are Mormon home design influencers. They live in North Carolina now, where they moved for her health from Idaho, which has a complicated backstory. And they have three daughters and a really pretty Bernese mountain dog. Their current home is enormous. The previous home was enormous. They live in these enormous homes, which she's decorating as if they were historic mansions? Her taste is so intense. Just click around at some of the visuals and you'll see what I mean. And it is a hyper level of overconsumption. I experience the ick regularly while looking at her content. I'm like, oh she's already put in a 30 foot long marble kitchen island, what more can she add? And then she does. They just bought a lake house they're going to start renovating that is bigger than most people's homes they live in. It's this just excessive display of wealth and consumerism. And I'm fascinated by it, and have purchased more than one item she has recommended.CorinneBecause it's not a hate follow or hate watch?VirginiaWell, they are a problematic fave. I think they are actively problematic. I think they are representing the peak of influencer culture, where they're constantly pushing Amazon Prime stuff, they're constantly pushing Wayfair, they're constantly rolling out a new product line to sell you. They're very much pushing the idea that your house should be a level of perfect that none of us can actually sustain. That you should always be renovating every room. They renovated their entire living room, and then re-renovated the entire room. Every room is always getting done in this super intense manner. It's bad![Post-recording note: Actually, they painted and decorated their living room, to a degree that most of us would have said was "done." And then fully renovated the same space.]CorinneAnd you look at it and you're like, yeah, I am going to buy that.VirginiaI'm like, it's so cozy. It's not even my taste! I just, I don't know something about it is weirdly soothing.CorinneHow did you discover these people? VirginiaI don't know how I discovered her. I mean, I follow a lot of home design content. I like home design. It's a soothing hobby of mine. But I have realized it's a tricky hobby to have on the Internet, because influencing as a business model makes it always, more and more and more in this way that's tricky. You should see their backyard. They have this outdoor kitchen that could seat 12. It's wild. CorinneThe dream. VirginiaIt's not even! But it is weirdly addictive. CorinneOkay. My next one is Chapell Roan. VirginiaI was going to put her on my list, but I couldn't really think of anything problematic about her! CorinnePeople are constantly getting mad at her on TikTok, I can't even remember why. It's like, she complains, and then people get mad that she's complaining, and I just can't. I'm just like, "Leave her alone."VirginiaYeah, I'm not following that at all. That's not interesting to me.CorinneIt just happens periodically.VirginiaOh, because she did the whole thing about, like, "I'm not going to talk to you if you say hi to me in public?"CorinneThat was one. It's happened a few times. Occasionally she'll get mad about something, or get worked, up about something, and then will post kind of a ranty TikTok, and then people have a big backlash to that, and I just can't. VirginiaOh my god, she's a 26-year-old pop sensation. Just let her be, let her be herself.CorinneI feel the same about Sabrina Carpenter. I like her. Sorry. Everyone hated that album cover. I don't care. I just can't. I wrote a Substack post about it. I don't care. I think the album cover is fine. I like her music. I think she's really cute and funny. VirginiaThere was take after take on the Sabrina Carpenter album. Can we not? CorinneI just love her.VirginiaI mean, this is reminding me of that great chapter in Samantha Irby's most recent book, where she talks about liking something that people think is bad and that she's just like, "Well, I like it." No follow up. And the power of just being like, "Well, I like that bad thing."CorinneDefinitely how I felt about And Just Like That.VirginiaClearly not how I feel about Chris Loves Julia, but maybe it should be? Anyway, yeah, Sabrina Carpenter. Chappell Roan is constantly playing over here. I'm not interested in investigating further. All right, my next one is definitely inspired by this is one of the things that I've taken from the Julia Marcum aesthetic. But it is also its own standalone trend. She's just one of the influencers pushing it, which is porch pumpkins. Are you aware of the porch pumpkins craze? CorinneIs this just like putting a pumpkin on your porch? VirginiaNo, it's putting piles of pumpkins on your porch. CorinneOh, okay, I have seen people do that.VirginiaWait, there was a Wall Street Journal article. I'll find it.CorinneWhen I see people do this, I'm like, I'm tired. I don't have the energy to be stacking pumpkins on my porch.VirginiaAccording to the WSJ, "Families are paying north of $1,000 to create Insta perfect tableaus for porches and yards." CorinneOkay, so how much did you pay for your pumpkin stylist?VirginiaLet me tell you about me and my porch pumpkins. I've been craving this look for a few years, ever since Julia Marcum first posted it. And she bought fake pumpkins, which she just keeps on hand and brings out every year to make her pile of pumpkins. And I was like, well, that's actually a more like responsible way to do it, right? To buy and reuse your pumpkins every year? Except then I priced out her pumpkin collection, and it was like, $800 and I said to my then-husband, like, should I buy all these pumpkins? And he said, no. CorinneAnd that's why you got divorced.VirginiaExactly, yes. No — he was right. But every fall, I'm like, I kind of wish I had that. It looks pretty. I'm not going to spend that money, but it does look cool. So then this year the kids wanted to get pumpkins. And so Jack and I took them to a little local pumpkin patch, and I discovered the trick is to go the Saturday before Halloween. The pumpkins are on deep discount. And I now have 14 pumpkins on my front porch that I spent only $70 on.Corinne14 pumpkins is a lot. VirginiaIt is a lot! They just kept giving us more. I paid $70 for maybe, like, seven pumpkins. And I was still like, well, $10 a pumpkin. We'll feed them to the chickens. Jack's like, I can bake something with this cheese pumpkin. I was like, it's it's fine. And then they were like, here. Take more. Take more. I was like, well, now the pumpkins are basically paying me to be on my porch.CorinneSo funny. VirginiaI think it looks delightful and harvest-y, and I like that. It's a trend that works for both Halloween and Thanksgiving. So you can leave it up for a while. And then you could feed the pumpkins to your chickens, or bake with them, if that was the type of person you were, or throw them in your woods and let the deer eat them, which is what I would also do. CorinneWhen I was at my mom's house in Maine, we did get a pumpkin for her front steps, and it immediately got eaten by squirrels.VirginiaAnother reason to wait until the Saturday before Halloween. So you're not trying to make this trend last all fall. I think it's also like, at this time of year, I'm getting sad about the leaves falling. I'm getting sad about the coming cold, anything that makes me like anything better. It's a pile of pumpkins. They're pretty, that's all.CorinneThey are. The pumpkins in this photo are very beautiful. VirginiaYeah, no, that's the key. You don't just get orange pumpkins, you get the Cinderella pumpkins, the fancy gourds and whatnot.CorinneAnd also, how is this WSJ article/photo, leaving out the fact that there are 14 foot tall skeletons in the background?VirginiaYes, in that photo, they are also doing the very tall skeletons, which is a trend I'm not on because I don't know where to store it. Where does one store the 12-foot skeleton the rest of the year?CorinneI don't know. And those are also like $500, I think.VirginiaThey're not cheap. That's like $2,000 in Halloween decorations just on their porch. It's a commitment. And I didn't go that route, but I just enjoy it. That's all.CorinneDid you put them out and step back and rearrange them? VirginiaI sure did. CorinneOkay, my next one is Tom Colicchio from Top Chef. I love to watch Top Chef. I find Tom Colicchio delightful. Do you watch Top Chef? You don't. VirginiaI know nothing about him. He's a person who exists in the world, is what I know.CorinneHe's a chef. He is a host of Top Chef. He's a little like, tough love, you know? He's very critical. He'll really tell you what's working or not. But he also is a heart of gold, good guy. And I don't want to know if he's a bad person in real life. I find him very lovable. VirginiaYou don't want there to be a scandal.CorinneI'm queer, but I'm very here for Tom Colicchio. He's balding. He's always wearing weird hats and stuff. I just love him.VirginiaThat's adorable. Wait, I have to Google him so I have a face. CorinneHe's not like, a hot guy. At least I don't think so. VirginiaI need to know what man attracts Corinne. Ok, ok I get it.CorinneI would not necessarily say he's my type.VirginiaWell and he's 63, he's a little old for you. CorinneHe is, and I think he's happily married. I just find him lovable.VirginiaWell, I think that's great to just unequivocally love a straight, white man. How often can we say that? That's a good one. All right, between porch pumpkins and Mormon home design people and now what I'm about to say, I am just really outing myself as a bougie suburban mom. It is what it is. But my next one is the Starbucks drive through. I do love the Starbucks drive through. It is not environmentally friendly. It is not a company I feel good about giving dollars to. I do boycott them when people remind me about the boycott. But when I am doing my mom thing, running errands, getting kids to places, the Starbucks in our town is right near where we go for doctor's appointments, and sometimes you need a cake pop or an egg bite to get you through a medical thing. And that's right there with the coffee.CorinneWhen I saw this on the outline, I was like, am I going to admit that I also love the Starbucks drive-through. VirginiaPlease do! Solidarity. CorinneI am going to admit that, and I will say I did boycott them for a while because of the unionization stuff, and my solution to that now has been to go to the Starbucks in my town that is unionized. So I will say you can look up if there's a unionized Starbucks near you. Worth looking into. VirginiaI'm sure there's not. [Post-recording note: But there is in NYC!]CorinneAnd I did just double check and they're not on the BDS list, which I thought they were.VirginiaThat makes me feel a little better.CorinneI know. I love to go to a cool local coffee shop. And then sometimes I just want that sugary stuff. I also never know the sizes. I'm always like, can I have the large and they're like, venti? But I want, like, the tall, sweet, milky drink.VirginiaJack is not a Starbucks guy at all, and does not speak Starbucks. And we went to Starbucks when we were traveling, and my whole family orders all of our complicated drinks. And he's just like, can I just have a black coffee? And they were like, what?CorinneI feel like you can get him into it. VirginiaAll our complicated drinks came out, and they were like, a coffee? Did you say you wanted a black coffee? It took them, like, an hour to just make him a regular. CorinneI know. There’s a whole thing. I feel like fast food restaurants you have to, like, learn how to order from them.VirginiaYou have to speak the lingo. When I'm dealing with my voice stuff, which I periodically am, people can probably hear I'm a little raspy today. The medicine ball at Starbucks, which is an off menu item, is a really good get if you're having a sore throat.CorinneYeah, I will also say they're incredible for traveling. When I'm doing road trips, I'll often go in the morning, because they open at 5 or 6.VirginiaAnd you can get something predictable, like, you know what it's going to be, and you know you can eat their egg sandwich.CorinneI also want to add that I know a lot of them do actually pay better than smaller coffee shops and offer a lot of benefits that small businesses don't or can't.VirginiaI feel that information is both excellent to have, and not in the spirit of this episode. CorinneTrue.VirginiaBecause now you are discoursing Starbucks. CorinneI'm so sorry. I really am. VirginiaIt's okay. I discoursed Julia Marcum quite a bit. It's hard to talk about these things without discourse. I also just want to say drive-throughs in general are such a help to parents or anyone caregiving, because you can get the thing you need and not have to get the kids out of the car. My kids are old and they can get themselves in and out of the car, but in my infant/toddler years, oh man. I was like, Why can't everything be drive through?CorinneAlso for driving cross country with a dog. I don't want to leave her in the car if it's 100 degrees, but I do need to get food. VirginiaI do need to eat! So this is how we do it. So, drive-throughs are bad for the environment and also great sometimes. CorinneOkay, the last one on my list is Lizzo. VirginiaWhoa, problematic fave. Sorry, she is.CorinneI know, but I like her music, and I find her charming and delightful, even when she's talking about diets on podcasts. I'm just like, okay, I feel I can ignore it. VirginiaWell, look. If we're going to look past the flaws of our Bad, Skinny Girl TV, why wouldn't we look past the flaws of Black, fat women, you know what I mean? She deserves the same pass.CorinneThat is how I feel.VirginiaI love her music. My eight year old loves her music because she learned the word bitch from it. And she  likes to use the word bitch, and then be like, "I'm saying it in the Lizzo way, Mama." CorinneOh, that's funny.VirginiaAll right, speaking of my kids, I brought up this whole concept at dinner last night because I was trying to brainstorm my list. And I was like, guys, you have to help me think of my problematic faves. And I said, maybe the Eagles / NFL is a new problematic fave? Which I've gotten into because of Jack. And Jack was immediately like, yep, yep, it's super problematic, and I love it. So Jack's a huge Eagles fan. I've started watching Eagles games with him. I don't know what's happening, but I'm here for the player gossip and the sort of general world of it, which I find interesting. And I'm usually reading a book or doing something else while we're watching, but I like it. And I said at dinner, "Well, it's not like I really understand what's going on with the sport. I just kind of like the atmosphere of it."And my 12 year old goes, "Mama, now you're being a pick me girl!" And I was like, wait, am I? What's a pick me girl? And she said, "You're like, 'I don't know what's going on with the sport. Like, only boys really understand it. But I just like it, I guess.' That's such a pick me girl thing to do. You only like it because your boyfriend does!"CorinneI do think there's a pick me thing about being into sports because boys are into sports.VirginiaWell, I'm 44 and I've never before in my life attempted to like sports at all. And she was like, yeah, that makes it worse. It'd be different if you'd always liked it. Because my dad's side of the family is really into football. She's like, "You never watched it growing up with Granddad." I was like, no, I sure didn't. Wasn't a pick me girl then. CorinneWow. Called out.VirginiaCalled out. Middle schoolers are brutal. I was like,"Does my feminist credibility get me off the hook on this at all?" And the eight-year-old wants me to add that once they understood the concept of a pick me girl, they now co sign that Mama is being a pick me girl about football and no, being a good feminist does not erase that.CorinneGetting ganged up on! I do think sports is a good example of this, though. VirginiaI mean, the NFL is a mess. We were watching a game last week where this guy on the Giants broke his full foot off?! It was terrible. And he's like 20-something, and probably his football career just ended. CorinneThat's really awful.VirginiaAnd Jack told me the NFL is a 501c3, which seems wrong. They make quite a lot of money. I don't think they should be a nonprofit.[Post-recording note: They were actually a 5016b and gave up that status in 2015, but the point still stands.]CorinneYeah, that is confusing. VirginiaNot great. But Eagles does have an Autism Research Foundation, so that's nice. And I've noticed a lot of, a lot of feminist Hollywood people I like, really like the Eagles. Quinta Brunson is a huge Eagles fan. Also, Hannah Einbender from Hacks, said "Go birds" in her Emmy acceptance speech, along with "Free Palestine." And I was like, yep, here for both those things. So a lot of cool people like the Eagles.CorinneThe Eagles do seem like the the team to back.VirginiaThey're like the progressive team. I mean, until they're not, because it's football, and they trade the players around all the time. I don't know. I truly don't understand the sport at all, which apparently, again, is making it worse. CorinneI feel like, eventually you'll start. VirginiaI mean, I can't underscore enough that I did grow up in a football family, and none of it ever penetrated, so I had a lot of chances. I'm enjoying it more now.CorinneI'm into football for the snacks.VirginiaYes, I'm enjoying the food and, the Sunday afternoon ritual of it. On a Sunday afternoon, I just want to lay on the couch and chill. So sure, it could be football. It could be bad skinny girl TV. I'm just letting it wash over me totally and eating good snacks. ButterVirginiaOkay should we switch to non-problematic faves and do some Butter? CorinneYes, absolutely. What's your Butter?VirginiaMy Butter is that it is time to plant your fall bulbs. If you have not done it already. I really recommend everybody do some bulb planting. No matter how nascent of a gardener you are, you can't fuck up bulb planting. Like, get a bag of daffodil bulbs and dig some holes and put, three bulbs in each hole and cover them up. And that's all you have to do. CorinneWow. Maybe I should do that! VirginiaIt's so easy. It's very foolproof gardening. Bulbs are really like, you don't have to water. You just stick them in the ground. It doesn't even matter if you get them right side up, they figure it out underground. They're like, oh, I'm upside down. I'll flip around somehow. I don't know how they do it, but they'll be fine. And then in the spring, you're going to have daffodils, and you're going to be so happy. CorinneThat is a good Butter.VirginiaI try to plant them every year. Last fall I skipped and I regretted it. Critters do eat some, but daffodils are pretty bulletproof. And also alliums, nobody really wants to eat them. So those are my recommendations. Do some bulb planting. CorinneCool. That's a good rec. I'm going to recommend a recipe which is Korean BBQ style meatballs from New York Times Cooking. It's a really good recipe. It's very easy. It's a low lift. It's ground beef, crushed ritz crackers, scallions, soy sauce, garlic. And you basically just mash that all together, make it into little balls and then bake it. And it's very filling and delicious, and goes with any kind of carb-y thing you want to serve it with. I've been eating it with potatoes. VirginiaThis sounds awesome,.CorinneIt's just delicious and satisfying and easy.VirginiaAll right, I want people to tell us what their problematic--I'm sorry I don't have a better term--what their problematic faves are, what their moments of culture where you are unavailable for discourse. You just want to enjoy it. What are yours? Put them in the comments! I feel like we may need to do a master list of delightful favorite things. 🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith (follow me on Instagram) and Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, and Big Undies!The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.Our theme music is by Farideh.Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!

Kaila Yu, an author and culture writer from Los Angeles, shares insights from her debut memoir, exploring the complex realities of Asian female representation. She delves into the societal pressures of beauty standards and the objectification experienced through the white male gaze. Kaila discusses her experiences with modeling, the impact of cosmetic surgery, and the dark origins of beauty norms. Through her journey of sobriety and therapy, she reclaims her relationship with beauty, emphasizing personal autonomy over societal expectations.

Welcome to Indulgence Gospel After Dark!We are Virginia Sole-Smith and Corinne Fay, and it's time for your October Extra Butter episode. Today we're talking about plus size fashion influencer and body acceptance advocate Katie Sturino — who teamed up with WeightWatchers last year. What happened there? And where is the line between body liberation activism and capitalism? (Yes, we struggle with that too!) To hear the whole thing, read the full transcript, and join us in the comments, you do need to be an Extra Butter subscriber. Join Extra Butter! Already an Extra Butter subscriber, and having a hard time getting this episode in your podcast player of choice? Step by step instructions are here! Episode 217 TranscriptCorinneWelcome to Indulgence Gospel After Dark! If you're listening to this, you are part of Extra Butter, which means you're our favorite Burnt Toasties. VirginiaYour support makes all our work possible and keeps Burnt Toast an ad- and sponsor free space. Which is relevant to today's conversation! CorinneToday, we're going to talk about influencer and advocate Katie Sturino, who became famous on Instagram for her #SuperSizeTheLook content and for creating the Megababe product line. But more recently, she teamed up with Oprah and Weight Watchers, and has gone public about her use of GLP-1s.VirginiaSo before we get into it, let me do my standard caveat that I give anytime we do one of these episodes where we talk about a particular person's work in deal. Body autonomy is a given at Burnt Toast. Katie has the right to take her GLP-1s. That is her business. We're not interrogating that personal decision. We are also not "women tearing down other women," which is the other go-to critique of this work. We're considering Katie's entire body of work here, and we're asking: Is this true body liberation activism? Or is this an example of capitalism co-opting activism? I think that's a valuable question for anyone in the influencing space to be grappling with. I think Corinne and I both walk that line as well in our work. So we are going to critique Katie and some of the professional choices she's made but this is a lens we all benefit from looking through. CorinneWith that, I feel that I need to disclose that I have received gifted products from Megababe.VirginiaFor example! It’s a gray area, guys. I have not, but I would have been happy to receive that gift. CorinneI recommended stuff from Megababe before I ever received free stuff! But I have received free stuff. And I do like some of their products. VirginiaThis episode is also not going to be a critique of specific products. Preventing thigh chafing is a noble endeavor.So how did you first encounter Katie Sturino? Do you remember when you first became aware of her work?CorinneIt's honestly hard for me to remember because I feel like she's been around for so long!VirginiaLike 10 years.CorinneIf not more!VirginiaIt was the mid-2010s when she really came onto the scene.CorinneI definitely encountered her Instagram. I think it was her style content. I remember seeing her going into a store and trying on stuff that didn't fit, or trying their biggest size and it wouldn't work for her. And then I also remember the #SuperSizeTheLook.VirginiaFor folks who don't know: #SuperSizeTheLook is a series where Katie picks a photo of a celebrity wearing a really cute outfit, and then styles herself wearing the same outfit. Usually not in identical pieces, because the sizes are not going to work. But she mimics the outfit, and she mimics the pose really well. If it's a celebrity getting out of a town car with a purse on her arm, Katie will also be getting out of a town car. Or walking a tiny dog. She mimics the whole vibe of the photo. And the goal is to show you that bigger bodies look cute in clothes. Which is a message we're here for! CorinneWhat about you? How did you first encounter her?VirginiaWhat's interesting about Katie and me is that we are the same age, we are both 44. And we both come out of the New York media world. I learned this all researching the episode; I don't know her personally. I never worked with her. But we have sort of similar trajectories into body liberation work.And when she first launched, her blog was originally called The 12ish Style. I was also a size 12-ish. Those were my Midsize Queen years, before moving into full plus sizes. So we've had similar trajectories of being in this space first a mid-sized person, and then a small fat person. I've always been interested in her fashion and the way she styles stuff, because it was often quite directly relevant to my own body, though not necessarily relevant to everybody. She is also, like, a foot taller than me, I think? She seems quite tall in photos and she wears very tall heels, too, which is impressive to me, if not actually something I can pull off. But I've always appreciated the vibe and the energy of Katie's content.  She's very open book. A lot of her posts are shot in her underwear, wearing no makeup, in a swimsuit. She's always showing us, "Here's what my real body looks like." There are critiques to be made of this genre of content making, but I think it's also powerful to see non-airbrushed, not super thin bodies. I think there's a lot of value in that. So I knew Megababe, I knew #SuperSizeTheLook, but I didn't know a ton of her backstory. So I did a little research, and most of what I'm going to share with you comes from a New York Times piece that ran in June with the headline, What Katie Sturino Wants You to Know About Her Body (and Yours, Too). This is by Madison Malone Kircher and it ran June 22, 2025.We're going to get into it later in the episode, but Katie is not thrilled with this piece. And I just want to say I have empathy for being in the New York Times and not being thrilled with the way they cover your work. Can relate! So I am going to quote from the piece, because I think it makes some interesting points, and there's some useful context in there. But I'm not saying this piece does the best job analyzing her work. The New York Times describes Katie as "a dog-obsessed public relations pro turned body positivity influencer slash entrepreneur, who built a social media audience by posting candidly about her life."Katie began her career in fashion PR. I think her first job was at Gucci or Dolce Gabbana. She then started her own PR firm in the 2010s. And then found found Internet fame as a dogager, which is a dog manager, running an Instagram account for her Cavalier King Charles Spaniel named Toast. So this is how she started. Did you know she was a dog influencer before she was a fashion influencer?CorinneI think I do vaguely remember that.VirginiaToast has since passed away. RIP Toast. Great name for a dog, obviously. But I did not know that she started as a dog influencer. That was news to me, and, frankly, rather delightful. But: Coming from a PR background, finding Internet fame through dog influencing...this is a very specific lens to which she's coming to this work. Katie is now a multi-hyphenate. She had a podcast called Boob Sweat. She wrote a non-fiction book Body Talk, which is an illustrated workbook about self love. She has a Substack newsletter. She has the Megababe the product line. And she published her first novel this spring. So Katie is very busy! She is doing a lot. Have you followed her for recs, or you've used Megababe? You like Megababe. CorinneI've used Megababe. I like Megababe. Her particular style has never quite been for me. It's hard to describe exactly what doesn't click for me. It's just very clear, even just reading the this bio—she's very savvy, she's always hustling, she always has kind of a business PR angle, which I both respect and don't relate to.VirginiaThis is her New York media roots. I never worked with Katie, but I worked with lots of Katies. I know this kind of hard-charging woman who's extremely smart and great at marketing and knows how to build a brand and talk to an audience. So she has that whole skill set—and she could be doing it about body positivity, she could be doing it about a dog. She's interested in building a brand. For example, let's consider her first novel Sunny Side Up. Katie tells the New York Times that she worked with a ghost writer: "I don't have the traditional path that a lot of people who write books have had, and I needed help," she said, adding she felt no shame or embarrassment about having a collaborator."I love how upfront she is about that. A lot of books are written by ghostwriters, and I sort of wish people were more aware of that. Mine were not. But I have been a ghost writer! So I don't mind that that's a part of it, but I do think that it's interesting that it wasn't Katie had a novel inside her that she was dying to write. It was that Katie knew that having a novel would be a good brand extension. And the novel is about a plus size fashion influencer who goes on to launch a plus size swimsuit line. And... Katie's plus size swimsuit line came out this summer right after the book launch.CorinneIt's honestly mind boggling. How does anyone handle all that?VirginiaYes, it's so many things. And it does make me take a slightly different look at some of her some of her body positive content. For example, a recurring theme is her in a swimsuit. And the caption is always something like, "figured you could use a size 18 woman in a swimsuit on your feed," just showing her normal body in a swimsuit. But now that I know she's selling the swimsuits that hits differently. So is that just a smart swimsuit marketing strategy or does it feel off to you? CorinneI mean, both? She seems incredibly smart. I'm just impressed that anyone can do as much as she's doing. And: I do think sometimes it feels like you're being sold to, you know?VirginiaAnd because her work is centered around a message that has a social justice component, and a self-help component: Where is the line between "these are her values, and she's built a business on her values, "and "she's co-opting advocacy rhetoric to sell us products?"CorinneIt's definitely a gray area. VirginiaTo further the gray area: I looked at more of her content and I'm also like, these swimsuits are pretty cute. There's also this whole Wirecutter piece I want to talk about, where she goes over her fashion favs. It's good! I clicked through so many links. I was like, "Do I want these $460 jeans? I don't know!"CorinneOh now I want to see them.VirginiaYet I'm also thinking: But you are supposed to be so raw and authentic, and this is your whole vibe, and you're showing us yourself in a swimsuit, because that's supposed to feel brave. First of all, that's problematic in and of itself. Can it stop being brave for fat women to wear swimsuits in public? I would love that to not be a heroic move anymore, but in Katie Sturino's world it is radical to do that, and she's doing it. And... she's selling us the swimsuit.CorinneWell I think there are a lot of ways in which Katie is a very acceptable spokesperson for this messaging. VirginiaSay more about that.CorinneWell, first of all, she has a background in PR. And I think, even at her biggest she's...VirginiaShe's glamorous.CorinneShe's pretty, and she has a certain style. She looks wealthy, I want to say.VirginiaWell, she sure is, because guess who officiated at their wedding? Former mayor of New York City, and friend of her family, Michael Bloomberg.CorinneOh, okay, yeah.VirginiaThis is from the New York Times: "In addition to their apartment in Chelsea, the couple splits their time between homes in Palm Beach, Florida and Maine."CorinneI mean, they are definitely in a different tax bracket than myself.VirginiaSo yes. Wealthy. CorinneBut there are also people who are wealthy and wear Blundstones and barn jackets, you know? She's wearing blazers and heels.VirginiaA lot of pantsuits.Corinne A lot of jewelry. And she's always on vacation somewhere tropical.VirginiaYeah, in an amazing caftan. She's leaning into glam.CorinneShe looks polished. VirginiaShe's very polished. It's very New York City. Like, Sex and the City vibes. She could hang out with Carrie Bradshaw and she would totally fit in with them at one of those fancy lunches. And that's cool. That's her aesthetic. It's also representative of a certain socioeconomic privilege level. This is something that I saw frequently in women's magazines, and something I talked about when Jenn Romolini came on the podcast: So many people who work in New York City media, at the high levels, come from privilege. It is a very nepo-baby-driven industry. Because these are jobs that you have to do tons of unpaid internships to get. And/or work for no money as an assistant. The only way you can do that is if you have family money supporting your ability to access these industries. So it's not surprising to me that she comes from a privileged background, because she comes from PR and fashion, and that's who works in those industries.And I still think it's interesting and somewhat transgressive to be a woman in a larger body in that world. It helps me understand why it felt radical to be a size 12 dressing like a celebrity, because a size 12 in that world is an extremely non-normative body, right? This is the tier of people who have access to all the personal trainers, who are playing tennis all summer. There is no space to be a fat person in that world. So even at a size 12, it feels like, oh my gosh, your body is so other. The scale is just different when you move in these different spaces. So I can critique the space. I can be like, okay, you're friends with billionaires, and that's a hard place to be in a larger body of any kind. Did you take a look at the Wirecutter piece where she was giving a lot of like clothing recs and it's like advice for dressing as a plus size person?CorinneYes, I did take a look at it. She does have some good recs in there. I will say very expensive recs. Her preferred white t-shirt is $100.VirginiaAnd you're going to get spaghetti sauce on it so fast. CorinneIt's a weird vibe. VirginiaOkay, so now let's talk about Oprah and Weight Watchers. In 2024 Katie posted a critique of the first ABC special Oprah did about GLP-1s. And she gave a fairly nuanced critique. There was stuff she liked, there was stuff she didn't like, but she specifically said, "They came so close, and I wish Weight Watchers had fully apologized for the harm they had caused by pushing all of us to diet and want to change our bodies for so long." She was like, oh, they almost got it, but they didn't. And then in response, CEO Sima Sistani got on Instagram and did apologize. She did this speech of, you're right, Katie. I was wrong. Like, we've been wrong. We've done harm, and kind of fully walked into it. So what was your take when that all happened? CorinneTo be honest, I wasn't paying too much attention. But I do think the best apology from Weight Watchers would be them closing down, you know? It's very weird to me to be like, "Yes, we realize we've done harm, and we're just going to keep doing it."VirginiaWell, and what they were really apologizing for was selling a plan that didn't work and now they're selling GLP-1s. So it's, "We have the thing that'll work now!" As opposed to apologizing for trying to make us all do this in the first place. CorinneEven Katie going on Instagram and calling out the CEO— something like that, would just never occur to me, because I don't know, I just would never expect someone at Weight Watchers to respond or care. And I also think Weight Watchers is a microcosm, you know? It's like, sure, Weight Watchers has done harm, and they're just part of a bigger system. And you're not acknowledging that there's a bigger system there.VirginiaWell and Katie did get a response. Now, on the one hand, Katie has many more Instagram followers than you, so there's that piece of it. But I think it's an open question how planned this was, and whether they had talked ahead of time that Katie would critique and that Sima Sistani would publish her apology. Because I mean number one, no Weight Watchers CEO can just casually hop on her Instastories and apologize without having run the plan by many lawyers to make sure that she wasn't going to tank the business. So that had to have been planned, to some extent. And then the next piece of this is later last year, Katie had her own interview with Oprah in a different special, this one sponsored by Weight Watchers. And then she went on to host a podcast for Weight Watchers. So at some point, Katie got paid by Weight Watchers. Whether it was not until she hosted the podcast, or whether she was paid to be on the special with Oprah, or whether she was in a sponsorship deal with them when she asked for the apology, we don't know. But at some point, she moved from activist to on the payroll of a diet company.CorinneWasn't her response like, "Well, they were going to pay someone, it might as well be me? Or like it might as well be a plus size person." VirginiaWhat she said in the Oprah interview is, "If we don't have this conversation, if we don't insert our voice into this conversation, someone else will. Someone else will make those decisions for us." That's her argument. She wants to be in the room where it happens. She wants to be representing plus size people to these companies and with these companies. But she's not doing it pro-bono. She's not Tigress Osborne, Executive Director of NAAFA, depending on fundraisers to pay for plane tickets to places. She's doing this as a multi-hyphenate with three homes who's now getting a paycheck from Weight Watchers.CorinneYeah, it's so complicated. Because on the one hand, I can see her point. If Weight Watchers is going to be giving money to someone, it's kind of good that they would be giving some of it to fat people. So on the one hand capitalism, we're all kind of forced to sell out in some way, and on the other hand, you don't love to see it. VirginiaYou don't love to see it.CorinneEspecially when that person has three homes. VirginiaIt's a moment where I think her experiences of marginalization as a fat person erased her ability to see her privilege as a wealthy, white person. If Weight Watchers is going to pay fat people, Katie Sturino is not the person I need them to pay! I am not the person I need them to pay. Those of us in a certain tax bracket, living at a certain privilege level, are not the ones who need cash reparations from Weight Watchers. It's lower income folks who have paid to be in those meetings for years and years, who took their daughters to those meetings, who this company preyed on because it was an "affordable" approach to weight loss. And took their money over and over again every time they regained the weight and came back.CorinneWell, this is all is reminding me of the book Dietland.VirginiaBy Sarai Walker, friend of the show, yes.CorinneWhere the the heiress of the diet company is using profits from the diet company to do a type of reparations, vigilante justice. VirginiaI don't think that that's what's happening here.And I want to look a little bit at what Katie's defense has been around all of this. She's not afraid to talk very directly to haters who criticize her about her body. So in the New York Times piece, she disclosed that she's taking a GLP-1 for her own weight loss, and she then shared in a video that this was a medical decision, that she didn't really care if she lost weight or not that it was doing it to manage her A1C whatever. Again, that's Katie's business. I have no opinion about that. But she's in a smaller body now—not down to a size 12, but a mid-sized body now—and she's still pushing herself as a face of this movement. And that is a little bit complicated. She's talked about how it doesn't matter what size she is, she gets flack all the time. Like, when she was a size 12, she was too small to be representing body positivity. As a 22 people said she was too big. She's always, always, always getting constant comments about her bodies. And you know, that is really hard to deal with. That is not welcome feedback.And it is tricky that she has made her body very much her brand, I don't know, I struggle with this. It sounds like I'm saying she's asking for it, and I'm not. But you're posting content in swimsuits all the time. You're showing us your rolls, and then you're saying we shouldn't talk about people's bodies. Bodies are the least interesting thing about us. But her body is very interesting to her. She's making it a center of her work.CorinneI mean, you're making some points. It's hard to land in one way or another here. I do think the cost to being a public figure in the way that she is, in some ways, is people harassing you. And I think that's horrible and too high a cost. I also think she's made some really strange decisions, like working with Weight Watchers and still wanting to defend body neutrality or whatever.VirginiaYeah, she prefers body neutrality to body positivity, we should say and that's fine. I'm not attached to either term, to be honest. CorinneI feel like I always end up more confused than than I started on these subjects.VirginiaWhere did you start? CorinneI think where I started was Katie Sturino neutrality. Like I just sort of felt like she's not my people or whatever, and then I do feel kind of bad for her getting all this criticism and and then also I just feel, mad that people have so much money. But what do we do? I don't know.VirginiaI think it's complicated by her decision to take the Weight Watchers money. I think if she was just taking GLP-1s, that's her own business. Her body changing is her own business, even though she makes content that really centers her body. I would be backing her, like, yeah, that's not for people to interrogate your body. It's still your body, it's not your business. And I think she's walking a really complicated line by deciding to then also monetize her weight loss, by hooking up with Weight Watchers. That feels different, because she's promoting Weight Watchers, which means she's selling weight loss to other people. She's suggesting that these GLP1s are a good option for other people. Maybe she hasn't directly said those words, but she has done the Oprah special. She's lent them her brand, which has a lot of credibility. Someone said to me, l"I go out of my way to buy Megababe, even though it costs a little more than comparable products, because I want to support Katie. I want to back her work." People invest in her because they believe in her mission. CorinneThat's true.VirginiaAnd now she has attached that mission to Weight Watchers, which is selling GLP1s and obviously selling weight loss. That's where it loses me a little for her to then be like, how dare people talk about my body? You're literally selling this new version of your body. You're showing it to us because you're marketing this thing. That's where it gets really murky. On the other hand, there's a video that I'll link to where she talks quite a lot about how the internal work we need to do on body acceptance has nothing to do with the scale, and she does seem to really want to make the point that she feels very detached from her own weight loss numbers. That's not why she's on it. And she makes the point that if you don't do your own internal work, you can lose tons of weight, and you would still be miserable with your body. The weight loss is not a solution for body image struggles. And I think that's valuable. And I think there are a lot of people who listen to her who need to hear that. So I think that's useful. And it then is confusing that she's like, "But also Weight Watchers is great now."CorinneOne through line in a lot of her content is that it does feel like sometimes the bigger picture is missing, like the intersectionality. I'm not a super close follower, so maybe I'm just missing it. But I feel like I'm not seeing her do a ton of advocacy for other fat people.VirginiaWell, she really stays in her lane, which is fashion. I don't hear her talking about healthcare access, don’t hear her talking about workplace discrimination, housing discrimination. Definitely not how anti-fatness intersects with racism and other marginalization. I don't think that's a focus of hers. And in some ways, that's fine, and in some ways that shows, I think, that she's not here for a deep dive into the world of fat liberation. Okay, so our big Burnt Toast question that we ask in all these episodes: Is Katie Sturino a diet?CorinneYes?VirginiaShe is selling a diet...by working with Weight Watchers. CorinneAnd I think just by embodying a very narrow line of fatness.VirginiaShe is selling a specific image of acceptable fatness.CorinneWhat's your take?VirginiaI started this episode wanting to be able to say no, in part just because everybody expects me to say yes.CorinneI know I think I'm usually on the no side. VirginiaYeah, you're usually the no and I'm usually the yes. But I think the more we talk about it, I think I'm landing there as well. But I also think she's the embodiment of this larger issue, which is: So much activism happens through social media now. And social media is a business. It is where people are building brands and making money and that means that activism gets infused with business in these really messy ways. I think plus size fashion influencers as a category have really not done a great job with this, because we have seen this trajectory of using body positivity rhetoric, even fat liberation rhetoric, and centering fat joy, celebrating you look so great in all the clothes... and then forgetting all of the other work that goes along with that, and then if they manage to achieve body changes, very quickly changing their tune about how important all of this is. I don't think she's Rosey Beeme, who's like, "Forget I ever liked fat people." I don't think she's that at all, but I do think she has not done the work of intersectionality here. CorinneYeah. It kind of feels like a like microcosm of everything that's happening in the US right now. VirginiaFor sure, for sure.CorinneIt's hard to not just extrapolate out. VirginiaSo are we saying I should not order the $460 jeans?CorinneI mean, don't ask me on this stuff, because I'm always like I do want to know. I do want to know if they're good jeans. VirginiaI do want to know. I am curious!  CorinneThis would make a good Patreon post. VirginiaI don't know that they would fit me. I have to look at the size chart and figure out if it's like a Gap 35 or if it's like a designer brand 35.CorinneI feel like it depends on if they have stretch or not. I bet they do. Katie seems like someone who would be going for stretch jeans.VirginiaShe does also do all those underwear tests where she checks whether things rolls down. That's valuable content. CorinneShe is brave. She's doing the videos that personally I would not want to do.VirginiaYou don't see me on my in my underwear on the Internet. I mean, I am on WikiFeet, but that was not my choice. That's as scandalous as I get. All right. Well, that was a very interesting conversation. Listeners, we want to hear what you think. Where do you land on this one? Have you followed her work? Have you felt, had mixed feelings about the Weight Watchers of it all? Do you have a totally different take? You can tell us in the comments. ButterVirginiaOkay, my Butter, I gave you a little preview. You can tell because we're on Zoom together, and you can see a different background behind me. But I moved my desk to a different part of my–actually, not even a different part of my office. I moved it from being parallel with the wall to being kitty corner between two walls. And I'm so much more comfortable in my office! And I realized I had my desk too close to the wall and it was not size inclusive. I was always bumping up against the wall behind me, and what a dumb thing to do in one's home office where you have total control. I had just decided the desk needed to face a certain way. I don't know what made me think it was necessary. A lot of it is the pressure on having a good Zoom background? But I've decided unless I'm doing TV or something, I'm going to keep my desk in a more comfortable place. CorinneI think that's really reasonable. VirginiaAnd it just made me think: How many other small ways do we accept our homes or our cars or whatever not being comfortable for our bodies? Like this cost $0. I literally slid the desk over to make more room. Make more room for yourselves!CorinneTotally, it's so funny how hard that stuff is to notice sometimes.VirginiaI hadn't even realized that's why I was uncomfortable. I do also need a new desk chair. If people have desk chair recs, I want those in the comments as well. I really would like to know because I'm in a crappy West Elm ancient desk chair. It's like oddly off balance. It's not good for my lower back. But I want one that's not a million dollars and not ugly.CorinneGood luck with that. I'm also really admiring your Cape Cod collarless sweatshirt.VirginiaOh, my cut collar sweatshirt. It's really cute, right? It was too tight in the neck. It's pretty tight in the waist. I was debating maybe cutting that somehow too I haven't quite figured out. Like, if I cut off the band at the bottom and it's just sort of like, boxy, would that be cute? CorinneI think it would be cute. I think it'd be more cropped. VirginiaCorinne, what's your Butter?CorinneMy Butter is a Butter that has been Buttered before. It's Taskmaster. I know it has been mentioned by other burnt toast guests, but you know what it is, or?Virginia it's an app where people come and do things for you?CorinneNo, nope. That's TaskRabbit.VirginiaI was like, why are you recommending the gig economy? CorinneAnd I've actually had very mixed results with TaskRabbit. Not recommending that one. Someone blew up a light bulb on my ceiling. That's a story for another day. TaskMaster is a British TV show, there's a comedian host, and then there are like five comedian guests, and they get assigned psychotic tasks. Like, I don't know, like, open this paper bag without using your arms or some seemingly impossible task, and then you watch them do it, and they get ranked and get points. The first episode that I watched, I was laughing so hard, I was crying, peeing my pants, like my abs were sore. And it is just very easy to watch, like, you just laugh and it's funny.VirginiaI don't usually do reality TV with my kiddo for our show, yeah, but this does sound like a fun one to watch with her. CorinneYeah, I will say there's like, some mild--they're comedians, so there's some mild innuendo and stuff.VirginiaI mean, I think I'm going to write a whole essay about this, but I love watching inappropriate television with my children. I think it opens up many great conversations.CorinneGreat. Well, you should definitely watch it, though it's on YouTube, and I have been paying for seasons. But someone actually in the Burnt Toast chat today was saying that they watch it for free on YouTube. So now I'm confused. I really am enjoying Taskmaster.VirginiaWell, that's delightful, yeah, all right. Well, this was a great episode. Excited to hear what everyone thinks about. What furniture are you moving, what tasks are you completing, tell us in the comments. The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith (follow me on Instagram) and Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, and Big Undies!The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.Our theme music is by Farideh.Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!

You’re listening to Burnt Toast! I’m Virginia Sole-Smith. Today, my conversation is with Lisa Sibbett, PhD. Lisa writes The Auntie Bulletin, a weekly newsletter about kinship, chosen family and community care. As a long time Auntie herself, Lisa often focuses on the experiences of people without children who are nevertheless, in her words, "cultivating childful lives." We’ve been talking a whole bunch about community on Burnt Toast lately, and Lisa reached out to have a conversation about the systems that get in the way of our community building efforts—specifically our culture's systemic isolation of the nuclear family. This is one of those conversations that isn't "classic Burnt Toast." But we're here to do fat liberation work—and so how we think about community matters here, because community is fundamental to any kind of advocacy work. Plus it brings us joy! And joy matters too. I super appreciate this conversation with Lisa, and I know you will too.Join our community! Today’s episode is free! But don't forget, if you were a Substack subscriber, you have until October 28 to claim your free access to our paid content. Check your email for your special gift link! Episode 216 TranscriptLisaSo my newsletter is about building kinship and community care. I live in cohousing, and I’ve been an auntie for many years to lots of different kids. I’ve always been really involved in the lives of other people’s children. And people who have lives like mine, we often don’t really have even language for describing what our experience is like. It’s sort of illegible to other people. Like, what’s your role? Why are you here?And all of this has really blossomed into work that’s definitely about loving and supporting families and other people’s children, but I also write about elder care and building relationships with elders and building community and cohousing. And I have a chronic illness, so I sometimes write about balancing self-care and community care. VirginiaI have been an instant convert to your work, because a lot of what you write really challenges me in really useful ways. You have really made me reckon with how much I have been siloed in the structure of my life. It’s funny because I actually grew up with a kind of accidental–it wasn’t quite cohousing. We had two separate houses. But I was the child of a very amicable divorce, and my four parents co-parented pretty fluidly. So I grew up with adults who were not my biological parents playing really important roles in my life. And I have gotten to the point where I’m realizing I want a version of that for my kids. And that maybe that is just a better model. So it's fascinating to consider what that can look like when not everybody has those very specific circumstances. LisaIt’s a dreamy setup, actually, to have amicably divorced parents and extra parents.VirginiaI’m super proud of all of my parents for making it work. My sister —who is my half sister from my dad’s second marriage—has a baby now. And my mom made the first birthday cake for them. There are a lot of beautiful things about blended families. When they work, they’re really amazing. And it always felt like we were doing something kind of weird, and other people didn’t quite understand our family. So I also relate to that piece of it. Because when you say "cohousing community," I think a lot of folks don’t really know what that term means. What does it look like, and how does it manifest in practice? What is daily life like in a cohousing community? LisaThere are different synonyms or near neighbor terms for cohousing. Another one is "intentional community." Back in the day, we might think about it as kind of a commune, although in the commune structure, people tended to actually pool their finances. I would say that cohousing is a much more kind of hybrid model between having your own space and being up in each other’s spaces and sharing all of the resources. Join the Burnt Toast community! So I really think of cohousing as coming frpm where so many dreamy social policies come from: Scandinavia. In Denmark and I think other countries in Northern Europe there is a lot of intentional urban planning around building shared, communal living spaces where there are things like community kitchens and shared outdoor space for lots of different residences. So that’s kind of the model that cohousing in the US tends to come from. And sometimes it’s people living together in a house. Sometimes it’s houses clustered together, or a shared apartment building. It can look a lot of different ways. The shared attribute is that you’re attempting to live in a more communal way and sharing a lot of your familial resources. In my cohousing community, there are just three households. It’s really, really small. We really lucked into it. My partner and I were displaced due to growth in our city, and needed to find a new place to live. And we had been talking with some friends for years about hoping to move into cohousing with them. But it’s very hard to actually make happen. It takes a lot of luck, especially in urban environments, but I think probably anywhere in the United States, because our policies and infrastructure are really not set up for it. So we were thinking about doing cohousing with our friends. They were going to build a backyard cottage. We were thinking about moving into the backyard cottage, but it was feeling a little bit too crowded. And then my partner was like, "Well, you know, the house next door is for sale." So it was really fortuitous, because the housing market was blowing up. Houses were being sold really, really fast, but there were some specific conditions around this particular house that made it possible for us to buy it. So we ended up buying a house next door to our friends. And then they also have a basement apartment and a backyard cottage. So there are people living in the basement apartment, and then, actually, the backyard cottage is an Airbnb right now, but it could potentially be expanded. So we have three households. One household has kids, two households don’t, and our backyard is completely merged. We eat meals together four nights a week or five nights a week. Typically, we take turns cooking for each other, and have these big communal meals, and which is just such a delight. And if your car breaks down, there’s always a car to borrow. We share all our garden tools, and we have sheds that we share. There are a lot of collective resources, and availability for rides to the airport ,and that kind of thing. VirginiaThere are just so many practical applications! LisaIt’s really delightful. Prior to moving into cohousing, we never hosted people at all. I was very averse to the idea of living in shared space. I was really worried about that. But because we have our own spaces and we have communal spaces, it sort of works for different people’s energies. And I certainly have become much more flexible and comfortable with having lots of people around. I’m no longer afraid of cooking for 12 people, you know? So it just makes it a lot easier to have a life where you can go in and out of your introversion phases and your social phases.VirginiaI’m sure because you’re around each other all the time, there’s not the same sense of "putting on your outgoing personality." Like for introverts, when we socialize, there’s a bit of a putting on that persona.LisaTotally. It’s much more like family. We’re kind of hanging around in our pajamas, and nobody’s cleaning their houses. VirginiaYou have that comfort level, which is hard to replicate. It’s hard even for people who are good friends, but haven’t sort of intentionally said, "We want this in our relationship. "There are all those pressures that kick in to have your house look a certain way. This is something I’ve been writing about —how the hosting perfectionism expectations are really high. Messy House Hosting! LisaAbsolutely, yeah. And it’s just such an impairment for us to have to live that way.VirginiaFor me, it took getting divorced to reckon with wanting to make some changes. I mean, in a lot of ways, it was just necessary. There were no longer two adults in my household. The moving parts of my life were just more. I suddenly realized I needed support. But it was so hard to get over those initial hurdles. Almost every other friend I’ve had who’s gotten divorced since says the same thing. Like, wait, I’m going to ask people for a ride for my child? It’s this huge stumbling block when, actually, that should have been how we’re all parenting and living. But it really shows how much marriage really isolates us. Or, a lot of marriages really isolate us. Our beliefs about the nuclear family really isolate us and condition us to feel like we have to handle it all by ourselves. So I would love to hear your thoughts on where does that come from? Why do we internalize that so much? LisaVirginia, you’ve been cultivating this wonderful metaphor about the various things that are diets. VirginiaMy life’s work is to tell everybody, "everything is a diet."LisaEverything’s a diet! And I feel like it’s such a powerful metaphor, and I think it really, really applies here. The nuclear family is such a diet. You have done, I think, the Lord’s work over the last couple of years, helping us conceptualize that metaphor around what does it mean to say something is a diet? And the way that I’m thinking of the Virginia Sole-Smith Model of Diet Culture is that there’s an oppressive and compulsory ideal that we’re all supposed to live up to. If we’re not living up to it, then we’re doing it wrong, and we need to be working harder. And there’s this rewarding of restriction, which, of course, then increases demands for consumer goods and forces us to buy things. Then, of course, it also doesn’t actually work, right? And all of that is coming out of a culture of capitalism and individualism that wants us to solve our problems by buying stuff. VirginiaI mean, I say all the time, Amazon Prime was my co-parent.LisaI think the nuclear family is just part of that whole system of individualism and consumerism that we’re supposed to be living in. It really benefits the free market for us all to be isolated in these little nuclear families, not pulling on shared resources, so we all have to buy our own resources and not being able to rely on community care, so we have to pay for all of the care that we get in life. And that is gross. That’s bad. We don’t like that. And you also have written, which I really appreciate, that it’s a very logical survival strategy to adhere to these ideals, especially the farther away you are from the social ideal. If you're marginalized in any way, the more trying to adhere to these ideals gives us cover.To me, that all just maps onto the nuclear family without any gaps. Going back to your specific question about why is it so hard to not feel like in an imposition when you’re asking for help: We’re just deeply, deeply, deeply conditioned to be self reliant within the unit of the family and not ask for help. Both you and I have interviewed the wonderful Jessica Slice in the last few months, and she has really helped me.Jessica wrote Unfit Parent. She’s a disabled mom, and she has really helped me think about how interdependence and asking for help is actually really stigmatized in our culture, and the kind of logical extension of that for disabled parents is that they get labeled unfit and their kids get taken away. But there’s a whole spectrum there of asking for help as a weakness, as being a loser, as being really deeply wrong, and we should never do it. And we’re just, like, deeply conditioned in that way. VirginiaSpeaking of community care: My 12-year-old was supposed to babysit for my friend’s daughter this afternoon, she has like a standing Tuesday gig. And my younger child was going to go along with her, to hang out, because she’s friends with the younger kiddo. I was going pick them up later. But then we heard this morning that this little friend has head lice. And that did make the community care fall apart! LisaOh no. It’s time to isolate!  VirginiaWhile I want us all to be together....LisaThere can be too much togetherness. You don’t want to shave your head.VirginiaThat said, though: It was a great example of community care, because that mom and I are texting with our other mom friends, talking about which lice lady you want to book to come deal with that, and figuring out who needs to get their head checked. So it was still a pooling of resources and support, just not quite the way we envisioned anyway. LisaIt always unfolds in different ways than we expect.VirginiaBut what you’re saying about the deeply held belief that we have to do it all, that we’re inconveniencing other people by having needs: That myth completely disguises the fact that actually, when you ask for help, you build your bonds with other people, right? It actually is a way of being more connected to people. People like to be asked for help, even if they can’t do it all the time. They want to feel useful and valuable and and you can offer an exchange. This sounds so silly, but in the beginning I was very aware, like, if I asked someone for a ride or a play date, like, how soon could I reciprocate to make sure that I was holding up my end of the bargain? And you do slowly start to drift away from needing that. It’s like, oh no, that’s the capitalism again, right? That’s making it all very transactional, but it’s hard to let go of that mindset. LisaYeah, and it just takes practice. I mean, I think that your example is so nice that just over time, you’ve kind of loosened up around it. It's almost like exposure therapy in asking for help. It doesn’t have to be this transactional transaction.VirginiaAnd I think you start to realize, the ways you can offer help that will work for you, because that’s another thing, right? Like, we have to manage our own bandwidth. You wrote recently that sometimes people who aren’t in the habit of doing this are afraid that now I’ll have to say yes to everything, or this is going to be this total overhaul of my life. And  No. You can say no, because you know you say yes often enough. So talk about that a little bit.Community building for introverts!LisaAbsolutely. I come at this from a perspective of living with chronic illness and disability where I really need to ration my energy. I’ve only been diagnosed in the last few years, and prior to that I just thought that I was lazy and weak, and I had a lot of really negative stories about my lack of capacity, and I’m still unlearning those. But over the past few years, I’ve been really experimenting with just recognizing what I am capable of giving and also recognizing that resting is a necessary part of the process of being able to give. If I don’t rest, I can’t give. And so actually, I’m doing something responsible and good for my community when I rest. You know, whatever that resting looks like for me or for other people, and it can look a lot of different ways. Some people rest by climbing rocks. I am certainly not one of those people, but...VirginiaThat is not my idea of relaxation. LisaBut, whatever, it takes all kinds, right? And I think that the systems of community care are so much more sustainable the more that we are showing up as our authentic selves. VirginiaYou talked about how you schedule rest for yourself. I’d love to hear more about that. LisaThat was an idea that I got from a really, really, really good therapist, by far the best therapist I’ve ever had, who herself lives with chronic illness and chronic pain. She initially suggested to me that whenever I travel--I have a hard time with travel--that, like, if I travel for three days, I need to book three days of rest. If I travel for two weeks, I need to book two weeks of rest. That’s a radical proposition to me, and one that I still am like, yeah, I don’t know if I can quite make that happen. But it did inspire me to think about what would work for me. And the reality of my life for many, many years, is that on a cycle of one to two weeks, I have at least one day where I just collapse and am incapable of doing anything. I can’t get out of bed. So this conversation with my therapist inspired me to go, you know, maybe I should just calendar a day of rest every week. Instead of having an uncontrolled crash, I can have a controlled crash, and then I’m making the decision ahead of time that I’m going to rest, rather than having to emergently rest when other people are relying on me for something, right? It just actually makes me more reliable to rest on a calendar.VirginiaAnd it honors that need. You’re not pretending that’s not going to happen or hoping you can skip by without it. You’re like, no, this is a real need. This is going to enable me to do the other things I want to do. So let’s just embrace that and make sure that’s planned for. It’s really, really smart.LisaWell, and you know, I’ll say that not having kids makes it much easier, of course. But I hope that there are ways that parents can schedule in little pieces of rest, even, of course, it’s probably not like an entire Saturday. But, the more that families lean into aunties and community care, the more that that space can be carved out. VirginiaSo let’s talk about the auntie piece. Is it just something, like, because these friends live next door and they had kids, you found yourself playing that role? How do you cultivate being an auntie? LisaThat’s a great question. For me it was kind of both always going to happen and a conscious choice. I grew up in a big family. I’m one of six kids. I spent a lot of time babysitting as a kid for both my siblings and all the kids in my town, and some of my siblings are a lot older than me, so I became an aunt in my teens, and so I’ve always had kids in my life. Really, I can’t think of a time when I didn’t have little ones around, which I think is a real benefit, not a lot of people have that kind of life. And I was raised by early childhood educators. My mom is a teacher. My grandma was a preschool teacher. My other grandma is a teacher. There are a lot of teachers in my family, and a lot of them worked with little kids, so there are a lot of resources available to me.But then I also did have to make some conscious choices. I think that one of the early things that happened for me was one of my best friends asked me to be her child’s godmother, and that kid is now 17. I know, she’s a teenager, oh my god. So that relationship in my 20s started to condition me to think: How do I really show up for a family? How do I really show up for a child that’s not my own child? And then when we moved into cohousing, which was in 2019 right before the pandemic started. We knew that we would be involving ourselves more in the life of a family. More on Lisa's childful lifeAt that time, my partner and I were hoping to have kids, and I ended up losing a lot of pregnancies. We decided to not become parents, but so we were initially envisioning sort of raising our kids together, right? And then when my partner and I decided not to have kids, one of the things that we sort of decided to pivot toward is like, well, we’re going to really invest in these kids who live in our community, which we already were, because the pandemic hit and we were a bubble. So many people know the story. All the adults are working full time. There’s no childcare. There are little kids. So it was really all hands on deck during that time, and it really pushed our community into a structure of lots and lots of interdependence around childcare and I spent a lot of time with these kids when they were really little, and that really cemented some bonds and forced us to make some very conscious decisions about how we want to be involved in each other’s lives. To the point that once you get very involved in the lives of kids, you can’t exit. Like, even if you wanted to. And so that changes your whole life trajectory. Moving to Mexico is off the table for me and my partner until these kids are at least out of the house, and that’s many years down the road, right? It would be harmful for us to separate from these kids at this point. So, there are conscious decisions and just sort of happenstance. And I think for anybody who’s interested in becoming an auntie or recruiting an auntie: Every situation is kind of different. But the piece about making conscious decisions is really important and requires sometimes scary conversations where we have to put ourselves out there and be vulnerable and take risks to let our loved ones know that we would like to form these kind of relationships. VirginiaAs someone on the side with the kids, my fear would be that I’m asking this huge favor, and like, oh my gosh, what an imposition. Because kids are chaos and these friends have a lovely, child-free life--I love my children, standard disclaimer. LisaKids are total chaos.VirginiaKids are always in whatever vortex of feelings and needs that that particular age and stage requires and asking someone to show up for that is, it’s big. It’s big.LisaWell, I definitely can’t speak for all childless people, definitely not. But there are a lot of aunties who read The Auntie Bulletin, several thousand people who read The Auntie Bulletin, and a lot of shared values there in our community. Something that I think is a common feature among people who are aunties, or who want to be aunties, is: We really recognize how much we benefit from being in relationship with families. There are a lot of people, myself included, who were not able to have children and really want to have a child-ful life. We would feel a loss if we didn’t have kids in our lives. And so this was something that I was reckoning with during the pandemic, when my partner and I were providing really a lot of childcare for another family. People would ask me: Do you feel like you’re getting taken advantage of? What are you getting in return? What I realized during that time was, I’m getting paid back tenfold, because I get to have these kids in my life for the rest of my life, but I don’t have to do the hard stuff. And that’s really important. Parenting, I don’t have to tell you, is very hard. As a person with chronic illness and disability at this point, I’m very glad that I don’t have kids, because I don’t think actually that I have the stamina. It's not about capacity for love, it’s just about straight up physical energy. And so I’m able to have the benefits as an auntie of being parent-adjacent, without the cost. So I’m the winner in that transaction. And I think a lot of aunties think that way.VirginiaWell, that’s really encouraging to hear. And I think, too, what you’re talking about is just having really good communication, so people can say what they can do and also have their boundaries honored when they have to set a limit. That’s key to any good relationship, so it would apply here too. Subscribe to Burnt Toast! LisaYeah, totally.VirginiaThinking about other barriers that come up. I’ve been reading, and I know you’re a fan too, of Katherine Goldstein, and she’s been writing such interesting critiques right now of how youth sports culture really derails families’ abilities to participate in community. That’s a whole fairly explosive topic, because people are really attached to their sports. So, I’ll save the specifics of that for some time I have Katherine on to discuss this. Are youth sports a diet? Yes, absolutely. And we are not a sports family, but when she wrote about it, I immediately recognized what she meant, because every fall I noticed that my kids' friends become much less available for play dates because it’s soccer season. And it’s like, waiting for when soccer practice will be over, so that so-and-so might come over. Suddenly, even as a non-sports family, I feel like I’m loosely revolving around these schedules. And to bring it back to your work: That is one aspect of parenting culture that is really feeding into this isolation problem and this lack of community problem. This way that we’ve decided parenting has to be so intensive and performative around sports makes people actually less available to their communities. So this is a long way of asking my question: Do you think what we’re really talking about here is a problem with the institution of marriage or the institution of parenting, or is it a bit of both?LisaThat’s so interesting. I do think that youth sports is, like, by far, the kind of biggest engine of this. But there also are families that are, like, deep, deep, deep into youth performing arts that would have the same kind of function.Virginia Dance is another big one. Competitions taking up every weekend.LisaOr youth orchestra, sometimes those can be incredibly consuming and also incredibly expensive. So going with the grain of the parents that are really hyper investing in their kids activities: They will find community in those places often, right? It's a sort of substitute community for the length of the season, or whatever. And then my question is: What’s the culture within those spaces? Is it like, hyper competitive? Is it about getting to the national championship? Is there a sense of community? Is there a sense of supporting kids around resilience when things don’t go the way that they want them to? The cultures within these spaces matter. And I think it just ties back to the way that the nuclear family is a diet. Because we are so deeply incentivized to be fearful in our culture and to treat our problems with money, goods, services, activities. And the fear, I think, for a lot of parents, is that their kids are going to not have a good and happy life. So then there’s what Annette Lareau, an educational researcher, calls concerted cultivation, particularly among more bourgeois middle class families of trying to schedule kids to the hilt, to make sure that they get every opportunity in life, and they can therefore succeed through every hurdle, and never have any adversity. Or that the adversity that they have is character building adversity in some way. And so I think that the hyper-involvement in kids activities does come from fear that’s motivated by capitalism. And is that an issue of parenting culture or marriage culture or capitalist culture or gender culture?VirginiaAll of it. Yes. I mean, one thing I think about, too, is how these activities create their own community. But it's a very homogenous community. The child-free folks aren't there, because it’s only soccer families or dance families or whatever. And you’re only going to get families who can afford to do the activity. So it's a self-selecting group. This is not to say I’m doing a great job cultivating a more diverse community for my kids. I live in a white majority town. This is hard for all of us. We’re not saying you all have to quit your sports! But if that’s your primary community, that is going to narrow things in a in a way that’s worth reflecting on. To bring this a little more fully into the Burnt Toast space, where we talk about diet as metaphor, but also diets specifically: One question I am asked a lot from the aunties in the Burnt Toast community, is, "How do I show up for the kids in my life that are not my own, I don’t get to make the parenting calls, but for whom I still want to model anti-diet values?" Maybe there’s stuff the parents are doing with food that's sending a weird message, or dieting in the home, that kind of thing. LisaWell, my sense is for myself—and I try to preach this gospel at The Auntie Bulletin— is that there are a lot of these moments for non-parents who are really deeply invested in the lives of kids, where it’s not our call. And it’s just a tricky terrain for aunties or any kind of allo-parental adults who are involved in the lives of kids who aren’t their own kids. I’m really fortunate that most of my friends are pretty on board with an anti-diet philosophy. The people who are close to me, where I’m really involved in feeding kids are on the same page. But it comes up in other ways, right? Where I might have a different perspective than the parents. My sense is really that aunties do need to follow parents' lead that it’s actually quite important to honor parents’ decision makings for their kids. And we can be sort of stealthy ninjas around how we disrupt cultural conditioning more broadly. So I’m not super close to their parents, but we’ve got some kids in our neighborhood who are buddies with the kids who are a big part of my life. And those neighborhood kids get a lot of diet conditioning at home. There’s this little girl, she’s in fourth grade, and she’s always telling me about her mom’s exercise and saying that she can't get fat and she can’t eat that popsicle and things like that, which is really heartbreaking to witness. And it’s exactly that kind of situation where it’s like, I’m invested in this as a just a member of our society, but I also care about these kids, and it’s just not my call, you know? So I can just say things like, "Well, I like my body. I feel good that I have a soft body and I’m going to have another brownie. It tastes really good." And just kind of speak from my own experience, where I’m not necessarily trying to argue with their parents, or trying to convince the kid of something different. I’m just modeling something different for them. And I think it’s totally fine to say, "In my house, you’re allowed to have another brownie if you want one!" VirginiaThat modeling is so powerful. Having one example in their life of someone doing it differently, can plant that seed and help them reframe, like, oh, okay, that’s not the only way to think about this conversation. That’s really useful.LisaAnd I think affirming difference whenever we have the opportunity to do so is important. When a kid comments on somebody’s body size or shape, you can just always say, "Isn’t it great how people are different? It’s so wonderful. There’s so much variety."VirginiaRelated to modeling and fostering anti-diet values: I think there is a way that this collective approach to living and being in community with each other runs quite counter to mainstream narratives around what is good behavior, what are social expectations, and which groups do we let take up space. I’m thinking about how the group of soccer moms is allowed to be a community that everyone has paid to participate in, while the Black neighborhood having a block party might have the cops called on them. So, talk a little bit about how you see collectivism as also an act of radicalism.LisaYeah, thank you for that question. It’s such a good one. A soccer community that is literally pay to play, where there are increasing tiers of elitenes—that is coded as very respectable in our society. Whereas a block party in a neighborhood of color is coded as disrespectable, unrespectable, disreputable. The music is loud and the people are being inconsiderate and their bodies are hanging out. There is all of this stigma around collectivism. I find for myself it’s very insidious and subtle, the ways that collectivism is stigmatized. I have a theoretical allegiance to collectivism, but it takes having to actually ask for help to notice our friction and our resistance to that. You were talking about that earlier in the follow up to your divorce. And I’ve had that experience, when I’ve needed to ask for help around my disability and chronic illness, and there’s all of a sudden this feeling of like, oh, I shouldn’t ask for help. Oh, there’s something wrong with that. And I think that there actually is a dotted line there between our resistance to asking for help and that feeling like we’re doing something bad and anti-Blackness, anti-brownness, anti-queerness. Community is so, so essential for queer folks who have had to find their own family, choose their own community for for for generations. There’s this kind of whiff of disreputability around collectivism, and these narratives around these kids are running wild and bodies are hanging out and the music’s too loud, and like, what’s going on there? What are they eating? VirginiaThere are so many ways we police it all.LisaIt’s all really, really policed. I think that’s really well put. So I think it's important to reclaim collectivism and reframe collectivism as legitimate, valuable, important, meaningful. Collectivism is something that a lot of people who live in dominant white communities have actually had taken from us through the medium of compulsory individualism. We need to reclaim it, and we need to not stigmatize it in all the communities that are around us and our neighbors.VirginiaMaybe instead, we should be looking at other communities as examples to emulate.LisaAs resources, absolutely. The disability community as well. VirginiaI think that’s really helpful, and I’m sure it gives folks a lot to think about, because it just continues to show up in so many small ways. Even as you were describing that I was thinking about the stress response that kicks in for me after I host a gathering, and my house is left in whatever state it’s left in. And it’s like, of course, the house is messy. You just had 12 people over, and there are seltzer cans laying around and throw pillows out of place. That’s because you lived in your house. You used it. But there’s this other part of my brain that’s so conditioned to be like, well, the house has to be tidy. And now it looks like you’re out of control. But it’s that kind of thing, that inner policing we do, that is very much related to this larger societal policing that we participate in.LisaAbsolutely, yeah.VirginiaAny last tips for folks who are like, okay, I want to be doing more of this. Particularly folks who want to connect with child free folks, or for child free folks who are listening, who want to connect with more families with kids. Any little nudges, baby steps people can take towards building this?LisaMy big nudge is to practice courage, because it’s scary to put yourself out there. You have to be vulnerable when you ask to build a relationship that’s deeper with people. And I think it actually is analogous, in some ways, to forming romantic relationships. You have to take some risks to say what you want, and that’s a scary thing to do, but there are lots and lots of people out there who want to be more involved in the lives of families. And there are lots and lots of families out there who need more support.VirginiaWhen you were talking about the pandemic, I was like, I would have killed for an auntie. LisaEvery family needs an auntie. Two adults I love, Rosie Spinks and Chloe Sladden who both have wonderful newsletters, have been writing about this lately, that even having two adults is just not enough to run a household in the structure of society that we live in. I think that that’s right, even if you’ve got a man who’s pulling his weight, to crack open a whole other can of worms.Why Fair Play didn't work for ChloeVirginiaWhich, yeah.LisaThey’re rare, but it does happen, and even then, it’s not enough. We actually need more adults to make communities run than we get with the way nuclear families are set up. So it’s a really worthy thing to seek out aunties, and for aunties to seek out families, and it’s just a little bit scary. And you also have to be persistent, because when we offer, parents will usually say no. Like they don’t believe us. They think their kids are too wild and whatever. So parents have to persist and and families need to persist in being welcoming. VirginiaI would also add on the parent side, as much as I appreciated what you said before about aunties have to respect parents having the final call on stuff: It’s also an exercise in us having to loosen up a little. Not everything is going to go exactly the way you want it to go. The bedtime might look differently, meals might happen differently, there might be more or less screens, and we have to be less attached to those metrics of parenting and touchstones of our parenting day, and realize that the benefits of our kids getting to be with other people, way outweighs whether or not they eat three cookies or whatever it is. LisaYeah, the more that we live in community, the more we all learn to be flexible.VirginiaWhich is really the work of my life, learning to be more flexible. Work on flexibility with us! 🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈Butter LisaI feel like this is pretty nerdy, but this is my true self. The Substack algorithm fed me a newsletter yesterday that I’m so excited about. It’s about The Babysitters Club, which was, like, my favorite thing. VirginiaOh you shared this. Oh, my God, I keep thinking  about it. LisaAnd then yesterday, I ran into my childhood best friend on the beach. I’m visiting my parents right now. We read a lot of Babysitters Club together. So I’m going to tell you this guy named Andrew Knott, who I had not heard of before, but the algorithm fed it to me, wrote a post called A Classic Children’s Book Series Has Me Questioning My Parenting, and he’s reading The Babysitter’s Club together with his daughter, who I think isa tween. So for those who aren’t familiar with The Babysitters Club, where have you been? But major cultural touch point, most important books of my childhood. And, you know, very like auntie-formative books as well. Yeah, he has this really great argument about how the babysitters in these books did like, 100% of the parenting for a lot of families.VirginiaThey absolutely did!LisaIt’s like, this weirdly dystopian situation where the parents are just like, I guess we’re gonna go to Atlantic City for a couple days. Have fun kids.VirginiaYes, yes, they took two 12 year olds along to babysit a family of eight children on a beach vacation and the parents are nowhere to be found. For sure, Mary Anne and Stacey can handle all of the Pike children roaming around the Jersey Shore. It’ll be no problem.LisaYeah, I don’t know. It made me laugh so hard. I feel like I’m always on the lookout for, like, good takes on my favorite books of my childhood. And I’ve got to say this one is an absolute winner. VirginiaAnd intersects so well with your work. My Butter is that I was thinking about the sort of evolving work of being more in community. And a really lovely win I had recently over the summer —and it also relates to what you were saying about scheduling rest— is that a friend of mine and I now have a standing Wednesday morning date, where we meet to walk in a local garden. We've been doing it all summer — every Wednesday, 10am, we walk in these gardens for an hour. And they are now about to close for the season and we're figuring out a replacement place to walk. But when I say walk—I mean, like, stroll, maybe stop and watch bees on flowers for 10 minutes. We’re just talking and strolling and we are not wearing athletic clothing. I call it a workout because it mentally gave me permission to put it on my calendar—that’s my Wednesday workout. But it is not cardio in any way. We’re just strolling around, chatting and and it’s just such a nice touch point. And I’m really proud of myself for making time for that connection with someone. And she’s a good friend, but prior to doing that, I could go three weeks without seeing her easily. And now we always see each other once a week, and we have invited other friends to join us. And the really funny thing, or really, thecool thing was one day, I went and did the walk with her, and then I had a doctor’s appointment. And historically, in the last year or two, my blood pressure has been inching up a little bit. It’s been a smidge high. So I was getting nervous for the blood pressure reading. And my blood pressure was normal to low! LisaOh my gosh. Gosh, because you’re looking at bees with your friend.VirginiaI texted her, I was like, I truly think we’re lowering my blood pressure. LisaYeah, it’s not weight loss. It’s looking at bees, on a schedule with your friends.VirginiaIt’s having a weekly appointment to watch the bees with your friend. Well, thank you, Lisa. This was so much fun. Such a great conversation. Tell folks where we can find you and how we can support your work. LisaYeah, thank you so much for having me. Virginia. I’m at The Auntie Bulletin, which is the auntie.substack.com and that’s the main thing I’m working on right now, so I hope people will come check it out. Thank you so much for having me.VirginiaIt’s really fantastic. And there’s just, if any part of this conversation has resonated, there’s like, so much more over on The Auntie Bulletin. So folks need to go check it out. 🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith (follow me on Instagram) and Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, and Big Undies.The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.Our theme music is by Farideh.Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!Subscribe!

You’re listening to Burnt Toast! I’m Virginia Sole-Smith. Today, my conversation is with Laura Birek. You probably know Laura as co-host of The Big Fat Positive Podcast, but today she’s here to talk about her new book, co authored with Gia Gambaro Blount. It’s called Good to Go: A Fresh Take on Potty Training for Today's Intentional Parent.I'm years past potty training (thank God!!), but I honestly remember the pain of it better than childbirth. This is often a very fraught parenting milestone. And as with all things parenting: That means we encounter a ton of societal expectations and pressures around how to get potty training right, which makes it all even harder. If you, too, have been a victim of that viral three day potty training method, you'll want to hear this conversation. Laura has amazing advice about how to recover and do it differently. But even if you’re child-free or years out from this experience: What we’re really talking about today is how perfectionism and performative parenting can make life harder for parents (especially moms!) and really get in the way of kids’ body autonomy. And of course, promoting body autonomy is core to the work we do here on Burnt Toast.Today’s episode is free! But don't forget, if you were a Substack subscriber, you have until October 28 to claim your free access to our paid content. Check your email for your special gift link! And drop any questions or concerns here.PS. You can take 10 percent off Good to Go or any book we talk about on the podcast, if you order it from the Burnt Toast Bookshop, along with a copy of Fat Talk! (This also applies if you’ve previously bought Fat Talk from them. Just use the code FATTALK at checkout.)Episode 215 TranscriptLauraI am the co-author of a new potty training book that just came out called Good to Go: A Fresh Take on Potty Training for Today's Intentional Parent. You can find it everywhere. And then I am also the co-host of a long running parenting and pregnancy podcast called The Big Fat Positive Podcast. I’ve been doing that for over seven years now. Every week for seven years! VirginiaYou are an OG podcaster! I love the podcast. I’ve been on the podcast. But today we are going to talk about Good to Go. Because you reached out to me and you said, "Potty training culture is such a thing. Can we talk about it?" And I am not going to share my own children’s stories. But I’m going to say, yeah, it is such a thing. And it really messes with our heads. And of course, my work is all about investigating cultural messages that mess with our heads, aka diet culture. So yes, let’s talk about potty training diet culture today. You kick off the book with the story of how you tried and failed to train your older kiddo, who you call Augie in the book. And the impetus was that you read the super popular three day potty training book that I think most of our listeners who have potty trained a child have encountered. Why did the idea that you could magically change potty train your child in three days go so wrong?LauraSo we kind of fell into that new parent trap of "This kid’s a genius!" He was hitting all his milestones early. He was such a talker. And I had been given that very, very popular three day potty training method that shall not be named. And I read it and really took it as gospel. And in the book, there were all these signs of readiness. And I was like, check, check, check, for Augie. It was stuff like, is he interested in the potty? And I thought, oh, this kid is ready, according to this book. And there were extenuating circumstances--namely, the pandemic. We were deep in the pandemic. We were also stuck indoors because there was a wildfire nearby, so we weren’t even able to go outside. That’s Southern California life for you. And I was in my second trimester with my second pregnancy. So all of these things came together to be like, well, you know, what the hell? Let’s give it a try. VirginiaWe’re trapped indoors anyways. LauraWe’re trapped indoors. Let’s spend three days naked and see what happens. And so the very first sentence of our book is: "I’m a failure at potty training." Which is a very weird way to start a potty training book.VirginiaBut so relatable. LauraOh, I hope it’s relatable! Because the thing is, we thought we were a success at the very beginning. Right after those three days, he was mostly making it to the potty. We were like, okay, we can take away diapers. But what we didn’t realize is that we had just entered into a state of constant vigilance with him. We were constantly reminding him to go, and we were always nervous about going anywhere and doing anything with him, like even just going to the park. We never got over the stress level, right? My mom would say, "He wasn’t potty trained. You were potty trained."VirginiaYou were trying to take him to the potty obsessively and monitor all the signs.LauraExactly, exactly. And the other thing was, I had this idea that having two kids in diapers was going to be hard. I don’t know where I got this idea! Everyone is like oh, you can’t have two kids in diapers.VirginiaIt feels like a really common cultural message. I’ve heard a lot of friends say that, who have kids close in age. "Oh we have got to get her out of diapers before the next one comes!" LauraActually having two kids in diapers is way more convenient than one who’s in a very early stage of potty training and a newborn! That was our first mistake. But we just continued to deal with this stress around going places. And at some point, I ended up having the baby. Augie was still out of diapers, but he was having accidents. In our book, we call them misses, but this author called them accidents, so we’ll stick with accidents. It’s the more familiar term. And he was having accidents all the time, and I was really stressed out about it. Then I take my new baby, we call him Sebastian, to a local place called the Family Room, which is where I did mommy and me classes, and then toddler and me classes with my now co-author, Gia Gambaro Blount. I brought him for a lactation support group. But Gia happened to be there, and I descended upon Gia. I was like, "Gia, I need your help. Augie is having all these problems with potty training. I don’t know what to do." And she looked at me, and said, "Can I ask you something? When you decided to potty train him, did you tell him it was going to happen?" And I was like, "No." Because the book specifically tells you you’re not supposed to do that. VirginiaYou just spring it on them.LauraThe book tells you, do not even have the little potties out, because it will confuse their little brains. And I didn’t know anything about potty training at the time, so I was like, "Sure, that sounds legit. Whatever." So Gia was like, "You need to go back and ask him how he’s feeling about this." So I go back and I look Augie in the eyes. I’m like, "Hey baby. I know we’ve been having a lot of accidents. Do you think you want to go back to diapers for a little bit?" And he was like, "Yes!" Instantly. "Yes, yes, yes, I want to go back to diapers!" And I was shocked by that, because I thought he was going to be like, "No, I’m a big boy!" VirginiaHe was like, no, I’m really not ready for that. LauraAnd so we went back to diapers, which, by the way, in the 3 day method is a big no no. Like, huge regression. And there was also this strict thing about having to potty train between 18 and 30 months, and if you don’t do it between those times, you’ve ruined them forever. At least, that’s that’s the takeaway I had.VirginiaAnd if you could do it beforehand, even better.LauraYes! So I was really worried about all that. But the minute we put him back in diapers, the stress went away. And you know, TL/DR, he is not ruined forever. We ended up actually potty training him using Gia’s help just after he turned three. VirginiaEverything in your story is so deeply relatable. Because I think those first years of parenting are such chaos. And this is certainly not all moms... but there’s a certain kind of mom who is vulnerable to this message of "control as much of it as you can." Have the feeding schedules, track the ins and outs when they’re newborns. There is a need to have a lot of information and structure around what is otherwise just this sea of "when will we ever sleep again? When will anything happen?" That makes us really vulnerable to messages like "You want to achieve this milestone by a certain age." Or "You want to achieve this milestone before you have another baby." There is this idea that we somehow get a gold star if we get it done at a certain point. And now that I have kids who are way, way older, and I’m just like, "I don’t even remember when it all happened." You don’t look at a bunch of seventh graders, and think, "Well, I can tell  you didn’t potty train till 3.5." LauraAnd I think that I am one of those moms who is totally susceptible to that. We had a sleep schedule with my first. And I think part of it is that I had my kids later in life, I already had a career. And when you have kids, any control you have over your days, over your schedule, over your life, just flies out the window. So I think I was grasping at anything that would give me a sense of control in my life. And rightfully so! So I’m not saying that those things don’t help people —I actually do think some of the sleep schedule stuff helped us. Or we got lucky, and that just happened to align with my kid's personality.VirginiaYou had a baby who was like, "Yes, fine, we’ll do a schedule."LauraExactly. I don’t know. There’s no way to know, but it did give me a sense of control. The trap with that is, say you have a good experience, like I did with sleep training , and then you go to potty training and it’s not as successful. Suddenly you think it’s some kind of referendum on your own parenting. VirginiaYes! LauraHaving a second kid is really helpful — or third or fourth, I imagine, even more— but having more than one kid has really helped me realize that so much of parenting is luck of the draw with your kid’s personality and temperament and all that stuff. But with your first, it can feel like such pressure and such responsibility for you to be the person who figures it all out. When it turns out that a lot of things are just not figure out-able, or need time or a different approach, or you need to be flexible.VirginiaSocial media has not helped in all of this, for sure. I mean, not that everybody documents their kids potty training on social media, but it’s of a piece with needing to celebrate milestones in this public way, I think.LauraHopefully one of the gifts that we give with our book is this concept that potty training is not a light switch. It’s not a binary. You’re not either potty trained or not in some clear crossing the finish line manner. Instead, we describe it as a continuum in terms of how much parental involvement is required. So at the very, very beginning, those first days, weeks, even months, you’re in the highly involved phase, where you are doing a lot of reminding and you’re doing a lot of cleaning up of pee on floor. You’re doing a lot of thinking about it. Then you go into the occasionally involved phase, which is fewer accidents, they know they need to go, but you still have to wipe their butts until kindergarten, at least usually. That’s something that the other books don’t really tell you. They frame it as, "oh, you’re done after three days." But these kids need help! There are just some physiological reasons why little kids have trouble wiping their own butts. Their heads are huge! Their proportions are all off. Some kids physically cannot reach their butts. But no one’s telling you that. So our goal in the book is to try to shorten the highly involved phase so that you’re in the occasionally involved phase quicker, and then finally you'll get to the point where you’re rarely involved. We say that there’s some day in the future where you won’t know the last time your kid went to the bathroom. But that’s years away. I mean, in my house, it’s still getting announced! So if you can think of it as the spectrum of where you’re in this process, then you can be a little bit less like, oh, okay, so and so just posted "oh, my two year old potty trained in one weekend." You can know in your head: Okay, yeah, that just means they’re not wearing diapers on a daily basis, right? But caregivers are still involved.VirginiaYeah, it doesn’t mean the two year old is like, "Okay, mom, I’ll be back in a minute!"LauraPeople will come out of the woodwork and be like, "My two year old self potty trained, they won’t let me be involved. They do everything!" And it’s like, I am so happy for you. But that is not the majority of kids and we need to just understand that’s not an expectation we should have.VirginiaI also appreciate understanding the stages more, and the fact that you and Gia really emphasized that this means you can decide readiness, not just based on your kid. So: Are they achieving these certain milestones? Are they checking these boxes? But also: Consider yourself. Are you, the parent, ready? Maybe when you’re about to have a newborn, you don’t want to be in the highly involved potty training phase. If you don’t think you can get all the way to "less involved" by the time the baby comes, maybe put this on hold for a while. And that just gives us so much more permission to center our own needs in the process. And to actually have needs, which is another thing the three day discourse really leaves out. The idea that you as the parent would have any other things going on other than potty training.LauraMost of the 3 day experts say you cannot leave the house for three days. Okay, that’s great for a stay at home parent who has no other kids. But what happens when you have an older kid that needs to go to soccer practice? What happens if you have a prescription you need to pick up from the pharmacy?VirginiaOr you’re a single parent.LauraOr a single parent doing it all. Exactly.We were in a pandemic, in a wildfire, and that’s why I was like, okay, we can stay home for three days. There has been no other time in our lives we’ve been able to stay inside for three days. Those unrealistic expectations really set you up for failure. And then on top of that, the message in all these other methods is, "If your child is still having issues after the three days, you must have done something wrong. You must have not followed my method perfectly."That’s with so much of parenting, right? But no, every kid is going to react differently and have a different timeline. And also, sometimes prescriptions need to be picked up at the pharmacy. VirginiaMy listeners frequently get a little annoyed when I say everything is a diet. But: A system that tells you that if it didn’t work, it’s because you didn’t do it right is 100 percent classic diet culture. It’s classic like, well, if only you’d followed it, if only you’d have better discipline... as opposed to: This just isn’t a match for what you’re trying to do right now. This isn’t the way for you. Laura And it’s trying to police this thing that everyone has to do, too. I think that’s just such an interesting analog to diet culture as well. We all have to eat. I know you’ve written about this, right? Even the most restrictive diet is going to have to provide some food, because you will die. And we all have to eliminate our waste and, save children with medical issues that may prevent them from potty training, almost all of us are going to end up having to learn to use a toilet at some point. It’s this thing we all have to do. And yet, we’re being told there’s this one right way to do it. But there are also at least five different people saying their way is the one right way. What gets more diet-y than that?VirginiaAnother thing I really appreciated is what Gia emphasizes in terms of assessing your child’s readiness. Because it's not just the cognitive signs, like, do they have the language? Are they looking at the potty and interested or following you into the bathroom? She also talks about this concept of interoception, which is something that comes up a lot when we talk about helping kids be intuitive eaters. So again, there are these parallels between food and potty stuff. Can you explain how understanding where a child is with their interoception development can help you prepare for a more intuitive approach to potty training?LauraWe talk about the three realms of readiness: There are the cognitive signs, the social-emotional signs and the physical signs. But we further split those up into two categories. Some of these things are teachable signs, and then there are some unteachable things that are just developmental. A really good example of that is in the cognitive signs of readiness. An unteachable sign is whether your child is curious about you going to the potty, right? That is often listed as a sign of readiness, like, oh, your child wants to know what you’re doing. Why are you sitting on the potty? Wants to come be with you in the bathroom. You can’t teach that level of interest, right? And if you tried it would be weird. And interoception is another unteachable sign. There’s nothing we can do to force your child to have more awareness of what’s going on in their body. That’s a thing we’re kind of born with that is on another spectrum. Some people are incredibly sensitive. I’m a person who’s been accused of being a hypochondriac, and I think part of that is I have heightened interoception. I feel every ache and pain. I always felt when I ovulated, for example. I also heard once that only some people can tell when their heart’s beating. That’s just a sign that some people have a more sensitive sense of interoception versus others, right? We can’t teach it. It’s just the way your kid is. What we can teach is supporting their interpretation of their interoception. An example that’s not potty training related is if your child gets goosebumps, you can help them identify: Do you have goosebumps because you’re feeling cold, or do you have goosebumps because you’re scared? Goosebumps have a feeling associated with them, and you can’t teach them how to feel that. But what you can do is try to connect language to the feeling. And that’s hard. That is the hard work of potty training, honestly. And so Gia and I identified something we called the universal potty sequence, just to keep it short in our brain, which is, when we are as adults, go to the bathroom. We say we’re going to the bathroom. We think of it as one step, but in reality, it’s up to nine steps. We identified nine steps. But you know, it’s a bunch of different steps that the kids have to learn. It’s all new for them, right? So the first step is feeling. The sensation is that interoception, every step after that is kind of mechanical, right? Like you navigate to the potty, then you pull down your pants, then you sit on the potty, then you eliminate, then you flush, blah, blah, right? So we have this thing we call the rehearsal period. That’s about two weeks ish--again, everything is flexible--before you actually plan to take away diapers, where you teach everything on the universal potty sequence, all those steps, all those new things, all those new mechanics for them. Except step one: Feel the sensation. That one we are leaving to when you take away diapers. The point is when kids are thrown into "we’re taking away diapers. We’re taking away this thing that you’ve worn your entire life!" this way, the only thing they have to learn is how to connect the sensation to the need to go. Everything else isn’t brand new, so the other eight steps aren't so overwhelming. All we’re focusing on is interoception, and so that’s what we’re trying to really center in our method to help our kids connect the dots. And that’s why we also don’t forbid prompting. Some kids are not going to have a strong sensation, and you’re going to need to sometimes, in retrospect, be like, "hmm, there’s pee on the floor now, you you had a miss." And we say miss, because we don’t want there to be shame involved, right? We don’t want to say, oh, it’s an accident. It’s not really an accident. They just didn’t get to the potty in time, right? or they didn’t even think to try to go. So we say, "Oh, you had a miss. Do you remember what it felt like before it came out? Next time we feel that feeling, let’s see if we can catch it before we go." So we’re working on that. And some kids need that extra support. Honestly, my six year old still likes to get hyper focused, and so he does need to get prompted to this day. And no one would say, oh, that six year old’s not potty trained. He’s definitely potty trained at school. He’s fine, but sometimes we just need to help him connect. I mean, how many adults do you know who wait till the last second go to the bathroom?VirginiaThat’s me, every work day. What I love about this is how you’re really centering kids’ body autonomy in this process. And in way that is so counter to how I’ve seen body training explained before. This feels like such a huge shift. I mean, I remember when I was doing it with my own kids, feeling like, "the way I’m doing this doesn’t feel aligned with the way I’m thinking about feeding them," for example. When I’m feeding kids, I’m really focused on the power of their ability to say no to a food they don’t like, and why that’s important. And the importance of not pushing them past their fullness cues and helping them notice hunger cues. Their body autonomy is the center of it. And potty training is this thing where because we’re so focused on getting it done, because we’ve got all this pressure on it, it’s like... suddenly they don’t have body autonomy in the process at all. And that feels really troubling.LauraIt does. I mean, I came to that same revelation. It was part of what allowed me to feel okay with putting Augie back in diapers, VirginiaYeah, because you gave him his power back. LauraExactly and I realized this exact same thing you said. I am so dedicated to respectful parenting. I’m a Virginia Sole-Smith fan girl! Like I read all your books, and I'm offering foods without judgment, and all of that stuff. And yet, in this one realm, I fell into the trap of not just not centering his body autonomy, I like full on ignored it. I mean, it sounds awful, but I really did violate his own body autonomy. I forced him to do things he wasn’t ready for. And I do feel bad about it to this day. And it’s not an inconsequential thing, right? Like, people say, No one’s going to college still, still using a diaper. Everyone eventually learns to potty. And it’s true. But there is a lot of shame around using the bathroom. There was some Vice article that just came out, which said, like, 83 percent of Gen Zers have bathroom anxiety. And a bunch of them want to quit because of it. They don’t want to have a job because they’re afraid of using the bathroom. VirginiaI’m an old millennial, but I have some women’s magazine bathroom trauma. I understand what they’re saying. It’s a stressful place. LauraAnd I’m not saying I enjoy pooping in a public bathroom either! But there are consequences, and not just about anxiety. There are actual physical consequences to involving shame in the potty training process. There's encopresis, which is a specific type of constipation and a really big problem that is so hard to solve. I’ve heard from so many parents whose children have it. It's a form of chronic constipation, and what happens is you’re so constipated that liquid poop escapes around the sides of the impacted stool, and kids can’t tell anymore that they have to poop because their colon is so enlarged. And this is a much more common problem than people realize, and it’s really hard to solve once it’s started. It's something you really want to get ahead of. And that’s the other reason we say if your child is refusing to poop in the potty, give them a diaper. You need to get that poop out one way or another, and it’s not a judgment on whether you’ve been able to potty train them or not. We’re looking at the long game here. We’re trying to create a child who doesn’t have long term problems that require a ton of medical intervention. What’s worse, having to go to a GI doctor for the next five years or just giving them a diaper to poop in at the end of the day?VirginiaAnd giving them another month or six months in diapers, and then you try again. LauraIt goes back to the perfectionism, though. Like, when you put it that way, you’re like, yeah, of course, I’ll give them a diaper. But if you’ve been told no, they’re going to be confused. It’s failure. That's harder. It's not failure. These kids are way smarter than most people give them credit for, like, they will know the difference. They’re not going to be confused about what’s going on.VirginiaI think another piece of this body autonomy conversation is night training. I really love that Gia does not endorse night training. I mean, I have heard of parents setting alarms to wake toddlers up to pee at 11pm so that they could say they were night trained. Just tell us why this is so unnecessary.LauraNight training is absolutely unnecessary. We did a ton of research to make sure we were right. Night training is just not effective. It’s really a one hundred percent developmental shift that happens in your child’s brain and their body. When they are ready, they will be night trained. And there’s nothing you can do to force it. One in 6 kids at age six still wet the bed at night. At age seven, that goes down to one in 10. But that’s still a lot of kids! One in 10 kids in your second grade class are still wetting the bed at night. And that’s fine and developmentally normal. And so if we know that, if we can normalize that, it may lessen the pressure for night training. There’s a scientific term for waking them at night to sit them on the potty. They call it lifting. And the research shows that lifting has no measurable outcomes like lifting. People who practice lifting had no better results than people who just let their kids sleep. And I would imagine—this is just my hypothesis—that those parents are crabby because they have to wake up in the middle of the night to do it. And their kids are also probably crabby for having gotten woken up, even if they’re half awake, right? So we are firmly in the belief that you don’t have to do night training. That said, we tell you when to start looking for signs that it's time to take away night time diapers and how to do it. And also what to do when your kid is getting up to pee in the middle of the night, and that becomes a problem. So if your child is waking up in the middle of the night every night to go pee — we get into how to address that, what the root causes might be, and how to how to deal with that when the time comes. But we say do not do night training at the same time as daytime training. Your kids will likely just night train themselves during or after the process. One in 10 will take past age seven.VirginiaThe last thing I want to hit on is the stuff piece of potty training. There’s a lot marketed to us, a lot of gear, different types of potties, all of that. And I would love to hear your take on what is actually useful and what is just marketing, and you can probably skip. LauraLike anything parenting-related, mom-related specifically, there are going to be people trying to sell you a bunch of stuff. But I mean, basically you need a pot to piss in, right? Like, that is the bare bones of what you need. A lot of people ask us about the floor potties: Do I really need a floor potty? A lot of people find them kind of gross, unsightly. I get it. You don’t want to have a little toilet in your living room. Yeah, I didn’t either. But if you buy nothing else, we recommend having a floor potty. And you don't have to buy them — there are going to be 20 parents in your neighborhood who are desperate to get these out of their basements! You can get over the fact that it was used by another kid, just get some Clorox. You know, you’re fine. You don’t have to spend actual money on any of this stuff, because it is a thing that you only need for a narrow window of time. So we recommend, at the bare minimum, having a floor potty for this reason: There are three types of awareness when it comes to your internal body awareness. There’s sensation awareness, which is, oh, I have to go. The action awareness is: Is it pee or poop? And then there’s urgency awareness, which is like, the real key to all of this. Urgency awareness is how much lead time you have between noticing the feeling and getting to a toilet. And when you are first potty training, in the first days and weeks, that urgency awareness window is seconds. We’re talking like five seconds between when a kid recognizes and when they go. Because of that, we want to give them as many opportunities to have a win as possible, right? Like, you don’t want to clean up pee off your floor, and you want your kid to feel successful, right? The more chances they have to successfully make it to the potty, the better everyone’s going to feel, and the like, quicker the process is going to go. And sometimes the difference between a win and a miss is the time it takes to walk from the living room to the bathroom.In addition, there are a lot of things about the big potty that scare kids or just are really, really challenging for kids. It’s high up, so you have to have a step stool or something. Usually you have to have some kind of insert for the seat. So like, if you’re like, oh, I don’t want to buy a floor potty, you’re still having to buy a step stool and a seat insert. So that’s two things versus the one floor potty. And kids can be scared of the balancing being high up. They can be scared of the plopping, like the poop falling all the way into the bowl. We have some techniques to help them get over that, but there are just more barriers to entry for most kids to use the adult potty at the get-go. Obviously, you can work towards that. And I always hear from people like, well, my kid wouldn’t even go in the small potty. It’s like, okay, there you go. Now, you know. All the more reason to get one from some other parent. If you have a really big house, two floor potties could be helpful so you don’t have to be carrying them around everywhere you go. I mean the amount of time I’ve spent in my life carrying around a little floor potty full of pee. It’s just so gross. It’s such a glamorous life we live as parents. And then the only other thing that I’d say is really a good buy if you're in the car a lot, is a travel potty.VirginiaOne hundred percent. LauraThere are so many great ones now. I have the Oxo one, it like, folds up into this flat little package. And you can either pop the legs vertical, so that you put a little plastic bag in that has a little absorbent pad so that you can sit on the potty in the backseat of the car or the trunk or whatever. But it also folds out, so it can be a little seat to use in public bathrooms. And that’s honestly really great. Public bathrooms are a whole other topic that we actually talk a lot about in the book. But one major thing is that their butts are too small. They just so you either have to hold them, and it’s a whole thing, or you can have this travel potty with you, which gives them a seat that’s their size and makes it more accessible. ButterVirginiaWell, this was fantastic. Speaking of stuff, though, it does not have to be stuff. Laura, do you want to give us some Butter today?LauraI do. Okay, so I went straight from saying you don’t need to buy things for potty training, and then I’m going to tell you about this thing that I think you should buy for potty training. But I have to tell you about this because I have been giving these out to my friends left and right. Anytime I tell someone about it, they they’re like their mind is blown. They’ve never heard of it before, and so I feel like I have to share it, because it’s something that’s been so helpful for us, and that is a disposable travel urinal. Have you ever heard of these? VirginiaI do not have children with penises, so no.LauraWell, guess what? It works for children with vulvas, too. VirginiaWow. Okay!LauraSo it’s this universal spout. It’s basically this sort of oval shaped spout that, if you have a penis, you point this the top part up, and if you have a vulva, you point it down, just so it catches the pee. And it’s just a plastic bag, kind of like an emesis bag, but the difference is there’s a little zip lock top, so you can seal it off, and there’s like a gel pad at the bottom that’s dry when you get it, but it absorbs liquid, kind of like what’s inside of a diaper, right? And you can it folds up into this tiny little package that you can have in your purse. It’s saved us so many times when you are places where you just can’t get to a bathroom quickly, and they really have to pee. Because, I don’t know about your kids, but no matter how many times I tell them, like we’re leaving the park, let’s go to the bathroom. Yeah, no, I don’t have to go. And then five minutes into the drive home, I have to pee. I have to pee.And while I do have two children with penises, I don’t usually like to have them pee on random people’s yards, right? So really helps to be able to have this thing in the car. I will tell you the most clutch moment, which hopefully doesn’t get me canceled, which is we were in line. My six year old and I were in line for the Guardians of the Galaxy breakout ride at Disney California Adventure. And it was an hour long line. And I was shocked that he was focused and able to stay in that line the whole time. But we were almost to the boarding area, and he’s like, Mommy I have to pee and it was just me and him. I couldn’t send him with his dad or anything. And this line is like a maze, you know how Disney does it’s like they create this whole experience. But I didn’t know how to get out in any quick way, even if they would have led us back in the line, I didn’t know how to get out. And it was dark in there, all moody, and so it was scary. And I was like, okay, baby, just turn around. So I got him face away from the crowd, and he peed in the bag, and there was a trash can right there. And it saved us! so I highly recommend it. I have one in my purse at all times, just in case. I have yet to use it for myself, but it is apparently used by adults. Okay, yeah, yeah, absolutely so. And they, I don’t have a brand recommendation. There’s like 500 different brands, so just look up disposable urinal bags. VirginiaWell, my Butter is not something you can pee in, but It is body adjacent in thinking about this episode, and thinking back to earlier parenting years, because, as I said, I’m like, pretty well out of the stage. Now, I was remembering how much one of our favorite picture books at that time was Bodies Are Cool by Tyler Feder. LauraI love that book. VirginiaIt’s incredible. It should be in every parent’s library. It’s a go-to baby shower gift for me forever, because it’s just an amazing celebration of body diversity, which is all of Tyler’s work. So that’s a Butter I’ve given before, but just to re-up. But recently, a friend of mine gave me a print of Tyler’s of this beautiful, fat mermaid. I’ll put a photo of it in the show notes. And I actually hung it up by my bathroom, because our bathroom is near where our pool is. So now we have a lot of middle school girls changing into swimsuits all the time. And I am slowly making this bathroom my body celebration shrine. So I have three Tyler illustrations in that space. And I’m just adding to this little collection of body positive art so that when teenage girls are in there changing into swimsuits and having the feelings they can look around and be like, Oh, right. Bodies are cool. So, another way to think about your bathroom as a place to affirm that body autonomy matters. LauraYeah, it really does. VirginiaWell, this was a delight. Laura, thank you so much for joining us. Tell folks where we can follow you, how we can support your work.LauraYes. So as I said many times, my book Good to Go: A Fresh Take on Potty Training for Today's Intentional Parent is out in the US and Canada, wherever you buy your books. There’s also an e-book version you can find. We are hoping to get an audiobook going soon. And we also have a website that you can find us at and then listen to my podcast. We have great conversations all the time. We had Virginia on for two episodes when Fat Talk came out and one of our favorite episodes ever. And we are Big Fat Positive a pregnancy and parenting journey.VirginiaAmazing. Thank you so much for being here. LauraThanks for having me. I love talking to you.The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith (follow me on Instagram) and Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, and Big Undies.The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.Our theme music is by Farideh.Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!

Welcome to Indulgence Gospel After Dark! We are Virginia Sole-Smith and Corinne Fay, here with our first-ever Patreon podcast episode! We're going to chat about: ⭐️ How we're feeling about the BIG MOVE. ⭐️ How to think about clothes after a significant size change. What even IS your style now?! ⭐️Figuring out fall uniforms! ⭐️ Diet culture in disaster prep. ⭐️ The one thing we wish straight-sized style bloggers would do differently. And so much more! To hear the full conversation, you'll need to be a paid subscriber. Reminder: Substack subscribers, make sure to redeem your gift to read this newsletter for FREE!🧈 🧈 🧈 Check your email for your gift link.🧈 🧈 🧈As we move from Substack to Patreon, there are just a few quick (but important!) steps you’ll need to take to keep accessing the member-only podcast episodes on your favorite podcast app.👉 Follow the detailed instructions below to stay connected!This episode contains affiliate links. Shopping our links is a great way to support Burnt Toast!Episode 214 TranscriptCorinne This is the episode you’ve been waiting for! We’re going to reveal our big news.VirginiaBurnt Toast and Big Undies have moved to Patreon! CorinneWe’re going to get into the how and the why, and then we’re going to answer some pretty juicy listener questions.VirginiaThis is very exciting. It's our first week over on Patreon. We’re still, to be honest, at the time of this recording, figuring out how to use Patreon? I would say?CorinneAbsolutely.VirginiaWe're still learning our way around, which I’m sure is the experience that many listeners are also having. Unless you were already a longtime Patreon user, which I think a lot of you were. I mean, I think a lot of us use Patreon. But it’s all new. It’s different. How are you feeling, Corinne?CorinneI’m excited! Definitely still getting to know Patreon as a platform, but it feels refreshing to be somewhere new. It has a very different vibe over here, I think. And I think a lot of people kind of had beef with Substack for various reasons. And so I’m excited we're here. VirginiaIt feels like it was time. Burnt Toast hasd been on Substack for four years. Big Undies is newer, but you have been working in the Substack space for about as long as I have. And there were just a lot of ways that platform had stopped working for us. And a lot of decisions that company had made that were not feeling great. It’s something that listeners have asked for for a long time. People are like, "When are you leaving Substack? We don’t like the Nazis!" And we don’t like the Nazis either. But it was a really big question of how to move these businesses, how to do it without us losing big financially, and in terms of both of these brands till having our communities. We didn’t want to leave and have nobody follow us.CorinneAlso, I think there’s an argument to be made that letting Substack turn into a Nazi-only platform is not useful.VirginiaFor sure, that has been my response for a long time, when folks asked. If we all leave, then only the Nazis remain. And that is a real concern. I think that’s what we saw happen to Twitter, for sure. So many people left, and it is just a cesspool. Is Substack going to become a cesspool? I have no idea. I hope not. I also don’t want to be overly rosy-eyed. I’m sure there are Nazis lurking somewhere on Patreon. I’m hopeful this company is going to do a better job of responding to that situation than Substack did. But I have worked for media corporations my entire career. There are Nazis at all of them. That's just the disgusting reality of making media. It is what it is. But I am hopeful. I think Patreon really understands that that has been a huge frustration of a lot of us on Substack, and I’m hopeful that it’s going to be better here. And not to totally pivot from Nazis to technology, but—there are a lot of great features here at Patreon that we’re really excited about! One of the biggest ones for me is that you can now pay monthly for an Extra Butter subscription after Substack only ever letting me price it annually. That might be very inside baseball to a lot of you, but so many people have emailed and been like, "I would love to do Extra Butter. Can I pay monthly instead of annually?" And I always had to say no, and now I can say yes! CorinneI think the Patreon tier system is very appealing. And I also think there is a nice community element to Patreon that did exist on Substack as well, but I think also it was kind of like a wider Substack community, and on Patreon, it feels a little more unique.VirginiaThis is our community. We are our own ecosystem, which is pretty cool. And I also just want to briefly say on the tiered thing: One piece of feedback that came up a few times in the reader survey–it was not the main throughline, but more than a few people said it—was "we don’t like tiered payment systems. It doesn’t feel egalitarian." What are your thoughts on that? Because I’ll be honest, I hadn’t really thought about it, and then I was like, "Am I replicating a class structure?" I see that critique. People wanted one price for all of the content. And I also think my response is, if I’m going to do one price for all of the content, then that one price can’t be as accessible as I want it to be.CorinneWe do rely on listener support to do this work. I also think sometimes there are people who want one email a week, but not two. VirginiaSO it’s nice to offer different options. On the pricing thing, we had raised the price of Burnt Toast over on Substack up to $7 a month or $70 for a year of the basic subscription. And that was in part because we couldn’t really do as much with Extra Butter as we wanted with their technology limitations. Now that we’re over on Patreon, a regular paid subscription is only going to be $5 a month, and Extra Butter is $10 a month. So I like that now we have a much more accessible tier, and then there’s the higher tier for folks who do want to support more or want to get more content. I hope it doesn’t feel so much like a class system and more like I’m trying to give you options. That’s really how I’m thinking of it. CorinneYeah, that makes sense. VirginiaAnd of course, I’m always going to offer comp subscriptions, no questions asked. If someone just drops me an email and says they need it, I’m always happy to do that. Not as many people take me up on it as you would think. Nobody’s taking advantage of it. People always still feel like they need to explain. You don’t need to explain. I trust that you would support the work if you could. You don’t need to let me know about your student loans or your husband losing his job or whatever. I’m happy to give the comp. So that option still exists as well, and there will still be a lot for the free list too, but not these Extra Butter episodes. These are just for the Extra Butter folks!CorinneThis is where the real juice is.VirginiaAnd now we made it a class system. CorinneOh, sorry. The class system is juiciest, juicy, and no juice. Dry toast.VirginiaOh, man, thinking of the names has been the hardest thing as of this recording. I’m pretty sure the regular tier is now called Just Toast. I think that’s where we’ve landed. It’s Just Toast and Extra Butter. Y’all did make some great suggestions. There was a vocal minority support for Salty Butter. Mostly me, I was outvoted. Some people wanted dry toast, butter, extra butter. And I was like, "I think now we’re too in the weeds of ordering toast?" So, yes, Just Toast and Extra Butter is what we’re doing. CorinneI love that. VirginiaAnything else we should talk about with Patreon that people are likely to be struggling with in this first week? I do realize it’s annoying that if you’re not already a Patreon user, you’re going to have to come over from Subtack. You’re going to have to click the link in your email, come over, re-enter your credit card. We are making sure if you had an annual subscription on Substack, you get credit for all of the months you already paid for. But I’m sure there’s going to be some confusion about that. Bu remember: If you were paying $7 a month on Substack, you will now be paying $5 a month when you rejoin on Patreon. So good news there!CorinneAll right, let me read the first question. I would love your thoughts on building a new wardrobe after a significant size change. Not just seasonal flux situation, but the kind of change where literally none of your clothes fit anymore. Yes, there’s the shopping part, but I’m more interested in your perspective on the mental components in terms of both body change and style change, because what even is your style if you can’t shop at a lot of the same stores or sections of the store? How do you do this in an anti-diet way that doesn’t suck you into the restrictive world of flattering capsule wardrobes, especially when all the pants are bad, and going out tops, which may be long and flowy, are back.VirginiaGoing out tops are back?! I have not been leaving the house. That is not news I have heard. It doesn’t have to be back for you, is what I’ll say. What are your first thoughts on this question?CorinneWell, I have a lot of compassion. I feel like it sucks. It sucks! I do think it’s a mental hurdle to not only be dealing with changes in your own body, but also your accessibility to clothes.VirginiaIt is very jarring. And I hear what this person is saying about, how do I even know what my style is anymore? How do I have style now that I can’t shop in the same stores? I think that’s a real process that people go through, where you just suddenly feel like, "I don’t know what I like because what I used to like isn’t available anymore." So why would you know? It’s like when you go to a new country and eat a cuisine you’re not familiar with. You don’t know what you like because you didn’t grow up eating that food. And then you might discover you love lots of things. But you’re not like, oh, I have a go to menu order here. You’re learning it all. It’s not always as joyful as that. It’s okay to just be angry that that’s the reality. The industry should be better, and you should be able to still wear the same kinds of things you love, like just in your new size, and it shouldn’t be such a mind fuck. CorinneOne hundred percent.VirginiaThat said, I think there can be opportunities to reframe a little bit, where you can start to find something about your new shape that you appreciate and enjoy dressing that you didn’t highlight in your previous shape. Does that make sense? CorinneYes.VirginiaLike just to be extremely heteronormative and reductive about it: I have bigger boobs as a fat person than I did as a thin person, and I like dressing for my boobs more. That’s not going to be everybody’s experience. But I think I often look better in things than I did when I was a B cup? No offense, B cups. But I look cuter in some stuff now that I have boobs.CorinneThat’s awesome, I love that for you.VirginiaI understand that’s not a universal experience. A lot of people have really complicated feelings about having big boobs.CorinneI think another thing you could lean into is how stuff feels. If you’re trying on clothes or whatever, like, maybe do it without a mirror and be like, is this comfortable? Do I Like this color?VirginiaI think trying things on first without a mirror is always such a good way to try on clothes. because if it is not physically comfortable, it doesn’t matter how cute you look in it. So starting with that first and centering your experience of the clothes, not some external gaze’s experience of you in the clothes.CorinneI also feel like when you’re going through something like this, it can be a good time to experiment. I know that’s not always the most fun thing, but I was thinking about Nuuly or like, do you have a friend who’s a similar size who you could try on some of their clothes? Or maybe they’re getting rid of stuff and would give you stuff.VirginiaThis was kind of where I was going with "is there an aspect of your new shape that you enjoy." There can be styles that you wouldn’t have considered before that really do work on the body you have now. It’s fun to experiment and figure out what those are. And it might mean wearing stuff that you feel like, oh no, I never would have liked that. Or that’s not me at all. And a lot of it, you’ll still be like, that’s not me. I don’t like that. But you’ll find one or two things that really do work. Switching over into plus sizes, I started to play with proportions really differently in clothes.CorinneThat’s cool. VirginiaAnd I think one aspect of that was  getting more comfortable with the fact that I was plus size and that I was going to look bigger no matter what I did. I had to make peace with the fact that I can no longer trick people into viewing my body as thin, which I think if you’re midsize or upper straight sizes, is a whole Jedi mind trick we teach ourselves to do. You’re like, "I’m a 12, but I can pass for an eight." Or whatever. When I wore clothes as a straight size person, I was always looking for the slim cut, the skinny, to minimize, because I was trying so hard to stay in that box. And once that box is no longer available, it’s actually kind of liberating, because you’re like, "That’s just not even what we’re trying to do anymore." So I can now love wearing a wide-legged pant. Of course, we’ve talked on the podcast. This is not an instant thing. This is years of working at this. And those internalized things still come up. But it’s kind of freeing to think "If looking skinny is not the goal anymore, that goal is off the table, then what do I want to look like and what’s fun to explore?"CorinneYeah, I think that’s really good advice. Think about how you want to feel in your clothes, versus how you can look smaller.VirginiaAnd don’t you feel like for you–well, I don’t, I don’t know your timeline on this, so if I’m getting this wrong, just tell me. But I feel like your interest in exploring gender fluidity and stuff with fashion has come along with size changes?CorinneHmm, yeah, that’s a interesting thought. Sometimes I also relate it to getting older. I haven’t fully fleshed that out. But I think something about getting older also made me feel like, oh, I don’t need to be feminine to be hot or whatever.VirginiaYeah, definitely not. It’s another way it can open things up. Like, do you want to explore different gender expressions? Being older, you get to give fewer fucks, because no one’s going to confuse you for at 25 year olds. It’s, in some ways, such a relief not, it is not to try to be a hot 25 year old anymore.CorinneWhat we’re saying is let yourself feel whatever you’re feeling. It’s okay to be sad and angry. Let yourself feel free.VirginiaAnd if it’s caftan season or big pants season or whatever it is, you don’t need to wear a going out top. We’re not trying to be a hot 25 year old. That girl has has her whole life ahead of her, and she’s on a different journey. All right. I’ll read the next one. I just left my job to go to grad school full time, and I’m looking for ideas for making sitting at my desk in my home office for many hours a day, more appealing. What do the two of you consider essential for a work from home setup, from technology to lighting to snacks? I love this question.CorinneThis is such a good question. And I feel like this is something I am still very much working on.VirginiaWell, especially right now, because you’re not in your home office setup.CorinneBut even in my home home office! I feel like a comfortable chair is essential.VirginiaI’m about to break up with my chair. I’ve added things to it, like my physical therapist recommended a certain kind of cushion, and I’m just like, I think I’m trying to make a West Elm chair that’s never going to be the right chair for me work. It just sucks that the comfortable chairs are all real ugly.CorinneYes, and they’re like, $1,000.VirginiaThey’re $1,000 of ugliness. It’s not great. So that’s one. Since I don't have a comfortable chair, I would also say having reasons to get up every now and then is really helpful. I’m not of the school that sitting is killing us all. That’s not what I’m here to say. But if you have the ability, from your lower back’s perspective, getting up or just changing where you work throughout the day can be useful.CorinneI don’t even have a great setup for this at my house, but I feel like the ability to work one place and then move and work somewhere else can be really nice just for the brain. Sometimes you need a shift in perspective. I also think having a light for if you have to do Zoom or video calls can be helpful. VirginiaIt’s so annoying, but true. Investing in good lighting. I’d love to know other recs that people have, if they have one they love. I have worked from home and had a home office set up since 2005. So that’s 20 years working from home. And I was just thinking about this, my first home office, which I set up in basically a fugue state because I’d been laid off from my magazine job at the age of 25 and was like, okay, I’m going to be a freelance writer now. And with my last tiny paycheck from that magazine job, I went to the West Elm store and bought a desk, and to sit on, I bought an ottoman. See previous question about we’re not trying to be a hot 25 year old anymore! I think my back is still screwed up from perching on this little ottoman to type. It was cute, and I liked how it fit into the desk. But, like, terrible idea. Just a terrible setup. And then I did have some years where I worked on my couch, which I also do not advise. CorinneOh, I can’t do that. VirginiaI think that really gets uncomfortable. Also just brain-wise, it makes your work and your leisure time too mixed up. So I would say my number one thing is: To whatever extent you can do it in your house, whether it’s a guest room or a closet, whatever —have your workspace be somewhere other than where you sleep and eat and watch TV. This is really the most important thing to me. I need something I can shut a door on, so I know when I’m not working. But it has evolved over the years. I’ve had a lot of different setups, a lot of different things. I have a lot of home office privilege now, because we have this kind of bonus space that I was able to turn into my office, which is really nice and much bigger than I need it to be, but it’s great. Obviously, you don’t need that. But the comfortable chair, the lighting, all help. Snacks is a great question. I need a morning Diet Coke. I need lunch at 11:30 I’m not a wait all the way till noon. I’m not going to be a hero. I’m going to stop at 1130 for lunch most days. And then I need some chocolate in the afternoon.CorinneI’m not quite so scheduled with my snacks, but yeah, I need snacks.VirginiaThey’re important. So the thing you said about changing locations. I work in my home office until about 3:15 or 3:30 when my kids get home from school, and then I bring my laptop downstairs and we have a table where my younger kid sits to do their homework, and I do my work, side-by-side. That’s when I answer emails and stuff, usually. And it is nice to kind of switch gears and go downstairs.CorinneWhere my desk is in my house is kind of dark and then sometimes, if it’s really nice out, I like to sit at like, my kitchen table where it’s much sunnier.VirginiaNatural light is a nice feature in a home office. It’s not required, but it makes you feel less like you’re in a cave. Good luck! It’s fun to set it up. I also think, have some cuteness, like, have some plants, if you like plants, or fun art. Don’t buy a bad West Elm ottoman to sit on. But like, having it be a little aesthetic is nice.All right, I’m going to read this next one, which is a doozy of a question from OG Burnt Toasty Amy H. Thank you, Amy, for submitting this. I don’t know what I’m going to be able to add! Speaking of the horrifying state of the world, many more people are focusing on being prepared by creating bug out bags. These are bags of supplies you’d take if you had to leave your home the country where there was a major infrastructure failure, no water, heat, cooling, electricity, etc. They’re normally associated with preppers preparing for armed attack or civil war, but there are more mainstream accounts recommending this kind of preparation and weight loss as part of being able to get ready to handle martial law or other situations that might require such resources. I feel weird trying to tell people that weight loss probably won’t help and that their preparation focus. Being thin and nimble to avoid harm leaves out anyone with mobility disabilities, certain elderly folks, people in hospitals, etc. Any thoughts on how to be effective in this conversation about weight loss, not needing to be part of being prepared for distressing situations? I’m prepared for nothing. Corinne, do you have a bug-out bag?CorinneI don’t, but I this is something I’ve thought about. I mean, there are also places in the world where this is just part of being alive. Like if you live in a place where there are hurricanes or fires. So I think one thing is having stuff ready, but I think another thing that is nice to think about is how would you help your neighbors? Do you have people around you who are disabled? I mean, I don’t know what to say about the weight loss thing. VirginiaIt just feels like it’s going to show up fucking everywhere, is what I think. Like, really, really we’re preparing for the end of the world, and people are like, better lose weight for it!!!CorinneI mean, if you feel like you aren’t able to get out of your house by yourself, it’s good to have a plan. But I don’t think the plan needs to be a diet.VirginiaAlso how can you be sure of the timing? You don’t know how fast you’re going to lose that weight. Disaster could hit beforehand. You know, it could be, you could be in a plateau, like...CorinneAnd calories are really important for is your brain, which you might want to be using in a situation like this.Virginia The last thing we need is a hangry group of people trying to survive an apocalypse.CorinneThere are two ways to approach these apocalyptic scenarios. One is: How can I protect myself at all costs? And the other one is: How can I work within a network of people who may have things to offer and may also need things from me? We can help each other. So I would encourage people to think about it that way, rather than, "What can I do to train my individual body to be ready?"VirginiaGod, that’s so wise. So I guess when you’re in conversation with people, if they mention losing weight, you could start to pivot it towards have you thought about how you’re going to help folks in your community? Or, I’ve been worrying about the old lady down the block, like, I wonder if we should talk to her about what she needs. Especially if you live in one of these places where evacuations happen for wildfires or hurricanes or whatever. I mean, I’m just acknowledging I have a lot of East Coast privilege. Not that anywhere is safe, but I don’t live in a place where we are regularly facing this. I guess I just thought everyone I love is coming to my house? I have a lot of Cheez-Its in the basement! I’m pretty prepped on that front, so come on over. CorinneI just also don’t think that being thin necessarily makes you better able to survive a disaster. VirginiaNo. One of the prevailing theories about fatness is we’re the ones who survived the disasters. Like, how did we evolve to survive famines? Holding on to calories is something smart your body does to prevent against destruction.CorinneThere’s that whole paradox where, as you age, it’s actually better to have higher body weight. VirginiaYou need some reserves. Also for babies. If you have babies in the NICU dealing with health issues, weight is a big concern there because the more reserves they have, the more they can survive whatever they’re going through. So yeah. Really not a time to focus on thinness. Really a time to be glad if you’ve got some reserves. And think about how to help other people in your community. That seems super important.Corinneif you do want to exercise to have more mobility, or more ability to get around in an emergency scenario, that’s cool. You can focus on that without focusing on weight loss specifically. All right!What is the fall equivalent of my summer uniform of gauze or linen pants plus a plain t-shirt?VirginiaOh, I love this question. I love this summer uniform. First of all, I kind of want to go redo summer and wear a gauze pants and a plain t-shirt. A+ uniform choice. I have been thinking about this a lot lately, because my summer uniform was those Big Bud Press tank tops and some drawstring linen shorts was kind of what I was living in. So, similar concept. And I had some pants, too...Okay, I guess I was doing linen pants and a plain tee. It's me. I wrote this question. I don’t know what my full fall uniform will be. My hybrid summer/fall uniform until we’re fully into colder weather, is these ImBodhi jumpsuits that I have. I have a black one and I have a blue one, which I wear layered with either a cardigan or an open button down shirt over it. So it’s similar, because it’s like a flowy, wide leg pants with a tank top top, and then a lighter layer. And I’m kind of wondering if you could do the same thing of just adding a button down or a cardigan to your linen pants and plain t shirt? That will get you through the next couple of weeks before it’s we’re fully into fall.CorinneIs it not just jeans and a plain tee?VirginiaBut I feel like the linen pants feels a little more like polished maybe? Jeans might feel too casual? I would think you could go to jeans, but I am very interested in finding some comfortable non-jeans pants for fall. And I don’t know what they are yet. We talked about this last time. My quest continues.CorinneI like the idea of trousers, but I do think they’re hard to find.VirginiaYeah. I want some elastic waist trousers. CorinneOkay, I feel like, Lucy and Yak has some stuff like that, where it’s like, elastic waist, but it’s tapered, and they have a lot of fun colors. I think their sizing can be hard to figure out. VirginiaI had a bad experience with one of their boilersuit type jumpsuits, where I was trapped. I really needed a bug out bag for that apocalyptic situation in my closet. Barely came out alive. Anyway. Do you hone in on a seasonal uniform? Because I really do do this.CorinneI mean, I feel like my uniform is always just...VirginiaJeans and a shirt?CorinneOr shorts and a shirt? But I do tend more towards a button-down. VirginiaYou love a button-down. CorinneI mean, I definitely will wear things over and over again, but I don’t quite think of it as a uniform.VirginiaI love a uniform. I love reducing the decisions, especially during the week. I love having outfits that give me a zero body anxiety, because I found the thing. I guess, related to that first question, like, I found one formula that’s working for my body. Let me just replicate it. But every season, it’s like, oh, what will it be? So I don’t know, what with the colder weather coming, I haven’t cracked it yet this year. But we'll see. CorinneOkay, I’m going to read the next one. It seems like there are very few actively fat-positive bloggers these days. My question is, how does it feel to work with these bloggers, does it ever feel like tokenism? For example, Cup of Jo occasionally features a stylish fat person, but she posts far, far more outfits and people who can fit outfits and labels that are only straight sized. I’m often told at least Cup of Jo posts something for fat people, most bloggers don’t at all. It just feels so hurtful, like I wouldn’t create a blog post that promotes things that only a small percentage of the US population could wear. Eek, I don’t know if I’m being overly sensitive, so I’m curious how you handle it, or if you have a different perspective.VirginiaYeah, I think that’s pretty valid. I think it is very frustrating how much straight size bloggers and newsletter writers, especially in the fashion space, continue to forget that fat people exist and wear clothes. So I really hear this. Corinne, you’ve written about this on Big Undies several times like this. It is an ongoing problem.  CorinneYeah, I actually was just posting about this,  I posted, "New rule! You’re not allowed to use the word everyone or universal or like mankind in your marketing or brand name, if you only make up to a size extra large." I just think it’s like so common to overlook that. And I will say, because this person says, "I wouldn’t create a blog post that promotes things that only a small percentage of people could wear." But I do think we all have blind spots. I think you may not know the people you’re leaving out. I’m sure there are people I leave out, you know? You know, even though I strive not to.VirginiaGood point. How many blog posts contain adaptive clothing?CorinneYeah, or very short inseams. Or people who are allergic to certain materials, there are just so many different ways people can be. And, I have found some people are open to that feedback. And some people aren’t. I’ve had people who see my posts reach out to me then and be like, hey, I would like to include more options in this post I’m doing. How can I do that?VirginiaOn Cup of Jo specifically, I will say Joanna is someone who is very open to that feedback, and I’ve appreciated that about her. I mean, I am one of the stylish fat people she includes from time to time. And I would like her to include more! But recently, she featured a Swedish woman talking about her life, and she referenced Malia Mills swimsuits and said they come in so many sizes for all bodies. So I clicked through, and they go up to a size 16. And it’s not a large 16. And I posted a comment, "Hey, this is so great. It makes me want to move to Sweden. Also, this is not an inclusive brand." And immediately, Joanna was like, "Thank you so much. Yes, correct." So I think it is about offering consistent feedback to these folks and making sure they know that we’re noticing. And that means also noticing when they do it right.And I understand your point about tokenism, and I don’t know how we make progress past tokenism without like—she asks me to do something. I do it so that there’s a fat person on Cup of Jo. Do you know what I mean? And sometimes I don’t and I say "I’m busy. Try Corinne, try someone else." I do try to make sure they’re getting other people on their radar, because that’s part of my responsibility here, to share the platform. But I think we have to keep showing up to those spaces, as readers and as people who might be featured there. And the more we show up and the more we participate, the better it gets. And of course, it’s annoying that this work has to be done. But I do remember being a straight, size person and just truly not understanding this reality.CorinneAnd that Swedish woman is like, oh, here’s a great inclusive brand. It goes up to 16. But I’m someone who, like, most of the time when people are talking about inclusive stuff, they’re talking about "up to 3x," and often the 3x doesn’t fit me. So you’re always leaving someone out.VirginiaEven the most inclusive brands who do go up to a 3X or 4X are not including everybody. There’s no perfect way to do this. But there are better ways to do this. It’s better to include a brand that goes up to 3X than only goes up to 16, but it would be better still to include one that goes up to 5X or 6X. I think Kim France also is getting this message, and she comes from longtime fashion magazine land where nobody was above a size 12—that was unfathomable. And she’s open to it. She’s trying to do better. But there's also the reality that these are all bloggers who have financial relationships with certain brands. They’re sponsored by those brands, and those brands might not be the most size inclusive, and so they’re in a complicated situation. And that is why Burnt Toast relies on paid subscriptions, guys! That is why advertising-driven media is always going to be a little problematic. Because when you are a content creator who is reliant on brands for your income, not on your audience, you are going to do what those brands want. And that’s the problem with that whole system.CorinneSubscribe now!VirginiaI didn’t mean to turn that into a pitch, but I do just think it’s worth noting that this is one business model/ Of you personally don’t like that business model, there are options. And, choose who you’re paying for subscriptions with. There are people trying not to do it that way, but in order to do that, we can’t rely on sponsors. So the subscription model is the alternative. All right. Last question is a fun one. What is everyone doing for Halloween and Halloween costume ideas?CorinneWe’re recording this in mid-September. I do not have any Halloween ideas or any Halloween plans. VirginiaOkay, well, you are a child-free person, because Halloween has been discussed around here since approximately July, I would say. I had one kiddo who she and her friends were going to go as the K-Pop Demon Hunters girl band, but they just switched it to being dragons. I’m not sure if it’s a specific dragon or just dragons, so I’m waiting to hear more about that. And then my younger kiddo is deciding between Elphaba, which I think is going to be the one of the most popular costumes this Halloween, or the Grim Reaper. No matter what, I will be a witch, because I decided last year I have one costume for the rest of my life, and it is witch. So I will be a witch. That said, if she is Elphaba, I might also do the green face paint with her, and we could both be Elphaba. And I did float to Jack that he could be Glinda if he wanted, just to, like, round things out. He was like, I could be the lion. I was like, or better. And he was like, well, that would be better. So we’ll see. We’ll see if that happens. So that’s what we’ve got going on for Halloween. This is my theme of my episode. I’m like, have a uniform. Have a Halloween costume. Never have to make decisions.CorinneDo you guys just go to Spirit Halloween?VirginiaSometimes? Usually their dad actually is in charge of executing their costumes. CorinneOh, nice VirginiaThat's a little mental load I’ve handed off over the years. So sometimes he builds elements. Like, last year, my older kid was Zyborg. So there were a lot of elements of that costume, and he helped her source them, and they made some. When they were younger, I would spend money on a decent Halloween costume because it would go into our dress up box. So we have some Halloween costumes that have been played with for years and that we’ve been able to hand down. Like, we have a good dragon costume that I think both of them wore as little kids, and a ladybug costume. Do you have any local Halloween parties you go to or anything? Or is every year just kind of like whatever?CorinneI think every year is kind of like whatever. There is a neighborhood near me that goes really all out and shuts down a bunch of streets. People go wild. And so I often will, like, walk over to that with friends and walk around. VirginiaI mean, we have discussed Halloween is a hard holiday for fat people, the costume inclusivity, talk about sizing nightmares. If you are also a little bit of a Halloween hater, you can come sit us.CorinneYeah, I don’t love wearing costumes.VirginiaNo, it’s not my favorite, but I’m excited to see what Burnt Toasties dress up as. We’ll try to remember to do a thread. A chat in the chat room! Now that we’re on Patreon. Got to use the lingo! A chat room about Halloween costumes and see what people are dressing up as, because I do like seeing other people’s costumes. I just don’t want the added work myself.CorinneTotally.BUTTERVirginiaYou go first, because I have to remember my Butter.CorinneOkay, well, I’m going with a really classic Butter. My butter is potato chips. Because I just ate some. I’m still in Maine, as discussed. And there’s this really good potato chip brand Fox Family potato chips. They come in like a silver bag. They’re so good. They’re like, they’re better than Cape Cod, in my opinion.VirginiaThat's a major gauntlet thrown with two New Englanders. CorinneI know. And they have a salt and pepper flavor that I am really into right now.VirginiaThat sounds absolutely delightful. My Butter is a new end of garden season thing I’m doing, which is pressing flowers. Jack made me a flower press for my birthday back in April, and then I kind of forgot about it for a few months. And he was like, hey, we should use the flower press. And it was so fun! We picked some flowers, we put it in the press. We forgot about it for three weeks. We opened it up, and they were like... really flat. And I don’t know why that is exciting! And we put them in chunky acrylic frames I have that magnet together, so they were kind of like a nice modern way of because I feel like flower press art. It can be a little twee. It’s always darling. But it’s not like super my aesthetic. I’ve also heard people now suggesting mod podging them onto stuff, which I think could be fun to do with the kids. So we may, we might try some of that. CorinneThat could be a good costume. Mod Podge them onto some shirts or something. VirginiaI thought you meant go as an actual flower press. I was like, what? I tried to be a garden one year. It didn’t go very well.. I’m going to stick with witch. But thank you.CorinneYou could be a flower witch! VirginiaI could be a flower witch! That’s sort of my whole personality, right there. Flower witch. I’m always in my feelings in October about the garden wrapping up, and it’s nice to, like, preserve a little bit of it. It’s like a real low lift, low stakes, low lift. So, yeah, flower press. Well, this was a great episode. We are over here on Patreo! And thank you guys for coming along and checking it out with us. It’s going to be even better than what it was, but also basically the same thing. So don’t feel super stressed about the change. The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith (follow me on Instagram) and Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, and Big Undies! The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.Our theme music is by Farideh.Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!

You’re listening to Burnt Toast! Today, my guest is Emily Ladau, a disability rights activist, and author of Demystifying Disability. Our conversation today is about the many intersections between anti-fatness and ableism. This is such an important conversation, even if you feel like you’re new to both of these worlds. We investigate who is considered a “worthy” disabled person or a Good Fatty — and how these stereotypes so often pit two marginalization experiences against each other. Today’s episode is free but if you value this conversation, please consider supporting our work with a paid subscription. Burnt Toast is 100% reader- and listener-supported. We literally can’t do this without you!PS. You can take 10 percent off Demystifying Disability, or any book we talk about on the podcast, if you order it from the Burnt Toast Bookshop, along with a copy of Fat Talk! (This also applies if you’ve previously bought Fat Talk from them. Just use the code FATTALK at checkout.)Episode 213 TranscriptEmilyI am a disability rights activist. I am a wheelchair user. I’m the author of a book called Demystifying Disability: What to Know, What to Say, and How to Be an Ally. It’s a bit of a mouthful, but all of that is really just to say that I am very passionate about educating people about the disability experience, and doing it through a lens that recognizes that we’re all at a different point on the journey of thinking about disability and talking about disability. I really want to welcome people into what I know can be a sometimes overwhelming and uncomfortable conversation.VirginiaYou have been a disability rights activist since you appeared on Sesame Street as a 10 year old. I saw the clip. It’s just adorable, little baby Emily. I mean, first tell us about that if you want! Or if you’re sick of talking about it, I get it. But I would also love to know: When did your disability rights work morph into fat liberation work? And how do you see these two spheres intersecting?EmilyOn the Sesame Street note, my family likes to joke that I am totally milking that, because it happened when I was 10. But that was the first moment that I really understood that disabled people do have a place in the media. Prior to that, I had not seen almost anyone who looked like me, with the exception of two books that I read over and over again. And one other little girl who was also on Sesame Street who used a wheelchair.VirginiaWow.EmilyAnd I’m sure maybe somewhere else out there, there were other things. But I was an early 90s kid, and the media had just not caught up to showing me that I belonged. So having that experience is something that I really don’t take for granted.I like to joke that in many ways, I am the “typical” disabled person. If you look up a stock photo of someone with a disability, it’s probably a white woman using a wheelchair. Oddly enough, she’s probably also on a beach, holding her arms out. You know? VirginiaAs soon as you said it, I have a visual. I’ve seen that picture. Obviously, she’s on a beach.EmilyYes, so I am sort of the cliche version. But at the same time, I’m not. Because there’s sort of an “acceptable” disabled person, and she is the thin, pretty, white woman who is sitting in a wheelchair. I meet, I suppose, some of those traits, but I am someone who, in later years so far, has come to identify as fat and no longer sees that as the derogatory term that it was always leveraged towards me as.Any relationship that I have to fat liberation work has been sort of an evolutionary process for me. It’s newer to me. I didn’t understand when I was younger how that fit into disability rights work. But I see now that we can’t have those conversations separately. First of all, every issue is a disability issue. So every issue impacts disabled people. And second of all, the disability community encompasses every identity, every body type, every experience. There are more than a billion disabled people around the world. So you absolutely have every single possible body type within the disability community. And if we are not talking about fat liberation, if we are not talking about LGBTQIA+ rights, if we are not talking about ensuring that our work is meaningfully intersectional, then it’s not actually disability rights work.VirginiaBut it is tricky to figure out how all those things intersect and fit together for sure.EmilyI feel like I’m constantly playing a game of Tetris with that. And I don’t mean that to say, oh, woe is me. But more so, how do we get society to recognize how those pieces interlock with one another?VirginiaDo you mind sharing a little bit about how anti-fatness shows up in your own experiences? Sometimes it’s helpful to name those moments, because some people listening might think, oh, I’ve had that too, and I didn’t know to name it as anti-fatness, or, oh, I’ve been on the wrong side of that. And it’s helpful to hear why that was not helpful.EmilyThere is no clear direction to take this answer, because it’s impacted me in two diametrically opposed ways.The first is that I have been judged incredibly harshly as being lazy, as being unhealthy, as being someone who maybe doesn’t take care of myself in the way that I should. And the wheelchair is seen as the cause of that.On the flip side, I have also been treated as though disability is the only cause of anything going on in my body, and therefore I should be given a free pass if I am considered, as doctors would say, “overweight.”VirginiaIt’s like, Oh, it’s okay. You’re in a wheelchair. What can we do? We can’t expect you to go for a run.EmilyExactly. So you see what I mean. It’s either one or the other. I’m either bad and lazy or it’s like, oh, poor you. You can’t get up and exercise.VirginiaBoth of those are such judgmental, patronizing ways to talk about you and your body.EmilyThey’re super frustrating. I think that both of those are anti-fatness in their own right. But for me, it sends conflicting messages, because I’m trying to seek medical support for certain issues. And some doctors are like, “Lose weight!” And other doctors are like, “Well, we can’t do anything because you’re in a wheelchair.” And so both of those are very unhelpful responses.VirginiaOh man, it really speaks to the lack of intersectional care in medicine, that people don’t know how to hold these two facts together and also give you comprehensive medical care at the same time.EmilyI wish that we could just have disabled people speaking with medical students as a requirement in every single medical school program. But instead, I feel like we’re either completely relegated to the sidelines of conversations in medical school, or maybe we’re brought up in very clinical and dehumanizing ways, and we don’t stop to think holistically about a person.It’s interesting, because my mom has often said—and I should note, she has the same disability that I do. So she’s a wheelchair user as well. But she feels very strongly that a lot of other medical issues that I am dealing with now were overlooked when I was younger, because everybody was so hung up on my disability that nobody was offering me the support that I needed for other things that could have, in turn, prevented some of what I’m now navigating.So it seems like healthcare can’t hold multiple truths at once.They can’t think about your body and think about everything going on. It’s either you’re fat or you’re disabled.VirginiaGod forbid you have a health condition that is not weight linked and not linked to your disability. That’s going to throw them completely for a loop.EmilyYeah, it’s very much a binary. I think that it’s led to a lot of confusion among healthcare providers. Certainly, I know there have been delayed diagnoses on many, many things. I’ve also had it leveraged against me in terms of what I would consider chronic illness, because I would get sick pretty regularly when I was a child, and every time I would throw up, it would be thrown in my face: “Well you’re eating poorly. You’re not taking care of yourself.” And nobody thought to do anything to check what was actually going on. They just thought that I was not taking care of myself. Turns out I had gallstones and needed my gallbladder removed. But when people see the wheelchair, they don’t take me seriously.VirginiaNo, and let’s be clear: Gallstones is not a condition you can treat by eating salad. Like, that’s not something you can nutrition your way out of.EmilyI could not lettuce my way out of that one.VirginiaAre there any strategies you’ve figured out that helps you get a doctor to cut through some of those biases, or cut through some of that noise and actually focus on what you need them to focus on?EmilyI have to rehearse what I want to say in a doctor’s appointment. And I don’t think I’m unique in that. I’m sure that there are plenty of people who put together their notes and think through very carefully what they want to say before they go. As much as doctors tend to be frustrated when the patient comes in and it’s clear that they were reading WebMD, I’ve found I need to point them in the right direction, because at least it gets them started down the path that I’m hoping to explore.And I’m not saying that I think that I have years of medical school worth of expertise, but when I was little, I used to always complain to my parents, “You’re not in my body. You don’t know how I’m feeling.”VirginiaSo wise.EmilyAnd I think that that remains relevant. I’m not trying to be a difficult patient. But I have very strong awareness of what is happening internally and externally. And so if I come in and I seem like I have it together and I’m prepared, I feel like doctors take me more seriously. And I have a lot of privilege here, because I am a white woman. I communicate verbally. English is my first language. So in a lot of ways, I can prepare in this way. But I don’t think I should have to, to get the medical care that I need.VirginiaDoctors should be meeting us where we are. We shouldn’t be expected to do hours of homework in preparation in order to be treated with basic respect and dignity. And yet, it is helpful, I think, to hear okay, this labor can be beneficial, But it’s a lot of extra labor, for sure.EmilyIt is, and I’ve broken up with doctors over it. And I’ve also had doctors who I think have broken up with me, for lack of a better way to put it.I have had multiple doctors who have just kind of said, “We don’t know how to deal with you, therefore we are not going to deal with you.” And in seeking the care that I need, I have run into walls because of it, whether it’s a literal, physical wall in the sense that I tried to seek care, because I was having GI distress. I tried to go see the doctor, and the doctor’s office was not wheelchair accessible, and they told me it was my fault for not asking beforehand.VirginiaI’m sorry, what? They’re a doctor’s office.EmilyThe one place I actually thought I would be fine and not have to double check beforehand. So that’s sort of the physical discrimination. And then getting into the office, I’ve had doctors who have said, “I’m sorry, I don’t know how to help you.” Go see this specialist. I’m sorry, I don’t know what I can do for you, and then not return my calls.VirginiaOh, I knew this conversation was going to make me mad, but it’s really making me mad.EmilyAnd I say all of this is somebody, again, who has health insurance and access to transportation to get to and from doctors, and a general working knowledge of my own body and the healthcare system. But I mean, if it’s this much of a nightmare for me, multiply that by other marginalized identities, and it’s just absurd.VirginiaIt really is. You’ve kind of led us there already just in talking about these experiences, but I think there’s also so much ableism embedded in how we talk about weight and health. And I thought we could unpack some of that a little bit. One that you put on my radar is all this fearmongering about how we all sit down too much, and sitting is killing us. And if you have a job that requires you to sit all day, it’s taking years off your life. And yet, of course, people who use wheelchairs are sitting down. EmilyI think about this a lot, because I would say at least a few times a year some major publication releases an article that basically says we are sitting ourselves to death. And I saw one I know at least last year in the New York Times, if not this year,VirginiaNew York Times really loves this topic. They’re just all over there with their standing desks, on little treadmills all day long.EmilyI actually decided to Google it before we chatted. I typed in, “New York Times, sitting is bad for you.” And just found rows of articles.EmilyThe first time that this ever really came up for me was all the way back in 2014, and I was kind of just starting out in the world of writing and putting myself out there in that way as an activist. And I came across an article that said that the more I sit, the closer I am to death, basically.It’s really tough for me, because I’m sure there’s a kernel of truth in the sense that if you are not moving your body, you are not taking care of your body in a way that works for you. But the idea that sitting is the devil is deeply ableist, because I need to sit. That does not mean that I cannot move around in my own way, and that does not mean that I cannot function in my own way, but it’s just this idea that sitting is bad and sitting is wrong and sitting is lazy. Sitting is necessary.VirginiaSitting is just how a lot of us get things done every day, all day long.EmilyRight, exactly.VirginiaSure, there were benefits to lifestyles that involved people doing manual labor all day long and being more active. Also people died in terrible farming accidents. It’s all part of that romanticization of previous generations as somehow healthier—which was objectively not true. EmilyYou make such a good point from a historical perspective. There’s this idea that it’s only if we’re up and moving and training for a 5k that we’re really being productive and giving ourselves over to the capitalist machine, but at the same time, doing that causes disability in its own way.VirginiaSure does. Sure does. I know at least two skinny runners in my local social circle dealing with the Achilles tendons ruptures. It takes a toll on your body.EmilyOr doing farm labor, as you were talking about. I mean, an agrarian society is great until you throw your back out. Then what happens?VirginiaThere are a lot of disabled folks living with the consequences of that labor. EmilyAnd I’ve internalized this messaging. I am not at all above any of this. I mean, I’m so in the thick of it, all the time, no matter how much work I read by fat liberation activists, no matter how much I try to ground myself in understanding that fatness does not equal badness and that sitting does not equal laziness, I am so trapped in the cycle of “I ate something that was highly caloric, and now I better do a seated chair workout video for my arm cycle.” And I say this because I’m not ashamed to admit it. I want people to understand that disabled people are like all other people. We have the same thoughts, the same feelings. We are impacted by diet culture.VirginiaGetting all the same messaging.EmilyWe are impacted by fat shaming. And I know that no matter what I would tell another person, I’m still working on it for myself.VirginiaWell, I always say: The great thing about fat liberation is you don’t need to be done doing the work to show up here. We are all in a messy space with it, because it’s it’s hard to live in this world, in a body, period, And you have this added layer of dealing with the ableism that comes up. I mean, even in fat liberation spaces, which should be very body safe, we see ableism showing up a lot. And I’d love you to talk a little bit about how you see that manifesting.EmilyI think that this is a problem across pretty much every social justice movement. I just do Control F or Command F and type in the word “disability” on a website and see if it comes up in the mission statement, the vision, the values, what we care about, our issues. And so often it’s not there and you have to go digging.And I don’t say this to say that I think disability should be hierarchically more important than any other form of marginalization. I’m saying disability should be included among the list of marginalizations that we are focusing on, because it coexists with all other identities. And yet in a lot of fat liberation spaces, I still feel like I am not represented. I don’t see myself. It’s still a certain type of body, and that body is usually non-disabled or not disclosing that they have a non-apparent disability.I have a few people that I come across who I would say are in the fat liberation, fat activism spaces where they are also apparently disabled, and they are loud and they are proud about that. But for the most part, I still don’t see myself. And I think that’s where the ableism comes up, is that we are still celebrating only certain types of bodies. It’s very interesting when you’re in a space where the point is to celebrate all bodies, and yet all bodies are still not celebrated.VirginiaWell, and I want to dig into why that is, because I think it’s something really problematic in how fat politics have developed in the last 10-20, years, As the Health at Every Size movement gathered steam and gathered a following, the message that was marketable, that was easy to center and get people interested and excited about, was you can be healthy at every size. And because we have such an ableist definition of what health is, that meant, let’s show a fat person running. Let’s show a fat person rock climbing. Let’s show a fat ballerina. Let’s show a fat weight lifter, and then you’re automatically going to exclude so many people. So, so many people of other abilities.We had the folks from ASDAH on, who are the keepers of the Health at Every Size principles, and they’ve done a lot of work in recent years to start to shift this. They recognize that there was a real lack of centering disability, and I am really impressed with that. But in terms of the way the mainstream media talks about these concepts, certainly the way I talked about them in my own work for years, that mainstreaming of Health at Every Size was embedded with a lot of ableism.EmilyAnd I came to Health at Every Size pretty early on in my quest to lean into fatness and stop with the internalized body shame. But instead, I think it led to internalized ableism, because I then thought, well, if I’m not going to go climb Mount Everest, am I really living up to the principles of Health at Every Size?VirginiaThere was an expectation that we all had to be exceptional fat people. And that you had to be a mythbuster. And the reality is that fat people, just like any people, are not a monolith, and we don’t all want to rock climb, and we can’t all rock climb, and fatness can coexist with disability. It didn’t make space for that.EmilyWe say the same thing about the disability community, And in the same way that there is the “good fat person,” there is the “good disabled person.” There’s the disabled person who is seen as inspirational for overcoming hardship and overcoming obstacles. And I can’t tell you how many times I have been patronized and infantilized and treated as though it’s a miracle that I got out of bed in the morning. And I like to say to people, it’s not inspiring that I got out of bed in the morning, unless you happen to know me well and know that I’m not a morning person, in which case, yes, it is very inspiring.VirginiaI am a hero today. Thank you for noticing.EmilyI mean, I say that as a joke, but it’s true. There’s nothing inspiring about the fact that I got out of bed in the morning, but in order to be performing at all times as the good disabled person, you have to show up in a certain way in the world. And I feel like that pressure is on me doubly, as a disabled fat person.Because not only do I have to be the good disabled person who is doing my own grocery shopping, but I need to be mindful about what it is that I’m grocery shopping for.I need to be eating the salad in front of people instead of something with a lot of cheese on it, right? So I feel like, no matter what I do when I’m in public, I’m putting on a performance, or at least I’m expected to. I’ve started to be able to work through that. Years of therapy and a healthy relationship. But for a very long time, if I wasn’t the ideal disabled person and the ideal fat person in every way, then I was doing something wrong, rather than that society was wrong for putting that on me.VirginiaAnd it just feels like that’s so much bound up in capitalism, in the way we equate someone’s value with their productivity, with their ability to earn and produce and achieve. I haven’t lived as a disabled person, but I have a kid with a disability, and in the years when we were navigating much more intensely her medical condition, I definitely felt the pressure to be the A+ medical mom, the mom of the disabled kid. There are a lot of expectations on that, too. I had to know the research better than any doctor in the room. I had to have all these strategies for her social emotional health. And I had to, of course, be managing the nutrition. And I can remember feeling like, when do I get to just exist? Like, when do we get to just exist as mother and daughter? When do I get to just be a person? Because there was so much piled on there. So I can only imagine lit being your whole life is another level.EmilyI feel like I’m always putting on a show for people. I always need to do my homework. I always need to be informed. And this manifested at such an early age because I internalized this idea that, yes, I’m physically disabled. I can’t play sports. So I need to make academics into my sports, and I need to do everything I can to make sure I’m getting As and hundreds on every test. And that was my way of proving my worth.And then, well, I can’t be a ballerina, but I can still participate in adaptive dance classes. And I try to get as close as I can to being the quote, unquote, normal kid. And let me say there’s, there’s nothing wrong with adaptive programs. There’s nothing wrong with all of those opportunities. But I think that they’re all rooted somewhat in this idea that all disabled children should be as close to normalcy as possible. Some arbitrary definition of it.VirginiaYes, and the definition of normal is again, so filtered through capitalism, productivity, achievement. We need different definitions. We need diversity. We need other ways of being and modeling. EmilyAbsolutely. And what it comes down to is your life is no less worth living because you’re sitting down.VirginiaAmazing that you have to say that out loud, but thank you for saying it.EmilyI really wish somebody had said it to me. There’s so much pressure on us at all times to be better, to be thinner, to make our bodies as acceptable as possible, in spite of our disabilities, if that makes sense.There are thin and beautiful and blonde, blue-eyed, gorgeous women with disabilities. And I’m not saying that that’s my ideal. I’m just saying that’s mainstream society’s ideal. And that’s the disabled woman who will get the role when the media is trying to be inclusive, who will land the cover of the magazine when a company is trying to be inclusive. But I don’t feel like I’m part of that equation. And I’m not saying this to insult anybody’s body, because everybody’s body is valid the way that it is. But what I am saying is that I still don’t feel like there’s a place for me, no matter how much we talk about disability rights and justice, no matter how much we talk about fat liberation, no matter how much privilege I hold, I still feel like I am somehow wrong.VirginiaIt’s so frustrating. And I’m sorry that that that has to be your experience, that that’s what you’re up against. It sucks.EmilyDo you ever feel like these are just therapy sessions instead of podcasts?VirginiaI mean. It’s often therapy for me. So yes.Not to pivot to an even more uplifting topic, but I also wanted to talk about the MAHA of it all a little bit. Everything you’re saying has always been true, and this is a particularly scary and vulnerable time to be disabled.We have a Secretary of Health who says something fatphobic and/or ableist every time he opens his mouth, we have vaccine access under siege. I could go on and on. By the time this episode airs, there will be 10 new things he’s done that are terrifying. It’s a lot right now. How are you doing with that?EmilyIt’s really overwhelming, and I know I’m not alone in feeling that. And I’ll say literally, two days ago, I went and got my covid booster and my flu vaccine, and I was so happy to get those shots in my arm. I am a big believer in vaccination. And I’m not trying to drum up all the controversy here,VirginiaThis is a pro-vaccine podcast, if anyone listening does not feel that way, I’m sorry, there are other places you can work that out. I want everyone to get their covid and flu shots.EmilyI give that caveat because in the disability community, there’s this weird cross section of people who are anti-vaccine and think that it’s a disability rights issue that they are anti-vaccine. So it’s just a very messy, complicated space to be in. But I make no bones about the fact that I am very, very pro-vaccine.More broadly, it’s a really interesting time to be disabled and to be a fat disabled person, because on the one hand, technically, if you’re immunocompromised or more vulnerable, you probably have better vaccine access right now.VirginiaBecause you’re still in the ever-narrowing category of people who are eligible.EmilySo somehow being disabled is working out in my favor a little bit at the moment, but at the same time, as I say that, RFK is also spreading immense amounts of incorrect information about disability, about fitness, about what bodies can and should be doing. And he’s so hung up on finding the causes and then curing autism.VirginiaNobody asked him to do that.EmilyYeah. Like, no one. Or, actually, the problem is a few people said that they wanted it because people are very loud. Also, I saw that he reintroduced the Presidential physical fitness test.VirginiaLike I don’t have enough reasons to be mad at this man. I was just like, what are you doing, sir?EmilySo on the one hand, he’s sort of inadvertently still protecting disabled people, if you want to call it that, by providing access to vaccines. But mostly he’s just making it a lot harder to survive as a disabled person.I am genuinely fearful for what is going to happen the longer he is at the helm of things and continues to dismantle basic access to health care. Because more people are going to become disabled. And I’m not saying that being disabled is a bad thing, but I am saying, if something is completely preventable, what are you doing?VirginiaRight? Right? Yes, if we lose herd immunity, we’re going to have more people getting the things we vaccinate against.EmilyMany of the major players in the disability rights movement as it was budding in the 1960s and the 1970s were disabled because of polio. I am very glad that they existed. I am very, very glad that these people fought for our rights. I’m also very, very glad that there’s a polio vaccine.VirginiaI guess this is a two part question. Number one, is there anything you want folks to be doing specifically in response to RFK? I mean, call your representatives. But if you have other ideas for advocacy, activism work you’d like to see people engaging in. And two, I’m curious for folks who want to be good disability allies: What do you want us doing more of?EmilyI am a big believer in focusing on things that feel attainable, and that doesn’t mean don’t call your reps, and that doesn’t mean don’t get out there and be loud. But sometimes starting where you are can make the most difference. And so if it feels really overwhelming and you’re not gonna get up tomorrow and go to Washington, DC and join a protest, that’s okay. If you don’t feel like you have the capacity to pick up the phone and call your representatives tomorrow, that’s okay, too. But if you can impact the perspective of one person in your life, I genuinely believe that has a ripple effect, and I think that we underestimate the power of that. Throw one stone in the ocean. All of those ripples create the wave. And so if you have somebody in your life who is being ableist in some way, whether it is through anti-vax sentiment, whether it is through the language that they use, whether it is through the assumptions that they make about people with disabilities, try to take the time to educate that person. You may not change the whole system. You may not even change that person’s mind. But at least give them an opening to have a conversation, offer them the tools and the resources point them in the right direction. And I know that that’s really hard and really exhausting, and that sometimes it feels like people are a lost cause, but I have been able to meet people where they are in that way. Where, if I show up with the research, if I show up with the resources, if I say I’m willing to meet you halfway here, I’m not demanding that you change all your views overnight, but will you at least give me a chance to have a conversation? That’s genuinely meaningful. So that’s my best advice. And I know that it’s not going to change everything, but I’m still a believer in the power of conversation.VirginiaThat’s really helpful, because I think we do avoid those conversations, but you’re right. If you go in with the mindset of, I don’t have to totally change this person on everything, but if I can move the needle just a little bit with them, that does something I think that feels a lot more doable and accessible.EmilyAnd I think it also is about honoring your own capacity. If you are a person who is marginalized in multiple ways, and you are tired of having those conversations, it is okay to set that weight down and let somebody else have the conversations.VirginiaThat is a good use of the able-bodied allies in your life. Put us to work tell us to do the thing because it shouldn’t be on you all the time.EmilyAnd I’m more than happy to have these conversations and more than happy to educate but it’s empowering when we can do it on our own terms, and we’re not often given that opportunity, because we have to be activists and advocates for ourselves at every turn. And so sometimes when somebody else picks up that load, that means a lot.ButterEmilyI thought about this a lot.VirginiaEverybody does. It’s a high pressure question.EmilyI am in the last stages of wedding planning. So my recommendation is more from a self care perspective. When you are in the throes of something incredibly chaotic, and when you are in the throes of navigating the entire world while also trying to plan something joyful—lean into that joy. My recommendation is to lean into your joy. I know I could recommend like a food or a TV show or something, but I think it’s more about like, what is that thing that brings joy to you? I bought these adorable gluten-free pumpkin cookies that have little Jack O’Lantern faces on them. And I’m doing my re-watch of Gilmore Girls, which is a wildly problematic and fatphobic show, and ableist.VirginiaIt sure is. But it’s such a good comfort watch too.EmilyIt’s making me feel a little cozy right now. I think my recommendation is just lean into your joy. You don’t need to solve all the world’s problems. And I don’t say that without complete and total awareness of everything going on in the world. I’m not setting that aside. But I’m also saying that if we don’t take time to take off our activist hats and just be for a few moments, we will burn out and be much less useful to the movements that we’re trying to contribute to.So I hope that is taken in the spirit with which it was given, which is not ignoring the world.VirginiaIt’s clear you’re not ignoring the world. But when you’re doing a big, stressful thing, finding the joy in it is so great.Well, my Butter is a more specific, more tangible thing, but it’s very much related to that, which is my 12 year old and I are getting really into doing our nails. And my Butter is bad nail art because I’m terrible at it, but it’s giving me a lot of joy to, like, try to do little designs. I don’t know if you can see on camera.EmilyI’ve been looking at your nails the whole time, and I love the color. It’s my favorite color, but can you describe what’s on it?VirginiaSo I’ve done like, little polka dots, like, so my thumb has all the polka dots in all different colors, and then every finger is like a different color of polka dots. I don’t feel like the colors are translating on screen.EmilyAnd by the way, it’s a bright teal nail polish.VirginiaIt’s a minty green teal color. My 12 year old and I, we watch shows together in the evening after their younger sibling goes to bed. And we just like about once a week, she breaks out her Caboodle, which brings me great joy, as a former 80s and 90s girl, that has all her polishes in it, and we sit there and do our nails. And it’s very low stakes. I work from home, it doesn’t matter what my nails look like. Last night, I tried to do this thing where you put a star shaped sticker on, and then put the polish over it, and then peel off the sticker to have like a little star stencil. It was an utter fail, like I saw it on Instagram. It looked amazing. It looked like trash on my nails. But it’s like, so fun to try something crafty that you can just be bad at and have fun with.EmilyOh, I love that for you. I really miss the days where I would wear like, bright, glittery eyeshadow and stick-on earrings.VirginiaIt is totally bringing me back to my stick on earring years. And I have all these friends who get beautiful nails done, like gels, or they have elaborate home systems. And I’m just, like, showing up to things with, like, a weird cat I painted on my nail that’s like, half chipped off.EmilyI think that’s the right vibe for the moment.VirginiaIt’s super fun and a good bonding activity with tweens who don’t always want to talk to their mom. So it’s nice when we get there.EmilyYou’re reminding me to go hug my mom.VirginiaPlease everyone, go hug your moms, especially if you were once 12 years old! Emily, this was wonderful. Thank you for taking the time to talk with us. Tell folks where we can find you and how we can be supporting your work.EmilyYeah. So I would say the best place to find me is Substack. My Substack is called Words I Wheel By or you can find me on Instagram. But most importantly, I just love connecting and being here to support people wherever they are on their journey. So I hope people will take me up on that.VirginiaThank you, and I always appreciate you in the Burnt Toast comments too. So thanks for being a part of the space with us.The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith (follow me on Instagram) and Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, and Big Undies.The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.Our theme music is by Farideh.Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!