
The Burnt Toast Podcast [PREVIEW] Hot People Problems
Welcome to Indulgence Gospel After Dark!
We are Virginia Sole-Smith and Corinne Fay, and it's time for your December Extra Butter episode.
Today we've got a couple of rants and answers to your listener questions. On the agenda:
⭐️ The tyranny of School Spirit Weeks — especially during the holiday season!
⭐️ How it feels to date another fat person 👀🔥
⭐️ How we're surviving — even thriving? — this Ozempic Season.
To hear the whole thing, read the full transcript, and join us in the comments, you do need to be an Extra Butter subscriber.
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Episode 222 Transcript
Virginia
Okay, before we dive in, I have a quick rant, which I think the moms listening are really going to feel me on. I would like, Corinne, to quickly rant about school spirit weeks. Because they're really breaking me a little bit this year. Do you know what school spirit weeks are like?
Corinne
Well, I saw this on our agenda, and I was like, wait, what grade is your oldest child in?
Virginia
She's in seventh grade.
Corinne
Okay, that is too young for school spirit weeks.
Virginia
Ohhh Corinne. Corinne. Sweet summer child. School spirit weeks start in preschool. I've been doing this the entire time I've had a child attending any sort of school.
Corinne
But that's the whole thing! That’s more work for parents.
Virginia
Correct. School spirit weeks predate a child's cognitive ability to have school spirit.
Corinne
That's not fair! Then who is it for? That makes it seem like it's for the teachers. Not that teachers don't deserve to have joyful spirit filled weeks.
Virginia
Sure, sure, I always want to appreciate the teachers. I don't know that the teachers enjoy it that much either though.
Corinne
Who is setting this up?The PTA or something?
Virginia
The PTA sets up some of them. Part of the problem in my own school community, is that school spirit weeks come from several different factions, and they don't appear to have ever coordinated their calendars. The elementary student council runs one, so it's a bunch of fifth graders organizing it. So they're jazzed for it! But they're expecting pre-K through fifth grade to participate, which doesn't make sense because the younger kids can't do it themselves. And then the week after they do theirs, we have Red Ribbon Week, which is a drug awareness thing. So there are themes like "it's no sweat to say no to drugs" so wear your sweatpants.
Corinne
Umm, okay.
Virginia
Because I'm sure wearing sweatpants as children completely prevented both of us from ever trying any drugs of any kind.
Corinne
I was really thinking I could come up with some great themes for that week. But I shall say nothing more of that here. Not for fifth grade.
Virginia
So the high school does their own thing. The middle school and elementary school are sometimes synced up, but sometimes they're not. Sometimes both my children have a random pajama day, but sometimes only one. They just come at us. Holiday spirit week is coming up this month, but they can't be too "it's Christmas" because they're trying to be non-denominational. But it'll be like, "wear your winter hats!" "wear something with snow on it!"
Corinne
Oh my gosh. Are your kids into it?
Virginia
I am fortunate that my kids historically only care about the day they can wear pajamas to school. Of all the themes of the week, that's usually the only one they're really like, "I want pajama day." And if they're allowed to bring a stuffy to school.
But I should also note that we may re-up this rant in June because for the final 26 days of the school year, my school does something called the ABC Countdown, where every day is a letter theme, and it's like "B is for beach day, bring your beach towel to school."
Corinne
What?!?
Virginia
It's like all counting down to the end of the year?
Corinne
Why are we making school harder? I don't think I ever participated in a Spirit Day, I will say.
Virginia
I do remember Crazy Hat Day being something I was very passionate about in middle school.
Corinne
That does sound like something you would be passionate about.
Virginia
But when they are like, "wear sports team stuff," we don't support sports teams, you know? Despite my recent foray into football, I'm not going to get either my children in an Eagles jersey. That's a non-starter.
I don't know sometimes they're low lifts, but even when they're low lifts, it's another thing to remember. And I have so many things in my brain at all times related to my children. I don't need another thing to remember.
I also do think, depending on the district and the depending the way it's executed, spirit weeks can be really ableist and classist. There is often pressure to buy special things. If it's a crazy sweater day and you don't happen to be a family that owns a whimsical Christmas sweater, what are you supposed to do? Go buy your kids something?
Not to sound like a Scrooge, because this is a December episode, but I'm coming out against all school spirit, period, as a concept, at the moment.
Corinne
As a child-free person, I'm with you. I would not be participating.
Virginia
Mine mostly don't care. So we mostly opt out. But every now and then, there's this last minute, suddenly caring about it and it's so much pressure. So I'm opening the floor up to the listeners on this one. I'm sure there are people who would like to share their own rants. And teachers, I want to know, do you hate it, too? Is it making your job better? In which case I will try harder to participate, because I want your job to be better.
Corinne
I mean, I'm just imagining having 20 kids at the end of the school year with beach towels. It doesn't sound like it would make teaching easier.
Virginia
And that's just B day. You've got 24 more to go.
Corinne
I'm sure 50 percent of kids lose their towels.
Virginia
What do they even do with the towels once they get to school? It's never been made clear.
Well, that's my rant about school spirit week. Now I have one more topic for us to get into before we go to listener questions. I have been struggling with a lot of getting dressed anxiety recently. It seems to have upticked for me. Do you go through periods where it is harder to figure out what to wear than others? How would you say it ebbs and flows for you?
Corinne
I want to say yes. I feel like there are a few different factors. I think one factor for me, and I assume probably for you, it's usually centered around social events, or if I have to leave the house.
Virginia
The worst.
Corinne
And then the other thing is if I just don't have anything comfortable to wear.
Virginia
Pants in particular. If the pants are not comfortable, God, it's just the worst. How are you going to make it through the day?
Corinne
One thing I've really been leaning into—which is probably a controversial thing to say, as someone who makes part of their living writing about clothes—I've really been leaning into sweatpants.
Virginia
Because we're trying to be drug free, obviously, for Red Ribbon Week.
Corinne
What even what was that? Sweat? No sweat to say no to drugs? It doesn't even make sense.
Virginia
It's actually quite sweaty to say no to drugs sometimes.
Corinne
I've been leaning into wearing sweatpants out of the house. I have some of the elastic ankle Old Navy sweatpants. And I did Google how do you make sweatpants look less like you're wearing sweatpants?
Virginia
Oh, and what did you learn? Because this is what I've been working on, too.
Corinne
I looked at a lot of pictures. One direction you could go is wearing a button down shirt with sweatpants, so you're kind of fancy on top, sweatpants on the bottom. I've seen some fancier shoes with sweatpants. Like a loafer or something.
Virginia
Oh, interesting. I hadn't thought about that.
Corinne
Another direction people go is full athleisure. Like, matching sweatshirt, make it a set. I also saw a lot of people wearing sweatpants with a nice t-shirt and jewelry. Like chunky necklaces, that kind of thing.
Virginia
Oh, that's fun. This is giving me a lot of good ideas.
Corinne
You could definitely search sweatpants outfits on Pinterest or something.
Virginia
Okay, this is very helpful.
I have realized, for me, 100% of the time, it's not actually about the clothes at all. I won't share too many details, because they aren't my stories to tell. But I'm in a rough parenting season, and I've had some stuff going on. Which is why spirit weeks are especially unhelpful to me. At the moment, there is enough on my plate.
Corinne
It is quite full. Yeah.
Virginia
And in the last two weeks, where it has been very intense, this wardrobe anxiety has spiked so much. One day, it happened right before I was going to get on a Zoom with you! It took me 25 minutes to pick out what to wear. Guys, Corinne does not care. I could show up in my pajama. There is no bar here.
Corinne
I probably wouldn't even have noticed.
Virginia
But I was trying on everything, and everything felt wrong, and everything felt uncomfortable. And I think this was just where my other stress was landing. But it was really hard to break out of the cycle and recognize that. Part of my brain was getting it. It was like, "Pick a shirt. It doesn't matter. You're getting on Zoom to talk to Corinne." But I couldn't do it. I was totally just spiraling. So the spiral part of my brain was just like, "Should I layer somehow??"
So my question is: What do you do when you're in that panic spiral to break out of it? Because logic was not working.
Corinne
That is a great question. I'm having so many different thoughts. Next time, you could text me and say, "What should I wear to the Zoom?"
Virginia
I mean, that is a great solution to that specific problem.
Corinne
Should we start doing spirit weeks for Zoom, where we show up to record in our pajamas?
Virginia
Or sweatpants, no sweat?
Corinne
It's a great question. How do you stop yourself when you're literally spiraling?
Virginia
Because you’re never going to make it better. Trying on three more outfits won't make you like any outfit any better.
Corinne
I always end up with a pile of stuff on my bed that then I later just scrape onto the floor and into a laundry basket of shame.
Virginia
I'm doing that load of shame laundry right now. It's so pointless. But the fact that I did it before talking to you was really clarifying that this is about something else. Because obviously, that's not normally something I stress about.
And then, anytime I had to leave the house for even minor stakes, like school pickup or kids' appointment or something where I was going to be visible, it would happen again. And I did stress shop a little bit. I will say, I don't think that's the solution. But I did stress shop, and I did at least specifically target my stress shopping, where I was like, "I am trying to get a very cozy sweatshirt. That is my goal right now". Because, to your point about comfort, I was like, I think if I feel physically cozy and comfortable in what I'm wearing, it will lower my stress a little bit.
Corinne
You have also talked in the past about being a real uniform dresser.
Virginia
Yes. I have a basic cold weather uniform of joggers and a sweater or joggers and a button down. So this is the other reason I knew, okay, it's not about the clothes. Because I already have the uniform. But suddenly the uniform felt completely wrong. And I was like, no, no, this isn't what I should wear.
So I don't have answers. I'm just throwing it out there because I bet other folks have experienced this. And it sucks! If this is a place your anxiety goes it just is a really hard thing to break out of. But dressy sweatpants, I think, is, is my uniform.
And maybe one other idea is: When I can feel it's going to be a week like that, just decide ahead of time that it's dressy sweatpants every day. This is not the week to try on the jeans that you keep trying to convince yourself work.
Corinne
That's probably wise. Maybe if you find yourself spiraling, and it's like, how can you snap yourself out of it? Put on music. Eat something. Or do something else to like, bring you back down to earth.
Virginia
I think your idea about texting someone, like texting you, or texting someone else and being like, "I'm in a wardrobe spiral. Tell me what to wear," is really good.
Just so people don't worry too much, I have a lot of support. Things are okay. It's just I noticed this was where the anxiety was showing up, and it wasn't a useful place for it to show up. And I thought, hey, it feels sort of like a Burnt Toast topic.
All right, should we get into questions?
Corinne
Yes, I'll read the first question.
Is it affirming to date another plus size person? I feel like it would be, and it's something I want.
Virginia
Hell yes. Thumbs up for me.
Corinne
Yeah. I also feel like hell yes.
Virginia
I mean, look, mixed weight relationships happen all the time. They're very normal. It is totally fine to be a fat person with a thin person. Fat people are sexy and attractive to all people. So it is not like only other plus size people will find you attractive. But I think there's some comfort and safety and a shared language.
Corinne
I agree with that. I think part of what has been affirming for me is also just being like, yeah, I am attracted to other fat people. So it makes sense that other people would be attracted to me.
Virginia
Yes, yes. 100 percent. I completely co-sign that. It's very freeing and fun to realize and explore.
Jack and I call it "hot people problems." Like, you know, if your pants don't fit, you know, leggings fall down a lot. Just all the ways that, fat bodies move through the world and are not accommodated. It's like we have this shorthand joke, like, "whoops, hot people problems."
Corinne
That's really sweet. I love that. Like, you knock something over with your butt, and you're like, "hot people problems."
Virginia
Hot people problems! And I think it's really fun to have someone you spend a lot of time with be someone who really gets that and is in it with you, right?
Corinne
And I love that reframing where you're like, "oh, like, I did something I could be embarrassed of," but instead it's a positive thing.
Virginia
It doesn't feel embarrassing. It's just welp, that's happening again. And I could imagine being with a straight-size partner, even someone who's super affirming, and super into your body, you would still would feel a little more vulnerable sharing some of that stuff.
Corinne
Yeah totally. I mean, I will also say, even if you're both plus size, like, you could still have very different experiences of stuff.
Virginia
Everyone has their own stuff with their body and their history of their body. I mean, we answered that question last month about when one person is pursuing weight loss and one person is not, and how to navigate those sorts of things. All of that can still come up. So I don't think it's just "look for someone in a bigger body," but leaning into "you find bigger bodies attractive" is really empowering and great.
Corinne
Totally agree.
Virginia
All right, I'll ask the next question. How are you both feeling towards the scale and seeing your weight? I'm navigating this in the later stages of recovery. Why do numbers hold so much power over us?
Corinne
A great question. In some ways, I feel I am the wrong person to answer this, because I feel less activated by seeing my weight. I think part of my own internal work has just been caring less about numbers and letting a number just be a number. Measuring different parts of my body to figure out if clothes will fit, getting weighed at the doctor's office, it's all whatever.
But I know that numbers are really hard for a lot of people.
Virginia
Would you say there was a time in your life where numbers were a lot harder for you?
Corinne
My relationship to weight numbers, at least for a long time, was, like, I actually am not able to control this, you know? Or the effort to control it is insane. So, like, why?
I think I also realized early on that different people weighed such different amounts. I remember as maybe a teenager realizing whoa, I weigh a lot more than my mom, but we're the same pant size. Obviously not true anymore. But I don't know, weight is so arbitrary in some ways.
Virginia
I think what you're articulating is where most people are trying to get! I think it's a really great place to be, and I'm there a lot of the time, and then I'm not always. And so I'm sort of a middle of the road on this one.
I should also say, I've never been in formal recovery from an eating disorder. I think if you're doing that work, this is something to really be working with your therapy team about. So that's sort of a little different than what Corinne and I can share here. But I do think that's the goal. I do think there's a lot of power in letting the numbers have less power.
I think where I've been able to make that progress is on clothing sizes. Because just learning the absolute complete lack of science or logic or rhyme or reason to women's clothing sizes is maddening but liberating. I am able to absolutely not care, and have a completely neutral reaction, to whether I'm in the extra large in a line or the 3X in a line or any size. Other than I'm annoyed if I'm in the 3X because I'm like, "well, this is fake size inclusion." But I'm not taking that on personally. Whatever size I'm wearing, I'm just like, oh, okay, that's what this brand is saying.
And I think that's hard. I think that did not used to be true for me. And I think a lot of people feel a lot of attachment to clothing sizes and so really learning to just have no reaction to those because they just tell you nothing.
Corinne
Maybe my not caring now actually comes from weighing myself so much as a younger person. Because I remember seeing how my weight fluctuates over the course of a day. It fluctuates with my period. I won't say numbers, but a thin person could be like, "I just went on a big diet and I lost X amount of pounds," and I'm like, "that's me taking a poop." I could fluctuate that much from morning to lunch time. I don't know.
Virginia
Everything you're saying is just gold. It is a lot about just continually reminding yourself of how meaningless these numbers are, how arbitrary and fluctuating they are, and giving yourself permission to step back.
And that's just not always the easiest thing to do, depending on your brain chemistry and a lot of other factors. I mean, I will say I'm completely not triggered by having my neck or my calves measured. That is just like, huh okay, that's what that is.
Corinne
In some ways, it is useful information to have. And if you can just let it be information, then there's no value attached to it.
Virginia
I wrote about weighing myself at the doctor's office out of curiosity a few months ago, and how that then did trigger a spiral, which surprised me. And so I don't want to weigh myself at the doctor's office ever again. So I think it's also worth noting, in which contexts will you feel more vulnerable engaging with these numbers? And that's a very vulnerable context for a lot of us. I am not going to have a scale in my house. I have daughters. I don't think scales are responsible home items, especially if you're a parent. But I do think I would feel more neutral if I were to randomly get on a hotel scale or something. Do you know what I mean? And part of it is, like, is this scale calibrated correctly? Did they put it on carpet and then it actually isn't working at all?
Corinne
That's a great point, too.
Virginia
They're not giving you an accurate number most of the time. So I think it's also fine to, just as a protective stance, say, "I don't engage with those numbers." But if you do happen to come across it, remembering that it tells you very little about yourself.
Corinne
Yeah. All right.
How are you managing to stay positive in the Ozempic World?
Virginia
Oh man. Are we staying positive?
Corinne
I don't know. Before we started recording, we were talking about how both of us, and everyone we know, is holding on by a thread.
Virginia
And not necessarily about Ozempic, just about life in general, the state of the world, government, etc. It's rough out there.
Corinne
It's feeling like a hard time to be alive.
Virginia
It's hard be a human with a body these days.
I think I am doing some protective things. I am continuing to curate my social media and unfollow people I need to unfollow. We talked about our love of Bad Skinny Girl TV, but I am mindful of how much skinny person content I consume, if I'm being honest. Especially when I was in the spiral in the last week of not being able to get dressed—because some of that did turn into body criticism. And I'm able to look at that now and be like, that was not useful. It's just a reminder that if you have something else going on, you'll turn it into dumping on your body, because that's what we've been taught to do.
I'm doing that Fattify Your Feed series on the newsletter now, because, I want to keep looking at awesome fat people. I want to lean into that, as opposed to the toxic content.
Corinne
Well, I have been slightly wondering if we're starting to see a kind of Ozempic backlash, because The Cut just published that piece about kind of like GLP1s making life a bit miserable.
Virginia
I was really interested they did that—because they certainly published some of the most pro-GLP1 content at the beginning of this whole thing.
Corinne
Yeah, but at this point, the “I'm taking a GLP1” content is boring, because there's been so much of it. So now we've moved on to actually, there's another side to this story. I think we're still in the everyone's getting skinny thing, but.
Virginia
I think, too, the more I hear people's stories and understand what goes into the decision for a lot of folks, the more I'm able to a have a lot of compassion for the decision. Very often it's not just "I want to feel better in my clothes," or whatever. Very often it is I need this to access fertility treatment. I need this to be treated fairly in my workplace. All of those sorts of reasons where it's like, you got to do what you got to do to survive and get what you need.
So I'm less triggered by people's individual choices around it at this point. It's just like any other pursuit of weight loss—sometimes it makes sense to pursue weight loss, not because I think it's the "best thing" for anyone, but because it feels necessary. And so I'm able to say, well, it's feeling necessary to that person. And I'm glad it's not feeling necessary to me personally, but that's a function of a lot of privilege.
I think another thing I want to say—and this is ironic, as someone who writes a newsletter and produces a podcast all about anti-fatness and diet culture—but being less engaged with the conversation is good sometimes. I don't mean be less engaged with our work, but, I've been thinking about it since we did our problematic faves episode. Like, it's okay to just let some of it skate by.
Corinne
Yeah. Well at this point it's like, the Ozempic conversation has been going on pretty hardcore since.... 2023.
Virginia
Yeah, January 2023.
Corinne
That's a long time to be getting mad every time.
Virginia
We're almost three years into it.
Corinne
I just can't get as enraged anymore.
Virginia
And the conversation is not changing, right? "Is this killing the body positivity movement? What does it mean to not have food noise?" I'm getting the same interview requests over and over. Journalists don't have any new questions to ask me about it. So there's not a lot of news, or if there is, it's actually old news being repackaged. It doesn't change the core conversation around its role as a weight loss drug . So I think just finding ways to let it be, and stay true to what you want to do.
Okay, okay, all right, I'm going to bring us up with the last question, which is a fun one.
What is your fav winter holiday tradition and or food.
Corinne
Love this question.
Virginia
I know you love these food tradition type questions.
Corinne
I love to talk about food. I mean, there's almost so many, it's hard to know where to begin. I feel like the first thing that comes to mind is soup. Aren't you not a big soup fan?
Virginia
You know, I'm reclaiming soup. I'm on a journey.
Corinne
I love soup so much.
Virginia
I'm coming around quite a lot on soup this season in particular.
Corinne
Okay, great. Soup. As far as holidays go, I feel like my family usually does a big breakfast-y thing on the day of Christmas, and I really enjoy that. Like waffles and grapefruit and stuff. I love that. But I'm really here for all of it.
Virginia
Yeah, really not turning away any food traditions. I am becoming a soup person. And I realized a lot of that was about letting go of diet culture. I think soup has a very diet-y connotation, and realizing that that it is possible for it to be not remotely diet-y is how I'm able to enjoy it now, with a lot of bread, with a lot of cheese. There are many very non diet-y soup.
Corinne
Creamy soups.
Virginia
Creamy soups! Love it.
Probably my favorite Christmas tradition, since my mom is British, we always have crackers on the table. For folks who don't know are these long paper tubes. They're twisted at each end. They have a firecracker thing inside that just makes a bang. And before you start the meal, everybody comes, there's this complicated way you cross your hands, and everybody pulls the crackers together all at once.
Corinne
Wow, that sounds so fun.
Virginia
It's always like herding cats. Like, is everyone ready to come to the table? Can we all hold the crackers? No one can ever remember how to move their hands. And then there are paper crowns inside and a joke, and sometimes little prizes and stuff.
It's the tradition that I always felt like, as a kid, and as a British American child, made my Christmas feel special, because my American friends didn't have those. So I really love that my kids have that it's really fun. I think it has become a lot more popular here now. It used to be really hard to find them when I was a kid, and now there are tons of options. So that's probably my favorite holiday tradition. Food-wise, we always do roast lamb for Christmas dinner, which I love, and my mom makes all the cookies. And there are endless Christmas cookies that I love.
I realized the other day, I think cookies are my favorite type of dessert. It's tied with brownies, but, I'm much more interested in a cookie than I am in a cake or candy situation. And so a holiday that's really celebrating many types of cookies, I just am like, yes please.
Corinne
I'm with you. I love cookies.
Virginia
I also make a lot of really good pasta sauces this time of year, like the ones that you let simmer for a bunch of hours. It's just comfort food season.
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Butter
Corinne
Should we do Butter?
Virginia
Yes, let's do some Butter. I have a pretty good Butter I think. I regularly update folks on what my 12 year old and I are watching for our mother/daughter bonding TV show time, and I have exciting news for the elder millennials, which is: We have begun our journey with Buffy the Vampire Slayer.
Corinne
I shall now admit that I have never watched.
Virginia
I had a feeling you might be one of the non-Buffy millennials.
Corinne
It's very embarrassing. I don't know.
Virginia
It's okay. Jack has never watched it either.
Corinne
I don't know why I've never seen it, because it also feels like it's just a cultural reference point.
Virginia
Well, and not to tell you your culture, but it's very big in queer culture?
Corinne
I was going to say. People are constantly like, you know, Buffy, and I'm like, no, I don't.
Virginia
Well, it's a very big part of my culture, and it's the show my siblings and I bond over the most, so they're very excited that she's being inducted into it. And she wasn't feeling it for the first few episodes. For any parents starting it with a child of generation alpha or something: They are used to a higher production value. They are used to a crisper television experience. If you're coming from Wednesday and going to Buffy, you're going to be like, wow, the monsters are less scary here.
But that's actually great because it also means it's more campy and less scary, which is good for a show we watch in the evening. And Joss Whedon, creator of Buffy, was canceled for being a toxic man. So we have to hold that together with it was also a show very much made by women, written by women, and starring women. So I canceled Joss Whedon and keep Buffy is how I'm navigating that one, and we'll be discussing it. But she's in now. She's hooked. We're in season two. It's great.
Corinne
Well, since you're recommending TV, I'm going to recommend TV, too. I'm going to recommend the show Pluribus, which has just come out on Apple TV. I have only watched three episodes. One of the reasons why I'm recommending it is because it takes place in Albuquerque, which is really fun for me to watch. And it's from the creator of Breaking Bad. So if you enjoyed that, you might enjoy this. It's, it is a little more like sci-fi, post-apocalyptic, but it's raising some interesting theoretical questions. And I feel like if you have enjoyed shows like Severance or The Good Place, you might like it.
Virginia
Okay, that sounds really interesting. How's the violence level? Because Breaking Bad got too violent for me.
Corinne
So far it's less than Breaking Bad, for sure. It is kind of like a post-apocalyptic thing. So the first episode involves a huge event, but, like, it's not a gory event.
Virginia
Okay, that's good to know.
Corinne
Whereas I'm remembering the first episode of Breaking Bad is pretty gory, I think they're dissolving a person in a bathtub or something disgusting.
Virginia
Yeah, it starts out hot and by the final season, I was like, I can't, I'm done. I can't do it anymore. I also have a lower threshold than most people for violent content on TV. But that sounds great.
This was a great episode! We want to hear your favorite food traditions. We want to hear all the things in the comments. Come chat with us.
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The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith (follow me on Instagram) and Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, and Big Undies!
The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.
Our theme music is by Farideh.
Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.
Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!
