The Burnt Toast Podcast

In this episode, the hosts discuss weight loss, anti-fat bias, and the challenges of making dietary changes. They also talk about their summer plans for Pride week, discuss gardening tips for dahlias, and share strategies for reframing dietary restrictions. One interesting topic they address is the use of weight loss drugs with children and the importance of avoiding toxic conversations around size.

Today Virginia is chatting with Kyle Ganson, PhD, an assistant professor at the University of Toronto’s Factor-Inwentash Faculty of Social Work who studies eating disorders in boys and young men. This is an episode a lot of you have been asking for—we don’t talk enough about boys and how they struggle with all of these issues. If you want more conversations like this one, please rate and review us in your podcast player! And become a paid Burnt Toast subscriber to get all of Virginia's reporting and bonus subscriber-only episodes.Content Warning: We talk about specific disordered eating behaviors and eating disorder symptoms in this episode. If any of that is going to be tricky for you, feel free to skip.Disclaimer: Virginia is a journalist and human with a lot of informed opinions. Virginia is not a nutritionist, therapist, doctor, or any kind of health care provider. The conversation you're about to hear and all of the advice and opinions she gives are just for entertainment, information, and education purposes only. None of this is a substitute for individual medical or mental health advice.BUTTER & OTHER LINKSChapter Nine of Fat TalkCanadian Study of Adolescent Health BehaviorsJessica Wilson on Burnt ToastCloud Cuckoo LandTomorrow, and Tomorrow, and TomorrowFAT TALK is out! Order your signed copy from Virginia's favorite independent bookstore, Split Rock Books (they ship anywhere in the US!). Or order it from your independent bookstore, or from Barnes & Noble, Amazon, Target, or Kobo or anywhere else you like to buy books. You can also order the audio book from Libro.fm or Audible.CREDITSThe Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith. Follow Virginia on Instagram or Twitter. Burnt Toast transcripts and essays are edited and formatted by Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, an Instagram account where you can buy and sell plus size clothing. The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe. Our theme music is by Jeff Bailey and Chris Maxwell. Tommy Harron is our audio engineer. Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!Episode 99KyleI’ve long had this experience of being in clinical spaces with women with eating disorders and just wondering, like: Where are all the guys? What’s going on here? This is not what I hear when I talk to other males about their bodies or how they feel about themselves or their eating practices. It didn’t really align with what I was hearing with my friend groups or people I would speak to. That led me towards the path of researching eating disorders among the male population.VirginiaSo we met when I interviewed you for Chapter Nine of Fat Talk about your research on dads and their role in eating disorder treatment. I have to say: That chapter really did require me to put aside a lot of my own biases and preconceived notions and to realize I had been assuming that eating disorders were an exclusively female or gender-nonconforming experience. Which is very incorrect.Let’s talk about that a little bit. Why do you think we are so quick to assume that these are issues that men and boys just don’t struggle with?KyleIt’s such a great question and you’re certainly not alone with those preconceived notions of how we think about eating disorders. I think if people who are listening also have that thought or are surprised by that, I think that’s totally okay and totally normal.I think there’s a couple of different factors here. One of them is certainly just media and how we’ve described people with eating disorders in popular culture has often been mostly women, mostly affluent females, white females, young females, adolescents, young adults. So that’s number one. And secondly, I think another piece of it is research and clinical spaces, which obviously do reflect a bit of the culture but also reflect what we see in the culture.Consider the diagnostic criteria for anorexia: Up until very recently, the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual actually required amenorrhea, which is loss of periods, in order to be diagnosed with anorexia. So, a male prior to 2013 actually could not be diagnosed with anorexia because they technically don’t lose their period. So, that’s a huge piece of the puzzle that we often overlook and don’t think about.Males are just less likely to complain about their bodies, talk about their bodies, get support around body image and food, just because the spaces where we treat people are not so much focused on the male experience. And again, that’s changed a bit more recently. But it’s still a hard process to get males in the door. And last is socialization. It goes back to culture of course, too, but females are often more socialized to talk about feelings and food and body. Whereas males—and I think we could talk about gender as being a lot more diverse than that—but males are a lot more focused on the performance of their bodies. When you watch a sporting event, you always see statistics about males bodies, like how big they are, how strong they are, how fast they can run. Whereas females are much more criticized based on their physical appearance as far as aesthetic purposes. I think that kind of differentiation also allows males to fall into this different bucket where they may not be perceived as having a problem because that male is just exercising to become faster in their sport or stronger in their sport or to be able to lift this amount of weight or have the six pack abs. I think that’s a little bit different than the female experienceVirginiaThat feels like a really important reframe. So, you’re saying women and girls are subjected to these aesthetic standards about bodies. Men have maybe less of the aesthetic focus and more of the output, the what can your body do? What can you lift, all of that? But that is allowing us to ignore that that can also be a driver of disorders.KyleTotally, absolutely. I think that’s a big part of it. And not to say that males don’t experience aesthetic pressures! I think you’ve probably seen more of that recently, especially since the advent of social media. And obviously, males have been sexualized in popular culture, as well, of course.But I do think that generally it’s a lot more based on how male bodies can perform. That does drive some of the behaviors that they engage in, like excessive exercising or use of performance enhancers, which, again, obviously has an aesthetic approach to it. There are aesthetic purposes and aesthetic repercussions, I’d say, but there is also a lot of driving for performative aspects of their bodies.VirginiaI’m just thinking how often we normalize men’s relationship with exercise because we’re like, “Oh, they just really care about their running time.” That allows us to ignore the fact that there might be something disordered about caring that much about your running time or your triathlon performance or whatever it is. We’ll be like, “Oh, but it’s not about body image so it’s not the same thing.” KyleSame thing with eating behaviors. I think we often overlook binge eating among males. I’ve heard this a lot in my prior clinical practice or even just in social and family relationship conversations. Like, “oh, he can sit down and eat a whole pint of ice cream and it’s no big deal.” That actually might be a bingeing behavior for that young male but because we socialize it as like, “He’s a male. He’s got a fast metabolism because he’s growing. He’s a teenager,” it becomes very okay for that behavior to happen and we just overlook it. Whereas, again, not to generalize, but if a female was doing the same behavior, there is probably a lot more emotion attached to that. That would be perceived as problematic, right? Like, “you can’t do that. You can’t eat that much. That’s not okay.” And I’m using quotation marks here—it’s not what I actually believe. But that would be framed in a very different way.I think that opens doors for males to engage in behaviors without much support and it does lead to this idea of males not even knowing they have a problem. They might engage in that behavior every night or a couple of times a week. In some of the qualitative interviews that we’ve seen, they don’t even know they have a problem. They’re like, “I just thought this is what I did.” And that’s a big problem. VirginiaNo one ever investigates the underlying stuff. What is the restriction that led to eating the pint of ice cream? No one is peeling back those layers for them in the same way.Your research has looked at some of the the behaviors that boys tend to engage in and so many of these things are just the vernacular of modern diet culture concepts, like cheat meals, bulking and cutting, intermittent fasting. What have you learned about how boys engage in this stuff? I’m also curious how we start to differentiate between what’s the culture and what’s the disorder—when maybe it’s a little bit all one and the same.KyleThe last part of that question is the never ending conundrum of what we’re trying to figure out. These behaviors that I’ve focused on have been very common in the popular culture for a while now, like cheat meals, bulking, cutting, intermittent fasting. For those of those listeners who don’t know, I’ll explain each of those as I go through them. Cheat meals are essentially a deviation from a typical dietary practice, generally more restrictive in some senses, where you might not allow yourself to eat like an entire pizza in one sitting or two or three Big Macs in one sitting. That is what the cheat meal is, it allows you a single meal, where you can “cheat” based on your restrictive diet.Now, in the muscle building community, cheat meals have actually become a catalyst for muscular growth and caloric overconsumption, again, to boost one’s ability to build muscle. I think that even goes for popular culture figures, like The Rock has often posted on Instagram his cheat meals, like what he eats. Social media has obviously been a huge driver of cheat meals. You can search #cheatmeals and see people’s images of what they’re eating.VirginiaGuys, don’t search it. It’s not worth it. But yes, it’s all over TikTok.KyleWe actually asked people their engagement, like what did they do? How much did they eat? Things of that nature. And what we found was actually 60 percent of boys and young men, aged 16 to 30 said they engaged in at least one cheat meal in the past year. That was pretty high across the sample. It was 54 percent or so for girls and young women and about 50 percent for transgender and gender expansive people. So it’s pretty common for people to engage in at least one cheat meal.And generally the foods that people are engaging in were sweet foods, calorically dense foods. We found that the people who engage in cheat meals were much more likely to experience eating disorder attitude and behaviors, in particular binge eating. So you can likely imagine that experience of a cheat meal is a binge eating episode where they might feel a loss of control. They might experience guilt as as consequence of engaging in the behavior. And then, of course, there’s oftentimes compensatory behaviors attached to that, as well. Participants reported engaging in compensatory behaviors, like purging. So it’s definitely wrapped up in that experience of eating disorder pathology. VirginiaIt’s so interesting because the concept of the cheat meal or the the rhetoric around it is very much like you’re giving yourself permission to enjoy these foods that you have restricted the rest of the week. Now you get to have them with no consequences. And it just goes to show how much the bias is all baked in. You can’t actually escape the consequences. Because if you weren’t restricting the whole week beforehand, you wouldn’t need the cheat meal, right? You wouldn’t need to frame it as this day of sin or whatever.KyleIt goes into a lot of things you’ve written about and talked about. Like, just allowing yourself to eat the foods that you want to eat alleviates you from this idea of having to engage in a “cheat meal” in order to eat the pizza. Allow yourself to eat the food that you want to eat, right? And hopefully avoid some of these problems that might be associated with it.VirginiaLet’s talk about bulking and cutting. Those are terms I hear and barely know what they are. KyleBulking and cutting are also very common in the muscle building community. Generally, it’s a similar sort of dietary practice where you oscillate between a bulking phase, which is generally a period of time where you consume more calories than you need and it’s coupled with muscle building exercise. So generally, people are weight training in this time and the point of it is to bulk up, to increase your muscle mass. And then that switches to what would be called the cutting phase, which is basically the opposite. It’s a caloric restriction and that then allows you to reduce the body fat you might have gained during the bulking phase without losing too much of the muscle mass that you’ve gained. VirginiaIt just sounds like so much to keep track of and manipulate and to constantly be objectifying your body in that way. I’m just feeling sad for people.KyleIt does include a lot obsessiveness around food and only allowing yourself to eat at particular places, kind of interfering with social activities, things of that nature. There are lots of problems attached to it for sure. We found that 50 percent of boys and young men reported engaging in at least one bulk and cut cycle in the past 12 months. So again, a pretty high percentage of them are manipulating their body in some capacity through bulking and cutting phases. And again, not surprisingly, we looked at different associated factors with bulking and cutting, and not surprisingly, eating disorder psychopathology, attitudes, and behaviors were associated with it. VirginiaLet’s quickly talk about muscle dysmorphia, because that might be a newer term for my audience. Can you define that and talk to us specifically about how it shows up for boys?KyleMuscle dysmorphia has previously been known as reverse anorexia, which might be the most easy way to understand it, even though it’s maybe not the best characterization. It’s the pathological pursuit of muscularity. The “reverse anorexia” part comes in because people with anorexia usually see themselves as larger than they actually are whereas people with muscle dysmorphia actually see themselves as smaller than they actually are. So, someone with muscle dysmorphia is actually usually quite large, quite strong, quite lean, quite cut, but they see themselves as being too small. It’s actually a specifier of body dysmorphic disorder. So it’s not really an eating disorder, per se, though it has a lot of eating disorder qualities to it, of course. The body image component, and a lot of dietary practices and pathological behaviors aimed at increasing musculature and strength.VirginiaWhat do we understand about treatment for it?KyleThat’s a great question. There is just a very, very, very small amount of literature on clinical samples of muscle dysmorphia. It’s actually a huge problem in the research community and the clinical community that we just don’t actually know what the best way to treat people with muscle dysmorphia is because we just don’t have a lot of clinical data on them. Most of the studies on muscle dysmorphia are gym goers or bodybuilders—again, not surprising those people would be at be at most risk for muscle dysmorphia.The study that I did, we did look at muscle dysmorphia. It’s one of the first real studies to look at an epidemiology sample like a community sample of young people and ask how does muscle dysmorphia present among that group. Again, not clinical muscle dysmorphia, but the symptomology, which would be like that drive for muscularity, appearance intolerance as it relates to one’s muscles, and then also functional impairment. So, how does their behaviors, their body image in relation to their muscle building, interfere with their ability to go to work and socialize and things of that nature? Even our data, it’s actually still lacking because it doesn’t really get at what actually works as far as treating this population.VirginiaAnd I’m sure to there are probably some comorbidities with anorexia or with other eating disorders, right? You’re trying to suss out what you’re treating and in some ways all these different labels can be problematic in the pursuit of actually helping people and seeing them for where they are.KyleRight. And you can imagine, male just aren’t socialized to talk about their bodies, to seek mental health treatment, period. And then think about a male in a bodybuilding gym who’s totally ripped and people are coming up to him and being like, “Hey, man, what’s your secret? You’re doing all the right things.” Like maybe they’re competing in bodybuilding and they’re winning or having that feedback loop that just keeps telling them they’re doing the right thing. It is going to be very hard to convince that person to go to treatment to get help for it, right?VirginiaWe love to reinforce people’s eating disorders, that seems universal across gender as something that just shows up. But that does make it so difficult. And I’m sure, too, there are ways in which it feels safer to exist in the world in that body. This starts to tie into issues of privilege, access. All of that probably comes into play as well. KyleMasculinity is hugely intertwined with muscularity. You can imagine that a male who wants to portray a certain level of masculinity and certain level of strength, a sort of dominance over other males and over females, would likely want to strive for that bigger, stronger body. There has been some research that has shown that people with muscle dysmorphia or even symptoms of muscle dysmorphia have had experiences of violence and victimization themselves or childhood adverse experiences. So, lots of trauma can be wrapped up in that, not to mention poly substance use and suicidality and all that kind of stuff. It’s definitely clinically a really complex issue that has multiple layers to it.VirginiaWhen we’re talking about men here, is your research looking mostly at straight men? At a mix of straight and gay? How does that all come into play? KyleThe study that I led, which is called the Canadian Study of Adolescent Health Behaviors, was about 2700 young people across all 13 provinces and territories in Canada. It’s also very demographically diverse. We actually have a lot of marginalized, racialized participants. There’s a large sample in the study of sexual and gender minorities. So we look at transgender and gender expansive people as well as gay, lesbian, queer, questioning, and other young people. Generally, when I’m speaking about boys and men, I’m speaking about cisgender boys and men. When I’m talking about girls and women, I’m generally speaking about cisgender girls and women. Referencing transgender or gender expansive people, that includes people who identify as not cisgender in some capacity and definitely includes a large sample of sexual minority young people as well.VirginiaSo do we see eating disorders among gay and queer boys and men playing out differently than straight boys and men?KyleYeah, certainly. Males who want to be more attractive to other males are certainly trying to achieve a body that’s going to do that. And similarly, for males who are attracted to females and want females to be attracted to them, they’re going to engage in certain behaviors. Same thing with the trans group, as well. People are going to engage in behaviors to align their body to be right. So, for example, a trans man might engage in a lot more body building and muscle building activities, where a trans female might engage in more thinness-oriented behaviors in order to potentially suppress sex characteristics and also to achieve that thin ideal which is more common among the female population.VirginiaAnd then, too, there is the question of if someone is trying to feel safe in their body, then we need gender affirming care for that person. We don’t want the disordered behaviors, of course, but it’s understandable to be trying to transition your body into the body that feels right for you.KyleIt’s multi-layered, right? That’s where the policy pieces and healthcare systems become really important. People are engaging in eating disorder behaviors for a reason. They’re not just doing it for fun. VirginiaGreat point. KyleThey’re engaging in it for mental health reasons, of course, especially for those marginalized groups as they’ve experienced minority stressors and discrimination, marginalization. They’re actually trying to manipulate their body in a way to make it feel and align more with the gender they are. If we can actually provide appropriate, evidence-based treatments in the healthcare system, that would probably do a lot of good.VirginiaI had Jessica Wilson on the podcast a few weeks ago. She’s a Black dietitian and body liberation activist and has a book about black women’s relationships with eating disorders. She challenges the idea that we even would label the behaviors as a disorder when someone is just trying to find safety in a marginalized body. I think about that all the time now.KyleIf we think about all disorders, they’re all ways of coping, a lot of times are about emotion regulation, about trauma. If people don’t have the resources to deal with their trauma or deal with their emotions, for various reasons—it could be internal resources, external resources, or just the social community they live in—they’re going to find ways to survive, right? It’s about survival.VirginiaAnd when we make it all about body image, we ignore all of those other factors that are at play. It feels like in the conversation around men and boys, we’re really just starting to scratch the surface on on all of those factors. KylePeople are multi-dimensional, right? There are gay men, there are straight men, there are Black men, there are white men. There are all of these different intersections and identities. We often talk about these things in generalizations when in reality, there are lots of layers and teasing out of details that we can’t even get at with data because it’s so granular and unique among certain populations. Oftentimes the boys and men who are furthest from that ideal, like the marginalized groups, the groups that perceive themselves to be less masculine based on hegemonic masculinity, those are the males that are most impacted.Like, it’s generally not the males who are aligning with the masculine and muscular ideal. It’s the males who aren’t, right? It’s maybe males who are in larger bodies or the males who are maybe more emotional than other males. Generally, those males are actually having a lot more distress as it relates to their body or how they present to engage in the world.VirginiaGhat feels really important to name. Now, of course, I’m thinking about all the parents and caregivers listening who are thinking about their sons and are freaking out, understandably. What should parents be looking for? How do you recommend parents start to engage with their sons on this topic?KyleSomething that I recommend for parents is this idea of respectful curiosity. It can be really quick to judge behaviors, it can be very quick to jump to conclusions about what certain behaviors mean or don’t mean. I think it’s this idea of respectful curiosity. It’s about asking questions, it’s about being present. Especially when we talk about boys and young men, they’re not really going to sit down across the table from you and tell that you how they feel about their body. That’s probably the last thing they’re going to do. I would say most of them probably aren’t going to do that.But what they might do is they might talk to you as you’re engaging in the activity with them or showing some curiosity about what they’re doing. I often say, join them. Like, join them in the process as much as you can. Maybe that means going to the gym with them. If that’s something you want to do or feel inclined to do. Noticing, like, “Oh, I’m seeing that you’re, using this whey protein supplement. Where did you learn about that? Tell me about it. I didn’t know that was a thing.” It’s not about accusing. It’s not about “Don’t do that.” It’s just about, like, “Hey, where did you learn about that? What does it do for you? How does it make you feel after you work out? Who told you about it? Where do you buy it?” Those types of things can be really, really important. Again, it’s not about accusing them. It’s just about gathering information and data. And then with that data, you can make decisions about what to do next.VirginiaI get the concept of joining them. On the other hand, some of these kids are going to be engaging with this stuff in dangerous ways. A common story that comes out in my reporting is the kid who says, “I wanted to lose weight. And my mother gave me a diet and we went on the diet together.”So how are we joining them without reinforcing what’s dangerous about it? How do we join them and then recognize when it’s something else?KyleThat’s a great point. I think when I’m saying “join them,” I’m coming from the stance of a parent who may not have any real insight or knowledge of their engagement in some of these behaviors. Like, they may just not really know. I think that’s where I’m talking about joining them.You can imagine, a lot of parents, like fathers for example, are coaches of sports teams or are helping the kid train because they see that their kid is a really good athlete and might be able to get a scholarship and that might make college a better possibility. There’s obviously lots of dreams about professional sports and all that stuff. So yeah, you can imagine that that would become a lot more complicated. In that stance, I think I don’t even know what the answer to that. It kind of just muddies the waters of being able to recognize what’s safe and not safe and what’s helpful and what’s not helpful. I think ultimately it is up to parents to hopefully be able to recognize some of the other symptoms that might be arising, which would be some of that like obsessiveness around one’s dietary practices or exercise routine. You might notice drops in educational performance or socializing becomes a lot less important or they’re not doing as much of it or they’ve lost some friends. Maybe they’re just generally seeming more depressed or low or their sleep has been kind of messed up or they are spending time on social media more. There are other ancillary symptoms that might be occurring which might be raising some flags around more serious mental health issues which I think parents should hopefully be thinking about as they potentially are joining them in more maladaptive or promoting some of the behaviors that they might be engaging in. Does that make sense? VirginiaIt does make sense. I think what’s useful to tease out here is: You might be aware your son seems disconnected socially, and depressed. But because of our social conditioning, you might not connect that to he’s going to the gym a lot, he started using protein powder, we’re making him smoothies. So what you’re saying is, pay attention to the whole picture and know that just because he is a boy he is not immune to all this stuff. This could be the underlying thing causing some other distress that you would need to look at.I also think, going even further back and thinking for parents of younger kids, how do you start building emotional vocabulary? Especially for boys when the world is going to steer them away from that. KyleLabeling and helping them. I mean, I have young kids. “I noticed when you’re doing this, you look really mad,” right? That is very important to do. I was talking about the performance aspect before. You know, a lot of males, again, not all males, but a lot of males are interested in sports. And as I said, you can’t watch a sporting event without hearing about someone’s speed or someone’s height and weight and all that stuff . Even just asking, “I noticed we’re watching this football game and they just keep talking about these guys bodies. What are you thinking when you hear that?” Those types of questions. Or, “When I hear that, I’m like why are they focusing so much on this guy’s body? Can’t they just watch what he does on the field?”You might get a response like, “What are you talking about? Who cares?” But that is also information, right? Or they might be like, “No, that’s actually really important because he’s got this much speed and blah, blah,” and that just gives you more data, more information for you to understand.VirginiaYes, I am extremely sports illiterate, but I come from a football family and they do put the football players’ weights up on the TV screen. I am just realizing that now and wondering why on Earth?Okay, just putting some puzzle pieces together about my own family.I think it’s good to name that often when we present our kids with these opening moments, they don’t necessarily open right up and dive in deep with us. But you’re just continuing to make yourself available and show that you’re paying attention.KyleFor parents, recognizing that they are susceptible to promoting these behaviors just like culture promotes them as this is what a boy should do without really second guessing. Is that the right thing to be doing? Is that what I shouldn’t be doing? Is my son okay with this behavior? Are they happy here? Those types of questions, I think, are really important to reflect on.VirginiaAnd it seems like there’s an opportunity to be learning this alongside your kid. Maybe as you’re trying to, yes, go to the gym with them, understand that world, understand who they’re following on TikTok, you can also be sharing what you’re learning about diet culture and anti-fat bias so that it’s a more robust discussion. It’s not just “Teach me your workout routine.” It’s also, “Let’s talk about why workout routines can be problematic.” There can be a way of engaging on multiple levels.And it may, for a lot of parents, involve saying, “I’m trying to unlearn some stuff here. I think I’ve pushed you to be excellent at the sport or to fulfill my lacrosse dreams and that was not the right call. So let’s try a different way.”KyleThat unlearning piece is, I think, really important. Just as much as we probably talked about that for female caregivers or mothers as it relates to dieting and things of that nature, I think fathers and male caregivers need to do a very similar look in the mirror and reflect on what are the behaviors that I’m engaging in? How do I engage in exercise or eating that aligns with the sociocultural norms around muscularity and body ideals around men? How does that infiltrate and influence my young male, my son, or whoever it might be? VirginiaYes, we are waiting for dads to do this work, Kyle. We are waiting for them. I can tell you about 90 percent of the listening audience here is not a dad. But we’re welcoming them with open arms and we’re hoping that there will be more dads doing the work. KyleDads, fathers, male caregivers, they definitely need to do the work to be reflective on how they perpetuate these norms and how it ultimately hurts their sons.VirginiaAnd daughters, too. It is harder because, as you and I’ve talked about so much, they don’t have scripts. This isn’t normative, but hopefully we are starting to shift in that direction and your research is a huge piece of that. So, thank you so much. This is so helpful. KyleOf course. ButterKyleCan I share a few things?VirginiaI love when people have a few things.KyleSo, a couple books that I read recently that have been so good that it’s been hard to read new books are Cloud Cuckoo Land which is just like a phenomenal book. I would highly recommend it to any and all people. And then Gabrielle Zevin’s Tomorrow, and Tomorrow, and Tomorrow which also was just phenomenal. I’m not even a video game person, but I love video games now.VirginiaI know. I have a lot of video game people in my life and I’ve always been mystified and now I’m like, okay, I kind of get it. The section at the end, the chapter in the form of a video game? Mind blowing. KyleYeah, that book is just great.Then, I can’t help it, I am a sports person. I’ll admit that. I’m a big hockey fan. So the NHL Stanley Cup playoffs is definitely brought me a lot of butter these days. Then lastly, hiking with my kids. I have a three-and-a-half year old, so he thrives on being on the trails. And I have a 15 month old who likes to be in the backpack.VirginiaLet me tell you, hike with the backpack, enjoy the backpack hiking, because it gets really hard. Mine are both out of the backpack stage and it’s like now I have to persuade you both to walk.KyleWalk in the same direction. VirginiaAnd not need 50 million breaks and we’ll never get anywhere. There’s a dark period of hiking with kids. It’s when they’re both between the ages of like three and seven and then it starts to get much better. Your mileage may vary. Of course, if you’re hiking with a three year old, you’re doing better than me. KyleYeah, he loves it, so that’s good. But I imagine that when the other one is out of the backpack and has an opinion about which direction we go.VirginiaSomeone always wants to sit down. Someone is always tired. I’m always informed about very tired legs. And we’ve walked 10 feet. We’re in the parking lot still. Well, my Butter is kind of on theme with what we were talking about in terms of like joining your kids where they are and making space for conversations. I have two girls and so much of our time is us together. I’ve suddenly become aware of needing more one-on-one time with each of them. Particularly with my younger one because she goes to bed earlier. My older daughter and I tend to get a chunk of time together in the evenings—we are watching Gilmore Girls together right now. But my younger one, I realized, wasn’t getting one-on-one time. Last weekend, I took her out and asked her what she wanted to do and she wanted to get cookies. So we went to our local coffee shop and got big chocolate chip cookies and just sat and chatted. And it was great. She told me all sorts of random facts about friends at school, drama, and just little things about her day that hadn’t come out and that she needed to let out. Then we went to the bookstore and got books, too. So we’re calling it our Cookie and Book Date. I recommend a cookie and book date or whatever your child’s favorite things are to give that connection opportunity, especially if you have multiple kids and you feel like, “have I actually looked directly at you in a while?”KyleDefinitely. It’s true. They go in cycles of who needs more attention?VirginiaYou just suddenly realize, “Oh, one child has needed a lot and the other child also needs..”KyleThat’s great. I like that a lot.VirginiaAnd it was fun because I also love cookies and books, to be clear. It was great for me, too. It wasn’t just a kid thing that I would be pretending to enjoy. That’s a parenting achievement unlocked, when you like to do the same thing.KyleYour next book is called “Cookie and Book Date.” VirginiaThe children’s book that my kids are so disappointed I don’t write. KyleThere you go! VirginiaAwesome. Kyle, thank you so much for being here. This was fantastic. Tell us where we can follow you how we can support your work.KyleI’m on Twitter and Instagram, so you certainly can follow me along there. I try to put easy ways to understand some of the research that I’ve been doing as infographics and visuals on those spaces. I’m really excited to continue to work on some of this data that I’ve collected over the last few years.We have all this new data about how they engage in the health care system and so we’re really going to look at teasing out a bit about how we can understand how the behaviors are related to health and healthcare utilization. I often tell people, “Oh, if you’re concerned about your son, go to your health care provider and talk to them.” But I often say that and then also remember their health care provider might not have ever heard of a cheat meal before. So, I’m really dedicated to translating some of this stuff to the healthcare space so that people can actually go to their health care provider and be like my son is engaging in cheat meals and the healthcare provider can be like, okay I know what that is. 

Today Virginia is chatting with Jo Piazza, best selling author, journalist, and podcast creator. You might know her from her awesome podcast Under the Influence, or her very excellent Substack Over the Influence. And her new book, co-authored with Christine Pride entitled You Were Always Mine, just came out this month.Remember, if you order Jo's book (or any books we mention on the pod!) from the Burnt Toast Bookshop, you can get 10 percent off that purchase if you also order (or have already ordered!) Fat Talk! (Just use the code FATTALK at checkout.)If you want more conversations like this one, please rate and review us in your podcast player! And become a paid Burnt Toast subscriber to get all of Virginia's reporting and bonus subscriber-only episodes.Disclaimer: Virginia is a journalist and human with a lot of informed opinions. Virginia is not a nutritionist, therapist, doctor, or any kind of health care provider. The conversation you're about to hear and all of the advice and opinions she gives are just for entertainment, information, and education purposes only. None of this is a substitute for individual medical or mental health advice.BUTTER & OTHER LINKS@jopiazzaauthorJo's other books:We Are Not Like ThemFitness JunkieOther book recs:Jasmine Guillory’s booksRosaline Palmer Takes the CakeBig Girl by Mecca Jamilah SullivanGet a Life, Chloe Brown by Talia HibbertOur Little Kitchen by Jillian TamakiStarfish by Lisa FippsBodies Are Cool and Dancing at the Pity Party by Tyler FederMisc & Butterwhat do I do with my best friend who’s dieting and I’m sick of hearing about it?Navigating Chick-fil-A“Those who don’t cook don’t get to complain.” the video for Waterloo Weed Family OrchardsThe Whispers by Ashley Audrainice cream bowls from East Forkstyle section cover story about East ForkThe Mugsthe bitty bowls FAT TALK is out! Order your signed copy from Virginia's favorite independent bookstore, Split Rock Books (they ship anywhere in the US!). Or order it from your independent bookstore, or from Barnes & Noble, Amazon, Target, or Kobo or anywhere else you like to buy books. You can also order the audio book from Libro.fm or Audible.CREDITSThe Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith. Follow Virginia on Instagram or Twitter. Burnt Toast transcripts and essays are edited and formatted by Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, an Instagram account where you can buy and sell plus size clothing. The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe. Our theme music is by Jeff Bailey and Chris Maxwell. Tommy Harron is our audio engineer. Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!Episode 98JoI keep telling everyone, I’m warning them in my interviews, that I didn’t realize until right now that all of our books—the titles use a lot of pronouns.The first one is We Are Not Like Them and this one is You Were Always Mine. The one that we’re writing right now is I Never Knew You At All. So I’m really fucking it up in these interviews because I’m like, You Were Never Ours. What?This one is You Were Always Mine.VirginiaYou Were Always Mine, a book about pronouns?Well, I think it’s just a wonderful, wonderful book. I could not put it down. I’ve been doing a lot of heavy nonfiction reading and it was just so what I needed after burnout on other kinds of reading. I just spent the last four days with you both and it was delightful.JoThank you, I really appreciate it. That’s what we wanted. There’s a lot of heavy shit in the world right now and this book brings up things to think about, but we also wanted to give people a soft place to land for a little while. VirginiaI’m a little bit of a fragile flower and I can’t do trauma porn at all, but I like books with substance and that deal with issues. I want there to be a name for this type of book because this is what I’m always looking for! Where it’s about real issues and real people and complicated stuff, but I’m not traumatized reading it. I’m crying in like a cathartic positive way. JoYes, and not in an I-want-to-lock-myself-in-the-dark-and-not-come-out way. VirginiaNot in an I’m-now-going-to-have-intrusive-thoughts way.JoWhich is a different cry.VirginiaIt just is. So, the book is out. We’re very excited about it. Everyone needs to go get it. But what we’re actually going to talk about today is the importance of seeing women enjoy food in fiction.JoI think about it so much. I’m starting to dive into fiction with my daughter, right? She’s three and a half but this is where you start to read chapter books to them. This is where you start to parse out what kinds of things do I want in my daughter’s head? What kinds of things have been in my head for the past 30 years?And I was a big fan of the standard 90’s chick lit. Bridget Jones, Emily Giffin’s books, all the Jane Greens, loved them. And I feel like for so long in commercial women’s fiction, when they talked about food at all, if they talked about food at all, it was in a very restrictive way. Bridget Jones is the worst offender and it’s one of my favorite books.VirginiaThe calorie count of a banana, I will never not know that. I didn’t know it before I read the book.JoRight? And now you will always know it. We tried to satirize that in my novel Fitness Junkie, to just send up how ridiculous this world can be. It’s a shift to simply normalizing women loving food as much as we love food and as much as I adore french fries and potato chips and steaks. I don’t want to think in terms of diets and calories and seeing that on the page. In You Were Always Mine it was it was important to us that Cinnamon just love eating, without hitting the reader over the head being like “she loves it.”VirginiaIt’s not an annoying trope.JoIt’s just like, you’ve got some like shrimp sizzling in butter on the stove and eat it and then have sex. Amazing! All of the pleasures for you. You deserve all of that. That was really important to both Christine and I.My next book is set in Sicily and my main character for that is a butcher. She owns a steak restaurant. I’ve been writing food porn for the past year and now all I want to do is read more books where women are enjoying eating. VirginiaI mean, it would be a crime to set a book in Sicily and not have food porn.In You Were Always Mine the food stuff is not the main focus of the book at all. It’s this nice detail of her character that you get to see her enjoying food. I don’t think it gives away too much to say she had a hard childhood, food scarcity is something she’d experienced. So there’s some nuance to her food story, too. It’s not just loving it for the sake of loving it. You really invest in her loving.JoYou have this and you can really enjoy it. Christine and I, we’re two women who love food and love eating. We’ve celebrated every one of our book milestones at a delicious, amazing restaurant. It’s funny because when we found out that our last book was a Good Morning America book club pick—they tell you six months in advance and then they’re like, and by the way, it’s a secret.VirginiaOh, I wouldn’t do well with that. JoWell, we didn’t. We totally failed. We immediately left Christine’s apartment in Harlem and went out to one of our favorite pizza places, ate all the pizza and drink all the tequila and told Tiffany, the bartender, that we were a Good Morning America book club pick.VirginiaI feel like Tiffany could keep a lid on it, though.JoI don’t think she told anyone. VirginiaShe was probably like, “that’s great.”JoShe’s like, “I don’t even know what you mean. But here’s some more parmesan fries.”We get our best writing done while we’re eating meals together. I think that that is because our books do have to deal with hard conversations sometimes. We talk about race and we talk about friendship and class and those things. I think the best conversations happen over meals, when you sit down and you share food and you can just be open and free and give each other grace. And so most of our books have been written over meals and meals that then end up in our books. VirginiaSo you’re literally sitting there with your laptops and your food.JoLaptops open and french fries and burgers. This is why we keep writing books together, because it’s really fun. VirginiaIt’s delicious. That’s a great writing process. There’s often writing that I need to do with a snack—I’m big on the chocolate chips at the desk, that’s a real power through when I’m trying to get many thousands of words done quickly kind of thing. But now I’m like, oh, I have been not putting enough thought into this. JoI also write a lot, when I’m writing solo, in restaurants. I’m in Philly and Philadelphia is just such a good restaurant city. But After COVID when I was locked up for so long, there’s so many restaurants that I missed. So I take myself out to lunch a couple of times a week, and I’ll try a new restaurant from the best of Philly list and just take my laptop. That’s an hour and a half where I’m enjoying a new meal and I’m writing and it’s so much nicer than just sitting at a desk. It’s awesome. VirginiaWell, that’s incredible. That’s leveling up the coffee shop writing experience, which I was never very good at. I get distracted and the chairs aren’t comfortable. And the stress of holding your table. But in a restaurant, you can get up and go to the bathroom and not worry that people are going to steal your stuff without having to negotiate with someone. JoExactly. My entire literary life and the past two years has been very infused with delicious food. VirginiaAnother irritating trope that comes up in fiction with women and food where they are eating to delight a man. Gilmore Girls is an example I’m thinking of, which is not a novel. But the way that Gilmore Girls eat and men marveling at it, which is really irritating to me. And like marveling that “you’re thin and you can eat this way,” and all of that. There was like a little of that where like her husband comments on her eating, but doesn’t really understand it because it’s got this whole backstory. So I loved how you played with that trope there. I thought that was really smart.The other thing that I loved was the way she eats with her best friend. There’s a great scene of her and Lucia sharing the popcorn watching a movie. Food as this tool of bonding between women is really cool. JoOne of my favorite things is the picture of Lucia on Cinnamon’s phone is a picture of her eating peanut butter out of a jar at 3 in the morning. VirginiaSuch a good detail.JoThey bonded because they both eat peanut butter out of a jar at 3 in the morning. So that’s the picture on each other’s phones. And I’m like, yes, that is me. That was my friend and I, we bond over those little, tiny things. VirginiaThere’s a lot of stereotypes about women being very diet-y together and going to the restaurant and only ordering salads and “are you going to get dessert? I don’t know if I’m going to get dessert.” And all of that. And what a delight not to have that. JoWhich I had in some of my past books, too. I know that I did, like looking back at them. And I don’t know if it was a case of just imitating what I had seen, imitating what I see thrown at us in culture generally or what I thought that I should be writing. I just don’t think I was nearly aware enough of it until I had my daughters. And it’s one of those things like, Oh, I’m nearsighted and I put on glasses and now I see something. Now I do see it and I’m glad that I can see it. I think so many things about how we write about women need to change generally. But that is one of the things that I don’t think gets talked about enough. VirginiaIt’s a fine line, too, because a lot of times women’s friendships have this diet component. This is a common question I get asked, like, what do I do with my best friend who’s dieting and I’m sick of hearing about it? So it makes sense to incorporate some of that. I was also interested in the character of Daisy, who is the other protagonist of the book, and who’s in a bigger body. There’s some discussion of her weight loss attempts. For listeners: I want to be clear that it’s not pro “Daisy needs to lose weight,” there’s no weight loss narrative arc, but there are references to that being part of her past.I was curious if you want to talk a little bit about how you thought about Daisy in all of this. JoDaisy in our book, she is in a bit of a bigger body. Daisy has a pregnancy that no one around her notices, so really one of the only ways to get around that was to have her start out in a bigger body, and as a person who usually wears bigger clothes. But Christine and I wanted to be as sensitive as possible when we were writing Daisy. Because I struggle with my weight. Like, I can go up and down four or five sizes over the course of a year. Struggle is the wrong word, but I fluctuate. So we didn’t want Daisy to be a caricature. I never wanted anyone to look at any pictures of Christine or me and be like, how dare they write Daisy? And we never want Daisy to be fixated on diet culture.We want to Daisy to feel strong. Daisy wants to be a pilot. She’s been told for so long that’s something that’s ridiculous. Like, how will you sit in the front of a plane? And we wanted to break down that stereotype, too. But then Cinnamon and Daisy bond over eating french fries. And Cinnamon is like, “Oh, I saw her working out? What should I do? Like should I not offer her French fries? Screw it, I’m buying her French fries. She loves french fries. We’re gonna eat our french fries together.”VirginiaI thought it was very thoughtfully done. I admit, I had a moment of like, is this two straight-size authors writing about a fat person? There was that travesty of The Whale. And I want to be real clear, this is not in that category at all. She’s a very nuanced character and her weight is not the barrier to what she wants in her life. She’s not sad, not pathetic. She’s super complicated. JoHer life is hard, but it has nothing to do with her weight. That’s the thing. And I’m happy for Daisy at the end of the book. I am happy with where she ends up. VirginiaAgreed. JoThat’s another conversation I think that authors need to be having more of, like how are we sensitive as we write characters and what characters should we be more sensitive as we’re writing? I don’t think that there’s enough talk about when we’re writing about size and bodies, especially when it comes to women.VirginiaI think there’s a few folks doing it well. I think Jasmine Guillory’s books have done a lot to center protagonists and great food scenes. But who else do you think is doing it well?JoI was going to say Jasmine. Because still not nearly enough authors, I could not tell you that I read something recently where I was like, “oh, yeah, they nailed it.”I’m constantly looking for more and I don’t see enough. Who else are you seeing? VirginiaRosaline Palmer Takes the Cake was one that was a great food book. The protagonist is straight size—they don’t really talk about her body at all—but it’s sort of styled on The Great British Bake Off.JoI haven’t even heard of this.VirginiaCorinne Fay, who works on the newsletter with me, told me to read it. And she was right.There are great food scenes because they’re making these elaborate cakes all the time.A book I really loved for body stuff was Big Girl by Mecca Jamilah Sullivan, which is about a teenager growing up in Harlem, a Black girl who is fat. I mean, it’s a tough read, because her mom is very directly and abusively putting weight loss on her a lot of the time. But it’s ultimately incredibly empowering. And there are a lot of really interesting discussions of what her size means for her moving through the neighborhood, how she’s perceived by other Black people, how she’s perceived by white people. It’s just one of those books you can’t stop thinking about.JoI think Jen Weiner’s evolution in writing about size. Because she always has—I’ve been a fan of Jen forever, since her first books. She lives not far from me, so I actually get to see her in person and talk to her and have her be a person who lives in my world, which is wonderful.But In the beginning, she had characters of all sizes, but there was still the focus on dieting and being so uncomfortable with their bodies. And now, in her more recent books all sizes are so much more normalized. It’s not an issue. But that’s definitely an evolution and it’s one that you notice if you read through her whole amazing canon of books. VirginiaYeah and food is always pretty great in a Jen Weiner novel. Jo Food has always been great in a Jen Weiner novel.I interviewed her probably 20 years ago, when I was a baby at the New York Daily News back when newspapers still had books sections. I remember Jen saying that she wanted to write more about women enjoying their food. And that always stuck with me. VirginiaAnother one I really love is Talia Hibbert. Have you read her novels? She’s a British writer with a trio of novels about the Brown sisters. Get a Life, Chloe Brown.JoYes, I have a copy of Get a Life, Chloe Brown in one of my many TBR piles.VirginiaIt’s so fun. You will read it in an afternoon. It’s like really good sex, really good food, and a fat, Black protagonist. My friend Heidi who owns our local independent bookstore in my town and my friend Mary—shout out to Heidi and Mary—we are starting a feminist romance book club.JoShut your mouth!VirginiaYeah, it’s pretty good. Mary and I are also in a Hot Tub Book Club with our friends, where we just sit in people’s hot tubs and talk about whatever book. That’s also great. Jo How many friends do you have with hot tubs? VirginiaOnly two of us. I think we realized there were two hot tubs in our social group and then quickly arranged a book club around can we sit in these hot tubs?JoWhere do you live again? And can I get to the hot tubs at some point?VirginiaYou are invited anytime! We’re in the Hudson Valley. JoOh shut your mouth, I’m in the Catskills half the time! I’m going to come down and get in the hot tub. We could do a whole podcast episode from the hot tub.I love these two book clubs for you. VirginiaMy book club life is very rich right now. But what I was going to say is so for feminist romance we are always like: What is the next Talia Hibbert? Because I feel like she is the queen of the genre. She and Jasmine Guillory, it’s a tie. We’ve tried some where we’re like, “this is gonna be it,” and then it’s another skinny blonde chick getting the guy. And okay, it was a fun read, but you didn’t advance us at all. And not enough food!JoNot enough food.So both Christine and I have solo projects that we’re working on right now.VirginiaHow are you writing so many books at once?JoI’m very fast. You know, I’m never going to be Hemingway, even though he’s overrated, but I’m very fast because I was a newspaper reporter for so long. As a tabloid newspaper reporter, if you didn’t deliver your copy at 5pm, a drunk Australian editor-in-chief was like throwing a coffee mug at your head, back in the early 2000s.So I mean, I’m broken. I’m just broken and trained to write fast.But, Christine’s new novel is going to be a feminist romance. You can’t read it for two years, but I’ve already read it. It’s loosely based on her own love story about how she reconnected with her first boyfriend from New York City who she dated 27 years ago. And they reconnected two years ago and now they’re madly in love and she’s in a super serious bicoastal romance. The book is about a love triangle and it’s loosely called To All The Men I’ve Loved Before. Her first two boyfriends from adulthood come back and then she has to choose. But it will be super feminist-y and food forward. VirginiaOkay, well, I’m booking it for my book club in two years. Christine, I love that personal journey for you. That sounds amazing. JoShe’s just she’s madly in love and so happy. VirginiaWhat do you hear from readers? Do people notice the food details in your work often? What do they tell you? JoYeah, they do. Especially with early readers, we got so much great feedback from readers saying, “oh my gosh, the shrimp scene,” where it’s like a prelude to sex with her husband. There’s not that many happy scenes with her husband, but this one is where he’s popping garlicky buttery shrimp in her mouth. And there’s so many delicious smells wafting around the house.We also have her daily routine is stopping and picking up her Chick-fil-A and her French fries and just how much she loves it. So many readers responded to that. They’re like, “that’s my lunch routine, too! I get my my basket of chicken and I sit and I read on a bench and like that is my perfect lunch.”So more readers than I expected are commenting on that to me and I think the comments come because people are—no pun intended—actually hungry for it.When I was writing the Sicily book, I kept thinking about Eat, Pray, Love, which has a lot to recommend it but also just fetishized the eating in a way that I didn’t love. VirginiaYeah. I agree.JoAnd I didn’t want to do that. I was very intentional about not fetishizing the eating, just making it a part of the story. VirginiaI don’t know Liz Gilbert and her eating habits, so this is not a comment her, but I think sometimes I can tell the difference between an author who’s including food because they love food, and an author who’s including food because maybe they don’t let themselves love food.JoThat is an important distinction. And I can also tell that right off the bat.For a long time, I thought that I had to be a certain size and that that mattered so much to me. It was after having having my babies and watching my body change and watching my body be so strong and do these things that I was like, size doesn’t matter to me anymore. I want to be happy and I want to be healthy and strong. But the happiness part is a really big thing to me. I got so much happier. I find so much joy in so many of your newsletters because I got so much happier when I stopped thinking about it all the time. When I stopped thinking about size and just enjoying my life in a way that I wish I could have when I was younger and in a way that I would like for my daughters. VirginiaIt’s hard to explain to someone who’s in it, how much brain space and energy it frees up to step out of it. There’s a lot of privilege we need to name and not everybody can step out of it that easily. I don’t want to simplify that. But really, once you are on the other side, or even just somewhere in the middle but closer to the other side, it’s kind of amazing to have that. JoMy daughter is the most beautifully adventurous eater. She’ll try anything and she loves almost anything. Except mozzarella sticks. She rejects beige food. She’s like, “mozzarella sticks are disgusting.”VirginiaWell, that’s wrong, but okay.JoI’m like, that’s not true, but she really revels in it. She loves that she loves food. This is just a message that I never got as a kid. I remember my mom doing sweating to the oldies video and always being on SlimFast or Jenny Craig or Nutrisystem—the fact that I can just rattle these companies off from my childhood brain.And my daughter is probably going to be fucked up for so many other reasons, but that’s not gonna be one of them. VirginiaLet’s talk about kids books a little bit, since you mentioned this was when you first started thinking about it. Are there any kids books you love for food or any kids books you’ve been horrified about the food? JoSo the book that really got me thinking about this was Blubber.VirginiaBlubber is rough. Man, it is rough. JoIt’s so rough. I was down in Key West at Judy Blume’s awesome bookstore and bought copies of all the books and had Judy sign a bunch of them for the kids. Tales of a Fourth Grade Nothing, As Long As We’re Together, Sally J. Friedman. I love Judy. She’s one of the reasons that I wanted to be a writer because I devoured all of Judy’s books as a kid.And then I paused at Blubber—it has a new cover now. Do you remember the cover when we were younger? It is burned in my brain. It’s the little girl standing in front of a chalkboard. VirginiaYes, yes. JoAnd girls are snickering at her. And, by the way, there’s nothing to even discuss when it comes to this little girl’s size. VirginiaThey didn’t make her fat, which is weird choice. They were like we we need to show the bullying but we can’t even show a fat child on the cover of this. JoWe can’t bring ourselves to show a fat child on the cover. She’s drawing a picture of a sperm whale and then in the new Blubber it’s just a whale’s tail with a heart that says Blubber really small, as if the Blubber part of it is shameful, which it is like the whole premise of the book is.VirginiaI reread it when my oldest daughter was like reading Tales of a Fourth Grade Nothing. And I was like, I’m going to read this one first before I pass it over to her. JoYou can’t pass it on. VirginiaI didn’t pass it on. Because the way they treat the fat character, she is a non-entity in the book. She has no agency, she is just a student that gets made fun of. The parents never correct the bullying. There’s no reclaiming of her body as a good body. It’s very much a product of its time. But also, unfortunately, what’s happening to fat kids today, as well. JoIt’s still happening. I was like, Is this a good book to start discussions about bullying? Like, as a conversation point? And I’m like, nope, not even that. I can’t save Blubber. So that one, I think is what a lot of like people our age think about when we think about these children’s books that failed us and also drilled these stereotypes into our heads that were already in our heads as we were watching our mothers go through the diet culture of the 80’s and the 90’s. VirginiaThe Berenstain Bears and Too Much Junk Food by Stan and Jan Berenstain is another one that I think lives really large in people’s heads. I had forgotten how bad it was. There was a meme on Instagram last week and I shared the meme about it and all these people were in my DMs like “this was the book that screwed me up so much!” But what was interesting about it was several people said to me, “I read this book as a kid because the drawings of the food were so appealing, I just focused on how good the food looked.” And I thought that was so interesting. Maybe there’s a way to subversively reclaim The Berenstain Bears, to celebrate the food part of it without the rest. But still, this is not one I would read to my kids today without being able to have a very nuanced conversation about it.JoI didn’t remember that until you just mentioned it. The food did look good. VirginiaThey were good illustrations of food. Berenstain Bears is such a weird series in general.Jo It’s problematic for a lot of for a lot of different reasons. VirginiaGender norms, Christianity. There’s just a lot packed in there but that one is really a dark spot. JoIn most of the picture books that I read for kids, I have noticed that there are a lot of fatter bodies on kids these days and bodies of all different sizes.VirginiaFor picture books, my favorites are Our Little Kitchen by Jillian Tamaki, which is a lovely, beautiful food celebration book about these neighbors in a community kitchen making a really amazing dinner together. There are queer folks, there are disabled folks, there are fat folks. There are kids. That’s a favorite. My favorite line that’s become canon in my family is there’s a line where someone’s like, “chili again?” and the guy at the stove is like, “Those who don’t cook don’t get to complain.” And my kids know that if they sit down to the table and whine, I’m just like, “Those who don’t cook don’t get to complain.” And the other night, they were like, “but why not?” And I was like, “because we are making labor visible!” They were not thrilled about it. But they do love the book. It’s really joyful with that excellent moral lesson.And then Big by Vashti Harrison, which just came out and is a really beautiful one about a fat ballerina. It does center on her being told she’s taking up too much space but there’s a reclaiming. I think those books are really important and we need the books where the characters just fat and nobody is really talking about it.We’re still building up that repertoire for sure. My favorite middle grade novel. hands down—I used a quote from it as the front quote in Fat Talk—is Starfish by Lisa Fipps, which is just exquisite. Heart wrenching. Such a powerful book.JoMy kids really like Bodies Are Cool. VirginiaOh, yeah. Tyler Feder, she’s great. She’s been on the pod. Tyler is amazing. My older daughter is now obsessed with her Dancing at the Pity Party graphic memoir about her dead mom, which is more of an adult book, but Violet is really running with that one right now.JoThat sounds wonderful. VirginiaIt’s a really fantastic memoir. Tyler is brilliant. JoMy kids love Bodies Are Cool because of the hair and stretch marks which look more like our bodies.VirginiaShe was so meticulous about how much diversity she included in that one. I mean, there’s kids with scars. There’s kids with the diabetes port.JoThe woman with the prosthetic foot. There’s all there’s all of it.My kids both don’t like Disney movies because a parent always dies in them and they’re scary and there’s always like a really, really bad villain. So I let them watch age inappropriate musicals. So they watch Mamma Mia and Mamma Mia: Here We Go Again and Grease and all the adult stuff goes over their heads. They just like the dancing. Mamma Mia: Here We Go Again has the best body inclusive dance sequence. VirginiaI never saw it. JoI’m going to send you the video for Waterloo. There’s all shapes and all sizes. There’s an amazing dancer in a wheelchair. She has the coolest dance moves and she’s spinning around, but they never talk about it. It’s just like, oh, this is just a wildly inclusive musical dance scene. My kids notice it, though. They’ve said, “There is everyone in this dance scene!”[Virginia’s post-recording note: The scene is fantastic and I’ll never say a bad word about Abba, but while it’s great on race and ability, the number doesn’t have much fat rep. Mamma Mia 3: Fat Dancing Queens, please!]VirginiaI mean, I loved Mamma Mia. I am now really wrestling with how I didn’t see Mamma Mia Two and I need to fix that.JoYou should probably fix it. It’s a slower burn than Mamma Mia One. But that said, Cher is in it And the last song is “Fernando,” which is missing from Mamma Mia One. VirginiaIt’s a huge oversight. Okay, well, I’ll be fixing that this weekend.ButterJoWell, when I read the description of what you wanted for butter, I immediately did think of toast.VirginiaEverybody does. JoThere’s this farm called Weed Family Orchards in the in the Hudson Valley and they do pick your own, so we always stop there on our way to the Catskills. They have this jalapeno jelly that I eat with a spoon. VirginiaThat sounds so good.JoIt’s the perfect mix of spicy and sweet and salty. I put it on everything. I put it on toast. But I’ve also put it on steak. I really like thinly sliced seared steak with jalapeno jelly. It’s really chef’s kiss.Then my non-toast recommendation is a book that just came out today, which I loved so much called The Whispers by Ashley Audrain who wrote the thriller The Push a few years ago. It digs into women and desire and wanting more than we’re allowed to have in life. It’s also a thriller in just such a smart way and I think Ashley is a national treasure. I finished it a few months ago and I’m actually really happy to get to recommend her book on her pub day today because I think that people will really really love reading it. It’s a great great summer read. VirginiaThose are both excellent butters! Mine is—I put this in a newsletter recently that I was thinking about purchasing some ice cream bowls from East Fork and I feel like people might want closure on that anecdote, to know that I did purchase the ice cream bowls. They are being delivered today. So this is an anticipatory butter, but I’m very excited about it.JoTell me which ones you ordered! I am an East Fork freak. My friend Regan is the one who wrote that style section cover story about them that was so good.VirginiaSo, I have The Mugs and last year for Christmas, I got Corinne and Tommy, who both work on the podcast, the mugs because I was like we all need the mugs. It’s very important. And now I have a couple of the big bowls for pasta. I got those last year at some point as a little gift to myself. So I’m easing into my East Fork era, because it’s pricey.JoYeah, it feels like a collector’s item. For my birthday last year I got the rainbow bowls that were limited. VirginiaI got the ice cream bowls in the piglet color which is like a blush pink they just did. It’s sort of funny because like neither of my kids like pink. But I was like, this will be for our ice cream time and I will be happy that the bowls are pink and they’ll just be excited about ice cream time. Then I also got a couple of the bitty bowls, the little ones and I got those in the butter color because how can I not get them in butter? I’m not really sure what we’re going to use the bitty bowls for, I admit that was an impulse purchase. I’d gone in for the ice cream bowls. JoHow small are they?VirginiaWell, I’ll tell you when they arrived because I got the notification they’re being delivered today. My understanding is they would be for if you’re putting out like small toppings of things or like nuts or something.JoI bought similar bowls when we were on my eat-my-way-through-Paris babymoon in September. They’re small and I bought them at like a street fair and I use them to put honey on a cheese plate or like I put my jalapeno jam in them. VirginiaI was just about to say, you could decant the jelly into this.So yeah, like I said, that was an impulse, but I’m excited about it.JoI feel good about that. [Post-recording note from Virginia: All the bowls arrived and are fantastic! We’re using the ice cream bowls constantly for both ice cream and sides of fruit on the dinner table. The bitty bowls are indeed the perfect size for jam, or for snacking on my beloved dark chocolate chips.]VirginiaJo, thank you. This was delightful. It’s so fun to talk to you. Tell folks where they can find you how we can support your work. JoSo much of my stuff remains on the Instagram even though I don’t love Instagram, but it’s the easiest way to just post where I’m going to be and what books are coming out. So that’s @jopiazzaauthor and then I’m doingOver the Influencewhich I’ve been doing for two months. I love Substack so much, it just it feels like the first nice place for writers to land on the internet in a really long time. So yeah, those are the two places. I’m also just around in the world. I love running into all of you in real life. And I’ll be in your hot tub. VirginiaSoon to be located in my hot tub!Awesome. Thank you, Jo. 

Today Virginia is chatting with Martinus Evans, the author of the brand new book Slow AF Run Club: The Ultimate Guide for Anyone Who Wants to Run. He runs Slow AF Run Club, a running community for folks to run in the bodies they have, and is @300poundsandrunning on Instagram.Remember, if you order Martinus's book (or any books we mention on the pod!) from the Burnt Toast Bookshop, you can get 10 percent off that purchase if you also order (or have already ordered!) Fat Talk! (Just use the code FATTALK at checkout.)If you want more conversations like this one, please rate and review us in your podcast player! And become a paid Burnt Toast subscriber to get all of Virginia's reporting and bonus subscriber-only episodes. Disclaimer: Virginia is a journalist and human with a lot of informed opinions. Virginia is not a nutritionist, therapist, doctor, or any kind of health care provider. The conversation you're about to hear and all of the advice and opinions she gives are just for entertainment, information, and education purposes only. None of this is a substitute for individual medical or mental health advice.BUTTER & OTHER LINKSMartinus on the cover of Runner’s WorldMartinus naked in Men’s HealthPioneers Run CrewLauren LeavellBlack Girl SunscreenHoka shoesSlow AF Run Club Merch (sizes XS to 6X!)the season of book launchFAT TALK is out! Order your signed copy from Virginia's favorite independent bookstore, Split Rock Books (they ship anywhere in the US!). Or order it from your independent bookstore, or from Barnes & Noble, Amazon, Target, or Kobo or anywhere else you like to buy books. You can also order the audio book from Libro.fm or Audible.CREDITSThe Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith. Follow Virginia on Instagram or Twitter. Burnt Toast transcripts and essays are edited and formatted by Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, an Instagram account where you can buy and sell plus size clothing. The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe. Our theme music is by Jeff Bailey and Chris Maxwell. Tommy Harron is our audio engineer. Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!Episode 97MartinusAlrighty, so, good morning, good evening, good afternoon to wherever you’re at in the world! My name is Martinus Evans and I’m a fat runner. I said it. I said the F word.VirginiaWe love it. We say all the time here.Martinus Hide your kids, hide your wives because we’re gonna say a lot of F words. I’m talking about fat.VirginiaWe can say the other ones, too.MartinusWe’re gonna say a lot. I’m a fat runner. I’m also a run coach. I’m the founder of a community called Slow AF Run Club. We have about 10,000 members worldwide. You may have seen me on the cover of Runner’s World, you may have seen my naked body in Men’s Health. My journey and my goal right now is to get 1 million people to start running in the bodies they have right now.VirginiaAnd we are here to talk about your awesome new book, Slow AF Run Club: The Ultimate Guide for Anyone Who Wants to Run. Tell us your running origin story.MartinusI was working at Men’s Wearhouse on my feet all day, commission sales in hard bottom dress shoes. Walking on concrete, like it’s carpet with concrete at the bottom. So, I start to develop some hip issues, which one would think would happen if you’re walking on concrete for 10 hours, right? When I go see my doctor who sent me to an orthopedic specialist, as I’m sitting there running down all the things: “Hey, Doc, I used to play football, currently working at Men’s Wearhouse. I’m on my feet all the time. My hip hurts like hell.” And he’s like, “Oh, I know what’s wrong with you.”Me: “Okay, what’s wrong with me?”Him: “You’re fat and if you don’t lose weight, you’re gonna die.”VirginiaI mean, just not even dressing it up at all. Not even pretending.MartinusTell me how you really feel. So I was like, I know I’m gonna die one day, but whats that got to do my hip? VirginiaI’m here for hip pain.MartinusSo then he goes on this whole thing of like you’re fat, you need to start walking, your stomach is a pregnant woman, all this other stuff. Like, “You need to get healthy.” And I just got fed up with his ass talking. So I was like, “I’m going to run a marathon, screw you, screw this. I’m going to run a marathon.” He laughs at me and tells me that’s the most stupidest thing he heard in all of his years of practicing medicine and then he went on to say if I did attempt to run a marathon, I’d die on the course.So I am fuming. I want to bless him with these hands, but I know that’s not generally accepted anymore. But I stormed out the doctor’s office. I’m ruminating about this experience. I’m driving home and I drive past a running shoe store, make an illegal U-turn, go inside of there and tell them I need shoes and I need them now. They get me some shoes.I then go home and in my apartment complex, there are three treadmills, two of them are already filled up with gazelles. So I’m inconveniently sandwiched between two gazelles who are running like bats out of hell. I’m sizing them up. One guy is going like 10 other guys going like 9. I think to myself, I can at least go 7. Fifteen seconds later when I pick myself up off the ground…Y’all, I fell. I fell off the treadmill. The treadmill rejected me or my body rejected it.VirginiaIt was a mutual rejection. It was not happening that day.Martinus It was like two magnets, polar opposites. Rejection. I was on the ground. The treadmill was still running. And I was mortified. So, I gathered everything and got the hell up out of there with tears in my eyes and thinking to myself, maybe this doctor is right.And when I got home, I had this tattoo on my right wrist. And I reached out to get the door and I see my tattoo. The tattoo says “no struggle, no progress.” This is a nod to the 1857 speech by Frederick Douglass. It goes something along the lines of:If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom and yet deprecate agitation are men who want crops without plowing up the ground; they want rain without thunder and lightning. They want the ocean without the awful roar of its many waters.And Frederick Douglass goes on to say that the struggle might be a physical one, it may be a moral one, it may be a mental one, but there needs to be some type of struggle in order to get progress with power. So, that speech always resonated with me as a younger child. Like, damn, imagine just sitting there like, “Fuck yes, we’re going to war. Freedom!” I want to be there.I got this tattoo when I was pretty young and all of that was going through my head as I reached for the door knob, and I was like, Okay, I know what I need to do. And the next day, I went back out there, and the day after that, and the day after that, and ended up running my first marathon about 18 months later. And ran eight marathons since then, and 100 other different distances.VirginiaThat’s incredible. You said in the book you don’t remember that doctor’s name. I really, really hope he sees the book and he sees your Instagram and he just he knows in his heart what he did. I think he does. So you started because you wanted to prove the doctor wrong. But when did you really start to love running? And what do you love about it?MartinusOh, my first race. Before then I’m pretty much training in a vacuum. I’m going to run early so nobody can see me because I’m still embarrassed in my body. Mortified. So I sign up for this 5k and I get there and I’m like, Alright, I know I’m slow so I’m just going to park myself in the back. So I go way back, Virginia. I go where there are moms with strollers and Golden Retrievers attached to them. I thought a mom and a stroller and two golden retrievers was going to run faster than me.And then the gun goes off and I’m like, fuck, these moms and strollers are in my fucking way! I thought they were going to run faster than me. And as I’m continuing, I run past people and run past the moms. And then I run past like the people who are walking. And then I started to run past people who are actually running. And like, that’s when it hit me. I said holy shit, I’m doing this running thing.VirginiaYou are doing it.MartinusAnd when I crossed that finish line, I had the biggest smile on my face because it hit me. I was bitten by the running bug that day.VirginiaAnd you were passing people, I’m assuming, who were thinner, who had that “runner’s body” that is obviously bullshit. MartinusI was shocking people. Like, imagine you’re running, you’re in your groove and this  fat man runs past your ass. You’re like, “Wait a minute, I need to run faster.” So that was happening, too. People would be like, “Holy shit, I need to run faster. He’s running fast. I need to run faster.” I’m like, I’m just living life.VirginiaKeep up if you can. I do want to talk about that, because a huge barrier for so many fat runners, for Black runners, for anyone running in a non-traditional runner’s body, who isn’t the gazelle on the treadmill, is this experience of feeling unsafe running in public places, of not wanting to go to the gym with the treadmills or go to the park because of what you’re going to experience. MartinusYeah, let’s talk fat talk. This is something I had to experience my whole life. One of the experiences that that will be for the next book is when I was 10, or 11, I wanted to play Little League football. However, there is a weight limit like there is an age range. So like, age 10 to 12, or 9 to 11, and there’s also a weight limit that goes with that. So they put you on a scale.VirginiaNo! I’m already mad.MartinusThey put you on the scale in front of everybody. And if you’re over a certain weight, what I experienced was a coach saying, “get that man a garbage bag.”VirginiaTo do what with? To put that terrible scale in and throw out?MartinusI wish! They made every kid who was over the weight limit run in trash bags to sweat the fat off.VirginiaAnd you are how old?Martinus10 or 11? No older than 12. So it’s something that I had to experience early on in life. It’s a great metaphor for life. You’re fat, you’re overweight, you’re over this arbitrary weight, but you’re not old enough to go to the next to the next age range.VirginiaAnd then when we talk about the stereotypes of fat people being unathletic and lazy. Could it be because we aren’t allowing them on the teams and they’re running in trash bags?MartinusImagine internalizing that. Like, literally inside of a trash bag, you’re running. You put the trash bag on like a little shirt and poke holes in it. You’re a running trash bag. Kids are yelling at you, laughing, pointing, calling you garbage kid.So as I get older, I have to be a lot quicker on my feet because as you get bullied, there’s two ways you can handle this. You can either accept it and cry. Or you can fight back. Martinus was the one who fought back and also talked shit about somebody. So, like, you called me fat. I’m gonna find that one thing about you and I’m going to harp on it. Your shoes are dirty, your mama is ugly, whatever, I’m going to let you know, right? So as I get older and I’m out running, and I’m dealing with the stuff, these are some of the things that I’m also dealing with. People are honking their horns, people calling me fat, yada, yada, yada. And one of the things that I have to do is fight back. When they go low, we go high. Screw that, sometimes you got to troll the trolls.Virginia It’s true. It’s really true. MartinusSometimes you got to troll their ass back and that’s the that’s the mode that I tend to take. Somebody honking at me in their raggedy ass car, let them have some of their own. You’re fat? Your car is raggedy. But this is where mindset comes into play, right? One of the things that I do as a coach is to provide psychological safety so that the people that I am coaching are able to be able to fail or stumble along the way as they are embarking in his new journey of fitness.VirginiaTell us a little bit about what that looks like.MartinusWhat that looks like is like letting them know that obstacles and rising up in the face of adversity is a good thing. Because for a lot of people, they think it’s a bad thing. Like, oh, I face adversity, I’m slow. Here’s the thing I always get is “I started running. And then I got a little tired. And I started walking. And I felt absolutely horrible that I had to walk.” And then I come in and say well, what was wrong with that? Did you start running again? “Yeah, I did.” What the fuck? Like, let’s celebrate that then.It’s that thing of letting people know that it’s okay to bumble and stumble and figure this thing out. Because you’re doing something with your body that you have not been A. celebrated to do and B. you’re kind of stifled. Like being a plus size person, you may have even been stifled with your with movement because you haven’t had the liberty to actually explore the things that your body might be able to do. You got to explore and figure all this stuff out. So that’s where providing psychological safety is letting them know that it’s okay.It’s almost like, imagine the kid who’s like riding a bike for the first time. They ride the bike, you let it go. They lose their balance. They fall, they scrape their knee, they are going to cry. They’re going to be like, “Oh, I don’t want to ride this bike anymore. It’s horrible. I don’t want to do this. Don’t make me do this.” But as a good parent, or as a good coach, you’re going to be like, “Okay. Let’s cry it out. You done crying. Okay, now let’s get your ass back on that bike.” Right? Right.The same thing is true with physical activity. Alright, you did it. You got a side stitch. Okay, cool. Let’s figure this out. Oh, you got shin splints? Okay, cool. Let’s figure this out. Oh, oh, you got delayed onset muscle soreness? Great. Let’s figure this out. But guess what? Your ass is going to continue to move. That’s the approach that I take. We’re going to fall off.Somewhere around us being grown it starts to be embedded in us like that doing something and then failing or not getting it right on the first time is a bad thing. I think it’s school. I blame school.VirginiaYeah, I think school is a lot of it. I’m thinking like when a baby’s learning to walk, they fall a million times and people aren’t like, you should stop trying to walk. You know what I mean?MartinusImagine that, watching a baby trying to walk and saying, “Screw you, baby. You suck. Damn you for trying to walk.”Virginia“You’re a fat baby who can’t walk.”And yet, we have this narrative that then kicks in of somehow, if I have to stop to walk during my run, that’s a moral failing. Like, walking and running are morally equivalent activities, right? Like, if you’re walking some of it, if you’re running some of it. If you are slow, that is still running. There’s no need to be attaching all these values to it. But it does seem like the culture of running at large is so built on that paradigm and you are really challenging an entire paradigm here.MartinusYes, I am. Here’s why. If you’re not an elite athlete whose life depends on winning prize money, and going to the Olympics, all of us are then paying for a participation medal to participate in a parade.VirginiaI really love relabeling marathons and other races as parades. That is what they are.MartinusDepending on some municipalities, when you go get the permit is literally a parade permit. So we are all paying to participate in the parade and to get a medal at the end if there is a participation medal. So if that’s the case, then none of this shit matters, whether we get there slower than the the elite runners or the last person because we’re all participating in this parade.VirginiaTalk a little about course time limits, because that’s a really clear way that not everyone is allowed in the parade. MartinusIt is a big problem. Last time I checked, my money is still as green as somebody who finished the race before I did. Yet, a lot of these races, like I said, they fall on the laurels of doing it the old school way, where racing was just for white men or even women. So all of that stuff is based off that and then they they fall on a thing of like, well, municipalities and blah, blah, blah, and like we’re working with all these other people to make this happen and there’s no way we can we can add an extra hour. And we’ve been here all day, volunteers, blah, blah, blah. And my thing is, get creative. Get creaive. As a slow runner, I understand you can’t have a city open all day long for a parade. However, can you get creative with it? Can you give us a rolling start? Can you give the people who actually want to participate in this and let them know “hey, you can start before everybody else but you may not be supported. But when the race is officially open, you will be supported.” Yeah, I can tolerate that.VirginiaEspecially because in the beginning you’re starting out strong and you’re less likely to need the support versus the final five miles or whatever. MartinusExactly. But what they do is they line us up speedwise, they put all the fast people in the front, they put all the slow people in the back and say good luck.VirginiaIn the book, you talk about your experiences of harassment from support wagons. These are the people who are there to make sure people finish the race safely.MartinusYes. All of that goes into like my anger. Now I’m as infuriated as you are when I mentioned trash bags.VirginiaOh my god, I’m so angry about that.What else do we need to do to make running a more inclusive sport across the board?MartinusI go to these conferences where race directors come together and try to figure out how to do better and all this other shit. Their big thing is diversity. But it’s always diversity from a race standpoint or diversity from a gender politics standpoint, right? So while they’re arguing and trying to figure that out, they need to really think about pace diversity and people who are also in the back of the pack. Because we pay money as well to participate.When you go back to the olden days, the old schools, the good old days of running it is usually a sport for white men, right? Women didn’t even participate in this because they thought your uterus was gonna fall out or some shit. VirginiaThat was a big concern of ours. Uteruses just flying out of us all the time. MartinusI don’t know why they thought that. It wasn’t falling out before a run but it’s like, well, if they ran 26 miles it is just gonna drop. VirginiaAll these uteruses at the finish line, just piling up.MartinusWhat are we gonna do with all these uteruses?VirginiaI mean, it would have been messy. You can see why they were concerned. But somehow we’ve managed. MartinusY’all persisted somehow. Kegels or whatever kept your uterus from falling out.Get 20% off for 1 yearVirginiaWe did it.So it was a very white male sport, a very thin white men’s sport, too.Martinus As a Black man, I think that there are things that people in general just need to think about as being a person of color, right? There have been situations where I’ve been slammed on police cars. I’ve been investigated or stopped during a run because it’s like, “what are you doing running?”VirginiaLiterally just that.MartinusI mean, I’m in the brightest gear ever. And the police are talking about like, “as soon as you saw my car, you started running.” I was like, “well that’s a lie. I was already, running. I got 20 miles, why are you stopping me?”So I think like those are other things that we also really need to think about. How do we protect all of our all our populations so they can feel feel good and feel safe to participate in the sport?For example, I was at Boston Marathon and the big thing was mile 21 is where like the proverbial wall is. So there are tons of people cheering and things of that sort. And this group called the Pioneers Run Crew are also there. Historically, they are people of color and they’re not doing anything different from a traditional race spectator. However, the police presence there is a lot more, because they are “impeding on the racers.” However, there are people who have got like balloon arches and are passing out beers and shots and things of that sort and there’s no police presence there.VirginiaThat’s really infuriating and needs to be something that the people organizing the races are talking more directly with the municipalities and with the police forces ahead of time, about how we’re going to create a safe space for everybody.As opposed to right now, where people are noting it when it happens and sort of reacting backwards as opposed to actually addressing this issue head on.MartinusYes. It’s like nobody has forethought. VirginiaWhich is interesting because it’s not like it’s only just happening for the first time.MartinusYes. And then the last thing is—and this is just the hill that I’m willing to die on—that if I’m paying for this race, y’all should have a shirt size to fucking fit me.VirginiaThat seems too basic.MartinusI feel like it’s lazy. Or they’re like, “a larger size costs more.” So what? Pay the extra $2 or $3.VirginiaAs you said, everybody is paying to be in the race, so you’re all entitled to a shirt.Martinus If you got a race that has 20,000 people in there, what you maybe have 50 people who need a 3x or larger shirt?VirginiaWhich, right there is a problem because you should have way more than 50 people who need that shirt if you’re making it an inclusive sport.MartinusDo a fucking dollar cost average analysis across all the other 20,000 fucking shirts you just bought.VirginiaI think you can work it out. I appreciated in the book when you were talking about post-race recovery and depression. I really appreciated your mention of working with a therapist during that time. And I do just want to name especially for a lot of the folks listening to this, running can be so amazing, but it can also be a disordered behavior for lots of folks. I wondered if we could just talk a little bit about that piece of things.How do you think about that? How have you made sure your own relationship with running stays positive?MartinusWell, anything that can be counted can be a distorted activity. And something about running is numbers and paces and all the other shit that comes along with it. So one of the things that I work on or things I do—of course, therapy, I’m a big advocate for that—is make sure there’s some boundaries around running, making sure like running is not my end all be all. I think that is a big thing that for most people, getting them to understand is that running should not be your end all be all. And if that’s it, that’s the problem.So with that being said, I do other things. I like playing video games, I like walking, playing fetch with my dog. I like spending time with my wife, I make sure to add those things in there so I’m not obsessive over the numbers. Because anything that has numbers, we can be obsessive over. The other thing that I really do is I make a plan and I stick to it. Or, or at least try to stick to 80 percent of it.VirginiaYeah, that seems fair.MartinusThat way I’m not beating myself up. Knowing that it’s averages. That’s something as a coach that I spend a lot of time getting people to feel comfortable with, is that, hey, you don’t have to run every day to be considered a runner. VirginiaYeah, that’s a big one.MartinusIt’s okay to take breaks and this is what you’re doing in the breaks. I think for a lot of people, they just need the permission to do that.I got an email earlier today where, I asked people on my email list what’s one thing that you’re struggling with? And somebody was like, “Well, I just don’t have the motivation to do it. I don’t know what to do.” And others responded back to says, “this is your permission to get your ass off the couch and go run.” And I was like, “this is just what I needed.”VirginiaSo it can go both ways. People need permission to do this and people need permission to not do it. MartinusSo really getting really to understand for you which one it is because you’re either going to be one of those types of people, somebody who needs permission to go do it, or the permission to say, hey, it’s okay to take a break and you’re golden. Yeah, I’m more on the other end.VirginiaI feel like I can be both of those people at different times of day.And then let’s talk a little bit about the weight loss piece of it. You are someone who has certainly been in the intentional weight loss space. Now you’re really big on running for the joy of it. I’m sure that also helps with keeping the running in a positive place for you,MartinusI think that since I’ve been on both sides of the scale, I get it. I go back to the story of the garbage kid, right? I go back to thinking my whole life that my body is disgusting so that I need to fix it and go through this whole intentional weight loss thing, right? Like so much so, Virginia, that my first degree was in exercise science in hopes that I can learn everything possible so I can make myself a particular weight.VirginiaI think that is so common among folks who go into exercise science and also nutrition. MartinusI think one of the things that happened to me, the come to Jesus moment, or to come to Allah moment, or to come to Buddha moment is: I had a car accident after my first first marathon. So, I ran my first marathon, lost some weight, and got into a bad car accident, totaled my car, couldn’t run for about seven months, lost everything that I lost or gained, lost all the progress. Got sad, got depressive, got suicidal.And I remember, I was at UConn at this time. So I was a grad student at Uconn and I remember it was the first 50 degree day, I’m driving. And if anybody has ever been on UConn campus, you go over this hill and it’s all these runners running and shit. And I remember talking to myself and telling myself, if I’m able to run again, I’m gonna run for the joy of it. I don’t care if I’m 100 pounds lighter or 400 pounds, I don’t care. I just want to run.Because when I lost this weight, I wasn’t 90 pounds happier. I wasn’t happier because I lost this weight. Most of the time, it came with more strife because it’s one thing for you to be plus size and people be like, Oh, you need to lose weight, be healthier, blah, blah, blah. But it’s another stab in the heart when somebody tells you I like the Fat Martinus better. Like, “I liked you better when you was fatter.” I don’t like this person you are now because you’ve lost this weight.VirginiaWhat didn’t they like?Martinus You’re damned if you do and you’re damned if you don’t. So to go through that whole situation, and be like I’m not 90 pounds happier. My life did not necessarily miraculously change like all the infomercials told me it would. But what I enjoyed the most was the running aspect of it. The talking to random strangers while I’m running this race, participating in this parade and getting my medal, that provided me the joy that I really enjoyed, versus all the other shit that came along with weigh in Wednesdays and all the other bullshit that came along with that. So that was more or less my metamorphosis.The cool thing was, since I did have this degree in exercise science and I learned all this information about cardiac rehab and strength training and all this other shit, I can pretty much flip it on its head and use it against all the diet culture trolls, because their knowledge comes from… I want to say a Ponzi scheme.VirginiaNot wrong, not wrong.MartinusTheir information comes from false science and all this other stuff. But I actually took the courses and have the research to back up the things that I was saying. So when people were like, why don’t you lose weight, you’ll be healthier. You know, I can have that that that conversation with them. Is it a healthy aesthetic? Or Is it actually health? Do you actually know my A1C, blood pressure, any of that stuff? No, you don’t. So that means you’re just assuming I have those things because of my outer appearance. What you’re pretty much telling me is, “Why don’t you have more acceptable aesthetic?”VirginiaIt’s never really about health when they say, “But what about health.” And I can see how that helps you stay focused just on the joy of running and then keep running in proportion to the rest of your life in a in an important way.MartinusThe other thing through that, Virginia, is that I’m also able to have insight to the people I work with because I’ve also been been a part of that journey.VirginiaI hear so often from folks and I feel this, too: Finding people [running or doing whatever kind of exercise you enjoy] that you feel safe with and who get your experience is so crucial. I’m just so over going to a class and having to mentally turn down the volume on the diet-y talk from the skinny instructor. I’m done with it. I’m not doing it anymore. And so finding folks like you, like Lauren Leavell, like all these people who are giving us programs that center our bodies, is so so powerful. One last piece of this is that running is also a sport that’s pretty inherently ableist. It’s obviously based on being able to run, which not everybody can do. And as we’re talking about making the sport more inclusive, I’m wondering if you have thoughts on that piece of it as well.MartinusWell, here’s the thing is that when you get to marathoning, right? It’s a super ableist sport. Some of these marathons do have hand cycles or wheelchair stuff, but that shit is expensive.VirginiaDefinitely. MartinusYou have to have the money to even have one of those things, to even afford a not even just one cycle but multiple cycle bikes or multiple racing wheelchairs. And I think that that’s another thing that a lot of people may not be able to get into. Because that shit takes a lot of money. So it goes back to the race directors getting creative. How we can we get creative so that more people can participate in the sport? And really enjoy the gravitas that comes with like running a marathon or running a half-marathon everybody can participate in. But it really goes back to the race directors, like, what are you doing to be creative? What resources are you doing? How are you educating yourself? Are you staying within your same circle of people that you have conferences with? Then you’re not necessarily growing. You need to go to a conference that focuses on disabled individuals or disabled athletes to really understand where they’re coming from, their point of view in order to help make the sport more equitable.ButterMartinusCan I have two pieces of butter?VirginiaYou can have multiple butters. MartinusOkay. Black Girl Sunscreen.VirginiaOh, I don’t know about this. Tell me.MartinusIt is a sunscreen that was created by women of color. And it’s one sunscreen that does not give me one of those white hazy thing faces that comes along with sunscreen. They have it in like—I want to say flavors? They have multiple different ways where it’s like they have one that’s like a gel basis, like matte, so if you sweat it is more of a matte. They have one that’s like make it glow where it kind of glows on you.VirginiaThat’s a great butter.MartinusI like that. Also, Hoka shoes. I love a good Hoka.VirginiaThey’re everywhere now.Martinus Yes, they are everywhere. I really just love this shoe. I really love what they stand for and it’s by far one of the most comfortable shoes that I wear outside of running.VirginiaI was gonna say it really lives up to the comfort hype.MartinusAnd then the last piece, I might do a shameless plug for myself: Slow AF Run Club Merch. I’ve spent a lot of time and effort in order to make clothing that’s accessible. So most of my clothing goes from XS to a 5x or 6x. One of the things that I really love about that for this piece of butter is that it shows that someone who does not have the experience in clothing—because I don’t—can figure it the fuck out with no budget. Just the little budget that I have.It proves that these brands can do it. They just choose not to.VirginiaTo your point about let’s get creative. Well, that is awesome butter.My butter this week is something I was thinking about as I was reading your book. I’ve talked about this a little bit on the pod, but I had a pretty disordered relationship with running in my 20s. It was definitely not not a good space for me and I had to put it down for a long time and really put down all exercise for a long time. I have gotten back to exercise in the last five years or so and found a lot of joy in different forms of exercise.And then in the last three months or so, as I’ve been in the season of book launch, I have not been exercising because I am just too damn tired. But I realized I also haven’t been spiraling about the lack of exercise. Like, I trust that it will be back.I trust that I’m in that season of I need the nap on a Saturday afternoon more. I need time in my garden, which is also movement and joyful, but I also need just still, peaceful time in my garden and to trust that it’s coming back. And I would just like to shout out to taking those recovery periods when you need them and recognizing that not every season of life is marathon season or whatever your equivalent is.MartinusAbsolutely. I agree. I like that piece of butter.VirginiaWell, this was great. Tell folks where they can follow you. How we can support your work? Everyone needs to go get the book, that is your number one assignment. But what else do you need from us?Get SLOW AF RUN CLUB!MartinusYes, go get the book! It’s available wherever books are sold. If you want to know more about the slow AF Run Club, you can visit the website. We also have an app on iOS and Android so after you get done with this podcast, open up your app store and download our app. Come on in, we have 10,000+ individuals who are here to love on you and get you running in the body that you have right now.And then you can find out more about me on my personal Instagram. And yeah, if you’re interested in Slow AF Club merch, you can go to slowafstore.com.VirginiaAmazing. We will do all of that. Thank you, Martinus, for being here.

Today Virginia is chatting with Elise Hu, the author of the brand new book Flawless: Lessons in Looks and Culture from the K-Beauty Capital, which explores the intersections of beauty culture and diet culture in South Korea. If you have ever purchased a sheet mask or a babyfoot peel or any other K beauty products or if you’ve just been aware of the absolute phenomenon of Korean beauty culture, you need to read Flawless.Remember, if you order Elise's book (or any books we mention on the pod!) from the Burnt Toast Bookshop, you can get 10 percent off that purchase if you also order (or have already ordered!) Fat Talk! (Just use the code FATTALK at checkout.)If you want more conversations like this one, please rate and review us in your podcast player! And become a paid Burnt Toast subscriber to get all of Virginia's reporting and bonus subscriber-only episodes. Disclaimer: Virginia is a journalist and human with a lot of informed opinions. Virginia is not a nutritionist, therapist, doctor, or any kind of health care provider. The conversation you're about to hear and all of the advice and opinions she gives are just for entertainment, information, and education purposes only. None of this is a substitute for individual medical or mental health advice.BUTTER & OTHER LINKSTED Talks Dailybabyfoot peelmothers get held responsible for their children’s weightbut what if I just want to lose weight?Heather WiddowsEscape the Corset the squiggly noodles from Trader Joe’s new spring Birkenstocks.FAT TALK is out! Order your signed copy from Virginia's favorite independent bookstore, Split Rock Books (they ship anywhere in the US!). Or order it from your independent bookstore, or from Barnes & Noble, Amazon, Target, or Kobo or anywhere else you like to buy books. You can also order the audio book from Libro.fm or Audible.CREDITSThe Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith. Follow Virginia on Instagram or Twitter. Burnt Toast transcripts and essays are edited and formatted by Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, an Instagram account where you can buy and sell plus size clothing. The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe. Our theme music is by Jeff Bailey and Chris Maxwell. Tommy Harron is our audio engineer. Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!Episode 96VirginiaYou lived in Seoul for four years to be the NPR bureau chief there. What did you know about Korean beauty culture going into it? Did you think there would be a book in it?EliseNever. No. I did not think there was going to be a book in it at the time and I still can’t believe one exists, knowing my personality. I have a very short attention span. I also don’t like to write alone or even be alone with my thoughts. And as you know… VirginiaThere is some of that required. It’s hard to get around that. EliseI didn’t know a whole lot about Korea, period, when I got posted out there. I think that was part of the motivation for NPR. They liked my journalistic style of being a fish out of water and exploring a place and explaining it and reporting it out with the listener. That was the end of 2014 when we first started having conversations about opening up a Northeast Asia Bureau. So by the beginning of 2015, never having set foot in South Korea before, I moved my husband, my toddler, my geriatric Beagle, two cats, and a baby in my belly all over to Seoul, a place where I hadn’t so much as had a layover at the airport.Part of the excitement in it for me was that it was Northeast Asia, a place where we hadn’t turned the lights on as a news organization before. We just really hadn’t had anybody permanently posted there. So I would cover not just South Korea, but also North Korea and Japan—and what an exciting region. There’s a huge US military presence there, too, that I think gets under-covered. I think half of all of US military stationed overseas is in Korea and Japan. VirginiaOh, wow. I didn’t know that. EliseThere was so much to learn. What did I know about Korean beauty culture at the time? I knew that sheet masks were getting cool. A lot of my friends who were the more in-the-know, hip ones, the ones that read The Cut every day and knew about all the coolest ingredients and the best treatments that were available, they were really into K beauty culture already. Because K beauty culture, as I found, is often not just years ahead, but a decade ahead when it comes to various skincare innovations.So I knew about sheet masks, I knew a little bit about the packaging, I knew that Chinese tourists were going to Seoul a lot to try and load up on various products. I knew about the plastic surgery. I think I really saw it as vanity at the time. I had my Western judgmental attitude about it, when I first got to Seoul.VirginiaYou really explode this concept of vanity and this myth that women engage in beauty work because we’re shallow or we’re looks-obsessed. You talk about understanding beauty work—whether it’s skincare, plastic surgery, weight loss, all of it—is a survival strategy, particularly in a culture with high rates of lookism and fatphobia.EliseIt absolutely is. I mean, the entire concept, the term “lookism,” was new to me. When we say lookism, it’s appearance-based discrimination. Lookism works in all these insidious ways, obviously to marginalize people, but also it can reward those who do focus on their appearance and do the work of improving it to better match the prevailing culture and beauty standards of the day.Having good looks is framed as your personal responsibility. Obviously it’s a very feminine look—you’ve seen Korean K-pop girl groups—so that generally is the model for how a Korean woman should look. If you don’t at least try to match that standard or if you fail, it’s seen as a personal failing. And hard work then means work on your body. And it problematizes all sorts of bodies that don’t fit. Something that I learned very early on was that my size wasn’t welcome in Korea.VirginiaI do want to talk about the concept of the “free size,” which is one size fits all/one size fits no one? I mean, what?EliseI have a chapter called “Free Size Isn’t Free.” Because at so many of the boutiques for the cutest clothes—the stylish ones, the indie boutiques—the clothes come in “free size,” but free size is the equivalent to the to a US size 2. I felt so unwelcome in Seoul in my own body and just appearing as I did. It wasn’t just size, though I think thinness is such a pillar of global beauty standards that it cannot be divorced from lookism, the venn diagram almost overlaps such that it’s one circle. But it was also having freckles! VirginiaYes! I was fascinated by the freckles thing!EliseHaving freckles, it was like I might as well have had pus-eating boils on my face.But freckles are a window into how South Korea not only exports these images of beautiful Koreans and sells that all tangled up with K-pop, K-drama and its pop culture might around the world. It also exports the medical aesthetic upgrades that you can get to improve your face and skin and bodies. The comments I would get were something like, “Oh, you have freckles, we can fix that. Why wouldn’t you fix that?” So, if the technology or the solution exists to fix the problem, of course you should get rid of your freckles. Of course you’re not good enough as you are. When we have a solution, like, why not? It makes no sense.VirginiaIt’s a really strong parallel with the conversation we’re having now around Ozempic, where people are like, well, if it finally exists, there’s a drug that you can help you lose weight, why wouldn’t you lose the weight? And there’s no discussion. Well, Burnt Toast knows I’m discussing it, but the mainstream conversation has not been discussing how much that is erasure of people’s bodies. Freckles are natural, they are part of skin! Like, why do we need to erase them?EliseDiversity is part of the human experience. It’s actually part of nature, too. I don’t go to a pet adoption center and only find Golden Retrievers worthy, right? It just doesn’t make any sense to me. Our adherence to beauty culture, our adherence to lookism is so familiar that we barely notice it. But as you have said, the appropriate response to homophobia isn’t to make everyone straight, and the appropriate response to anti-fat bias isn’t to make everybody skinny. The appropriate response to lookism isn’t to make everybody pretty. Except when I lived in South Korea, I found that it was completely logical to make yourself prettier—because of the professional and personal and social costs if you didn’t.VirginiaIt is asking people to pay this high price to opt out of a system when it’s that entrenched.Another piece of this that was really helpful for me to learn about was I thought I understood a lot of the Korean beauty ideals as being rooted in Whiteness, but they’re really not. I wondered if you could talk us through that a little bit because that was super fascinating.EliseThe desire for white skin certainly predates war and colonization, even. The desire for white skin was about a class performance dating to the earliest dynasties in China, Korea and Japan. The aristocratic women, the ones who didn’t have to go outside, had the fairest skin. And those who had to work the fields had darker skin. So there was a real aspiration to Whiteness that was about class. We see throughout civilizations and various time periods that beauty work really is about class. So often, when we see people who you would describe as conventionally pretty, you’re really describing that they’re conventionally wealthy.VirginiaIt’s money. EliseRight. The people who can look the closest to physical ideals are often the ones who can afford to spend the most money. Another strain that comes out of this is the idea of the no-makeup makeup look, or affecting effortlessness out of effort. Being able to look like you just got out of bed and didn’t put on any makeup is largely the work of lasers or eyelash extensions or skincare treatments that cost thousands and thousands of dollars and lots of time and research and the labor of other people, which can be extractive, especially in the US. And that doesn’t get factored into the equation at all. We should just be aware of it.VirginiaAnd concepts like glass skin. That was another fascinating concept and how that is a completely manufactured attempt to look natural, sort of.EliseRight, right. Think about how many serums or how much care and attention and how much free time you would have to have to devote to getting your skin to a level of looking reflective like glass. I don’t have that kind of time. I think most women do not.VirginiaNo, I know you’re a mom of three. I’m a mom of two. I don’t have ten step cleaning practices in my day. I don’t want a recipe to have 10 steps. Nothing can have ten steps.EliseSome of the interview questions I’ve gotten as I’ve launched this book include “What do you do for your skin?” And first of all, it focuses on the wrong thing because this is not the an individual thing, right? When I get questions like, “should your daughter shave or laser?” I actually think that we’re putting the focus on individuals when we shouldn’t because it ends up resulting in us judging one another when the focus really should be these cultural forces that keep us on a hamster wheel.But also, my answers are so just boring. I’m just like, “well, I wash my skin and I moisturize.”VirginiaSunscreen seems nice. EliseSunscreen is the main takeaway. I am a thinker on beauty topics, but I am no beauty blogger. These are separate things.VirginiaI get a lot of those “what do you do?” questions, too, and I think it also speaks to how much the system has sold us this idea of personal responsibility and personal labor, as you’re saying. That this is your job, to take care of your body in this way. So then even when we’re critiquing it, we’re like, “but what do you do?” because we want you to tell us what we can opt out of. It’s a very diet culture mindset.EliseThis personal responsibility then extends to maternal responsibility or parental responsibility. Like the way that mothers get held responsible for their children’s weight is something that I saw in South Korea not just with regard to weight, but also with regard to their children’s looks. So mothers and grandmothers were often the ones who were gifting plastic surgery to their high school graduates because they wanted to ensure a brighter and happier future for them.Never mind that we have tangled up health and happiness with good looks. That is already questionable and problematic and wrong, but then your maternal love gets wrapped up into whether you are helping and assisting your child in or teenager in looking “better.” And that was really heartbreaking.An anecdote that was shared with me by one of the women that I interviewed who talked about how her father made her watch pageant videos so that she could learn how to walk properly and learn how to walk more like a lady. So she would have to watch those videos every night and then and feel anxious and self conscious about her body and then she would have to actually walk and perform for her father to see whether she had absorbed the lessons of what she was watching on the pageant videos.And I asked her, “What happened if you didn’t? What happened if you refused?” and there was just no notion that she could even refuse. There was the filial piety involved. But she said she worried that her parents would have starved her because it mattered to them so much that she be able to have a fulfilling life and that meant being thin enough to find a husband.VirginiaYes, she said, “They basically already were so I just thought it would get so much worse.” It was chilling. And it’s so easy to want to judge those parents and think, like, what a creepy thing to do to your kid.EliseBut it’s economically rational.VirginiaIt’s hard to know that your child will face such stigma and derision if you don’t participate in this. EliseI’m curious, with the parents that you talked to who felt as though they needed to restrict their children’s eating, where did they end up landing for the most part? After being presented evidence on how the long tail effects aren’t good, nor do they even necessarily maintain whatever weight they were trying to achieve. VirginiaIt was a real range. There’s one mom in the book who I still think about a lot who was really on board with wanting to do things differently and then the pediatrician shamed her for how much weight her son gained during the pandemic. And she was like, “I’m back on Weight Watchers. He’s going to the Healthy Weight clinic. We’re back in.” And then there were others who were really relieved to realize they could opt out of the system. But I think there’s a lot of privilege involved and who can safely opt out. EliseThat’s true for opting out of beauty culture, as well. There are plenty of women who don’t have the privilege of being able to opt out. Notably, the trans women of South Korea. There’s still no anti-discrimination law in South Korea and trans women feel unsafe all over the world, but in South Korea they are such outcasts. There’s not a lot of social understanding about transgender people. There are plenty of trans women who said, “We do not support the beauty culture that we live in and find it oppressive. At the same time, appearing femme is a matter of survival for us. We need to pass in order to safely move about the world without being assaulted.”VirginiaIt is so scary. There were parts that were so familiar, too, like the way you said the only Korean words your daughters learned were cute and pretty because that’s how everyone addressed them. That’s true for American little girls, too, right? You’re in the diner and the waitress is like, “You’re so pretty.” And I’m just like, “and smart…”There’s definitely a universality to how we engage with girls as objects from childhood. But it did seem like there were specific ways it played out that seemed quite different from how it plays out in America. EliseOne reason why the beauty culture in South Korea is so extreme—and there are many factors, one is technology. The technology infrastructure and its status as one of the world’s first fully wired nations means that it’s an increasingly visual and virtual society and it’s becoming more visual and virtual faster than the rest of the world. So that’s a huge component.But there are also cultural reasons that make the beauty culture a little bit more oppressive, or noticeably oppressive. And it’s that 97 percent of Korea is Koreans, which is certainly not the case in the United States. So it was really hard, for example, for me to find cover up makeup, the BB cream cushion that I get into the history of, I couldn’t find it in my shade because I’m a little bit of a darker Asian.And it follows with “free size” as well. There’s such a critical mass of people with the same shape and people of the same size that the companies don’t go to the trouble of expanding their lines. So instead of the clothes changing to fit you, you change to fit the clothes. Instead of the cover up needing to come in different shades, you stay out of the sun or you just wear a lighter shade. There were often times where I would go get makeup done for a television interview in Seoul, and they would just make me chalky white because it was like, “This is what we got.”VirginiaAnd we’ve covered your freckles. We assume you’re thrilled about that.EliseOh yes. The freckles were gone.VirginiaI was really fascinated by how it played into the revering of elders. Kids don’t really have these other options, like the for the girl to say to her father, “I’m not going to practice the walk,” is just not part of the conversation at all. EliseThere was this theme of choice but not a choice. So much of our aesthetic labor under capitalism gets coded as empowerment. You think you’re choosing the new injectable, you’re thinking you’re choosing the laser removal of your blemishes or whatever. And while that is a choice, it’s not necessarily liberation and freedom to be however you want to be.VirginiaI think about that a lot when people say to me, "but what if I just want to lose weight? Just for me. I just want to lose it for me.” There’s no making that choice in a vacuum here. EliseWe’re not islands. VirginiaThere’s no “just for you” because you’re part of this whole thing. I was thinking a lot about pedicures as I was reading this, because I remember during COVID, I tracked down the baby foot peel things because I couldn’t go get pedicures. And I remember doing them one night and being like, “I’m not even leaving house. Am I enjoying sitting with my feet in the bathtub for half an hour so that the skin will all peel off in two days? I don’t know if I like this.”EliseThere’s so much beauty work that I do enjoy so long as it doesn’t feel like I’m doing it because I’m worried about what others will think. When I wrote about older Korean women, the ajummas, they found a way or arrived at a place where they care for one another and care for their bodies in a way that’s kind of reciprocal. It’s like showing respect for one another. So they’re not completely unkempt because it’s group cohesion. They’re not competing against one another. I think in younger women’s groups we can often kind of get into competitive or hierarchical thinking or feel as though we have to keep up with everybody else’s Botox, whatever it is.I think interrogation is key. Like, ask yourself, is this an ego driven decision? Or does this come from an inner appreciation for my body and what I what I want for it, what I want to do to care for it.And I write about how when women are outliving men, so often the touch of a beauty worker, somebody who is giving you a pedicure or or giving you a massage or a facial might be the only time you are touched by another person in the course of a week or a day even. So there is something really lovely about the touch and that nurturing feeling of beauty workers, so I don’t reject it out of hand. I certainly don’t want Flawless to come off as a polemic. VirginiaNo, and it doesn’t.EliseIt actually wrestles with with it. There’s a lot to celebrate, I think, about the way we can care for one another and our bodies. I just think that it needs to be in a framework of community, always, and not like, “what about me?”VirginiaRight and being realistic about what is a necessary cost of doing business to exist in this world or in this profession or whatever. In Korea, it’s common for people have to put their height and weight and photos on their job applications for any career. EliseThat’s a huge example of the lookism. Another example is there’s myriad matchmaking firms in South Korea, so you can date through the apps, but you can also just go to a matchmaking firm, and there’s thousands of them. And the matchmaking firms will rate people with in terms of specs, like the way that we use specs to describe the specs of my MacBook Air or the size of my phone. So specs have an entire range of things that you’re supposed to look like, right? Your specs can include your height, your weight, your bra size, whether you possess a certain cuteness that that will get ranked by the agencies. So it’s just insidious. It’s pervasive. It’s everywhere.VirginiaTalk to me more about the cuteness thing because that was something really interesting that was threaded throughout. The cuteness of the packaging. The celebration of cuteness. Cuteness is a beauty ideal in a way that I hadn’t really thought about. And then again, when we’re thinking about children, it also helps them market all these products younger and younger.EliseSo the social and ethnographic research by a philosopher named Heather Widdows, whose research undergirds a lot of my book, found that there are four global beauty pillars: Thinness, firmness, smoothness, and youth. I really see cuteness as tied in with the youthfulness.So it’s a beauty ideal on one hand, but it also shows up in the way that beauty products are sold. So something that’s really distinctive about K beauty products is the way that packaging is made to look like food, or the form factor continually changes. It will start as lip color that that came in a tube like lipstick has always, but they’ll change it to make it a lip stain that comes out of a nail polish container. And then it’ll change into something else. The churn is very fast. And then you can retire and introduce new products constantly.And then, because of the cuteness, it seems as though younger and younger groups, younger and younger demographics could participate in it. So if you’re a teenager, you’ve already been surrounded by these little fruit shaped lip balms, moisturizer in milk carton containers since you were in elementary school. It’s only natural that you would creep into using skincare and using using makeup products very young because it almost seems childlike.VirginiaThey seem like toys. You talk about the stats on how young kids start wearing makeup there.EliseYeah it’s usually like six or seven, but not for everyone.VirginiaThat is young.EliseEspecially because it is time and energy that we could be spending elsewhere. And when kids are also having to internalize this idea that their their existence is for somebody else’s eyes, for somebody else’s gaze so young. My eldest daughter is now 10—how old is your oldest?VirginiaShe’s almost 10 as well. EliseI feel like she’s now at the age where she’s noticing the way she is seen and is able to articulate it. I’m sure that they noticed this much younger. But it just breaks my heart a little bit that they’re getting this notion very, very young that they have to perform. Korean girls get little lipstick pockets. Lipstick pockets are part of their school uniforms. So there’s an idea that you need to have lip balm or lip tint inside.VirginiaIt’s like a school supply. You need your pencils and your lip tint. That is definitely something I had to sit with.I feel like a core argument of what I’m doing is to talk about body autonomy. One of the casual tips I often give parents is don’t fight so hard on the hairbrushing. Let them pick out their own outfits. And I’m just realizing that there’s a lot of Western privilege underpinning that as a strategy. That I can give my kids that kind of freedom and they won’t be policed if they go to school with their hair unbrushed. I think our school is just like, “well, that’s Virginia’s kids.” There’s no social cost to it, especially for little thin white girls, to show up looking messy.EliseI join you in these conversations and in the struggle for progress, because to me progress would be being able to opt out and not pay a price. Because the demands of beauty culture require tremendous resources and the costs right now—the social costs, the economic costs to opting out—are too great. So technology is a big part of a lot of these conversations because we are presented and barraged with beauty ideals and thinness ideals through social media.But the other end of technology that I think doesn’t get talked about enough is all of the self-improvement technology that is now available. Because when there are advances like, self checkout, people are like, well, I’m going to change my behavior to use it. So when there are advances like lasering off those blemishes or those freckles from your skin, then there’s an assumption that I will use it. But crucially, these are all markets that are created for us. And often I think the supply creates the demand. That’s certainly true for a lot of things happening with plastic surgery and cosmetic fixes in general, like this buccal fat removal which is the most searched procedure in the United States in 2023.VirginiaI still don’t totally understand what it is and I’m okay with that. But you should also tell us about it.EliseIt’s just removing removing excess fat from the jawline so that your jaw looks a lot more defined, gets rid of the double chin. But why are double chins bad? Like, why can’t some people have puffy faces? Why can’t my fat distribute however it’s gonna distribute?VirginiaIt will land where it lands! As someone who identifies as small fat I’m like, we can take it off my chin, but I’d still be fat. So I guess I just sort of ignored that one. But I can understand why that’s getting pushed so hard. The economics of all of this is just fascinating.I do want you to tell us about the Escape the Corset movement, because I feel like we need a little hope.EliseSo, in South Korea, women are ridiculed for attempting to capitalize on their appearance. So if you get too much plastic surgery or you seem like you care too much, then you’re ridiculed. But then you’re even more ridiculed if you seem like you don’t care at all and don’t do anything.VirginiaThere’s a very narrow lane of getting it right.EliseAnd it’s usually that effortless look, right? So the Escape the Corset women are Korean feminists who in 2018, my last year in South Korea, took part in what I would describe as a general strike against aesthetic labor. They were just like, “we’re not going to do this anymore.” And they catalogued how much money and time and energy they were spending on trying to look like the ideal Korean woman. They crushed their compacts and took photos of them with the hashtag #proofofdiscardedcorset. They made videos of them cutting off all their hair. They now wear largely unisex clothing and appear as they want in a country where their appearance matters the most.And they are often uninvited from family gatherings, they are bullied by their peers, they are chastised by their managers. Some have lost jobs, some have even been reportedly assaulted as a result of not participating and not looking like the ideal Korean woman.But they’re so brave and also inspiring because the risks that they take in order to just have bodily autonomy are so much greater than the risks that I take in appearing as I do, which is much like them, on the streets of Los Angeles. They really stick out and they continue to.I had a Zoom with them on Saturday night and it was probably my favorite thing that I’ve done in the promotion for Flawless. They said under this conservative administration that they’re under now, male pattern baldness and treatment for that is covered by the National Health Insurance, but treatment for eating disorders is not.VirginiaI mean, that’s only the most fatal mental health condition. Why would we do that?EliseBut male pattern baldness is now covered! Anyway, so they are really down and discouraged and disillusioned, but continue to fight and continue to organize. And they talked to me about how they want to be good ancestors. They don’t want the next generation of men and women coming up in South Korea to feel the same lack of safety and lack of feeling welcome in their own society and then just the oppressiveness of a lookist culture. So they’re continuing to do the work and I admire it so much because these are huge risks to take.VirginiaTruly, icons. Yeah, I don’t know what we can do from here to support it, but if you know where we can send dollars or support of any kind, please tell us because that’s really important. EliseI will do that.ButterVirginiaWell, Elise, I would love to know what your Butter is. EliseMine are the squiggly noodles from Trader Joe’s. Eating them as a snack. Squiggly noodles come in a pack like instant ramen noodles would come in a pack. And they come with a soy and sesame sauce. And they take I think four minutes to prepare. I chop up some cucumbers and maybe some tofu and gussy up my squiggly noodles a little bit.But they are inspired by the knife cut noodles of the Shanxi province in China. And they are awesome. So they come out really squiggly because they mimic the way that knife cut noodles, when you’re shaving them off a block, they’ll come out squiggly. And they are delicious. My Tiktok just sends me like convenient food ideas constantly.VirginiaMy Tiktok needs to do that.EliseThat’s a sub-tiktok world that I’ve fallen into and I love it. It brings me so much joy.VirginiaThat’s great.EliseThe squiggly noodles take four minutes and I think they cost like $4.VirginiaThat is an excellent Butter. Thank you. Mine is I just got my new spring Birkenstocks. I have a little bit of a love/hate with Birkenstocks because they’re very expensive. And you really don’t get more than like two seasons out of them. So I feel like I buy a new pair every year. But they are the most comfortable shoes and it makes me so happy.It really always gives me this moment of reflection because when I first left New York City and moved—I live in the Hudson Valley now—I had a whole emotional journey about was I going to become a Birkenstock person. This was before they were cool. This was like 2008, before they were like on runways and had gotten their glow up. I just think a lot about like 20-something me with so many pairs of high heels at the office. I still pay for it with the lower back issues. So yeah, I’m in my 40s and I just wear my Birkenstocks and I’m really happy. I got them in this cool olive green and I’m very excited about it.EliseI love it. That does sound so comfortable. It reminds me of that test for what we do or don’t do with our bodies when it comes to body care and rituals. If it feels like a greater step into yourself, like the Birkenstocks are for you, then absolutely that’s the way to go. But if it feels like you are wearing something or doing something that is more tantamount to a costume, like high heels, then that that choice is also made for you. VirginiaI just think how hard it was to walk around Manhattan for years. It was so difficult. But I worked in women’s magazines, there was no world in which you didn’t wear heels to the office. EliseIt was what the culture required of you, so much like the Korean women. This is what the culture requires and so I have to occupy space this way. VirginiaSo I would walk to work in my flip flops and then I left on my shoes under my desk. When the last magazine I worked for folded, I had to messenger home like 30 pairs of shoes.EliseI’m so glad that that experience has helped inform what you were doing now as a body liberation journalist.VirginiaWell, I am so grateful for your work, Elise. The book is incredible. It is called Flawless: Lessons in Looks and Culture from the K-Beauty Capital. Everyone needs to check it out. Tell us how can we support you. Where can we find your work? EliseYou can find me at EliseHu.com That’s where all the events on the book tour are going to show up and where you can find out more information about the book. I hang out on the dredges of Twitter only occasionally now—what’s left of Twitter. I’m @elisewho and I’m hanging out more on Instagram @elisewho.

Today Virginia is chatting with Cole Kazdin, author of What's Eating Us: Women, Food, and the Epidemic of Body Anxiety, which explodes a lot of the problems with our current eating disorder treatment system.Remember, if you order Cole's book (or any books we mention on the pod!) from the Burnt Toast Bookshop, you can get 10 percent off that purchase if you also order (or have already ordered!) Fat Talk! (Just use the code FATTALK at checkout.)If you want more conversations like this one, please rate and review us in your podcast player! And become a paid Burnt Toast subscriber to get all of Virginia's reporting and bonus subscriber-only episodes. Disclaimer: Virginia is a journalist and human with a lot of informed opinions. Virginia is not a nutritionist, therapist, doctor, or any kind of health care provider. The conversation you're about to hear and all of the advice and opinions she gives are just for entertainment, information, and education purposes only. None of this is a substitute for individual medical or mental health advice.BUTTER & OTHER LINKSShira RosenbluthFor anyone who needs to recover into a fat body, you’re asking them to sacrifice the safety of their eating disorder in the sense that it’s harder to exist in this world in a fat body than in a thinner one.Gloria Lucasjust journal or do a crossword puzzlebacklash against the diagnosis of atypical anorexiaa very good piece about atypical anorexiaVirginia's story on KurboMadeline DonahueLindsey GuileCole on InstagramFAT TALK is out! Order your signed copy from Virginia's favorite independent bookstore, Split Rock Books (they ship anywhere in the US!). Or order it from your independent bookstore, or from Barnes & Noble, Amazon, Target, or Kobo or anywhere else you like to buy books. You can also order the audio book from Libro.fm or Audible.CREDITSThe Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith. Follow Virginia on Instagram or Twitter. Burnt Toast transcripts and essays are edited and formatted by Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, an Instagram account where you can buy and sell plus size clothing. The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe. Our theme music is by Jeff Bailey and Chris Maxwell. Tommy Harron is our audio engineer. Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!Episode 95 TranscriptColeI’m a journalist and now author. I worked in television news for many, many years and then left that work about 10 years ago to return to print journalism. If you’re a freelance journalist, you end up reporting about everything, right? Crime and the environment and breaking news. But I found myself focusing more and more on mental health reporting and in part that was because I was in a very unsatisfying moment of eating disorder recovery myself. And when I started reporting on mental health, specifically mental health around eating disorder recovery and the eating disorder epidemic, it really shifted the focus of my work to the point where it was all I wanted to really write about and thus the book. VirginiaIt’s called What's Eating Us: Women, Food, and the Epidemic of Body Anxiety. It’s incredible, Cole. Your reporting is top notch and then you also put your own story into this which I know can be difficult to do—to really go there—and you weave in other people’s stories. It’s just a beautiful mix of memoir and reporting.ColeThank you. VirginiaWhat made you decide this needed to be a book and this kind of book?ColeI had an eating disorder on and off through most of college and into my adult life. When I finally got treatment, I was very prepared for that treatment to be excellent and I’m done and now we don’t have an eating disorder anymore. It was so unsatisfying to me that it wasn’t remotely like that. It was more than the residue of the eating disorder. I was not very healed.So, I started approaching it as a journalist, with the idea of seeing if I was the only one that felt this way. Is this in my own head? Am I crazy? Am I not able to recover because it’s just me? And also, as you know, as a journalist you can access people that would never talk to you if you are a patient. VirginiaOh yes. It’s a definite perk. ColeSo I was writing short pieces about why doesn’t eating disorder recovery feel better? And what are the inequities in eating disorder care and in diagnosis? And the more I started reporting this, and the more people I spoke with both everyday people like myself who were suffering, and the clinicians, the researchers, the more I started to understand that not only was this not just in my head, this is the way it is. And understanding the scope of that, I felt an urgency to write a longer piece about this, to write a full book where I could reach all those points.I use a lot of memoir because I think the transparency piece is very important. Eating disorders are very lonely and you really feel like you’re the only one suffering even though you know on paper that you’re not. So, I just wanted people to know how messy and difficult it is, to normalize that. And that no one is alone if they’re suffering from this.VirginiaI mean, this whole concept of “full recovery” is so interesting. I feel like I’m beginning to see some pushback about that in the eating disorder therapist community. My good friend Shira Rosenbluth has talked a lot about her own eating disorder journey and this idea of full recovery being frankly unrealistic for so many people, given the current reality of treatments. Who currently gets to be fully recovered from an eating disorder?ColeWhat is so tricky about this is that no one can agree fully on what it means to be recovered from an eating disorder.VirginiaI mean, that’s mind blowing right there. ColeRight. So, some organizations and clinicians define it as “you’re no longer engaging in the symptoms:” Starving, binging and purging, or whatever combination of those. Like, that would be a metric of recovery, that you’re no longer engaging in those symptoms. But then, in so many treatments, your underlying traumas or anything else that’s contributing to why you might have developed that eating disorder are not addressed.I had a very good treatment, cognitive behavioral therapy, which is considered a gold standard—I don’t want to use the word “standard,” because there really is no standard of care with eating disorders. But the definition of recovery is so nebulous. NEDA, that National Eating Disorder Association, has a kind of definition where they say it’s addressing the physical medical issues, so whatever medical issues arose as a result of one’s eating disorder, then the behavioral symptoms, again whatever behaviors you’re engaging in that are disordered. And then the third category is the psychological piece, which no one can really define.VirginiaThat’s what we can’t nail down. And even right there, that feels complicated because you might make progress on behaviors and even the psychological piece, but have lingering medical complications, right? So that feels like a troubling metric. And then: In the same way that abstinence is not full recovery from alcoholism or drug abuse, just making someone “behavior abstinent” is not the same thing as actually working through the disorder.ColeRight. And that’s why I think it feels so tricky, especially because we move around in this world where all of these behaviors that supported our disordered way of being—dieting, restricting food, giving up whatever the thing is, they are completely normalized in our culture. So if we have a feeling, oh, I don’t think I want to eat pasta. Okay, is that the eating disorder? Is that just our world that we live in?I passed a store or restaurant in LA that said “Pasta! But with the calories of a salad.” Like, I don’t even know what that means. I won’t even unpack that here, we don’t have the time. But if that’s the world we’re moving around in once we’re recovered, then that’s the psychological piece—and that’s not even thinking about what your family history is and any other contributing factors.One thing I’m starting to shape in my mind when I think about recovery is this idea of safety. And I think that’s the missing piece of recovery: Safety in our own bodies, and safety in the world that we’re living in. If we don’t have a sense of safety, we cannot be recovered. And I think the way you insulate yourself from the diet culture world we live in is with community. So, I think safety and community go hand in hand. And that’s what makes recovery feasible.Because for especially people in marginalized communities who may feel the stress of say everyday racism, that person who may go through eating disorder treatment comes out into the world and still feels unsafe in their body. So will they be recovered? So, I don’t think you can have recovery without safety. And I think that’s one piece that’s not really being talked about.VirginiaThat becomes such a complicated piece of it. For anyone who needs to recover into a fat body, you’re asking them to sacrifice the safety of their eating disorder in the sense that it’s harder to exist in this world in a fat body than in a thinner one. So there’s that layer to it. And then also all of that plays into who even accesses treatment in the first place. Like, who gets diagnosed, right?ColeI spoke with Gloria Lucas for the book, who’s an educator who’s doing some really interesting work in this area. She works with a lot of indigenous people who have a real connection of their body to the land. Their body is the land, the land is their body. She said, “how can anyone recover until they give the land back?” I thought, oh shit. VirginiaThat’s not something we can sort out in our treatment protocols. It shows the need for systemic change here. It’s not just people’s personal work to do.ColeExactly. So we have to parse out what is the personal work that I can do? How can I kind of cobble this together? And you do, unfortunately, have to cobble this together. Because even if a person speaks to their general physician, that person may not know how to refer them or what what is the best treatment for them. So you have to piece this together yourself and know that there are a lot of systemic elements here that may not shift anytime soon.VirginiaYou have a lot of examples in the book of these moments in therapy where it’s just so clear that the treatment is not serving you or really anyone. There was one anecdote of the therapist who told you that when the need to purge arose, you should just journal or do a crossword puzzle. And you were like, Have you ever purged?I’d love to talk about some other examples of this one-size-fits-no-one advice and how that also becomes such a barrier to recovery for people.ColeI mean, one-size-fits-no-one is the perfect way to put it because I cannot imagine any actual human who could benefit from some of this guidance. It shows a profound lack of understanding of the disorder and I think that’s also why so many people who have suffered from eating disorders may go into the field of treatment because they actually understand what someone is going through.I think another not helpful and I would go so far as to say harmful piece of therapy was a sort of exposure therapy where the therapist wanted me to begin to include foods in my diet that I had previously restricted.Now, that is not a bad idea.VirginiaIt’s the goal ultimately. ColeRight. I think it’s important to have a diet where you can eat anything and you’ll choose what you like and don’t like, right? You don’t have to eat everything, but you can.So, she would give me assignments like “eat a food this week that you previously restricted.” Now, it was, I think, way too early in my recovery. Especially cognitive behavioral therapy, which did help me in many, many ways I do want to say, but there is a real textbook. This is a 20 week program. This is what we do week one, this is what we do week two, and there is no real attempt made to understand the individual because that’s not even what they’re trying to do. They want to change your behaviors using this way. I just envision that being studied for a population of people and not looking at individuals.So she would ask, “what’s something you never ate?” “Well, pancakes.” “Okay, so this week, eat pancakes.” Well, I don’t think I was ready to eat pancakes.And if we had talked a little bit more, just her getting to know me, Cole, and my behaviors, maybe she would have seen that and said, “let’s do that next year instead of week six or whatever,” right? Because then you’re white knuckling your way through the assignments And of course, many, many people with eating disorders do have black and white thinking, very rigid thinking. I went into treatment, really wanting to get an A+ so I was going to do every single thing she told me, whether it felt right or not, because I was still very sick. But it felt like a force feeding and it felt really violating. At the time, I went along with these things because I didn’t trust myself. And I shouldn’t have trusted myself, right? Because I had gone a very long time making very harmful choices. But there is somewhere in there where you also feel heard. Instead, I really felt like I have no agency. I’m kind of choosing to hand this over, because obviously I’m making harmful decisions. I want to get better, A+ to me for even wanting that, and I’ll do whatever you tell me.VirginiaI mean the parallels there to diet culture are so strong, right? Like, I can’t trust myself, I have to follow somebody else, I have to follow this program perfectly. If I don’t follow it perfectly and it doesn’t work, it’s my fault. That’s what diets teach us. So that’s disturbing when this is supposed to have the opposite goal.ColeI empathize with the clinicians sometimes, even the ones that give us advice that’s not helpful or that can even be harmful. Because eating disorders are so complex. For many people there is a neurological underpinning here that doesn’t explain the entire eating disorder, but explains part of it. I did not get hungry, I needed to be told when to eat. I still do that. I need to sometimes treat food like medicine, like, “you have to eat a yogurt right now. You’re not even remotely hungry, just eat it because you’re crashing right now.” So it’s difficult to understand that, while also understanding that someone may have grown up a certain way, where they treat food a certain way, maybe they had food scarcity, maybe they had a mother who always dieted.There are just so many factors in why these eating disorders manifest the way they do. And it can be different for every person, but the therapy does not usually approach eating disorders in that way.VirginiaRight. We have multiple diagnoses, but we still have this kind of catch-all approach. Like, we don’t really know what category you are. So we’ll lump you over here, in this diagnosis. And obviously, that’s doing such a disservice. Even within within a category like anorexia or bulimia, there’s going to be so many different versions of that. So to have the therapy be this kind of cookie cutter approach… and I don’t even know if classifying it as subtypes would be helpful or just like further stigmatizing, honestly. But at least, meet people where they are. And when it’s time to eat the pancakes, put the emotional support in place to help you eat the pancakes instead of just making it a homework assignment.ColeRight, and weight being still such a factor throughout. We’re hearing more backlash against the diagnosis of atypical anorexia, a diagnosis which still drives me crazy. And when I went into therapy for the first time, I was not weighed or medically checked or recommended to go to a doctor. I was very, very, very thin but I did not look like someone who could be cast in a movie about anorexia. So that made me wonder, Oh, am I not that sick? Am I not thin enough to be that sick? And and this was before the atypical anorexia classification emerged, when I was in treatment. But you can’t look at weight and we know that now. Like, we can’t look at weight as any indicator of whether someone is ill or not. But that is still a metric.VirginiaThe whole atypical anorexia thing is a nightmare. I mean, there’s nothing atypical about it. It’s most of the people with anorexia. ColeIt’s infuriating. VirginiaThat stereotype is so harmful. I’ve interviewed folks who’ve talked about eating disorder therapists trying to be reassuring and being like, “I won’t let you gain that much weight.” So the way weight is sort of handled throughout the recovery process is also pretty fraught.ColeAnd is the idea of weight restoration correlated with BMI? Yes, it is. We don’t have to pivot to a BMI conversation, because you have those banked, but if that’s the definition of weight restoration, that’s problematic.VirginiaCan you define what weight restoration is? We might not be as familiar with that term.ColeRight, of course. So if a person comes into treatment, when a doctor is thinking about how do we restore them to a “normal,” “healthy” weight, where do they go for that information? The BMI chart. I have heard people who when they get to a certain weight in a residential treatment, they are told they can now go back to restricting their food a certain way or you can return to exercise. Often people are not permitted to exercise if they are at a low weight.And again, if someone has the same behaviors, but is in a larger body, I was told by people I spoke with in the book that they are told they can exercise because they’re in a larger body.VirginiaIt’s just wild. And we’ll link to a very good piece about atypical anorexia for anyone who needs to learn more about that whole conversation. Folks who come in bigger bodies are less likely to get diagnosed in the first place. They’re often sicker when they finally get to treatment. And then, yes, the behaviors are not taken as seriously or they’re even like, well, we don’t want you to gain too much, like that kind of narrative around their weight restoration as opposed to what do we need to get you back to. ColeAnd the classifications are tricky, because there’s the catch-all for everyone who doesn’t fall into anorexia, atypical anorexia, bulimia, binge eating, purging. There’s a catch-all for those people who don’t meet all of the dynamic diagnostic criteria to fall into one. Most of the people who show up in community clinics for eating disorders are in that catch-all, so that tells us something. I mean, the catch-all is exasperating but good because someone could maybe get insurance.VirginiaRight, you can get some treatment covered. ColeHahaha. As if, but maybe! VirginiaIn theory.ColeIn some universe. On paper.VirginiaIn a European country, perhaps.ColeIf you are in Norway. Those criteria are necessary, and maybe helpful for some people, but they also show us how off we are as a scientific community, and as a medical community, in understanding eating disorders, the fact that there’s this “and everyone else” category. Virginia“We don’t know, you seem sick.” It’s maddening. It’s so reductive and overly simplifying people’s struggles.We also need to talk about the therapist who, as you say in the book, did legitimately help you in a lot of ways. And then later, when you got back in touch with her, you discovered she was consulting for a weight loss company. That’s a real record scratch moment for a lot of us. I don’t know that people understand how much of a revolving door there is between eating disorder treatment and weight loss management. ColeI wanted to be so careful with this because it not only makes me angry, but it breaks my heart. It really feels like a betrayal when you discover that not only someone maybe you worked with but other people in the field in high positions, in research treating patients or in relationships, sitting on the board of a diet company or working with a diet company. It’s crushing and I don’t understand it.That’s how I am as a human, but when I flip to the journalist part, I want to really hold myself to task for what I’m not seeing, because I went through this first person. So come on, what’s the reason that someone in an eating disorder field would form a relationship with a weight loss company? There’s got to be something I’m missing. And I don’t think there is.I think weight loss companies have a lot of money. Being an eating disorder clinician is a rough job, a lot of your patients do not get better. There is no standard of care. If you are in this field, it’s because I believe—I want to believe, I have to believe—you care about people suffering from these disorders that you understand. So those people are not people who are, like, trying to make fast cash. So, I’m trying to navigate in my own head why there’s crossover because there’s so much crossover.Weight loss companies have booths at eating disorder conferences. Noom is in the eating disorder game. They’re doing a ton of research, they have grants, they are creating programs to treat binge eating disorder. Some of those programs look a lot like weight loss apps, but have maybe therapy combined with the weight loss apps. It’s still this weight loss centered model. Many people I spoke with who use weight loss apps also said it re-triggered an eating disorder for them. These weight loss apps are very dangerous. Potentially very dangerous, no very dangerous. I can say that. And the eating disorder crossover, if one wants to be cynical about it —one researcher I spoke with said, “they are creating a customer base.”VirginiaI mean, that’s where I go. ColeAnd when that researcher said it, I said, “Well you said it, I’m just writing it down.” VirginiaI also think from the weight loss company’s perspective, it makes total sense because the thing they are always criticized for is that they are promoting disordered eating. So, if they can say “no, no, we’re treating eating disorders,” that’s like their solution to what is a PR nightmare. I remember reporting a story on Kurbo, which was Weight Watchers’ weight loss app for kids. And their spokespeople were very much like, no, no, this is preventing eating disorders because we’re helping people do family meals and have schedules and regular snacks. And the fact that we have a list of red foods you’re not supposed to eat that includes avocados and bagels is like, what, don’t worry about that. A lot of it, from the industry’s perspective, makes sense to me.ColeAnd it doesn’t mean it’s not out there, but I haven’t seen a lot of weight loss sponsored research on anorexia. VirginiaThere was that wild study I cited it in my first book, the subject was something like lessons obesity treatment can learn from anorexia.ColeI mean, I guess what I’m saying is that none of these weight loss brands are trying to treat anorexia. All of those studies that companies are doing, that is still not even thinly veiled obesity treatment.VirginiaOh, because they’re like, “we’re solving binge eating disorder.”Cole“We’re solving binge eating because we’ve got all these people that are using our app and losing weight, maybe for six months. We don’t talk to anybody after. Bye!”So it’s all under that same umbrella of getting people smaller. And it still implies that people with binge eating disorder would be larger bodies out, of control, can’t stop eating. It doesn’t address anything underlying.VirginiaRight. It just assumes that the binge is the whole problem and if you can solve that by teaching them restriction, how could that ever backfire? How could that ever go wrong?ColeAnd a lot of these programs have food logs and calories. It’s still the same thing and I’m not sure it can really help anybody.VirginiaNo. The other thing I’m thinking, hearing you talk about what is the motivation on the therapist side, I think it’s the underlying anti-fat bias, right? It’s the thinking that if we can just make everyone thin or “normal” weight, then we won’t have to worry about all of this. Like, if we can just find that solution, then our problems go away. ColeAbsolutely. And even in not just the more nefarious weight loss companies doing research in the eating disorder field, you see a lot of these university affiliated centers for eating disorders and obesity, right? You see that title everywhere. I mean, that was one thing when I was researching my book, I did not want to interview anyone that was connected with a center that is “treating obesity” the way you treat eating disorders. I mean, that, to me, I find so offensive. VirginiaYeah, that’s the study of what can we learn from anorexia to solve the obesity crisis? Where you’re just like, what are you doing? How did we lose the plot? ColeExactly. We lost the thread here, guys. Get it back. VirginiaLife-threatening mental illness is not the solution.ColeI still don’t understand. I mean, I do understand, of course, but it’s just very disheartening when you see the eating disorder numbers. There was a line from your book, I keep thinking of over and over again, this idea of to make a cake, you got to break a few eggs.VirginiaAnd also, don’t let your kids eat cake. ColeAnd also, don’t let your kids eat cake. VirginiaThat is the mindset for sure.ColeThere’s this idea that at least people with eating disorders are controlling what they eat.VirginiaIt’s considered the lesser evil, instead of being understood for the immediate, urgent threat that it is to somebody’s health. If you are concerned about kids’ future health, if you’re concerned about their metabolic health down the road or their heart health down the road, preventing the eating disorder is a good thing to do. Eating disorders are not great for heart health and metabolic health. So maybe that’s step one, before you get all in a lather about type two diabetes. Just a thought, just a thought. ColePeople with eating disorders are at an elevated risk to attempt suicide. I mean, there are things that have nothing to do with body that people with this mental illness are at a higher risk for. And we don’t think about that as much as much either, but it’s an important part of the conversation.VirginiaThat’s really the lie on the whole “well it’s all about health” argument for the war on obesity. If it was all about health, this would be the more urgent matter in front of you. I mean, there’s no question.ButterVirginiaWe wrap up Burnt Toast with our butter segment. Do you have a recommendation for us?ColeOkay. Tom Wambsgans on Succession. Everyone is so unhinged on that show and I just really am enjoying that. I’m here for all of it. But I’m also loving the work of this artist. I discovered her through reading a piece in New York Magazine. I don’t want people to think I understand art! Madeline Donahue, she does these beautiful paintings about motherhood and sort of all the tender tumult of motherhood. Which I think is my real butter, which is human contact right now. I want to just touch my friends and snuggle my son. That just is my real answer. Human contact is my butter at the moment.VirginiaYeah, thats a great answer, but I’m excited to check out her work as well. I’m actually going to do an art recommendation, too.ColeHow fancy!VirginiaMy butter this week is Lindsey Guile who is an amazing body liberation feminist artist who I’ve just started to get to know. She’s also in the Hudson Valley and she had this incredible exhibit and our local art center and it is, I’m not kidding, like eight foot tall charcoal drawings of beautiful, naked, fat women and they are exquisite.ColeAmazing! VirginiaI’m just obsessed with her. She’s got a great Instagram where you can see her work. She draws bodies in the most incredible way and she’s also delightful and a wonderful human being. So, excited to shout out two amazing artists and, of course, the train wreck that is Succession. So good. I love it. Cole, thank you so much for doing this. This was so delightful!ColeThank you so much for having me and for what you’re doing here with this podcast and Burnt Toast. I think it really is building the solution. It’s the only way to do it to talk about it and grab more people into it.VirginiaThank you. I really appreciate that. Tell folks where we can find you follow you and how to support your work.ColeOh, thank you so much. I’m on Instagram and my website is my name. My book can be purchased wherever books are sold, but especially at your local indie bookstore!Read WHAT'S EATING US

Today Virginia is chatting with fat rights advocate Tigress Osborn. Tigress is Chair of the Board of NAAFA, The National Association to Advance Fat Acceptance, and helping to lead the Campaign for Size Freedom, which just scored a huge victory in New York City and there is more to come. Remember, if you order books we mention in today's pod from the Burnt Toast Bookshop, you can get 10 percent off that purchase if you also order (or have already ordered!) Fat Talk! (Just use the code FATTALK at checkout.)If you want more conversations like this one, please rate and review us in your podcast player! And become a paid Burnt Toast subscriber to get all of Virginia's reporting and bonus subscriber-only episodes. Disclaimer: Virginia is a journalist and human with a lot of informed opinions. Virginia is not a nutritionist, therapist, doctor, or any kind of health care provider. The conversation you're about to hear and all of the advice and opinions she gives are just for entertainment, information, and education purposes only. None of this is a substitute for individual medical or mental health advice.BUTTER & OTHER LINKSCampaign for Size FreedomNAAFA FLAREPHX Fat Force Smith College magazine profile of TigressClothestimeThe Overweight Lovers In The House & Heavy DDante Earle Tubbs from Contrast PhotosThe Crown ActTipping the Scales of Justice: Fighting Weight Based DiscriminationVirginia's piece for Slate in 2021International Weight Stigma ConferenceLast year Burnt Toast worked with The States Projectgive to NAAFAthe Association for Size Diversity And HealthNOLOSEsign the petitionWondermineBlack Fae Day@IoftheTigress.FAT TALK is out! Order your signed copy from Virginia's favorite independent bookstore, Split Rock Books (they ship anywhere in the US!). Or order it from your independent bookstore, or from Barnes & Noble, Amazon, Target, or Kobo or anywhere else you like to buy books. You can also order the audio book from Libro.fm or Audible.CREDITSThe Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith. Follow Virginia on Instagram or Twitter. Burnt Toast transcripts and essays are edited and formatted by Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, an Instagram account where you can buy and sell plus size clothing. The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe. Our theme music is by Jeff Bailey and Chris Maxwell. Tommy Harron is our audio engineer. Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!Episode 94 TranscriptTigressSo I am the chair of NAAFA, which is the National Association to Advance Fat Acceptance and I have been the chair since the beginning of 2021 and on the board for several years before that. But I actually started my life as a public figure of fat visibility and fat activism as a nightclub promoter in Oakland, where I created an event called Full Figure Fridays. So I’ve been doing some form of fat activism since about 2008.VirginiaAs I was prepping for our conversation, I read the profile on you that ran in the Smith College magazine. Burnt Toast’s own Corinne Fay went to Smith, my sister went to Smith and another friend of mine—so I had multiple people sending me that, like, look at Tigress on the cover!TigressLook at this fat lady on this magazine!VirginiaThey knew I would be overjoyed and I was. There was one quote I really loved in the piece where you said, “My aunts were the Lizzos of my neighborhood, but they still talked about how they should be on SlimFast.” Tell us a little bit about how you grew up understanding fatness.TigressI’m from a mixed race family and I had fat aunts on both sides of my family. My Black aunts were confident and were sexy and wore tight dresses and got dressed up to do fancy things and go out. My fat aunts on the other side of the family and the other people on the other side of my family who were fat or thought of themselves as fat didn’t have that same boldness. And I really received that as a racial difference.But I think we ended up with that quote in the magazine was because I was talking to the reporter about people’s perception that Black women have it easy when it comes to body image. I definitely saw a racial difference in my family, but I also still saw my aunts thinking that they were supposed to lose weight. I still saw other people talking about their bodies. As a smaller kid, I was a slim. Then puberty came around. My biology kicked in and I was a teenager who was curvy. I probably wasn’t even officially plus-sized until I was a late teenager, but I remember having a difficult time finding clothes for my graduation because we’d been advised to wear white under our gowns and finding something white and plus size in the limited stores that were available… I was a teenager before Torrid. There was none of this “just go to Torrid.”There was a store here called Stewart’s Plus and it was the trendiest of 90’s fashion, like bright prints and bright colors and stuff like that. It was the closest thing I could get to a teenager look because Lane Bryant, back then especially, was really matronly. Everybody else was going to Clothestime to buy their Guess jeans or whatever.And I was one of those teenagers who had subscriptions to all of the teen girl magazines. Those magazines were for me what Instagram and Tiktok are for teenagers today. Like, where you see the body standards that you are supposed to aspire to, where you’re told how to be beautiful, how you’re supposed to be as a girl or as a young lady. But they weren’t like Instagram and Tiktok in that they didn’t have also a vein of alternatives to that, right? In Seventeen magazine, the person who was supposed to be like the person who looks like me as a young Black girl is Whitney Houston. I don’t look like Whitney.VirginiaThat’s a realistic standard for one to aspire to.TigressExactly. So I grew up with all the messages from the culture—I’m an early MTV kid, I was really into really into music videos, I watched music videos any chance I had to watch them. And you didn’t see curvy people, let alone actually fat people, in music videos, except for a handful of men.I was thinking the other day about how much I love the rapper Heavy D when I was a teenager. One of the only places where I will allow the term ‘overweight’ is his song The Overweight Lovers In The House. So I had a burgeoning identity as a fat girl, not just in a sort of this-is-a-way-I’m-an-outsider or this-is-a-way-I-don’t-fit-in kind of way. I remember trying to write something for one of my teen magazines that I was going to send to them about how important it was for me to see the fat boys, to see that you could be cool even though you were fat.VirginiaWhy can’t we see fat girls, too?TigressYeah, it never occurred to me to be like, “where are the fat girls?” The only fat person was Oprah and her whole little red wagon thing was when I was in 8th or 9th grade.VirginiaShe’s fat but she’s actively, determinedly, pursuing not-fatness.TigressI remember as a late teenager I discovered BBW Magazine, Big Beautiful Woman magazine. I can remember my aunt being like, “Oh, these are fat ladies who aren’t really fat because they’re fancy.”VirginiaThese are Fancy Fat Ladies.TigressBecause they had access to a completely different kind of clothes, because they are fashion models. As limited as that was, a magazine has access to different clothes than we had access to in small town Arizona. VirginiaYeah, and they can shoot you in a dress that doesn’t zip up in the back and it looks like it fits from the front. There’s this whole smoke and mirrors piece of it that they can manipulate. TigressYeah, all of that, but it was really meaningful to me to start to see. I can remember the expansion of print magazines in my early 20s because there was BBW. There was one called Grace, then there was there was a Black fat positive magazine called Bell. VirginiaYeah, I remember Grace and Bell. TigressI remember seeing that when I moved to California and I was in an area where there were more Black folks, then there were more Black magazines available to me. When I grew up, where I grew up, it was Essence and Jet only. Essence might have someone a little larger in it from time to time back then, but there wasn’t regular plus-size representation when I was a teenager in those magazines. And of course, Jet Magazine had the Jet Beauty of the Week that was like, a woman in a swimsuit. I remember them as being curvier than some of the women I saw in other magazines, but they were not arguably fat, right? VirginiaWhen you talked about your aunts still on the SlimFast, and still struggling in that way, even though they were also representing to you this joy in fatness that you weren’t seeing from your white relatives—do you think that the way Black magazines were portraying Black bodies at the time was a factor in that? Or where do you think that came from?TigressI think there sometimes are actually cultural differences around what body types are accepted. I think a lot of it was male gaze kind of stuff. Like, “men still find me attractive.” And there was a kind of creativity and community-mindedness around finding clothes or making clothes that was different. My community was a community of Black folks who love to show out. So when you have to show out, you’re going to find or make some clothes. You’re not going to just settle for whatever the clothes are available to you, if that’s limited. And so there was partly that. I think there were personality differences, there was cultural difference. It wasn’t all racial, but as a kid, I definitely received it as racial.As an adult, I can see more nuance. I can see all the ways that even if there is some community protection around body image, there is still body shaming and you’re still ingesting the messages of the regular culture.I was trying to explain to a Gen Z colleague, upon the passing of Sir Jerry Springer, what it was really like to be coming of age in the era of daytime talk shows and how much of that was very specifically body shaming. They would have these episodes all the time that were like, “Too Fat For That!” The Too Fat For That episode was the one where your BFF comes on with you to try to get the world to help save you from yourself, because you are wearing biker shorts and cut-off tops. “Just because they make it in your size or you can stretch it to your size doesn’t mean you should wear it in your size, girlfriend.” I think my aunts were somewhere along that spectrum of like, well, maybe I will wear these biker shorts or maybe I would be the friend who’s on TV telling her, girl, you shouldn’t be wearing that. I think the magazines were reflective of the culture, but also reflective of respectability politics. Respectability politics allow for a certain kind of fat, they allow for the church ladies to be fat, but there’s still all this stuff about appetite and control and what’s ladylike. So, I think it’s just a mixed bag across the culture and shows up in some really racialized ways and gets experienced in some really racialized ways. Whatever you’re getting in your home culture, you still have to participate in the mainstream culture, right? Because unless you go to an HBCU, you go to a predominantly white college. Unless you start or work for a Black-owned company, you are working for and with white folks. There are some protective elements around community standards or different beauty ideals, but you still have to operate in the whole rest of the world. Weight Watchers is still just dominating daytime television commercials and Oprah with her little red wagon and People Magazine every time you go to the grocery store with the “I lost 100 pounds and I’m half of myself.” All of that stuff is still there. And that was still there for me, even though I have these aunts who were just really glamorous and amazing to me.The folks that stand out to me the most from my younger childhood as glamorous were fat women—including one of my mom’s friends who was not a Black woman and who had this cloud of Miss Piggy hair. She just reminded me of Miss Piggy and she was an Avon lady so she always had the makeup. And my Aunt Linda is still doing it, with her and her wigs and her all things, outshining everybody when she shows up at a barbecue. I don’t know how much of that is just personality. I don’t know how much of it is despite being fat or how much of it is because of being fat. Like, “I better make sure I’m the best dressed and the best makeup and the best hair and the best everything else because I don’t have the body everybody thinks I’m supposed to have.”VirginiaYeah, there’s a little bit of the Good Fatty, maybe.TigressI think so.Virginia“I need to perform this in a certain way.” But it also sounds like it gives them a lot of joy.TigressAnd it gave me a lot of joy! But I was still very clear, especially as a teenager, that if you have a choice, you shouldn’t be fat. And if you have enough willpower you do have a choice. VirginiaOf course, that’s how bodies work. TigressI was in that sort of infomercial era of my early teen years my early years at Smith where the sort of like Richard Simmons Deal-A-Meal era and the Susan Powter Stop the Insanity era. Do you remember her? Everybody remembers Richard Simmons probably.VirginiaI think that’s safe to assume. Or if not: Children, Google your history.TigressLearn who Richard Simmons is. He is very important to our cultural understanding of bodies. I’m not even exaggerating, like, Richard Simmons is very important to our cultural understanding of bodies. But Susan Powter pitched herself as a feminist and was loud and unapologetic and had long nails and makeup and red lipstick and this platinum buzz cut haircut. She wouldn’t be exercising in stilettos, but she was posed in stilettos. She was an “it’s okay to be sexy” feminist. There were many things I loved about her message but she was always on these infomercials screaming about how dieting is insanity, stop the insanity! Here, buy all of my diet my exercise videos because they are the only ones that are not insanity.VirginiaJust starting to head in the right direction and then doubling back.TigressLooking back at some of that 80’s and 90’s super diet-y or intended to be anti-fat stuff, I think there’s a sort of rebellious read on it. Richard Simmons videos were the places of highest fat visibility for me outside of my own family and neighborhood. I could see fat people dressed in bright, colorful, fun clothes, dancing and sweating to the oldies as a dance party. My favorite part of those videos when I was in my late teens and early 20s was the part at the end where it’s almost like a soul train line and everyone dances down and then they put up the numbers of how much weight they lost. If you remove those numbers, that’s some of the best fat joy exploration! I think you could reclaim that stuff by by sweating to the oldies for 50 cents on the DVD at your local thrift store. You’re not supporting diet culture, but you can have a subversive read.VirginiaThere definitely needs to be a deep dive into this, because Richard Simmons was certainly making some deliberate choices in casting his videos in that way. In not just showing all the thin aerobics models. But then, of course, pairing it with the weight loss message.TigressExactly. It’s really an example of how everything came at me at that era of my life. I think I’m watching this at the end for the weight loss inspo, but really what I end up remembering about it 20 years later, is just how much fun those people looked like they were having and how they were getting in shape regardless of whether they had those numbers to put up. But they wouldn’t have been in that video if they didn’t have those numbers to put up, so that’s where the it takes the turn.VirginiaBut, they were in their bodies. They were joyful in their bodies. TigressSo in the midst of all this, I did learn about NAAFA when I was in my first year at Smith because we had this early 1990s campus diversity day called Otelia Cromwell Day. It was named after the first Black Smith grad. And in the spread of workshops, there was stuff about race, there was stuff about gender, and there was a workshop by Carrie Hemenway who worked in the Career Development Office at Smith, that was called something like “Large-Bodied Women.” She was an active member of the Boston chapter of NAAFA. Back in those days, NAAFA had chapters in major cities. Now we’re more virtually based, but Carrie was really active in the Boston chapter and did this workshop at this women’s college in the early 90s.This would have been the fall of 1992, so long before #bodypositivity or anything like that. That was where I learned about NAAFA and I didn’t get involved directly in NAAFA until years later, but just the idea that there is an organization that exists. That was first time I’d heard the idea of just using fat in a positive way. Like, what we were talking about earlier about my aunts and stuff—you still called those ladies full-figured or big-boned. You didn’t call them fat. Even if you were somebody who loved fat women, you still didn’t say that, at least in the circles around that were around me. So that idea, that was where I was introduced to the idea that you could just use fat as a descriptor or even as a positive identifier. And I’ve never forgotten that. Just knowing NAAFA was out there in the world doing something different than what Richard Simmons and Susan Powter were doing when it came to fat people was so empowering to me. I remember one of my friends going home for fall break and trying to explain to her mom that she wasn’t going to diet anymore because it was okay to be fat. I don’t remember her mom’s reaction either, but I just remember us planning that conversation on the bus on the way home, because it was going to be this groundbreaking new approach.VirginiaYeah, and unfortunately it still feels too groundbreaking, right? TigressIt always feels like one step forward, two steps back. Sometimes it feels like one giant leap for humankind and then a bouncy house of bouncing back from that leap.VirginiaThat bouncy house image is very much how I feel at the moment. TigressOh, I bet. I can’t even imagine what is coming at you. People are so mad at fat people for daring to be. Like, how dare you be? You’re inconveniencing me by being. It’s the level of vitriol directed at people because they have the nerve to stay fat and not be constantly trying to apologize to the world and demonstrate that apology through actively dying and—actively dieting. Well, actively dying, that might not have been a slip. That is actually often also true in terms of what diet culture expects of us. There’s a perception that we’re dying because we’re fat and there’s just not enough discussion about how the things we’re doing trying to not be fat are actually the things that are killing us. But people get really mad.NAAFA is supporting fat rights legislation all over the country and I wandered into the comments on one of the New York Times articles about this. The article itself was already framed too much as a like, should they exist or not? And can legislation help allow fat people to exist? I mean, overall, there were lots of great points in the article and I’m grateful that the New York Times is even talking about this issue. But also: Please don’t start the fat rights article with an anecdote about the founder of Weight Watchers. Like, I don’t know, just don’t. But the article itself is for a mainstream news outlet, at least it’s highlighting some fat points. And then I wandered into the comment section, and I was like, “Oh, right.”VirginiaHere we are in the dumpster. TigressWe are not even in the dumpster. We’re in the mud underneath the dumpster.VirginiaThat oozy material.TigressThat’s right. When the dumpster has been so bad that it rusted out the bottom and underneath there is sludge. That’s where we are. We can’t even see the light from the top of the dumpster. Sometimes the worst is the people who think they’re most helpful. I got one letter from this woman who was mad about the magazine cover, because—for people who haven’t seen the magazine cover, it’s me in a tight dress with all my back rolls out.VirginiaIt’s fantastic, it’s beautiful.TigressThank you so much, shout out to my photographer, Dante Earle Tubbs from Contrast Photos in Arizona. It is a gorgeous photo and I have no shame in having my fat vanity and saying that is a gorgeous photo. And, she pulled this quote that I never could have imagined would be on the cover of a magazine about how the world should be prepared for fat people to be audacious because we’re not going to stay in the shadows, in the corners, anymore.VirginiaIt’s amazing!TigressAnd so, some people, both in positive and negative ways, just reacted to the cover without reading any of the rest of the magazine.VirginiaMost of the sludge under the dumpster has not read. They’re not reading.TigressThat’s right. “What! Fat people and audacity? Let me have my thindacity and contact them to tell them how they’re gonna die.”So this lady writes to me—well, she had clearly written this to the editor of the magazine, but just wanted to make sure NAAFA didn’t miss it so sent a copy directly to us. And it was just like, “I’m a retired ophthalmologist and Tigress and Lizzo would not fit in my exam chair.” Well, first of all, lady, I’m wearing glasses in some of the pictures. So clearly, I’ve been to an opthamologist. That’s not really the point. But also kind of the point.VirginiaMaybe have better exam chairs? That sounds like a you problem..TigressTalk about audacity! You have the audacity to write to a civil rights organization and say, “I am fully admitting that my office was inaccessible to people and that’s their fault and they’re going die?” Because she did the whole “and if they ever had to have eye surgery, their eyes would explode.” “And if, in fact, they had to have any surgery, they’d be more likely to die.” And then she closed on, “I don’t think fat people should be discriminated against, but I pity them.”Well, first of all, you clearly do think we should be discriminated against because you didn’t do anything about that exam chair in your office while you had a whole career. But also, you reached out to a stranger to tell them that you think they’re gonna die and then you patted yourself on the back for being smarter than them. I guess that’s not legal discrimination. We can’t legislate against you. We can legislate against that problematic chair. VirginiaFor sure.TigressWe can’t legislate against you just having this attitude, but you don’t get to tell yourself that you’re not discriminatory. You don’t get to say, “I’m not a bigot, but I just pity these fat people and had to tell you that I pity you.” You’re not being the bigger person here. I’m the bigger person, literally and figuratively, because you failed at being a bigger person, if that’s what you thought you were doing. Because that’s just a put-you-in-your-place letter. That is not a concern for your health letter. That was not like, here’s a list of optometrists near you that might have a chair that can accommodate you because I care about your eyesight, right? It’s none of that. It’s just a holier than thou expression of dismay that you have the nerve to live.VirginiaSo, let’s talk about the legislation piece of things, because this is really exciting work you all are doing. Tell us about the Campaign for Size Freedom.TigressSo the campaign for size freedom was founded by NAAFA and FLARE. FLARE is the Fat Legal Advocacy Rights and Education Project, which is a project with the law office of Brandie Solovay and was started by Sondra Solovay, who’s one of the icons, and has been the voice of common sense and good legal sense around anti-fat discrimination for for many, many years. So the FLARE project does all this really incredible work. We work with them all the time.We started the Campaign for Size Freedom with them to support passing more legislation that is related to protections around body size. And the project is supported also by Dove. So it’s really exciting in that way, in that it is really the largest corporate social responsibility investment in fat liberation, ever. There’s no record of anything like what Dove is showing up to do there. And, I know that there are a lot of folks in fat community who hear Dove and they kind of go, “hmm body positivity, they stole it.”VirginiaI did want to ask about this. I mean, they were definitely one of the first brands to embrace body diversity. But there’s a fair critique that they often co-opt the rhetoric.TigressI was literally in one of the protests campaigns about Dove in the mid-2000s. It was called Beyond Beauty. Dove launches their “Real Beauty” thing and then there was this Beyond Beauty photoshoot with all of these visibly fat, Black and brown people and visibly disabled people and just a variety of ages and identities and all that stuff. This is either a supplement to or in protest of the way that Dove is showing these images, even as they’re trying as much as you can expect capitalism to try. We want to always give credit to the folks who are genuinely trying and also hold accountable the folks who are trying and missing it. But I do think that Dove has come a long way.And, there’s still always going to be a segment of fat liberation community who are anti-capitalist and just don’t work with organizations like Dove, ever.VirginiaRight, the Green Peace of this movement. We need that voice as well.TigressWe need lots of different kinds of voices and lots of different kinds of approaches in the movement. And for us, we really, really vetted Dove. We really liked some of the work that Dove was doing, a lot of work around supporting The Crown Act. So when they showed up with us saying we want to support you around legislation, they didn’t show up as like, “we want to develop a stretch mark soap and so we need some fat consultation,” it wasn’t a thing like that.The Burnt Toast Podcast"The Way Our Hair Grows Out of Our Heads is a Problem for People."Virginia Sole-Smith and Sharon Hurley Hall·July 28, 2022Listen now (27 min) | I think it's important for people to recognize that no matter how fascinated you might be by a Black person’s hair, we are not an exhibit or curiosity. You're listening to Burnt Toast. This is the podcast about diet culture, fatphobia, parenting, and health. I’m Virginia Sole-Smith, and I also write theRead full storyIt was like, we are really looking at our corporate responsibility practices and this is a thing we’re seeing in the research. Because they do so much research around girls and self esteem and I think with an increasing awareness around expansive ideas about gender, but they’re still pretty centered in this “girls and women” language and space, but they’re working on it. We’re going to keep working on that. But they do so much research around girls and self esteem and they were just seeing more and more in their research about how much body oppression and size discrimination affects girls and their self esteem. And so they were like, what’s a thing we can do about this?And they have several campaigns that they’ve run that are looking at how kids see their bodies and highlighting how teenagers are affected by beauty standards and body standards. So the legislative piece is really important because their research was showing people are reporting all of this discrimination. Like, when we talk not just to the kids but also to the moms about how they live in their bodies, we’re seeing all of these things about discrimination in our research and we want to be part of the solution to that. So, I’m excited about the support from from Dove. And they’ve been very good about letting the fat people drive this.VirginiaI’m here for this.TigressNAAFA and FLARE really are out in the front of the project. And right now there is pending legislation in New York City that is super exciting because it’s about to pass which will make New York one of the most populous places on earth that has protections against height and weight discrimination. By the middle of this summer, we will have a law in New York.VirginiaI just got chills!TigressBut what a lot of people don’t know is just how rare that is. Because we have this sense as Americans that if somebody does something wrong to you, you can sue them. And you can, you can sue people, whether there’s explicit law protecting you or not, but your chances of being able to win when there’s not an actual law about the thing that you are trying to sue over becomes increasingly more difficult. Especially around an issue where there’s such cultural pervasiveness about people’s own attitudes. So Sondra wisely says in her book, we could be already treating fat people fairly under the law with other laws that exist just around general fairness, but we don’t apply those laws. The lawyers don’t know how to apply those laws, the judges don’t know how to apply those laws. Having the explicit protections helps.VirginiaI just want to quickly say Sondra’s book is Tipping the Scales of Justice: Fighting Weight Based Discrimination. It is an incredible resource for learning more about all of this.Shop the Burnt Toast Bookstore!TigressIt’s incredible resource and it’s also an incredible artifact of how slow this change has been because Sondra wrote that book in the the late 90’s and it’s really accurate still.VirginiaI did a piece for Slate in 2021 about how body size comes up in custody, states taking custody of children. I wrote about this in my book, too, and referred back to all the research she did on that in the book about BMI being a criteria. These were cases that were coming out in the early 2000s. And it is still happening, that BMI can be a reason to lose your children.TigressAbsolutely. A lot of people don’t people don’t know that, unless it happens to them or unless it becomes so sensational of a story that it hits the headlines. And when it hits the headlines, it’s really devastating. Not just for those families, but also for all kinds of other families who begin to be really, really afraid. That work is so important. Sondra’s work over the course of fat liberation, her whole career is so important, but also it is a shame for us as a culture that her book is still so contemporary. But that is part of what the Campaign for Size Freedom is trying to change.We’re trying to amplify the issue so that people understand this is a really serious civil rights issue. The list of where anti-fatness shows up in our social justice concerns is really short, right? When do people put it on the list as a social justice concern? That that happens very rarely. But the list of places that we care about social justice and anti-fatness shows up within that is a very, very long list because it’s basically every area where we care about social justice. If you care about racial justice, if you care about economic disparity, if you care about gender oppression, if you care about queer antagonism, if you care about issues about the carceral system, if you care about immigration, if you care about reproductive rights. If you feel like all of those are areas where anti-fatness shows up and adds an additional layer of oppression for people, an additional set of hurdles for people in everything from can you get fertility treatment to can you get a desk that fits you at the school you’re trying to attend?VirginiaCan you get an exam chair that fits you at the ophthalmologist?TigressAnd can you get people to care about that and see it as an issue that they should change things instead of an issue that you should change your body?But the tide is turning. Public opinion polls show that people are in favor of protective legislation. People are starting to recognize things as discrimination. I was at the International Weight Stigma Conference last year and one of the researchers there was presenting some research they were doing about asking people to self-assess whether they’d been discriminated against or not. What they found was, when you just asked fat people, “have you ever experienced discrimination because you’re fat?” Many of them will say no. But then when you start breaking down the questions: Have you ever experienced this in your workplace or that in the doctor’s office? Have you ever experienced this in your educational setting? Those same people who said no actually check a bunch of things that they are experiencing discrimination, they just haven’t thought of it that way.VirginiaIt’s kind of reminding me of the way the #MeToo conversation helped us understand what sexual harassment and sexual assault really are. Because for so long, we only had kind of like the movie version of these concepts. And realizing, like, oh, wait, actually your boss making this kind of comment. TigressThat’s right. VirginiaBut we miss the nuances of it, because we’ve been fed one narrative of what is okay.TigressI don’t want to overemphasize that parallel, but something else I see in that parallel is the blame the person that’s happening to dynamic. If your boss said something funky to you, well, you shouldn’t have worn that shirt to work, right? And it’s the same if your boss said something funky to you about your weight, well, you just shouldn’t have been fat and then that would have happened to you. And cultural attitudes around that are changing. Now there’s that under the dumpster sludge clash. There’s a loud voice, especially on the Internet, of how you’re gross and you’re going to die. But also, there’s so many more fat people and people of all sizes saying that’s just not true. And even if that’s what you think, what does that have to do with fat people having civil rights? The older I get, the less invested I am about whether I care what people think about what I look like in this body. It’s still there for me because that’s how pervasive it is. I’ve been doing fat liberation work in some way or another for 15 years and the voices are still there for me. So if you’re new to this of course you’re still going to struggle with it, right? It’s still tough, because we do still live in that SlimFast culture.I know you know Marilyn Wann because I’ve heard you talk about her on the pod. What I loved about Marilyn’s book when it came out was, again, just the existence of this reminds me of something. It is Fat! exclamation point, So? question mark. And that’s so  is really important and it’s really important in the work that we do at NAAFA now. Because when people say, like, you’re just a hater because you can’t lose weight. No, we’re not. And even if that were true, even if I’m just a lazy fat person who is mad at all the thin people because they’re thin and I’m not and I can’t wear your Kim Kardashian clothes or whatever—even if all of that is true, my employer should still have to pay me fairly.VirginiaRight.TigressMy doctor should still have medical equipment that allows me to get information I need about my health. All of these pieces that fall under this legal discrimination umbrella are all things that should not happen to fat people, regardless of what you think about our health or our attractiveness.VirginiaOr how much it’s our fault or that whole willpower conversation that’s really besides the point.TigressCompletely beside the point. There are some audiences where I just will refuse to talk about health. I lead a civil rights group. We can talk about health in so much as there are health disparities that are represented by anti-fatness and weight bias within the healthcare system. We can talk about that. But if you just want to talk about like, do I have high blood pressure? Not your business, not my employer’s business, not my landlord’s business. That’s my doctor’s business and my business and my momma’s business—and sometimes not even hers.That’s what the Campaign for Size Freedom is doing, it is lifting this conversation so that more people are aware that there are so few places in the world that have made it explicitly illegal to discriminate based on body size. In the United States, that list is really short. Michigan has a civil rights law. Washington State has it in part of disability law. And there are a handful of municipalities across the country with either appearance based discrimination law or civil rights law. And it is soon to be New York City. [Virginia’s note: The NYC bill passed right after we recorded this!]It is also hopefully soon to be New Jersey, New York at the state level, Massachusetts and Vermont, all of whom have pending legislation in the wake of New York City. And there’s at least one other state coming but we haven’t publicly talked about it yet. But there’s a non-coastal state coming. We’re not only doing this on the East Coast.Virginia We like the middle of the country states. TigressThat’s right. These East Coast places are places where it arose organically. In Massachusetts, this work has been being done for years. And I mean, like, 10-12 years ago, people like Sondra and people from NAAFA. Back then there was an organization called the Society for Short Statured Americans who was partnering with NAAFA. That organization doesn’t exists today, but we are partnering with Little People of America. People have been doing this work in Massachusetts for years. They’ve been making attempts at the state level in New York for years. But it’s brand new in New Jersey and Vermont, but it all rose organically there by either legislative leaders who looked around the world and said what’s missing from our civil rights laws? What can I take on here? Or by people listening to their constituents who brought issues to their offices. Now we are looking at the whole country and thinking about where do we want to push next? The dream is a federal civil rights law. VirginiaAbsolutely. TigressWe don’t think that in the current federal political culture that we can do that. And especially without having done it in several states. VirginiaYeah, you need to incubate it in a few states. Tigress I mean, we see that with the Crown Act. We saw that with marriage equality, we’ve seen this with other civil rights issues. VirginiaLet’s talk about what the Burnt Toast community can do. We are big supporters of state legislation being the seat of power and where things happen. Last year Burnt Toast worked with The States Project and we raised a ton of money for state government elections to turn some states blue—actually Arizona was our focus state! TigressThank you!VirginiaYeah, it was rough out there, but we did raise a bunch of money and had some key victories. This is something that the Burnt Toast community feels really passionate about. Obviously, this legislation is something we feel hugely passionate about. So, tell us where you need us.TigressYou can follow NAAFA and follow the Campaign for Size Freedom, the hashtag we’re using is #sizefreedom. You can like and comment and reshare and all the things that help boost the signal. If you have money to give, you can give to NAAFA. We are a 501(c)(3) charity. Even though we have this investment and support coming from Dove, we are still an under resourced and understaffed organization, as is all of fat liberation.Donate to NAAFA!If this is an issue you care about and if NAAFA is not the right organization for you—if we’re too moderate, we’re too conservative, we’re too focused on legislation and you care about other things—there are other fat organizations that you can give to. ASDAH, the Association for Size Diversity And Health, they are the Health at Every Size people and they are also now the examining Health at Every Size to see if that’s even the right framework anymore. Super radical work happening at ASDAH, Black led, queer led radical work.Donate to ASDAH!And in the health care space, NOLOSE is also a 501(c)(3). So if you care about that, if you care about the tax receipt. NOLOSE is a queer-centered fat liberation organization.Donate to NOLOSEBut also, you can give money to the folks who aren’t going to have a tax receipt for you but are doing mutual aid in the community, are doing really important activism in the community. Look around your own local communities and see where you can put some dollars into fat things, if you have dollars to give.Whether you have monetary contributions you can make or not, you can sign the petition on our website. And if you sign the petition there, the reason we’re asking for your address is so that if we start doing work in your area we can get in touch with you directly. You can get on our main mailing list to just get other updates about other work. We’re an advocacy organization, we’re not a lobbying organization. There’s all kinds of other work we’re still trying to do. We run a pretty robust program of virtual events so that folks can get to us online and get to each other online for everything from education to joy. August is fat liberation month, so we’ll have even more programming during fat liberation month. And: If you’re still working on using the word fat, keep working on it. It is good for you, it is good for folks around you. And it’s a sort of bat signal to other fat people of whether you have some politics around this. I live in Arizona, there’s all kinds of fat people here. But there’s not all kinds of fat community here because the amount of folks who have a fat liberation framework is not the same as the number of fat people who exist here, right? Finding each other in your local community can be hard. And it is one of the best things, as much as the Internet can be toxic, it is one of the best things about the internet, finding your own. And if you’re local to me, hit me up in my DMs! We can plan some fatty rabble rousing in the Phoenix area.But, give your time, give your energy, give your money, give your platform. Those are the things that people can do. When you can’t physically give your energy, send vibes, good vibes. We take all the good fat vibes.VirginiaWell, this platform is always available to you. So please let us know when there’s a specific thing on the docket and you’re like, “I need a lot of people to sign this petition, I need a lot of people to call representatives.” We are here for it. TigressAnd do that you get in touch with your representatives after they vote for these things, because we want we want to keep those kinds of people in office. We want to keep them knowing that this is a community issue. We want to expand the bills, expand the regulations in places where they’re not protective enough or next time the fight comes back around. The New York City Law is incredible. It will be life changing to people and it is limited to housing, employment, and public accommodation. So there are still other spaces that it’s not taking on.When we do the next round to cover those spaces, we want the people who supported us on this round to know that we paid attention to that. And we want people who didn’t support us on this round to know that we paid attention, too. So don’t just write the pressure letters, write the follow up thank you. Those are really important.VirginiaThat’s so smart.ButterVirginiaAlright, Tigress, what is your Butter today?TigressMy butter today is I’m really loving watching Midnight Diner on Netflix. It’s it’s not new. It’s a Japanese. It’s a half an hour Japanese serial. It’s a little bit soap opera-ish. I’m just really, really loving that as my bedtime story every night. I’m relatively new to podcast world, so I really am loving Wondermine, which is a podcast about about joy and community. Those are two of my favorite things lately.VirginiaThat is wonderful. Mine this week is that Somebody Somwhere is back for season two. I don’t know if you watched, Bridget Everett is a treasure, just a treasure.TigressI watched the first season and I didn’t know it was coming back. Right now I’m just kind of head down, catching up on some work things so I’m only watching Midnight Diner at night and then listening to all of my fat podcasts. But, the second season, I can’t wait. Have you started it already?VirginiaI just watched the first episode and it was just delightful. Her chemistry with her best friend—I’m terrible at remembering character names, but everyone knows who I’m talking about. TigressI love that character.VirginiaI love them so much together. I would watch them to hang out and just talk about nothing and I would be so delighted. TigressI’m going to have to get into that this weekend.Can I say one more butter? The second Saturday in May is Black Fae Day, for Black folks who are into the whole magical creature realm, who do cosplays and meetups and stuff like that. So I’m also working on getting together my Black Fae Day costume. I haven’t found an Arizona meet up yet, but I’m going to do a photoshoot with the same photographer who did my Smith cover. I’m super excited about that. So y’all can follow me on Instagram, you’ll see my Black Fae Day costumes. But also you can just follow that hashtag and like support Black creators who are doing this really incredible cosplay. I think for some of them this is not even cosplay, Fae is their aesthetic and that is why they just look like fairies every day. But I am really, really excited about that.VirginiaI’m so glad, I didn’t know about that. And I’m really excited to look on Instagram for the hashtag with my five year old because she is a fan of fairy things.Thank you. Please come back anytime. Tell folks where we can follow you and support your work.TigressYou can learn more about NAAFA and you can follow us on most of your favorite social media sites. We’re most active on Instagram and Facebook. And you can follow me on Instagram at @IoftheTigress.VirginiaWonderful. Thank you so much, Tigress. It was really a pleasure having you here.TigressIt was so great to be here. I cannot wait to I got my copy of the book. I can’t wait to dig in. I’m really excited for to interact with the the Burnt Toast family. Do you call your fans Toasties or something?VirginiaCorinne came up with Burnt Toasties recently, and I sort of love that. Also one of my favorite little bits of troll commentary was the guy who called me high priestess of the indulgence gospel, so I’m kind of running with high priestess these days. I think we are all part of the indulgence gospel.TigressI love that.VirginiaHe definitely meant it as a burn and I took it as the honor of my life.TigressOne of my favorites lately was somebody who inboxed me to tell me that I’m so fat I look like Kung Fu Panda. And I was like, I will see your Kung Fu Panda and raise you one. I posted this picture of me with a giant hippo statue. Please look for that on my Instagram. I love that picture. And also, fuck that guy. Reclaiming the troll trash and turning it into treasures is way more fun than the whole don’t feed the trolls thing. Like, yes, don’t feed them. But also take everything they say and make it a hashtag that you love.VirginiaNow I need a high priestess costume.TigressWell, I hope to interact more with followers of the indulgence gospel and all the Burnt Toasties out there. Please do find me and say hello.

It's time for the May Indulgence Gospel! Instead of answering your questions this month, we're reading Virginia's hate mail. Buckle up! If you are already a paid subscriber, you’ll have this entire episode in your podcast feed and access to the entire transcript in your inbox and on the Burnt Toast Patreon.If you are not a paid subscriber, you'll only get the first chunk. To hear the whole conversation or read the whole transcript, you'll need to go paid. Also, don't forget to order Fat Talk: Parenting In the Age of Diet Culture! Get your signed copy now from Split Rock Books (they ship anywhere in the USA). You can also order it from your independent bookstore, or from Barnes & Noble, Amazon, Target, Kobo or anywhere you like to buy books. (Or get the UK edition or the audiobook!) Disclaimer: Virginia and Corinne are humans with a lot of informed opinions. They are not nutritionists, therapists, doctosr, or any kind of health care providers. The conversation you're about to hear and all of the advice and opinions they give are just for entertainment, information, and education purposes only. None of this is a substitute for individual medical or mental health advice.BUTTER & BOOKS_____ Is a Breakfast Food by Marjory SweetThe Unhoneymooners by Christina LaurenThe Ex Talk by Rachel Lynn SolomonSabrina Strings’ Fearing the Black Body: The Racial Origins of Fat PhobiaDa’Shaun Harrison Belly of the Beast: The Politics of Anti-Fatness as Anti-Blacknesschapter one of FAT TALKOrder any of these from the Burnt Toast Bookshop for 10 percent off if you also order (or have already ordered!) Fat Talk! (Just use the code FATTALK at checkout.)OTHER LINKS@SellTradePlusThe Cut did a profileFresh Air interviewthe face shieldinterview with Aubrey Gordonyes, fat marathon runnersvery popular article in The Atlantic about how eating ice cream is associated with lower rates of Type Two Diabetesa tweet about Elizabeth WarrenCREDITSThe Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith. Follow Virginia on Instagram or Twitter. Burnt Toast transcripts and essays are edited and formatted by Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, an Instagram account where you can buy and sell plus size clothing. The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe. Our theme music is by Jeff Bailey and Chris Maxwell. Tommy Harron is our audio engineer. Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!VirginiaYou’re listening to Burnt Toast! This is the podcast about diet culture, fatphobia, parenting, and health. I’m Virginia Sole-Smith. I also write the Burnt Toast newsletter.CorinneAnd I’m Corinne Fay. I work on Burnt Toast and run @SellTradePlus an Instagram account where you can buy and sell plus sized clothing.VirginiaAnd it’s time for your May mailbag episode! But instead of answering your questions this month, I decided it would be fun—cathartic? something?—to open my other mailbag, which is the place in my computer and in my DMs where the trolls live.CorinneYes, you’ve been getting a lot of this lately.VirginiaIt started when The Cut did a profile on me, right before the book launch. There were a lot of feelings about orange crackers. Which I feel like we have spoken to?CorinneYou addressed it very directly on TikTok.VirginiaThen after the Fresh Air interview came out, and the book launched, it’s just been a lot of people in their feelings. CorinneYou made it to Fox News.1VirginiaI did. I did make it to Fox News. I always knew I could do it.CorinneI didn’t realize that that was a thing, that they’ll be like, “Oh, something that was on Fresh Air. Let’s twist this into something that will make our audience mad.”VirginiaNo spoilers, Corinne! Because we’re gonna get into just how mad they got. I should say, Corinne hasn’t read most of these. I’m making her come in cold because I’m a little numb to it all at this point. CorinneI’ll be reacting in real time. VirginiaI felt like we needed some human reaction. I also want to say: In choosing what messages to talk about in this episode, I was mostly looking for the it’s-so-bad-it’s-funny comments, the orange snack cracker type of thing. But I do also want to get into some of the repeat themes that come up that I think are super troubling in this conversation. We are going to read some fairly disturbing emails. Content warning for anti-fatness, misogyny, every other kind of bias you can think of, white supremacy. It’s going to be a wild ride. Take care of yourself if that’s not something you want to listen to.CorinneMake sense. This is also a paywalled episode. That means to hear the whole thing, you’ll need to be a paid Burnt Toast subscriber. It’s just $5 per month or $50 for the year.VirginiaAll right, before we dive in, Corinne, how are you doing? What is new with you?CorinneI’m doing good. It’s starting to get a touch hot here, so I’m feeling a little bit of dread.VirginiaIs it time to get out the face shield?CorinneI’ve been wondering if we were going to talk about that sun visor again. Why don’t I just admit now, that it did not get a lot of wear.VirginiaBut it seemed so great!CorinneThe thing is, I wear glasses and it’s really hard to wear with glasses. VirginiaYeah, that does feel like a big design flaw. CorinneI need a sun visor in prescription glasses.VirginiaImagine if your whole face was your prescription.CorinneYes, exactly. What I ended up doing instead was just buying prescription sunglasses, which was great.VirginiaIt does feel like that plus a hat does achieve a lot of the same goals as the sun face shield. CorinneI no longer need a face shield because I have prescription sunglasses. VirginiaAll right. Well, it is an official Butter recommendation so we should probably go back and add a footnote. But if you don’t wear glasses, it might be amazing for you?CorinneTotally. Or maybe if you have less chunky glasses? What’s new with you? Besides.VirginiaBesides the trolls? Things are good. It’s garden season. I am excited about that. It’s been very nice to have that safe space to be in when my introvert self—and I want to be clear, this is just like how I would respond as an introvert to any amount of… There’s a lot of output with this season. Before we even get into the trolls. So it’s good. We had a lot of shrubs not survive the drought last year, which I’m sad about. But I’m also like, it’s a reason to buy a new plant.CorinneYou’ve got to treat yourself.VirginiaI’m mourning but I’m moving on. Okay, should we dive in? Should we do our first letter? CorinneI think we should.VirginiaOkay. This is from Lou. This is the kind of email I like to file under “Men Who Listen to Podcasts and Send Me Thoughts.” So Corinne, I will have you read this.CorinneHello Virginia,I was just listening to your podcast on NPR and I have to say it's been scientifically proven that being obese is an health issue, that goes for children and adults! I disagree that it's a body image problem. It's costing the health care system millions of dollars! Your information is misleading and harmful to say it's not an issue! Please do your due diligence and research the health effects rather than dismissing it as an image problem and chastising the medical community for addressing the issue. These obese, people, Lizzo for example, promote that fact it's ok, now you're writing books not addressing the issue. If you thought it was ok next time you go to the doctors get on the scale! The fact you don't reiterates what I'm saying and does not go along with what you're saying.. This problem all started when junk food and fast food came along - look back to old photos even the eighties - people were not obese - this is insane what's going on!VirginiaLou has a lot of thoughts. Lou also uses a lot of exclamation points. And has very creative comma use.CorinneCreative comma use for sure. My first thought is: Did Loui listen to the interview or did Lou read the title and react immediately?VirginiaThis is a common theme of Internet trolls.CorinneWould you say that the point of your book is that there’s a body image issue?VirginiaNo. I would not say that. CorinneI would not say that either.VirginiaThat’s not how I would characterize my work, no. We’re talking about systemic bias and how it harms people, including their physical health. I’m always sad when they bring Lizzo into it. Can we just leave Lizzo alone? CorinnePoor Lizzo.VirginiaShe doesn’t need this. She didn’t ask for it. You’re mad at me, Lou, not at Lizzo. So yes, this is very much a greatest hits troll playlist. Like, “It’s been scientifically proven with,” but he doesn’t link to any research or supporting evidence. He’s not looking at the data. "It’s costing the healthcare system millions of dollars.” There’s so many people who have put in thousands of hours of work unpacking these premises.Ragen Chastainhas devoted decades of her life to this. And then, "please do your research." That's one of my favorite things because I do research this? For a living?CorinneYou think they just let Virginia write a book without doing any research?VirginiaThey came up to me on the street. It was the wildest thing.CorinneYou sent them an email and said, “We have a body image problem. Can I write a book?”VirginiaThis is not specific to just Lou. One guy sent me link after link after link and they were all fitness guru podcast episodes. I understand I am just a woman who researches this professionally and has written about these issues for decades, and you are a man who listens to podcasts. But it still does not mean you have to send me personal emails about it.CorinneThere’s also not a lot here, besides ranting.VirginiaYeah, ranting and claiming that I don’t have any facts on my side while they have all the facts but they never actually use facts. The thing that really gets to me is how men write these emails where it’s like “You are wrong. Let me tell you how you are wrong. Please do your research,” and I’m just like, well I have 50 pages of footnotes, Lou. Do you?CorinneYOU please do your research. You please do YOUR research.VirginiaHere’s another fun one from a man. This guy wrote:In response to your grifting nonsense I would usually say hush! back into the kitchen with you and make me a sandwich—CorinneOh no. Virginiabut, sadly, we all know how that would end.CorinneHow…how… how would that end? VirginiaI can only assume he thinks it would end in me eating the sandwich and getting fatter and him having no sandwich?CorinneWow, what a burn.VirginiaOr I would be putting glass in his sandwich? I don’t know, there are a lot of options. CorinneThat is just so obnoxious. VirginiaObnoxious is the theme of today. Alright, this one I pulled from the comment section on The Cut interview which, as we discussed, there were a lot of feelings about crackers. But there was also some dark shit that came out. I think you already saw this one, Corinne, but why don’t you read it?CorinneBut I want my kid to be pretty and personally I feel thin lean bodies with toned muscles are more beautiful. Also, from experience, they feel better when you move them around in general.VirginiaI love this comment so much because he doesn’t even pretend it’s about health. Like, forget it. You’re right. The jig is up. I don’t care about health. I want my kid to be pretty.CorinneI mean, as I said to you, this one disturbs me because of the part about moving bodies around. What are you even talking about? All I can think of is dead bodies and how they would feel when you move them? UGH. Sorry guys.VirginiaI totally read it as, he thinks his own lean body feels good to move around. But you were like, “Is he moving around the children?”CorinneYeah, when he picks up his children they feel better when they have thin, lean, toned bodies? It’s so disturbing.VirginiaBut at least that one is honest. You know, he’s like, “Yeah, my kids would be prettier if they’re thin.” And I want to be clear, fat people are very pretty. But this is the belief system that we’re operating against. CorinneYes, right. This is another one where you’re like, “Oh, what a quirky thing that you’ve come up, with that you just like thin people better.”VirginiaJust a personal preference. CorinneWhere did you get that?VirginiaIt’s not really about any larger systemic bias. It’s just that he likes “pretty” kids. I mean, could you imagine being this guy’s daughter? Holy shit. CorinneHe knew about the band first. That’s the energy this is giving.VirginiaIt really is.CorinneHe discovered The Shins or something.VirginiaYes. Okay. One more gem I wanted to share from the ‘Why Are Men’ portion of this. This person writes: First, stop expecting guys to like fat girls. Second, don’t let girls think it’s cute or sexy to be fat.CorinneI guess the title of your book was, I Expect Guys to Like Fat Girls. So you did kind of ask for it. VirginiaAlso, the whole chapter where I was like here are 101 reasons why guys should like fat girls.CorinneFat girls are hot. VirginiaIt’s so interesting to me whether men will find fat women attractive.CorinneThe only explanation for this is that you posted a story saying it’s illegal for men not to find fat girls hot.VirginiaWell, obviously. I have that whole series.CorinneCall 911.VirginiaBut what’s fascinating about this, again, is that this is his worldview, right? He’s like, “Well I don’t think fat girls are attractive. And how dare this woman not talk about that at all?”Because I don’t care who you find attractive. But how dare this woman be implying any level of okay-ness with herself and with fat people in general? That interferes with his whole worldview that guys aren’t supposed to like fat girls.CorinneYes. And like, “don’t let girls think that.” Don’t allow them to have their own thoughts.VirginiaAnd I will say, I do encourage girls to have their own thoughts. CorinneThat’s true. That’s true.VirginiaAnd I do think it’s cute and sexy to be fat.CorinneI do as well. And I have found that other people do also.VirginiaSo I guess this guy is right that I am pushing that message out there. I’m fine with girls thinking it’s cute or sexy to be fat. Because of how it is.CorinneYou do let girls think that.VirginiaI let them think for themselves. I can see how that’s upsetting to him. I think for myself, I encourage other girls to think for themselves.Also, the gender binary heteronormative bullshit of the whole thing. Like, there are a lot of girls who don’t care? It’s so irrelevant?Yeah, so the men tend to go for the “I’m going to try to out-research you except I have no research” or it gets very personal and, again, I picked the lighter ones. There were many more specific comments on my body and other fat bodies. And we’re not going to read those.But before people are like, “it’s not all men.” We do get emails from women, too. So next up, this one is from Nikki. Corinne, do you wanna read this one? CorinneI listened to your interview on Fresh Air. I am sorry you get hate mail. This message is not intended to be hateful, however, when you use terms like "thin privilege" you should expect some push back. Using the term privilege makes it seem like those of us not "living in larger bodies" are just lucky. I get up at 4 every day of the week to exercise. I run at least one marathon a month. While I'd like to have an extra beer and dessert every night, I don't. It takes an incredible amount of determination and effort, and on some level pain, to achieve a fit body. This is not privilege or luck - it's hard work, and the use of thin privilege is offensive and discounts my effort, and that of everyone else who hasn't just given up and made excises. Yes, some people are naturally thin. I am not, nor are many of my friends who maintain the same fitness regimen. We work at it. You could too if you wanted to, then you would share in the "privilege" of the fruits of your labor.VirginiaOh, Nikki. I feel very sad for this one.CorinneIt is absolutely fucking insane to be running a marathon a month.VirginiaI feel sad, Corinne just really wants to focus on that. Yes. That is a lot of running.CorinneSomeone write in and tell me if that’s even allowed? But it is very sad.VirginiaShe is sketching out a lot of very disordered behaviors. Obviously, we don’t know this person. We know nothing beyond what’s in this email. We’re not going to diagnose her.And she’s right. Some people are naturally thin. Many people are not. Many people are torturing themselves to maintain thinness. That is kind of the whole problem. And it is even harder for people who are torturing themselves in the pursuit of thinness, the way this person is, and don’t achieve thinness because their bodies are not genetically set up to go there. So, that would be the thin privilege layer of this.And I know this podcast does not need me to explain thin privilege, but we will link to my interview with Aubrey Gordon where we talk through it all, if anyone is new to that concept. Also, Chapter Four of my book is all about thin privilege.But: The fact that you are personally working very, very hard to maintain your body does not mean you don’t benefit from the way this world treats thin people better than that people.CorinneAlso, Nikki. Have you never encountered a fat person who had a fitness regimen?VirginiaYeah, no, definitely not. Definitely no fat marathon runners. So yes, she’s equating her body with all of her habits. Also, just have the extra beer and the dessert. CorinneI know, come on.VirginiaThat sounds rough. I also want to speak to how she said, “I’m sorry, you get hate mail. This message is not intended to be hateful.” That is another thing that comes up. In the Fresh Air interview, Tonya Mosley actually asked me about the pushback I receive. And I think I referred to this stuff as hate mail, because again, the ones about “make me a sandwich,” and comments about my body, that is hate mail. But then I got a bunch that were like, “this isn’t hate mail. This is a debate.” And I just want to clarify: Just because somebody writes a book, and happens to be a woman on the Internet, does not mean she owes you a personal debate, or to help work through your personal points of contention with her work. CorinneNope. VirginiaYou can totally disagree with me. And she’s right that there’s nothing abusive in this email to me. CorinneShe’s not calling you names. VirginiaIt’s not hate speech.CorinneBut she is using a lot of quotes. “Thin privilege.” VirginiaIt’s not exactly trolling. But it is not an email that she needed to send. I do wonder a lot about the psychology of people who listen to an interview with someone on the radio they disagree with and go to the trouble to find their email and write a note. Like, what are you expecting to happen? Are we gonna hang out? What is the end game?CorinneLike you might get the email and be like, “Oh, you’re right. You’re right.” VirginiaAll these years I’ve spent researching this and writing this book were for nothing, because now I know Nikki isn’t letting herself drink beer. CorinneYou can tell she’s mad that she’s putting in all this effort and you’re not.VirginiaYeah, well, I’ve got sandwiches to make, Nikki. I can’t help you. I’ve got all these men who need me to make them sandwiches.CorinneI’ve got marathons to not run.VirginiaOkay, the next note is from Angela, and there is a lot going on here as well.CorinneVirginia, Im curious if you also have discussions at home about serious health outcomes associated with fatness.There are many healthy people with high BMIs. But there are also considerable risk factors. We have watched debilitating and deadly health problems in our family related to type 2 diabetes. Stroke. Death. Debilitating neuropathy. Loss of limbs. These are health outcomes we talked with our kids about as they benefited from thin privilege. That their eating habits especially impact this. It did not alway resonate. But its an honest discussion. They watched relatively you g relatives who were not all that fat SUFFER!Fat bodies are beautiful. They should not be shamed. All body sizes should know about the very serious risks associated with type 2 diabetes. Sort of fat, skinny fat people get diabetes too. Its a COMPLICATED conversation. And if you don’t shield your kids from a robust conversation they will still feel safe in their body and home. Kids hate being sugar coated and lied to. You can repeat this mantra of acceptance but it is only one side of the health conversation. You can only have this baby like dialog for so long before your kids realize that you are passionately loving your body and cashing in on a movement. You sound really smart and lovely on the radio. I urge you to broaden your thesis.Respectfully,AngelaVirginiaThis person is making my argument and not making my argument at the same time. It’s very hard to hold it all together. They make the point that all body sizes should be concerned about long term health risks, which is something I am also arguing for. I’m saying, “let’s take weight out of health conversations.” Everyone can think about what’s doable within their life to promote their health, if they want. She’s saying that sort of fat and skinny fat people get diabetes, too. Also just regular skinny people get it. So that’s useful. It is a complicated conversation.But then she’s like, “Don’t just tell them to love their bodies.” So I don’t understand exactly what she wants. I guess she wants us to also fear monger to kids about long-term health issues?CorinneThis person is clearly grieving or something, you know? They clearly have watched someone they care about suffer and are somehow trying to transfer that onto their kids, which seems really unfair.VirginiaI got a couple other versions of this, where people were telling me about their family history and basically saying, “Well, this is why I tell my kids, we can’t eat junk food. And this is why I tell my kids they have to exercise.” And it just really breaks my heart.Because the fact is, a lot of this is genetically predisposed. Lifestyle habits definitely do matter, but teaching your kids from a young age that they have to think about food and how they exercise as this constant battle against a looming future health risk really takes away their ability to just be children in their body. And I say this as a parent of a kid with a chronic health condition. It’s something I’ve spent a lot of time thinking about. How do we make sure you are not defined by the health condition you have and get to just be yourself and live your life? And if that means you’re not perfectly healthy all the time, I think it’s more valuable to me that you get to enjoy your life.And I think this is even more true if this isn’t an active health issue you’re managing. If you’re just worrying about what might happen 10, 20, 40 years down the road and staying in this place of fear about it. It definitely feels very rooted in trauma, but I don’t think it’s actually health-promoting.CorinneI agree with you. It seems really stressful. And if there’s one thing we know about chronic health conditions, stress doesn’t usually help them.VirginiaAnd if you are concerned about your child’s future metabolic health, eating disorders really do a number on your metabolic health in ways that linger for decades after recovery. Preventing eating disorders is not promoting diabetes. This is actually very much in service of preventing Type Two Diabetes, to the extent that any health condition can be prevented. CorinneI mean, there was that recent, very popular article in The Atlantic about how eating ice cream is associated with lower rates of Type Two Diabetes.VirginiaBut I do like that she called me smart and lovely on the radio. I appreciate that. Another hallmark of the emails from women is the mix of the compliment and the not compliment.Corinne“You’re smart and lovely but stop this baby-like dialogue.”Virginia We contain multitudes, Corinne. I can hold those things together. It reminds me of my very favorite of all of my troll comments, the guy calling me a high priestess of the indulgence gospel. I still feel like it’s the nicest thing anyone’s ever said about me?CorinneIt is really wonderful. VirginiaTruly, beautiful poetry CorinneIt is like beautiful poetry. VirginiaAll right. Next up is another delightful email. This one came with the subject line “Hey, fatso,” so you can imagine where we’re going. Take it away, Corinne.CorinneI need to make a comment about your statement that being thin has something to do with slavery. First, I am old enough to be your grandmother. I have been fat all my life because I am a big Norwegian woman with a DNA that goes back to the Vikings. I have a lot of trouble staying healthy because I have a number of digestive issues. And it has ZERO to do with slavery. That’s an insult!You are one of those spoiled overindulged know it all product of a generation of overindulged spoiled children, who barely understand or appreciate the generations that came before. You got a little golden book of American history, then hung your hook on the most controversial subject you could find, so you could make a few bucks. My own daughter is an athlete and has Type 1 Diabetes - she has to stay thin or she dies. Obesity is also a result of many other metabolic diseases and the last thing anyone thinks about is slavery - enjoy your profits you greedy little monster.VirginiaGuys, I am sorry we’re not releasing a video of this, because Corinne’s expressions when she is reading these emails are so amazing. And it’s making me laugh a lot.CorinneI don’t even know where to start, you greedy little monster.VirginiaSo, okay. I mean, this is in chapter one of the book. Anti-fatness is rooted in anti-Black racism. And modern diet culture can be traced back to the end of slavery in the United States. This is when we see the thin ideal really heighten and intensify in terms of media representations and in terms of how medical researchers at the time were talking about what constituted “good health.” The ideal became much thinner because it was a way of centering white bodies over Black and brown bodies. This is all in the book. Obviously, you also need to read Sabrina Strings’ Fearing the Black Body: The Racial Origins of Fat Phobia and Da’Shaun Harrison Belly of the Beast: The Politics of Anti-Fatness as Anti-Blackness to get the deep dive. So what happened is, in the Fresh Air interview, Tonya Mosley and I had a very nuanced and detailed conversation about this. And then Fox News and the New York Post and Breitbart and the Daily Mail and several other conservative media outlets I am forgetting picked up this particular chunk of the Fresh Air conversation and ran all these stories about “author says wanting to be thin makes you racist.”What’s interesting is, some of the pieces are literally just taking my quotes from the transcript but with a framing that’s like, ‘can you believe!’ and I’m like, “well, you’re laying it out quite well?” But they know exactly how to tweak it for their audience, it’s like a dog whistle to really stir up this response. So, this was the first of many emails from people very offended that I said being thin has something to do with slavery. This “little Golden Book of American history,” and “you’re hanging your hook on this most controversial subject,” all of that is coming straight from this. Like, how dare you? How dare you call out whiteness? How dare you call out the fact that whiteness has been complicit with the thin ideal for decades and decades and hundreds of years. That’s what she’s upset about.Also, she’s descended from Vikings, so she should be proud of that. Good for her. And again, we see the fear mongering with the kid with the Type One Diabetes “has to stay thin or die.”CorinneI can’t with this person. VirginiaYou have no words. Okay. So this one came in under the subject “speaking engagement,” because if you are on my portfolio website and you use the contact form, you can say it’s a press request or speaking engagement or whatever and I guess they thought if they just picked other I might not be reading those and they would be right. I have stopped reading those this week. So this person used “speaking engagement” as the subject and then wrote:I would like to retain your services for a speaking engagement. My colleagues and I simply don’t believe you exist, we do not believe such a racist bigoted piece of shit such as yourself could exist, you must be fake. We’d be willing to pay you to regurgitate the garbage ideas in your rotten brain. I hope CPS takes your kids away if God forbid you have any, they deserve better than having racist, unhealthy, hate filled bigot as a parent.Go fuck yourself.So I just want to know: My speaking fee is quite high. Do we think they’re going to also cover travel? Like, I just need more details on the speaking engagement offer.CorinneYeah, I hope you called them.VirginiaDefinitely forwarded it right over to Ariel, my speaking agent.CorinneWhat kind of colleagues do you think this person has?VirginiaI assume the other people who live in his mother’s basement?CorinneIf I got this, I would be looking up their colleagues, calling them, and being like, “Did you know your colleague just sent me an email that says ‘Go fuck yourself?’”VirginiaThis person has no colleagues, Corinne. This is not an actual request for a speaking engagement.CorinneYeah, I mean, this is disturbing. “I hope CPS takes your kids away?” That’s so sad and scary. VirginiaThis was not the only one that went there. The comments on The Cut piece also had a frequent refrain about child abuse. Because we stock orange snack crackers. So I just want people to really sit with what child abuse means to them. There were also a few threats of physical violence and legal action, which I’m not going to read for all of our well being and my own safety. Again, I was thinking we would mostly stay in the funny make-me-a-sandwich place with this and then all this really toxic stuff has been coming in.It’s interesting, because I do not internalize it. None of this makes me doubt the importance of doing this work or makes me think, “Oh, I better not be outspoken about this.” None of it works. But it is a profound energy drain that every time I open my email or my DMs on Twitter or Instagram right now, I’m thinking what am I going to see? How many people am I going to report and block?And there’s this shrugging response that some people have of like, “well, what can you expect?” And I just find that very disappointing. I think we can expect better from humans. I do. I mean, I know. I’m not naive. I’ve been public on the Internet for a long time now. This isn’t the first time I’ve had this kind of thing blow up. But I don’t think that this is a reasonable cost of doing business. CorinneIt also just it makes me curious. Do you think that the people who we vehemently disagree with are getting this kind of email? Like, are people emailing Tucker Carlson like this?VirginiaThat’s an interesting question.CorinneIt’s just very strange.VirginiaI would assume yes, to be honest. I mean, think back to the 2016 election. The Bernie Bros were not great. Everyone, I’m a Bernie Sanders fan. We don’t need to get into that. But I had a tweet about Elizabeth Warren go viral during that election—and I’m not a political journalist. This was just me tweeting my feelings about Elizabeth Warren. And that Twitter thread blew up with the Bernie Bros coming in and saying really nasty stuff to me. Not quite on this level, not threats of physical violence level, but it was definitely not a respectful discourse.CorinneYeah. And people were very fatphobic to Donald Trump.VirginiaLots of woke progressives are very fatphobic.CorinneBut I just feel like, who does this? Who is sending these emails?VirginiaAgain, it’s a lot of men. And apparently a couple of grandmas, a couple of angry grandmas? CorinneViking Grandmas.VirginiaThe other thing that’s a dog whistle here is all of these emails calling me racist. What they mean is racist to white people. That’s what they’re talking about. They’re saying that I am being anti-white.CorinneWhich is a premise that I don’t accept.VirginiaCorrect. I also don’t accept it. CorinneOkay, we need to bring things up a little. So here are some nice comments.This comment came from the Friday open thread.VirginiaWhich was beautiful, I loved it so much. CorinneYes. I’m going to read one from Diana. Virginia, this is a love note. I write a mental love note to you in my head every time I read the newsletter and listen to the podcast, but have been too shy to share it until now. I am so grateful to you for this difficult and important work you are doing. You are so brave to speak up on behalf of all of us and to put this target on your back. Your work has changed my life. It has changed my kids' lives. It has made me a better parent who will never, ever count bites of broccoli again. It has changed the way I work with clients in my private therapy practice. It inspires me to constantly grow, question, and evolve. You write so beautifully, so movingly, and you're so damn smart and talented. I cried at the end of listening to you read the first chapter of Fat Talk. I shared it with everyone I know because it was so brilliantly written and so moving. You're a hero, and I'm grateful for you every day. You are changing the world. The trolls see how powerful you are and it scares them. The more powerful and radical your message, the louder and nastier the trolls will be, so every time you get an awful DM, take a moment to center yourself with that knowledge. Their vitriol is a sign that you're doing this right, that you're ruffling feathers, that you're challenging the status quo. Keep up the good workVirginiaI mean, I may cry? That was far too nice to just me. I did not ask you to read some nice notes at the end here, so that people would say I’m brilliant or whatever! That was not the point of this, Corinne. But thank you, that is amazing, really amazing. And it is really helpful to just hear that the work is helping people. Like I said: The mean comments don’t make me want to stop. But it’s nice to be reminded why we’re doing this, for sure. So you are all high priestesses of the indulgence gospel, or whatever gender term you would like to use to describe yourself. Thank you.ButterVirginiaShould we do some butter?CorinneYeah, let’s do some butter. I want to recommend this book. It’s called _____ Is a Breakfast Food.2 It is written by my close personal friend, Marjory Sweet, who is cook, and a farmer, and a baker, and the reason that I ended up in New Mexico. She is now back in Maine. But, it’s a cookbook, it has recipes, but it’s also a little like avant garde personal meditation on breakfast and how we eat this meal.VirginiaWe are very pro-breakfast here!CorinneAnd it has a bunch of interesting, unfussy recipes, as well as little writings from Marjory and quotes from women about what they like to eat for breakfast. I just thought people might enjoy it. It’s a cool format, too—it’s spiral-bound and it has little photo inserts. VirginiaIt looks really neat. I’m very excited. And I, as discussed, have been in a breakfast rut for 20 years, but I would be excited to try some different breakfast things. Plus, I bet you could eat them for other meals as well?CorinneYes, definitely. Sometimes recipes are just good for entertainment, too. VirginiaYeah, that is true. I was thinking the other day, especially in this phase of life I’m in where my children don’t eat most of the foods I like, a lot of my cookbooks are really just recreational. CorinneTotally. What’s your butter? VirginiaMine is two books I read in the past week. Because as I was dealing with this onslaught of feelings from the men and the grandmas, I realized that I had no bandwidth for any challenging media consumption. I barely made it through an episode of Succession. I was like, “I can’t follow this business conversation.” CorinneYes. That makes sense. VirginiaAnd I actually have two books I need to read for my book clubs that are coming up very soon. And I can’t do it. They’re like serious fiction and I don’t have it in me. Anyway, so these were two delightful feminist romance novels that I read last week. One is The Unhoneymooners by Christina Lauren, which was a treat. And the other one is The Ex Talk by Rachel Lynn Solomon.Shop the Burnt Toast Bookstore!What I will say about The Unhoneymooners, if you read feminist romance for a lot of sex, it’s not one of the ones with a lot of sex. It is delightful, but you just want to know going in it’s not a super sexy one. But it’s really fun. You do have to suspend some disbelief about original premises of these things. And the ex talk is really fun because it is two public radio hosts who get put together to make a podcast where they have to pretend to be exes. And again, suspend some disbelief about what NPR station would think that was a good idea. But especially if you’re into podcasts, like there are lots of discussions of PodCon and public radio sort of banter, so that makes it a fun world.CorinneThat sounds really fun. VirginiaYeah, they were both perfect. I’m sad they’re over.Alright, thank you guys. This was very cathartic for me. These have been coming in and I’ve been usually not reading them or just shoving them into a folder in my email which I call Men Yell at Me in honor of lyz’s newsletter, who for sure knows firsthand what it’s like to get these emails. Thanks so much for listening to Burnt Toast!CorinneIf you’d like to support the show, please subscribe for free in your podcast player and leave us a rating or review. The trolls are showing up in the podcast reviews, too, so leave us a review and help us keep our five star rating! Reviews and ratings also help new listeners find the show.VirginiaThey really are showing up, guys! I didn’t just make Corinne say that. So yeah, get in there and leave a review. Rate & Review on Apple Podcasts!---Click at your own risk: https://www.foxnews.com/media/npr-podcast-argues-thinness-product-white-supremacy-patriarchySince recording, Marjory’s website has sold out of books, but the book is available now at Vestige and General Store should be available online soon at Post Supply.

Today Virginia is chatting with her longtime friend and colleague Christy Harrison, MPH, RD! Christy is a journalist, registered dietitian, and certified Intuitive Eating counselor. She’s the author of Anti-Diet: Reclaim Your Time, Money, Well-Being, and Happiness Through Intuitive Eating. And today we are talking about Christy’s new book, The Wellness Trap: Break Free from Diet Culture, Disinformation, and Dubious Diagnoses, and Find Your True Well-Being.And remember, if you order The Wellness Trap or Anti-Diet from the Burnt Toast Bookshop, you can get 10 percent off that purchase if you also order (or have already ordered!) Fat Talk! (Just use the code FATTALK at checkout.)If you want more conversations like this one, please rate and review us in your podcast player! And become a paid Burnt Toast subscriber to get all of Virginia's reporting and bonus subscriber-only episodes. Disclaimer: Virginia is a journalist and human with a lot of informed opinions. Virginia is not a nutritionist, therapist, doctor, or any kind of health care provider. The conversation you're about to hear and all of the advice and opinions she gives are just for entertainment, information, and education purposes only. None of this is a substitute for individual medical or mental health advice.BUTTER & OTHER LINKSchristyharrison.comListen here for Virginia's conversation on Christy's new podcast, Rethinking Wellness. Virginia's first bookthe SIFT checkLove Is a Revolution by Renee WatsonFAT TALK is out! Order your signed copy from Virginia's favorite independent bookstore, Split Rock Books (they ship anywhere in the US!). Or order it from your independent bookstore, or from Barnes & Noble, Amazon, Target, or Kobo or anywhere else you like to buy books. You can also order the audio book from Libro.fm or Audible.CREDITSThe Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith. Follow Virginia on Instagram or Twitter. Burnt Toast transcripts and essays are edited and formatted by Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, an Instagram account where you can buy and sell plus size clothing. The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe. Our theme music is by Jeff Bailey and Chris Maxwell. Tommy Harron is our audio engineer. Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!Episode 92 TranscriptVirginiaSo this is the first time we’ve gotten to catch up since you became a mom! And I just want to say: It’s very annoying that I’m leading with this question. Women get asked all the time to talk about this. Men rarely do. Although, I would ask it, if I had more male podcast guests who had recently become dads. But yeah: How are you doing? How do you feel like entering motherhood has changed or informed your relationship to everything you work on? ChristyI’m doing okay. But I’m having a really hard time balancing mom life and work life. A big part of me just wants to leave work and be a stay-at-home mom. But honestly, we can’t afford to do that. And right now, I’m the primary earner and my husband is the primary childcare. So there’s that piece, the capitalism piece. And, I do love my work. I couldn’t imagine not having that be at least part of my life. So it’s just been a real adjustment of switching gears, switching back and forth.I work from home and my daughter’s home. And so I will go fill my water and she’s there and wants to play or go to the bathroom. It’s great, but.VirginiaIt’s a constant mindset shift. Am I in work mode? Or am I in mom mode? And somehow you’re always in both, which is tough.ChristyEspecially in this day and age, when your email is in your pocket. So when I’m watching her, one eye is on the phone and then I feel terrible because I’m not present. And then, when I’m working, one ear is out for her or wanting to be with her. My heart is pulled in that direction. I just love her so much, and I want to spend all my time with her. She’s just at such a cute age right now, too. She’s starting to talk and walk and you know, all the things. All the milestones. So it’s been a real adjustment. But in terms of how it’s affected or informed my relationship to the topics I cover, that’s also been really interesting. It’s made me so grateful that I was fortunate enough to heal my own relationship with food before having kids. And that is such a huge privilege. And expensive, right? That was like a decade of psychotherapy, at least.VirginiaA lot of hard work and resources.ChristyExactly. It feels like it’s paid off in the sense that, yes, my body has changed, but I’m not fixated on that. Yes, food is sometimes tricky with her, like getting her to eat , but I’m not fixated on that.It’s one thing to say, “yes, Division of Responsibility, trust your child’s body,” when you’re not in it. But it’s quite another when you have a toddler sitting in front of you screaming or fussing because they’re hungry but refusing to eat. So, there’s that piece, too, of wanting to make sure she has enough. Thankfully it’s not coming from this orthorexic place of “I need to get her more vegetables.” It’s literally like, “what will this child eat?”VirginiaAnd how do we avoid hunger meltdowns an hour from now? ChristyYeah, exactly. It’s a strategy thing of managing her day and your day. If she’s hungry in an hour, you just give her more in an hour. And that’s fine. But as she’s starting to have more scheduled stuff going on there is that reality of having to plan.VirginiaRight, what if we’re in the car in an hour and it’s actually not that easy? And yet that’s when they realize that they wish they ate that yogurt. We have all these best practices but in the moment, you can just forget it all.ChristyWhen it’s your kid and you want to do the best for them. A lot of it is not life and death, but some of it really feels that way, like with the choking stuff. That’s something I have gotten kind of anxious about and been really meticulous about. “Okay, we have to cut this in this way and squish this thing,” and now it’s getting so vague because my daughter is over one. And so now a lot of the guidance that you see from reputable sources online is like, “well, if they’re under one cut the blueberries this way, but maybe they can have a whole blueberry once they’re one but maybe no.” Like, “see what your child’s capacity is,” you know?VirginiaJust try it out. Figure it out. Can you measure their esophagus?ChristyAnd I’m like, “No, thank you! Let’s just keep squishing them!” And. of course, my husband might have a different idea of what to do. It just feels so fraught. Even when you go to the pediatrician, for guidance, right? What should we do about this question that feels so fraught and we can’t come to an agreement? And they’re like, “Well, you could do it this way but you also could do it this way.” And like, “see what you think.” And it goes back to this do what feels right for you situation.And we go to a pediatrician who’s a very conventional MD, not integrative or functional, or anything like that. But for a lot of things, I think there aren’t clear cut answers. It’s been really a lesson in having to let go and trust and just do the best we can to set our boundaries and our strategies and then maybe change them as things evolve. VirginiaI think it’s such an exercise in learning to trust, getting to know your child and yourself as a parent and learning what makes sense for you. But the problem is, you don’t know that immediately. So there’s this gray area where you’re trying to figure out how to trust that and nobody ever has really good advice for getting to that place. It’s just time and experience that gets you more comfortable navigating those things. And it’s so much emotional and mental labor.ChristyYeah, it really is. Thankfully, I’m sort of out of the place where I was furiously googling at 3 in the morning. That first six months where you’re just like what is even happening? Like, “is this crying normal?” I feel like that all is somewhat in the rearview now. No one really talks about the toll that that takes on our mental health, right? That sense of not knowing what the hell is going on and feeling like you’re responsible. VirginiaOh, it’s a trauma for sure. And it has a long tail, I think, of processing how deep that fear was. Those 3 am rabbit holes, that’s a real thing.ChristyAnd I mean, I didn’t even have to go through what you went through with a medical trauma.VirginiaOh, yeah. But just for everyone, across the board. Having a human that you are now responsible for keeping alive. It’s a whole thing for sure. ChristyAnd they just send you home with them. Like, “okay, good luck!”VirginiaWhat are they thinking? ChristyUgh, its ridiculous.VirginiaWell, I think you are doing an amazing job. And at the very same time that you’ve been doing all of this, you’ve also been getting a new book ready and that’s what we’re here to talk about. So first of all, big applause for that! I think you had a similar timeline with this book as I had with my first book where you were writing it while you were pregnant.ChristyThat’s right. VirginiaI think we were emailing about due dates of babies and books and how close together you want them to be. And then, of course, coming back from your maternity leave, and jumping right into getting ready to launch a book. It’s a lot. ChristyIt’s a lot. VirginiaSo the new book is called The Wellness Trap. It is a deep dive into the underbelly of modern wellness culture. It is fascinating! So impeccably researched, of course, because it’s Christy. Tell us what inspired this and what made you want to go deeper into wellness, especially right now.ChristyIn late 2020 I was seeing how the pandemic was making us so much more vulnerable to wellness culture, and how the wellness industry, wellness influencers, were capitalizing on COVID to sell products that had no good evidence behind them. Wellness culture in general was like leading people down rabbit holes of myths and disinformation and driving increases in conspiracism. We were starting to see QAnon popping up in wellness spaces and driving the anti-vax movement further into the mainstream, and just generally leading to some really weird and dangerous places. So, that was the impetus to do the book at that time. I had covered wellness in a chapter in my first book and that’s a chapter that seemed to really resonate with a lot of readers. Wellness is the new guise of diet culture and it’s so insidious. People like will be like, “I’m recovering from my eating disorder. Now I’m just gonna get really into wellness.” It’s such a such a fraught territory. That’s a lot of what we talked about when you interviewed me for your first book, right? The sustainable food movement, Michael Pollan, and all the problems with that. The anti-fat bias that’s inherent in those arguments, but also the anti-food bias, right? The demonization of certain foods and lionization of others and the orthorexic mindset that can come out of that. I see that so much with my clients who are recovering from disordered eating.But something I’ve also seen a lot over the years with both clients and readers and listeners, is that people will come to me saying, “my functional medicine doctor diagnosed me with leaky gut syndrome,” or “my naturopath told me I have adrenal fatigue,” or “this person online told me I have chronic Candida and they told me to cut out all these foods and take out all these supplements as a way to treat it but it’s really messing up my relationship with food,” like, “How do I do these things that I need to to take care of my health while maintaining a peaceful relationship with food?” And I feel like that’s been happening more and more in recent years. VirginiaYes, and I just want to pause here for a minute because I have a feeling a lot of folks listening are like, “yes, yes, that’s me.” It is so common.Talk a little bit about how you do approach this with clients? How do you think about it in terms of the book? Are there conditions where elimination diets are sometimes helpful and informative? Or do you see this very much as misdirecting people from really working on things that would actually be health promoting?ChristyIt’s such a good question. I want to empathize with anyone who’s in that position, first and foremost. I’m someone also with multiple chronic illnesses and things that took years to get diagnosed and have been down wellness rabbit holes myself, so I very much empathize with the desire for answers.And yet, for those those three conditions I mentioned, which I cover in the book—chronic Candida, leaky gut syndrome, and adrenal fatigue—there’s this whole other layer to this. Not only is it not evidenc-based to cut out foods and do elimination diets for those conditions, but actually there’s not really good evidence that those conditions really exist. The symptoms people experience are very real, and there are grains of truth in each of each of those conditions. People might be fatigued, but it’s not coming from your adrenals being exhausted or overworked. People might have digestive issues or acne and bloating and dry skin and all these disparate symptoms that might be related to something underlying, or might be all kinds of different conditions that are going on, that are not caused by a chronic overgrowth of yeast in your body. Or people might have digestive issues that are causing them distress, and that have a real medical explanation or are in part driven by disordered eating and some underlying medical stuff, but that’s not because your gut is leaky, and it’s causing all these all these symptoms throughout your body.It’s really hard to untangle that. I think it’s become more common for people to want to seek out a holistic provider or someone who’s going to get to the root cause of things because so many of us are disillusioned by the health care system. I definitely have gone through my own experiences that left me feeling like conventional medicine was really lacking for chronic diseases and illnesses that I have. And so we get sort of excited by and attracted to providers who say, “I’m going to get to the root cause. I’m not just going to give you medicine, but I’m also going to figure out what’s actually going on give you a treatment that’s holistic.”VirginiaI have endometriosis and I have migraines. I completely remember just feeling so dismissed. No one in my regular doctor’s office was considering my symptoms as anything more than just pain management. Like, “Let’s try Advil. If that doesn’t work, let’s try more Advil. And then let’s try some kind of prescription painkiller,” was the beginning and end of the conversation. So of course, it was so appealing to try to find some more cohesive explanation, right? Like some other condition or some thing that would link all of these murky symptoms together. It’s such an understandable place to be at and it makes me really angry at mainstream medicine for ignoring particularly women.ChristyThere are these things that I think conventional medical care is not necessarily set up to address. These quick 5 to 15 minute appointments that we have with most of our providers don’t really allow enough time to get into the details. One thing that integrative and functional and alternative medicine providers of all stripes provide really well is empathy and time. But my experience and that of many people I’ve talked to, has been that can outweigh, at first, the fact that some of these providers aren’t giving evidence-based treatments, and in many cases are actually doing the thing that they accuse conventional medicine of: Prescribing a one size fits all solution. It’s painted in wellness culture, as if conventional medicine just wants to slap a bandaid on it, they want to just give you medicine to make the symptoms go away. They just care about symptom management, they don’t want to get to the root cause. Everybody’s treated the same. It’s not personalized or individualized. But actually, in a lot of these wellness spaces, it’s kind of the same thing. Instead of giving you pain management or treating everyone who has a certain condition with a certain protocol, it’s okay, let’s give everyone who has this so-called condition, whether or not it’s a genuine condition, let’s have them cut out all these foods. Let’s have them take these supplements. Let’s have them do these protocols.It’s not actually really addressing holistic health. It’s not addressing people’s wellbeing in a global sense. I think in many cases, we see people who struggle with those protocols and develop really disordered eating as a result. I’ve had some people tell me, “I told my functional medicine doctor that I had an eating disorder history and to please take that into account and then they still recommended these elimination diets.”Doctors don’t have the time and the resources to be up on everything. Our medical system is set up to be sort of siloed. So people have their specialties and unfortunately, disordered eating is seen as a specialty. It’s not seen as something that’s relevant to every provider. VirginiaMaddening. It obviously is going to underpin everything.ChristyAs I talked about in my first book, eating disorder treatment is seen as a special silo and that it’s a really small percentage of the population that has eating disorders, really does a disservice to everyone. Because disordered eating—maybe not clinical eating disorders, although those are also far more prevalent than actually diagnosed—as a larger space and percentage of the population is so rampant.Most providers, I would say, when they’re talking to someone, any patient that comes in their door is likely to be struggling with some level of disordered eating in our culture. I think this is especially true when we look at people with digestive disorders, right? One study found that 98% of people with eating disorders have a functional gut disorder, and 44.4% of people who in one study went to a specialty clinic for digestive disorders actually had disordered eating.VirginiaSo really, practitioners should be taking that as a baseline or at least that should be one of the first screening questions they’re asking with any new patient intake. Figuring out what this person’s relationship is with disordered eating and how do we need to protect them before we consider any protocols.ChristyI think that that needs to be a first line question, a first line treatment. Getting people help for their disordered eating before putting them on any sort of elimination diet, I think, is essential. From what I’ve seen, in the research and what I’ve seen in my own clinical practice, I think that elimination diets are not the panacea they’re made out to be. They are, in a lot of cases, not effective. They can certainly drive people further into disordered eating, but even beyond that are not necessarily effective at identifying any sort of food sensitivities. The placebo and nocebo effect are very real. People have pre-existing beliefs about certain types of foods and when you do an elimination diet where you’re systematically removing and then reintroducing foods, those beliefs can get activated. I think that providers in many cases exacerbate that, right? Like, okay, take out all these foods. And then you’re going to bring in gluten, you’re going to bring in dairy. Watch for symptoms. If you notice bloating, this and that. It’s making people hyper-focus on perceived symptoms. And the mind body connection is very real. We know that the placebo effect actually has physiological effects on our body. It can activate the endogenous opioid system, which is how our body creates pain relief for itself. And so in conditions where pain is a big part of it, we can definitely have strong placebo effects and strong nocebo effects show up. So if someone is struggling with chronic pain or digestive pain, digestive distress, and they’re bringing back in a food that they believe is going to be harmful to them it really can activate this sense of increased pain and also just the act of hyper focusing on symptoms can make you notice them more in general.VirginiaAnd there’s even some evidence that the GI symptoms you may be trying to resolve through the elimination diet, this process of tinkering and taking foods in and out can cause some of those same symptoms in some folks, right?ChristyAbsolutely. Not eating enough and having a fearful relationship with food absolutely has effects on the digestive system. Tinkering and taking foods in and out can change the microbiome. There’s a lot of buzz about the microbiome and gut health in wellness culture. And it’s always geared towards like, “we need to optimize the microbiome by taking out anything processed, by taking out all these foods that are considered to be bad and harmful.” But actually, we need diversity in our gut flora, right? That same diversity in the microbiome seems to be associated with better outcomes. And the science on the microbiome is in such in such an infancy state that we really don’t know the correlation versus causation there.Virginia It’s way too early to be translating that to clinical practice guidelines.ChristyAnd yet, so many in the functional and integrative medicine spaces are doing just that. They are taking really early stage science and using it to recommend diets and other protocols to people across the board, right? Telling everyone to take out gluten, even though research really shows that there isn’t even necessarily such a thing as non-celiac gluten sensitivity. Because a lot of the research looking at people who self identify as having non-celiac gluten sensitivity will have people who already believe they’re sensitive to gluten, and then they go into a challenge where they’re given gluten and they know it, and they have symptoms, right? But of course, when you believe something is bad for you, the nocebo effect is very real. It can create real physical symptoms.So it makes sense that people would report more symptoms in that case. But when people who believe they have non-celiac gluten sensitivity are blinded to the existence of gluten in their diets—so they’re given a baseline diet that is the same for the control and the study groups, and then given gluten in a hidden form, like in a muffin or in a pill, then people don’t actually report differences in symptoms. There’s no difference between the gluten group and the non-gluten group. VirginiaI feel like that doesn’t sit that well with a lot of folks, Christy.ChristyI know, I know. And I’m sorry to ruffle feathers. I mean, I was so there back in the early- to mid-2000s, when the early days of the gluten-free fad started happening. I was convinced that gluten was at the root of my problems and no one could tell me otherwise. I think I would have been very resentful to hear something like that at that time, too.But, in my heart of hearts, looking back on it and even even at the time, I know that part of me was like, “Is this really helping? I don’t actually know. Like, I’m not sure If I feel better. I’m still bingeing, I’m just bingeing on gluten-free foods now. And my stomach is still hurting, I’m still having a lot of these other symptoms that I later realized were connected to endocrine and autoimmune conditions.” So it wasn’t totally clear. I think for anyone who hears that and has a reaction and feels defensive and like, well, I don’t have celiac disease but I still react to gluten. I totally understand that. And it’s possible. It is possible. Who knows, right? But some people who have Celiac Disease are not diagnosed. So, that’s one thing to consider. Another thing to consider is whether or not there might be some placebo and nocebo effects at play. And whether whether you really do truly know that you feel better over time, right?Because the placebo/nocebo effects are powerful drugs, but they can start to wear off over time. So giving yourself enough time to see, like, is this continuing to have an effect? If not, maybe it’s not gluten at all. Maybe there’s something else going on. And I think to listeners of this podcast, I would say especially consider your relationship with food. Consider whether disordered eating might be a play in anything going on for you.VirginiaI just appreciate your empathy for all of that. I think it is tough for folks who have been experiencing these symptoms and really miserable and it’s so understandable to want these things to be the answers. But it’s not helping us in the long run if seizing on a diet-based changed as the answer also creates all this other distress and stress around how to manage that diet change.ChristyAnd sometimes those diet changes can lead to more diet changes, right? If you feel like, okay, gluten, I don’t know if it 100 percent did the trick. I think in wellness culture and with wellness practitioners we are often encouraged then to cut out more foods, cut out more foods, cut out more foods, right? It can become this slippery slope into really restrictive and Orthorexic territory. VirginiaI really want to talk about the anti-vax rabbit hole that you had to go down in this book, as well. I’ve done some reporting on vaccine controversies and talk about intense comment sections—it’s a wild ride. So I see your labor on this particular aspect of it.When I became a parent in 2013, it seemed like we were just coming out of a period of really intense vaccine anxiety related to autism myths. (Thank you, Jenny McCarthy.) So when I had my first baby, there was lots of pro-vaccine sentiment in my parenting circles of people pushing back against that narrative. But of course, since COVID, we now have all this new vaccine fear-mongering. It seems like a lot of folks who were previously either pretty pro-vaccine or at least not taking a strong position have gotten more vaccine hesitant. Tell us a little bit about what you learned in terms of how the wellness industry is influencing all of this.ChristyWhat I’ve found is that the wellness industry is very much at the heart of the anti-vax movement in this COVID phase. There’s been this longstanding entanglement. What we’ve really seen in this COVID phase is prominent wellness influencers who’ve been spreading a lot of other misinformation about food and supplements and other alternative medicine concepts. I don’t know if I should name any names here or not. I talk about them in the book. VirginiaOh, name names. ChristyOkay, well, we’ve got people like Joseph Mercola, Kelly Brogan, Christiane Northrup, some of the big names in alternative medicine were among the anti-vaxxers who played leading roles in spreading misinformation about COVID vaccines on social media. They get people in with a diet and alternative medicine info, like the promise of healing chronic conditions or getting off medication through lifestyle changes and things like that. Then the anti-vaccine content becomes folded into those messages.So, they’ll falsely claim that vaccines are unnecessary and harmful, toxic, and that if you’ve been vaccinated you need to detox but also that you need to boost your immune system through diets and supplements, which of course many of them sell. They’ll push back and say, I’ve meticulously sourced these supplements and they’re the best on the market, and I stand by them or whatever. But, that is in fact how they make millions of dollars in many cases, through selling supplements. So, something to consider, right? VirginiaSounds like a red flag for sure. ChristyThey’ll systematically target people in these wellness spaces and parenting spaces, as well. Recently there has been a lot more calling out of social media companies complicity with this because these anti-vax entrepreneurs would you use Facebook ads to target people and that was a very big part of how they built their audiences. Or they would use other social media platforms to get people in, to get people into their groups. And there’s been some cracking down on on anti-vax misinformation on social media, although not nearly enough. One thing I’ve seen, a few months ago with Joseph Mercola is that he’ll post something kind of wellness-y but innocuous that doesn’t seem at all related to vaccines. The body of the tweet will be like, what the shapes in your poop can tell you about your health or something. And then you click the link and the actual link go is to an anti-vax piece of content.VirginiaOh my God. It’s like putting like disinformation on top of disinformation! Also the shapes in your poop don’t tell you your horoscope or whatever he’s claiming.ChristyRight, right. No, it’s totally ridiculous. So that’s how wellness and the anti-vax movement are so intertwined. But I think even leaving aside these, I think the wellness space itself was really primed for this kind of misinformation to spread because it really preys on the idea that you shouldn’t put anything quote unquote unnatural in your body. Like, I think that’s the primary way that people get pulled into this worldview is thinking about pure food, but then it sort of bleeds over. There’s a slippery slope of that purity type of thinking to household products, makeup, skincare, anything in on or around your body, right? It has to be totally pure and meet all these arbitrary criteria. Then from there it can be a really easy slide to rhetoric around vaccines being supposedly unnatural or toxic or whatever and conspiracy theories about Big Pharma are really kind of endemic to wellness culture already.A lot of people listening to this probably are like, “Well, I’m too smart for that. I wouldn’t be vulnerable to that. I think that’s bananas,” you know. And that’s fair. And I think for many people it might be true, that the really bizarre conspiracy theories aren’t necessarily going to take you in. But I interviewed a number of former anti-vaxxers who are smart people, thoughtful people, parents, who wanted to do the best for their kids. And I think that really makes people vulnerable. VirginiaI mean, just thinking of what we were talking about at the beginning, of the anxiety about your baby choking on blueberries. Like, when you think about the baseline fear that we very naturally are living with as we’re trying to raise our children and keep them alive. We’re incredibly vulnerable. It does make sense to me that getting a little piece of this, and then you get another little piece of this. No one goes for the microchip theory first, but you can see how really smart rational people could build their way towards that. And that’s super insidious. ChristyEven if you have one or two crunchy parent types of things that you’re interested in or do. In the book, I talked to Renee DiResta who’s now a researcher studying mis- and disinformation who herself got interested in these ideas because when she had her first baby, she was looking for information about cloth diapering and making your own baby food, which were things she was interested in. Even though she isn’t like really a crunchy parent, but she had a couple of crunchy interests.VirginiaAll of this is fascinating and depressing and enraging, and making me feel many things. Like, where do we go with this? What do we do to start divesting if we’ve bought into some of these ideas and systems? What should we be advocating for instead? ChristyI think, at the societal level, we really need to make some changes to how the wellness industry is regulated to how the supplement industry is regulated to how social media is regulated. I talk a bit about that in the book. Amending section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, which is kind of in the weeds, but also a huge deal. Section 230 is called the 25 words that created the internet. It basically allows any social media company not to have the same legal requirements on it that a publisher would have. So you know how people can sue Fox News for defamation, right? They’re allowed to bring a defamation suit against a publisher because of the legal requirements on publishers to publish the truth and not defame individuals or companies. Whereas social media companies and other platforms online that host user generated content are not considered publishers of information. So, anything that users post is not subject to those same requirements. So one proposed solution is to amend the Communications Decency Act to not exempt algorithms for promoting things. Because social media algorithms amplify myths and disinformation. They have been shown to spread that farther, more widely, deeper than the truth. And that’s because these algorithms are designed to maximize engagement. They’re designed to keep people clicking.VirginiaOn the most extreme things. Christy They get engagement from people who are fighting in the comments. They keep you on the platform to be served ads longer. That’s what’s effective. It’s not done that way nefariously. These algorithms weren’t programmed to make us outraged intentionally. It’s just what happened to create the most engagement. So, if we could amend the Communications Decency Act to say platforms may not be liable for everything their users post, but they are liable for algorithmically amplifying content. VirginiaThat would be huge. ChristyAnd in fact, Congress has been debating amending Section 230 recently. So call your Congress people.Find your reps!But at the individual level, too, I think there are ways to keep yourself more safe from this kind of mis- and disinformation, both practically and also psychologically. One thing is called the SIFT check which is a method for sussing out misinformation and separating the wheat from the chaff. It was developed by a researcher at Washington State University Vancouver named Mike Caulfield who studies digital media literacy. It’s four steps: SIFT. So it’s Stop; Investigate the source; Find better coverage; and Trace claims, quotes and media to the original context. Don’t just take this one social media post as a referendum on what you should be doing.VirginiaWhich usually have no sourcing, statistics that have no citations attached. Totally just numbers that someone put on a picture in Canva.ChristyYep, exactly. The whole point of SIFT really is to have a quick check to say let me just take myself out of the flow of this information rather than deeply engaging with it because Caulfield’s point is that critical thinking is actually deeply engaging with something. That’s what disinformation wants you to do because the more you deeply engage, the more primed you are for more disinformation, right? So if you can quickly take yourself out of the flow of it, that helps you from getting indoctrinated by it and it helps also keep it from spreading.VirginiaSuch good advice and it’s something we can teach the kids, too, which I really love. It seems like a really useful tool to keep in our back pockets.ChristyTotally. Butter for for your Burnt ToastChristyI’ve been really enjoying the show Severance. I am not not super far into it yet. I’m several episodes in, so I won’t give any spoilers and anyone who’s listening don’t give any spoilers, but…VirginiaI won’t but good choice. ChristyIt’s fascinating. I think it’s also really appealing to me maybe because of my difficulty balancing work life and mom life and everything else. It’s making me think deeply and interestingly about what it means to have a separation between the two. And the fact that the messiness and the difficulty with that balance and the need to like pare down our commitments, is actually a very human thing and a very important thing. And if we are severed in our work life and personal life, the incredible harms that can cause and the way that late stage capitalism pushes us in that direction, to try to be a ton of automatons who are just working through everything. With everything that’s happened in the last several years, I think more and more people are now pushing back on that. So it’s an interesting show for this time.VirginiaOh, it’s brilliant. Brilliant. And this is not a spoiler, but I will just say when you get to the season finale, it is the most riveting 45 minutes of television I can remember watching in years. Dan and I were just mouths open the entire time, like what is happening! I was so tense, but it was in a good way. So it’s a great recommendation for anyone who hasn’t gotten there and season two is coming soon. ChristyExactly. Then you can get in there.VirginiaSo my recommendation is a really great YA novel I just read called Love Is a Revolution by Renee Watson. The main character is Nala who is black plus-sized girl in living in Harlem, and her relationships with her friends and her family. It’s so great because it centers a fat character but it is not about her weight. That’s just there. At one point somebody says something about, like, does she like her body and she’s like, stop assuming I don’t like my body just because I’m fat. Like, go away. I’ve been very into light and comforting reads in the last, oh, I don’t know, five years. Maybe because a lot of the time what we do for work is heavy and I need escape. But I’m also always looking for great fat representation and this definitely checks all of those boxes. So anyone looking for a great weekend read. And I would say totally appropriate for 10-11 and up, for sure, for kids. ChristyThat’s awesome. I’m going to check that out, too.VirginiaChristy, thank you so much. This was great. Everyone, of course, needs to go get The Wellness Trap anywhere you buy books. Tell us how else we can support you and support your work.ChristyYeah, thank you so much for having me. It’s such a great conversation. People can find me at my website, Christyharrison.com. I also now have not one but two podcasts. I have a new podcast calledRethinking Wellness with Christy Harrisonthat continues the conversation about all these things we’ve been talking about. I was just so fascinated by everyone I interviewed for the book and wanted a space to continue those conversations. So definitely you can check that out wherever you’re listening to this.VirginiaPerfect thank you so much, Christy. This was wonderful.ChristyThank you so much, Virginia.

FAT TALK is now out in the world! To celebrate, Corinne is here to chat with Virginia about the writing and reporting process. If you love what you hear, you can order the hardcover, ebook, or audiobook (or if you’re in the UK and the Commonwealth, the paperback) anywhere you buy books. Split Rock has signed copies (feel free to request a personal inscription!). If you want more conversations like this one, please rate and review us in your podcast player! And become a paid Burnt Toast subscriber to get all of Virginia's reporting and bonus subscriber-only episodes. Disclaimer: Virginia and Corinne are humans with a lot of informed opinions. They are not nutritionists, therapists, doctosr, or any kind of health care providers. The conversation you're about to hear and all of the advice and opinions they give are just for entertainment, information, and education purposes only. None of this is a substitute for individual medical or mental health advice.LINKSThe Eating InstinctDiet Coke, obviously.a great review in the Washington PostRead an excerpt from Chapter 11 herelast week’s podcastAmyLynn Steger StrongAubrey GordonSabrina StringsDa'Shaun HarrisonMarquisele MercedesGirls and Sex and Boys and Sex by Peggy OrensteinVirginia's sensitivity reader Doman excerpt of the dads chapter in The AtlanticThe Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith. Follow Virginia on Instagram or Twitter. Burnt Toast transcripts and essays are edited and formatted by Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, an Instagram account where you can buy and sell plus size clothing. The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe. Our theme music is by Jeff Bailey and Chris Maxwell. Tommy Harron is our audio engineer. Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!VirginiaYou’re listening to Burnt Toast! This is the podcast about diet culture, fatphobia, parenting, and health. I’m Virginia Sole-Smith. I also write the Burnt Toast newsletter.CorinneAnd I’m Corinne Fay. I work on Burnt Toast and run Selltradeplus. I am super excited because today we’re talking about FAT TALK, which is officially out this week. I thought it would be fun to ask Virginia some questions about writing the book and that whole process—because it has been a process.Order FAT TALK here!VirginiaIt has been a process. And you have been along for a lot of the process! I appreciate you. I appreciate you doing this. Thank you. CorinneI’m really excited to hear a little more behind the scenes and I think our little Burnt Toasties will be excited, too. VirginiaIt’s a little weird to be interviewed on your own podcast, but let’s do it. I’m into it! This is stuff you’re not going to hear in the other media coverage. It is Burnt Toast exclusive content!CorinneSo, this is your second book. I’m really curious about how the idea for this one came about.VirginiaAfter I wrote The Eating Instinct I was doing press and events and talking to people. I was hearing a lot from parents, in particular. It was a little surprising to me because I don’t think of that one as a parenting book, although my motherhood story is in it, but it has a lot of non-parenting stuff, too. But that’s definitely who gravitated to the book. So, I was hearing these questions over and over from folks. “What do I do about my kid and food and my kid and weight and what the doctor says?” and all the things we always talk about. It became clear to me that people were really saying, “I want my kid to have a good relationship with food. I want them to love their body. I don’t want them to get an eating disorder. But I don’t want them to be fat.” And we can’t have it both ways.You can’t encourage a child to have a healthy relationship with food and body if we are only allowing certain bodies to have that. That’s where I realized, in a way, The Eating Instinct did not go far enough. It started with food, which I think is the place a lot of people start with this work, but what we had to get to is anti-fat bias. That’s the bedrock of the whole conversation. So I thought, oh, I need to write a book for parents about anti-fat bias. Like what it is, why you have it, how to unlearn it, how to raise kids in a world that throws so much of that at us.CorinneThat makes a lot of sense. How did you start the writing process? Was there a first sentence or a first chapter you wrote? Did you make an outline first? Where does it all begin?VirginiaI actually tried to write a totally different book after The Eating Instinct for a while. That’s something that I think only me and my agent know. I thought I was going to write a book about girl culture and girlhood… I don’t really remember. It didn’t work. So I spent a long time writing that proposal and I knew it wasn’t going to work. I sent it to my agent—and I love my agent, we have a great relationship. But when something’s not working, she does not email me back super fast. Some time went by and it was also COVID. I think I got it to her in early 2020 and then the pandemic hit and everything was crazy. But she was like, “Yeah, this isn’t hanging together as a book. There’s no hook.”I’m trying to remember when I had the epiphany of like, oh, wait, it’s Fat Talk, that’s the book. Well, originally I was calling it Fat Kid Phobia. But that concept came to me at some point in 2020. And of course, I had zero child care. I was potty training a two-year-old and house training a puppy and trapped in my house with both of them. So the book proposal was definitely happening around the edges of the chaos of COVID lockdown. But once this book came to me, it was so much clearer.I spent months slogging through the proposal for the idea that didn’t work. And this proposal I was able to—when we finally got some childcare later in 2020—just bang out in two weeks. It really came together fast. I think that’s often a sign for me that I’m actually headed in the right direction, if writing does not feel super slow and torturous. In order to sell a nonfiction book, you write a very full proposal that includes an outline. So you kind of have to do an outline whether you like outlining or not. As a writer, I—it will probably not surprise people to know—do like outlining for big projects. I’m a somewhat compulsively organized human being. Corinne knows there’s a lot of spreadsheets in my life, color coded things. CorinneSome really beautiful work in Excel. VirginiaYes, thank you.So you do have to do an outline. And I just want to say: Writing a book proposal is the worst. It’s the hardest, most horrible part of the process because you’re basically trying to put together a whole book that you haven’t researched yet. You don’t actually know everything that you need to know. So it feels like you’re making it up and there’s a lot of impostor syndrome.Because it was my second book, I did not have to write a sample chapter. Usually, you have to write a sample chapter, as well. So that was nice. My agent was like, “They know you can write a book now.” But you have to write this whole overview that explains what the book is, and who the reader is, and why it matters, and why now, and all of these things. Then you have to do a table of contents and detailed chapter summaries. So I had done all of that and once I had the contract and it was time to start working on it, I did have the outline to work from. I was basically taking it chapter by chapter—except I always leave the introduction for last. That I don’t write until the very end. So the first sentence of chapter one is the first sentence I wrote, which is very linear. There were other chapters where I started it one way and then threw that out and found a different way. That definitely happens. It’s not so paint by number. But for getting it started, the outline was really, really helpful. I was also doing all the reporting, finding sources, doing all the interviews. And that was really different this time around because of COVID. I wasn’t doing any in person interviews, really. It was all over Zoom which is such a different reporting experience after doing years of in person reporting, but I ended up really liking it. I could talk to way more people because I didn’t have to travel to them. And unless people blur their backgrounds, you do immediately get dropped into someone’s life in a nice way, whereas if you meet them in a coffee shop or something you don’t always have that sense of them.CorinneYeah, that is interesting.VirginiaSo from January 2021 through June 2022. It was just slogging through chapter after chapter, researching, writing, researching, writing. Rinse, repeat.CorinneAnd while you’re writing, do you have a spot that you like to write? Is it your office? Is it somewhere else? A dreamy Airbnb?VirginiaGod, I wish. No, I am not that romantic writer. I’ve never been to a writer’s retreat. I would love to but I feel like I’m just not cool enough for that. Plus, they don’t usually involve childcare. They seem like something that’s great for single men. If folks know about good writer retreats for moms, hit me up because I would go to one. But no, I write in my office right here where I’m sitting talking to you. This is where it all happens.I don’t actually like to work outside of my office in my house. I have a funny video from midway through COVID of me working on the couch because, again, we had no childcare, and Beatrix who was two-and-a-half, repeatedly closing my laptop saying, “Mama no work.” Me sobbing like, “But I have to work.” Funny memory. Trauma. Anyway!I prefer to work in my office and keep that work/life division but often because I’m with my kids after school, I’m bringing my laptop downstairs to finish stuff in the living room while they’re getting snacks. My boundaries are not perfect, but that’s the idea. I do a lot of early morning writing, too. I just find I can get like 2000 words written in two hours in the morning if I start at like 5am. And if I started at 9am, the same 2000 words will take me three days. I don’t understand what it is, just so many more distractions. Something about that early morning time is helpful. CorinneInteresting. And what about snacks? Any snacks that made Fat Talk possible?VirginiaChocolate chips! Ghirardelli semi-sweet chocolate chips by the bowlful. They are really important to my process.CorinneBeverages? VirginiaDiet Coke, obviously.CorinneOh right, I forgot.VirginiaThis book definitely ran on Diet Coke. So much Diet Coke. Extra toasty cheez-its. When I’m in intense, head-down, book-writing mode I don’t have a lot of time for food prep. So it is very grab-and-go. Oh, and here I have one on my desk right now: Uncrustables. My little snack for later.CorinneNot just for kids? VirginiaNo, I think uncrustables are like the unsung genius. They’re tasty. They’re portable. They’re very efficient. If you like a power bar or one of those things, an Uncrustable is the same concept. It’s just peanut butter.CorinneOkay, I need to try.VirginiaThey’re delicious. They’re in a little pillow of bread. What’s not to love?CorinneSounds good!I feel like a really important part of Fat Talk is all the stories and interviews and anecdotes that are within the chapters. I’m so curious about how those work. How do you find people to interview? What are the logistics—you mentioned Zoom? And is it ever super awkward? Because I imagine it would be.VirginiaYeah, it’s really changed a lot over the years. This is probably the aspect of my professional life that has been most impacted by the internet and the way we live now.When I started my career as a journalist, if you worked in women’s magazines, finding we called them “real people stories” was the bedrock of every feature. You always had to have your real people’s stories. Often, at Marie Claire or whatever, it was sending a junior editor like me out into Times Square. There’s a story I did—one of my real, real proud moments as a women’s magazine story writer—was my first coverline piece, which was “I Dumped Him During Sex!” where I found a bachelorette party in Times Square to get their wildest breakup stories, one of which was the girl who broke up with her boyfriend during sex.CorinneI could see why that was a coverline. I am buying that magazine.VirginiaI know, it was very compelling. My editor was really happy with me. I mean, it fell apart fast in fact checking because she was sober when we had to call back to fact check. We did manage to keep it, I think we changed her name because the next day, she was like, “I do not want to be quoted telling that story.” And I was like, “Why? I can’t imagine!”Traditional journalism was that man-on-the-street or drunk-bachelorette-on-the-street reporting. And obviously, now I live in the woods so that’s not how my life works anymore. Thank God, honestly. That was not my proudest moment.Then it shifted to doing a lot of call-outs on social media. And it is weird because you feel like you’re casting almost sometimes. You’re like, “I want to write a story about this so I need to find someone who’s experienced this.” And you have to think how to word the call out in order to connect with people who will resonate with the story, but not so that you’re like manipulating who will respond to you. You put a lot of thought into how to explain the story in vague  yet enticing terms. I don’t know, it’s very strange. So for this, it was a lot of me posting. I would do it on my own social media, I would put the call outs on Burnt Toast, so there are a lot of Burnt Toast readers who contributed stories to the book!Corinne Oh, cool!VirginiaBut also Facebook Mom groups and different Health at Every Size or fat activism groups on Facebook were really useful. Just trying to find the forums where people people who would resonate with the topics are already talking about this stuff and might have stories that they want to share. It is interesting, because some people love talking to a journalist and are really excited to open up their lives and some people think they like the idea and then when you actually get on Zoom or on the phone with them, it suddenly feels incredibly invasive. Which is very valid because it is very invasive. You know, it’s really tough. I think that’s the awkward part.  I really care about my sources and I really care about them feeling safe and feeling good about sharing their story, especially in a book like Fat Talk. I even care about that drunk bachelorette and I should not have interviewed her. That was a violation of trust between us, having met in the bar that night. Especially for the type of reporting that this book is, where I was often going back and having multiple conversations with a family, interviewing different members of a family, getting to know them over a few months.I feel really protective of them and I have to balance that with, I need to ask certain questions, or pull out certain details in order for the story to work and make sense to the reader who doesn’t know them and needs to be brought into this full picture of their lives. So it is a weird tension. The best you can do is just try to make clear that you are trying to do justice to their story. It usually helps for folks to care about the issue and want to help raise awareness. There have been times in my career where I’ve been like, yeah, that was our goal but I don’t know that we achieved it and you still had to tell this really personal story. The other thing that we did in this book was we changed the names of all the kids and any grownups affiliated with the kids, unless they were someone who had already been public with their story in a different article or something. Because I just really felt—and my editor agreed with this, too—that if you’re 14 and you talk to me about your eating disorder, that doesn’t need to show up in your Google results ten years from now.CorinneTotally.VirginiaWe ended up even changing names of people who probably didn’t care, didn’t even have like a super personal story. But I was like, let’s just do it across the board and protect people. I feel good about that. CorinneWhen you go into interviews with these people, do they know what the book is about? Like, are you like “I’m writing a book about anti-fat bias” or are you just like, “I’m writing a book about food.” Do they know your perspective?VirginiaI feel like that was important for people to understand, because this is a book that will get some pushback. I mean, it just got a great review in the Washington Post which is so lovely and then there are 800 garbage comments in the comment section, just like total dumpster fire of comments. So I did want people to understand this is a book that brings out anti-fat trolls. That was another reason for changing names, right? The last thing I want is any of those people finding these kids or their parents who have been through enough, and bringing that to them. So I would always give a little spiel and sometimes send links to my previous work and my other book.The traditional journalism rules are like, be super impartial and reveal nothing about yourself and be this blank slate for your sources. And in this day and age and with this kind of project, I feel that is ethically dubious. I think that journalism can have a perspective. Certainly the journalism I do is activism-journalism, kind of a hybrid approach, and people can understand that. I mean, not every source agreed with me for sure. There was one woman where we had an interview where she was really eager to dismantle diet culture and talk about how it impacted her life and how she didn’t want to pass it on to her kids. And when I circled back to her months later, she was like, “I’m taking my child to a weight loss clinic.” She was in a totally different place with it. And that’s really heartbreaking, but that’s her story and her right, of course.CorinneNow that the book is out there, do you have a favorite chapter?VirginiaThat is really hard, Corinne! That’s like do you have a favorite kid or a favorite book.CorinneOkay, okay. VirginiaI don’t know. Do you have a favorite chapter?CorinneI would have to revisit the table of contents, but there are definitely stories that I read that have really stuck with me.VirginiaI’m curious which ones. CorinneDefinitely the one about the parents who were locking up Oreos. VirginiaYeah. The lockbox.CorinneI have spent a lot of time thinking about those kids and that family. VirginiaThat family was amazing to work with. They were really open. I got to interview the mom, the dad, and both kids, and we’ve stayed in touch. They taught me a lot. That’s the “Snack Monsters and Sugar Addicts” chapter. I also really love chapter 11: “I Got Taller and Gymnastics Got Scarier,” about anti-fatness in youth sports and dance. (Read an excerpt from Chapter 11 here.)CorinneI like that one, too. That one was really good. VirginiaI was nervous to write it because I did feel like I had to check a lot of my own biases, as someone who hates sports and never played sports and never wanted to play sports and don’t really understand the function of sports in our society as a force for good. I did have to sort of dig deep because I just want to be like, “it doesn’t matter. Just don’t play sports. They’re terrible.” Because that’s not where most people are on that topic.And so I had to really think about like, Okay, what do sports offer kids in terms of relationships with their bodies? Like, what’s positive about it? Oh, wow, fat kids are actually missing out on a whole ton of things because of this. And also, let’s talk about all the toxicity and the hustle culture and deciding that kids bodies are this tool for coaches to manipulate however they want. There’s so much there.Are you a sports person? I don’t know this about you.CorinneI played a few sports, at least at the beginning of high school. And then I kind of dropped out of them all by my senior year when I was just like, “I’m more of like an arts person.” But I do kind of regret it because I do feel like you get a lot from sports. Like, I feel like there’s camaraderie and also just the opportunity to find joy in moving your body, which I think I did and really lost for a while.VirginiaI don’t think I ever experienced that as a kid because I was unathletic and self-labeled as unathletic and then reinforced as unathletic. Gym class was just a torture zone to me. Like, I was mortified to be there all the time. From really early on, from like first and second grade, I can remember just being horrified of gym class. CorinneYeah, there are some really young kids who go to the gym I go to—I think they work with some high school programs? And I always just wonder, what if I had discovered this when I was 17 instead of 37? VirginiaI do feel like the focus on team sports is really misguided in that way, because so few adults can play team sports. If we’re really trying to foster a love of movement for kids, shouldn’t we be focusing on things that you do in an individual way? That you can easily do as an adult? That are accessible? CorinneOr team sports that are for the joy of it rather than like, can we beat the next town over and anyone who can’t run a mile in six minutes is going to be cut and you should be barfing after every race or whatever.VirginiaThere’s a funny thing. It’s not in that chapter actually, it’s in the dads chapter. But one of the dads I interviewed talked about being a wrestler in high school and how in order to make weight they would chew tobacco and spit. Because if you could spit enough, you could lose water weight. And I was just like, I mean, if there was ever an example of how youth sports are not centering children’s health! Because this was a totally fine practice, like his teachers would be like, “Great. Just go sit in the corner. You got to spit because we got to go to states.”CorinneWhat about other highs and lows of writing fat talk? Are there times where you were like, “This is amazing. I can’t believe I am doing this.”? And I’m sure there were also times where you were like, “I’m giving up.”VirginiaMore of those, I think. I don’t love all the book writing motherhood metaphor stuff, but it is a little bit like childbirth, where I think I’ve blacked out a lot of it. Like, I am like talking to you about the schedule and I’m like, how was I getting that done? I don’t understand.VirginiaChapter one was really hard to write. Chapter one is the longest chapter in the book. Folks are going to have heard it on last week’s podcast because we’re doing the audiobook excerpt. And it was a lot of reporting. It was really when I sat down and wrestled into the ground the arguments about weight and health and like how the childhood obesity epidemic is in many ways a government and media creation. I think I was really afraid to wrap my head fully around all of those arguments before I did that chapter. Then once I did it, the first draft of it was like 20,000 words long. It was so long. And it was like, I gotta rein it in a little. Some of this is actually chapter two. But I remember just feeling like, okay, now I can get through the rest of this book. I think, for so many of us, as you work your way through being anti-diet and getting into fat liberation and all of this. There are these third rail arguments that you’re always afraid to have, where you freak out when people say this. Like, what do I say when someone says, But what about health? And that was the chapter. I was like, I have to look at all of those and figure out how to knock them all down. And I wasn’t sure I could before I got into it. So that was a high. The lows were more related to the stress of writing a book on top of running a newsletter on top of—I think for at least the first chunk, I was still freelancing. And having two children who I’m supposed to be raising. The time management stuff. There was a real womp-womp moment. I turned in the manuscript, the first draft of the manuscript at the end of June 2022 and I thought I wouldn’t have to start revises until September so I was like, I’m gonna have my summer. It’s going to be so chill. This is great. I can come up for air. I was very burned out. It been like so much work to get that book written. And then they were like, so Labor Day for revises? And I was just like, I oh my god I have to get back into it so fast. I had a week of decompressing before my editor sent the draft back and was like, “Okay, now we need…”And thankfully her notes were pretty minimal. That was like when I had you read it, your notes were excellent. And Amy read it and gave me a lot of notes and my friend Lynn Steger Strong, who is a brilliant novelist, read it. Then I was taking everybody’s notes and trying to put it all back together. It wasn’t torture, but I was aware of being very at capacity at that point. So that was a little bit of a low.I think you think of book writing as just writing the book and done, but there’s all the prewriting and proposal, then there is writing, and there is revising. And then pretty much as soon as you’re done with revising, it’s time to start planning for the launch. CorinneWhat about anyone whose work really influenced this book? VirginiaEvery major fat activist, for sure. You know, Marilyn Wann, we’ve talked about our love for her. Ragen Chastain. Aubrey Gordon, obviously. Sabrina Strings, Da'Shaun Harrison, Marquisele Mercedes. There is just a list of people that I’m constantly learning from. In terms of thinking about the structure and the writing of the book, I think Peggy Orenstein’s journalism is a model that I use a lot. Her Girls and Sex and Boys and Sex were so well done. The way she balances narrative and argument is something I’ve really studied a lot and try to model my work on. I think it’s really easy for these books to either be all polemic and rant or very research heavy and dense and hard to get through. I think what I bring to the table is the narrative piece. I think a lot about how to weave it all together. And yeah, Peggy’s work is a big influence on me for that.Shop the Burnt Toast Bookstore!CorinneYeah, that makes sense. If you could ask one person in the world to read this book who would it be?VirginiaI feel like it’s Michelle Obama. CorinneOh, I love that answer. VirginiaBut I think she’s going to be mad at me about chapter one. She is the most well known and obviously the person with the most influence in terms of progressives who centered on childhood obesity as their fight, when they should have been fighting poverty and inequities. I talk a lot about how that contributed to all of the fearmongering around childhood obesity, that we all grew up with and that parents today carry so much around. I also really try to do justice to the fact that her own body has been the source of so much scrutiny and racism and anti-fatness. And this is something my sensitivity reader Dom was really helpful in making sure I really pulled out in the draft. Because I think it makes sense with the narrative that she grew up with around bodies and then the way her body and her daughter’s bodies were like products for our country to dissect was horrific. And also, I would love her to keep pushing on this. I see it now in her new book, the way she still talks about bodies. There’s a very, like, girl boss kind of attitude towards that. And I’m just like, Oh, we’re not quite there. And Michelle, you could do so much good on this. I would just love her to become an anti-fat bias activist.CorinneWell, as we discussed, there’s a big part of the book beyond writing, which is editing. Is there anything that didn’t make it into the book that you were really sad about leaving out? VirginiaThe funny thing is, I’ve written thousands of words that didn’t make it into this book. I always copy and paste and drop them into another document because at the time, I’m like, this is so important and I can’t believe I’m cutting it and I’m going to need it. It’s just so painful to me to take this out. And now I cannot tell you one thing that is in that folder, like I have no idea. CorinneMmm, interesting. VirginiaI know I cut some stuff that felt super important and now it’s just gone. But what I will say was harder was I did interview lots of people whose stories didn’t make it into the book, like didn’t even make it into the first draft. And I do think about some of those. There are a lot of those narratives that I would have loved to include. Like I interviewed this really great trans dad about his body journey and how diet culture shows up in the trans community and his relationship with his kids and all of that, and it just didn’t end up fitting. The dads chapter ended up being about straight white dads. (Read an excerpt of the dads chapter in The Atlantic!)I wanted to really deal with that cis male Peter Attia hyper macho narrative and I didn’t find another space to get into trans dads. And it felt weird to do a chapter just on trans dads. And you know, that’s not my story to tell. That’s one interview I was just thinking about the other week. I was like, oh, I didn’t get him in and that was such a great conversation, and it did influence all of those conversations. There’s a mom in Indiana, I’m thinking about, too, who didn’t make it in. There was fascinating stuff about her childhood growing up poor and food insecure. And all these different stories, the essence of them still really informed the book. But this is a really long book. It’s like 120,000 words. And if I had included everyone I wanted, it would have been like 200,000 words, and no one would read it.CorinneDon’t be disheartened! It’s an easy read.VirginiaThank you, Corinne. I appreciate that. CorinneIt moves along. VirginiaIt’s a zippy read, right?CorinneIt’s a zippy read. There we go. Okay, well, I almost hate to ask you this. But how long before you start thinking about your next book? Or you already thinking about it? VirginiaAhh, no. No.Corinne It’s like asking seniors what they’re going to do after they graduate.VirginiaNot okay with that question. My children feel really sorry for me that I don’t write children’s books. And they bring this up often. At dinner the other night, Beatrix said to me, “Are there no pictures in Fat Talk?” And I said, “there are no pictures.” And she goes, “and there are no pop-ups?” And I was like, “there are no pop-ups.” And she was like, “really?? Not one pop-up? Maybe a little pop-up?” She was so sorry for me. CorinneI love that so much.VirginiaShe just made a book in kindergarten that she brought home to show me that does have pictures and a pop-up page.CorinneJust a suggestion, mom.VirginiaYes. She just really wanted to be clear that it’s nice that I have this book, but she has published hers with pop ups and I just haven’t quite achieved that yet. CorinneIs this your way of telling us you’re going to write a children’s book with pop ups?VirginiaI think I’m absolutely not going to do that. But I will say one of the questions I get asked most often is about this gap in kid’s lit. I think it’s improving, to be honest. I think we’ve had lots of great children’s and YA authors on the podcast, that we are getting more and more options. But I haven’t seen a Fat Talk for kids. I don’t think it would have pop-ups. I think it would probably be for older kids, but that’s something I’ve pondered, how to engage kids directly in questions of anti fat bias.CorinneI love that idea. VirginiaYeah, but I’ve gotten no further with it. I mean, writing for kids is a whole different genre and skill set. So bottom line, no. I have no ideas. There are things kicking around. My daughter would like a pop up book. That’s as far as I’ve gotten.CorinneBottom line, please leave me alone.VirginiaIt is a terrible question. CorinneI know, I’m sorry.VirginiaI’m just trying to get through this. It took me a while after The Eating Instinct to find this book. I’m going to just trust that the next one will show up eventually.CorinneI can’t wait to hear what it is when it happens.VirginiaEventually, somehow. With or without pop-ups.Thank you for doing this. This was really fun! Thank you guys so much for listening to Burnt Toast.CorinneIf you’d like to support the show, please subscribe for free in your podcast player and leave us a rating or review. These really helps folks find the show.