The Burnt Toast Podcast [PREVIEW] "This Was Before It Was Normal for Makeup to Give You New Skin."
It's our February Ask Us Anything episode! We're covering body autonomy for kids, 90s makeup icons, body feelings, and the dreaded business casual.
If you are already a paid subscriber, you’ll have this entire episode in your podcast feed and access to the entire transcript in your inbox and on the Burnt Toast Patreon.
If you are not a paid subscriber, you'll only get the first chunk. To hear the whole conversation or read the whole transcript, you'll need to go paid.
Also, don't forget to preorder Virginia's new book! Fat Talk: Parenting In the Age of Diet Culture comes out April 25, 2023 from Henry Holt. Preorder your signed copy now from Split Rock Books (they ship anywhere in the USA). You can also order it from your independent bookstore, or from Barnes & Noble, Amazon, Target, Kobo or anywhere you like to buy books.
Disclaimer: Virginia is a journalist and human with a lot of informed opinions. Virginia is not a nutritionist, therapist, doctor, or any kind of health care provider. The conversation you're about to hear and all of the advice and opinions she gives are just for entertainment, information, and education purposes only. None of this is a substitute for individual medical or mental health advice.
BUTTER & OTHER LINKS
Draper James dresses
You Fat-Shamed Your Beautiful Girlfriend
Glennon Doyle Indigo Girls episode
Sonya Renee Taylor episode
CREDITS
The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith. Follow Virginia on Instagram or Twitter. Burnt Toast transcripts and essays are edited and formatted by Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, an Instagram account where you can buy and sell plus size clothing. The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe. Our theme music is by Jeff Bailey and Chris Maxwell. Tommy Harron is our audio engineer. Thanks for listening and for supporting independent anti-diet journalism.
Episode 82 Transcript
Virginia
Last month, people were like, “tell us your favorite breakfast!” This month, people are like, “can we dive down deep in this rabbit hole?” We’ve got some very rich conversations to get into today. Do you want to read the first one?
Corinne
I do. Okay:
My 4-year-old stepdaughter goes to a wonderful preschool that teaches her phrases like “I get to do what feels good in my body,” presumably in contexts like deciding how much to eat and which physical activities to participate in. However, at home, she deploys these phrases in basically every situation where we tell her no. “No you can’t put muffins in the hot oven,” is met with “it’s my body, I can choose.” When, “I know you want to wear your red dress, but it’s in the wash” set her off on a “but I get to do what feels good in my body” tirade, I tried explaining that getting to decide what feels good in one’s body is only for certain situations. But I totally failed at clarifying this to her satisfaction. Any advice?
Signed, Associate Justice of the Preschool Supreme Court.
Virginia
I love this kid so much. I’m also raising two of these kids. I just feel you because I have had this thrown back at me over toothbrushing. And oh my god, hair brushing! Don’t get me started on the nightmare that is hair brushing in my house.
So I don’t know that I have really good advice because I feel like this is maybe just part of raising someone with body autonomy. Four is an age where they are going to push back. They’re going to start making these arguments. You kind of have to just roll with it, because it’s all part of them getting this autonomy.
Obviously, I get that you didn’t want her to put the muffins in the hot oven and that you cannot take a wet dress out of a washing machine to be worn. These lines also get used over things like car seats or shots, where we have to do this for health and safety.
But often, when my kids throw this at me, I try to take a moment and think, “How can I give them a little more control over the situation?” Sometimes I am trying too hard to control something. Is it the end of the world if they go to school with tangled hair? Probably not.
It comes up a lot with seasonally appropriate dressing. This morning, I suggested that 27 degrees was a morning to wear a hat and mittens and maybe even legwarmers over your leggings to the bus stop. And one of my children felt strongly it was not that weather. But then we got out to the bus stop, she was very cold and very unhappy about it. While it was, of course, not the most fun little journey we went on, I was like well, body autonomy means you get to decide if you’re cold but it also means you can learn from the experience of being cold at the bus stop. Sometimes just giving up and letting them get it wrong can be really helpful. Because maybe they will make a different choice or maybe they will just be cold a lot of the time but that’s okay.
What are your thoughts about this?
Corinne
It just comes down to how much you want to argue, I guess?
Virginia
Well, and there’s no winning an argument with a preschooler.
Corinne
Or how much time or energy you have to put into having a discussion about it.
Virginia
I do think with something like the hot oven, or shots at the doctor, seatbelts—you can have a conversation where you say, “When your health and safety is at stake, grownups who love you make decisions about your body. You are in control of your body, but you’re also a kid and we take care of you. If you’re going to do something that’s dangerous, we have to stop you. But we will always look for as many opportunities for you to have control in that situation.”
With the muffins in the hot oven, could she—even if you’re the one putting the tray in the oven—could she open and close the door for you? Can she preheat the oven and turn the light on and watch the timer and have some other ownership about the experience? With shots at the doctor’s office, they can pick which arm it goes in. They can pick if they want to sit on your lap or not. Claire Lerner, who is a child psychologist I really love, always talks about how you give them two great choices. So you have to do X, but under the umbrella of This Is Happening, you can choose a couple of things.” And I think that can can definitely help.
Otherwise, just be really proud! You’re doing a great job and your kid is going to be awesome at life. This is the price we pay for encouraging them to be in charge of their own bodies.
Corinne
It does seem like the benefit of teaching them about that probably outweighs the really annoying moments. Hopefully, in the long run.
Virginia
I would love teeth brushing and hairbrushing to be less sources of strife in my life.
I can read the next one:
I noticed that when I see myself in a mirror outside my own home, in a public restroom or whatever, I look way fatter than I did at home—sometimes only 20 minutes earlier. Does this ever happen to you? And what do you think is going on? It can feel so upsetting to leave home feeling pretty okay with myself only to be floored by disappointment.
Corinne
I feel like sometimes at home, you’re more comfortable, and you have your mirror setup and you’re used to how you look. And then sometimes, if you’re out in public and you see your reflection, it’s like a weird angle that you don’t usually see or like, the wind is blowing.
Virginia
Yeah, you’re used to how you look in mirrors at home and mirrors out in the world—
Corinne
It’s like a candid photo or something. You can’t control your angles. I can’t say this happens to me, but I can understand why it would be disturbing.
Virginia
It used to happen to me when I was in a more fraught relationship with my body, so I can relate to it. I can remember being in my 20s, living in New York, feeling good about my little outfit to go to my magazine job in the apartment, and then passing my reflection in the Starbucks window and being like, oh my god, this is not what I thought I was walking out of the house like.
It’s something to take seriously because it does indicate that you are body checking more than is probably good for you or at least in a way that sounds distressing. So it’s definitely something, if you’re working with a therapist or you have people in your life who you know are good for talking through these kinds of things, definitely get support. It’s something to examine, I think.
Corinne
Would it be more helpful to try to avoid mirrors, avoid reflections, or to try to just accept that no matter how your reflection looks, you’re still yourself and who cares?
Virginia
Well, you may have to do some avoiding while you work on getting to the accepting, right? It’s probably not an either or. When we all first were getting used to Zoom—and sometimes still—hiding your Zoom face felt important because staring at your zoom face all day long was just a whole new level of scrutiny. We did not evolve as humans to see our own faces.
Corinne
Right. And it’s hard to look away sometimes. I always just turn off my face on Zoom, because otherwise I will just stare at it.
Virginia
Yeah, I’m staring at myself right now because I haven’t done that. I mean, I’m looking at you, too. I go back and forth constantly. So I definitely think there’s some merit to minimizing opportunities for this.
Maybe it’s also just taking a moment to notice that you’re doing that and that you don’t have to stay in that place. You don’t have to judge yourself for having that reaction. You can just be like, Oh, there I go again. When I see myself in a new mirror, I feel weird. Here we are. Then it’s a little more detached. It’s a little more like, fair enough. That’s how I respond, but I don’t have to let this define my day or whatever.
Corinne
And I think we’ve talked about this before, but it could be another moment of like, “Well, I have a lot of other great qualities. Might be looking fat and weird, but I’m still cool.”
Virginia
Right. Looking the way you looked in your home mirror is not a requirement for the rest of your day. You don’t have to maintain that specific slice of how you look 24 hours a day. That’s not realistic.
Corinne
And you have other great qualities that aren’t reflected in the mirror.
What are some easy coping mechanisms/self care? I have two littles and finding myself only able to use food to soothe when I’m feeling big feelings. I recovered from an eating disorder 10 years ago, but this pattern has come back in the afternoons when we’re all having a snack and I’m hungry and also just done being on for the day.
Virginia
So I want to just throw in the disclaimer that we are not eating disorder professionals. If you are concerned that this is feeling very reminiscent of eating disorder behaviors, definitely talk to a professional who can help you work that out.
But what I will say is, I don’t think that using food to soothe at the end of a hard day with small children is at all a thing to feel bad about. It sounds like a pretty reasonable response to long days.
Corinne
And you also said you’re hungry.
Virginia
Right, feeding yourself because you’re hungry and also tired and cranky. All good.
Corinne
I read this and I was like, “I think you need to be having a snack sooner!” It sounds like you’re getting to like a bad point.
Virginia
Right. And did you eat lunch? Did you hear Corinne and me last month, talking about how much we love breakfast?
Corinne
Are you eating a huge breakfast?
Virginia
Which you don’t have to, if that’s not your thing. But I hear this from so many moms in particular, that it’s easy to not feed yourself enough during the day when you’re taking care of kids because you’re so busy with all of their demands.
Dan is the worst at this! Dan’s breakfast every morning is whatever the kids have leftover. He’s eating scraps of Eggo waffles and then it’s like, why is he grumpy?
Corinne
Dan! You deserve better.
Virginia
Absolutely. If your lunch was the crusts of a peanut butter and jelly sandwich, I am not surprised that at four o’clock you are starving and eating a lot of food.
Corinne
It could also be the sort of like binge/restrict thing. Maybe if you’re feeling a little out of control, it’s because you’re like past the point of needing to eat, right? Like you waited too long and now it’s a desperate situation.
Virginia
You’re also soothing big feelings. And again, I just want to say, that’s valid. Food is a helpful tool for soothing big feelings. We can’t sit in big feelings all the time. Sometimes we need a little break and for something to feel good while we’re also feeling sad and annoyed with our children.
If you feel like this is absolutely your only strategy for dealing with big feelings, that’s where like, you deserve more tools. This doesn’t have to be your only tool. You deserve support, you deserve conversations with people who love you who can hear how you’re feeling, you deserve a therapist. You deserve just other options. You deserve someone to take care of your kids so that you can get a break—whether that’s a partner or childcare or something.
So I think, don’t worry so much about the food piece. Definitely eat when you’re hungry, probably eat earlier in the day and see how that helps. But like, if you’re struggling being a parent of two small children, you are not alone and you really deserve support on that.
In terms of your question about what are some other easy coping mechanisms? I’m just trying to think what I do when I’m really done with a long day with my kids, and a lot of it is texting friends. I actually have multiple groups: my local mom friends, my far away mom friends, whoever I feel like I can most dump how obnoxious the day has been. Talking to my partner. Finding a way to get outside often really helps. Like, it’s so annoying that that’s true. But even if it’s like, I leave the kids inside and I go stand out in the garden for a few minutes. That really helps me.
Putting your children on screen time is very helpful. My kids get their screen time in the hour before dinner on weekdays.
Corinne
That’s so smart.
Virginia
They’re terrible at that hour. They are their least likable selves. And I adore my children, but we’re just all our worst selves. We’re hungry. We’re grumpy. The day has been long, you know? So they get their screen time and I put on music I want to hear or a podcast while I’m cooking dinner and just having that separation and feeling like zero guilt about it is a really good strategy.
Corinne
I definitely also thought, go outside. Sometimes taking a shower can be a quick mood change.
Virginia
Yes. Lock the bathroom door.
Corinne
Maybe my strategies aren’t super kid-friendly.
Virginia
No, no, it’s fine. You are allowed to lock the door against your children when you are going to shower or pee.
This next question is semi-related, so I thought we could segue into it. This person writes:
What are your thoughts on food rewards? If I’m having a hard day or achieve something big or small, my impulse is to buy myself a croissant from the fancy bakery about it. I worry sometimes that I’m setting myself up to only let myself get croissants when I’m experiencing heightened emotion of one kind or another, and that it is maybe bad to use food in this way and could become restrictive pretty fast if I’m not careful. But on the other hand, the fancy bakery is expensive and I’m a broke grad student, so it feels less likely that my view of croissants as a reward is only being impacted by diet culture. Any advice you guys have for negotiating this would be appreciated.
Corinne
I feel like it’s fine to use food as like a reward. It’s fine to have other types of rewards, too. If you want to do a little science experiment, see like how you feel. Do something else for a reward or just buy yourself a croissant for no reason and see if you’re feeling bad or weird about that.
Virginia
Yeah, that would be good data to collect. I also am like, a croissant sounds like a great thing to do when you need a reward!
Corinne
Especially a kind of low budget. I definitely use going out or special lunch as a treat.
Virginia
Yeah, or like I baked cookies yesterday because I was in the middle of a hard story but also my kids had a snow day. And yeah, that’s using food as a reward. But also food is reward, right?
Corinne
Have you ever trained a dog?
Virginia
This is a feature, not a bug and it’s how we’re made. So I don’t think there’s anything inherently wrong with it.
I think what’s wrong with it is the way diet culture, demonizes it and tells you to feel like if you have the croissant, and then you feel like you can’t eat the next meal, or you have to somehow compensate with exercise. That’s the part I’m worried about. Not the croissant. Does it set up that restrictive pattern for you where you feel like you have to atone for having rewarded yourself? You deserve the reward, and then you deserve your next meal. You don’t have to do anything different with your life in response to that.
Corinne
It sounds like they’re worried about only eating croissants when they have big feelings.
Virginia
So that’s certainly a reason to try just having croissants. Even if springing for the fancy bakery ones is not an option, maybe the frozen ones from the grocery store. Is there a budget croissant that could be your go to everyday croissant? And then you save the fancy ones? Because budget-wise, I get it. I’ve heard really good things about the Trader Joe’s chocolate filled croissants.
Corinne
Oh yes, I’ve had those. You leave them out overnight to proof.
Virginia
They’re pretty magical. Maybe you could have some delightful croissant routine that’s just how you start Mondays or whatever. And see how that feels.
Corinne
Okay, this is a long one:
I’m 38 and hair and makeup is getting weird for me. I noticed a pattern that when I’m in a season of feeling uncomfortable in my body, I highlight my naturally dark brown hair and really spend time on my makeup. When I’m feeling good in my body, I feel fine going au naturel. I’m trying to work this out. Over the years, makeup has become fun, creative artistry for me, but the genesis of it was me feeling ugly and out of place in the sixth grade and studying Kevyn Aucoin books to learn to make myself beautiful. And the hair—it feels like blonde highlights are somehow abandoning my true dark haired self. I guess I’m trying to figure out what it looks like to have a beauty routine for me somewhere in the middle. Diet culture Skipper is beauty culture, and I don’t want to feel like I have to morph into some version of a real housewife to feel okay about myself. There’s also another pressure to be as natural as possible and that the only way to be a true feminist is to reject all of it. That’s not me either! So I guess the question is, how do you find the middle?
Virginia
Okay, so first, I have to know if the Kevyn Aucoin reference flashed to you back to ninth grade the way it did for me.
Corinne
I have no idea who Kevyn Aucoin is.
Virginia
I need you to Google him immediately. We need to address this.
Corinne
Kevyn Aucoin, photographer and author. In the 90’s he was wholly responsible for the quote sculpted look of many celebrities and top models, including Whitney Houston, Cher, Madonna, blah, blah, blah…He authored several industry defining books with makeup techniques, including facial contouring, which was relatively unknown.
Virginia
Are you seeing the book covers? I want you to see the book cover.
Corinne
Oh, the cover does look familiar to me now that I’m seeing it.
Virginia
I mean, he very much transformed people. The book is all before and afters. This was before it was normal for makeup to give you new skin. Do you know what I mean? Like, he launched this whole idea that makeup should give you this like new baby skin.
Corinne
It looks very Kardashian.
Virginia
Yes. He was like the early developer of that aesthetic. I mean, I’m not a makeup historian. I worked in a bookstore when his book was a bestseller, so I used to flip through it all the time and study the faces because there are just these mind blowing transformations. And I think it really fucked us up, so here we are.
Corinne
Are you now or have you ever been into makeup?
Virginia
No. I was fascinated by him in the same way I was fascinated by makeup stories in women’s magazines as a teenager. I would sort of study like how they did it, but I never really got into executing it myself.
I have a really close friend who’s an incredible makeup artist and I see the artistry of it. Like it really is art. And also, it is in many cases—not necessarily the way she does it, but like in many cases—it is about transforming your face into this white, super thin, super contoured ideal that’s extremely racist and problematic. So there’s a lot of layers to make up. And I think enjoying the fun, creative artistry side of it is great but knowing that it starts in this kind of dark place for you is tricky.
Corinne
Using it as a tool when you’re not feeling good about yourself.
Virginia
Yeah, and I think this is very common. I mean, I don’t do it with makeup, but I do it with my hair for sure. If you are aware of your general appearance not fitting into some set of standards and that standard will never be achievable to you, you do kind of look for like, well, what can I? You know, like, “where can I fit in?” can sometimes be a compensation strategy that is understandable and also complicated.
So I can relate to a little bit of what she’s talking about. I’ve had phases in my life where it felt hard. I mean, I’ve never been a big makeup person, but I do also notice when I wear it, after a couple of weeks of wearing it regularly, I feel weird about how my face looks without it. And so then I don’t wear it for a while to get re-used to myself. I even noticed this with glasses. Now that I wear glasses all the time, when I do occasionally wear contacts I’m like, “who is she? What is my face doing?”
Corinne
That’s really funny.
Virginia
Because I think glasses can be a little bit of a mask, as well. So I think you’re you’re noticing a lot of really useful things. We are all programmed to crave beauty in certain ways, because of toxic systems. And also, you are allowed to do with your face what you want.
Corinne
Can you distinguish between stuff that you’re doing because it makes you feel good and stuff that you’re doing because you feel bad about yourself? Or is that one and the same?
Virginia
That’s an interesting question. Is there stuff where you’re like, “this I could never leave the house without.” Like, “I can never leave the house without concealer.” That feels like something to examine, versus it is fun to put on pink lipstick
Corinne
Putting stuff on your face also can feel good. Are you enjoying the smells or the sense experience? Versus being like, “my face is puffy, I need to roll it with this stick!”
Virginia
What is your narrative when you are making up your face? Are you in critical mode dissecting all your flaws? Or are you enjoying the process of going from A to B? That’s an interesting question to explore. I would say, if you haven’t already read The Unpublishable by Jessica DeFino, it’s an incredible Substack. She basically does for the beauty industry what we do for diet culture and really interrogates a lot of this. I think her work may give you more touch points for where you want to go with exploring this.
Man, Kevyn Aucoin.
Corinne
Thanks for introducing me. I’ll be spending the next 10 years trying to contour my face.
Virginia
Oh, Lord. Let’s see.
I’m starting a new job soon. It will be my first in-office job in over 10 years. I’ve long gotten rid of anything I used to wear to an office and had been living in yoga pants and sweats. Even if I still had my old clothes, my body is different. And in my 40s I’m solidly in plus size now. Usually 18/20 or 1x/2x. I’m relieved to see a lot of my old standbys: Banana Republic, J. Crew, Ann Taylor, Boden, etc, offering clothes in my current size and that’s where I’ll start. But I’m wondering if I’m sleeping on any newer brands! Would love any recommendations for office clothing. The dress code is my least favorite: business casual. So the mostly male staff can just live in khakis and polos every day like it’s a uniform, but for women, I think it’s challenging. It’s not jeans or yoga pants (sob) and it’s not full on dress pants and button up shirts. And I personally don’t want anything see through, cropped, lowcut or the like and there’s a lot of that around.
Okay, well, so neither of us dress for an office.
Corinne
But I have! And I do hate business casual.
Virginia
Yes. You’ve talked about your hatred of business casual. It is a terrible dress code.
Corinne
The brand that popped into my mind right away was Universal Standard. Also, Eileen Fisher. Sorry, not sponsored.
Virginia
We’re so repetitive. Every episode! Yeah, but they are both great for size inclusive quality pieces. They kind of hit that dress code level that you’re looking for. The Universal Standard Ponte Pant. I mean, they are awesome. I own three pairs because there was a good sale. Let’s see, though. What other brands is she sleeping on?
Corinne
I would say on the lower budget side, like Target? We both have great stuff from Target. Old Navy. And then I feel like also you could also go in a super expensive direction, right? You could look at like 11 Honore which is very high end plus sized stuff.1
Virginia
I’ve never bought anything from them.
Corinne
Oh my gosh, it’s very fancy. There are so many like smaller brands now. There’s Elizabeth Suzann…
Virginia
A brand that I got a good dress and a good turtleneck from was The Kit.
Corinne
I’ve never even heard of that.
Virginia
Dacy of Mindful Closet turned me on to them. I will say I am wearing the 2x/3x so their size inclusivity is not awesome. And their return policy was annoying. I ended up paying too much for these items because I missed the return window on returning the other sizes. But they have really cool fabrics and really cool patterns, just unusual. I have this great striped turtleneck from them that I love with my ponte pants.
So that’s a fun one. If you like bold prints, maybe Nooworks? They do a shirt dress that could definitely work, depending on like the vibe of your office.
Corinne
Yeah. What about something like Stitch Fix?
Virginia
Oh, that’s a great idea. Doing Stitch Fix will introduce you to more new brands. They have some house brands that I think you don’t really get at these other places. Plus they rotate in other stuff. And similarly, I would say searching your size on Nordstrom or Zappos, or—this is another Dacy tip—Dillards. It can be surprisingly better than you expect it to be because all of those sites carry a huge mix of brands. So you’ll just find some different stuff as opposed to the same old, same old. Dacy has found me some really great stuff from all three of those places. And I would not have put in that work myself because they are kind of exhausting to search, but there’s good stuff. Draper James dresses, that’s another good one.
All right, fun. Report back!
Corinne
Let us know what you ended up wearing.
I am someone with a skinny body and I am not infrequently asked questions along the lines of “how do you stay so thin?” This is normally asked from people in larger bodies than me. Do you have any recommendations on how to answer in a way that challenges the anti-fatness inherent in this question? How can I be a good ally in this situation? I’m normally a bit taken aback and having a sentence or two to fall back on would be great. My own perspective is that I live a lot like everyone else and genetics predispose me to have this body. I mean, the fact that my mom and sister can exchange clothes with me means something right? I’ve never actively tried anything for this frame but that answer does not feel right in the moment.
Virginia
I mean, what I want you to say, but it’s probably not socially appropriate all the time is, “would you ask a fat person how do they stay so fat?” Like, call out the fatphobia of the question. Because it is a gross question. And what it is saying is, you have this ideal body the rest of us can’t achieve and you must inherently know something about achieving thinness that you need to tell us. And what we actually understand about weight is that it is mostly genetics—you’re exactly right. This is not something you did through lifestyle or sheer will or cleverness, so expecting you to have secrets is just steeped in diet culture, steeped in bias. And if there’s a way you can call that out, do it.
Corinne
I just also hate this question because what if the answer is, “I’m ill.”
Virginia
It’s an awful question. The flip side of it is you are saying you don’t diet and you just have these genetics. But there are lots of people who are in thin bodies who are not supposed to be in thin bodies.
Corinne
Or like, I have like digestive issues.
Virginia
I’m depressed. Or, I’m getting divorced. Thanks for asking.
Corinne
Your instinct that this is a rude, weird question is spot on.
Virginia
I wonder if it’s worth just setting a boundary and saying, “I don’t think that’s helpful to talk about,” or something like, “oh, bodies are the least interesting thing to talk about. Let’s talk about something else,” could be useful language in certain moments when it’s someone where you can’t really get into it.
Corinne
I think it’s also a situation where you could be like, “Why do you ask?” or try to turn it around, like let’s take a moment of reflection here on whether that’s an appropriate thing to say to a person.
Virginia
I’m thinking of your strategy of “Oh, that’s so interesting.” That’s so interesting. An interesting question. You want to know how I stay so thin? That seems really important to you. Why is thinness so important to you?
Corinne
I also thought that the answer that the person sort of gave in the question was pretty good. “I’ve never tried anything,” right? “I think it’s just genetic. I share clothes with my mom and sister.”
Virginia
Maybe a kinder way, depending on who’s asking, would be something like, “well, bodies come in all shapes and sizes and I really don’t know.” The other thing is you really don’t know why you have this body. None of us really know why we have the bodies we have. Isn’t it amazing how we all come in different shapes and sizes? That’s the answer I would give to a kid, I think. Maybe also an adult I liked, I guess, who is still crossing a line. It’s also valid to just be like, “I don’t want to talk about my body.”
Corinne
“I don’t find that question helpful.”
Virginia
Alright, another clothing one.
I’d love to hear you talk about dressing up for special occasions, especially when there’s photography involved bringing up body feelings, like family weddings, holiday parties, etc. The pressure around looking fancy and spending money on something new and being perceived beyond the day to day level.
Corinne
Yeah, this is definitely bringing up the feelings. Where I’ve landed on this is that it’s just so much more important to me to be comfortable. I’m not going to wear anything, that I feel even slightly uncomfortable in. And if there’s a tiny twitch in the back of my mind that’s like, are these pants riding up? Or like, is this shirt too tight? I’m just not going to wear it. I’m going to find something else.
Virginia
Same. I love prioritizing your comfort above all. That is really liberating. I think it’s useful to consider, are the feelings your feelings are the feelings of the people you’re going to be seeing? A friend of mine texted me recently because she was on her way to a family event and she had decided to wear something that she was comfortable and felt good in, but she was like, “What are the odds my mom says something about what I’m wearing?” And like, “and then how do I respond?” So if you’re worrying about someone else’s response to your body, that is such a them problem. That is not a you problem. I think the whole concept of dress codes has really indoctrinated us to believe that like the way we present our bodies in certain occasions is somehow a sign of respect or it’s offensive if you show up wearing the wrong thing. There’s still a part of me that can’t wear jeans to go see a Broadway play because I just hear my British grandmother being appalled. Like, I get it. But also those roles can be taken to such an extreme and you just don’t owe anyone else in the room your body.
Corinne
Yeah. Definitely true. I was curious about the part where it says “especially when photography is involved,” and I know you’ve had some photographs taken.
Virginia
Yes. Doing author’s photos.
Corinne
Did you feel pressure to look fancy?
Virginia
I mean, for sure. Not wedding fancy, but for sure. I mean, that’s a whole other thing, because it’s also a professional thing and it’s marketing and—oh boy. Yeah. Work with Dacy at Mindful Closet if you can. She’s a lifesaver. She makes the process really fun and helps you.
Corinne
Did she help you specifically with outfits for photos?
Virginia
For the author shoot, yes.
Corinne
She’ll help people for special events?
Virginia
She has a special program where she kind of walks you through your whole closet and helps you figure out your personal style and that was like a super helpful experience. But for the author photoshoot or for the book tour, I’m hiring her more on like a one-off. Like, okay, let’s work on outfits just for this. It’s obviously privileged that I can afford to do that. Dacy is worth every penny, but it is a privilege to be able to hire someone to help like that. But I also recognize that this is where my lingering body stuff shows up, is in my feelings about what I’m going to wear to a thing. And having someone help me through that and who could really talk to me about what would feel good for me to wear and what did I not want, both comfort and aesthetics, it just took so much pressure off. It made me love everything that I wore in a way that if I had picked it out solely in my own little brain, there would have been so much more second guessing.
Corinne
Interesting. I went through this a little bit last summer with a big wedding I was going to and what I did was I bought and returned a shitload of stuff and took photos and just tried to decide based on how I felt and then how I thought the photos looked. And also, like, texted a lot of friends. If you don’t have the means to work with someone, I think there’s also a lot you can get out of just doing it yourself. Dacy also has super helpful TikToks.
Virginia
I love the idea of putting together a little panel or a person or two where you’re like, you are going to help me through this process.
The last tip I’ll give for this one is: If you have something you already own that you love, you can wear it to another event. I bought a dress that I absolutely loved for my sister’s wedding in 2021 from Tanya Taylor, which is very high end, but it was my sister’s wedding so I’m allowed to buy a fancy dress. And I love this dress! It fits me great. I had it tailored, it’s just perfect. And when we had a wedding to go to last summer, part of my brain immediately was like, “Oh, I need to dress for that wedding.” And then I was like, “What am I doing? I have an amazing dress that I spent a lot of money on that fits me great!” So I am going to wear that same dress to every wedding until my body changes or it falls apart. If you have an option, it does not matter that it got worn to one event. Even if there are some of the same people, it doesn’t matter. You can wear the same thing. I loved when Kate Baer went on her book tour and wore the same blazer to every book event. I think we need more of that energy. This is now your iconic look.
Corinne
I’m gonna ask this one.
I’m curious about navigating anti-diet culture and fat acceptance with a partner. In this case, he’s male, I’m female, he still subscribes to a baseline of healthy eating and exercise so it is quite triggering for me. I’m in a small to medium fat body and in recovery from atypical anorexia and exercise disorder. I’ve been invested in anti-diet and fat acceptance for about six years now, but my husband, though encouraging of my mental stability and happiness, still eats less than me and has some generalized rules about when to eat and what to eat. For example, if you have pizza one night, you can’t have pasta the next night, and he does some form of exercise, stationary cycling, yoga, walks most days, I’m in the process of separating from the web of exercise that has plagued me for the last 20+ years. What that looks like for me is canceling all or most forms of regular exercise, even neighborhood walks, and letting the space settle before decide what if anything I would like to do in that arena. Basically, I’m just asking what your experience of navigating all this has been like, while being with a partner who has been with you before through and after the shift from diet obsessed to ditching diet mentality. What did / does this look like for you?And any tips you can share on keeping on with figuring out your way of doing things while they keep doing their thing?
Virginia
Oh, this is such a good question. First, I just want to say congratulations on being in recovery and doing this really, really hard work. And I love that you are giving yourself space from exercise and taking care of yourself. That’s amazing. I have a thing I want your husband to read. It is a piece that ran on Autostraddle. Do you know what I’m talking about?
Corinne
The piece is called You Fat-Shamed Your Beautiful Girlfriend and the author is Heather Hogan.
Virginia
I mean. Heather. Chef’s kiss! All of this. It’s perfection. So I want you to share this piece with your husband because Heather articulates so perfectly the ways in which one partner can harm another partner over this issue. Like the ways in which your husband may not realize or be reckoning with his own fat bias, his own stuff, and like how it’s showing up in your relationship and how unfair that is for you.
Heather talks so well about how loving a person is something we do regardless of what’s happening with their body. If you can’t stand with your partner through body changes, how are you going to stand with them through real crises? Like health issues or job loss, depression, etc, you know? And it’s just a perfect piece for summing up what I want your husband to be doing for you, which it sounds like maybe he’s not quite there. And I don’t want to shame him for that. But you are doing this really hard work and it is valid to say to your partner, I need you to do some work, too.
Corinne
I don’t even know where we’re start. I feel like my experience is generally that it’s really hard to get people on board if they’re not. It’s not always possible to convince someone.
Virginia
Yeah, and it sounds like he’s got his own stuff, right? He’s got a lot of rules about what he eats. He’s pretty religious about his exercise habits.
Corinne
Have you had that conversation with him? Does he know that it’s actively upsetting for you?
Virginia
How much have you communicated this with him? And what responses are you getting? But I do think just generally being able to radically communicate where you are with this, what you need, and not feel bad about stating those needs. That kind of honesty is the only way through it, I think. Even if it may lead to some really hard conversations because he’s in a very different place than it sounds like you are.
Corinne
Yeah. Do you have other places that you recommend that people start if they’re trying to get a partner on board?
Virginia
The fact that you have a diagnosis and you’re in recovery, it just says to me that this is so serious and he should be on board with your recovery. So maybe it’s a question of like, “I really appreciate how much you support this in the big picture, but in our day-to-day lives, there are ways that your behavior creates something I have to deal with.”
If I knew that some daily routine of mine was causing harm to my partner, I would want to know, so I could assess whether I needed to maintain that routine. And most likely, if I love this partner and I’m supporting their recovery, I do not need to maintain that routine. But if that’s hard for me to give up, then that suggests that some stuff I have to look at because I would argue that your partner’s mental health is more important than you not eating pizza and pasta two nights in a row! It sounds like a tricky one.
We’re sending you a lot of love. And I hope that this leads to some good conversations for you guys.
Corinne
Okay, I’m gonna read the last question.
I miss Comfort Food so much and the awesome camaraderie that Amy and Virginia have. Will Amy be a guest on Burnt Toast anytime soon?
So I’m trying not to take this one personally.
Virginia
Um, I think Corinne and I have awesome camaraderie, you guys.
Corinne
I mean, I also like Amy/Virginia camaraderie.
Virginia
This was such a funny question to me. It’s one of those things where I forget that people don’t know that Amy and I talk every day. Y’all aren’t in those conversations.
Corinne
People just miss being in on your conversations.
Virginia
I’m texting with her right now. What do you need to know? And she’s often in the comments! I mean, in last month’s Ask Us Anything, she was an accidental guest star with the tequila story.
I don’t have her scheduled for an episode, I will get her scheduled for an episode. She has an awesome cookbook coming out in the fall, so I’ll definitely have her on so we can hear all about that. Amy, if you’re listening, we will sort that out. But Amy is pretty busy running the world, guys.
Corinne
She has a really good Tiktok.
Virginia
She has an amazing Tiktok, she has an amazing Instagram, she has an amazing blog. She is just killing it at all of the stuff she is doing. I am so super proud of her.
Butter
Virginia
Should we do butter?
Corinne
Yeah, let’s do butter.
Virginia
What do you have?
Corinne
Let me start with a question. Do you know who Glennon Doyle is?
Virginia
I mean, yes?
Corinne
Okay. Well I didn’t. Like, I’ve heard about her, but I was just like, she’s probably not for me.
Virginia
I haven’t been a super regular listener of her podcast, but I have gotten pulled in when there’s been different guests, like her Indigo Girls episode. I was in tears.
Corinne
Now I’m going to interrupt you because my recommendation is her podcast. But specifically—and like I literally have only listened to three episodes—but someone recommended to me the episode where she has Sonya Renee Taylor on.
Virginia
I have that one downloaded!
[Post-recording note from Viginia: And then I listened and was equally blown away and wrote this.]
Corinne
It’s so good. I started listening and was like, “Whoa, backup, I need some background info.” And so I guess what happened—and I don’t know if you’re all up to date on this—is she has recently been diagnosed with anorexia.
Virginia
Yes.
Corinne
So that’s the background. The Sonya Renee Taylor episode is amazing. And then they also just put out one that’s an update on her treatment and what’s happening. It’s also just really good. Everyone else already knows this, why am I talking about it?! She just has a really interesting way of talking about it. Specifically in the recent like recovery episode update, there was a part where she talks about going through her closet and realizing that basically all her clothes have been policing her body size because they’re tiny jeans and stuff that there’s not really room to expand in. That really blew my mind and has me thinking a lot about stuff. So anyways, I recommend Glennon Doyle that everyone already knows about.
Virginia
I mean, she is brilliant. And I really give her a ton of credit for this new arc in this podcast now. Because I think it’s a conversation that like—God, it’s so hard to talk about your own recovery and just her willingness to be vulnerable. And it helps put into context some stuff she’s done in the past. Like, I think she’s just like doing a lot of reckoning with all of this in a way that’s super important. And yeah, the Sonya Renee Taylor episode, I literally have it downloaded to listen to while I’m cooking dinner and ignoring my children tonight.
Corinne
Good luck.
Virginia
And if you’re an Indigo Girls fan, her interview with the Indigo Girls, you will sob throughout. Amy and Emily just talking about addiction and friendship and life and it’s just like the most beautiful conversation.
Alright, my butter is my new snow boots. They are Bogs snow boots. This is a classic mom thing where you buy your kids the really nice thing and then you don’t buy yourself the nice thing. So I have bought the Bogs snow boots for my children for several years. They are a pricey brand of snow boot, but I have two girls. So whatever I buy the older one, we get multiple winters out of these things. And they are such well made snow boots. You can pull them on really easily. They’re totally waterproof and they’re comfy. They’re just great. I’m now telling every parent listening to this podcast something they already know about Bogs. But my butter is that I bought myself some after many seasons of just wearing the same crappy snow boots that weren’t comfortable and had laces. I hate shoes with laces. I don’t have time in my life for laces. And now I’m just the happiest when I’m taking the dog out or going out to the school bus in the morning. They’re gonna be great in the garden! I got olive green ones because they felt spring garden-y me, too. So I think I’ll be wearing them in like the muddy early spring garden days.
Corinne
They’re very cute.
Virginia
Yep, they’re cute. They have like a flowery pattern. Some of the patterns are not great. You have to you have to vet carefully, but I like the pair I got. (I also got the shorter height, which is better for wide calves.)
Corinne
Are they comfortable for walking?
Virginia
I haven’t taken them on a hike or a walk walk. They’re definitely comfortable walking around my yard. They feel like kind of memory foam-ish inside. You know what I mean? There’ll be fine for running errands. I just don’t know if you would want to hike in them. They’re great, though. So if you’ve been buying your kids something really nice, and it also comes in your size and would be useful to you, get it for yourself! Because you deserve that.
Alright, Corinne, thank you so much. This was awesome. Just remind folks where they can find you.
Corinne
You can find me on Instagram at @Selfiefay or at @selltradeplus.
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The Burnt Toast podcast is produced and hosted by me, Virginia Sole-Smith. You can follow me on Instagram and Twitter at @v_solesmith.
Our transcripts are edited and formatted by Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, an Instagram account where you can buy and sell plus size clothing.
The Burnt toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.
Our theme music is by Jeff Bailey and Chris Maxwell
And Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.
Thanks for listening and supporting independent anti-diet journalism!
Note from Corinne: Apparently since the last time I checked the 11 Honore website, they have been acquired by Dia & Co and it looks very different! But Dia & Co is also a great place to look.